View source for Talk:Jan Żaryn

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== Statements about Żaryn - KOD ==
{{disdis|VikingDrummer|spi=NoCal100|lta=NoCal100}}
@[[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] - Let’s start with this one:
:{{tq|In a 2016 interview to Nasz Dziennik, a clerical daily newspaper, Żaryn stated that calls of the Committee for the Defence of Democracy (KOD) to engage in massive civil disobedience were tantamount to advocating overturn of the Polish state and were approaching dangerously towards the betrayal of the national interests.}}
What's this all about? Sourced to the interview with Żaryn seems to be original research of whoever entered this into the article. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 19:14, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
:Views of a person, summarized from their interview are valid sources, if the wikipedian did the job with due diligence and if there are no neutral sources to do this summarizing. I see this in Wikipedia all the time: the whole philosophical books are summarized by a wikipedian. There must be a clearly visible line: summarizing someone's view ''in a neutral or biased way.'' [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]])
<s>::The interview source should be replaced, there is [https://oko.press/zaryn-obywatelskie-nieposluszenstwo-zdrada-wczesniej-wzywal-niego-pis/ independent coverage]. Zaryn's claim was also fact checked as [https://oko.press/wypowiedzi/zaryn-nieposluszenstwo-obywatelskie-to-zdrada/ FALSE].[[User:VikingDrummer|VikingDrummer]] ([[User talk:VikingDrummer|talk]]) 20:08, 7 June 2021 (UTC)</s><small> sock puppet of banned user-<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 13:27, 11 June 2021 (UTC)</small>
::: OKO press is not a good source for BLP’s. <s>Second it talks entirely about something else</s> - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 20:15, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
<s>::::OKO is fine. And the [https://oko.press/zaryn-obywatelskie-nieposluszenstwo-zdrada-wczesniej-wzywal-niego-pis/ piece] is about Zaryn's interview in 2016 to Nasz Dziennik in which he called KOD civil disobedience  as "rubbing against betrayal".[[User:VikingDrummer|VikingDrummer]] ([[User talk:VikingDrummer|talk]]) 20:24, 7 June 2021 (UTC)</s> <small>sock puppet of banned user-<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 13:27, 11 June 2021 (UTC)</small>
:::::No, no it's not. And you know this.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 20:33, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::Putting aside the question of whether summarizing primary sources is WP:OR or not, which part of the interview is this suppose to summarize? And why this particular part? In that interview he says lots of stuff about KOD. He accuses them of "protecting" former members of the Communist Secret Police for example (like this Col. Mazgula guy). Most of the interview is about the fact that he, like many Poles, is kinda not happy about former Communist Secret Police (for non-Poles reading this, basically the Polish version of [[Stasi]]) receiving high pensions while their victims were repressed and oppressed.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 20:41, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
:::{{tq|Zaryn's claim was also fact checked as FALSE}} -- bull. This is a typical abuse of "fact-checkers", which begin to produce more fake facts than original [[fake news]] websites. They are not arguing against ''facts'' presented by Zaryn, and their all-caps shouting "FALSE" merely means that his views disagree with theirs. And I fail to see why their opinion is better: who the heck are they? [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 23:24, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
::: I looked up the interview and I see that our wikipedia text is a good piece of [[quoting out of context]]. Oko insinuates that Zaryn is confusing "state" with "gov't  (panstwo vs. wladza). Reading the interview: he is not. Here is the whole piece, summarized: <<|Protesters also appeal to police [to join them], which is close to the treason of national interests. In democratic states police is supposed to be apolitical; they are supposed to guard the interests of the state. Therefore this appeal [to police] amounts to the destruction of the state.|>> -- And I have to agree that there is a grain of truth. Our wikipedia defines " state is a polity under a system of governance with a monopoly on force." And we did see what happened with the [[USSR]] when the gov't lost the monopoly on force: the state collapsed! In other words, in this part he speaks not against the disobedience ''per se'', but about the attempt to involve the police. Whether he is right or not, OKO is FALSE by boomerang. (the exact same "sleight of hand" is in the source cited in pl-wp) Not to say that higher in the interview he expresses an opinion that <<|the protests are the result of the frustration of the losers in the democratic elections who could not win in a "normal democratic procedure".|>> - I would disagree with him, but I would not call this opinion scandalous, nor particularly original or prominent. 
::: '''Therefore''' I am in favor of '''throwing out''' this piece, because '''(a)''' it is unfaithful summary;  '''(b)''' the issue is neither particularly controversial (if read in context), and '''(c)''' nor a major point of his views. The major point would be a general statement of his disapproval of KOD. On the other hand, summarizing ''the whole'' answer (about the call to protests) the way I piecewise outlined above would look reasonable. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 23:57, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
::::Oko press is a highly partisan tabloid something like a cross between The Jacobin and The Intercept back when it was under Glenn Greenwald’s control. It’s primary if not sole purpose is to publish hysterical hit pieces on politicians they don’t like. If you want a right wing analogy, they’re somewhere between The Federalist and Breitbart. Not outright “fake news” but skirting that line pretty close by manipulating quotes and presenting stuff out of context.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 16:57, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::What information have they manipulated and what have they presented out of context? Can you give some examples? You can't just say a source is unreliable because you do not like it and make claims like this without any proof. [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 17:51, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::Lembit Stan just gave an example right above.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 18:21, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::I honestly cannot understand this aversion to Oko.press. In Italy it is widely quoted by the largest center-right[https://www.ilgiornale.it/news/mondo/pedofilia-film-chiesto-aiuto-papa-indagini-su-vescovo-1863663.html][https://www.ilfoglio.it/esteri/2020/10/15/news/sul-fronte-delle-battaglie-culturali-d-europa-1193283/] and center-left[https://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2020/06/26/news/le_mani_sulla_tv_la_campagna_dei_populisti_macchia_la_polonia-301068734/][https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2021/04/21/convenzione-di-istanbul-ecco-chi-in-ue-vuole-demolire-la-carta-contro-violenza-sulle-donne-e-perche-non-preoccupano-solo-turchia-e-polonia/6163715/] newspapers. Quite unlikely to be an unreliable source.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 18:19, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::I don’t know about Italian sources. I do know that all they publish is opinion pieces and most of them are hit pieces and that the tone is extremely hysterical and over the top.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 18:21, 8 June 2021 (UTC)


{{collapse top|title=KOD}}
2. KOD: ''– W tej sytuacji z jednej strony te środowiska i ludzie wymienieni przez pana redaktora nie potrafią się pogodzić z demokratycznym werdyktem Narodu Polskiego, a jednocześnie z drugiej strony przekraczają granice, za którymi trudno się doszukiwać dialogu. Ponieważ ten apel dotyczy np. polskich obywateli, którzy mają zapisane w swoich obowiązkach wynikających z zawodu, jaki uprawiają, a więc wprost lojalności wobec interesu własnego – czyli polskiego państwa. Z tego, co wiem, ten apel jest adresowany także do służb mundurowych, a to już jest zjawisko, które ociera się o zdradę interesów narodowych. Ponieważ w tradycji demokratycznego państwa istnieje założenie o apolityczności służb, które mają chronić nasze bezpieczeństwo – służb, które mają bronić najżywotniejszych interesów państwa polskiego. Jeżeli środowiska KOD-u apelują o to, żeby nieposłuszeństwo było powszechne, to znaczy, że apelują o to, żeby nie było państwa polskiego.''

Translating: In this situation, on the one hand, these organisations [from the opposition] and the people whom Mr Editor has named [Wałęsa, [[Władysław Frasyniuk|Frasyniuk]], [[Grzegorz Schetyna|Schetyna]], [[Ryszard Petru|Petru]] - my note] have not been able to come to terms with the democratic verdict of the Polish People, while on the other, they cross the lines beyond which aiming for dialogue is difficult. That is because the proclamation [of KOD] concerns e.g. the citizens of Poland, who have written in their duties of the job they have, that is, loyalty towards their interests - i.e. of the Polish state. From what I know, the proclamation is addressed i.a. to the uniformed services, and that is a phenomenon that dangerously approaches the betrayal of national interests. That is because in the tradition of a democratic state, there is an assumption that the services that are tasked with protecting us are apolitical - the services which are to protect the vital interests of the Polish state. If the organisations affiliated with KOD ask the people to adopt universal civil disobedience, that means they are arguing for [the dissolution] of the Polish state.
{{collapse bottom}}
From which text I make the conclusions as presented in the sentence. Per WP:PSTS it would be advisable to substitute the resource, but again the one that analyses it is oko.press, which is contested, while quoting such large passages might be, well, inconvenient.

PS. The section is named "'''Views '''and controversy" - you may want to divide it into Views, and Controversy, but the Polish article did not make such differentiation (it only said "controversy" where some of the fragments were clearly views that might be considered controversial - or at least the sourcing did not indicate a scandal). As concerns the quotes, I believe I have summarised their main points, which is risky but could nevertheless be handled properly. At the time, as it was late in the night, I was tired of looking for new sources, but I can find some more now. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 22:33, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

On the second one, the obvious issue is that particular statement by Zaryn is NOT referring to "KOD". You had to add that in yourself. See how you " [of KOD]" in there. Rather he is referring specifically to the individuals mentioned, who signed some letter (Walesa, Frasyniuk, etc.). I don't know if these are all KOD people. Who's Walesa affiliated with these days? Not sure? Himself, maybe? Anyway, that part is OR

More troubling is the fact that the text in Wikipedia grossly misrepresents the source/interview. It claims that Zaryn says that KOD's (or whoever) call for "civil disobedience" were "tantamount to advocating overturn of the Polish state and were approaching dangerously towards the betrayal of the national interests". NO. What Zaryn says is that calling ON THE POLICE AND THE ARMY to disobey the democratically elected government of Poland is "tantamount etc etc"

Which is far less controversial. Imagine if Trump called on the US Armed Forces, the National Guard and the police forces across country to engage in "disobedience" against democratically elected President Biden. And some democratic politician/historian stated in an interview that this was "advocating overturn of US's democratic election". Guess what? That democratic politician would be exactly right.

The text that is being put into Wikipedia alters what Zaryn says to make it look like something fringe or extreme, but all the dude is saying is that if certain politicians are advocating for the armed forces to engage in "disobedience" against duly elected government then you don't really believe in democracy.

BTW, I met Frasyniuk (one of the people Zaryn is criticizing here) when I was a kid when he hid out, on the run from the communist authorities, in our apartment.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 02:51, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

:Part 2. {{tq|On the second one, the obvious issue [...] part is OR}}. 
:Come on, you could do better than that - it's just I didn't want to manually translate the whole quote. The question specifically asks: {{tq|Among others, Wałęsa, Frasyniuk, Schetyna and Petru have signed a proclamation that urges people to deny obedience to the legally elected government in Poland. What, in your opinion, are [these] call[s] to mass protests, particularly on 13 December*?}} * - Martial law in Poland anniversary. All four names appear [https://koduj24.pl/odezwa-do-wszystkich-polakow/ on the document] and the mass protests were scheduled on 13 December, so they clearly talk about KOD and its proclamation and they understand each other on that, even if they don't state it explicitly. The interviews do not exist in a vacuum, they discuss contemporary events, which at that time could be understood without uttering "proclamation of KOD" - it was all in the news.
:{{tq|More troubling [...] then you don't really believe in democracy.}} Admittedly it did so. oko.press and Żaryn interpret the declaration from different political standpoints: Żaryn in the literalist sense of the word (civil disobedience of the military -> eliminating of one of the pillars of govt -> anarchy), while Leszczyński looks on that from the other perspective (civil disobedience as a means to defend civil rights). These are two parallel perspectives and are affected by political bias here and not reliability issues (I would say that, in a way, they are talking past each other). Since obviously a person affiliated with PiS is against KOD, I believe the sentence could be dropped altogether per Lembit Staan's suggestion of it not being notable by itself, and oko.press is the only source discussing the interview. This might be the proper conclusion. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 03:49, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
:::What other links? The text being inserted is based on a single primary source. If there’s some other source please provide it.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 05:35, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
:::And on the 2nd part, am I understanding correctly that we can simply drop this part?<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 05:37, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
::::Correct. After analysis, I came to the conclusion it was not salvageable. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 08:39, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::Thanks! Ok, see, it can be difficult and contentious but we can work it out. In the first part, if we can change the wording appropriately then we'll have taken care of that as well.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 13:19, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
<s>::'''I agree with Szmenderowiecki''', the arguments against are empty and with no merit other than disliking the content.[[User:VikingDrummer|VikingDrummer]] ([[User talk:VikingDrummer|talk]]) 05:26, 8 June 2021 (UTC)</s> <small>sock puppet of banned user-<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 13:27, 11 June 2021 (UTC)</small>
:::Your comment is content-free. There’s a detailed explanation of what is wrong with the text being inserted. It simply is not backed by sources. And this is a BLP. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 05:33, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

===Jedwabne===
Moved to [[Talk:Jan Żaryn#Jedwabne 2|Jedwabne 2]]

===Outspoken views===
{{disdis|VikingDrummer|spi=NoCal100|lta=NoCal100}}
Now, where this --> {{tq|Jan Żaryn is known for his outspoken views on the interaction between Jews and other nationalities.<sup>[''[[wikipedia:Please clarify|clarification needed]]'']</sup>}} comes from? - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 00:02, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
: See [[User_talk:Lembit_Staan#Jan_Żaryn_edit_-_clarification here]]. I didn't throw it out right away, because it looks harmless per WP:BLP, and maybe it will attract an attention of someone knows something. But if not expanded in 1-2 days, it is out. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 00:15, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
::I believe this is where François Robere's sources should enter if approved. I propose to remove the sentence pending RfC resolution. If approved, we should use the sources provided by Robere. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 04:01, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
:::As it stands now, the RfC is basically a cluster fuck of brand new accounts brigading in violation of an ArbCom restriction. Oh and it’s also not neutrally worded. I doubt we’ll get much resolution out of it. Better path is to try and work out a compromise here and then if there’s still disagreement redo the RfC properly.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 05:39, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
<s>:::This is a summary of sources covering these outspoken views. Zaryn was a bit in the spotlight after [https://www.timesofisrael.com/polish-senator-calls-for-israeli-ambassadors-expulsion/ calling for the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador who complained about rising antisemitism in Poland]. Looking at his media profile, he gets spurts of coverage for his outrageous statements and not much else.[[User:VikingDrummer|VikingDrummer]] ([[User talk:VikingDrummer|talk]]) 05:29, 8 June 2021 (UTC)</s> <small>sock puppet of banned user-<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 13:27, 11 June 2021 (UTC)</small>
:::: @[[User:VikingDrummer|VikingDrummer]] are you aware that [[WP:BLP]] applies to all material about living persons anywhere on Wikipedia, including '''talk pages''', edit summaries, user pages, images, categories, lists, article titles and drafts? - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 11:39, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

== Current issues 10.6.21 ==
{{disdis|VikingDrummer|spi=NoCal100|lta=NoCal100}}
- The section on the Catholic church and his general Senate tenure is needed. I won't be able to write it soon.
- The section on his political/historical views will probably see some controversy. Reverted three deletions:
:Deletion with Znak source: the Znak source says: "Niestety, tym razem tak nie uczyniono. Kardynał Stanisław Dziwisz, powołując się na opinię Jana Żaryna i ją akceptując[8], skarcił wydawnictwo Znak za opublikowanie książki Grossa." [Unfortunately, it didn't happen this time. Cardinal Stanisław Dziwisz, citing Jan Żaryn's opinion and accepting it, criticised Znak for publishing a book of Gross's] (Footnote 8 says: [8] „Dopiero w (..) lustrze stosunków polsko-komunistycznych można przeglądać inne, wrażliwe tematy, takie jak relacje polsko-żydowskie” [Only in (...) the mirror of the Polish-communist relations can we look on other contentious topics, like the Polish-Jewish relations.] That source means that Żaryn is of the same opinion.
:Deletion about Jasiewicz: Żaryn's reaction is important here. Jasiewicz's article is only an introduction to the topic.
:Deletion about Pruchnik: Comment: "Nothing antisemitic with beating Judas, unless you identify Jews with Judas" - well, that one specifically was described by several sources as suspiciously close to a Jew (including the original article in ''Ekspres Jarosławski'' - the anatomical features were made prominent). Plus the reaction of Żaryn to that event is notable, because it sparked itself some controversy. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 04:39, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
<s>::[[User:Szmenderowiecki]], thank you for the wonderfully expanded and sourced views section. Your work with Polish language sources is invaluable.[[User:VikingDrummer|VikingDrummer]] ([[User talk:VikingDrummer|talk]]) 06:02, 10 June 2021 (UTC)</s> <small>sock puppet of banned user-<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 13:30, 11 June 2021 (UTC)</small>
@[[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] I've read the sources (and I believe Lembit Staan did too) and text you introduced into the article. I agree with @[[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] that it's redundant in encyclopedic text. Would you mind <u>reverting yourself</u>[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_Żaryn&diff=prev&oldid=1027811260&diffmode=source] and try to reach a consensus here for that text to be included? - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 06:27, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

:Errm, that "redundancy" comment was marked as the other one, which I have not edited and left as is. But OK, I'll leave the text on hold. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 08:46, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
:: Thanks, editors, please comment on this text[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_Żaryn&diff=next&oldid=1027811260&diffmode=source] below. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 09:07, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


===Relations between Jews and Poles ===
article:{{tq|Żaryn believes that the relations between Jews and Poles can only be seen through the lens of the relations between Poles and [[Communism|communists]].}}
*That's complete bullshit. Żaryn plentifully speaks about catholic church having effect on this. "Prawdziwy Polak to katolik". If you don't know this, you better not edit political polish subjects, especially conservative ones. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]])
::The "real Pole is a Catholic" attitude is already mentioned, with the source of his review of an exposition of WWII museum of Gdańsk, where he states that in plaintext. But the question is the source itself. Whether he elsewhere speaks on that being connected with his view of Polishness is not really relevant, because the text is written as it is. And actually, it is not relevant to the edit at all. "Polak-katolik" and "Żydokomuna" are two separate topics.
::If you believe the author was plainly wrong on that account, or has under-/misstated something - whatever you say, but I'm not here to analyse whether he is right or wrong, I only report what RS say (and Znak is one of the best RS that Poland has). Also, the author does not mention Żaryn anywhere else. In short, read the [https://www.miesiecznik.znak.com.pl/6432008ks-romuald-jakub-weksler-waszkinelantysemityzm-wobec-zydow/ source]. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 11:02, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
:::{{tq|I only report what RS say}} - one of our jobs as wwikipedians is to evaluate the quality of sources. "Polak is katolik" is an explanation why the phrase in question is bullshit whoever wrote it. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:40, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
::::I ask you again: have you read the source? You demonstrate once again that either you haven't or you try to introduce fragments that are not pertinent to the source. Either way, that's not a good thing.
::::Evaluation of sources: Znak is one of the best sources Poland has. It does represent a Catholic standpoint, but otherwise it is very good. 
::::To be sure, Weksler-Waszkinel doesn't talk about "Polak-katolik" but at the very end, not when talking about Żaryn and anyway framing it as a controversial stereotype. I urge you once again to read the source(s), probably use Ctrl+F if you are unsure, and stop asserting something that does not pertain to the source. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 18:01, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
::::: And I am answering you again: the statement {{tq|Zaryn believes... can only be seen through}} is provably false regardless who wrote it. I don't care whether the author is mistaken or quoted out of context or sloppily mistranslated. And I am not introducing anything: I am deleting everything. :-) [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 18:07, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::Then you might want to read [[WP:PRESERVE]]. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 18:24, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::And yes, "the statement Zaryn believes... can only be seen through is provably false regardless who wrote it" is opinionating on the subject based on your own views and not what others say.
::::::Besides, if it is "provably" false - prove it. :) [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 18:27, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::: "opinionating"? huh? I explained why it false, right at the top. WP:BLP trumps WP:PRESERVE. The onus is on you to defend the statements you want to keep. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 19:07, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::::If you read onus carefully, you will see in a footnote that "Once an editor has provided any source he or she believes, in good faith, to be sufficient, then any editor who later removes the material has an obligation to articulate specific problems that would justify its exclusion from Wikipedia (e.g. why the source is unreliable; the source does not support the claim; undue emphasis; unencyclopedic content; etc.)", which I have done from the very beginning.
::::::::You have tried to assert that Żaryn cannot be arguing for what is written in that sentence because he "plentifully speaks about catholic church having effect on this". He indeed has repeatedly underlined their role in saving Jews, but that is ANOTHER and PARALLEL topic, because the book being discussed in the source is Jan Tomasz Gross's "Strach. Antysemityzm w Polsce '''tuż po wojnie'''. Historia moralnej zapaści" (what is boldened means "immediately after the war"). You can see the quote provided just below the headline, which directly says what is written in the sentence. I struggle to understand why would you want to make such a long discussion when you have the quote in Polish from the source, my translation to English (so that everyone could understand what is going on) and you could have reached for the source you have deleted, because I have identified the edit that you have questioned and there was 1 (one) source in it - paste the URL and there you go, analyse the source and tell what is the specific problem about it, just as has been done with Oko.press. Just removing a source "because I have read somewhere else he said other stuff", not analysing if it excludes each other, is at the very least wasting my time and resources, which I absolutely do not appreciate.
::::::::Besides, if you read [[WP:PRESERVE]], it says "special care" applies for BLPs, but it doesn't mean that the guideline does not apply at all, as you try to say. It would also be useful to see next time which part of BLP (or any other policy) it allegedly violates, because BLP itself is 5000 words long and that takes some time to guess what could probably make you feel not OK about the fragment. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 19:55, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::{{tq| You can see the quote provided just below the headline}} - OK, maybe I am looking at a wrong ref. [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_%C5%BBaryn&oldid=1027811260 this version] says:  "Żaryn believes that the relations between Jews and Poles can only be seen through the lens of the relations between Poles and communists.[49]" Here 49 is [https://www.miesiecznik.znak.com.pl/6432008ks-romuald-jakub-weksler-waszkinelantysemityzm-wobec-zydow/], which says nothing of what you say. Nevertheless, {{tq|but that is ANOTHER and PARALLEL topic}} - so what? The disputed sentence speaks of the ''overall'' position of Zaryn about Jews vs. Poles. Therefore please provide the correct ref and the quote from it. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 21:21, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

{{od}}

I suggest pausing this discussion until Żaryn can be quoted from a primary source rather than a tertiary one, and either of these might be suitable: [https://archiwum.rp.pl/artykul/746309.html][https://www.worldcat.org/title/woko-strachu-dyskusja-o-ksiazce-jana-t-grossa/oclc/244821037] [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 20:46, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
: We are not discussing Jan Gross here. I have no objections for the text about Jan Gross. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 21:21, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
:: In my understanding his comment was in relation to Gross's ''Fear'', as was the open letter that cites it. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 05:54, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

===Deletion about Jasiewicz===
talk: {{tq|Deletion about Jasiewicz: Żaryn's reaction is important here.}} -- no it not. Also chaotic [[WP:SYNTH]]. Also it is ridiculous that here you wrote about Jaciewicz more than in his own bio. And by the way, what was the reaction and to what? [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 09:27, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
:I don't see any of the accusations. {{tq|chaotic WP:SYNTH}}. Where? I don't see any at all. All three sources quote the same thing he wrote. {{tq|Also it is ridiculous that here you wrote about Jaciewicz more than in his own bio.}} It is the problem of Jasiewicz's bio being too short and not the event being not notable enough. I didn't know how much was written about Jasiewicz in his article, and neither did I care. {{tq|And by the way, what was the reaction and to what?}} Not fully understanding your question, but I'll try to answer the best I can. Jasiewicz was fired in mid-April; in late May, some conservative historians including Żaryn have signed a petition to restore him. This (both the article and the letter) drew criticism from some media outlets including the ones I cited in the article. But it clearly shows his attitude towards what was largely considered an anti-Semitic piece. Not to say he is an anti-Semite, but the reader will make their own conclusions. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 11:02, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
::And this is called [[WP:SYNTH]] and tendentious editing in our book (putting two things side by side "so that readers draw conclusion").  [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:47, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

===Judas===
talk: {{tq| as suspiciously close to a Jew}} - do you realize how stupid it sounds? Also you put it into section "Holocaust and anti-Semitism". I don't see who says it is an example of Zaryn's anti-Semitism. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 09:27, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
:The section is not to allege that he is anti-Semite, the section is i.a. about his reactions to what are considered anti-Semitic attitudes; or at least the name of the section isn't intended to imply anti-Semitism (I provisionally grouped it as "the Holocaust and anti-Semitism" because the content concerned either of the topics, but I'm perfectly fine with the name you chose). {{tq|do you realize how stupid it sounds?}} If I didn't read the sources, I would, but since I did and I saw that a large part of media that reported on Pruchnik interpreted the effigy to be looking like a Jew, no, I don't as the question presupposes it being a stupid phrase while in fact it was supported by RS, so it stops being stupid. This question, btw, only proves that you have '''not''' read the sources supporting text before deleting whole paragraphs, so the next time I'd kindly suggest you spend a few more minutes on that.
:As for who suggests it was anti-Semitic: gazeta.pl source did. {{tq|Z kolei Żaryn, zamiast przypomnieć sobie o ideach patrona ruchu, który współtworzył, woli ze swoich okopów rzucać oskarżeniami o niszczenie wizerunku Polski i bronić antysemickiego obrzędu.}} But that is an aside, because it is not intended to imply his being an anti-Semite. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 11:02, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
::[[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] - Do you realize that this BLP article already doesn't look like an encyclopedic article anymore but more like the collection of trivial details of everything negative one can possibly find googling the internet? Some are not even negative but plain silly... like; who cares about what somebody somewhere said or wrote? People say or write many things...no; this is becoming ridiculous. And it looks like more such things are being advocated to be added. Like, will that ever end? Or will we have 3/4 of the article about what someone wrote something where Żaryn is mentioned? Do you know what such pages are called? - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 11:36, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
:::{{tq|Do you realize that this BLP article already doesn't look like an encyclopedic article anymore but more like the collection trivial details of everything negative one can possibly find googling the internet?}} The question is double-barreled. If I answer no, you presuppose that it is already an attack page but I am not aware of it, but I strenously disagree with the formulation of it being a [[WP:ATP]], or that it somehow violates the spirit of BLP, or in particular, [[WP:IMPARTIAL]].
:::In fact, the problem with Żaryn is that I struggle to find much positive coverage about him in RS or in scholarship. The sources which are likely to support him (Nasz Dziennik, wPolityce, w Sieci etc.) can hardly be considered reliable; while scholarly sources I had access to (and that went up to the tenth page of Google Scholar), were mostly negative about his coverage. You are wrong to believe I wasn't looking for positive coverage about him, it is that I haven't seen it because it physically hardly exists in the sources I have read.
:::The definition of an attack page is "an attack page is a page, in any namespace, that exists primarily to disparage or threaten its subject; or biographical material that is entirely negative in tone and unsourced or poorly sourced."
:::First, the article is very well-sourced to either RS or his interviews, which I quote as he originally said it, so it automatically is not an attack page. Second, his views are discussed without distortion, as he says in the interviews or in the books (as quoted by researchers). As a historian and a person widely recognised as a proponent of the current historical policy, his views on Poland, Jews, and virtually any contentious subject related to Poland are relevant, so they are mentioned as is, as he says to the interviewers. I can't help it that Żaryn is a controversial figure and makes controversial statements that are reported by RS, and I simply do the job of summing up the resources I have. However, I deny any allegations that I am trying to cast him in negative light, and, absent evidence, I will treat any similar claims as casting [[WP:ASPERSIONS]].
:::As for this quote {{tq|And it looks like more such things are being advocated to be added.}} No one is advocating here for anything, and particularly absent any evidence of my (or any other person's) illegal POV pushing and non-cooperation to fix the issue, I see it as [[WP:POVRAILROAD#False_narratives|POVRAILROAD]]. Sorry. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 12:34, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
::::[[tl;dr]]. Szmenderowiecki, just stop it. Several people are repeatedly telling you that you are wrong about what is allowed per [[WP:BLP]] and you continue to misrepresent sources. If you don't see it, you better step back and do not edit things you are passionate about. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:55, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::Again you cast aspersions, perhaps you should be the one to "step back"? You do not present any "misrepresentation" of the source, you merely claim it exists while the other editor actively disproves your claims.
:::::[[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] has done a great job in translating the article and providing sources for it, your claims that it violates [[WP:BLP]] are unsubstantiated. [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 17:17, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::: Thank you for reminding me about yourself. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 17:24, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

{{od}}

Aside: I don't think there's any doubt that the "Judas trial" includes/is based on antisemitic motifs, but whether and how we mention Żaryn's response to it is a different question. In any case the discussion should be based on [[WP:POLICY]], and editors shouldn't be admonished for making suggestions that comply with it. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 13:03, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
:There is no doubt that the "Judas trial" is based on religious motifs. Jesus Christ is a Jewish hero in Christianity. Just the same, Judas is a Jewish villain in Chrisitanity. And if Zaryn argued this way (and I may well believe he did this so), there is nothing antiSemitic in his view. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:36, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
:: Yes, [[Antisemitism in Christianity|antisemitic motifs]]. What Żaryn argued (implicitly or explicitly) is that it's an acceptable custom;[https://wyborcza.pl/7,75398,24691124,w-radiowej-trojce-o-biciu-judasza-w-pruchniku-zwyczaj-jak.html] that Jewish critics are trying to insult and malign Polish Catholics,[https://www.fronda.pl/a/prof-zaryn-dla-frondy-to-proba-obrazania-polskich-katolikow-przez-srodowiska-zydowskie,125764.html] and should mind their own business;[https://natemat.pl/270829,jan-zaryn-z-pis-o-spaleniu-kukly-judasza-w-pruchniku-zaskakujacy-komentarz] and that drawing attention to such events reflects a "wish to destroy [Catholic Poles'] faith".[https://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/7,114884,24692918,senator-jan-zaryn-o-sadzie-nad-judaszem-prosze-sie-nie-wtracac.html] [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 18:25, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
:::Yes, [[Burning of Judas]] is an acceptable practice in conservative Catholic  places. Yes, it may be considered to be antiSemitic by some (okay, by many). Yes, antiSemites use it as a pretext to demonstrate antiSemitism. Please explain why this episode must be in the article. Your "Zaryn argued" is a non-argument. Over his life "Zaryn argued" a dozen of books and thousands of articles. The analysis of those as a "[[corpus]]" by scholarly sources should be the base of a coherent description of his views, not random hype by political opponents. If there is none then probably his views are not that encyclopedic. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 20:06, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
:::: I'm not saying it ''must'' be in the article, I'm saying there's enough of an argument for inclusion that one should be able to suggest it without being attacked. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 00:20, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

==Long-standing pattern of tendentious editing==
I've been wasting lots of time either fixing the texts being added recently and unfortunately deleting the unfixable. I've spent an inordinate time double checking the source cited, only to find that they've been frequently misrepresented. I have no idea whether this is a "good-faith" misunderstanding of our policies about sourcing and [[WP:NOR]] or a deliberate POV-pushing/dirt-digging accompanied with ignorance in may aspects of Poland.  I am more and more inclined to file a complaint for a ban of editing this article by some people. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 09:27, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
:You have my reinforcement; this is unworkable what is going on here. . - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 11:07, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

== Jedwabne 2 ==

Then this one:

*{{tq|Żaryn assigns most of the blame for the Jedwabne pogrom on Germans, arguing that Germans were provoking Poles to commit the crime and that the Nazis were acting behind the scenes and commanded the people who murdered Jews.}}

Same as the above, sourced to the interview with him. What’s going on here? - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 19:18, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
: Same as above. Is the summary decent? Did Zaryn assign "most of the blame" or he "shared the blame"? I didnt read and dont want to. I'm just giving an example of what to look for. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 19:38, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
:: Yeah, here "most of the blame" is definetly POV original research. He does say that the Germans tried to "provoke" the Poles (which they did) into committing these acts and that in general they "directed" the murders. This sentence would be mostly fine if the "most of the blame" part was removed or rewritten since that is not an accurate description of the source.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 20:50, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
:: Also, once you remove the "most of the blame" OR, the rest of the statement isn't really "controversial". The Germans most certainly did try to provoke the local populations to commit pogroms and they most certainly were in charge of the events in general. There are probably some other "controversial" statements in that article but these two claims aren't.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 20:53, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

P.S. I've seen an opinion that summarizing from a primary source is original research. In is no more original research than summarizing from secondary sources. I've seen plenty of twisted summarizing of secondary sources. The central issue is [[WP:V|Verifiability]]: is the summary a faithful representation of what was written or not? Again: a wikipedian ''usually'' cannot judge whether the source cited says truth (unless there is a clear contradiction; also we may always judge whether the source is biased), but it is a job of what we all do all the time: verifying whether the wikipedian correctly renders the source. Of course, [[WP:BLP]] has more stringent rules about sourcing (e.g, we have to recognize when the self-source is biased towards themselves), but what I said is the basic answer to your question.[[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 20:02, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

::@Lembit Staan - <s>I understand that you see it all the time <u>BUT</u></s> here is the policy [[WP:PSTS]]:
{{Quote frame|Articles may make an analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claim '''only''' if that has been published by a '''reliable secondary source'''.|}}
and
{{Quote frame|'''Any interpretation''' of primary source material <u>requires a reliable secondary source</u> for that interpretation.|}}
and
{{Quote frame|'''Do not''' <u>analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize</u> material found in a primary source '''yourself'''; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so.|}}
We should follow to the policy '''especially''' for BLP's. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 20:09, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
:{{ping|GizzyCatBella}} Please tell me where I said otherwise. I was talking about faithful ''summarizing''. As for "evaluating", people are often confusing "evaluation in the article text" and "evaluating in the talk page". The former is a no-no, the latter is our daily job. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 20:30, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
:As for "{{tq|Żaryn assigns most of the blame <...>}}, the correct wikipedia text must be {{tq|'''In this interview''' Żaryn assigns most of the blame <...>.}} - to make it clear that it is not a synthesis from several sources. - It may be followed e.g., by: "Prof. Browarski sees this as an example of Zaryn's disagreement with an established consensus" or something. (And the established consensus is, hopefully, presented in our wp-article.) This is what I was talking about in my "Argumentative" clause in the RFC above. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 20:30, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
:: @Lembit Staan - Oh yeah, I miss-read you, sorry. Yeah, I agree. Also, why those parts were chosen from the interviews, he talks about other things as well. I find this cherry-picking problematic; it's like notifying the readers that he was saying something inaccurately right off the bat. How do we know that he is not right in his statements? We don't, and if we don't, why is that in the section?  - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 21:10, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@Lembit Staan, @GizzyCatBella: the sentences I have provided are contained in the original Polish wikipedia article. The fragments from the original text that supported the phrases are the following:
{{collapse top|title=Jedwabne}}
1. Jedwabne: ''W propagandzie niemieckiej tego okresu obecna była interpretacja, według której narody uwalniane spod sowieckiej okupacji, mające być beneficjentami nowego niemieckiego porządku powinny oczyszczać z „żydokomuny” podporządkowane Niemcom ziemie. Taka interpretacja w kontekście rzekomego udziału narodu polskiego w projekcie niemieckim jest powtarzaniem kłamliwej goebbelsowskiej propagandy, wzmocnionej po wojnie niektórymi procesami – zbrodniami sądowymi czasów stalinowskich – opartymi na oskarżeniach z dekretu sierpniowego z 1944 r. „o wymiarze kary dla faszystowsko-hitlerowskich zbrodniarzy” winnych zabójstw i kolaboracji z III Rzeszą. Fakty są takie, że Niemcy próbowali prowokować Polaków do takich działań posiłkując się stanem ich rzeczywistych emocji po okupacji sowieckiej i dążyli do wprowadzenia ich w krąg nienawiści budowany przez oddziały Einsatzgruppen. Formacje te były rzeczywistymi reżyserami każdego z kilkunastu tragicznych zbrodni z czerwca i lipca 1941 r., począwszy od wydarzeń w Białymstoku, poprzez Wąsocz, Radziłów, na Jedwabnem kończąc. Wszędzie tam Niemcy próbują przymusić Polaków do uczestnictwa w tych mordach, co w większości wypadków się nie udaje, a jeśli to jedynie w formie biernej. Oczywiście w Jedwabnem znajdują folksdojczów i osoby spoza tej miejscowości, które przychodzą tam razem z Niemcami. Wszystko jednak dzieje się pod dyktando niemieckie.''

