View source for Help talk:IPA/Thai

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==Untitled==
Should [a:] be given as the or an alt trans. for mid tone? It is frequently not marked. 

Should diphthongs end in [ə]? They don't quite reach [a], and that would have the benefit of making it clear that they're diphthongs. 

— [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 06:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

:First remark above is too garbled to understand. (Now I see: "the or an".) I would support unmarked midtone (I'm never in favour of alternatives in these pages). The IPA handbook uses [a] in diphthongs; The [[RTGS]] also uses a; let's stick to the familiar usage.
:Another question: should we list the long vowels (being simpler) first?
:&minus;[[User:Woodstone|Woodstone]] ([[User talk:Woodstone|talk]]) 07:01, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

::We have both marked and unmarked tones in the articles, so until that is cleaned up we should have both here too. But there are only a few articles. — [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 08:52, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Changed the a-final diphthongs to ə-final, following Lao. This is also more intuitive from German etc, and it's doubtful the Thai vowels ever actually reach [a]. — [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 20:05, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
:What's that based on? — [[User:Aeusoes1|Æµ§œš¹]] <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">[[User talk:aeusoes1|<small><sub>[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]</sub></small>]]</span> 20:21, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

::What I've seen is phonemic /a/ but phonetic [ə] (or [ɛ, o] before [j, w]). We have that description for Lao, and our vowel chart (from the Handbook?) has the target as [ɜ] rather than [a]. — [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 21:41, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
==IPA diacritic for Lao low falling tone==
Dearest all,<br>
Where is this diacritic: a̭ (below the a) from? Is it an official IPA symbol? If so, would you please give me some references? I have attempted to replace it with a᷆ as it is an IPA symbol for low falling tone, but my edits have been reverted. The other symbol that I have seen in transcription for the Lao low falling tone is ȁ (http://sealang.net/lao/dictionary.htm), but we do not see it for Lao here on Wikipedia. If a᷆ is not to be preferred (I assume it's a fairly new IPA symbol; so, we don't see it in linguistic articles on Lao outside of Wikipedia), then I think ȁ should instead be used because it is at least an IPA symbol. However, I will stop reverting edits now as I do not see a point in doing so anymore.<br>
Best,<br>
--[[User:Alifshinobi|Alif Silpachai]] ([[User talk:Alifshinobi|talk]]) 07:47, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

:The official IPA symbol is not used much because it's difficult to read; it also doesn't have the best font support (though maybe that's not the problem it used to be).  Usually when those newer diacritics are required, phoneticians just switch to Chao tone letters.  Since Thai tone is fairly simple, we went with diacritics, and this is the single case where the basic five don't suffice.  A subscript grave accent was used in the IPA until 1989; since it was never reassigned, it would still be understood to have that value.  That would avoid the legibility problem of the new symbol.  The double-grave for bottom tone might also work.  (It's not officially a falling-tone symbol, but it's not uncommon to apply symbols a bit loosely.)
:In checked syllables, we could simply transcribe it as low, since it's the only low tone.  — [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 08:08, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
::Thank you for your response. It would be difficult to write superscripted Chao letters here on Wikipedia like the way they do in linguistics articles. Personally, I think Chao letters should be used in phonetic transcriptions not phonemic. Alternatively, some linguists simply use numbers to indicate which tone it is: 1 = first tone, 2 = second tone etc. If the diacritic has been outdated for 24 years then I don't see a point in using it anymore. We should either use the new and proper diacritic (a᷆) or ȁ. How do I put this into a vote? --[[User:Alifshinobi|Alif Silpachai]] ([[User talk:Alifshinobi|talk]]) 08:35, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
==Northern Thai?==
We apparently have a separate [[Help:IPA for Northern Thai]] but this help page still seems to encode for Northern Thai. If we're already covering Lao and Thai together, I'm not sure if we would need a separate guide for Northern Thai. Thoughts? — [[User:Aeusoes1|Æµ§œš¹]] <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">[[User talk:aeusoes1|<small><sub>[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]</sub></small>]]</span> 22:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Now also an Isan Thai column was added. However there is no difference at all, except some omitted letters. This does not serve any purpose. The idea of this page is to show how each symbol is rendered in IPA. It does not matter if a variant of Thai does not use all symbols. I propose to revert to only one column for Thai. &minus;[[User:Woodstone|Woodstone]] ([[User talk:Woodstone|talk]]) 05:13, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

:Isan Thai is basically Lao written in Thai script, so there ''may'' be an argument for a separate column, but I think it can be handled with footnotes. The only real difference in Isan that's relevant to this page is that <ร> and <หร> are /l/ or /h/ (eg. รำ = /lám/; รัก = /hāk/) and <ญ> and <หญ> are /ɲ/ and ฉ, ช, ฌ (/tɕʰ/) aren't used. Tone contours are also different, but I think that's already handled sufficiently on this page. So it's a little more than "some omitted letters" since a few letters have different values, but that can easily be indicated with footnotes. Northern Thai, on the other hand, is perhaps different enough to warrant the current situation of being a separate IPA Help page.--[[User:WilliamThweatt|William Thweatt]] <sup>[[User talk:WilliamThweatt|Talk]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/WilliamThweatt|Contribs]]</sup> 23:18, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
::{{replyto|WilliamThweatt}} In the case of Northern Thai, do you mean differences in spelling? [[User:Mr KEBAB|Mr KEBAB]] ([[User talk:Mr KEBAB|talk]]) 09:30, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

==Correspondence between IPA tones and Thai/Lao tone marks (Mai ek/tho/etc.)==
This article gives the IPA tones present in Thai and Lao, but it fails to show which tone marks (called mai ek/eak, mai tho/toh, mai tri/dtree/ti, and mai chattawa/juttawa/catawa) correspond to such tones. According to [http://www.thaialphabet.net/thai-tone-marks/ this external link on Thai tone marks], mai eak is low2, mai toh is falling3, mai dtree is high4, and mai juttawa is rising5; no tone mark means mid tone, I assume. Probably the same applies to Lao. It would be useful to add those tone marks to the tones table in this article. Thank you. [[Special:Contributions/24.139.84.34|24.139.84.34]] ([[User talk:24.139.84.34|talk]]) 16:52, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
:It is much more complicated than that. The tone marks don't "correspond" to tones. The tone is an integral part of the spoken word, just as important as the consonants and vowels. In writing, the tone of a spoken word is indicated with combinations of high/mid/low class consonants, vowel length, final consonants and, sometimes, tone markers. The tone indicated by a particular spelling depends on all 4 of these factors, not just the tone marker. Furthermore, Thai tones are different than Lao tones. In fact, different dialects within both Thai and Lao have different tone contours and even totally different tones. Central Thai has 5 tones, Chiang Mai Thai has 6 tones, most Lao and Isan dialects have 6 tones, while some have 7 and Lao in Luang Prabang has 5. So, in central Thai, a ''mai ek'' with a low class consonant indicates a falling tone, but a ''mai ek'' with a mid class consonant indicates a low tone. In most dialects of Lao, a ''mai ek'' with either a low or mid class consonant indicates a mid level tone. There is no one-to-one correspondence between tone marker and spoken tone. See [[Thai language]], [[Thai alphabet#Tone]], [[Lao language#Indication of tones]] and [[Isan language#Vientiane Lao Dialect]] for more info and references.--[[User:WilliamThweatt|William Thweatt]] <sup>[[User talk:WilliamThweatt|Talk]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/WilliamThweatt|Contribs]]</sup> 20:33, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

== Move discussion in progress ==

There is a move discussion in progress on [[Help talk:IPA#Converting individual help pages for the various languages into subpages of Help:IPA |Help talk:IPA]] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Help talk:IPA crosspost --> —[[User:RMCD bot|RMCD bot]] 16:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

== Consonant positions ==

The page should, but doesn't, indicate the different symbols representing each consonant when it is in different positions (initial, medial, final); it currently shows the symbols representing the consonants when they are in initial positions only.

For example:
* The consonant "ข" is represented by [kʰ] when it begins a syllable (e.g. "<u>ขั</u>น" = [<u>kʰ</u>ǎn]), but is represented by [k] when it ends a syllable (e.g. "นั<u>ข</u>" = [ná<u>k</u>]).
* The consonant "ญ" is represented by [j] when it begins a syllable (e.g. "<u>ญี่</u>" = [<u>j</u>î:]), but is represented by [n] when it ends a syllable (e.g. "ธั<u>ญ</u>" = [tʰa<u>n</u>]).
* The consonant "ช" is represented by [tɕʰ] when it begins a syllable (e.g. "<u>ชุน</u>" = [<u>tɕʰ</u>un]), but is represented by [t] when it ends a syllable (e.g. "นุ<u>ช</u>" = [nú<u>t</u>]).

--[[User:Miwako Sato|Miwako Sato]] ([[User talk:Miwako Sato|talk]]) 19:44, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

:The page is meant to describe the sounds denoted by each Latin symbol. As a bonus it also lists all Thai letters that it can represent. There is no need to specify final positions separately, because the appropriate Latin symbols are chosen when in final position. So /k<sup>h</sup>/ is never used in final position. Or when ญ occurs in final position, /n/ is used to represent it. &minus;[[User:Woodstone|Woodstone]] ([[User talk:Woodstone|talk]]) 02:09, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

I think those references're from brahmi writing system. [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 15:01, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

== "อย" is this a consonant? ==

surprised to see "อย" as a consonant. 

I never heard of อ used to change the definition of a consonant. rather it is used as a vowel. 