Loosely translated: In the German propaganda of that period, there was an intepretation according to which the people who were liberated from the Soviet occupation and who were to be profiting from the new German order were to clean the conquered lands by Germans from "[[Żydokomuna]]". The interpretation, in the context of the alleged participation of the Polish people in the German project, is repeating deceitful Goebbels propaganda that was amplified after [WWII] by some processes - [namely], the judicial crimes of Stalinist times - that were based on accusations [coming] from the August 1944 decree "On the terms of punishment for the Fascist-Hitlerite criminals" who were guilty of murders and collaboration with the Third Reich. The facts are such that Germans were trying to provoke Poles to such activities, making use of the state of their real emotions after the Soviet occupation, and were striving to introduce them to the circle of hate that was being developed by the Einsatzgruppen. These formations were the real directors of each of the [dozen - used word for 11-19] tragic crimes of June and July 1941, starting from the events in Białystok, through Wąsocz, Radziłów and finishing in Jedwabne. In every place, Germans try to force Poles to participate in the massacres, which does not happen in most cases, and even if it does, only in the passive form. Of course, they find the Volksdeutsche in Jedwabne [as well as] people from outside the settlement who come there with the Germans. All that happens, however, under German instructions.
{{collapse bottom}}
From which text I made the following conclusions: 1. Żaryn states that he considers Germans as the directors and arguably the principal perpetrators of the crimes in summer 1941 in [[Podlasie]] 2. That Germans were provoking Poles to participate; 3. That Żaryn doubts that Poles have actually taken part in the massacres.

:So what’s so scandalous or out of the ordinary in what that scholar discusses? Is he saying that the earth is flat? To me this is an [[WP:UNDUE]] original interpretation of a primary sources on top entered in the wrong section. Biographies of living persons must be written conservatively. I’m going to remove that right away since it’s a [[WP:BLP]] article and must adhere strictly to <u>Neutral point of view</u> ([[WP:NPOV]]), <u>Verifiability</u> ([[WP:V]]) and '''no original research''' ([[WP:NOR]]). Please keep in mind that the [[wikipedia:Verifiability#Responsibility%20for%20providing%20citations|burden of evidence]] rests with the editor who adds or restores the material. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 23:54, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
::{{tq|So what’s so scandalous or out of the ordinary in what that scholar discusses?}}  
::A debate on the issue of whether Poles were in any way coerced to commit the massacre is still happening after the publication of ''Sąsiedzi'', and he is on the side of those who believe that Poles were coerced (cf. citation of Michlic and Hackmann in the article, who criticise the general attitude of trying to exonerate the Poles). For instance, [https://www.czasopisma.uni.lodz.pl/philosophica/article/view/3713/3245 this] article from Univ. of Łódź opines that "if IPN organises a conference on Polish-Jewish relations,b then the people who will be admitted could be Marek Chodakiewicz, Jerzy Robert Nowak or Jan Żaryn, while Barbara Engelking, Jan Grabowski or Dariusz Libionka will be disqualified, because their participation would be a blunder*" *-alluding to an earlier quote of Jarosław Szarek. Libionka himself states [https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/view/512 in Żaryn's generally negative book review] that he is one of the greatest opponents of the view pitched by Jan Tomasz Gross. Since the topic is controversial and Żaryn has made extensive comments on Jedwabne in general, his POV on Jedwabne should be included, and at least a mention of his strenuous opposition to Jan Tomasz Gross. See also [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276454074_Poklosie_poGrossie_i_kibice_polskosci], [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/23739770.2016.1262991?needAccess=true].
::In other words, change the source; don't change the sentence much.
::<s>As for KOD and his declaration about "betrayal" - I don't see your argument at all. Is this info verifiable? It is - it has even been published in two media resources, of which I cited Nasz Dziennik as the original one and not the analysis by oko.press, as was in the original. Has it been published in a reliable source? I stand by the previous discussion, in which both you and Volunteer Marek have voted against, but most other editors were in favour. There is one more problem - as I have noted in the translation, he regularly publishes in conservative publications and seldom outside them; unfortunately, I see great reliability issues with most of the right-wing Polish media, which he favours to publish in and speak to (exception: some Catholic journals are good enough, but certainly not Nasz Dziennik). That said, his political views, particularly since he was a senator at the time of publication, certainly belong to the article.
::Has this been original research? {{tq|Rewriting source material in your own words, while substantially retaining the meaning of the references, is not considered to be original research.}}
::I may propose to divide the chapter about views and controversies into two parts (political views; controversies) if possible. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 02:53, 8 June 2021 (UTC)</s>
::: @Szmenderowiecki - quoting you here -->{{tq|Since the topic is controversial and Żaryn has made extensive comments on Jedwabne in general, his POV on Jedwabne should be included, and at least a mention of his strenuous opposition to Jan Tomasz Gross.}} Are you planning to add the fact that Żaryn is one of these scholars that dispute Gross's findings in the dedicated controversies section[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_T._Gross#Controversies] of [[Jan T. Gross|Jan Tomasz Gross']]s article? - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 03:06, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
::::Could be, if determined notable enough. No objections for that. The quotes are provided in the sources; in Żaryn's article, we could essentially copy the fragment. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 03:53, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
::::: If according to you it's notable here, then it is notable there as well, don't you agree? - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 04:14, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::Absolutely. But I don't know if it is notable enough in the first place. I think I could introduce a paragraph or a couple of sentences for evaluation before copypasting it here. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 08:45, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Ok, Szmenderowiecki, thanks for providing these quotes, that clarifies which part of the source they're supposedly based on. Here are the issues:

{{tq|1. Żaryn states that he considers Germans as the directors and arguably the principal perpetrators of the crimes in summer 1941 in Podlasie 2. That Germans were provoking Poles to participate; 3. That Żaryn doubts that Poles have actually taken part in the massacres.}} 1 is fine in the part where Zaryn says he considers Germans "as the directors". It is not fine in the part where it says Zaryn considers Germans "principal perpetrators". You yourself seem to be aware of that since you add the word "arguably". If it's "arguably" then it shouldn't be in here since this is a BLP. It's also a flag that this part is WP:OR

2 is fine. 3 however is NOWHERE in the source. Zaryn simply does not say anything like this. Not even close. In fact he obviously acknowledges that Poles took part.

So this is, like 1/3 ok and 2/3 original research. Remove the WP:OR BLP violating parts and it may be fine.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 02:42, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
:Part 1. Please review other links that state Żaryn's view that Germans were principal perpetrators of Jedwabne (from 4 scholarly sources), that may change the proposal. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 03:49, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

* {{re|Volunteer Marek|Szmenderowiecki}} Żaryn's own words, for reference: [https://dzieje.pl/aktualnosci/prof-jan-zaryn-niemcy-byli-rezyserami-pogromow-takich-jak-w-jedwabnem][https://www.tysol.pl/a34487-tylko-u-nas-Przypominamy-Prof-Zaryn-Polska-racja-stanu-polega-na-wznowieniu-ekshumacje-w-Jedwabnem] [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 19:00, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
::Yes, that is indeed the interview that is being discussed in this section.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 20:37, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

{{od}}

Just quote him:

{{quote|
Żaryn believes that the perception of Poles during WWII as antisemitic and xenophobic is a "false stereotype", that is contrary to the nation's Christian identity.<ref name="interview 2019-07-10">{{Cite interview |last=Żaryn |first=Jan |title=Przypominamy. Prof. Żaryn: Polska racja stanu polega na wznowieniu ekshumacje w Jedwabnem |url=https://www.tysol.pl/a34487-tylko-u-nas-Przypominamy-Prof-Zaryn-Polska-racja-stanu-polega-na-wznowieniu-ekshumacje-w-Jedwabnem |date=2019-07-10}}</ref>

Żaryn believes that "Germans tried to provoke Poles to [acts of violence against Jews] by taking advantage of their emotional state after the Soviet occupation... in most cases they failed, but when they didn't, [the Polish participation] was only passive." He blames the [[Jedwabne pogrom]] on [[Volksdeutsche]], "outsiders", and German direction; and has stated that "even if some of the Polish locals participated in this 'spectacle' under duress... the majority looked on in disgust at what the Germans did...".<ref name="interview 2016-09-15">{{Cite interview |last=Żaryn |first=Jan |title=Prof. Jan Żaryn: Niemcy byli "reżyserami" pogromów takich jak w Jedwabnem |url=https://dzieje.pl/aktualnosci/prof-jan-zaryn-niemcy-byli-rezyserami-pogromow-takich-jak-w-jedwabnem |date=2016-09-15}}</ref> Żaryn has supported the efforts to [[exhumation|exhume]] the bodies of Jedwabne's victims, led by [[Ewa Kurek]] over objections of the Jewish community, for both scientific and political reasons.<ref name="interview 2019-07-10" />
}}

[[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 08:27, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
:{{u|François Robere}}, Assuming this is accurate, I think quoting him is acceptable. Although is the word "believes" neutral? Maybe "states" would be better? As an aside, [[Erving Goffman]] said that we can never be sure what one truly believes. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 10:19, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
:: {{re|Piotrus}} I'd say that's context-dependent, but "states" or "claims" are okay as well. The only problem is that there's a different precision/conciseness trade-off with "states" vs. "claims" or "believes", so we might end up with a slightly longer text. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:11, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
:::I am fine with the "states" version. Also, accuracy is more important than length. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 11:44, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
:::: Done. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 12:42, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
:Wait, what exactly is Kurek "leading" and where is that in the source? The exhumation was in 2001 (iirc). And what exactly is "controversial" about  this position? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 13:00, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Currently it is in two places. Please collect into one, otherwise difficult to read and understand. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 09:56, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
:Done. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 12:56, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I suggest to restrict the section "Controversy" to isolated ''events'' involving him. Criticism of the views is not "controversy". For example Wałęsa and Azari are controversies. Jedwabne is an ongoing subject in his views. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]])
: Agreed, and done (due Szmenderowiecki). [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 12:41, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Please don't add highly controversial stuff without getting consensus on talk first. There's explicit opposition if not outright consensus against inclusion of some of this stuff above.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 14:45, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
: As before, VM, other than deleting and disputing others' suggestions,[https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=Volunteer+Marek&page=Jan+%C5%BBaryn&max=500&server=enwiki] do you have any constructive proposal? You're the last one arguing on what looks like a settled discussion (last comments from five days ago), and deleting everything now is pretty contentious. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 15:01, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
::There was 23k bytes of text added by Szmenderowiecki [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=prev&oldid=1027800149] without consensus for most of it. And no, I'm not the only one who has objected to this text, seeing as how it misrepresents sources or strays into WP:OR and WP:SYNTH <u>in a BLP</u>.
::And so the account that created the RfC above turned out to be another Icewhiz sock (funny that). And yet somehow, as soon as the account gets banned, the text gets added anyway? How the hey does that work? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 16:37, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
::And btw, I've removed less than half of that no-consensus-addition. Honestly, there is still stuff in there that should go.
::Also, you've never replied to my points above (like wth does Kurek have to do with anything and what exactly is she "leading")? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 16:38, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
::Also, there's just some basic factual errors in this text (not present in sources) like the claim that his comments about ONR "not being fascist" refer to present rather than the interwar organization (he's wrong on that but we should at least get what he says right).<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 16:47, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
::: {{tq|There was 23k bytes of text added by Szmenderowiecki}} We've been discussing this addition across six threads, there was no reason for you to remove it unilaterally.
::: {{tq|And so the account that created the RfC above turned out to be another Icewhiz sock}} You're welcome to open another RfC if you think it'll change the 6:1 vote in favor of addition.
::: {{tq|as soon as the account gets banned, the text gets added anyway}} The text was added two days prior - there's no connection between the two.
::: {{tq|like wth does Kurek have to do with anything and what exactly is she "leading"}} [[WP:GIYF]]: [http://janzaryn.pl/?p=3421][https://pch24.pl/wniosek-o-wznowienie-ekshumacji-w-jedwabnem-juz-w-ministerstwie-sprawiedliwosci/][https://wpolityce.pl/polityka/440256-arcyciekawa-dyskusja-kurek-z-zarynem-we-wpolscepl]
::: {{tq|Also, there's just some basic factual errors in this text}} And can you fix them, or at least bring them here? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 18:24, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::Yes, we’ve been discussing it across several threads and there’s been no consensus to include this material. So why unilaterally plop down 20k worth of stuff into the article that’s already been objected to? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 01:36, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::Also no idea where you pulled this “6:1” thing out of. Not interested in starting an RfC and doing a sock’s job for them right now.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 01:59, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::: [[Counting]], and you can either accept it or start an RfC of your own, but not both. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 14:34, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::: The addition preceded the discussion, VM, not the other way around. You deleting it while discussion is ongoing (or in some cases after it has settled ''for'' inclusion) is exactly the problem. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 14:34, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::That’s a funny way to “count” (sic). Is that the “new math”? And why in the world should I “accept” an RfC which 1) was started by a sock of an indef banned user (now banned), one who you had an extensive history of collaborating with , and 2) it was withdrawn  (!). I’m not following your logic here. Even if we ignore the fact that the RfC was started by Icewhiz, or the fact that good number of votes were from brand new accounts violating the 500/30 restriction, it was withdrawn. Why should I start anything? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 15:25, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::: Oh, right - it's actually 7:2 (earlier I only counted the '''bold''' votes):[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn#Poll]
:::::::: For: Szmenderowiecki, François Robere, BSMRD, Mhorg, Piotrus (on one), Darouet, CPCEnjoyer
:::::::: Against: Lembit Staan, My very best wishes
:::::::: I don't care what you do as long as you don't stonewall well-sourced, compromise additions, that others have worked on for several weeks.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn/Archive_1] Now, I'm asking again: do you have a ''constructive'' proposal? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 16:01, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::{{replyto|François Robere}}: Add me to the editors who support inclusion. Feel free to update your list of "votes" accordingly. I follow and occasionally edit Polish topics on Wikipedia and it's clear the article at hand is being subjected to a whitewash by a small number of users. Yes, I've read these articles in Haaretz and Gazeta Wyborcza so it doesn't surprise me at all. And no, I'm not one of these "suspicious brandnew accounts" or "Icewhiz sockpuppets". There's no such rule that newcomers are prohibited from editing articles that Volunteer Marek and his ring wanna treat as their personal playground.[[User:Potugin|Potugin]] ([[User talk:Potugin|talk]]) 16:10, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::This never ends does it? Are you sure you’re past the 500/30 threshold? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 16:33, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::::{{replyto|Volunteer Marek}} - feel free to link the relevant guideline, I've heard about it but I don't know what exactly does it mean and how it's relevant here. Talk pages I reckon were exempt from restrictions, I do remember someone said. Also, FYI, the only reason I haven't nominated this garbage: ''[[Gestapo–NKVD conferences]]'' for deletion yet is indeed the fact that some kind of restrictions on relatively new accounts/infrequent editors are in place. So again, I'd appreciate if you could give a link to an authoritative rule. [[User:Potugin|Potugin]] ([[User talk:Potugin|talk]]) 16:58, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::::::No idea what that article has to do with anything.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 17:14, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
With regard to this sentence, the problem is with how the info is presented:
''On several separate occasions, he argued that there existed szmalcownik Jews,[49][50] alongside Ukrainians, the Volksdeutsche, and Germans''

It basically makes it seem as if the claim was false (it isn't, Jewish szmalcowniks did exist, though most likely not that many) rather than the fact that the problem with Zaryn is that he *overemphasizes* this aspect of the phenomenon. It also reads like a bit of OR based on primary sources.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 17:04, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
:Yeah, that actually should go, it states something obvious but is written as if it was not. See page 70 here ---><ref>{{Cite book|last=Tomaszewski|first=Irene|url=https://books.google.ca/books?id=xYQvRapO7rcC&pg=PA70&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false|title=Code Name Żegota: Rescuing Jews in Occupied Poland, 1942-1945 : the Most Dangerous Conspiracy in Wartime Europe|last2=Werbowski|first2=Tecia|date=2010|publisher=ABC-CLIO|isbn=978-0-313-38391-5|language=en}}</ref> I’ll remove that. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 17:26, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

On the issue of the exhumations at Jedwabne. Why is this notable? Oreven controversial for that matter? You can disagree on this issue but seeing as how Jan T Gross, the guy who brought the Jedwabne massacre to public attention, himself supported exhumations [https://books.google.com/books?id=AfeGB5yz0ooC&printsec=frontcover&dq=neighbors+respond&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiLy8L9xaHxAhUNCM0KHYN-AkkQ6AEwAHoECAsQAg#v=onepage&q=Exhumation&f=false] why is this noteworthy? (Answer: it’s not which is why all that we have here is one sensationalist ideological tabloid and a bunch of primary sources).<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 16:00, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
: Because: a) we're already covering his stance on Jedwabne; b) this is part of that stance; and c) he's very vocal about it.
: Jan Gross supported ''one'' exhumation that was done with representatives of the Jewish community and human rights groups; it's not at all clear that he'd support one pushed by [[Ewa Kurek]] and Żaryn in a climate of [[Historical policy of the Law and Justice party|politicized historiography]]. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 16:33, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
:: without context it’s meaningless though. And as far as Jan Gross goes, no, your statement is completely false. Please actually read the source I linked. Gross argued that the “one exhumation” that you refer to was grossly inadequate and demanded that further exhumations be conducted. Just like Zaryn. I know this is, like, very inconvenient, since then you can’t line up the little pieces on the two sides of the “bad guys” and “good guys” line but this isn’t a Hollywood movie.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 16:40, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
::: What's missing from the context, in your opinion?
::: p. 456 of your source:
::: {{quote|''30 May and 3 June 2001'' The IPN conducts a partial exhumation... Present at the exhumation are representatives of IPN... Rabbi Menachem Ekstein... [Rabbi] Michael Schudrich... young members of the Warsaw Jewish community... [and] Dr. William Haglund [from ''Physicians for Human Rights'']... The exhumation lasts only five days owing to pressure from various Jewish Orthodox religious groups...}}
::: {{quote|''Early June 2001'' Jan T. Gross issues appeal to the IPN not to stop the exhumation... [He] estimates that the entire exhumation of the remains... should last many months, if not a year.}}
::: [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 17:05, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
::::... ... ... Are you aware of the fact that with those quotes you just confirmed what I just wrote and completely contradicted what you claimed earlier? ... ... ... ?<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 17:23, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
::::: Not really. The problem is that your statement (with "grossly inadequate" and "further exhumations") can be read in more than one way: that the exhumations were conducted ''improperly'', and that ''other'' exhumations should be arranged; or that the exhumations were done properly and should've been prolonged (which is what the source implies was Gross's position). Hence the statement {{tq|Jan Gross supported ''one'' exhumation that was done with representatives of the Jewish community and human rights groups}} is very much correct, otherwise why would he "appeal" to prolong it?
::::: Anything else? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 17:57, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::It is not correct. It is nothing like “correct”. It is the opposite of correct. Words have meaning, usually they don’t mean the opposite of what they do. If a guy says “I think there should be more exhumations” that actually surprisingly shockingly amazingly DOES NOT mean he’s actually saying “I support only the one exhumation that happened”. This right here is the problem with these discussions. When one editor just straight up pretends that if someone says “X” then what they really said was “not X” then I just don’t see how constructive discussion of resolution of the disagreement can take place.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 22:08, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::: So... anything else? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 23:13, 19 June 2021 (UTC)


{{talkref}}

== Relocating comments ==

[[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] - Please '''stop moving my comments around''' all here is confusing already as it is. Please move them back to their original positions or if now it’s too late because it will generate further confusion, '''please don’t do it again'''.- <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 20:15, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
'''THIS''' I’m talking about - [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_Żaryn&diff=1027863302&oldid=1027861885&diffmode=source]. I’m lost.. don’t do it again please. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 20:21, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

:I thought [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] asked to refactor the talk page: "Currently it is in two places. Please collect into one, otherwise difficult to read and understand." If Lembit Staan confirms this is not what he wanted, I will revert to the older version. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 21:21, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
::I was talking about the article; Robere addressed that. The action of Szmenderowiecki here was harmless, so I think let it be. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 21:25, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
:: Okay, I got it; I found all now; it’s my old head that resists cooperating if things are moved around. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 21:55, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
:::It's all right, sorry for any inconvenience I might have caused by that. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 18:39, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

== Restoring deleted content ==

User [[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] restored this edit[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_Żaryn&curid=60905187&diff=1028827250&oldid=1028738068&diffmode=source] into the [[WP:BLP]] article, likely violating policies [[WP:BLPUNDEL]] and [[WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE]] that state: {{talkquote|"When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Wikipedia's content policies. <u>If it is to be restored without significant change, '''consensus must be obtained first'''</u>."}} The rationale behind their revert was {{tq|''"I think it is interesting"''}}[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_Żaryn&curid=60905187&diff=1028827250&oldid=1028738068&diffmode=source] I'm asking user [[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] to self revert and gain [[WP:CON]] following the above policies. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 10:54, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
:This is a question I really don't know how to deal with yet. If a user declares something "Undue", what can I answer other than "For me is Due"? The removed part concerns a historian and politician who says a pro-nationalist statement like "the Polish side does everything to civilise the Ukrainian nation", I don't know, if this isn't interesting for a BLP page, what is it? However, having not yet fully understood these rules on revert and consensus, I will auto-revert my restore, waiting for the opinion of some other more experienced colleague.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 11:03, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
:: {{re|Mhorg}} You have the beginning of an answer right there! The other part (cf. [[WP:PROPORTION]]) is to cite as much {{tq|reliable, published material on the subject}} as you can, to demonstrate that not only ''you'' think it's "a thing", but also ''RS''. The better and the more sources you have, the stronger your argument for inclusion will be. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 18:45, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

== Removal of Ukraine section ==

I am against this removal of VolunteerMarek[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_%C5%BBaryn&type=revision&diff=1028723543&oldid=1028723440], I think a statement like "''the Polish side does everything to civilise the Ukrainian nation[, while] the Ukrainian side does everything to distance itself from the European civilisation''" is notable for a politician/historian. The user insists that Oko.press is not reliable, yet what is reported and verifiable in the source of radiomaryja.pl. So his motivation does not seem legitimate to me. Also, please avoid using phrases in the edit summary like "oko not reliable despite what Icewhiz socks claim", because in this way the user also accuses several of us of being socks of that user.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 13:14, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
:You must realize that [[WP:BLP]] bio's are not compilations of comments editors find "interesting"[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_Żaryn&curid=60905187&diff=1028827250&oldid=1028738068&diffmode=source]. So no, I also don't think it is notable at all. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 15:21, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
:Is there any other source here which would indicate this received attention? We can’t have a criticism section which is just “here’s something the guy said that somebody didn’t like”.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 02:42, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
:: I suspect Żaryn's general approach to Ukraine might be more notable than any particular quote, if we can source it. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 14:28, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
:::Well, when and if you source it, then we can discuss it.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 16:01, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

== ANI discussion ==

To all whom it may concern, there is a [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive_mass_deletion_behaviour|case filed at the administrators noticeboard]] due to an editorial impasse as concerns this article. Users will be notified on their respective talk pages shortly. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 17:14, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
:I have no judgement on content, but
:#Any ''new'' materials can be included on the page only based on WP:Consensus, and especially in BLP pages. Not by edit war, and not by filing litigious complaints.
:#Just looking at this page editing history [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_%C5%BBaryn&offset=&limit=250&action=history], the trouble/edit war started from this revert [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1020024588&oldid=1020009653]. The previous revert was made by VM per WP:BRD. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:03, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
:#: I respectfully disagree with your second point. While Mhorg reverting Vm reverting Mhorg wasn't the best idea, they didn't break [[WP:3RR]] nor [[WP:EDITWAR]]. They're a relatively inexperienced editor, and should be shown some leniency as long as they don't cause any disruption (and they didn't). The problem started with [[Talk:Jan Żaryn/Archive 1#BLP vio|this]] thread: VM took to talk, as he should, but immediately accused Mhorg of "[attempting] to turn the article into an attack page", "straight up misrepresentation of sources" and "an indirect form of WP:CANVASS"; then me of "[trying] to escalate" and "constant WP:BATTLEGROUND" for pinging an admin. What's more, his claims that the sources are being misrepresented ended up being more semantic than substantial.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_Żaryn&type=revision&diff=1027361870&oldid=1027352522&diffmode=source][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJan_%C5%BBaryn&type=revision&diff=1027517665&oldid=1027501112] Two months and 28 deletions later,[https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=Volunteer+Marek&page=Jan+%C5%BBaryn&server=enwiki&max=] and here we are. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 14:31, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::{{tq|his claims that the sources are being misrepresented ended up being more semantic than substantial}}. Right below you made a proposal to include text which smears the subject of this BLP by pretending he said THE OPPOSITE of what he actually said. If you think that concern is "more semantic than substantial" you really shouldn't be editing this article, or any BLPs for that matter.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 22:15, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::My very best wishes, I suppose you came here by accident and not because you are following me (I don't think there is a lot of international attention on Zaryn, but that's okay...) and trying to attacking me (again[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/MPSCL/Archive]). "{{tq|the trouble/edit war started from this revert}}[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1020024588&oldid=1020009653]" you wrote... please look at the summaries. VM wrote "yeah this is BLP vio (at least part of it) with questionable sources" and I restored the part with this explanation "Please, if "part of it" is BLP vio, delete that "part" and explain why". Where is the mistake in this? Why remove all of a contribution if the user thinks there is only one part that is not right?<br>Volunteer Marek, currently, you have contested the sources of two lines of that huge proposed text. You are talking about it as if all the insertion made by François Robere and Szmenderowiecki is written by distorting the sources. Which does not reflect reality. I find that your observations were correct, regarding the text I introduced at the beginning. But now the situation is different, could you comment on the parts of the text that simply report what Zaryn declares?--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 09:22, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::: That wasn't part of my proposal, it was part of the existing text. As for the diffs I cited[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_Żaryn&type=revision&diff=1027361870&oldid=1027352522&diffmode=source][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJan_%C5%BBaryn&type=revision&diff=1027517665&oldid=1027501112] - the sources mentioned there ended up either stating or heavily implying what was claimed, as did Korycki (which you removed as "I don't think Korycki says this" [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1028725821&diffmode=source]) and Libionka (which you claimed was "SYNTH and OR" [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1029914578&oldid=1029905679]). It may be that you were right on one or two points (we do have some fresh editors, and training takes time), but by and large your claims of misrepresentation ended up being hot air. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 14:20, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::I stand by my comment. Moreover, there is troubling pattern: some accounts with few edits who never edited this page before (one of them is blocked sockpuppet) suddenly appear only to revert VM and restore disputed content on this and other pages. P.S. I commented here because I saw the discussion on the ANI. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:02, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::: Then rest assured that that's not what happened here, and AFAIK both new users who have persisted in this article have reasonable explanations for how they got here and what they wanted to achieve - ''not that they any'', this being an ''open'' encyclopedia. I would think a more troubling pattern is how our "veterans" treat "newbies", and how quickly and often this treatment throws the discussion into a spin. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 17:44, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::Mmmm, no, it’s exactly what happened here. How is it these socks always show up to these articles, FR? And pretend to be “newbies”? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 18:04, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::: If you're referring to Mhorg and Szmenderowiecki, then that's not what happened and making those accusations here would not be in your best interest. If you're not referring to them, then how is your message related to mine? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 19:01, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::: VM please, if you have any doubts about me, open an SPI (if the one you participated in against me was not enough for you) and get a definitive answer. I ask you to stop here with these insinuations that I would be a sockpuppet.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 20:42, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::: Concerning this particular article I'm very obviously referring to VikingDrummer who was just literally banned as a sock of Icewhiz. You know, pretending to be a "newbie".<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 22:00, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

== Resolving disputes one-by-one ==
{{anchor|Resolving disputes}}
The way I see it, we have five ongoing discussions:
# On the inclusion of Libionka and Korycki ([[Talk:Jan Żaryn/Archive 1#BLP vio]], [[#RFC on François Robere's second proposal: Views and lead]]).
# On Żaryn's expressions of nationalist and antisemitic positions, and...
# ...his 1968 resolution proposal and comments on the Israeli ambassador ([[#Recent text deletions (topic separate from RfC)]])
# On Żaryn's view on "Judeo-Communism" and its importance for the [[#Relations between Jews and Poles]]
# On Żaryn's view of the Jedwabne pogrom and its aftermath ([[#Jedwabne 2]])

I propose an RfC on [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_%C5%BBaryn&type=revision&diff=1029208355&oldid=1029207290&diffmode=source this edit] (not mentioning these discussions, just the edit), in which I attempted to address these issues. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 13:26, 21 June 2021 (UTC) <small>(Clarified [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:53, 22 June 2021 (UTC))</small>
:No, you cannot have a single RFC on several issues. It will be a horrible mess, worse than now. Please file RFC for items already discussed in separate sections, such as [[#Jedwabne 2]]. If a certain piece was not discussed, please start a section for it (RFC is called only if there is no consensus by regular editing discussion).  [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 18:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
:: But I ''can'' have an RfC on a single edit, which is often what voters ask for anyway. AFAIC that revision captures the state of the discussion at that point in time; I can segment the RfC, but I'm not going to write five separate ones  after all the work it took to get to that point. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:17, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
:::[[User:François Robere|François Robere]], you can, but I think it would be a terrible idea which will only turn up the heat. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 12:00, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
:If there are five different issues it makes no sense to have a single RfC for all of them. You're basically asking for an RfC to legitimize your edits which is not the purpose of the RfC. Also your presentation of these issues isn't exactly neutral.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 18:43, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
::What are you waiting for? Propose the text which would, in your opinion, be neutral and would account for the sources. Expand the article for once. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 06:43, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
:: How would you segment it, then? I'm not going to write up five separate RfCs. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:36, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
:::I think a single RFC is enough to understand users' views on how to handle this issue. At the most it could be separated into two RFCs, but to expect one to be done for each line of text seems to me only a way to discourage the enrichment of the article.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 11:47, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
:::{{tq|one for each line}} - that's correct. But not exactly. One for each '''topic''', because some lines may be acceptable or salvageable, and some are not. We are not in American parliament to pass [[omnibus bill]]s . [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:04, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
: Right of then top of this text: " antisemitic positions". AFAIU, antisemitism is a punishable offense. If nobody sued him for antisemitism, then any statements to this end are to be immediately defenestrated without wasting time in talk page, per [[WP:BLP]]. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 02:18, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
:: The top is only meant for reference in this discussion, not for the RfC (I'll add a clarification). We can, of course, RfC the statement "Żaryn has been criticized for expressing antisemitic positions (ref1)(ref2)(ref3)" or somesuch. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:53, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
:: More to the point, if no source says this - and no source says this, Polityka doesn't say it (though perhaps it insinuates it, which is different) - that's straight up BLP VIO and BLP applies to talk pages as well as article.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 02:30, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
::: We already discussed the sources ad nauseum. Would you like to suggest phrasing that you think is more representative? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:58, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
::::If, as already stated multiple times, no source states this then we simply don’t include anything. I don’t have to propose any “phrasing” or “text”. I propose we don’t misrepresent sources. Thats it. There’s no divine mandate here from high above that we *must* include “something”.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 00:49, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
::::: Of course. The question is what to do with the sources we do have - and we have plenty. If you don't want to make suggestions of your own that's your prerogative, but it's not particularly helpful. [[WP:TALKDONTREVERT]] is a thing. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 19:13, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

=== Initial proposal ===
{{anchor|Split by sections}}

Choices: "include", "include part" or "exclude". Where '''bold''' text is present, only it is in question. Comments? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 12:13, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

{{collapse top|title=Section 1}}
Jan Żaryn is commonly considered to be a conservative historian arguing from the [[ethnonationalist]]<ref name=":13" /><ref>{{Cite web|last=Łupak|first=Stanisław|date=2016-07-09|title=Trzy recenzje są podstawą krytyki PiS wobec Muzeum II Wojny Światowej. Jako pierwsi ujawniamy, co w nich jest|url=https://www.gdansk.pl/wiadomosci/trzy-recenzje-sa-podstawa-krytyki-pis-wobec-muzeum-ii-wojny-swiatowej-jako-pierwsi-ujawniamy-co-w-nich-jest,a,57214|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-09|website=Gdańsk - oficjalny portal miasta|language=pl}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Mink|first=Georges|title=LES HISTORIENS POLONAIS FACE À L’EXPÉRIENCE DE LA « DÉMOCRATIE ILLIBÉRALE »|url=https://www.histoire-politique.fr/documents/31/dossier/pdf/HP31_Dossier5_GeorgesMink_DEF.pdf|journal=Histoire@Politique|language=fr|issue=31|pages=5|access-date=2021-06-09|quote=Un des historiens propulsés sur le devant de la scène est le professeur Jan Żaryn, ardent défenseur du courant nationaliste et antisémite de « Endecja », dont il se fait le propagateur...}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book|url=https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-02456069/document|title=Les Polonais et la Shoah. Une nouvelle école historique|publisher=CNRS Éditions|year=2019|isbn=9782271128997|editor-last=Kichelewski|editor-first=Audrey|location=Paris|pages=275-290|language=fr|quote=En revanche, ses chercheurs sont conspués par l’IPN, le gouvernement, une partie des médias et des historiens très présents dans les médias nationalistes, souvent non spécialistes de la Shoah (parmi lesquels Bogdan Musiał, Piotr Gontarczyk, Jan Żaryn et Andrzej Nowak)|editor-last2=Lyon-Caen|editor-first2=Judith|editor-last3=Szurek|editor-first3=Jean-Charles|editor-last4=Wieviorka|editor-first4=Anette}}</ref><ref name=":14">{{Cite web|last=Duch-Dyngosz|first=Marta|date=2018-05-30|title=Prawica i Żydzi|url=https://www.miesiecznik.znak.com.pl/marta-duch-dyngosz-prawica-i-zydzi/|access-date=2021-06-09|website=Miesięcznik Znak|language=pl}}</ref> and anti-communist<ref>{{Cite journal|last=Stobiecki|first=Rafał|date=Spring 2018|title=Mimo wszystko w obronie polityki historycznej|url=http://ewa.home.amu.edu.pl/Stobiecki,%20W%20obronie%20polityki%20historycznej.pdf|journal=Więź}}</ref> side of historical debate. Żaryn is also thought of as one of the main proponents of the [[historical policy of the Law and Justice party]],<ref name=":13" /><ref name=":14" /><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Grabowski|first=Jan|date=2017-01-06|title=The Holocaust and Poland's “History Policy”|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23739770.2016.1262991|journal=Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs|language=en|doi=10.1080/23739770.2016.1262991|issn=2373-9770|quote=It is within this context that Żaryn, one of the most prominent advocates of Poland’s history policy, declared in November 2015, “This is the time to begin the much-delayed counterrevolution directed at changing the state of consciousness of the contemporary world, at least in our cultural area.”}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Kończal|first=Kornelia|date=2020-04-23|title=Mnemonic Populism: The Polish Holocaust Law and its Afterlife|url=https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/7A5CB69785AF057A849ABED824FEBD4E/S1062798720000502a.pdf/div-class-title-mnemonic-populism-the-polish-holocaust-law-and-its-afterlife-div.pdf|journal=[[European Review]]|pages=1-13|doi=10.1017/S1062798720000502}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Solska|first=Ewa|date=2018-04-23|title=Mitologizacja i polityzacja historii: co możemy wiedzieć, co możemy zrobić i czego możemy się spodziewać?|url=https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/156900109.pdf|journal=Historia@Teoria|language=pl|volume=4|issue=6|pages=7-8|doi=10.14746/ht.2017.6.4.01}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Friedrich|first=Klaus-Peter|date=2008|title=Polacy i Zydzi pod okupacja niemiecka 1939-1945. Studia i materialy|url=https://www.proquest.com/docview/236710449?pq-origsite=gscholar&fromopenview=true|journal=Jahrbücher für Geschichte Osteuropas|language=de|volume=56|issue=1|eissn=23662891|via=Proquest}}</ref><ref name=":16">{{Cite journal|last=Pankowski|first=Rafał|date=2018-07-04|title=The Resurgence of Antisemitic Discourse in Poland|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23739770.2018.1492781|journal=Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs|language=en|doi=10.1080/23739770.2018.1492781|issn=2373-9770}}</ref> though he denies that it is dictated by the party.<ref>{{Cite web|date=2016-09-22|title=Prof. Żaryn w odpowiedzi na tezy prof. Wnuka: „To nie PiS, a państwo polskie prowadzi politykę historyczną”. NASZ WYWIAD|url=http://wpolityce.pl/polityka/309321-prof-zaryn-w-odpowiedzi-na-tezy-prof-wnuka-to-nie-pis-a-panstwo-polskie-prowadzi-polityke-historyczna-nasz-wywiad|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-09|website=wpolityce.pl|language=pl}}</ref> He sees Poles as “loving freedom, Catholicism, patriotism and especially being proud of their history.”,<ref>{{Cite web|last=Żaryn|first=Jan|date=2016-03-24|title=Recenzja wewnętrzna: Program funkcjonalno-użytkowy wystawy głównej. Muzeum II wojny światowej w Gdańsku, ss. 75|url=https://muzeum1939.pl/u/pdf/51c98c1f14c16789f8c244b05feed4e4901.pdf|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-09}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=Ciobanu|first=Claudia|date=2017-05-15|title=Poland’s WWII museum under political bombardment|url=https://www.politico.eu/article/polands-wwii-museum-under-political-bombardment/|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-09|website=[[Politico]]|language=en-US}}</ref> and he sees his role as creating "positive myths" on Polishness.<ref name=":21" /><ref>{{Cite web|title=Toczy się walka o polską świadomość – najnowsza książka prof. Jana Żaryna – Strona oficjalna prof. Jana Żaryna|url=http://janzaryn.pl/?p=2414|access-date=2021-06-10|language=pl-PL}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=Radczenko|first=Antoni|date=2017-09-15|title=W poszukiwaniu polityki historycznej. Dyskusja Żaryn-Valatka|url=https://zw.lt/wilno-wilenszczyzna/w-poszukiwaniu-polityki-historycznej-dyskusja-zaryn-valatka/|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-10|website=zw.lt|language=pl-PL}}</ref>
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{{collapse top|title=Section 2}}
Żaryn argues that the tensions between Jews and other nations in [[Interwar Poland]] were mostly due to economic reasons.<ref name=":21" /><ref name=":12" /><ref name=":17">{{Cite web|last=Libionka|first=Dariusz|date=2015-12-01|title=W poszukiwaniu miliona Sprawiedliwych|url=https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/view/512/531|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-09|website=www.zagladazydow.pl|language=pl|doi=10.32927/ZZSiM.512|quote=}}</ref><ref name=":18">{{Cite journal|last=Koźmińska-Frejlak|first=Ewa|date=2009-11-09|title=Edukacja czy dialog z cieniami… Kilka uwag na marginesie „Tek edukacyjnych” Polacy ratujący Żydów w latach II wojny światowej|url=https://zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/330/357/667|journal=Zagłada Żydów. Studia i Materiały|language=pl|issue=5|pages=467-480|doi=10.32927/ZZSiM.330}}</ref> '''Scholars dispute this characterization.<ref name=":17" /><ref name=":18" /><ref name="Libionka 2013">{{Cite journal |last=Libionka |first=Dariusz |date=2013 |title=“Truth About Camps” or the Uneventful 1942 |url=https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/841/812 |journal=Zagłada Żydów. Studia i Materiały Holocaust Studies and Materials |pages=579-589}}</ref>'''
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{{collapse top|title=Section 3}}
Żaryn, a co-editor of a two-volume monograph on the [[Kielce pogrom]], has stated that "a significant proportion of Jewish individuals... supported the communist authorities or... joined their ranks"; he blames those individuals for "censorship and propaganda, slander... and deceitfully remaining silent about Soviet massacres." This, he believes, "intensified anti-Semitic attitudes" that resulted in the [[Kielce pogrom]]. '''His critics characterize these opinions as resorting to the stereotype of ''[[Żydokomuna]]''.<ref name=":16" /><ref name="Korycki 2019">{{Cite journal|last=Korycki|first=Kate|date=2019-03-31|title=Polticized memory in Poland: anti-communism and the Holocaust|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17504902.2019.1567669|journal=Holocaust Studies|language=en|pages=357|doi=10.1080/17504902.2019.1567669|issn=1750-4902}}</ref>''' Kate Korycki writes that this narrative "unwittingly recycles many Polish anti-Semitic tropes", adding that Żaryn "[uses] a description of the post-war pogrom in Kielce, perpetrated on Jews by Poles, [as] an opportunity to blame the Jews".<ref name="Korycki 2017">{{Cite journal |last=Korycki |first=Kate |date=2017-08-01 |title=Memory, Party Politics, and Post-Transition Space: The Case of Poland |url=https://doi.org/10.1177/0888325417700263 |journal=East European Politics and Societies |language=en |volume=31 |issue=3 |pages=518–544 |doi=10.1177/0888325417700263 |issn=0888-3254}}</ref>
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{{collapse top|title=Section 4}}
Żaryn has stated that the Germans were directors of the [[Jedwabne pogrom]] and also assigned blame to the ''[[Volksdeutsche]]'' and "outsiders" who came from other villages.<ref name=":15">{{Cite web|title=Prof. Jan Żaryn: Niemcy byli "reżyserami" pogromów takich jak w Jedwabnem|url=https://dzieje.pl/aktualnosci/prof-jan-zaryn-niemcy-byli-rezyserami-pogromow-takich-jak-w-jedwabnem|access-date=2021-06-09|website=dzieje.pl|language=pl}}</ref> Poles, in his opinion, were provoked and oftentimes coerced to participate in it.<ref name=":15" /><ref>{{Cite web|last=Żaryn|first=Jan|title=Zagłada Żydów|url=https://truthaboutcamps.eu/th/zaglada/15476,Zaglada-Zydow.html|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-09|website=Truth About Camps|language=pl}}</ref> He added that "even if some of the Polish locals participated in this 'spectacle' under duress... the majority looked in disgust at what the Germans have done..."<ref name=":15" /> and that the "deceitful narrative [of Jedwabne] burdens the Poles and Poland with co-responsibility for the Holocaust", since, according to Żaryn, there were no Poles who [[Collaboration|collaborated]] with the Germans on the crime scene.<ref>{{Cite web|date=2018-02-21|title=Jan Żaryn o ekshumacji w Jedwabnem|url=https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/jan-zaryn-o-ekshumacji-w-jedwabnem/csfg8x4|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Onet Wiadomości|language=pl}}</ref> Żaryn has stated that the current narrative about the Jedwabne events had become a "[[founding myth]]" about the "allegedly proven" organized massacres of Jews by Poles, supposedly rooted in inherent Polish anti-Semitism. He has suggested that these stereotypes stem from insufficient documentation of some World War II events in Poland.<ref name=":20">{{Cite web|date=2019-07-10|title=[tylko u nas] Przypominamy. Prof. Żaryn: Polska racja stanu polega na wznowieniu ekshumacje w Jedwabnem|url=https://www.tysol.pl/a34487-tylko-u-nas-Przypominamy-Prof-Zaryn-Polska-racja-stanu-polega-na-wznowieniu-ekshumacje-w-Jedwabnem|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-09|website=tysol.pl|language=pl}}</ref> Consequently, Żaryn has supported the efforts to [[exhumation|exhume]] the bodies of Jedwabne's victims, '''led by [[Ewa Kurek]] over objections of the Jewish community, for both scientific and political reasons.<ref name=":19">{{Cite web|date=2018-02-22|title=Best of "Onet Opinie". Jan Żaryn gościem Andrzeja Stankiewicza|url=https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/opinie/best-of-onet-opinie-jan-zaryn-gosciem-andrzeja-stankiewicza/qg06n91|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Onet Wiadomości|language=pl}}</ref><ref name=":20" />'''
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{{collapse top|title=Section 5}}
In 2018, two controversies arose connected with the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the [[1968 Polish political crisis|March 1968 political crisis]]. In late February that year, Żaryn entered a project of Senate resolution to commemorate the event, an excerpt from which said that "the communist government, by arranging anti-Semitic demonstrations and forcing Poles to take part in them, and also by introducing pathological anti-Jewish sentiments into public discourse, did not represent the will of the People, but only of [[Moscow]] and its intra-communist and international interests". The wording has been criticised by historians [[Jacek Leociak]] from the [[Polish Center for Holocaust Research]] and {{Interlanguage link|Piotr Osęka|lt=Piotr Osęka|pl}} as an attempt of [[Whitewashing (censorship)|whitewashing]] Polish history;<ref>{{Cite web|last=Pacewicz|first=Piotr|date=2018-03-01|title=Jak się Żydów przeprasza, to po co ich obrażać - o uchwale senatora Żaryna (PiS) mówi prof. Osęka. Prawda o Marcu 1968|url=https://oko.press/sie-zydow-przeprasza-obrazac-o-uchwale-zaryna-pis-mowi-prof-oseka-prawda-o-marcu-1968/|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-07|website=oko.press}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|date=2018-02-27|title=Senator Żaryn autorem uchwały, która ma zostać przyjęta w rocznicę Marca'68. Czeka nas kolejny skandal?|url=https://www.newsweek.pl/polska/polityka/czy-polska-istniala-w-1968-roku-to-nie-my-nas-nie-bylo/00vp4fn|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-07|website=Newsweek.pl|language=pl}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=Dobrosz-Oracz|first=Justyna|date=2018-03-02|title=Jan Żaryn o swojej kontrowersyjnej uchwale. W 68' nie istniało państwo polskie?|url=https://wyborcza.pl/10,152484,23092966,jan-zaryn-o-swojej-kontrowersyjnej-uchwale-w-68-nie-istnialo.html|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-07|website=[[Gazeta Wyborcza]]|language=pl}}</ref> and it proved controversial even among party colleagues and was therefore abandoned.<ref name=":21" /> Two weeks later, a scandal erupted when [[Anna Azari]], Israel's ambassador to Poland, stated that the anti-Semitic events that had happened in Poland in March 1968<ref group=nb name=nb5>"March 1968" is a reference to the anti-Semitic ("anti-Zionist") campaign in Poland during the [[1968 Polish political crisis]], which forced tens of thousands of Jews to emigrate.</ref> occurred nowhere else in the [[Soviet Bloc]]. Żaryn perceived this as an attempt to associate the current ruling party with these events and suggested in harsh words that the ambassador should be expelled for such statements.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Polish senator suggests expelling Israeli envoy for linking ruling party to 1968 purge of Jews|url=https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/polish-senator-suggests-expelling-israeli-envoy-for-68-purge-remarks-1.5889384|access-date=2021-06-07|website=Haaretz.com|language=en}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=News|first=Polsat|title=Żaryn o wypowiedzi ambasador Izraela: może trzeba poprosić tę panią, by opuściła to państwo - Polsat News|url=https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2018-03-09/zaryn-o-wypowiedzi-ambasador-izraela-moze-trzeba-poprosic-te-pania-by-opuscila-to-panstwo/|access-date=2021-06-07|website=polsatnews.pl|language=pl}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=Hartman|first=Jan|author-link=Jan Hartman (philosopher)|date=2018-03-09|title=Skandaliczne słowa prof. Żaryna o ambasador Izraela|url=https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1741106,1,skandaliczne-slowa-prof-zaryna-o-ambasador-izraela.read|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-07|website=www.polityka.pl|language=pl}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|title=Zdecydowane słowa prof. Żaryna dla wPolsce.pl o wypowiedzi ambasador Azari: "Może trzeba poprosić tę panią, by opuściła to państwo"|url=https://wpolityce.pl/polityka/385150-zdecydowane-slowa-prof-zaryna-dla-wpolscepl-o-wypowiedzi-ambasador-azari-moze-trzeba-poprosic-te-pania-by-opuscila-to-panstwo|access-date=2021-06-07|website=wpolityce.pl}}</ref>
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:{{ping|François Robere}} - Some  refs are broken/missing. PLease review.  [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:20, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
:: Thanks. I was aware of it, but since the refs were defined elsewhere in the text, I wasn't sure I could add them without risking ref errors later. Now it's fixed. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 18:03, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

: {{ping|Volunteer Marek|Szmenderowiecki|Lembit Staan|Mhorg|CPCEnjoyer|Piotrus|My very best wishes}} <!-- Editors with >5 edits to this TP who recently participated in a discussion or a vote. --> It just occurred to me that we can shorten this RfC significantly if we trim sections that aren't controversial, specifically #2-4. I'd like to have a rough count of who supports what, and if there are any objections then what are they (in short!). [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 18:41, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
::Are you referring to sections 2, 3 and 4 above? Some of that is most certainly controversial. For example #2 is [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:SYNTH]].<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 19:47, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
::: {{re|Volunteer Marek}} We'll discuss it in a bit. Anything else? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 19:48, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
::::Yeah, a whole bunch. Onet.pl isn't a reliable source but nevermind that part. The real stinker is the claim that ''"according to Żaryn, there were no Poles who collaborated with the Germans on the crime scene."'' This is THE FREAKIN' OPPOSITE of what he says. I can't believe you're actually proposing such a blatant BLPVIO which straight up falsifies what a source says about subject of a BLP. You should really withdraw that, since BLP applies to talk pages as well.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 20:48, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
::::: But VM, that's not part of the RfC - the statement in question in that section is about Ewa Kurek. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 12:26, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::: Dude. Stop. It was part of the RfC when I posted my comment (6/22/21 20:48), you just REMOVED IT subsequently [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_Żaryn&diff=prev&oldid=1030036755] (6/23/21 13:57) and are now trying to play it off like “it’s not part of the RfC, what are you talking about”. Why do you do this? How do you expect other editors to engage with you in a good faith manner when you try to pull stunts like these? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 15:56, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::: {{re|Volunteer Marek}} Please read what you're about to vote on. The intro to the RfC clearly states that {{tq|where '''bold''' text is present, only the bold text is in question.}} That part of the text wasn't marked in '''bold''' when I posted this[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&oldid=1029853070] nor at any time later. It's simply not in the scope of the RfC and never was, since the RfC follows [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_%C5%BBaryn&type=revision&diff=1029208355&oldid=1029207290&diffmode=source this] edit and that wasn't part of it. Me removing that statement was to stop your bickering, otherwise I couldn't care less. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 17:06, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::::???  Are you saying that the dispute is only about the bolded text but the other parts everyone agrees on? Nope. This isn’t how RfCs are done.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 17:31, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::::: Where's the policy to support this claim, exactly? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 19:21, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
::::More (already pointed out - not sure why this has to be repeated in response to this endless [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT]]) For the "ethnonationalist" claim, the fifth source is [https://www.miesiecznik.znak.com.pl/marta-duch-dyngosz-prawica-i-zydzi/ this] and calls him "right wing" not "ethnonationalist". The second source, this [https://www.gdansk.pl/wiadomosci/trzy-recenzje-sa-podstawa-krytyki-pis-wobec-muzeum-ii-wojny-swiatowej-jako-pierwsi-ujawniamy-co-w-nich-jest,a,57214 one] is a PORTAL of a city. It's nowhere near being RS for such a claim in a BLP nor does it meet the sourcing requirements in this topic area. The fourth source, [https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-02456069/document this one] likewise doesn't call him an "ethnonationalist" and AFAICT it's a self published source. The Mink source, the third one [https://www.histoire-politique.fr/documents/31/dossier/pdf/HP31_Dossier5_GeorgesMink_DEF.pdf] also doesn't call him "ethnonationalist" just that he's defended the interwar right wing party. Haven't checked the other one, but so far the track record ain't good. Even if that one last source actually supports the text it's pretty obvious that there are FOUR sources which are being flagrantly misrepresented in order to make the given text look legit. Again, this is straight up misrepresentation of sources that's sanctionable.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 21:19, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::To be clear, Onet is cited for Żaryn's words only, which are verifiable because you have two accompanying videos to that. I'm not aware of Onet ever manipulating videos of interviews. Having not heard the "nie" part (the host was interrupting), I strike out the passage. The rest stays valid. Again, waiting for your text. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 21:35, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::It's not Onet manipulting any interviews - the interview is what it is. It's whoever put the text in the article that manipulated what was said. But AGF I guess, though the track record here is stretching that to the limit.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 22:09, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::I'm also unclear as to why you and Francois Robere are editing each other's comments.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 22:14, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::: It's a work in progress, so I'm okay with it as long as edits are done carefully and I don't miss changes. This one looks reasonable and consensual, and since the text was <s>stricken</s> it was also visible. I've now proceeded to remove the statement and attached source, so this should be resolved. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 14:06, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
::I reiterate my support for all the info that has been deleted (having been its author, which is fairly obvious). However, I am still waiting for whatever proposal VM, or Lembit Staan, or GizzyCatBella (of ''their'' authorship) propose for the text that would in their opinion be fine (including his statements on Ukraine and Pruchnik, which were not included here for some reason but were well covered, including in academia, and their exclusion from discussion unnecessarily narrows the scope of his senatorial career under discussion - there may appear no consensus for inclusion but at least we should discuss before dismissing/approving it) + any additional RS that could be found by them to expand the text, and from that we could probably select portions from each of the texts as it may seem most appropriate. If we don't want {{tq|omnibus bills}} to be passed, we need to have two versions to compare, and we should take the best of both worlds. Ping me or write on the talk page about the article only after that proposal is published, as I see no further need to comment before this happens. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 21:21, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
:::Are you reiterating your support for the claim that ''"according to Żaryn, there were no Poles who collaborated with the Germans on the crime scene."''?
:::My proposal is simply NOT to include text which falsifies sources. That's it. Why should it be something different? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 21:55, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
::::: We just keep going around in circles here. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 23:11, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
::: {{re|Volunteer Marek|Szmenderowiecki}} Take it slowly, please. I want to address points one by one. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:41, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

*About "ethnonationalist" part, I can't find it in the proposed sources. I don't know if I was wrong in the search. If not, that part simply needs to be removed.<br>About "anti-Semitism", in this source[https://www.histoire-politique.fr/documents/31/dossier/pdf/HP31_Dossier5_GeorgesMink_DEF.pdf] already proposed in the text above I find: "''Professor Jan Żaryn, ardent defender of the nationalist and anti-Semitic current of "[[National Democracy (Poland)|Endecja]]"''". This could be a very interesting part to add.<br>About this part: "''according to Żaryn, there were no Poles who collaborated with the Germans on the crime scene.''" if sources have been misinterpreted, we just remove that part. For the rest, if there are no objections, the sources are there and the inserted text explains Zaryn's thought very well. So I am in favor of including the text in the article.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 08:50, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
*:Easy as that: ''Ethnic nationalism, also known as ethnonationalism,'' is a form of nationalism wherein the nation and nationality are defined in terms of ethnicity, with emphasis on ethnocentric approach to various political issues related to national affirmation of a particular ethnic group.
*:What is essentially being described in all these sources is exactly attempts to reinforce the narrative of Polishness via positive myths. We have the nationalist side mentioned explicitly, the "ethno" one is described by Zalewski: "he appears as one of the propagators of the positive national narrative, condemning any forme of historical criticism". Mink, in the paragraph where Żaryn is mentioned, described the general historical policy of PiS, and mentions a few people tied to the historical current of the party (briefly described there), including [[Andrzej Nowak (historian)|Andrzej Nowak]] and Żaryn. Behr says essentially the same (nationalist - explicitly), with the "ethno" part also described thoroughly thoughout the text, matching the definition.
*:I wonder why Duch-Dyngosz was removed though. She [https://www.usosweb.uj.edu.pl/kontroler.php?_action=katalog2/osoby/pokazOsobe&os_id=26845 specialises] in Jewish studies. Probably it's not the best of the best sources, but just because it is not a scholarly paper doesn't mean they should not be included. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 18:34, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
*:: I agree that it would be hard for a reasonable person not to conclude that Żaryn is an ethno-nationalist, but seeing as this is a very contentious TA (and a BLP within it), we should only use a particular descriptor if an RS already uses it (though it doesn't have to be in English, as long as it's easily translatable).
*:: I removed Duch-Dyngosz for a couple of reasons, one being that it wasn't clear to me that she's discussing "ethno-nationalist discourse" in the context of Żaryn's positions. I may have misread - an excerpt establishing that connection would be useful. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 19:38, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
::::Ok, in Italian this term is not used much. The term "nationalist" is enough for us. I don't know, if the word "ethno" is there, then I think it can be used.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 20:32, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

====References (initial proposal)====
{{collapse top|title=References}}

{{reflist|group=nb}}
{{reftalk|
# <ref name=":12">{{Cite journal|last=Libionka|first=Dariusz|date=2013-12-02|title=Truth About Camps, or the Uneventful 1942|url=https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/841/812|journal=Holocaust Studies and Materials|pages=579-589|doi=10.32927/zzsim.841}}</ref>
# <ref name=":13">{{Cite journal|last=Zalewski|first=Frédéric|date=2020|title=Les Marches de l’Indépendance à Varsovie. Recompositions et transformations des droites extrêmes depuis les années 2000 en Pologne|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/27005499|journal=Cultures et Conflits|language=fr|issue=117|pages=53|issn=1157-996X}}</ref>
# <ref name=":21">{{Cite web|last=Kalukin|first=Rafał|date=2018-03-20|title=Senator Żaryn i obce siły|url=https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1742096,1,senator-zaryn-i-jego-pozytywne-mity-na-temat-polskosci.read|url-status=live|archive-url=http://janzaryn.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/polityka_2018_03_21_dzieje_bez_grzechu__pdf_bn_k_p.pdf|archive-date=2018-03-21|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Polityka|language=pl}}</ref>
}}
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=== Section 1 ===
{{anchor|S1ver2}}{{collapse top|title=Section 1}}
Żaryn is commonly considered a [[conservative]] historian promoting [[Polish nationalism|nationalist]]{{efn|<ref name=":13" /><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Mink|first=Georges|title=Les Historiens Polonais Face À L’Expérience De La « Démocratie Illibérale »|url=https://www.histoire-politique.fr/documents/31/dossier/pdf/HP31_Dossier5_GeorgesMink_DEF.pdf|journal=Histoire@Politique|language=fr|issue=31|pages=5|access-date=2021-06-09|quote=Un des historiens propulsés sur le devant de la scène est le professeur Jan Żaryn, ardent défenseur du courant nationaliste et antisémite de « Endecja », dont il se fait le propagateur...}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book |last=Behr |first=Valentin |url=https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-02456069/document |title=Les Polonais et la Shoah. Une nouvelle école historique |publisher=CNRS Éditions |year=2019 |isbn=9782271128997 |editor-last=Kichelewski |editor-first=Audrey |location=Paris |pages=275-290 |language=fr |quote=En revanche, ses chercheurs sont conspués par l’IPN, le gouvernement, une partie des médias et des historiens très présents dans les médias nationalistes, souvent non spécialistes de la Shoah (parmi lesquels Bogdan Musiał, Piotr Gontarczyk, Jan Żaryn et Andrzej Nowak) |editor-last2=Lyon-Caen |editor-first2=Judith |editor-last3=Szurek |editor-first3=Jean-Charles |editor-last4=Wieviorka |editor-first4=Anette}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Czuchnowski |first=Wojciech |date=2018-02-27 |title=Zrozumieć Jana Żaryna |work=Gazeta Wyborcza |url=https://wyborcza.pl/7,75968,23078727,zrozumiec-jana-zaryna.html |access-date=2021-06-24}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Flieger |first=Estera |date=2018-02-27 |title=Marcowa uchwała senatora Żaryna. W '68 Polski nie było |work=Gazeta Wyborcza |url=https://wyborcza.pl/7,75398,23074775,marcowa-uchwala-senatora-zaryna-w-68-polski-nie-bylo.html?disableRedirects=true |access-date=2021-06-24}}</ref>}} and anti-communist<ref>{{Cite journal|last=Stobiecki|first=Rafał|date=Spring 2018|title=Mimo wszystko w obronie polityki historycznej|url=http://ewa.home.amu.edu.pl/Stobiecki,%20W%20obronie%20polityki%20historycznej.pdf|journal=Więź}}</ref> narratives, and one of the main advocates of the [[historical policy of the Law and Justice party]].{{efn|<ref name=":13" /><ref name=":14">{{Cite web|last=Duch-Dyngosz|first=Marta|date=2018-05-30|title=Prawica i Żydzi|url=https://www.miesiecznik.znak.com.pl/marta-duch-dyngosz-prawica-i-zydzi/|access-date=2021-06-09|website=Miesięcznik Znak|language=pl}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Grabowski|first=Jan|date=2017-01-06|title=The Holocaust and Poland's “History Policy”|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23739770.2016.1262991|journal=Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs|language=en|doi=10.1080/23739770.2016.1262991|issn=2373-9770|quote=It is within this context that Żaryn, one of the most prominent advocates of Poland’s history policy, declared in November 2015, “This is the time to begin the much-delayed counterrevolution directed at changing the state of consciousness of the contemporary world, at least in our cultural area.”}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Kończal|first=Kornelia|date=2020-04-23|title=Mnemonic Populism: The Polish Holocaust Law and its Afterlife|url=https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/7A5CB69785AF057A849ABED824FEBD4E/S1062798720000502a.pdf/div-class-title-mnemonic-populism-the-polish-holocaust-law-and-its-afterlife-div.pdf|journal=[[European Review]]|pages=1-13|doi=10.1017/S1062798720000502}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Solska|first=Ewa|date=2018-04-23|title=Mitologizacja i polityzacja historii: co możemy wiedzieć, co możemy zrobić i czego możemy się spodziewać?|url=https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/156900109.pdf|journal=Historia@Teoria|language=pl|volume=4|issue=6|pages=7-8|doi=10.14746/ht.2017.6.4.01}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Friedrich|first=Klaus-Peter|date=2008|title=Polacy i Zydzi pod okupacja niemiecka 1939-1945. Studia i materialy|url=https://www.proquest.com/docview/236710449?pq-origsite=gscholar&fromopenview=true|journal=Jahrbücher für Geschichte Osteuropas|language=de|volume=56|issue=1|eissn=23662891|via=Proquest}}</ref><ref name=":16">{{Cite journal|last=Pankowski|first=Rafał|date=2018-07-04|title=The Resurgence of Antisemitic Discourse in Poland|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23739770.2018.1492781|journal=Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs|language=en|doi=10.1080/23739770.2018.1492781|issn=2373-9770}}</ref>}} He views Polish [[historical policy]] as a "battle under the banners of sovereignty, justice [and] freedom", with the state exercising it "so that Poles don't mistake where there is good and where there is evil",<ref>{{Cite web|last=Radczenko|first=Antoni|date=2017-09-15|title=W poszukiwaniu polityki historycznej. Dyskusja Żaryn-Valatka|url=https://zw.lt/wilno-wilenszczyzna/w-poszukiwaniu-polityki-historycznej-dyskusja-zaryn-valatka/|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-10|website=zw.lt|language=pl-PL|quote=Polska polityka historyczna, zewnętrzna i wewnętrzna, to jest starcie, na sztandarach którego są suwerenność, sprawiedliwość, wolność. Państwo powinno uprawiać politykę historyczną po to, aby Polacy nie pomyliliby się, gdzie jest dobro, a gdzie jest zło.}}</ref> and wishes to "strengthen the educational role of history" so it becomes a "widely accepted... [[national myth|positive myth"]].<ref name=":21" /><ref>{{Cite web|title=Toczy się walka o polską świadomość – najnowsza książka prof. Jana Żaryna – Strona oficjalna prof. Jana Żaryna|url=http://janzaryn.pl/?p=2414|access-date=2021-06-10|language=pl-PL|quote=Rolą senatora, do której być może szczególnie jestem predestynowany jako profesor historii, jest wzmocnić rolę wychowawczą historii. Tak by nasze dzieje stawały się powszechnie rozpoznawalne i by nas uczyły. Aby były przyjmowane w formule pozytywnych mitów przez większą część społeczeństwa. Mam nadzieję, że tak się rzeczywiście dzieje.}}</ref> Żaryn describes Poles as “loving freedom, Catholicism, patriotism and especially being proud of their history”.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Żaryn|first=Jan|date=2016-03-24|title=Recenzja wewnętrzna: Program funkcjonalno-użytkowy wystawy głównej. Muzeum II wojny światowej w Gdańsku, ss. 75|url=https://muzeum1939.pl/u/pdf/51c98c1f14c16789f8c244b05feed4e4901.pdf|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-09}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=Ciobanu|first=Claudia|date=2017-05-15|title=Poland’s WWII museum under political bombardment|url=https://www.politico.eu/article/polands-wwii-museum-under-political-bombardment/|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-09|website=[[Politico]]|language=en-US}}</ref> 
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{{re|Volunteer Marek|Mhorg}}

"Nationalist" or "ethnonationalist": I'm not sure who changed the phrasing from the first to the second. I think the first is better.
# I'm all for citing OKO.press ("nationalist"), GW (states that his work is "representative of Catholic nationalism") and [[Jacek Leociak]] on naTemat (says that Żaryn's 1968 resolution draft is "saturated with nationalism").[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&type=revision&diff=1027361870&oldid=1027352522&diffmode=source]
# Frederic Zalewski, ''Les Marches de l’Indépendance à Varsovie'', 2020: "Jan Żaryn... is one of the most active "memory promoters" of PiS and appears to be one of the propagators of a positive national narrative, condemning all forms of critical history. His commitment to the [Independence] March reflects one of the forms of fusion between PiS, which criticizes the "pedagogy of shame" - an expression that... leads, among other things, to a rehabilitation of the anti-Semitic pre-war national right - and the "national" extreme right, which insists on the Polish nationalist political heritage..."
# Georges Mink, ''Les historiens polonais'', 2017: "...Professor Jan Żaryn, an ardent defender of the nationalist and anti-Semitic current of 'Endecja', which he propagates..."
# Valentin Behr, ''Les discussions sur la Shoah en Pologne'', 2019: "historians who are very present in the nationalist media, often not specialists in the Shoah (among them Bogdan Musiał, Piotr Gontarczyk, Jan Żaryn and Andrzej Nowak)".
# Sebastian Łupak and Marta Duch-Dyngosz aren't the best sources for this purpose, so I'll remove them. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 13:53, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
::One. More. Time. Oko press and Natemat are not RS for claims about BLPs. Please stop it with the [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT]].<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 14:52, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
:::{{tq|Oko press and Natemat are not RS for claims about BLPs}} That's your opinion, not the consensus. Feel free to make an entry regarding oko press on [[WP:RSN]] if you disagree. [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 17:11, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
::::Yes there is no consensus. Examples are given right in this talk page of twists and spins by oko. Therefore it is out of this bio article regardless any consensuses. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 19:55, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::Again, you are the one claiming oko press is unreliable without providing anything than allegations of "twists and spins", you can't disqualify sources because they disagree with your world view. There is no consensus that oko is unreliable, this is simply a [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]] situation. [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 20:34, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
::Behr appears to be self published.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 14:53, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
:::As for Behr, the header says "La version définitive de cet article est parue in Les Polonais et la Shoah. Une nouvelle école historique, Audrey Kichelewski, Judith Lyon-Caen, Jean-Charles Szurek, Anette Wieviorka (dir.), CNRS Éditions, Paris, 2019, p. 275-290." (The final version of this article appears in %bookname%). [[CNRS Editions]] is legit. The chapter is linked as courtesy.
:::PS. Invoking WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT means that you allege that the editor breaches consensus. There is, however no consensus for (un)reliability of oko.press (as by latest edition by Rosguill, and for which the main point for change of status has not been shown to be true), and certainly not for naTemat, which was not at all discussed in RSN. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 16:41, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
::# We can argue about Oko.press later, it's just one source.
::# Think what you may about naTemat, but it's quoting [[Jacek Leociak]] and he ''is'' an RS. He was probably quoted elsewhere as well.
::# Have you any objections to stating, based on the other sources, that he supports nationalist positions? If not, then how would you summarize them? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 19:46, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

{{tq|though he denies that it is dictated by the party}} - this is incorrect interpretation of what Zaryn said in the interview. The quote in question was torn out of context and put at the top of the interview, as a "[[clickbait]]", I guess. In fact in this respect Zaryn's argument is four-pronged (in the context of the questioned text): (A) He reasonably indicates that  [[history politics]] (HP) is carried out by nearly all governments via their functionaries. (B) HP of the state is not the same as HP of a party. (C) these functionaries are, by the election of Polish people, happen to be associated with PiS (D) these functionaries may screw up. -- In other words he "denies" nothing of the sort, only splits hairs.  Therefore this sentence must be removed. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 23:29, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

:The problem is, the linked interview clearly says (twice) that the policy is prepared not by the party but by the government ({{tq|Jeżeli ktoś rzeczywiście tworzy cokolwiek w kwestii nie historii jako nauki, ale w kwestii, którą nazywamy polityką historyczną, to oczywiście nie PiS, tylko państwo polskie i jego urzędnicy}} and {{tq|Ta teza w formie zarzutu jest tezą wewnętrznie zakłamaną, bo to nie PiS, a państwo polskie prowadzi politykę historyczną.}}), so it's not "clickbait" - he addresses accusations of extra-governmental management of HP coming i.a. from the [https://www.gdansk.pl/wiadomosci/od-wykletych-do-smolenska-jak-i-po-co-pis-przepisuje-najnowsza-historie-polski,a,61546 interview with Rafał Wnuk] from Sep 2016.
:The "he "denies" nothing of the sort, only splits hairs" shows that you don't see a distinction between state HP and party HP, but he does, or at least argues so to defend the party he is affiliated to from accusations.
:It could be reformulated that "though he asserts that it is regulated on the government and not party level". [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 08:33, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
:: {{tq|policy is prepared not by the party but by the government}} - he didnt say that and there is no document of this kind prepared by the govt . [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 17:49, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
:: I'm okay with either solution. Is [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1030171542&oldid=1030171110 this] better? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 09:04, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
:::Once again, no. Wrong summary of his words. " którą nazywamy polityką historyczną, to oczywiście nie PiS, tylko państwo polskie i jego urzędnicy. Tymi urzędnikami stali się decyzją narodu Polskiego ludzie związani z Prawem i Sprawiedliwością, bądź członkowie PiS." - i.e., he says "not PiS, but govt carries it out, but ''de facto'' members of PiS carry out this policy.  "Pytanie natomiast, czy prowadzi dobrze, czy źle." - i.e. here he weasels out of responsibility.  Since you cannot correctly summarize it yourself, you have to find a neutral secondary source which covers this moment. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]])
:::{{ping|Szmenderowiecki}} regarding [[Rafał Wnuk]]: Wnuk speaks of politisation of historians, that they try to suit the interests of a '''particular party'''. Therefore the answer of Zaryn focusing on "history politics" being the function of a state is a [[straw man argument]]. And once again, this episode of Zaryn's bio must come from secondary sources, because you are right: the answer of Zaryn makes no sense without the "question" of Wnuk, and to cover this "dialog" would be a full-blown original research. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 18:01, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
:::: This statement may be too complex, but not important enough to justify the length that would be required to explain it. I suggest we drop it. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 19:24, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
:I don't know how many times you have to be reminded that as a rule primary sources must be used only as a '''corroboration of secondary sources'''. Wikipedians cannot drastically summarize primary sources because they are not qualified for that. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 18:01, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
:: [[WP:ABOUTSELF]]. It's his attributed opinions in his article. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 19:24, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
:::I've been explaining all along, taken out of context it makes little sense. Yes, PiS has its policy. Yes, state has its policy. So what? Not to say that your summary "is not dictated by the party" is wrong, if not exactly opposite what he said. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 21:16, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
:::: I've removed it. What do you think of the section after the removal? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 09:24, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
::::: "Promoting" is still POV. [https://zw.lt/wilno-wilenszczyzna/w-poszukiwaniu-polityki-historycznej-dyskusja-zaryn-valatka/ This source] - what is it and does it meet sourcing requirements? There's also mistranslation of going on with regard to the word "mit". In English mit --> myth --> implies something false. Here it just means a "story" or "narrative" or "set of shared values". It's false equivocation. So that's also POV.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 17:09, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::: I don't think it is POV - he talks about "historical PR" a lot. The alternatives were "holds", which is arguably less encyclopedic; and "advocates", which is basically the same. Other options?
:::::: ''Znad Wilii'' is a small Polish-Lithuanian outlet headed by [[Česlav Okinčic]] with financial support from the Polish gov. [https://zw.lt/wilno-wilenszczyzna/w-poszukiwaniu-polityki-historycznej-dyskusja-zaryn-valatka The piece] covers a public debate between Żaryn and [[Rimvydas Valatka]], organized by the the Polish Institute. It was probably used as a source on Żaryn views on state historiography ("Polish historical policy... is a battle under the banners of sovereignty, justice, freedom. The state should exercise historical policy so that Poles don't mistake where there is good and where there is evil"). I'll correct that.
:::::: Not necessarily, but it does carry grand historical connotations that aren't replicated with "story", or even with "narrative".[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myth][https://www.lexico.com/definition/myth] Plus, dictionary says that's the correct translation.[https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/polish-english/mit?q=Mit] [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 20:28, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::: If you have to look up a dictionary for the word 'mit', you probably should not translate sensitive things. FYI 'mit' also means "spiced up, embellished, exaggerated story". (Znad Wilii quote sounds correct. BTW ''any'' govt can subscribe under this kind of statement. The real issue is how it is implemented. Whitewashing its own history it not a trademark of the Soviet Union.) [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 20:40, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::: I don't ''have'' to do anything other than follow [[WP:POLICY]], and [[WP:RS|Policy]] dictates that our statements be grounded in sources. VM disagreed on the translation, so I cited a dictionary. According to the dictionary, "mit" and "mitologia"[https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/polish-english/mitologia?q=Mitologia] translate to English cleanly, so I see no reason to change the wording. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 10:41, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::: As an aside, I'm <s>amused</s> astounded by the fact that VM, an advocate of accurate translations and word-for-word quotes throughout these discussions, is suddenly asking that we modify a perfectly good translation because the BLP's choice of words might paint him negatively... [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 12:22, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::::: If the translation is word for word, there is no reason to object. Furthermore, it seems clear to me that the word "myth" refers precisely to a way of telling the history for political purposes, an attitude that reflects the personality of Zaryn, according to what we read around.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 12:43, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::: I happen to agree with the second statement, but the logic in "{{tq|If the translation is word for word, there is no reason to object}}" is out of whack. Words have different meanings, some of them are not literal and understood only from context.  You and I know that the meaning on question is "[[national myth]]", but how would the reader of the short wikipedia blurb know that and not conclude that Zaryn suggests to write fairy tales? And this is exactly one of the problems with wikipedian's original research based on primary sources. In fact, even biased secondary sources can grab this opportunity to add some extra smear. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 19:16, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::: I'm fairly sure no one wants to dive into [[Translation#Fidelity and transparency|that rabbit hole]], so let's just assume Mhorg meant "accurate" and be done with. Also, I suggest we treat our reader as [[reasonable person|sufficiently acquainted]] with the material that they're either aware of, or are willing to learn about "national myths" by clicking the link.
::::::::::: Translation alone does not count as [[WP:OR]], BTW (see [[WP:TRANSCRIPTION]], [[WP:NONENG]] and [[WP:TRLA]]). [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 20:07, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::: Of course Zaryn shoots himself in the foot by using terminology "positive myths", "national mythology", etc. In order to understand what he means, you have to know the context. Let me give you an example from the mentioned article in ''Znad Wilii'', where he speaks about "[[Cursed soldiers]]". Their generalized image is what he calls a "positive myth": they did fight  the Soviet occupation after all. At the same time many of them were far from being "valiant heroes" and Lithuanians may have a less than positive memories about them as well. But certainly you are not going  to teach kids at school that Wojciech "Wolf" Wilczynski burned a house of the chief of the local PGS, together with him, his wife and his gramps. What Zaryn says there is: leave history to historians, but the ''public historical narrative'' must be in a positive light. Do we have any ''neutral secondary sources'' which discuss this element of Zaryn's worldview? [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 21:04, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::That said, I see no glaring issues with the current state of Section 1: it has no obvious nonsense. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 21:04, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::P.S. Zaryn has the whole book, "Polska pamięć. O historii i polityce historycznej”, and the source of wisdom about Zaryn's views on history politics must be a neutral review this book, rather than random blurbs from random newspapers. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 21:15, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::: I understand perfectly what he means, and indeed ''he'' is shooting ''himself'' in the foot. We're not liable for his choice of words, and can't edit translations to suit our fancy. If context is needed, we can link [[national myth]].
::::::: The thing is Żaryn is also a public figure, and he lets loose on newspapers and other media often enough that, were we to discard their timely coverage, we'd wrong both him and our readers. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 12:10, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::: I'm ok with the use of "national myth" wikilink, that's pretty much what Zaryn meant, impossible to get around it.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 12:43, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

{{od}}

{{re|CPCEnjoyer|Lembit Staan|Mhorg|Szmenderowiecki|Volunteer Marek}} Seems to me that we've exhausted the discussion on section 1. The final draft is [[#S1ver2|here]]. Are there any other objections? Can we move ahead with inclusion, or does this still require an RfC? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 15:40, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

:Sounds fine to me. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 16:56, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
:All good with me, I think it is fine as it is. [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 01:08, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
:For me the part is ready to be inserted in the article.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 08:57, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
: I have no objections with the usage of the sources cited, although the "reference bombing" leaves bad impression and clearly several of them are irrelevant to this section or redundant. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 15:43, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
:: This is mainly the result of trying to deal with objections by condensing the text as much as possible, while keeping as many good sources as possible. Perhaps instead of cutting sources we can combine them in a footnote, as is sometimes done? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 15:53, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
:::I see. You cut the text, but left the footnotes. Some of them, good or bad, IMO became irrelevant. Please review. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 17:16, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
:::: It's been done before in similar situations, though IIRC there's a way to do that that exposes the refs directly in the footnote.
:::: Any particular refs that you deem irrelevant? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 19:00, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

====State of the consensus (section 1)====
I believe we have consensus to include this section as presented. Correct? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:51, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
:It’s too long for what info it’s trying to convey and good chunk of it is undue. It’s just… better than the rest of the proposals here but that’s not saying much.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 22:56, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
:Actually looking at it again this one suffers from the questionable-translation-of-primary-sources which is OR as well.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 23:27, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
::In my opinion for this section we have come to do a good job. We can move on to other sections.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 08:11, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

====References (section 1)====
{{collapse top|title=References}}

{{notelist}}
{{reftalk|
# <ref name=":12">{{Cite journal|last=Libionka|first=Dariusz|date=2013-12-02|title=Truth About Camps, or the Uneventful 1942|url=https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/841/812|journal=Holocaust Studies and Materials|pages=579-589|doi=10.32927/zzsim.841}}</ref>
# <ref name=":13">{{Cite journal|last=Zalewski|first=Frédéric|date=2020|title=Les Marches de l’Indépendance à Varsovie. Recompositions et transformations des droites extrêmes depuis les années 2000 en Pologne|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/27005499|journal=Cultures et Conflits|language=fr|issue=117|pages=53|issn=1157-996X}}</ref>
# <ref name=":21">{{Cite web|last=Kalukin|first=Rafał|date=2018-03-20|title=Senator Żaryn i obce siły|url=https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1742096,1,senator-zaryn-i-jego-pozytywne-mity-na-temat-polskosci.read|url-status=live|archive-url=http://janzaryn.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/polityka_2018_03_21_dzieje_bez_grzechu__pdf_bn_k_p.pdf|archive-date=2018-03-21|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Polityka|language=pl}}</ref>
}}
{{collapse bottom}}

=== Section 2 ===
{{anchor|S2ver2}}{{collapse top|title=Section 2}}
Żaryn believes that anti-Semitism in [[Interwar Poland]] was reinforced by "rational thinking",<ref name=":19">{{Cite web|date=2018-02-22|title=Best of "Onet Opinie". Jan Żaryn gościem Andrzeja Stankiewicza|url=https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/opinie/best-of-onet-opinie-jan-zaryn-gosciem-andrzeja-stankiewicza/qg06n91|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Onet Wiadomości|language=pl|quote=Nie, nie jesteśmy niepokalanym narodem. Przed wojną też był antysemityzm, ale on też miał swoje umocowanie w racjonalnym myśleniu.}}</ref> further arguing that Polish-Jewish "tensions" intensified mostly due to economic reasons.<ref name=":21" /><ref name=":12" /><ref name=":18">{{Cite journal|last=Koźmińska-Frejlak|first=Ewa|date=2009-11-09|title=Edukacja czy dialog z cieniami… Kilka uwag na marginesie „Tek edukacyjnych” Polacy ratujący Żydów w latach II wojny światowej|url=https://zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/330/357/667|journal=Zagłada Żydów. Studia i Materiały|language=pl|issue=5|pages=467-480|doi=10.32927/ZZSiM.330}}</ref> Historian [[Dariusz Libionka]] disagrees with the latter statement. Criticizing Żaryn's article ''Holocaust'',<ref>{{Cite web |last=Żaryn |first=Jan |title=The Holocaust |url=https://en.truthaboutcamps.eu/thn/holocaust/15609,The-Holocaust.html |access-date=2021-07-02 |website=Truth About Camps {{!}} W imię prawdy historycznej |language=en}}</ref> Libionka points out many errors and sloppy statements, and states that Żaryn "does not know basic facts" about World War II. He notes that, while Żaryn's works on other subjects are often "valuable historical literature", those on Polish-Jewish relations are tainted by his "ideological sympathies and inspirations".<ref name="Libionka 2013">{{Cite journal |last=Libionka |first=Dariusz |date=2013 |title=“Truth About Camps” or the Uneventful 1942 |url=https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/841/812 |journal=Zagłada Żydów. Studia i Materiały Holocaust Studies and Materials |pages=579-589}}</ref>

Criticizing Żaryn's introduction to the educational booklet ''Polacy ratujący Żydów w latach II wojny światowej'' (''Polish rescuers of Jews during World War II''),<ref>{{Cite book |last=Żaryn |first=Jan |title=Polacy ratujący Żydów w latach II wojny światowej |publisher=Instytut Pamięci Narodowej |year=2008 |isbn=987-83-7629-008-9 |editor-last=Chojnacki |editor-first=Piotr |location=Warsaw |pages=5-11 |chapter=Wprowadzenie |editor-last2=Mazek |editor-first2=Dorota}}</ref> Ewa Koźmińska-Frejlak writes that Żaryn is advancing his own views rather than simply presenting facts, leaving the impression that he is trying to "[[blaming the victim|blame the victim]]" (the Jews) in order to diminish the responsibility assigned to Poles.<ref name=":18" />
{{collapse bottom}}
{{re|Volunteer Marek}}

{{quote|Żaryn argues that the tensions between Jews and other nations in [[Interwar Poland]] were mostly due to economic reasons.<ref name=":21" /><ref name=":12" /><ref name=":17">{{Cite web|last=Libionka|first=Dariusz|date=2015-12-01|title=W poszukiwaniu miliona Sprawiedliwych|url=https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/view/512/531|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-09|website=www.zagladazydow.pl|language=pl|doi=10.32927/ZZSiM.512|quote=}}</ref><ref name=":18">{{Cite journal|last=Koźmińska-Frejlak|first=Ewa|date=2009-11-09|title=Edukacja czy dialog z cieniami… Kilka uwag na marginesie „Tek edukacyjnych” Polacy ratujący Żydów w latach II wojny światowej|url=https://zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/330/357/667|journal=Zagłada Żydów. Studia i Materiały|language=pl|issue=5|pages=467-480|doi=10.32927/ZZSiM.330}}</ref> '''Scholars dispute this characterization'''.<ref name=":17" /><ref name=":18" /><ref name="Libionka 2013">{{Cite journal |last=Libionka |first=Dariusz |date=2013 |title=“Truth About Camps” or the Uneventful 1942 |url=https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/841/812 |journal=Zagłada Żydów. Studia i Materiały Holocaust Studies and Materials |pages=579-589}}</ref>}}

{{reftalk|
* <ref name=":12">{{Cite journal|last=Libionka|first=Dariusz|date=2013-12-02|title=Truth About Camps, or the Uneventful 1942|url=https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/841/812|journal=Holocaust Studies and Materials|pages=579-589|doi=10.32927/zzsim.841}}</ref>
* <ref name=":17">{{Cite web|last=Libionka|first=Dariusz|date=2015-12-01|title=W poszukiwaniu miliona Sprawiedliwych|url=https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/view/512/531|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-09|website=www.zagladazydow.pl|language=pl|doi=10.32927/ZZSiM.512|quote=}}</ref>
* <ref name=":18">{{Cite journal|last=Koźmińska-Frejlak|first=Ewa|date=2009-11-09|title=Edukacja czy dialog z cieniami… Kilka uwag na marginesie „Tek edukacyjnych” Polacy ratujący Żydów w latach II wojny światowej|url=https://zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/330/357/667|journal=Zagłada Żydów. Studia i Materiały|language=pl|issue=5|pages=467-480|doi=10.32927/ZZSiM.330}}</ref>
* <ref name=":21">{{Cite web|last=Kalukin|first=Rafał|date=2018-03-20|title=Senator Żaryn i obce siły|url=https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1742096,1,senator-zaryn-i-jego-pozytywne-mity-na-temat-polskosci.read|url-status=live|archive-url=http://janzaryn.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/polityka_2018_03_21_dzieje_bez_grzechu__pdf_bn_k_p.pdf|archive-date=2018-03-21|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Polityka|language=pl}}</ref>
}}

# Koźmińska-Frejlak, ''Edukacja czy dialog z cieniami'', 2009: {{ping|Mhorg|Szmenderowiecki}} Could you kindly give us an excerpt from pp. 471-472?
# Libionka, ''“Truth About Camps” or the Uneventful 1942'', 2013: Extensive quote given at [[Talk:Jan Żaryn/Archive 1#Other sources]]: "Żaryn repeats the ritual formula that the Polish-Jewish “tensions” intensified at the end of the 1930s “primarily on economic grounds.” It shows that the author understood neither the texts... [of several authors] and by hundreds of their imitators nor articles from the nationalist press... Anti-Jewish writers and leaders of anti-Semitic organizations would surely have been surprised if they had heard that they reduced the “Jewish threat” to economic considerations."
# Libionka, ''W poszukiwaniu miliona Sprawiedliwych'', 2015: Don't have time ATM to look for the specific quote. {{ping|Mhorg|Szmenderowiecki}} Help would be appreciated.

These are all open sources, and links have been provided. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 12:23, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
:The issue here is with the bolded part. First, this isn’t “scholars”. This is two authors. Libionka and Kozminsks Frejlak. So “scholars” would need to be replaced with their names. Attributed. However, it’s not two either. It’s really one. Libionka. While Kozminska-Frejlak’s tone seems to be derogatory in her review she never actually “disputed” anything. At least in that part. She just says “Zaryn thinks this. Zaryn says that”.
:Separate question is whether this is actually WP:DUE. Is this important? Central to this guy’s BLP? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 12:45, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
:Once this is attributed it may be ok except as VM says above - is this central to him? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 15:00, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
:: No, it’s not. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 16:25, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
:About ''Edukacja czy dialog z cieniami'' source, I read: "''Konflikt polsko-żydowski – często bardzo ostry w słowach antysemityzm – dotyczył głównie kwestii ekonomicznych”'' (The Polish-Jewish conflict - often very sharp in words anti-Semitism - mainly concerned economic issues"). So, this part is confirmed.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 20:11, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
:@Francois Robere
{{cot|Quotes}}
:Koźmińska-Frejlak: {{tq|Lektura napisanego przez Jana Żaryna „Wprowadzenia” do Materiałów dla nauczyciela również nie pozostawia złudzeń, że bardziej niż na przedstawieniu faktów autorowi zależało na przybliżeniu stanowiska zajmowanego przez niego w sporach o stosunek polskiego społeczeństwa do Zagłady, a przy okazji na obronie określonej wizji Polski i polskości [...]}} (detailed explanation of his train of thought) {{tq|Rozumowanie Żaryna w tej części nieuchronnie prowadzi do wniosku, zresztą wyrażonego explicite, że to sami Żydzi swym postępowaniem kolosalnie utrudnili przyjście im z pomocą w latach próby. Czytamy: „Polonizacja Żydów w czasie okupacji niemieckiej warunkowała szansę ich uratowania, w tym podjęcie przez nich heroicznej decyzji o przejściu na »stronę aryjską«”18. Jak w takiej sytuacji można rozliczać polskie społeczeństwo – chciałoby się zapytać... Żaryn nie stroni także od ukazywania „przewin” polskiego społeczeństwa. Tyle tylko, że zawsze znajduje dla nich na pozór racjonalne uzasadnienie (jak w przypadku numerus nullus), czasem pokazuje, że symetryczne zasady dyskryminacyjne stosowane były także po stronie żydowskiej, niekiedy je po prostu bagatelizuje i zbywa.}}
:Libionka (3): remove, have "Truth about camps" text stay. It's anyway the same scholar. Please don't ask for confirmation.
{{cob}}
: [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 17:47, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
: Besides, for starter, what I have originally written was "though some scholars have disputed this characterisation of Polish-Jewish relations" instead of the bolded sentence, which IMHO sounds more appropriate.
: For the "mainly economic reasons", I'd propose citing [https://przystanekhistoria.pl/pa2/tematy/roman-dmowski/32767,Endecja-cenne-dziedzictwo.pdf Żaryn] in addition to the sources, in which he claims that the nationalist parties were trying to soothe tensions while trying to appeal to the Polish peasantry and artisans. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Szmenderowiecki|contribs]]) 21:03, 23 June 2021 (UTC)</span>

:: {{re|Szmenderowiecki|Mhorg}} Thanks for the translation. There's one particular statement there I find outrageous, assuming I read it correctly: "the Jewish minority... was shut off from the needs of the common folk, became competitive and rejected modernization... which under the conditions the economic crisis gave rise to conflicts"...
:: {{re|Volunteer Marek|Piotrus}} The importance of this is twofold: first, it's a form of denial of antisemitism which connects very well with everything else we have on him. Second, as an historian, such harsh criticisms by other historians (who are no less qualified in those areas, to say the least) is notable. We should probably quote more from the sources (with attribution), rather than the approach we took thus far to keep everyone happy - less. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 20:34, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
::: No this is not a denial of antisemitism. I strongly recommend you to re-read the [[antisemitism]] article (unless it was radically rewritten since the last time (long ago) I edited it. Economic excuses is one of the three (or four) major roots of antisemitism. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 23:36, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
::::So just to be clear, you are saying it ''is'' antisemitism? <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 08:00, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I've added more content to [[#Split by sections|#2]] from previous revisions, and removed the '''highlight'''. Please review. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 10:11, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
:The stuff on "immaculate" (???)? No. We '''just went over how you guys were mistranslating the interview''' to have it say the opposite of what the man actually said. Right above. His quote was falsified. Now you want to use the same source for some other quote. No. This is '''exactly why''' we generally avoid WP:PRIMARY sources. Translating such sources is original research even under the best of circumstances. And here we are far from best circumstances as the total misrepresentation of one quote already shows.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 17:04, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
:: It's [[WP:ABOUTSELF]], and I've no problem adding his exact words in a footnote: "Nie, nie jesteśmy niepokalanym narodem. Przed wojną też był antysemityzm, ale on też miał swoje umocowanie w racjonalnym myśleniu".[https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/prof-jan-zaryn-nie-jestesmy-narodem-niepokalanym/1kcyw3y] How would you translate this? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 20:38, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
::{{reply-to|Volunteer Marek}} No, translating text is not considered [[WP:OR]], see [[WP:TRANSCRIPTION]]. [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 17:06, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
:::When you mistranslated the source to say the opposite of what it says? Yeah I guess that’s not “OR” but even worse. But yeah translating primary sources is indeed OR.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 19:20, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
::::No, it is not original research, read what I sent. [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 20:26, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
::::: Yes, it is [[WP:OR]].- <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 21:13, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::{{tq|Faithfully translating sourced material into English, or transcribing spoken words from audio or video sources, is not considered original research. For information on how to handle sources that require translation, see WP:Verifiability § Non-English sources.}} [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 21:20, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::: {{tq|Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so.}} - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 21:28, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::Don't feed trolls. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 21:42, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::Resorting to [[WP:PA]] because you can't provide an argument for your stonewalling?
::::::::::Also {{reply-to|GizzyCatBella}} did you not read what I sent? [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 22:08, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::People who translate primary sources receive copyrights for their translations. It’s considered scholarly original research. What WP:TRANSCRIPTION is talking about is *faithful* translation  of secondary sources. That’s not the case here. Neither the “faithful” nor the “secondary” part.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 14:20, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::{{tq|People who translate primary sources receive copyrights for their translations. It’s considered scholarly original research.}} Receiving copyrights is in no way "scholarly original research". If you read the terms under which we contribute, everyone who writes here retains copyright, regardless in which language it is published and from which source something is published, so long as we don't violate their copyrights (see [[WP:C]] and [[Wikipedia:Text_of_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_3.0_Unported_License|this]]). Copyrights are not violated if someone is misquoted, though obviously it is not desired for other reasons. Not that I particularly care about the legalese or the copyright at all, but that's how it looks.
:::::::::::The stuff contributed isn't always perfect (as has been demonstrated), but correcting it to a better translation rectifies the problem. And, again, I have tried my best, and if I misheard something and someone pointed that out and indeed you were right, I corrected it swiftly, and that is how I see the discussion going smoothly.
:::::::::::[[WP:TRANSCRIPTION]] and [[WP:RSUE]] are two parts of guidelines that expressly permit translating stuff, and, given the not-so-large amount of sources in English, we are forced to do that with Polish. While {{tq|translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians}}, it isn't true that translations by Wikipedians are not allowed as OR. If you are able to find an RS translation for all these fragments - go and add it, if it is any different from mine. Again, if you aren't fine with the translation given - provide yours. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 17:37, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
{{od}}

Are everyone done now? Can we get back to the text? {{re|Volunteer Marek}} any objections not addressed above? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 12:38, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
:Yes. Same one as before. The stuff based on someone’s clumsy (“immaculate”) if not outright wrong (pretending Zaryn said the opposite of what he actually said) translation of a primary source is a NO.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 14:20, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
:# According to what policy? [[WP:TRANSCRIPTION]] says nothing about "secondary sources", just "sourced material". 
:# [[WP:TRLA]] gives a list of Wikipedians who are capable, among others, of "[helping] you with translating reliable sources that are used to support parts of articles". Piotrus is on that list - shall we ping him?
:# Alternatively, you can suggest a translation yourself.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1030424183&oldid=1030423368&diffmode=source] [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 15:19, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
::We have WP:PRIMARY. And we *just saw* an instance where an editor tried to translate a primary source and ended up claiming that the BLP subject said the OPPOSITE of what the subject actually said. And then you insisted on including that false translation in the article. Now you’re trying to brush it off as nothing serious (it was quite serious) and are trying to include more user-generated translations from a primary source. And this for something that’s not all that DUE in the first place. How about we learn our lesson and don’t? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 05:08, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
:::# [[WP:PRIMARY]] has an exception for "straightforward, descriptive statements of facts" - like Żaryn's words, which also fall under [[WP:ABOUTSELF]]. There's also [[WP:TRANSCRIPTION]] and [[WP:RSUE]], both of which support this use.
:::# That "instance" was part of the existing text, not my suggestion,[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1030026154&oldid=1030025799&diffmode=source] and I did not "insist" on including it - in fact I  clearly stated that {{tq|I couldn't care less}}.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&type=revision&diff=1030062960&oldid=1030062047&diffmode=source] You've read my comment, you replied to it (with yet another claim that isn't backed by Policy [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1030066005&oldid=1030064363&diffmode=source][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_Żaryn&diff=1030082157&oldid=1030081041&diffmode=source]), and now you're circling back to something you know isn't true?
:::# Since we started these discussions the article grew almost seventeenfold, from [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_%C5%BBaryn&oldid=1004138693 less than 2.5k] to [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_%C5%BBaryn&oldid=1030320810 over 39k]. There are bound to be errors - you just happen to have found the worst of them, and now you're hanging on to it like the future of Wikipedia depended on it. It doesn't. Multiple policies support this use, and there's no reason not to follow them. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 10:08, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::Obviously this isn’t a case of “straightforward descriptive statements of facts” as we just saw with the false translation of what he said about Jedwabne. Same here with difficult to translate words like “immaculate” and “umocowani”. The exception in WP:PRIMARY is there for non controversial stuff. This here? It’s controversial.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 17:18, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::: I don't know about that. I looked in several dictionaries and they all translate "niepokalany" as "immaculate", as do [[:pl:Dogmat o Niepokalanym Poczęciu Najświętszej Maryi Panny|our Polish colleagues]]. But again, you're more than welcome to suggest a translation of your own. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 19:57, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::As anyone who's done translations knows, the meaning of words depends on context. Like "cool". Or "troll". Here the word just means "not guiltless" or, simpler, "innocent".<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 02:05, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::: Right. And if we changed "immaculate" to "innocent", will the meaning of the quote change substantially? Will it suddenly mean something completely different? It won't, which means the quote is accurate enough, and this whole discussion on on policy was useless. As for the word itself: Żaryn's entire public persona is based on two things: that he's an historian, and that he's a devout Catholic. One can assume he knows what "immaculate" means. Can we change it? Yes, we can - there are other words that we can use that won't change the essence of the quote, such as "perfect" ("innocent" is too mellow) - but then we'd be taking out the subtext that Żaryn himself injected to the phrase with his choice of words. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:46, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

{{od}}

{{ping|CPCEnjoyer|Lembit Staan|Mhorg|Piotrus|Szmenderowiecki|Volunteer Marek}} Any other comments on section 2? Note the final draft is [[#Split by sections|here]], and now includes the entire paragraph (when we started it was only about the statement "scholars dispute this characterization"). Again I want to know if this is something we should discuss further, include as-is, or RfC. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 10:25, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

:I believe it's fine content-wise, though I would propose a little change in the structuring of the sentence.
:{{tq|He argues that the tensions between Jews and other peoples in Interwar Poland were mostly due to economic reasons. Scholars dispute this characterization;}}
:I think it would be good to perhaps join these two sentences together, like:
:"He argues that the tensions between Jews and other peoples in Interwar Poland were mostly due to economic reasons, a characterization disputed by scholars;"
:Though this really is a minor "issue", if you can call it that, and more of a suggestion. [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 10:38, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
:I see a problem with "Scholars dispute this characterization". Right now this is really "Two scholars dispute this". Libionka is named and cited. Unless more scholars are found the other scholar should attributed in a single sentence, or this formulation dropped. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 10:40, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
::I think "Scholars dispute this characterization;" is mostly used to preface Dariusz's comments on the matter. Though you are right, perhaps we should also include what the other scholar said and attribute it after. [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 10:48, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
::: It is, though it's also factually correct (scholars ''have'' refuted that claim numerous times, just not in the context of Żaryn). {{re|Piotrus|CPCEnjoyer}} How about  [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1030850915&oldid=1030850073 this]? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:01, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
:::: {{u|François Robere}}, That would be fine with me. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 04:32, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
:::: "not in the context of Zaryn". Gee. Maybe this is ... [[WP:SYNTH]]esis? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 02:03, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::Can you like, ''read'' the dif or the Section 2 above? The comment you claim to be synthesis was rewritten. [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 11:19, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::::: That's exactly my point..? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:47, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

::Nothing more is to be found specifically in the context of Jan Żaryn ("JŻ says X and this is BS" or something similar), but there are many other scholars who have said "Some historians said X and this is BS" (same X), so yes, I'd agree with François Robere that, at least from the non-conservative side of historians, the claim is hotly contested in general, and not specifically about Żaryn. While I'd prefer the earlier version, if that's the only bone of contention, I think we should simply move on. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 15:18, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I wasted quite some time to read carefully the sources cited, and as usual in this article, I have serious objections to most of the text of  part 2. I will write them down later, because I have a real life as well. (I have  no issues with the sources, but, as usual with this bio, with misuse of the sources.) [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 15:32, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

===== "miał swoje umocowanie w racjonalnym myśleniu" =====
OK, let me start with the issue debated above.

While the "nepokalany" piece has its translation issues, the "umocowanie" is a glaring example of what can go wrong with "dictinoary-based" translation and quoting out of context. If you read the suggested translation, {{tq|the anti-Semitism "also had its roots in rational thinking."}}, you will probably think: "This Zaryn must be out of his mind. I am a computer scientist, rational thinking is my whole, so now what? Because of this I am  bound to become an anti-Semite? And this doped tramp in a tent in Philadelphia streets is safe?" Really???" If the translator was not so eager to cherry-pick something negative of Zyran, they would read the original text a bit further and maybe, just maybe, would have guessed the correct translation: "the anti-Semitism was reinforced by rational arguments [here goes the skipped continuation:] .... such as: the Jews who lived in the territories of [[Pomerania]], [[Greater Poland Voivodship]] and [[Silesia]] were much in favor for these lands to belong to Germany. Certainly this didn't improve Polish attitudes to the Jews." - And let me think a bit: what does this resemble? Let me read Wikipedia a bit... Yes!! This is one of the standard elements of anti-Semitism: reinforcement by rationalizing!

Concluding, wikipedian's ignorant translation makes it exactly upside down: it posits Zaryn as a moron, while in fact he was explaining a bullet from "Anti-Semitism-101" slides. In order to render this small piece of a [[primary source]] correctly, the translator must know well at least 4 (four) things: (A) Polish language (B) Polish culture and history (C) what is anti-Semitism, and finally, (D) that cherry-picking is ''bad'' idea. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 23:31, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

:First, I hope that all other editors and I are not writing about him as if that person were a moron. Whether his arguments make sense for me, or you, is irrelevant. Second, it's not even my fragment, but it was supported by the text.
:Looking at the whole argument, I don't really see your point. On the one hand, you write that {{tq|economic excuses is one of the three (or four) major roots of antisemitism.}} (addressing "denial of antisemitism" claim); we have another example here (political excuse, let's name it); on the other hand, you say that he was somehow misquoted/taken out of context which makes him look somehow worse than he is. I have hard times understanding what exactly you want to do with the fragment.
:Addressing my (and my colleagues') supposed total ignorance about points A-C: the mere fact he says that anti-Semitism "had its roots in rational thinking" at any point is more than enough for me. It doesn't matter which reasoning/excuse he picked. Note that he's not saying that "they thought they were being rational while being hostile against Jews, seeing them as detrimental to the Polish independence", as we'd write in Wikipedia, but says it without attributing that opinion to Poles of the time. To rephrase his quote, "anti-Semitism was a phenomenon based on rational arguments. For instance, in 1918-19 Jews were hindering efforts to create an independent Polish state in the German partition - sure, they could have had their arguments to do so, but they also drew the ire of Poles". It sounds like a pretty lousy [[rationalization (psychology)|rationalisation]] attempt to me.
:Tl;dr: the quote should stay as is. The example he gives contributes nothing to the context and does not distort his opinion, contrary to what some say here. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 13:27, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::{{tq|the mere fact he says that anti-Semitism "had its roots in rational thinking" at any point is more than enough for me}} He doesn't freaking say that!!! That's the whole freaking point!!! He says something completely different. BLP applies to freaking talk pages so '''STOP VIOLATING BLP''' by smearing this guy with your POV false translations!
::This is the '''second''' time you've done this. First you falsely translated where he says "there were Polish collaborators in Jedwabne" to "there were NO Polish collaborators in Jedwabne". Now you're trying to falsely translate the fact that he said that anti-semities tried to "rationalize" their prejudice to pretend he said that "anti-semitism had roots in rational thinking". 
::Just stop. BLP is a policy.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 14:51, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::: VM, we're all entitled to our opinions on this TP, and you should give others [[WP:AGF|the benefit of the doubt]] that they're reading the text differently than you do, rather than trying to intentionally smear the BLP. Szmenderowiecki's reading, which is also mine and CPCEnjoyer's, is at least as valid as yours and Lembit Staan's. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 16:28, 29 June 2021 (UTC) 
::::No, “your reading” of the translation is not “just as valid” anymore than translating when the guy says “there were Polish collaborators” to “there were NO Polish collaborators” is. This isn’t about “different reading of the text” or some such post modernist nonsense, it’s, just, wrong.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 14:05, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
:: {{tq|Note that he's not saying that "they thought they were being rational while being hostile against Jews, seeing them as detrimental to the Polish independence", as we'd write in Wikipedia, but says it without attributing that opinion to Poles of the time.}} {{emoji|1F448}} This. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 16:28, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
(more to follow; with tentative conclusion that the whole section 2 should go) [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 01:12, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
:You have "''umocowanie w racjonalnym myśleniu''" that's for sure [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]]. Congrats on your strength to endure all of this. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 01:22, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
:Right. He's not saying that these were "rational" arguments, he's saying that people who made the arguments tried to rationalize their attidues. ... ... ... Ahem: THIS IS WHY WE DON'T TRANSLATE PRIMARY SOURCES OURSELVES!!!! It's original research! Usually bad, POV, original research.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 02:02, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
:I will just ignore the strawman in the first part of your reply, because no rational human being would respond like that and frankly might be the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.
:To address your "proper translation" here is the original quote:
:{{tq|Przed wojną też był antysemityzm, ale on też miał swoje umocowanie w racjonalnym myśleniu, np. w takim, że na terenie powiedzmy Pomorza, Wielkopolski i Śląska, Żydzi, którzy tam mieszkali, optowali w roku 1918, żeby te tereny należały do Niemiec. Mieli swoje racje, ale to miało wywołać prożydowskie emocje?}}[https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/prof-jan-zaryn-nie-jestesmy-narodem-niepokalanym/1kcyw3y]
:It is very obvious what he means to imply with his "umocowanie w racjonalnym myśleniu" comment, this is further supported by his last sentence: "Mieli swoje racje, ale to miało wywołać prożydowskie emocje?" You imply that the translation is "ignorant" because we do not understand "Polish language, culture & history", yet clearly you are the one who does not understand the implications of what he said. {{ping|Szmenderowiecki|p=,}} what do you think? I believe the "roots in rational thinking" translation is correct and that the last comment really lets Jan's opinion regarding anti-semitism shine. [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 12:19, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::{{tq|I will just ignore the strawman in the first part of your reply, because no rational human being would respond like that and frankly might be the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.}} Please read [[WP:NPA]].<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 12:56, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
:::What personal attack? Me saying that Lembit Staan's strawman's arguments are ridiculous? Basically everything in the sentence you quoted is addressed to him, not Lembit Staan. Also, civility goes both ways, [[WP:STRAWMAN]]: {{tq|Quoting others out of context and other forms of straw man argument are against the civility policy}} [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 13:08, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::::Yeah that as well as the insult in your statement "no rational human being". Read [[WP:NPA]].<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 14:53, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::But I've read it? Nowhere did I make a comment regarding Lembit Staan themselves, everything I've said was directed at his strawman, I commented on the content, not the contributor. Please stop trying to spin this. [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 14:58, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::So when you wrote "most ridiculous thing I've ever read" that... wasn't about "Lembit Staan themselves". Come on. Who's spinning here? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 15:14, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::::Yes, it was about the argument his strawman presented, though if he has taken offense from that I apologize as it was not my intention to "personally attack" him.
:::::::Also, could you please help us with translation? Since you disagree with our version, I am sure you can provide the "proper" version and we can take a look at it, thank you, [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 15:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
: First of all, calm down. This is not a question of translation but of interpretation, and we could have the same argument in English or any other language.
: {{quote|Nie, nie jesteśmy niepokalanym narodem. Przed wojną też był antysemityzm, ale on też miał swoje umocowanie w racjonalnym myśleniu, np. w takim, że na terenie powiedzmy Pomorza, Wielkopolski i Śląska, Żydzi, którzy tam mieszkali, optowali w roku 1918, żeby te tereny należały do Niemiec. Mieli swoje racje, ale to miało wywołać prożydowskie emocje?}}
: He starts with "We're not perfect. Antisemitism existed, ''but'' it was also grounded in rational thinking." That "but"? Not a lot of ways you can read that.
: Then the last sentence - "Mieli swoje racje, ale to miało wywołać prożydowskie emocje?" - "[The Jews] had their reasons, but were [their acts] supposed to evoke pro-Jewish emotions?" reads as "When the Jews did so and so, how were the Poles supposed to react?", which seems like a rationalization of antisemitic attitudes, rather than a scholarly explanation on the formation of stereotypes. After all, the whole point of [[stereotype]]s (and [[conspiracy theory|conspiracy theories]], and [[blood libel]]s, and [[prejudice]], and a whole lot more) is that of ''rational elements embedded in an irrational framework'' - but that's not what Żaryn suggests; Żaryn just suggests that the prejudice was a ''rational'' reaction. Therein lies the problem, and our disagreement.
: Is there anything in that interview that could establish one reading over the other? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 12:41, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
:: Please don't tell other editors to "calm down". That's a violation of [[WP:CIVIL]]. Yes, multiple editors are frustrated with these repeated attempts at falsely translating a primary source in a very POV way, in a way which says the OPPOSITE of what the subject says, since that's a sanctionable BLP violation, and the persistent [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT]] that accompanies these efforts, but doesn't give you the right to insult them.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 12:53, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
:::I think it would be more productive to address the actual arguments instead of [[WP:ASPERSIONS|casting aspersions]], you have the whole quote listed out and its meaning is very obvious; but sure, can you provide your own "proper" translation so ''we'' can examine it? [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 13:13, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::: Or... an appeal to an editor to put their emotions aside and stay on-topic, since they're not the only ones who are tired of this discussion and have better things to do.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1030887651&oldid=1030885476&diffmode=source] It was either that or something about [[WP:AGF]], and I figured ''that'' would be less empathic. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 13:57, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::::Stop insulting other editors. Stop trying to taunt other editors by condescending to them. And most of all stop it with the POV [[WP:OR|original research]] where you keep falsely mis-translating [[WP:PRIMARY]] sources and then try to "rationalize" it with some irrelevant policies about transcription. 
::::BLP applies to talk pages. Icewhiz got banned for creating attack pages on BLPs. In one instance he [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Marek_Jan_Chodakiewicz&diff=prev&oldid=831609853 falsified a quote by a BLP subject to smear them]. When that [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism_in_Poland/Workshop#WP:ABOUTSELF_does_not_justify_using_anti-semitic_and_fringe_sources was brought up] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism_in_Poland/Workshop&diff=prev&oldid=903137372 you defended that] by claiming it was just "about self" and other such (even though "about self" is irrelevant when we're talking about a straight up falsification of what the subject said). This is deja vu. Why are we going through the same problem again, after all this time and all the warnings and blocks? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 14:57, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
To stop this chat, let me notice that regardless who is right and who is wrong, since we have here two ''opposite'' readings of the primary source, '''this statement is out of the window, since it is no longer a trivial translation''', but an interpretation by a wikipedian. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 18:47, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
: {{re|Lembit Staan}} I agree it's no longer trivial, which is why I wanted to ask what you'd think about asking for advice in some other venue, or moving this statement to its own RfC section. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 18:56, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::There is nothing to ask; Since one cannot read Zaryn's brain, any choice of interpretation of what he said would be original research no matter how many wikipedians !vote.  [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 19:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
:::What?
:::No one is claiming we should read his brain, it's simply you claiming that a translation is "false" when it clearly is not. [[User:CPCEnjoyer|CPCEnjoyer]] ([[User talk:CPCEnjoyer|talk]]) 19:59, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::: I disagree. Your translation and mine are not substantially different, but our ''reading'' of the quote is; and you can see some native speakers disagree with yours, just as some agree. So it's not a matter of translation, but of  interpretation, and for that an RfC could be useful.
::: Regarding mind reading - why bother when you can just email the man and ask? Granted, it won't hold for [[WP:RS]], but I'll take your word for it. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 20:20, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::::I'd agree third party opinion is badly needed here. I'm afraid we are bound to arrive (or have arrived) at an editorial impasse (again!), so I'd  be all for requesting it. We anyway have nothing to lose in terms of quality if we do that, and hopefully we will be able to move forward instead of writing treatises over the meaning of a single phrase (c'mon, we are not scholars of the US Constitution).
::::Btw, the draft in the collapsible box does not give an interpretation of his quote (which we obviously shouldn't), so there's no OR to begin with. Whether he was misquoted (or any other contentious issues) can be resolved by advice/input of fellow Wikipedians. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 21:32, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::That’s not how this works. This is not how any of it works. You can’t do OR and put it in the article. You guys already badly mistranslated one quote, now you want to mistranslate another and when other editors object you’re like “let’s get a third opinion”. Just no. It’s original research, this is a BLP, stop trying to turn this into an attack page with your false translations of primary sources.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 14:03, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
::: BTW (thanks for reminding me), Ewa Koźmińska-Frejak (''Edukacja czy dialog z cieniami'', 2009) writes this about one of his texts: "Żaryn's reasoning... leads inevitably to the conclusion, which he states explicitly, that it was the conduct of the Jews themselves that made them colossally difficult to aid... How could Polish society be held accountable under such circumstances, one could ask... Żaryn does not shy away from exposing the "faults" of Polish society, but he always finds a seemingly rational justification for them...". Rings a bell? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 21:28, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::: {{re|Lembit Staan}} Putting interpretation aside, are these translation fragments accurate? "We're not perfect. Antisemitism existed, ''but'' it was also grounded in rational thinking.", "[The Jews] had their reasons, but were [their acts] supposed to evoke pro-Jewish emotions?" [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 08:55, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
::::No. These are not correct. This has already been pointed out half a dozen times. [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT]].<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 14:08, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
::::: Why are they not correct? How would you translate it, word for word? I'm asking because Lembit Staan's translation was interspersed with commentary, and since I think it's more about the commentary than the actual translation, I'd like to see how your (or his) verbatim translation fairs vs. mine. Will they really be so different, or - as Szmenderowiecki suggests - we'd end up realizing again[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1031032509&oldid=1031029393] that the statement in the text adequately summarizes both? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 14:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

This proposed text is based on a [[WP:PRIMARY]] source, in a language that people who want to put the text in don’t even speak - so they’re google translating or projecting their own opinions onto this guys words. This is classic no-no as far as Wikipedia policy goes.

Just drop it.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 14:10, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
: I don't recall anyone being asked, or stating on their own accord what languages they speak. Assuming that anyone who disagrees with you must be illiterate is not appropriate. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 14:53, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
::I’m not assuming anyone is illiterate. Stop it. Stop accusing me of things I didn’t do. That is also a personal attack and incivil. I did “assume” that the people mistranslating some of this text don't actually speak Polish as a native language because... they’ve said so themselves.
::Regardless, we’re simply not putting in any original research based on POV mistranslations of WP:PRIMARY sources. This is a BLP and even if somehow you got local consensus here - which you’re not even close to having, site wide consensus regarding BLPs trumps that. So seriously, just let this one go.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 21:35, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

This is the problem with doing OR based on primary sources. Leave it to others. Just drop the whole “rationalize” vs “rational thinking” part and move on to other parts.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 21:38, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

====="mostly due to economic reasons"=====
The suggested text says "a characterization disputed by sociologist Ewa Koźmińska-Frejak and historian Dariusz Libionka" -- I say, no it is not. I may be mistaken or missed something in the source cited, but if you disagree, please provide quotes which dispute this characterization. 

Please keep in mind that the suggested quote -- "Anti-Jewish writers and leaders of anti-Semitic organizations would surely have been surprised if they had heard that they reduced the “Jewish threat” to economic considerations" -- is a non-argument and goes out, because it is a false straw-man argument, because Zaryn wrote "'''mostly''' due to", therefore he did not imply that "they reduced the “Jewish threat” to economic.." In fact, Zaryn mentions other sources of anti-Semitism as well. 

Also, I doubt that someone may disprove his "mostly"; one may only question it, because I doubt there is any statistics that 30% of antiS in Poland was economic, 34% was religious, 45% was racism, 13% was belief in antisemitic canards, and 27% was politically motivated. In fact many reputable researchers argue that economic antisemitism is most dangerous because it hits the "most valuable" an average person has: his money and well-being. Yes, blood libel case are very noisy, but they are rare and in the everyday life the thought that world Jewry steals my money would bother me more than the belief that Jews crucified Jesus. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 19:25, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
: I don't think there's any doubt about what Libionka wrote in the quote that was already provided multiple times, and as long as he's as notable a source as he is, we're not going to OR analyses of his arguments.
: A quote for KF was provided earlier in this discussion, in a frame titled "quotes"; for more context we should ping {{u|Szmenderowiecki}}, who was kind enough to find it. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 21:14, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::I'm not asking to analyze Libionka's arguments. A'm asking to prove that he delivered any, i.e., the wikipedian's statement "a characterization disputed " is true. Kozminska-Frejak certainly delivered none beyond the sniggering remark cited.  [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 21:57, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::: [[Talk:Jan Żaryn/Archive 1#Other sources|Libionka]] explicitly contradicts Żaryn. What else? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 22:19, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
:::: I have answered to that. This is a strawman argument, see  above. It addition, Zaryn speaks about "Jews vs. others" not "Jews vs. Polish fascists". Not to say that there was various kind of anti-semite among Polish fascists. Please keep in mind that the major force of fascists were "middle class", i.e., those among which economic basis of anti-semitism was strongest. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 23:30, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::::: It doesn't matter. The fact is Libionka explicitly contradicts Żaryn's claim ("primarily on economic grounds") Whether you agree with him or not is beside the point. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 08:39, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

:::::: The fact is that [[Dariusz Libionka]] ''does not'' contradict Żaryn's claim. He contradicts a slightly twisted Zaryn's claim, which is called "straw man argument" (which was further twisted by the wikipedian who cited it here). And it is sad, because I consider him a reasonable historian. Given his knowledge on the issue, I would expect him to write something substantial. But this is a major problem with most scientists: they quickly go dismissive, rather than argumentative when criticizing a person they dislike. 
:::::::That said, at most what I would agree is the following text:
::::::::"Zaryn did not deny that there was anti-Semitism existed in the [[Interwar Poland]] and argued that it was supported by rational reasoning. He further argues that the Jewish-Polish tensions  in Interwar Poland intensified mostly due to economic reasons. Historian [[Dariusz Libionka]] disagrees with the latter statement." 
:::::::From the same DL's article, IMO the following overall judgement ma be used in wikipedia elsewhere:
::::::::"Criticizing Zaryn's article ''Holocaust'' at the IPN educational portal, he indicates many errors and sloppy statements in it and suggests that Zaryn does not know basic facts about World War II. Libionka further says that many works of Zaryn do have scientific importance, but his works on Jewish-Polish issues are tainted by his ideological preferences."
::::::: I do not see Ewa Koźmińska-Frejlak as a comparable expert in the issue, the authority of Libionka is sufficient here. At the same time I may consider the following piece worth of inclusion (as it goes hand in hand with Zaryn's idea about "national mythology"):
::::::::"Criticizing Zaryn's introduction to ''Polacy ratujący Żydów w latach II wojny światowej'' from the "Educational Files of IPN",  Ewa Koźmińska-Frejlak writes that rather than presenting facts, Zaryn is trying to put forth his point of view on the attitude of the Poles to the Holocaust and that the text leaves an impression of "[[blaming the victim]]" to diminish the blame put on the Poles."
::::::: [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:52, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

{{od}}

{{re|Lembit Staan}} Thank you. Something like this?
{{quote|Żaryn does not deny that there was anti-Semitism in [[Interwar Poland]], but argues that it was grounded in "rational thinking", and further argues that Polish-Jewish "tensions" in Interwar Poland intensified mostly due to economic reasons. Historian [[Dariusz Libionka]] disagrees with the latter statement; criticizing Żaryn's article ''Holocaust''[ref] he points out many errors and sloppy statements, and states that Żaryn "does not know basic facts" about World War II. He notes that, while Żaryn's works on other subjects are often "valuable historical literature", those on Polish-Jewish relations are tainted by his "ideological sympathies and inspirations".}}

{{quote|Criticizing Żaryn's introduction to the educational booklet ''Polacy ratujący Żydów w latach II wojny światowej'' (''Polish rescuers of Jews during World War II''),[ref] Ewa Koźmińska-Frejlak writes that Żaryn is advancing his own views rather than simply presenting facts, leaving the impression that he is trying to "[[blaming the victim|blame the victim]]" (the Jews) in order to diminish the responsibility assigned to Poles.}}
[[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 18:59, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
:No. It was not "grounded in rational thinking". It was "finding support in..". "Grounded" without any further explanations implies the sole mentioned origin. I suggest you to buy a good explanatory dictionary of Polish language and read what "umocowac" means.  
:Also you do not need so many quotation marks.
:The rest is IMO close to the sources cited (sure it is, because I wrote it :-). [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:20, 1 July 2021 (UTC) 
:: I know what it means, it's just that you can't exactly say that an idea was "fastened" or "fixed" in something in English. "Grounded", "anchored" - even "bolstered" - seemed like reasonable alternatives. We'll find something.
:: The quotation marks are just to stress that these are indeed the sources' words, and also to avoid copyright questions. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 20:17, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

::The context (omitted for the purpose of the quote) was this:
::Koźmińska-Frejlak summarised some of the main points of Żaryn's book. In short: 
::*Jews largely considered Polish as a foreign language, which was made possible because Interwar Poland did not force Jews to assimilate politically or culturally
::*Nationalists of the time were no obstacle for Jews, as "the Polish-Jewish conflict - oftentimes very strongly worded anti-Semitism" was mostly based on economical grounds
::*The economic tensions were exacerbated by the [[Great Depression]], which led folks to introduce ''numerus nullus'' (=banning Jews from enrolling at universities) as a means to protect the Polish ''intelligentsia'' from unemployment; the economical boycott was motivated by the fact Jewish businesses were sieving out applicants on a religious basis and fellow Jews were shunned if they employed Christians;
::*Catholics were accusing Jews of being detrimental to the culture; Jews were becoming increasingly sympathetical to Zionist and left-wing (particularly Communist) parties, which were effectively hostile to Poland.
::For these reasons, Żaryn says, Jews used the autonomy granted by the Polish state in full, all while not being loyal to Poland or attached to Polishness. And then comes the quote I posted. I hope this helps. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 21:52, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
:::This summary of the summary is basically correct, to my eyes. But I asked a very specific question, raising doubts in a ''wikipedian's'' text. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 21:57, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
::::I couldn't have addressed that question in the answer, as you first posted it 5 minutes after I wrote the summary. But now that the question is here, I will answer it.
::::The problem with the argument (even if I largely agree with it on the merits) is that it's not us who decide what is a straw man, what is a valid line of reasoning etc., as this is exactly doing original research. He makes some argument, which two scholars don't agree with. You may believe that the criticism is right (or the argument is stillborn), but we are ''not'' the ones who decide it or determine truthfulness - scholars do that hard job for us, thank you very much. If there was a work by, say, Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, that praised Żaryn's attitude as regards this book, or his attitude towards Polish-Jewish relations (I haven't found one), we would cite it too, regardless the quality of the argument as we feel it (unless that statement is [[WP:UNDUE]] or [[WP:FRINGE]], but AFAIK there is a rather sizeable and vocal minority that makes the argument, so the only concern is [[WP:PROPORTION]] for me).
::::@Francois Robere: As you see it, yes, she does. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 04:22, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
::: So she specifically mentions his economic argument before criticizing his entire line of reasoning? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 22:19, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

====State of the consensus (section 2)====
I believe we have consensus to include this section as presented. Correct? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:51, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
:We obviously don’t what with the issue of mistranslations still not addressed at all.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 22:58, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
:"Żaryn does not deny that there was anti-Semitism in Interwar Poland" please remove this pointless sentence. Do I need to spell why? Hint: it's true for 99.99% of people if not more. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 04:31, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
:: Done. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 23:49, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

====References (section 2)====
{{collapse top|title=References}}

{{notelist}}
{{reftalk|
# <ref name=":12">{{Cite journal|last=Libionka|first=Dariusz|date=2013-12-02|title=Truth About Camps, or the Uneventful 1942|url=https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/841/812|journal=Holocaust Studies and Materials|pages=579-589|doi=10.32927/zzsim.841}}</ref>
# <ref name=":13">{{Cite journal|last=Zalewski|first=Frédéric|date=2020|title=Les Marches de l’Indépendance à Varsovie. Recompositions et transformations des droites extrêmes depuis les années 2000 en Pologne|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/27005499|journal=Cultures et Conflits|language=fr|issue=117|pages=53|issn=1157-996X}}</ref>
# <ref name=":21">{{Cite web|last=Kalukin|first=Rafał|date=2018-03-20|title=Senator Żaryn i obce siły|url=https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1742096,1,senator-zaryn-i-jego-pozytywne-mity-na-temat-polskosci.read|url-status=live|archive-url=http://janzaryn.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/polityka_2018_03_21_dzieje_bez_grzechu__pdf_bn_k_p.pdf|archive-date=2018-03-21|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Polityka|language=pl}}</ref>
}}
{{collapse bottom}}

===Section 3 (Kielce pogrom) ===
{{anchor|S3ver2}}{{collapse top|title=Section 3}}
Co-editor of a two-volume monograph on the [[Kielce pogrom]], Żaryn has stated that "a significant proportion of Jewish individuals... supported the communist authorities or... joined their ranks"; he blames those individuals for "censorship and propaganda, slander... and deceitfully remaining silent about Soviet massacres." This, he believes, "intensified anti-Semitic attitudes" that resulted in the [[Kielce pogrom]].<ref>{{Cite book |last=Żaryn |first=Jan |url=https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/457021849 |title=It all began in Poland: 1939-1989 |date=2009 |publisher=Oficyna Wydawnicza "Volumen" |year=2009 |isbn=978-83-7233-151-9 |editor-last=Niegowska |editor-first=Agnieszka |location=Warsaw |pages=81-82 |chapter=Communism Polish Style (1944 – 1956) |oclc=457021849}}</ref><ref name="Korycki 2017" /> This narrative is criticized by [[Rafał Pankowski]] and and Kate Korycki as evoking the stereotype of ''[[Żydokomuna]]''.<ref name=":16">{{Cite journal|last=Pankowski|first=Rafał|date=2018-07-04|title=The Resurgence of Antisemitic Discourse in Poland|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23739770.2018.1492781|journal=Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs|language=en|doi=10.1080/23739770.2018.1492781|issn=2373-9770|quote=Representatives of the ruling party also repeatedly alluded to the stereotype of Żydokomuna in discussions surrounding the new legislation. Jewish participation in communist crimes against Poland was stressed by several politicians. For example, a summary of Senator Jan Żaryn’s interview on state radio included the following passage: “Professor Żaryn discussed on Radio 3 the participation of Jews in the mass killings of Poles in the Eastern territories, and the assistance provided by Jews in the occupation of Poland by the Red Army.}}</ref><ref name="Korycki 2019">{{Cite journal|last=Korycki|first=Kate|date=2019-03-31|title=Polticized memory in Poland: anti-communism and the Holocaust|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17504902.2019.1567669|journal=Holocaust Studies|language=en|pages=357|doi=10.1080/17504902.2019.1567669|issn=1750-4902}}</ref> Korycki writes that this narrative "unwittingly recycles many Polish anti-Semitic tropes", adding that Żaryn "[uses] a description of the post-war pogrom in Kielce, perpetrated on Jews by Poles, [as] an opportunity to blame the Jews".<ref name="Korycki 2017">{{Cite journal |last=Korycki |first=Kate |date=2017-08-01 |title=Memory, Party Politics, and Post-Transition Space: The Case of Poland |url=https://doi.org/10.1177/0888325417700263 |journal=East European Politics and Societies |language=en |volume=31 |issue=3 |pages=518–544 |doi=10.1177/0888325417700263 |issn=0888-3254}}</ref>
{{collapse bottom}}
Minor remark: The test says "Zaryn stated", "Zaryn uses", but there are no refs to Zaryn. Please add.

This  is really a sad and ugly matter. I didnt have a chance to read the sources cited through but the first this I see at once is that opinions of Korycki must be thrown out: [https://www.uwo.ca/womens/people/Korycki.html Kate Korycki - Assistant Professor - Gender, Sexuality, and Women's Studies ] -- she is not qualified to be an expert in Holocaust to be cited on controversial issues. (An example of her dubious statement: "unwittingly recycles many Polish anti-Semitic tropes". First of all, the language is unscholarly disrespectful and demonstrates bias.  Second, I didn't look yet how Zaryn phrased it (there are no refs here), but I may readily believe that he was not "recycling" but simply ''describing'' the attitudes in Polish society which had led to the formation of the ''Zydokomuna'' stereotype.) [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 17:04, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
: I've added the ref.
: I checked her bio earlier. She's a "comparative political sociologist", and has a couple of published articles on memory politics in EE, as well as her Ph.D thesis.[https://politics.utoronto.ca/phd-candidate/korycki-kate/][https://www.queensu.ca/politics/kate-korycki][https://www.uwo.ca/womens/people/Korycki.html] She may lack Libionka's ''gravitas'' (she's also 20-something years younger), but she seems well-positioned to comment on what we cite her for.
: She gives the whole paragraph from Żaryn before... tearing into him (see [[Talk:Jan Żaryn/Archive 1#Other sources|here]]).[[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 10:12, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
::Thanks for reminding about the quotes. And it confirms what I thought. Quoting the quote, she wrote that Zaryn wrote:
:::"and a significant proportion of Jewish individuals either supported the communist authorities or else simply joined their ranks. Many worked in the UB <...> '''This intensified anti-Semitic attitudes'''" (emphasis is mine). 
::From here I see: (A) Zaryn does not deny that there was anti-S before "Zydokomuna". (B) Jews in commie govt and ''most notoriously'' in the secret service (UB) '''intensified anti-S'''. The B part is undeniable. Exactly same happened in the early Soviet Union; just read about [[Cheka]] in Kiev for the most atrocious deeds.  So this is just what I wrote: in her hatred towards PiS, she misrepresented Zaryn's  writings by saying that he embraced these anti-Semitic tropes. From here I conclude she is not a reliable source for this article, both because of her bias and of her lack of brains making her to confuse someone's position with someone's ''description of someones' else'' position.  [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 00:40, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
::{{tq|She's a "comparative political sociologist"}} -- sure thing. She wrote about cultural genocide in canada, and about queers in iran, and about Polish politics... What a polymath she is. [[... Not!|... Not.]] She is not a recognized expert. While Ph.D. students may be cited for ''facts'' they collected (and which can be double checked, after all), their ''opinions'' have little value. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 00:40, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
::: [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] - I %100 agree with your investigation. Thanks. We are done here. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 02:25, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
:::Not yet.
:::Just in the very same manner we could say that Jan Żaryn is not qualified to talk about the Holocaust, because he, well, specialises in the deeds of the Catholic Church and the Polish pre-war right-wing movements but suddenly speaks about how Poles were saving Jews, what were the ''true'' reasons for anti-Semitism in Poland etc.; he somehow quickly becomes a recognised expert in WWII or in the Cursed Soldiers (as seen from his participation in the historical boards of the respective museums), even though originally it's just the Catholic Church and, understandably, the Polish pre-war right, which was tightly connected with the Catholic thought. Yet he does. Theoretically we could just stick to what he says about the Church, but 1) no one cared to add the info (and I no longer do, given the fear of insta-reverts), while GizzyCatBella [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_%C5%BBaryn&type=revision&diff=1029046379&oldid=1028849402&diffmode=source removed] the suggestion to expand the then empty section and 2) that's not what he speaks about like, 80% of the time?
:::The argument you try to make boils down to two points: a) she's not an SME; b) it's not something worth mentioning anyway.
:::Let's start from the first one. As [[User:Piotrus|Piotrus]] has rightly noted, {{tq|social science is pretty interdisciplinary}} (see Archive), so, unlike in the hard sciences like chemistry or physics, where you stick to the topic of, let's say, [[bioinorganic chemistry]] or [[quantum mechanics]] or [[lepidopterology]], the border between each is fluid, so in fact, all of these can appear to be absolutely detached from each other but have one main thread in common (so your assumption of her incompetence based on an apparent incompatible diversity of topics is probably incorrect already based on that, unless you can confirm to have analysed all of her papers). And from the summaries of the papers, they seem to revolve around identity politics a lot, even if one is about Communists and the other about LGBT.
:::Now let's see, from link 62, the research interests of the person: {{tq|Identity politics, collective memory politics, [...] Central-Eastern European politics}} These three categories ideally fit for the subject of the article. It's Central-Eastern Europe; the historical policy of PiS is clearly about identity/collective memory topics. Her PhD thesis is about dealing with the legacy of Communism in Poland, and somewhere in the time of preparation of her thesis, she's published the paper in question. We can therefore assume she has researched the topic well.
:::The refutation of her work based on lack of PhD is countered by the fact that ref 4 was published ''after'' she defended her PhD (her thesis was submitted in Nov 2017, while the work is from 2019), and the one from 2017 (prepared while making the PhD) is cited [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Memory%2C+Party+Politics%2C+and+Post-Transition+Space%3A+The+Case+of+Poland%22 11 times] - not bad for a supposedly incompetent scholar. She probably doesn't have the legacy status, but at least her work seems to be used in the scientific community. According to your logic, this should disqualify whatever scientist used her work based on apparent hatred of the currently ruling party. The problem is, (other) scientists from abroad are also predominantly critical of the current policy. Is it because of collective researcher bias ("those nit-picking liberals constantly misportray conservatives and employ <s>censorship</s> cancel culture to suppress conservative thought")? Probably. Are we the ones who should deal with it? [[WP:Academic bias|No.]] Besides, do we have evidence of her hatred of PiS? No, contrary to your claim. Criticism =/= hatred.
:::Is she then a subject-matter expert? In identity/collective memory politics, certainly. That's enough, thank you - if she is a specialist in that domain (and she has taught about Eastern Europe, as can be seen in link 61), she can easily make research on Poland, too. If you have the problem with the peer review of that particular journal, go to WikiProject History and discuss it there.
:::Now, to the second point. The selective quote from the whole paragraph that Korycki is analysing (you can access it legally in the 2019 paper) makes it hard to address the rest of the argument about Korycki's exclusion. She does not make the argument from that sentence only. Her full reasoning is behind the paywall but you can access it on Sci-Hub if you have no problem with that (no endorsement meant). We already know Żaryn does not deny anti-Semitism existed beforehand, so I will only return to the discussion when you read the whole paper.
:::In short, the problem Korycki has with the argument is not that Żaryn says perceptions of ''Żydokomuna'' existed (they did) but that he quotes from the [[Home Army]] report which contains anti-Semitic tropes (among other issues); makes a narrative about the Jews in a way that makes them lose personhood (which he says they have survived by either impersonating Poles or by becoming tyrants/Communists) and makes other manipulations, such as the invocation of otherwise unrelated Katyń, in order to make the blame shift on Jews (aka commies, as it appears in the narrative). In other words, he makes it appear as if Żydokomuna was real. And if that paper received 11 citations, the opinions she presents are not worthless as you try to suggest. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 07:29, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
::::Szmenderowiecki's argument about Korycki's competence seems legitimate and reasonable to me, I don't think it's fair to discredit her works for the reasons set out by other users at the beginning of the discussion. Also, the 11 citations seem to me sufficient to demonstrate that her work has been recognized as having a certain authority in the scientific community. As for the content of what Korycki claims, it is clear that she wants to highlight how Zaryn is trying in every way to clear Poland from any responsibility about anti-Semitism, that overlap between Jews-Communists is the key point of this historical-political operation.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 09:45, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
:::: Other than everything else that I agree with, good point on no one caring to expand the article (other than you, I should add [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1027282389&diffmode=source][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1027800149&diffmode=source]) - there's been a lot of accusations from one editor that this is article is turning into an "attack page", but I'm not exactly seeing editors swarming to summarize Żaryn extensive (and per Libionka - valuable) writings on the Church.[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Jan+%C5%BBaryn] Another good point is the fact that Żaryn would be mainly notable to a lay reader for his positions on Polish-Jewish relations. If a reader sees him on the news and comes here to see what he's about, only to find a dry {{t|infobox officeholder}}-style bio, then we're really doing them a disservice. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
::: First of all a reminder that we're not RS, and commenting on a source's motives ("hatred towards PiS") without supporting sources is OR, and a potential [[WP:BLP]] vio. Second, recall Żaryn uses phrases like "deceitfully remaining silent about Soviet massacres" - by your logic that would make him a "Jew hater", which I doubt is what you intended. Third, the whole point of ''Żydokomuna'' is shifting responsibility from the perpetrators to the victims, who supposedly served the repressive Soviet regime - that's exactly what Żaryn is doing, and it's wrong on several factual levels. But again - we're not the RS here, so having this sort of discussion among ourselves is [[WP:FORUM]]-y. The fact of the matter is we have multiple scholarly sources who are in agreement regarding Żaryn's message, who the objectors repeatedly claim are wrong; so either Żaryn is the most misunderstood fella in Poland, or he really does "recycle many antisemitic tropes". [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 09:53, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
::: And just to be explicit on her relevant publications (re: my and Szmenderowiecki's comments):
:::* “Memory as Politics: Narratives of Communism and the Shape of a Community.” 2017. University of Toronto, Ph.D thesis.
:::* “Memory and Politics in Post-Transition Space: The Case of Poland.” ''East European Politics and Societies, and Cultures''. 31, Issue 3, August 2017. Pages: 518-544.
:::* “Politicized Memory in Poland: Anti-communism and the Holocaust.” ''The Holocaust Studies'', 2018.
:::* “Memory, Identity, Tourism and Photography - review of David Walkowitz’s Remembered and Forgotten Jewish World, and Jonathan Webber’s Rediscovering Traces of Memory, with photographs by Chris Schwarz and Jason Francisco. ''The Polish Review'', 2020.
::: [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 10:42, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Szmenderowiecki --> I'm afraid I have to disagree with your assertions; none of your arguments presented thus far persuaded me her opinion is due for inclusion. Żaryn is an accepted mainstream expert in historiography. I can't see any compelling argument why these random cherry-picked opinions carry any particular weight on BLP Żaryn's biography page and why this random cherry-picked opinions are of any particular importance.
That being said, this is also [[WP:UNDUE]] - so considering the lack of consensus and problematical UNDUE for [[WP:BLP]] - please see [[WP:ONUS]] (and part of [[WP:V]]): '''"The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content."''' - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 10:44, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

:{{tq|Żaryn is an accepted mainstream expert in historiography.}} Depends on how you define "accepted", "mainstream" and in which fields. In Catholic Church, certainly. In right-wing movements, I'd sort of agree, but even there there are some doubts. But in the Holocaust, Polish-Jewish relations - errrm, no. His works are controversial, as can be seen from the mass of academic (and not only) sources I have retrieved; controversy precludes universal acceptance, and it can't be reasonably argued that all the scholars critical of Żaryn have conspired to [[manufactured controversy|manufacture]] it. Among the Polish conservative elites, he's surely mainstream and accepted, but if to look from a non-partisan bias, it is far from clear. There can't be two mainstreams. But anyway, this is not a place to discuss his "mainstreamness", as this is not a [[WP:FORUM]].
:{{tq|I can't see any compelling argument why these random cherry-picked opinions carry any particular weight on BLP Żaryn's biography page and why this random cherry-picked opinions are of any particular importance.}} Because you haven't proved them to be cherry-picked in the first place. You were free to do that for almost the month that has passed since the saga with article expansion began, and yet you didn't care to, not even after being reminded at ANI (2 weeks ago) that expansion is also a thing. Which means that either you have tried to do so but failed, or you didn't try at all, which invalidates the [[WP:UNDUE]] evaluation as you haven't actually researched the prominence of arguments in the first place (about Żaryn specifically), or that you thought you could get away with deleting sourced content because you don't like it (and be aware that you won't be able to do that if that's the only reason you have). I can't comment on sources I haven't seen and probably exist but are nowhere to be found for me.
:As for [[WP:ONUS]] invocation, I remind you that 6 people is most often not a representative sample to establish consensus in a dispute that is more or less equally split, and that the consensus is [[WP:!VOTE|not about the vote tally, it's about quality of arguments]], and since we are all involved parties, it'd be best to have the quality of opinions evaluated by third-party editors (which I hope will be done but for some reason which VM has not wanted to endorse, which I find puzzling). [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 13:34, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] - {{tq|''as you haven't actually researched the prominence of arguments in the first place''}} - Excuse me?! - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 20:00, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

"His critics characterize these opinions". Please name the critics, avoiding weaseling generic plural. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 04:32, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
: Done. I just want to note for the record (as I have in once or twice before) that one of the causes of issues like this is the repeated back-and-forth between editors: if you try to be precise with full names and quotes, then your text is too long; but if you try to shorten it by combining statements and omitting details, then you're inaccurate. It's an unavoidable trade-off, and sometimes just a matter of taste. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 05:52, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

{{re|Lembit Staan}} Other than [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&oldid=prev&diff=1032690407&diffmode=source this], do you support inclusion? If you're okay with Pankowski, then perhaps we can just include this and RfC the removed bit. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 08:44, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
:Sorry, not yet. Someone added a ref to Pankowski. I cannot see its full text. Please quote the piece which supports your suggestion. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 18:12, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
: Also, the quotation of Zaryn is variously misinterpreted. I am pretty low of [[WP:AGF]] now. Until now I tried to help y'all assuming that you simply cannot work with sources and cannot recognize your own original research, but now, after my ''numerous'' fixes in your text in this respect, with explanations, I am left only with an impression that this kind of editing is derived from a particular POV which makes the writers to spin Zaryn's texts in most negative ways.
:That said, our text says " he blames those individuals for "censorship and propaganda, slander... and... " Well, he is not. His text says: "Many worked in the UB <...> and also in censorship and propaganda, slandering..." Here "in censorship and propaganda" refers to the corresponding departments of the Communist party/state (whatever).  And an important omission is the UB part, which was most visible and painful for ordinary Poles (and which contributed to anti-Semitism mightily), because the Poles quickly learned to read communist propaganda properly.
:He also didn't write "that resulted in Kielce pogrom". He wrote cautiously: " This intensified anti-Semitic attitudes which <...> could have led to the uncontrolled impulses toward the pogroms. Such was the case, especially in Kielce." - and I see nothing wrong with this. Certainly, ''individual'' Jews in UB didn't make Poles love ''all'' Jews. That's how negative stereotypes are created: highly visible individuals project their blame on the whole their category. In other words, he does not "recycle" anti-Semitic tropes, he ''explains'' how they were generated.
:FYI, I am not defending Zaryn; there are numerous idiotic blunders in his texts. Even in the quote discussed: First he writes about the Jews: "many worked in the UB". A couple of phrases  later he writes about pogroms: "with clear support of UB". I don't  think it was his intention to say that Jews themselves ''directly fomented'' pogroms against themselves (which is different from the anti-Semitic trope that the Jews "deserved it".) In best traditions of Wikipedian's [[WP:SYNTHESIS]], he "mixed and matched"  two completely different narrations, producing a really weird result. In other words, until now Zaryn may be accused of really sloppy scholarship (an some refs cited really do this), but not in "an opportunity to blame the Jews". - [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 18:12, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
:: Another few reasons not to include this...thanks for the analysis [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]], to me this section is absolutely '''no go'''. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 18:42, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
:: Rafał Pankowski. ''The Resurgence of Antisemitic Discourse in Poland''. 2018. pp. 6-7:
:: {{quote|"Representatives of the ruling party also repeatedly alluded to the stereotype of Żydokomuna in discussions surrounding the new legislation. Jewish participation in communist crimes against Poland was stressed by several politicians. For example, a summary of Senator Jan Żaryn’s interview on state radio included the following passage: “Professor Żaryn discussed on Radio 3 the participation of Jews in the mass killings of Poles in the Eastern territories, and the assistance provided by Jews in the occupation of Poland by the Red Army.”}}
:: pp. 9-10 (unrelated):
:: {{quote|Many of the public comments made in the wake of the passage of the history law were accompanied by thinly veiled conspiracy theories. A direct reference to imagined Jewish power was made by MP Janusz Sanocki... A similar point about the existential clash of Polish and Jewish identities, and disproportionate Jewish international influence, was made by Professor Mieczysław Ryba... In a similar vein, Senator Jan Żaryn, a historian-turned-politician who plays a key role in the ruling party’ s “history policy,” gave an interview (published on February 1, 2018) to a pro-government media outlet, and spoke in the same breath about the US, its powerful Jewish lobby, and property claims, as well as the “Jewish German Russian alliance.”}}
:: Regarding Żaryn's quote - we had a longer version of it,[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn/Archive_1#Draft] but I trimmed it for conciseness. Feel free to restore whatever part of it you see fit + Wikilinks, as long as no one takes issue with length. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 10:59, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
::We're not reading ''intentions'' of the authors, and that was the whole point of my arguments, as this is an exercise in original research, or, to be more precise, an exercise of being at the cutting edge of cocking about. We are only reading what they write and, if they explicitly state what they meant while writing this and that, include that commentary too. We are not the ones who make a search in the head of the article's subject, we are not telepaths and neither are we scholars ourselves (unless someone is, in which case it would be good to know it). Whether they make good-quality or lousy arguments while justifying that position is irrelevant (unless someone points that specific line of argument, or work, out); what we must care about is conserving due weight and conveying their points. Not ours.
::{{tq|In best traditions of Wikipedian's WP:SYNTHESIS, he "mixed and matched" two completely different narrations, producing a really weird result.}} And that's what we are talking about - unnecessary ambiguity. You interpret it as being a mere explanation, others see it as recycling anti-Semitic tropes. But ultimately scholars' opinions are worth more than ours, even if they might seem flawed; which is also why I asked others to find balancing opinions (which I couldn't), weighting them appropriately. 
::And yes, where did the two other sources (Libionka, Korycki) go? [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 13:57, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
:::You should have to watch the discussion. Korycki deleted as a nonreliable source because provedly she misrepresented Zaryn to suit her agenda. Also she is not a recognized expert in this sensitive area. Libionka is a good author, however his footnote is a case of "refbombing" nothing in the source cited speaks about the text to which it was attached. You are welcome to use ''relevant'' info from his article. Korycki is out of question. I am not defending Zaryn. I am for high Wikipedia standards. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 15:33, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
:::: {{re|Szmenderowiecki}} What did we lose from Libionka? 
:::: {{re|Lembit Staan}} See my comment above regarding Żaryn's quote. If we address this, are you okay with inclusion? Then we can RfC Korycki. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 15:49, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::Sorry, wrong fragment. @Lembit Staan: {{tq|because provedly she misrepresented Zaryn to suit her agenda}} you still provided no proof of "hatred of PiS" or "suiting one's agenda" (and I have read all the developments of the discussion, even if I haven't participated in it). At most you have proved that the wording in the WP article was wrong but not that she misquoted Żaryn. That she interpreted it the way you didn't does not disqualify her work. Again, you are not the one to decide whether the interpretation was correct or not. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 15:54, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::Oh yes, this is Wikipedian's job to evaluate the quality of the sources. We do not add every nonsense written. EVen best experts make errors sometimes. And it is not about misquoting Zaryn (although selective quoting and mistranslation is a plague of this disscussion): in is ''the text in Wikipedia voice'' is false. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:53, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::: Putting Korycki's aside for a moment, what do you mean by {{tq|the text in Wikipedia voice is false}}? Everything is attributed. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 20:04, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::::What is not in quotes, it is written by a wikipedian, even if it is based on sources cited, and hence it is wikipedia's responsibility. If a wikipedian transfers dubious statements from the source into our article, it is wikipedian's failure of wikipedia. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 23:48, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::::: If you mean the summary of the quote, I already said that {{tq|we had a longer version of it,[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn/Archive_1#Draft] but I trimmed it for conciseness. Feel free to restore whatever part of it you see fit + Wikilinks, as long as no one takes issue with length}}; if you mean Pankowski, then the only difference is that he uses the word "alludes", and we "evoke". [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 08:51, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::: Both words are ''meaningless'' as used. I am explaining the logic for one last time, in still other words, and no longer addressing this issue before you provide me an offical certificate on completing courses in logic and reasoning. Poles saw that the Jews were a prominent part of the UB. Out of 450 people in director positions in the Ministry between 1944 and 1954, 167 (37.1%) were of Jewish ethnicity.  Is this statement true or false? Did I "invoke" the argument of Zudokomuna? Yes, I did. So what? Did I justify anti-Semitism? It depends how you will twist my words, i.e., how you cut the ''context'' where these words were written. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:28, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::# Am I to understand that you object to both Korycki and So you object Pankowski?
::::::::::# Do you want to add more from Żaryn's quote, or not?
::::::::::# Reiterating Szmenderowiecki's words below: I don't think it's our role as Wikipedians to evaluate Żaryn's detailed argument with either Korycki's or Pankowski's equally-detailed answers. If it was something [[Chewbacca defense|obviously ridiculous]], biased to the extreme, or contentious to the point of [[WP:FRINGE]], then I'd agree with you; but your argument is all about the minutiae of interpretation and historical detail of two experts in good standing, and you have no sources to back it. In essence, you're putting yourself up as a [[WP:TERTIARY]] source, and that's [[WP:OR]]. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 16:53, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::#: I have an impression you are not reading and answering my comments, yet you demand me to answer yours. I am no longer engaging into this one-sided discussion anymore, jut saying to your "Reiterating..." -- freaking NO. I am not discussing ''arguments'', I am discussing ''falsitudes'' and ''spins'', disallowed per [[WP:BLP]].  [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 18:10, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::#:Three last test questions: '''(A)''' Do you see the difference between the two statements: '''(A1)''' "Jews dominated UB and hence deserve what they got." and '''(A2)''' "Jews dominated UB and hence many Poles thought that they deserve what they got." '''(C)''' Which statements are true or false: A1 or A2? '''(C)''' What is Zaryn's narrative: A1 or A2? [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 18:10, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::#:: I've read all of your comments, I just don't think your arguments have merit. I'll be restoring Korycki and we'll RfC the whole section.
::::::::::#:::''Ditto''. I am not talking to you anymore. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 19:14, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::#:: Neither statement is true, both reflect the ''Żydokomuna'' stereotype, and both ignore the backdrop of antisemitism that made it easier to accuse Jews of "Soviet terrorism" than Poles, regardless of what they did or did not do. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 18:41, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::#::: My bad. I should have written "were overrepresented in UB". Anyway, you failed the test. In fact A2 is true (with my correction) is among the major foundations of Zydoomuna stereotypee. Meaning you are not qualified to discuss these issues. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 19:14, 14 July 2021 (UTC)


:::::::I've waited for that answer. 
:::::::The thing is, you've answered everything in the first sentence: {{tq|this is Wikipedian's job to evaluate the quality of the ''sources''}} [emphasis mine]. Because indeed, we must evaluate whether it's primary or secondary or tetriary, whether there are any ''obvious'' COIs in it, whether it's published in a peer-reviewed publication, RS, not RS or SPS. But it's not our duty, and, in fact, we are barred from evaluating the quality of the ''arguments'' inside a source (which you have done multiple times, only wasting your time by writing that, and others' time by reading your train of thought). The only check here is [[WP:WEIGHT]]. Therefore, even if the best experts make errors, we are ''not'' the ones who correct them. But peers can and should. If you have reputable scholars or at the very least journalists with a background in history that refute her point (or a similarly formulated point) and they publish in RS, I will be happy to adapt that section to include the rebuttal. How hard can it be? PS. It was hard for me, [[WP:SET|my searcb engine test gave me what it gave]], and I accept that Google might calibrate the search to each user separately, so I've been waiting to do the same with other people... The end was somewhat predictable. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 20:52, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::::Sorry, disagreed. We evaluate the quality of sources all the time. We do not wait until other people publish rebuttal of obvious falsetudes; keeping in mind this is not a rocket science of national importance and nobody really cares to go into deep polemics over these details. It is our job to keep dubious things off '''[[WP:BLP]]''', as repeated to you many times by several people. I demonstrated a falsehood, yet you want to squeeze it into wikipedia trying to invoke purely formal grounds. Sorry, it will not go, and  I am no longer answering this kind of your wikilawyering anymore. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 23:43, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

====State of the consensus (section 3)====
I believe there's consensus to include this section as presented, except for the bit in '''bold''', which may require an RfC. Correct? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 00:49, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

====References (section 3)====
{{collapse top|title=References}}

{{notelist}}
{{reftalk|
# <ref name=":12">{{Cite journal|last=Libionka|first=Dariusz|date=2013-12-02|title=Truth About Camps, or the Uneventful 1942|url=https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/841/812|journal=Holocaust Studies and Materials|pages=579-589|doi=10.32927/zzsim.841}}</ref>
# <ref name=":13">{{Cite journal|last=Zalewski|first=Frédéric|date=2020|title=Les Marches de l’Indépendance à Varsovie. Recompositions et transformations des droites extrêmes depuis les années 2000 en Pologne|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/27005499|journal=Cultures et Conflits|language=fr|issue=117|pages=53|issn=1157-996X}}</ref>
# <ref name=":21">{{Cite web|last=Kalukin|first=Rafał|date=2018-03-20|title=Senator Żaryn i obce siły|url=https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1742096,1,senator-zaryn-i-jego-pozytywne-mity-na-temat-polskosci.read|url-status=live|archive-url=http://janzaryn.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/polityka_2018_03_21_dzieje_bez_grzechu__pdf_bn_k_p.pdf|archive-date=2018-03-21|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Polityka|language=pl}}</ref>
}}
{{collapse bottom}}

===Section 4===
{{anchor|S4ver2}}{{collapse top|title=Section 4}}
Żaryn has stated that the accepted narrative of the [[Jedwabne pogrom]] is a "[[founding myth]]" of the "allegedly proven" organized massacres of Jews by Poles, supposedly rooted in inherent Polish [[anti-Semitism]] and [[xenophobia]],<ref name=":20">{{Cite web|date=2019-07-10|title=Przypominamy. Prof. Żaryn: Polska racja stanu polega na wznowieniu ekshumacje w Jedwabnem|url=https://www.tysol.pl/a34487-tylko-u-nas-Przypominamy-Prof-Zaryn-Polska-racja-stanu-polega-na-wznowieniu-ekshumacje-w-Jedwabnem|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-09|website=tysol.pl|language=pl|quote=To jest ważne także z perspektywy politycznej, dlatego podkreśliłem, że piszę to jako historyk i jako senator, ponieważ kłamliwa, jak dziś wiemy jako badacze, wersja dotycząca przebiegu zdarzeń w Jedwabnem jest uprawomocniona przez dziesiątki tysięcy, i setki tysięcy zapewne, publikacji. Stanowi już mit założycielski dotyczący rzekomo udowodnionego polskiego zorganizowanego mordowania Żydów wyrastającego jakoby z polskiego, wypijanego z mlekiem matki antysemityzmu, ksenofobii, a na dodatek, w kontekście naszej chrześcijańskiej tożsamości. Te wszystkie nieprawdziwe stereotypy mają pożywkę w postaci niewystarczająco udokumentowanego do dzisiaj fragmentu dziejów II wojny światowej na terytorium Polski. I dopóki to udokumentowanie nie nastąpi, nie ma także możliwości, by zweryfikować te mitologiczne wersje.}}</ref> which he believes is are "false stereotypes" that could be clarified with further research.<ref name=":20" /> According to Żaryn, the Jedwabne events were directed by the Germans with the participation of ''[[Volksdeutsche]]'' and "outsiders" who came from other villages.<ref name=":15">{{Cite web|title=Prof. Jan Żaryn: Niemcy byli "reżyserami" pogromów takich jak w Jedwabnem|url=https://dzieje.pl/aktualnosci/prof-jan-zaryn-niemcy-byli-rezyserami-pogromow-takich-jak-w-jedwabnem|access-date=2021-06-09|website=dzieje.pl|language=pl|quote=Fakty są takie, że Niemcy próbowali prowokować Polaków do takich działań posiłkując się stanem ich rzeczywistych emocji po okupacji sowieckiej i dążyli do wprowadzenia ich w krąg nienawiści budowany przez oddziały Einsatzgruppen. Formacje te były rzeczywistymi reżyserami każdego z kilkunastu tragicznych zbrodni z czerwca i lipca 1941 r., począwszy od wydarzeń w Białymstoku, poprzez Wąsocz, Radziłów, na Jedwabnem kończąc. Wszędzie tam Niemcy próbują przymusić Polaków do uczestnictwa w tych mordach, co w większości wypadków się nie udaje, a jeśli to jedynie w formie biernej. Oczywiście w Jedwabnem znajdują folksdojczów i osoby spoza tej miejscowości, które przychodzą tam razem z Niemcami. Wszystko jednak dzieje się pod dyktando niemieckie.}}</ref> He adds that "even if some of the Polish locals participated in this 'spectacle' under duress... the majority looked in disgust at what the Germans have done...".<ref name=":15" /> Żaryn states that "the deceitful narrative [of Jedwabne] burdens the Poles and Poland with co-responsibility for the Holocaust".<ref>{{Cite web|date=2018-02-21|title=Jan Żaryn o ekshumacji w Jedwabnem|url=https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/jan-zaryn-o-ekshumacji-w-jedwabnem/csfg8x4|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Onet Wiadomości|language=pl|quote=Jedwabne zostało skrócone do przekazu kłamliwego. Ten przekaz obciąża Polskę i Polaków współodpowiedzialnością za Holokaust.}}</ref> Consequently, he has supported the efforts to [[exhumation|exhume]] the bodies of Jedwabne's victims, '''led by [[Ewa Kurek]] over objections of the Jewish community, for both scientific and political reasons'''.<ref name=":19">{{Cite web|date=2018-02-22|title=Best of "Onet Opinie". Jan Żaryn gościem Andrzeja Stankiewicza|url=https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/opinie/best-of-onet-opinie-jan-zaryn-gosciem-andrzeja-stankiewicza/qg06n91|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Onet Wiadomości|language=pl}}</ref><ref name=":20" />
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:This one’s fine as long as the “Ewa Kurek” non sequitur and irrelevancy gets dropped. It has no reason to be there except as a BLP violating attempt at smear-by-association, especially since people like Jan Gross ALSO supported exhumations.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 21:42, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
:: Żaryn makes that connection, not us.[http://janzaryn.pl/?p=3421][https://www.tysol.pl/a34487-tylko-u-nas-Przypominamy-Prof-Zaryn-Polska-racja-stanu-polega-na-wznowieniu-ekshumacje-w-Jedwabnem][https://wpolityce.pl/polityka/440256-arcyciekawa-dyskusja-kurek-z-zarynem-we-wpolscepl] [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 13:37, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
:::They were panelists on the same interview so of course they referred to each other. That’s not a “connection”. Come on.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 22:11, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
:::: Oh, I knew you'd pick on that! The ''reason'' they were interviewed together was his ''public letter of support'' of her efforts, which also lent him some interview questions (that's the other two links). As I said - he made that connection, not us. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:14, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
::::: So? As pointed out over and over and over and over again, lots of people from across the political spectrum, and of various opinions on Jedwabne support/supported the exhumations. And lots of people from across the political spectrum were against them. Again, this is trying to manufacture a "controversy" by stringing together some primary sources and a couple of shady opinion pieces.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 07:34, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::: Let's recount the story: Żaryn publicly supports an historian that was compared by two subject matter experts to [[David Irving]].[http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/261051/ewa-kurek-favorite-historian-of-the-polish-far-right][https://forward.com/yiddish/398754/why-was-historian-who-blames-jews-for-complicity-with-nazis-considered-for/][http://janzaryn.pl/?p=3421] The media notices[https://oko.press/senator-zaryn-wznowmy-ekshumacje-w-jedwabnem-nie-ulegajmy-szantazom-ale-zadnych-nie-bylo/] and he gets asked about it.[https://www.tysol.pl/a34487-tylko-u-nas-Przypominamy-Prof-Zaryn-Polska-racja-stanu-polega-na-wznowieniu-ekshumacje-w-Jedwabnem][https://wpolityce.pl/polityka/440256-arcyciekawa-dyskusja-kurek-z-zarynem-we-wpolscepl][https://www.tysol.pl/a30925-video-Kurek-Glinski-powiedzial-Ekshumacji-w-Jedwabnem-nie-mozemy-zrobic-bo-USA-wyprowadza-wojska] He's the one that, according to one source, "convinces" her to drop the  case (which we should also mention).[https://www.salon24.pl/u/jaceklehr3/1004754,wstyd-kosciola-za-jedwabne] That's more than just "some primary sources and a couple of shady opinion pieces". [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 10:04, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::: If we’re “recounting” then let’s recount how your wiki-collaborator Icewhiz was topic banned for BLP violations, specifically (as in the ArbCom provided the diffs in their decision) with regard to the same Ewa Kurek who you just compared to a Holocaust denier. And who really is irrelevant to this article here. BLP applies to talk pages so I suggest you strike that BLP vio.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 05:00, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::: Oh, and the sources you linked above are opinion pieces in online tabloids like oko press, salon24, wpolityce etc and an interview in tysol (primary source) so my description “some primary sources and a couple of shady opinion pieces” is right on the nose. You literally just proved my point. Thanks.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 05:05, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::: BTW, are you okay with the rest of the par.? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 10:11, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::: Serious question, do you think salon24 is a reliable source? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 05:09, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::::: Serious question, are you okay with the rest of the par.? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:31, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::::: Please strike your BLP vio above.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 23:05, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::: David Silberklang is a senior historian at the International Institute for Holocaust Research at [[Yad Vashem]], and former editor-in-chief of ''Yad Vashem Studies''.[https://www.yadvashem.org/author/david-silberklang.html][https://www.ehri-project.eu/david-silberklang] Berel Lang is a professor emeritus at [[University at Albany, SUNY]] and the author of 21 books, including ''Act and Idea in the Nazi Genocide'',[https://press.syr.edu/supressbooks/497/act-and-idea-in-the-nazi-genocide/] ''Holocaust Representation'',[https://jhupbooks.press.jhu.edu/title/holocaust-representation] and ''Heidegger's Silence''[https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9780801433108/heideggers-silence/][http://aajr.org/fellows-2/berel-lang/] (between them these three books have ~900 citations). I'm not going to apologize for deferring to authorities like Silberklang and Lang over the woman who said [[COVID-19]] is causing a "Judaisation of Western Europe".[https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/polish-historian-ewa-kurek-coronavirus-is-jewfication-of-europe-629877][https://www.nigdywiecej.org/docstation/com_docstation/172/the_virus_of_hate.pdf] Get some perspective, Marek. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 06:21, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::And what does that have to do with your BLP vio? Your choice.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 16:45, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::: VM, you realize [[WP:BLPTALK]] doesn't actually ban claims regarding BLPs, right? It only applies to those that are "unsourced or poorly sourced and not related to making content choices", and this isn't it. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 17:15, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

====References (section 4)====
{{collapse top|title=References}}

{{notelist}}
{{reftalk|
# <ref name=":12">{{Cite journal|last=Libionka|first=Dariusz|date=2013-12-02|title=Truth About Camps, or the Uneventful 1942|url=https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/841/812|journal=Holocaust Studies and Materials|pages=579-589|doi=10.32927/zzsim.841}}</ref>
# <ref name=":13">{{Cite journal|last=Zalewski|first=Frédéric|date=2020|title=Les Marches de l’Indépendance à Varsovie. Recompositions et transformations des droites extrêmes depuis les années 2000 en Pologne|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/27005499|journal=Cultures et Conflits|language=fr|issue=117|pages=53|issn=1157-996X}}</ref>
# <ref name=":21">{{Cite web|last=Kalukin|first=Rafał|date=2018-03-20|title=Senator Żaryn i obce siły|url=https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1742096,1,senator-zaryn-i-jego-pozytywne-mity-na-temat-polskosci.read|url-status=live|archive-url=http://janzaryn.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/polityka_2018_03_21_dzieje_bez_grzechu__pdf_bn_k_p.pdf|archive-date=2018-03-21|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Polityka|language=pl}}</ref>
}}
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===Section 5===
{{anchor|S5ver2}}{{collapse top|title=Section 5}}
In 2018 Żaryn had proposed a Senate resolution for the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the [[1968 Polish political crisis|March 1968 political crisis]]. An excerpt of the resolution stated that "in arranging anti-Semitic demonstrations and forcing Poles to take part, as well as by introducing pathological anti-Jewish sentiments into the public discourse, the communist government did not represent the will of the People, but only that of [[Moscow]] and its intra-communist and international interests". This has been criticized by historians as an attempt at [[Whitewashing (censorship)|whitewashing]] Polish history,<ref>{{Cite web|last=Pacewicz|first=Piotr|date=2018-03-01|title=Jak się Żydów przeprasza, to po co ich obrażać - o uchwale senatora Żaryna (PiS) mówi prof. Osęka. Prawda o Marcu 1968|url=https://oko.press/sie-zydow-przeprasza-obrazac-o-uchwale-zaryna-pis-mowi-prof-oseka-prawda-o-marcu-1968/|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-07|website=oko.press}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|date=2018-02-27|title=Senator Żaryn autorem uchwały, która ma zostać przyjęta w rocznicę Marca'68. Czeka nas kolejny skandal?|url=https://www.newsweek.pl/polska/polityka/czy-polska-istniala-w-1968-roku-to-nie-my-nas-nie-bylo/00vp4fn|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-07|website=Newsweek.pl|language=pl}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=Dobrosz-Oracz|first=Justyna|date=2018-03-02|title=Jan Żaryn o swojej kontrowersyjnej uchwale. W 68' nie istniało państwo polskie?|url=https://wyborcza.pl/10,152484,23092966,jan-zaryn-o-swojej-kontrowersyjnej-uchwale-w-68-nie-istnialo.html|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-07|website=[[Gazeta Wyborcza]]|language=pl}}</ref> and proved controversial even in Żaryn's own party.<ref name=":21" /> Two weeks after the proposal was abandoned, Żaryn proposed that Israeli ambassador [[Anna Azari]], who commented on the anti-Semitic events of [[1968 Polish political crisis|March 1968]], be deported.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Polish senator suggests expelling Israeli envoy for linking ruling party to 1968 purge of Jews|url=https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/polish-senator-suggests-expelling-israeli-envoy-for-68-purge-remarks-1.5889384|access-date=2021-06-07|website=Haaretz.com|language=en}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=News|first=Polsat|title=Żaryn o wypowiedzi ambasador Izraela: może trzeba poprosić tę panią, by opuściła to państwo - Polsat News|url=https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2018-03-09/zaryn-o-wypowiedzi-ambasador-izraela-moze-trzeba-poprosic-te-pania-by-opuscila-to-panstwo/|access-date=2021-06-07|website=polsatnews.pl|language=pl}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=Hartman|first=Jan|author-link=Jan Hartman (philosopher)|date=2018-03-09|title=Skandaliczne słowa prof. Żaryna o ambasador Izraela|url=https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1741106,1,skandaliczne-slowa-prof-zaryna-o-ambasador-izraela.read|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-07|website=www.polityka.pl|language=pl}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|title=Zdecydowane słowa prof. Żaryna dla wPolsce.pl o wypowiedzi ambasador Azari: "Może trzeba poprosić tę panią, by opuściła to państwo"|url=https://wpolityce.pl/polityka/385150-zdecydowane-slowa-prof-zaryna-dla-wpolscepl-o-wypowiedzi-ambasador-azari-moze-trzeba-poprosic-te-pania-by-opuscila-to-panstwo|access-date=2021-06-07|website=wpolityce.pl}}</ref>
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:This part is just straight up WP:UNDUE and not supported by sources, at least the ones worth anything. Zaryn’s statement here isn’t all that controversial. The 1968 anti Semitic campaign *was* indeed organized by the communist party. Last part of this paragraph doesn’t even make sense - how is PiS suppose to be associated with what Communists did in 1968? Wtf??? This is just an incoherent jarbled mess that’s only barely connected to what the sources say.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 21:46, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
:With the last four sources at the end there, three of them merely say that he made an off hand comment saying “perhaps they should be asked to leave” in reference to the ambassador making critical statements about the country they’re in, and the fourth one is a straight up wacky opinion piece. “Harsh words” is ridiculously POV too. Anyway, all this is [[WP:NOTNEWS]]. Not actually of any importance to this guy’s life. This is a BLP.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 21:58, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
::No, I think this is Due, his statement clearly wants to reinterpret history and paint Poland as a completely separate entity from the authorities of the time (not a fair move for a historian). He obviously wants to bring back one of his "positive myths" about the Polish nation, and that's exactly why the Israeli ambassador made that comment. Furthermore, how could his request to expel the ambassador be of little importance? These are very serious statements.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 22:02, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
:::Oh, ffs, he didn’t “request to expel the ambassador”! Stop making BLP violations on talk page. He made an off hand comment in an interview where he said that if an ambassador insults the country they’re based in “perhaps they should be asked to leave”. Other people were also critical of Azari’s comments. For a diplomat, it was pretty undiplomatic.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 22:08, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
::You both seem to unintentionally misinterpret [[WP:DUE]]. DUE is not about need of inclusion (an issue of notability), it's about significance of viewpoints (which is an issue of neutral point of view), and as far as the prominence of their opinions go, they seem to be at least equally prominent as compared to the viewpoint of Żaryn, so this one is definitely due (which is notable in this case, as I explain below, but not all DUE opinions are automatically worthy of inclusion).
::The fragment about "harsh words" as appears now was [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_%C5%BBaryn&type=revision&diff=1027385652&oldid=1027343461&diffmode=source converted] from a quote to a rephrasing of a quote by Lembit Staan. The concept is pretty good, but the sentence might need remaking, I'll see if the change is good.
::Speaking of [[WP:NOTNEWS]] concern (which is a notability issue): this would be OK if we talked about a simple, routine news event that was just a flash. But then we have at least two historians, which I think were originally in the Polish version of the article.
::As [[WP:NTEMP]] says, "notability is not temporary; '''once a topic has been the subject of "significant coverage" in accordance with the general notability guideline, it does not need to have ongoing coverage'''", of which "significant coverage" is {{tq|[addressing] the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material.}} In the news sources given, these events clearly are the main topic of the reporting (both in late Feb and early Mar), and no OR is needed to understand what he is saying, or to quote him (if, of course, we reject the frivolous (as seen from the guidelines) claim that any translation of what someone said is OR). Moreover, the sources in late Feb quote two historians who directly address his way of phrasing the resolution, while coverage of his March suggestion was, in fact, international. From there it seems that the [[WP:NOTNEWS]] argument falls flat.
::As for constant claims of mistranslation: we are yet to see yours. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 11:13, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
:Going through the sources, the first one, Haaretz, afaict does not call his statement “harsh” although it does falsely report them (his statement was responding to a comparison of PiS and the communist party not to claim that antisemitism is on the rise). 2nd source doesn’t call his “words” anything. Just reports the. Third source, Polityka, does call them scandalous but that’s because it’s a hysterical overblown highly partisan opinion column so who cares. Fourth source calls them “strong words” or something like that.	
:Several of the sources note that Zaryn wasn’t the only one to criticize the ambassador’s statement so why is he being singled out here? 
:Again this is a pretty clear attempt to turn this article into a BLP vio hit piece by misrepresenting and cherry picking sources. Just drop it. Other editors have been banned for similar attempts.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 22:05, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
: We can CE this to be more concise and less editorializing, but the mention itself seems DUE. I don't have time to do this myself ATM, so if anyone want to go ahead feel free. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 13:52, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
::Or we can just acknowledge that it’s UNDUE and [[WP:NOTNEWS]].<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 22:10, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

: We need to clarify what we mean by "abandoned" in the context of his Senate proposal - does it mean that the proposal was withdrawn? Also, we need some conclusion to the Azari story. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 18:00, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
::Or we don't include this non-story in at all this being a BLP and all. [[WP:NOTNEWS]].<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 18:33, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
:::If the proposal to the Senate, where he was the promoter or one of the main actors, has been withdrawn by the same party (with attached controversy), we have already entered the field of serious issues. This could also show that Zaryn represents the most extreme wing of his party. This is not a small piece of information.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 07:28, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
::::THis is pure original research.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 07:32, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
::::: Rephrasing Mhorg's argument in more familiar terms: the fact that a senator submits to the Senate a bill that is so widely criticized that it has to be withdrawn, then suggests a foreign ambassador should be expelled for commenting on the subject, is both unusual and "high level" enough to merit inclusion in some form. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 10:21, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::: Except that’s not what happened here. Bills are revised and amended all the time. Off hand comment in an interview is not same as “demanding a foreign ambassador should be expelled”. Stop trying to manufacture controversy and please make an effort at observing BLP.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 05:02, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::: {{tq|Bills are revised and amended all the time}} True, but that doesn't usually involve historians going on record to berate the colleague who tabled them. Also, please quote accurately, that's not what I wrote. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 11:41, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::: Also, I just want to stress what was already mentioned twice before - memory politics is what Żaryn is known for. If we don't cover this, what should we cover?
::::::: I've shortened the paragraph. I think something in the range of three sentences is enough. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 12:16, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::::: {{tq|An excerpt from the resolution stated that "in arranging anti-Semitic demonstrations and forcing Poles to take part, as well as by introducing pathological anti-Jewish sentiments into the public discourse, the communist government did not represent the will of the People, but only that of [[Moscow]] and its intra-communist and international interests"}} I think removing this part doesn't make the point well understood by the reader. In my opinion it should be restored.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 12:31, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::::: I agree it's not as clear, but the full quote might be too long. This is inelegant, but shorter: "The resolution stated, among others, that 'anti-Semitic demonstrations... [and] pathological anti-Jewish sentiments... [were not] the will of the People, but of [[Moscow]] alone". Alternatively, perhaps we can use a quote from one of the experts? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 14:23, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::::: I've restored the excerpt. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 06:31, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

This may actually be expanded with a quote showing the controversial wording, and explaining why it was controversial. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 04:34, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
:The problem is that the sources don’t really support the “scandal erupted” nonsense. There’s one source - a hysterical opinion piece - that uses the phrase “scandalous words” in a headline but that’s it.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 06:16, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
:: Easy fix. Anything else? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 06:29, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
:::The claim "proved controversial even in Żaryn's own party." is not supported by the source (I guess if you squint really hard) and this source is not sufficient to establish this.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 16:57, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
:::: "Projekt okazał się zbyt kontrowersyjny nawet dla samego PiS. Przegłosowano więc alternatywne stanowisko, a tekst Jana Żaryna zarzucono." [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 17:27, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
@VM - Yeah, I agree; the entire section is [[WP:UNDUE]] for [[WP:BLP]] bio and should be withdrawn. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 19:17, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

====References (section 5)====
{{collapse top|title=References}}

{{notelist}}
{{reftalk|
# <ref name=":12">{{Cite journal|last=Libionka|first=Dariusz|date=2013-12-02|title=Truth About Camps, or the Uneventful 1942|url=https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/841/812|journal=Holocaust Studies and Materials|pages=579-589|doi=10.32927/zzsim.841}}</ref>
# <ref name=":13">{{Cite journal|last=Zalewski|first=Frédéric|date=2020|title=Les Marches de l’Indépendance à Varsovie. Recompositions et transformations des droites extrêmes depuis les années 2000 en Pologne|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/27005499|journal=Cultures et Conflits|language=fr|issue=117|pages=53|issn=1157-996X}}</ref>
# <ref name=":21">{{Cite web|last=Kalukin|first=Rafał|date=2018-03-20|title=Senator Żaryn i obce siły|url=https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1742096,1,senator-zaryn-i-jego-pozytywne-mity-na-temat-polskosci.read|url-status=live|archive-url=http://janzaryn.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/polityka_2018_03_21_dzieje_bez_grzechu__pdf_bn_k_p.pdf|archive-date=2018-03-21|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Polityka|language=pl}}</ref>
}}
{{collapse bottom}}

=== State of the consensus (all sections) ===
{{ping|CPCEnjoyer|Lembit Staan|Mhorg|Piotrus|Szmenderowiecki|Volunteer Marek}} Apologies for so many pings. It's been a long discussion and occasionally difficult to follow and move along. I'd like to summarize where we are at the moment, and hear what you think:
# [[#S1ver2|Section 1]] - consensus to include.
# [[#S2ver2|Section 2]] - consensus to include.
# [[#S3ver2|Section 3]] - RfC.
# [[#S4ver2|Section 4]] - consensus to include, but there remains a point of contention on whether Ewa Kurek should be mentioned.
# [[#S5ver2|Section 5]] - unclear, but seems to lean towards inclusion.
Please give your comments below. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 19:09, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

* I am not sure I am seeing consensus for everything, but some progress was made. Let's see what others think? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 04:58, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
** {{re|Piotrus}} Not everything, but what is noted? And your own concerns regarding S1 and S2 have been addressed? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 08:59, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
::# Section, explains neutrally his political orientation and his role as a historian. This section is a must.
::# Section, his thoughts about Polish-Jewish relationship are presented, and criticisms from other academics are also presented in an appropriate manner.
::# Section, ok for the RfC
::# Section, here too, it seems to me all written in a neutral way, and I don't even see the controversy about Ewa Kurek, that part is very small and not even of vital importance. In my opinion it could be left as it is.
::# Section, there many sources are used and his pov on the events of March 1968 political crisis definitely deserve these two lines of text. Even that little "incident" with the Israeli ambassador is something that seems to me to be quite wrong to omit. I would be to leave the text as it is.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 09:24, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::@Mhorg|Mhorg - We talked about everything already above and below, and you retelling your position yet again will not grant the consensus; '''we don't have one'''. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 15:31, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::"{{tq|I'd like to summarize where we are at the moment, and hear what you think}}" François wrote... This is what '''I think''' about these five sections. Did I misunderstand François' question?--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 15:50, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::::Yes. He claimed there was consensus when there clearly isn't.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 06:39, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
*Sections 1,2 OK as starting points. Section 3 out of question, since it is basically an insimuation antiSemitism. Section 4 looks OK, only Kurek is irrelevant because he is for exhumation regardless who else. Section 5 is misleading: it leaves as if the resolution was withdrawn because of the passage cited. If included, a more serious analysis is required. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:30, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
** {{re|Lembit Staan}} So are you okay with inclusion of S1, S2, and S4 without Kurek? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 18:29, 15 July 2021 (UTC)


No idea how you're getting this. The only one that's kind of true is Section 1 - reluctant consensus to include. There's obviously no consensus for #2. This has ALREADY been said. Stop it with the [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT]]. As several editors have already noted this kind of approach is just wasting everyone's time. We're simply not putting in anything that involves POV mis translations and original research based on primary sources into a BLP, end of story.

On #4 it definitely has no consensus as long as you're keeping Kurek in there. Let me also note that you never struck the BLP vio comparing her to a Holocaust denier.

And I'm at a complete loss how you think #5 is "lean towards inclusion" when there's  no support for it. It's simply UNDUE.

Again. Up above MVBW said "most of this is UNDUE". You said "I agree". Then you come back and try to force this into the article ANYWAY. Explain how that works. This is just straight up [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT]].

No. Just no.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 16:51, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Seriously, this is kind of messed up. The process here, over and over again has been:
# FR makes some proposals.
# A bunch of editors object to these proposals.
# FR argues with them for a bit then stops responding once it becomes obvious the concerns are legitimate.
# Several days later FR comes back and is all like "ok, it looks like we have consensus to do everything I want to do"
# Other editors are forced to repeat and point out to them that this is not at all the case.
# Go back to 1

This is the very definition of [[WP:TENDENTIOUS]].<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 16:55, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

== For the later record (June 23, 2021) ==

Discussed/rejected/explained topics in Archive 1[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jan_Żaryn/Archive_1] - contrast the current discussions above to Archive 1. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 03:19, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
:For the record, those who have no desire to go through the miles of text above. As of July 1, 2021, there is <u>'''NO''' consensus</u> to include any of the disputed. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 17:37, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
'''See also''' - Related [[WP:ANI]] record [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1070#Disruptive_mass_deletion_behaviour] "Disruptive mass deletion behaviour" - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 20:20, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
:For the record, as of July 1, The proposed texts of "Section 1" and "Section 2" are modified so that I have no objections in terms of the reliability of sources and the reasonable accuracy of our text with respect to the source cited. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 17:58, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

{{ping|François Robere}} It was probably a bad idea to modify the suggested text directly in place of the original proposal. Reading the talk now, it is sometimes impossible to understand what was this fuss about. Now that I made the copies, may be you can restore the original proposals [[#Initial proposals|in the beginning]]? [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 18:17, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
: That's a good idea. I'll do that. Thanks! [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 20:24, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
: PS I've seen your other comments - I'll go over them tomorrow. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 20:37, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
::Honestly, I’m confused as to what the current proposals are, they’ve been refurbished so many times. Up above, as far as section 1 goes that seems now to be fine, section 2 still has the problematic “rational thought” mistranslation in it. In general, anything that relies on problematic translations of WP:PRIMARY sources is a no.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 21:32, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
::: The current proposals are given in separate subsections; the original is given at the top. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 13:59, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
*I am not that familiar with Polish politics, but everything above seems to be an epic struggle about nothing. The subject of this page is only modestly notable, and there is already an excessive description of him and his activities on the page. I would say —''everything under discussion above is arguably undue on the page''. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 18:43, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
::I agree. There are also likewise several issues in the text currently written into the article that needs correction or should be removed, but I’ll get to it once the above jumble is over. No hurry. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 18:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
** I mostly agree. I didn't consider Żaryn important enough to get involved with this article before, and were it not for the way Mhorg was treated[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jan_Żaryn/Archive_1#BLP_vio] I probably wouldn't bother; but it's one of those cases where the harder some editors fight against something, the more motivated I am to learn about it - and the more I learn about it, the more obvious it becomes that we aren't following [[WP:DUE]].{{br}}Żaryn is a notable figure in Polish [[memory politics]] in general and [[PiS]] in particular. This entire discussion is merely about representing his activities in that context. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 19:36, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
***Wait, MVBW says ''everything under discussion above is arguably undue on the page'', you then say “I mostly agree” and then you say that we aren’t “following DUE”. Does that mean that you agree that pretty much all of the stuff discussed above shouldn’t be included? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 22:49, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
::::Yeh, I mean everything in the section "Resolving one by one" above. It just hurts me looking at such discussions. I could only read your suggestions in green boxes at the top and below. All of that can be included or not included. Who cares? If I were VM, I would just agree with François and be done with it. If I were François, I would agree with VM. But if it were my personal choice, I would not include any of that. This is just excessive. A lot of low-significance content can be sourced and included. But we should not do it. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:52, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
::::: {{tq|A lot of low-significance content}}: literally all the historical manipulation work of Zaryn (defined by GizzyCatBella as "''an accepted mainstream expert in historiography''"), and consequently of the PiS, for political purposes. No, François' data collection work and Szmenderowiecki's translation have been very useful and the proposed sections can be enriched or modified, but it is impossible to call them "Undue". <small>Also, MVBW, I remind you that an administrator had already warned you to not follow me anymore.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AMy_very_best_wishes&type=revision&diff=1010530267&oldid=1010514794] There is almost no chance that you could have found this article without checking my history. Behind your "neutral" words, you have taken, for the umpteenth time, the position of declaring something controversial "Undue": it seems to me that you're bringing again your battleground mentality in this dispute.</small>--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 14:26, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::: @ [[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] - I'm going to remind for the <u>last time</u> that this is [[WP:BLP]] article and that rules apply for the talk pages as well. <u>Please familiarize yourself with [[WP:BLP]]</u>. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 14:50, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::::GizzyCatBella, sorry, which BLP rule did I violate? I do not think that to bring the point of view of different academics and newspapers on Zaryn (as shown in the discussions above) is a violation. Or, maybe you are referring to something else?--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 15:06, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::::Accusing the BLP of “ historical manipulation work of Zaryn” is a BLP vio.
::::::::Francois Robere hasn’t done any “data collection” whatever that is suppose to be.
::::::::Szmender *mis* translated at least one passage and actually a couple more, in a way that also constituted egregious BLP vio s, so I’m not sure what you’re praising there.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 21:54, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::I have already reported in May about two articles of Wyborcza in which his contacts with the nationalists inside the institute were shown, and in which he was accused of historical falsehoods. I don't see where my BLP violation is.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJan_%C5%BBaryn&type=revision&diff=1022478889&oldid=1021427506]--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 08:49, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::: Just to be on the safe side, always link your sources whenever you make a statement that can be perceived as a BLP vio, and make sure to follow their wording as closely as you can. Here, for example, "manipulation" can be understood as Żaryn falsifying sources or misrepresenting them intentionally; here "misinterpreting", "promoting debunked interpretations", and even "promoting falsehoods" are better options. {{u|Volunteer Marek}} there's an ESL factor here; maybe educate instead of [[WP:BITE]]? [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 10:48, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::: Can we back to the part where MVBW says “all this is undue”, you say “I agree” and then you still insist on including all this stuff? Seriously, this has been a colossal waste of time that could’ve been easily avoided with a little bit less of [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT]]. You’ve pretty much admitted that the main reason you went to all these lengths and started and dragged out these arguments is not because the material actually belongs in the article but because of who the other editors here were ({{tq| but it's one of those cases where the harder some editors fight against something, the more motivated I am to learn about it }}). Best thing that we can do here is just drop this and move on to other endeavors.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 20:31, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::::No one prevented you from doing the same. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 14:51, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::I agree it hurts looking at such treatises. That said, there's a fragment I cannot concur with:
:::::{{tq|The subject of this page is only modestly notable, and there is already an excessive description of him and his activities on the page. I would say —everything under discussion above is arguably undue on the page.}}
:::::Tell this to the authors of 1508 featured articles, 611 featured lists, 15,213 GAs, 491 A-Class and 44,633 B-Class articles that happen to be of low importance.
:::::You see, my original intention (long gone) was to make a comprehensive overview of the subject, with as many scholars talking about him as I could possibly find. The problem was, the queries I made were mentioning the subject in an almost entirely negative light (and not that I tried to find balancing accounts of RS). Almost a month has passed and no sources were proposed by anyone objecting to the content - instead, the dialogue saw attempts at discrediting the scholars behind the sources or original interpretation of one's thought, which is not what we are asked to do and, in the latter case, not allowed to do.
:::::There exists no such a thing as "a subject not notable enough for a comprehensive article" so long as the expansion happens in accordance with PAG and if the subject himself is notable (and, being a Senator and a rather known historian, he is one). The NOTNEWS concern has already been addressed earlier. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 14:49, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

{{Outdent|11}}[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] - Cherry picked findings of opinion pieces from newspapers simply do not establish '''facts'''. You stating --> quote - {{tq|''literally all the historical manipulation work of Żaryn''}} is a <u>severe</u> [[WP:BLP]] policy violation. You delivered comparable statements in the past; as an example, here[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Lewin_Brzeski&diff=prev&oldid=1012970015&diffmode=source], you called BLP a neo-Nazi in your edit summary without any source supporting it. You were advised <u>several times</u> about [[WP:BLP]] violations on this very page as well - see this discussion[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jan_Żaryn/Archive_1#BLP_vio]. I '''will not''' remind you anymore if similar issues continue, and those mentioned above will be directed somewhere else. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 17:36, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
:I'm sorry, but in Italian first-class RS Tomasz Greniuch is called "neo-Nazi" even in the title of the article: "Poland, the reverse of the neo-Nazi: the director of the Institute of Memory resigns".[https://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2021/02/23/news/polonia_la_retromarcia_del_neonazista_si_dimette_il_direttore_dell_istituto_della_memoria-288789491/] I also talked about this source in the TP of the Institute of National Remembrance.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AInstitute_of_National_Remembrance&type=revision&diff=1013618797&oldid=1013614890]--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 09:47, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
::[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] - It looks to me that you still don’t understand and you need to '''carefully''' read [[WP:BLP]] <u>several times.</u> I advise you do that. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 15:52, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
::You got the clarification [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Tomasz_Greniuch] you were looking for, so I believe it's all transparent for you now, and we will not see [[WP:BLP]] violations anymore. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 08:45, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

== Zaryn's position in the eyes of critics ==
{{collapse top|title=An explanation of my position regarding article subject and sources. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:02, 15 July 2021 (UTC)}}
''Background''. Much derision comes from his idea of Zaryn's "positive mythology" and his desire to defend the "Polish nation". Let us start from the fact that ''every'' country has its positive mythology. Russia has its <s>WWII</s> Great Patriotic War mythology. America has ''lots'' of [[founding myth]]s from its history. They have [[Thanksgiving]] as a central commemoration of an isolated event within the near-complete genocide of indigenious peoples. The latter is not taught in schools. [[Battle of Alamo]] is a saga of heroism, while it was about land grab to preserve American slavery in the area. England: [[Charge of the Light Brigade]] is an example of infinite bravery of British soldier, rather than an infinite stupidity of the military command. Napoleon, a butcher of Europe is national hero in France. ''Ad infinitum''... Nobody teaches young kids their country is full of shit in its history. History is for historians, but popular presentation must make people to be proud of its country, or else.  This is how I understand Zaryn's endeavor. In which IMO he failed miserably.  May he is a good historian in detailed research in some fields, but as a "political popularizer" he is grossly underqualified.

And his opponents have lots of occasions to go after him. However they themselves are not without sin. Here is how a Zaryn's hater [https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1742096,1,senator-zaryn-i-jego-pozytywne-mity-na-temat-polskosci.read article] starts. "There are two rules. First, Poles as a nation are innocent. Secondly, even if this or that compatriot has something behind his ears, the responsibility is solely as an individual. Mostly led astray by enemies. <...> The main ideologist of sinless Polishness in the ruling camp today. " -- It is supposed to be an irony. Really? 
*"Poles as a nation is innocent". The opposite statement is "Poles as a nation is guilty". Do I smell racism here? 
* "Even if this or that compatriot has something behind his ears, the responsibility is solely as an individual" - Firts, this is the grounding principle of the modern law. Not to say that it is a case of hyperbolization: often the responsibility is on certain ''groups'' with common goal, ideology, etc. and Zaryn does not deny this.
* "Mostly led astray by enemies" - It may be a surprize to the critic, but quite often in the history a small aggressive minority may lead astray the whole nation (at least by the appearance). The most recent example is right here at hand: Ukraine. 15% of its population forced the whole population to take the Nazi collaborator, killer of the Jews and Poles [[Stepan Bandera]] to be a national hero of Ukraine. 1% armed neo-nazi minority whose parties do not have ''any'' representation neither in state nor in local parliaments terrorizze the government fo Ukraine.
*"Sinless Polishness" - Polemical bullshit. Zaryn does not claim 100% sinlessness. He merely says that "national mythology" must speak less of sins, but more successes and virtues. Not to say that that to put a blame on the whole nation  ("Polishness") is racism. He does not deny e.g., antiSemitism, but to declare that the whole Polish nation is antiSemitic, is racism. 

And this is just a minuscule example how all aggressive opponents write: they try demolish Zaryn using both ethical an unethical polemical  tricks. The latter things are absolutely out of question in wikipedia per [[WP:BLP]]. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:45, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

: You nailed it again [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]], thank you. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 21:57, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

: [[WP:NOTFORUM]], [[WP:NOTSOAPBOX]], [[WP:BLPTALK]] ("Żaryn's hater"), [[WP:OR]]... [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 08:52, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
::Bullshit. This is my idea how some of the article must be formed and why we must be careful about sources. I merely analyzed a source cited, demonstrating that it is inadmissible as a reliable source due to its bias against the subject. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 15:47, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}
(to be continued, on how the article must be structured: his ''major'' points (not stupid blunders) and criticism of them). [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:45, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

== Not in the source! ==

I removed this[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_Żaryn&diff=1033853833&oldid=1032704330&diffmode=source] from the article because the source[https://www.senat.gov.pl/en/senators/lista-senatorow/senator,942,9,jan-zaryn.html] does not support the text. The source could still be used for other things.- <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 07:55, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

:Sorry, deleting his senatorial career from the lead (where they explicitly say it was the IX term, which, as you can read, is 2015-2019), and his political participation in some organisations (including the committee for the March of Independence) is exactly the reason why I wrote at ANI - find another source, really, that says the same thing - don't just nuke the text. Particularly that being a senator is one of the reasons of notability for him. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 20:58, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

== Szmalcownik ==

{{ping|Lembit Staan}}  You corrected here [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_Żaryn&diff=1034415026&oldid=1034414691&diffmode=source] but is there any reason to include that line at all? Just take a look at the [[Szmalcownik]] article itself - quote: 
{{talkquote|Szmalcowniks came from diverse backgrounds. About three-quarters were Poles, but members of the German, Ukrainian and Lithuanian minorities – and in some cases even Jews – were also engaged in blackmailing.}}
This is referenced to scholarly sources other than Żaryn.
It is a historical fact, but here it is drawn as if Żaryn was declaring something out of the ordinary. Do you believe that the entire line should be discarded the same as I do? - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 19:08, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

:''To those who don't like logical reasoning, '''BUG OFF'''; I am talking to GizzyCatBella, not to you''
:Yes and no. In order to write a decent article about Zaryn, one has to know ''the whole context'' of what's going on not only with Zaryn, but with Polish politicum as a whole. Taken out of context, this sentence does look "out of the blue". But it did not catch my eye as strange, because I know where it was coming from and what it was insinuating. I started to write an explanation in section "Zaryn's position in the eyes of critics", but I was slapped with "NOTAFORUM" label in best traditions of a certain category of disputants who don't bother to address the essence of arguments. So I discontinued it, because [[WP:DGAF]]. I don't know what's your degree of knowledge here, but here is a "satellite view" on Zaryn: he is caught right in the middle of the "clash of conspiracies". Zaryn tries to combat one of them ('''Conspiracy A:''' "Poles are anti-Semites by the very nature of their Polishness"), but due to his sloppiness he gives an ample chance for his opponents to accuse him of propagating the alleged "Polish blamelessness plus victimhood theory" conspiracy theory ('''Conspiracy B'''), up to thinly veiled accusations of anti-Semitism. Supposing this supposition, several disputed statements suggested for inclusion will start making sense:
* "miał swoje umocowanie w racjonalnym myśleniu" ("<antisemitism> was supported/reinforced by rational thinking"; discussed elsewhere above)
::Here Zaryn tries to contest Conspiracy A: Poles are anti-Semites because they are [[True Pole|Catholics in their faith]] and racists in their nature. His effort is understandable, if one remembers where Zaryn is hailing from.
*""mostly due to economic reasons""
::Same as above. It is suggested to add "Historian Dariusz Libionka disagrees with the latter statement", but after reading more of Libionka, -- hell, no (talk about this later).
*<...>
*"szmalcownicy" 
:Yes, as you say, it is a well-known fact, but Zaryn is being accused of cherry-picking factoids to allegedly favor Conspiracy B, and this szmalcownicy "argument" is parroted by many critics (as may see yourself by the amount of refbombing). 
:Zaryn basically says "zsmalcownicy were a cross-section of (not the best part of) the ''whole'' Polish society". (That this is not his finding is irrelevant.) And his opponents say "what now, are you saying Poles are not guilty here????" I have no idea what exactly was written in Zaryn's book ''Polacy ratyjacy Zydow'', but hell I am sure that he did not write as one of his "critics" ""summarized"": "<...>Szmalcowniks were recruited from Germans, Volksdeutsche, Ukrainians, and the Jews themselves. Well, of course there were some Poles among them <...>". If someone shows me that Zaryn did write something like this, I will eat my beard. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 21:39, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
::{{tq|To those who don't like logical reasoning, BUG OFF; I am talking to GizzyCatBella, not to you}} IMHO a rather lousy way to ask people to stay off the discussion and stop analysing whatever you write (which BTW is insulting towards whoever does not agree with you). '''Don't ever do that in any discussion''' - it only makes the situation worse.
::{{tq|he is caught right in the middle of the "clash of conspiracies".}} The text you write actually does not present is as a clash but employing one conspiracy by his critics and assigning (supposedly unfairly) another one coming from the arguments he makes by his same critics, which is less of a clash and more of a full-scaled offensive. The only problem is, don't you find the text eh... too conspiratorial?
::{{tq|I have no idea what exactly was written in Zaryn's book Polacy ratyjacy Zydow, but hell I am sure that he did not write...}} 1. That critic was Libionka; 2. First make sure that he indeed didn't write it, and then say that his arguments are being manipulated. Speculation about what he wrote gives us nothing if you can't say what ''exactly'' he wrote. And even after that, the text can be reasonably interpreted by different ways. So no, excluding opinions of scholars for being harsh is not a good reason to exclude them. [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 21:19, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
:::<plonk> On numerous occasions you demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of [[WP:BLP]], so I am not responding to you anymore: waste of time. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 01:10, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

== RfC: Jan Żaryn ==

<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 16:01, 24 August 2021 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1629820885}}
{{rfc|bio|hist|lang|pol|soc|rfcid=C1900C7}}

This is a five-part RfC, the culmination of [[#Resolving disputes one-by-one|a month's work]] by several editors. The question being asked for each of the sections is:
{{quote|
Should the following be added to the text?

* '''Yes'''
* '''Yes, but...'''
* '''No'''
}}
You may vote in some or all of the sections, as you see fit. 15:45, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

===RfC: Section 1===
{{quote|Żaryn is commonly seen as a [[conservative]] historian promoting [[Polish nationalism|nationalist]]{{efn|<ref name=":13" /><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Mink|first=Georges|title=Les Historiens Polonais Face À L’Expérience De La « Démocratie Illibérale »|url=https://www.histoire-politique.fr/documents/31/dossier/pdf/HP31_Dossier5_GeorgesMink_DEF.pdf|journal=Histoire@Politique|language=fr|issue=31|pages=5|access-date=2021-06-09|quote=Un des historiens propulsés sur le devant de la scène est le professeur Jan Żaryn, ardent défenseur du courant nationaliste et antisémite de « Endecja », dont il se fait le propagateur...}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book |last=Behr |first=Valentin |url=https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-02456069/document |title=Les Polonais et la Shoah. Une nouvelle école historique |publisher=CNRS Éditions |year=2019 |isbn=9782271128997 |editor-last=Kichelewski |editor-first=Audrey |location=Paris |pages=275-290 |language=fr |quote=En revanche, ses chercheurs sont conspués par l’IPN, le gouvernement, une partie des médias et des historiens très présents dans les médias nationalistes, souvent non spécialistes de la Shoah (parmi lesquels Bogdan Musiał, Piotr Gontarczyk, Jan Żaryn et Andrzej Nowak) |editor-last2=Lyon-Caen |editor-first2=Judith |editor-last3=Szurek |editor-first3=Jean-Charles |editor-last4=Wieviorka |editor-first4=Anette}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Czuchnowski |first=Wojciech |date=2018-02-27 |title=Zrozumieć Jana Żaryna |work=Gazeta Wyborcza |url=https://wyborcza.pl/7,75968,23078727,zrozumiec-jana-zaryna.html |access-date=2021-06-24}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Flieger |first=Estera |date=2018-02-27 |title=Marcowa uchwała senatora Żaryna. W '68 Polski nie było |work=Gazeta Wyborcza |url=https://wyborcza.pl/7,75398,23074775,marcowa-uchwala-senatora-zaryna-w-68-polski-nie-bylo.html?disableRedirects=true |access-date=2021-06-24}}</ref>}} and anti-communist<ref>{{Cite journal|last=Stobiecki|first=Rafał|date=Spring 2018|title=Mimo wszystko w obronie polityki historycznej|url=http://ewa.home.amu.edu.pl/Stobiecki,%20W%20obronie%20polityki%20historycznej.pdf|journal=Więź}}</ref> narratives, and one of the main advocates of the [[historical policy of the Law and Justice party]].{{efn|<ref name=":13" /><ref name=":14">{{Cite web|last=Duch-Dyngosz|first=Marta|date=2018-05-30|title=Prawica i Żydzi|url=https://www.miesiecznik.znak.com.pl/marta-duch-dyngosz-prawica-i-zydzi/|access-date=2021-06-09|website=Miesięcznik Znak|language=pl}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Grabowski|first=Jan|date=2017-01-06|title=The Holocaust and Poland's “History Policy”|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23739770.2016.1262991|journal=Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs|language=en|doi=10.1080/23739770.2016.1262991|issn=2373-9770|quote=It is within this context that Żaryn, one of the most prominent advocates of Poland’s history policy, declared in November 2015, “This is the time to begin the much-delayed counterrevolution directed at changing the state of consciousness of the contemporary world, at least in our cultural area.”}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Kończal|first=Kornelia|date=2020-04-23|title=Mnemonic Populism: The Polish Holocaust Law and its Afterlife|url=https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/7A5CB69785AF057A849ABED824FEBD4E/S1062798720000502a.pdf/div-class-title-mnemonic-populism-the-polish-holocaust-law-and-its-afterlife-div.pdf|journal=[[European Review]]|pages=1-13|doi=10.1017/S1062798720000502}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Solska|first=Ewa|date=2018-04-23|title=Mitologizacja i polityzacja historii: co możemy wiedzieć, co możemy zrobić i czego możemy się spodziewać?|url=https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/156900109.pdf|journal=Historia@Teoria|language=pl|volume=4|issue=6|pages=7-8|doi=10.14746/ht.2017.6.4.01}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Friedrich|first=Klaus-Peter|date=2008|title=Polacy i Zydzi pod okupacja niemiecka 1939-1945. Studia i materialy|url=https://www.proquest.com/docview/236710449?pq-origsite=gscholar&fromopenview=true|journal=Jahrbücher für Geschichte Osteuropas|language=de|volume=56|issue=1|eissn=23662891|via=Proquest}}</ref><ref name=":16">{{Cite journal|last=Pankowski|first=Rafał|date=2018-07-04|title=The Resurgence of Antisemitic Discourse in Poland|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23739770.2018.1492781|journal=Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs|language=en|doi=10.1080/23739770.2018.1492781|issn=2373-9770}}</ref>}} He sees Polish [[historical policy]] as a "battle under the banners of sovereignty, justice [and] freedom", with the state exercising it "so that Poles don't mistake where there is good and where there is evil",<ref>{{Cite web|last=Radczenko|first=Antoni|date=2017-09-15|title=W poszukiwaniu polityki historycznej. Dyskusja Żaryn-Valatka|url=https://zw.lt/wilno-wilenszczyzna/w-poszukiwaniu-polityki-historycznej-dyskusja-zaryn-valatka/|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-10|website=zw.lt|language=pl-PL|quote=Polska polityka historyczna, zewnętrzna i wewnętrzna, to jest starcie, na sztandarach którego są suwerenność, sprawiedliwość, wolność. Państwo powinno uprawiać politykę historyczną po to, aby Polacy nie pomyliliby się, gdzie jest dobro, a gdzie jest zło.}}</ref> and wishes to "strengthen the educational role of history" so it becomes a "widely accepted... [[national myth|positive myth"]].<ref name=":21" /><ref>{{Cite web|title=Toczy się walka o polską świadomość – najnowsza książka prof. Jana Żaryna – Strona oficjalna prof. Jana Żaryna|url=http://janzaryn.pl/?p=2414|access-date=2021-06-10|language=pl-PL|quote=Rolą senatora, do której być może szczególnie jestem predestynowany jako profesor historii, jest wzmocnić rolę wychowawczą historii. Tak by nasze dzieje stawały się powszechnie rozpoznawalne i by nas uczyły. Aby były przyjmowane w formule pozytywnych mitów przez większą część społeczeństwa. Mam nadzieję, że tak się rzeczywiście dzieje.}}</ref> Żaryn describes Poles as “loving freedom, Catholicism, patriotism and especially being proud of their history”.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Żaryn|first=Jan|date=2016-03-24|title=Recenzja wewnętrzna: Program funkcjonalno-użytkowy wystawy głównej. Muzeum II wojny światowej w Gdańsku, ss. 75|url=https://muzeum1939.pl/u/pdf/51c98c1f14c16789f8c244b05feed4e4901.pdf|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-09}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=Ciobanu|first=Claudia|date=2017-05-15|title=Poland’s WWII museum under political bombardment|url=https://www.politico.eu/article/polands-wwii-museum-under-political-bombardment/|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-09|website=[[Politico]]|language=en-US}}</ref>}}

{{collapse top|title=References|bg=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)|border2=0px|width=97%}}
{{notelist-talk}}
{{reflist|
# <ref name=":13">{{Cite journal|last=Zalewski|first=Frédéric|date=2020|title=Les Marches de l’Indépendance à Varsovie. Recompositions et transformations des droites extrêmes depuis les années 2000 en Pologne|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/27005499|journal=Cultures et Conflits|language=fr|issue=117|pages=53|issn=1157-996X}}</ref>
# <ref name=":21">{{Cite web|last=Kalukin|first=Rafał|date=2018-03-20|title=Senator Żaryn i obce siły|url=https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1742096,1,senator-zaryn-i-jego-pozytywne-mity-na-temat-polskosci.read|url-status=live|archive-url=http://janzaryn.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/polityka_2018_03_21_dzieje_bez_grzechu__pdf_bn_k_p.pdf|archive-date=2018-03-21|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Polityka|language=pl}}</ref>
}}

; Background
* Frédéric Zalewski is a senior lecturer in political science at the [[CNRS]] ''Institut des sciences sociales du politique'' at [[Paris Nanterre University|Paris Nanterre]][https://isp.cnrs.fr/?project=zalewski-frederic]
* Georges Mink is a sociologist and political scientist, Director of Research at the [[CNRS]] ''Institut des sciences sociales du politique'' at [[Paris Nanterre University|Paris Nanterre]], and President of the International Council for Central and East European Studies (ICCEES)[https://www.coleurope.eu/whoswho/person/georges.mink]
* Valentin Behr is a researcher in political science at the [[University of Strasbourg]] who specialzies in Polish historiography[https://www.paris-iea.fr/en/fellows/valentin-behr-2]
* [[:pl:Wojciech Czuchnowski|Wojciech Czuchnowski]] is a Polish journalist, winner of the ''[[:pl:Grand Press|Grand Press]]'' award and author of two books
* [[Jacek Leociak]], head of the Holocaust Literature Research Group of the [[Polish Academy of Sciences]],[https://ibl.waw.pl/pl/o-instytucie/pracownicy/leociak-jacek] in an interview with Estera Flieger, a Polish journalist who has published in the ''[[Guardian]]'', '' Newsweek Historia'' and ''Notes from Poland'' <small>(Added interviewee's details 20:14, 21 July 2021 (UTC))</small>
* Rafał Stobiecki is a professor of history at the [[University of Łódź]] specializing in Polish historiography[http://www.historia.uni.lodz.pl/index.php/prof-dr-hab-rafal-stobiecki]
* Marta Duch-Dyngosz is a sociologist specializing in Polish-Jewish relations[https://jagiellonian.academia.edu/MartaDuchDyngosz]
* [[Jan Grabowski]] is a professor of history at the [[University of Ottawa]] and co-founder of the [[Polish Center for Holocaust Research]]
* Kornelia Kończal is an historian at the [[Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich]][https://www.en.gose.geschichte.uni-muenchen.de/people/coordinator-poland-and-germany/konczal/index.html]
* Ewa Solska is an adjunct professor for historical methodology at [[Maria Curie-Skłodowska University]][https://www.umcs.pl/pl/addres-book-employee,2556,pl.html]
* Klaus-Peter Friedrich is a German historian, member of the ''Geschichtswerkstatt Marburg''
* [[Rafał Pankowski ]] is a sociologist and political scientist at [[Collegium Civitas]][https://www.civitas.edu.pl/pl/uczelnia/nasi-wykladowcy/pankowski-rafal] and chair of the [["Never Again" Association]]
* [[:pl:Antoni Radczenko|Antoni Radczenko]] is a Polish-Lithuanian journalist, former editor-in-chief of ''Znad Wilii''
* [[:pl:Rafał Kalukin|Rafał Kalukin]] is a Polish journalist writing for ''[[:pl:Polityka (tygodnik)|Polityka]]''. He has previously written for ''[[Newsweek Polska]]''
* Claudia Ciobanu is the Poland correspondent for ''[[Balkan Insight]]''.[https://balkaninsight.com/reporting-democracy/] She's also written for ''[[Politico]]'', ''[[Guardian]]'' and ''[[Al Jazeera]]''
{{collapse bottom}}

====Vote (RfC: Section 1)====
* yes (but remove part related to "positive myth")  [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:03, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
* The stuff on the "positive myth" is *supposedly* cited to two sources. The first one is a user generated translation of a primary source so WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. The second one doesn't actually say it. So no on that part. This has already been said a million times so I don't know what it's still doing in the proposal. [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT]].<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 17:44, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
**You are right, I am so tired with this discussion, with poles shifting back and forth, that failed to notice this piece of WP:SYNTH of citations, placed together in a way to produce something Zaryn didn't say. While the terminology about "positive mythology" is indeed a trademark of Zaryn, this part about "positive myth" must be removed.
**I guess you are right, Marek. Time to initiate topic ban procedure. This beciomes to wasteful of time. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 19:48, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
** {{re|Lembit Staan}} Three weeks ago you said "I see no glaring issues with the current state of Section 1"[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1030582305&oldid=1030579588&diffmode=source] and "I have no objections with the usage of the sources cited".[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1030889372&oldid=1030889104&diffmode=source] This is almost exactly the same text... [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 13:15, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
***Well, I was mistaken to trust the authors to correctly transcribe the source. You didnt learn from this long discussion after all. If you genuinely do not see the difference between what was in the source and what is in wikipedia, you should recluse yourself from the subject.  [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 15:50, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
**** You used the same terms, and even explained what they mean...[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1030582305&oldid=1030579588&diffmode=source] [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 16:12, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
*****I wrote what I wrote, both there and here. You misquoted Zaryn making it to appear that he said a stupid thing which he didnt. Period. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:35, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
* Concur with Volunteer Marek. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 03:36, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
* '''Yes''' to the first part; ambivalent about the last part; the rest falls under [[WP:TRANSCRIPTION]], [[WP:RSUE]] and [[WP:TRLA]]. All of the translations include the Polish original in footnote, so you can check their accuracy yourself. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 15:14, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
* '''Yes to the whole part, even the "myth".''' As I have already said, it is important to frame how this person is politically defined. About the "myth" the source[https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1742096,1,senator-zaryn-i-jego-pozytywne-mity-na-temat-polskosci.read] attributes this to Zaryn:"''Który sam o sobie mówi, że jego zadaniem jest kreowanie „pozytywnych mitów” na temat polskości.''". Seems enough to me.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 09:04, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''No''' - per 3 month discussions above and below this RfC. (Please see the entire debate, not only this RfC) - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 11:19, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
====Discussion (RfC: Section 1)====
*
*
*

===RfC: Section 2===
{{quote|Żaryn believes that anti-Semitism in [[Interwar Poland]] was reinforced by "rational thinking",<ref name=":19">{{Cite web|date=2018-02-22|title=Best of "Onet Opinie". Jan Żaryn gościem Andrzeja Stankiewicza|url=https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/opinie/best-of-onet-opinie-jan-zaryn-gosciem-andrzeja-stankiewicza/qg06n91|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Onet Wiadomości|language=pl|quote=Nie, nie jesteśmy niepokalanym narodem. Przed wojną też był antysemityzm, ale on też miał swoje umocowanie w racjonalnym myśleniu.}}</ref> and argues that Polish-Jewish "tensions" intensified mostly due to economic reasons.<ref name=":21" /><ref name=":12" /><ref name=":18">{{Cite journal|last=Koźmińska-Frejlak|first=Ewa|date=2009-11-09|title=Edukacja czy dialog z cieniami… Kilka uwag na marginesie „Tek edukacyjnych” Polacy ratujący Żydów w latach II wojny światowej|url=https://zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/330/357/667|journal=Zagłada Żydów. Studia i Materiały|language=pl|issue=5|pages=467-480|doi=10.32927/ZZSiM.330}}</ref> [[Dariusz Libionka]] disagrees; criticizing Żaryn's article ''Holocaust'',<ref>{{Cite web |last=Żaryn |first=Jan |title=The Holocaust |url=https://en.truthaboutcamps.eu/thn/holocaust/15609,The-Holocaust.html |access-date=2021-07-02 |website=Truth About Camps {{!}} W imię prawdy historycznej |language=en}}</ref> Libionka points out many errors and sloppy statements, and states that Żaryn "does not know basic facts" about World War II. He notes that, while Żaryn's works on other subjects are often "valuable historical literature", those on Polish-Jewish relations are tainted by his "ideological sympathies and inspirations".<ref name="Libionka 2013">{{Cite journal |last=Libionka |first=Dariusz |date=2013 |title=“Truth About Camps” or the Uneventful 1942 |url=https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/841/812 |journal=Zagłada Żydów. Studia i Materiały Holocaust Studies and Materials |pages=579-589}}</ref>

Ewa Koźmińska-Frejlak writes in her review of Żaryn's introduction to the educational booklet ''Polacy ratujący Żydów w latach II wojny światowej'' (''Polish rescuers of Jews during World War II''),<ref>{{Cite book |last=Żaryn |first=Jan |title=Polacy ratujący Żydów w latach II wojny światowej |publisher=Instytut Pamięci Narodowej |year=2008 |editor-last=Chojnacki |editor-first=Piotr |location=Warsaw |pages=5-11 |chapter=Wprowadzenie |editor-last2=Mazek |editor-first2=Dorota}}</ref> that Żaryn is advancing his own views rather than simply presenting facts, leaving the impression that he is trying to "[[blaming the victim|blame the victim]]" (the Jews) in order to diminish the responsibility assigned to Poles.<ref name=":18" />}}

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{{reflist|
# <ref name=":12">{{Cite journal|last=Libionka|first=Dariusz|date=2013-12-02|title=Truth About Camps, or the Uneventful 1942|url=https://www.zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/download/841/812|journal=Holocaust Studies and Materials|pages=579-589|doi=10.32927/zzsim.841}}</ref>
# <ref name=":21">{{Cite web|last=Kalukin|first=Rafał|date=2018-03-20|title=Senator Żaryn i obce siły|url=https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1742096,1,senator-zaryn-i-jego-pozytywne-mity-na-temat-polskosci.read|url-status=live|archive-url=http://janzaryn.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/polityka_2018_03_21_dzieje_bez_grzechu__pdf_bn_k_p.pdf|archive-date=2018-03-21|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Polityka|language=pl}}</ref>
}}

; Background
* [[:pl:Rafał Kalukin|Rafał Kalukin]] is a Polish journalist writing for ''[[:pl:Polityka (tygodnik)|Polityka]]''. He has previously written for ''[[Newsweek Polska]]''
* [[Dariusz Libionka]] is an historian at the [[Institute of National Remembrance]]
* Ewa Koźmińska-Frejak is a sociologist at the Institute of Jewish History of the [[Polish Academy of Sciences]] [https://ibl.waw.pl/pl/o-instytucie/pracownie-i-zespoly/pracowniawspolczesnejliteraturyikomunikacjisp/seminarium-kategorie-opisu-zaglady-w-polsce-/sklad-seminarium]
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====Vote (RfC: Section 2)====
*yes, but "Libonka disagrees" and nitpicking about Zarnn's knowledge about WWII must be removed as irrelevaant to section about Zaryn's views. Other judgements are OK [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:08, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
* '''No''' I see heavy use of [[MOS:SCAREQUOTES|scare quotes]] in way too many sentences to imply wrong facts like ''Polish-Jewish "tensions"''. There's a slippery slope into controversy sections on BLP, not all opinions about a subject belong on a person's biography per WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Are these people's takes on the subject's views notable? According to whom? One should be careful even more so when dealing with accusations that are borderline defamatory per WP:BLP like implying anti-semitism. Also the wording "promoting anti-communist narratives" makes it seem like the subject is pushing a fringe dangerous ideology. What is an anti-communist narrative? Is he an anti-communist? The ending sentence (in section 1) is sourced to Politico which quotes him saying {{tq|Żaryn argued that the museum should have concentrated more on depicting “features characteristic of Poles'” such as “loving freedom, Catholicism, patriotism and especially being proud of their history.”}}. The RfC wording suggestion is misusing this source as it makes it seem like the subject thinks these are the only characteristics of Poles, when he was just using examples (key wording "such as" missing) and in a very specific topic (the Museum portrayal of Poles) --[[User:Loganmac|Loganmac]] ([[User talk:Loganmac|talk]]) 02:26, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
* '''A cleaned up version would be okay'''.  I concur with Loganmac that a bunch of "scare-quoting" is being unencyclopedically used here; these are not actual quotations of Żaryn.  The overall gist of this section seems correct, {{lang|la|modulo}} Lembit Staan's narrow objections above; it just needs to not be written like a high-school paper.  We do need to summarize what Żaryn's views are [reported to be], without trying to characterize/spin them with buzzword phrases. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 03:41, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
* '''Yes, per SMcCandlish'''. {{re|Loganmac|SMcCandlish}} We went through several revisions of this paragraph; this is actually Lembit Staan's phrasing[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_Żaryn&diff=1031260544&oldid=1031245850&diffmode=source][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&type=revision&diff=1031278890&oldid=1031277999&diffmode=source][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_Żaryn&diff=1031437183&oldid=1031278890&diffmode=source] (cf. [[Talk:Jan Żaryn/Archive 1#Other sources|Libionka's quote]]). Most of the sources are notable academics, as you can see in the reference section. As for Politico - this is the first time the issue is raised, but you're right that it's out of context. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 13:06, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''Yes''', just maybe replace the quotes with a summary. Koźmińska-Frejlak and Libionka are experts on this type of denialism. Żaryn is known for his anti-Jewish controversies, his political roles were full of them.[[Special:Contributions/130.180.196.39|130.180.196.39]] ([[User talk:130.180.196.39|talk]]) 05:46, 22 July 2021 (UTC)<---  <small>— [[Special:Contributions/130.180.196.39|130.180.196.39]] ([[User talk:130.180.196.39|talk]]) has made [[wikipedia:Single-purpose_account|no other edits]] outside this topic. Possible [[WP:BLP]] violation as well </small>
:: - Here we go again; an IP arrives making gross [[WP:BLP]] violations. We are dealing with such behaviour since the beginning [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jan_Żaryn/Archive_1#BLP_vio]. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 09:15, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
:: - I seriously believe administrators should take a look at the entire dispute with their hammers ready to strike... - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 09:23, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
:::''[[WP:DELICIOUS|Bon appétit.]]'' (I mean, no, really, you've got SPI and ANI - there's no use making these arguments here). [[User:Szmenderowiecki|Szmenderowiecki]] ([[User talk:Szmenderowiecki|talk]]) 20:38, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''Ok with the cleaned up version''' as suggested by SMcCandlish.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 09:09, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''No''' - per 3 month discussions above and below this RfC. (Please see the entire debate, not only this RfC) - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 11:20, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
* Definitely '''No''' as long as the user generated translation/[[WP:OR|original research]] about “rational thinking” is included. This has been explained in much detail so why are you still putting it in there? 1) we really can’t use user generated translations of [[WP:PRIMARY]] sources (especially when the users doing the translation’ aren’t even fluent and are working off an audio source) as that’s a clear case of original research. That’s how we got the whole fiasco above where a passage was falsely translated to say opposite of what it actually said. You’d think FR would learn his lesson from that embarrassing episode, but apparently not, since here we are. 2) unsurprisingly, this is also a mistranslation, as has also been extensively explained. Sheesh. Is there a Guinness Book World Record for [[WP:TENDENTIOUS]]? Cuz this is up there.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 19:56, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
**Marek, the current translation is reasonable close to Zaryn's intention, if you read the source. After this sloppy blurb he gives an example what he had in mind: (here is my retelling) Jews in the areas with secessionist  attitudes were in favor of joining Germany, hence it is rational for Poles to dislike them. (I am not sure whether Zaryn thought this up by himself, or just "invoked" :-) the German [[Stab-in-the-back myth]].) It was an interview and it is possible Zaryn didnt express himself in a clear way (or may be his thinking it not clear ''per se''). There was a disagreement about proper translation. I myself cannot find a good equivalent. And I agree that transslation of an ambiguous piece amounts to original research. And here is another argument coming to my mind '''in favor of removing this piece''' : we could have figured out how to spell it properly, if Zaryn uttered this idea several times in several ways. But we have only a single reference. Therefore  we cannot put it into wikipedia as a prominent part of his ideology. May be it was a random thought and he already forgot about it. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 20:44, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
** Per [[WP:TRANSCRIPTION]], "faithfully translating sourced material into English, or transcribing spoken words from audio or video sources, is not considered original research". This was formulated in collaboration with Lembit Staan using a written source, and the section as a whole was reviewed by other native speakers including Piotrus. All of the translations include the original in footnote, in accordance with [[WP:RSUE]]. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 10:31, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
:::No. This is 1) referring to translation of '''SECONDARY''' sources, not translating PRIMARY sources, which is quintessential original research (especially when done by people who aren't even fluent in the language). And 2) there is that "faithfully" in there. This isn't "faithfully". All this too has already been explained.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 16:51, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

====Discussion (RfC: Section 2)====
*
*
*

===RfC: Section 3===
{{quote|Co-editor of a two-volume monograph on the [[Kielce pogrom]],<ref>{{Cite book |last=Kamiński |first=Łukasz |url=https://www.worldcat.org/title/reflections-on-the-kielce-pogrom/oclc/85784471 |title=Reflections on the Kielce pogrom |last2=Żaryn |first2=Jan |last3=Instytut Pamięci Narodowej - Komisja Ścigania Zbrodni przeciwko Narodowi Polskiemu |date=2006 |publisher=Institute of National Remembrance |isbn=978-83-60464-23-6 |location=Warsaw |language=English |oclc=85784471}}</ref> Żaryn has stated that "a significant proportion of Jewish individuals... supported the communist authorities or... joined their ranks"; he blames those individuals for "censorship and propaganda, slander... and deceitfully remaining silent about Soviet massacres." This, he believes, "intensified anti-Semitic attitudes" that resulted in the [[Kielce pogrom]].<ref>{{Cite book |last=Żaryn |first=Jan |url=https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/457021849 |title=It all began in Poland: 1939-1989 |date=2009 |publisher=Oficyna Wydawnicza "Volumen" |year=2009 |isbn=978-83-7233-151-9 |editor-last=Niegowska |editor-first=Agnieszka |location=Warsaw |pages=81-82 |chapter=Communism Polish Style (1944 – 1956) |oclc=457021849}}</ref><ref name="Korycki 2017" /> This narrative is criticized by [[Rafał Pankowski]] and and Kate Korycki as evoking the stereotype of ''[[Żydokomuna]]''.<ref name=":16">{{Cite journal|last=Pankowski|first=Rafał|date=2018-07-04|title=The Resurgence of Antisemitic Discourse in Poland|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23739770.2018.1492781|journal=Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs|language=en|doi=10.1080/23739770.2018.1492781|issn=2373-9770|quote=Representatives of the ruling party also repeatedly alluded to the stereotype of Żydokomuna in discussions surrounding the new legislation. Jewish participation in communist crimes against Poland was stressed by several politicians. For example, a summary of Senator Jan Żaryn’s interview on state radio included the following passage: “Professor Żaryn discussed on Radio 3 the participation of Jews in the mass killings of Poles in the Eastern territories, and the assistance provided by Jews in the occupation of Poland by the Red Army.}}</ref><ref name="Korycki 2019">{{Cite journal|last=Korycki|first=Kate|date=2019-03-31|title=Polticized memory in Poland: anti-communism and the Holocaust|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17504902.2019.1567669|journal=Holocaust Studies|language=en|pages=357|doi=10.1080/17504902.2019.1567669|issn=1750-4902}}</ref> Korycki writes that this narrative "unwittingly recycles many Polish anti-Semitic tropes", adding that Żaryn "[uses] a description of the post-war pogrom in Kielce, perpetrated on Jews by Poles, [as] an opportunity to blame the Jews".<ref name="Korycki 2017">{{Cite journal |last=Korycki |first=Kate |date=2017-08-01 |title=Memory, Party Politics, and Post-Transition Space: The Case of Poland |url=https://doi.org/10.1177/0888325417700263 |journal=East European Politics and Societies |language=en |volume=31 |issue=3 |pages=518–544 |doi=10.1177/0888325417700263 |issn=0888-3254}}</ref>}}

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{{reflist}}

; Background
* Kate Korycki is a political sociologist at the [[University of Western Ontario]] specializing in identity and memory politics[https://www.uwo.ca/womens/people/Korycki.html]
* [[Rafał Pankowski ]] is a sociologist and political scientist at [[Collegium Civitas]][https://www.civitas.edu.pl/pl/uczelnia/nasi-wykladowcy/pankowski-rafal] and chair of the [["Never Again" Association]]
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====Vote (RfC: Section 3)====
* No. The second part is basically false accusation of antiSemitism, hence cannot be here per [[WP:BLP]]. Also, as I explained in the discussion the accusation is based on twisting and spinning of what Zaryn wrote by person of dubious credentials, hence unreliable source. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:13, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
* Yes, if the sources are good enough.  I have to disagree with Lembit Staan; criticism of victim-blaming and "unwittingly" playing into anti-Semitic tropes is not an accusation of anti-Semitism, but simply is exactly what it is: well-reasoned criticism. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 03:44, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
**{{ping|SMcCandlish}} --yes, "unwittingy playing into " is "unwittingly supporting", i.e., [[useful idiot]] thingy, i.e., an accusation.  You probably didn't read the discussion above on the issue (nobody can have such a stamina). The source cited is ''unreliable'' because it uses a straw man argument in a blatant way: it cites Zaryn and ''right in this place'' spins his words. Basically, the difference is between '''(A)''' "Jews were prominent in the communist security police hence they got what they deserved" and '''(B) ''' "Jews were prominent in the communist security police hence in the eyes of polish anti-Semites they got what they deserved". I.e. Zatryn was ''explaining'' Polish antisemitism using [[Zydokomuna]] conspiracy as an example. Zaryn's critics invoked the equivocation "invoked" and didn say with what purpose it was "invoked", thus creating an impression that Zaryn "unwittingly" said (A), i.e., that he somehow either justified  or denied Polish antisemitism (the trope repeated in various forms whenever critics comment on anything Zaryn said about the Jews vs. Poles).  [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:12, 21 July 2021 (UTC) 
* '''Yes'''. Good sourcing, accurate quotes, and not too long. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 15:48, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
* '''Yes''', if the sources are not subject to criticism, it seems to me that the text is well written.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 09:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''No''' - obviously, per 3 month discussions above and below this RfC. <small>(Please relate to the entire debate, not only this RfC)</small> - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 11:13, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

====Discussion (RfC: Section 3)====
*
*
*

===RfC: Section 4===
{{quote|Żaryn has stated that the accepted narrative of the [[Jedwabne pogrom]] is a "[[founding myth]]" of the "allegedly proven" organized massacres of Jews by Poles, supposedly rooted in inherent Polish [[anti-Semitism]] and [[xenophobia]],<ref name=":20">{{Cite web|date=2019-07-10|title=Przypominamy. Prof. Żaryn: Polska racja stanu polega na wznowieniu ekshumacje w Jedwabnem|url=https://www.tysol.pl/a34487-tylko-u-nas-Przypominamy-Prof-Zaryn-Polska-racja-stanu-polega-na-wznowieniu-ekshumacje-w-Jedwabnem|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-09|website=tysol.pl|language=pl|quote=To jest ważne także z perspektywy politycznej, dlatego podkreśliłem, że piszę to jako historyk i jako senator, ponieważ kłamliwa, jak dziś wiemy jako badacze, wersja dotycząca przebiegu zdarzeń w Jedwabnem jest uprawomocniona przez dziesiątki tysięcy, i setki tysięcy zapewne, publikacji. Stanowi już mit założycielski dotyczący rzekomo udowodnionego polskiego zorganizowanego mordowania Żydów wyrastającego jakoby z polskiego, wypijanego z mlekiem matki antysemityzmu, ksenofobii, a na dodatek, w kontekście naszej chrześcijańskiej tożsamości. Te wszystkie nieprawdziwe stereotypy mają pożywkę w postaci niewystarczająco udokumentowanego do dzisiaj fragmentu dziejów II wojny światowej na terytorium Polski. I dopóki to udokumentowanie nie nastąpi, nie ma także możliwości, by zweryfikować te mitologiczne wersje.}}</ref> which he believes is are "false stereotypes" that could be clarified with further research.<ref name=":20" /> According to Żaryn, the Jedwabne events were directed by the Germans with the participation of ''[[Volksdeutsche]]'' and "outsiders" who came from other villages.<ref name=":15">{{Cite web|title=Prof. Jan Żaryn: Niemcy byli "reżyserami" pogromów takich jak w Jedwabnem|url=https://dzieje.pl/aktualnosci/prof-jan-zaryn-niemcy-byli-rezyserami-pogromow-takich-jak-w-jedwabnem|access-date=2021-06-09|website=dzieje.pl|language=pl|quote=Fakty są takie, że Niemcy próbowali prowokować Polaków do takich działań posiłkując się stanem ich rzeczywistych emocji po okupacji sowieckiej i dążyli do wprowadzenia ich w krąg nienawiści budowany przez oddziały Einsatzgruppen. Formacje te były rzeczywistymi reżyserami każdego z kilkunastu tragicznych zbrodni z czerwca i lipca 1941 r., począwszy od wydarzeń w Białymstoku, poprzez Wąsocz, Radziłów, na Jedwabnem kończąc. Wszędzie tam Niemcy próbują przymusić Polaków do uczestnictwa w tych mordach, co w większości wypadków się nie udaje, a jeśli to jedynie w formie biernej. Oczywiście w Jedwabnem znajdują folksdojczów i osoby spoza tej miejscowości, które przychodzą tam razem z Niemcami. Wszystko jednak dzieje się pod dyktando niemieckie.}}</ref> He adds that "even if some of the Polish locals participated in this 'spectacle' under duress... the majority looked in disgust at what the Germans have done...".<ref name=":15" /> Żaryn states that "the deceitful narrative [of Jedwabne] burdens the Poles and Poland with co-responsibility for the Holocaust".<ref>{{Cite web|date=2018-02-21|title=Jan Żaryn o ekshumacji w Jedwabnem|url=https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/jan-zaryn-o-ekshumacji-w-jedwabnem/csfg8x4|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Onet Wiadomości|language=pl|quote=Jedwabne zostało skrócone do przekazu kłamliwego. Ten przekaz obciąża Polskę i Polaków współodpowiedzialnością za Holokaust.}}</ref> Consequently, he has supported the efforts led by [[Ewa Kurek]] to [[exhumation|exhume]] the bodies of Jedwabne's victims.<ref name=":19">{{Cite web|date=2018-02-22|title=Best of "Onet Opinie". Jan Żaryn gościem Andrzeja Stankiewicza|url=https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/opinie/best-of-onet-opinie-jan-zaryn-gosciem-andrzeja-stankiewicza/qg06n91|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Onet Wiadomości|language=pl}}</ref><ref name=":20" /><ref>{{Cite news |title=Arcyciekawa dyskusja Kurek z Żarynem we wPolsce.pl! |work=wPolityce.pl |url=https://wpolityce.pl/polityka/440256-arcyciekawa-dyskusja-kurek-z-zarynem-we-wpolscepl |access-date=2021-07-20}}</ref>}}

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====Vote (RfC: Section 4)====
* yes, but Ewa Kurek is irrelevant. He supports exhumation. Period. Regardless who will carry it out. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:16, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
:: [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] - Even one line, ''" He supports exhumation. Period."'' is UNDUE for biographies. Here is a correctly written biography of [[Jacek Leociak]]. It's one of the Żaryn's critics who is against the exhumations. '''Do we see anything in his biography that he is against the exhumation?''' No. Because this information is UNDUE for BLP. Do we see every single critique from newspapers of that person googled from the internet? Again NO. Because it is UNDUE, and '''who cares''' what Źaryn[http://janzaryn.pl/?p=4405] or some journalist says about Jacek Leociak and vice versa. But what we are seeing here on this [[WP:BLP]] article is <u>a persistent</u> attempt to add things like ''"Leociak says that Żaryn.." ''etc. and every other little dirt one can google on the internet. Why? Well, you can examine that yourself ... - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 21:10, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
::: Please allow me to disagree here. Exhumation is fully in line with his theory that we do not have complete information on what was going on in Jedwabne, and this section says of this IMO in a coherent and a neutral way.  I cann undertandd that some may see this as kind of "grave desecration". But many places were exhumed many times. Out of my head I can name [[Katyn]] and [[Sandarmokh]]. The last case is very similar to Jedwabne: first it was exhumed by the initiative of Memorial society. Later Russain authorities decided to revise this to put some blame on Finns. Same here. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 22:34, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
* Yup, the Kurek stuff needs to go. This has also been said million times. One editor already got topic banned (then indef banned) for BLP violations regarding that person.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 17:46, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
* Yes, but remove all this "scare-quoting". Do not use quotation marks for anything but actual quotations, and source each quotation {{lang|la|in situ}}.  It is not encyclopedic writing to imply things and "steer" the reader's interpretation with buzzwordy phrasing and manipulative language. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 03:45, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
* '''Yes'''. {{re|SMcCandlish}} the quotation marks are just there to mitigate any claims of copy-vio.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1031472528&oldid=1031471969&diffmode=source] No problem removing them if that's not an issue. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 15:58, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''No''' - per 3 month discussions above and below this RfC. (Please see the entire debate, not only this RfC)-<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 11:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''Yes, also the Ewa Kurek part''', I don't even see the controversy talking about her... indeed, it adds interesting information to the context.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 07:31, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

====Discussion (RfC: Section 4)====
*
*
*

===RfC: Section 5===
{{quote|In 2018 Żaryn had proposed a Senate resolution for the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the [[1968 Polish political crisis|March 1968 political crisis]]. An excerpt of the resolution stated that "in arranging anti-Semitic demonstrations and forcing Poles to take part, as well as by introducing pathological anti-Jewish sentiments into the public discourse, the communist government did not represent the will of the People, but only that of [[Moscow]] and its intra-communist and international interests". This has been criticized by historians as an attempt at [[Whitewashing (censorship)|whitewashing]] Polish history,<ref>{{Cite web|last=Pacewicz|first=Piotr|date=2018-03-01|title=Jak się Żydów przeprasza, to po co ich obrażać - o uchwale senatora Żaryna (PiS) mówi prof. Osęka. Prawda o Marcu 1968|url=https://oko.press/sie-zydow-przeprasza-obrazac-o-uchwale-zaryna-pis-mowi-prof-oseka-prawda-o-marcu-1968/|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-07|website=oko.press}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|date=2018-02-27|title=Senator Żaryn autorem uchwały, która ma zostać przyjęta w rocznicę Marca'68. Czeka nas kolejny skandal?|url=https://www.newsweek.pl/polska/polityka/czy-polska-istniala-w-1968-roku-to-nie-my-nas-nie-bylo/00vp4fn|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-07|website=Newsweek.pl|language=pl}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=Dobrosz-Oracz|first=Justyna|date=2018-03-02|title=Jan Żaryn o swojej kontrowersyjnej uchwale. W 68' nie istniało państwo polskie?|url=https://wyborcza.pl/10,152484,23092966,jan-zaryn-o-swojej-kontrowersyjnej-uchwale-w-68-nie-istnialo.html|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-07|website=[[Gazeta Wyborcza]]|language=pl}}</ref> and proved controversial even in Żaryn's own party.<ref name=":21" /> Two weeks after the proposal was abandoned, Żaryn proposed that Israeli ambassador [[Anna Azari]], who commented on the anti-Semitic events of [[1968 Polish political crisis|March 1968]], be deported.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Polish senator suggests expelling Israeli envoy for linking ruling party to 1968 purge of Jews|url=https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/polish-senator-suggests-expelling-israeli-envoy-for-68-purge-remarks-1.5889384|access-date=2021-06-07|website=Haaretz.com|language=en}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|title=Żaryn o wypowiedzi ambasador Izraela: może trzeba poprosić tę panią, by opuściła to państwo - Polsat News|url=https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2018-03-09/zaryn-o-wypowiedzi-ambasador-izraela-moze-trzeba-poprosic-te-pania-by-opuscila-to-panstwo/|access-date=2021-06-07|website=polsatnews.pl|language=pl}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=Hartman|first=Jan|author-link=Jan Hartman (philosopher)|date=2018-03-09|title=Skandaliczne słowa prof. Żaryna o ambasador Izraela|url=https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1741106,1,skandaliczne-slowa-prof-zaryna-o-ambasador-izraela.read|url-status=live|access-date=2021-06-07|website=Polityka|language=pl}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|title=Zdecydowane słowa prof. Żaryna dla wPolsce.pl o wypowiedzi ambasador Azari: "Może trzeba poprosić tę panią, by opuściła to państwo"|url=https://wpolityce.pl/polityka/385150-zdecydowane-slowa-prof-zaryna-dla-wpolscepl-o-wypowiedzi-ambasador-azari-moze-trzeba-poprosic-te-pania-by-opuscila-to-panstwo|access-date=2021-06-07|website=wpolityce.pl}}</ref>}}

{{collapse top|title=References|bg=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)|border2=0px|width=97%}}
{{reflist|
# <ref name=":21">{{Cite web|last=Kalukin|first=Rafał|date=2018-03-20|title=Senator Żaryn i obce siły|url=https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1742096,1,senator-zaryn-i-jego-pozytywne-mity-na-temat-polskosci.read|url-status=live|archive-url=http://janzaryn.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/polityka_2018_03_21_dzieje_bez_grzechu__pdf_bn_k_p.pdf|archive-date=2018-03-21|access-date=2021-06-10|website=Polityka|language=pl}}</ref>
}}

; Background
* [[:pl:Piotr Osęka|Piotr Osęka]], researcher at the Institute of Political Studies of the [[Polish Academy of Sciences]],[https://politic.edu.pl/faculty/associate-professor-piotr-oseka/] in an interviewed with [[:pl:Piotr Pacewicz|Piotr Pacewicz]], co-founder of [[OKO.press]] and former assistant professor of psychology at the [[Polish Academy of Sciences]] <small>(Added interviewee's details 20:14, 21 July 2021 (UTC))</small>
* [[Jacek Leociak]], head of the Holocaust Literature Research Group of the [[Polish Academy of Sciences]],[https://ibl.waw.pl/pl/o-instytucie/pracownicy/leociak-jacek] in an interview with Justyna Dobrosz-Oracz, political correspondent for ''[[Gazeta Wyborcza]]'' <small>(Added interviewee's details 20:14, 21 July 2021 (UTC))</small>
* [[:pl:Rafał Kalukin|Rafał Kalukin]] is a Polish journalist writing for ''[[:pl:Polityka (tygodnik)|Polityka]]''. He has previously written for ''[[Newsweek Polska]]''
* [[Jan Hartman (philosopher)|Jan Hartman]] is a political philosopher, chair of the department of philosophy and bioethics at [[Jagiellonian University]],[https://bioetyka.wnz.cm.uj.edu.pl/en/people/prof-dr-hab-jan-hartman/] and winner of the ''[[:pl:Grand Press|Grand Press]]'' award for his journalistic work
{{collapse bottom}}

====Vote (RfC: Section 5)====
* No.  [[WP:SYNTH]]. Produces wrong narrative. The resolution was rejected because it was overwhelmingly bad, not because of this particular passage. The part about ambassador taken out of context and missummarized is inadmissible per [[WP:BLP]]. [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 16:18, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
* I don't care if this RfC passes or not, there's no fucking way we're putting such a blatant BLP violation in the article (global policy trumps local consensus). In fact, this very proposal is a BLP violation. He most certainly DID NOT say that Azari should be "deported". How the hell did you put that in there??? You originally had the proposal as "expelled" [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&oldid=1031741163] which is still false but, I guess, a bit less of a BLP violating smear? (He didn't say she should be expelled) You then and went and MADE IT EVEN WORSE, even more of a BLP bio by changing it to "deported", something which is not even remotely close to reality. This is BLP-VIO par excellence and should be removed from the talk page. And this is putting aside that the entire thing is WP:UNDUE on account of WP:NOTNEWS.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 17:51, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
* On the "criticized by historians as an attempt at whitewashing Polish history" part.This too is a blatant and shameless abuse and misrepresentation of sources. Oko-press, as pointed out a million times is not reliable for BLP info. They specialize in smears on politicians they don't like. Still, the interview '''says nothing like this'''!!! Newsweek-Poland '''says nothing like this'''!!! Gazeta-Wyborcza '''says nothing like this'''!!! God, this is another over-the-top BLP violating smear that just illustrates the fundemental problems with these proposals.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 18:02, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
* No, per all of the above.  There's a germ of truth in here, and something can be written anew to get at it. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 03:47, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
* '''Yes, in some variation'''. The cited sources - [[:pl:Piotr Osęka|Piotr Osęka]] from the [[Polish Academy of Sciences]] (interviewed by OKO.Press), [[Jacek Leociak]] from the [[Polish Center for Holocaust Research]] (interview by GW), and [[Jan Hartman (philosopher)|Jan Hartman]] from the [[Jagiellonian University]] - are more than enough (note I've added a clarification to the references on the first two). I'm okay with redoing the paragraph, but it would've been helpful if some of these objections were raised earlier: "whitewash" was added when the article was translated from Polish on June 7th;[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1027282389&oldid=1026827527&diffmode=source] "expelled" was changed for stylistic reasons on July 5th;[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=prev&oldid=1032134909&diffmode=source] and the quote was restored at Piotrus's suggestion on July 8th;[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1032553360&oldid=1032553207][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1032563640&oldid=1032563269] but neither was flagged as a problem until now. [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 17:00, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
::One. More. Time. '''These sources do not say what you claim they say'''. How many times does this have to be said? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 01:10, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''Yes, also the part of Israeli ambassador''', as shown above, the Israeli newspapers have reported it, so I think it deserves a line of text. I don't know if the English term "Proposed" is correct, I let my mother tongue colleagues decide.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 09:59, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
::One. More. Time. The sources simply do not state what the proposed text claims. It’s. Just. False.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 19:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
:::This is from an article[https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/polish-senator-suggests-expelling-israeli-envoy-for-68-purge-remarks-1.5889384] from Haaretz (Perennial sources):"''A Polish senator for the ruling party said Friday he would not shake hands with Israel’s ambassador and that '''he favors her expulsion from Poland''' for saying anti-Semitism was on the rise there.''"--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 12:23, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
::::False interpretation of Zaryn's words, both by Ha'aretz and by proposed text. Here is what Zaryn actually said, citing Ha'aretz itself:
::::“If anyone today thinks ''to equate in any way the rule of the Law and Justice party to the persecution of Jews led by the communist party apparatus in 1968, or by the marshals'', then I certainly will not shake hands with such a person. If this is done by the ambassador of a foreign state, then maybe we have to ask this lady to leave this country,” he is quoted as saying."
:::::Which yet again demonstrates that you guys have limited comprehension skills. And Ha'aretz has limited knowledge of both Polish language and history. Zaryn actually said ''"że rządy Prawa i Sprawiedliwości w jakimkolwiek stopniu nawiązują do hucpy żydowskiej, prowadzonej przez aparat partyjny ‘68 roku, czyli przez [[Mieczysław Moczar|moczarowców]]"'', i.e., Zaryn protested what he saw an attempt to '''link PiS and Communist past'''. <s>Azari actually said ""</s>, well, hers is irrelevant. What is relevant is that twisting person's words is low decency no matter who does that and most certainly a BLP violation. (P.S. Not to say that one cannot comprehend the significance of this episode without looking at a broader context I will not say which. (But upon request I may give a brief overview in the talk page of a curious user)) [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 19:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::: Whereas the same interpretation of this sentence was given by [https://www.timesofisrael.com/polish-senator-calls-for-israeli-ambassadors-expulsion/ The Time Of Israel], [https://www.jpost.com/international/polish-senator-calls-for-israeli-ambassadors-expulsion-544743 The Jerusalem Post], [https://www.jta.org/2018/03/10/global/polish-senator-calls-israeli-ambassadors-expulsion Jewish Telegraphic Agency], [https://www.i24news.tv/fr/actu/international/europe/169606-180311-un-senateur-polonais-demande-l-expulsion-de-l-ambassadrice-israelienne i24 News]. It would appear that what Zaryn has suggested is an invitation to ask for the expulsion of the ambassador. If so, it seems important enough to me to report inside the article.--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 14:24, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::::: {{tq|''It would appear that what Zaryn has suggested is an invitation to ask for the expulsion of the ambassador.''}} What on earth is this supposed to mean now?  - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 14:53, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''No''' - per 3 monthly discussions above and below this RfC. (Please see the entire debate, not only this RfC) - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 11:22, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

====Discussion (RfC: Section 5)====
*
*
*

== Not how this works ==

Francois Robere, you know that you can't just start an RfC which basically says "Hey guys, can I violate BLP on this one article? Pretty please?" [[WP:BLP]] represents side wide consensus and trumps whatever local consensus is developed. You just can't put false information into an article about a living subject. You most certainly can't put that info in and then tack on citations on the end where the sources don't actually say anything like what the BLP violating text claims. This is 100% sanctionable and a pretty good justification for at least a topic ban.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 18:09, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
:Who wrote that RfC, anyway? [[Vicky Pollard]]? --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 18:25, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
::Lol. [[User:François Robere]], he didn't even sign it.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 18:42, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
<u>Note</u> - Editors interested in participation, please refer to the already '''three-month-long''' discussion that started here [[Talk:Jan_Żaryn/Archive_1#BLP_vio]] and review it thoroughly. Please also give notice to '''recurring''' cases of [[WP:BLP]]'s violations as well as [[WP:SOURCEMIS]] throughout the discussion and initial involvement of the '''globally banned user''' [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/VikingDrummer] using sock puppet account. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 18:59, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
:{{summoned by bot}} Yapperbot must really have it in for me. [[User:Jr8825|<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'; color:#6F0000;">Jr8825</span>]] • [[User Talk:Jr8825|<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'; color:#4682B4;">Talk</span>]] 23:19, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

<u>Note 2</u> It should also be noted that even some pieces will be accepted by the RFC, this cannot possibly be a ''carte blanche'' for keeping them intact with reverts with edit summaries of kind "this is against consensus".  [[User:Lembit Staan|Lembit Staan]] ([[User talk:Lembit Staan|talk]]) 19:55, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
* We started this discussion almost ''three months ago'' from a virtually empty article.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jan_%C5%BBaryn&oldid=1026827527] Some editors were throwing accusations from the get go,[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn/Archive_1#BLP_vio] but actually contributing to the text? Expanding it? Finding sources? Suggesting alternatives? Translating? Helping the [[WP:BITE|newbies]]? That's a whole different thing, and much harder to do than just fling accusations. Several futile arguments later I decided to start a pre-RfC a discussion,[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn#Resolving_disputes_one-by-one] and after weeks of soliciting input from editors, and repeatedly asking and getting the okay (eg. for section 1: [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1030582305&oldid=1030579588&diffmode=source][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1030889372&oldid=1030889104&diffmode=source][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_Żaryn&diff=1030716498&oldid=1030705646&diffmode=source][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_Żaryn&diff=1030784330&oldid=1030745223&diffmode=source][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_Żaryn&diff=1030837262&oldid=1030812119&diffmode=source][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_%C5%BBaryn&diff=1032726335&oldid=1032690407]) - I submitted the RfC. It's long and imperfect, but if anyone thinks they could do it better under these circumstances, they're more than welcome to try.
: As for suggestions of BLP vios - these would look more genuine if they weren't one-sided. Fervently defending the BLP, then ignoring an editor calling the BLP's critics "haters", "biased" and "unethical" without a shred of evidence?[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_Żaryn&diff=1031673952&oldid=1031657581&diffmode=source][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jan_Żaryn&diff=1033429124&oldid=1033423553&diffmode=source] [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 13:38, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
::I'm sorry but you're just trying to deflect from your own BLP violations. In addition to supporting false translations of an interview with the subject where his words were "translated" to say the OPPOSITE of what he said, how did you get that he demanded that the the Israeli ambassador be deported? There's absolutely no source which makes that claim.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 01:13, 22 July 2021 (UTC)