Looks like an error to me. but my Thai is too rudimentary to have a definite view.....[[User:YechezkelZilber|Jazi  Zilber]] ([[User talk:YechezkelZilber|talk]]) 18:05, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

:Yes, the two letters together represent /j/. The อ in this case is called "อ นำ" and the digraph is used to make a mid-class /j/ consonant (ย by itself is low-class) in four common words: อย่า, อยาก, อย่าง, and อยู่ much the same as ห is used to make high-class digraph consonants out of low-class letters.--[[User:WilliamThweatt|William Thweatt]] <sup>[[User talk:WilliamThweatt|Talk]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/WilliamThweatt|Contribs]]</sup> 19:06, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
==Confusing footnotes==
The footnotes are largely incomprehensible. Under {{IPA|[h]}}, I'm told "For the Southern Thai, allophone with x." What does this mean? When are editors to transcribe with [h] and when with [x]? Why isn't [x] in the table? The same for {{IPA|[w]}}.  "For the Central Thai, replaced by ʋ in Capital accents. For the Southern Thai, replaced by ɴ." Are we encoding for Central, Capital, and Southern accents? If so, why not do like it's done at [[Help:IPA/Catalan]] or [[Help:IPA/Portuguese]]? This is a bit of a mess. — [[User:Aeusoes1|Æµ§œš¹]] <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">[[User talk:aeusoes1|<small><sub>[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]</sub></small>]]</span> 22:04, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
:It looks like some editors mistake this page for an explanation of Thai phonology, including all dialectic variants. Just as we do for English, one way of diaphonetic transcription is intended, and automatic phonetic variations are not indicated. Much of info from earlier attempts has already been moved to the main namespace. Here we should go back to just one (the official) dialect.&minus;[[User:Woodstone|Woodstone]] ([[User talk:Woodstone|talk]]) 14:37, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

== Purpose of page ==

Once again there is creep in this page to incorporate a host of Thai dialects. This page is in help-space. It is not meant as a guide to distinctions between Thai dialects. The purpose is to show a transcription for use in WP articles to represent Thai words. As such it should give simply one sign for each phoneme. Just like in the comparable English page, each sign is diaphonemic and is derived from the main dialect(s). So all doublings in the table should be removed. In my opinion  also the footnotes should go, because they only serve to create confusion. The information on Thai dialects might find a place in article-space. &minus;[[User:Woodstone|Woodstone]] ([[User talk:Woodstone|talk]])

:This page should be reverted back to the version where only one variety is explained. There are not even any sources cited for the clear-cut definition of these dialects, and if we are to list every variants possible for each phoneme, I'm afraid we have to add [θ] for /s/, [x] and [kx] for /kh/, etc., as well. --[[User:Potapt|Potapt]] ([[User talk:Potapt|talk]]) 00:42, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Thai lanna & lao language, can hear ⟨x⟩ sound. But central thai and southern thai are not. [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 05:31, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Ps, Thai lanna is Kham keuang language. [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 05:32, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

::I wasn't talking about Northern Thai/Kham Mueang though. --[[User:Potapt|Potapt]] ([[User talk:Potapt|talk]]) 14:40, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

== Please watch my talk in Help:IPA/Lao ==

See something on my talk. [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 09:25, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/942998364 [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 09:28, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

== About vowel "◌ิว" ==

I think it should not use the writing "io", because it's sound like "i(a)o" in chinese.

These are better writing choices
1. iu
2. ew
3. iew [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 10:39, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

::In the romanization system established by the Royal Institute of Thailand, the spelling <io> is used to represent the sound [iw]. It isn't intended to reflect the Chinese pronunciation. --[[User:Potapt|Potapt]] ([[User talk:Potapt|talk]]) 14:38, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes! but you should becareful. [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 13:58, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
::About what? --[[User:Potapt|Potapt]] ([[User talk:Potapt|talk]]) 20:46, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Writing of thai. [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 07:56, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
::Why? Care to elaborate? --[[User:Potapt|Potapt]] ([[User talk:Potapt|talk]]) 13:58, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
:::I believe the OP is concerned (and rightly so) "io" is a terrible way to represent –ิว in English. The "o" is misleading (there is no sound even close to standard English "o" in this diphthong) and has the potential to confuse the pronunciation with เ–ียว (the "Chinese" sound referred to above). A much better alternative would be "iu" or "iw". In fact, prior to 1999, RTGS used "iu". However, I would point the OP to our [[Royal Thai General System of Transcription]] article and note that, despite the name, the Thai government system is more of a [[transliteration]] (letter-for-letter) and not meant to be a phonetic [[transcription]]. See the [http://www.royin.go.th/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/416_2157.pdf Thai language Royal Government publication here]. It was changed so that treatment of final "ว" is consistent and always transliterated as "o".--[[User:WilliamThweatt|William Thweatt]] <sup>[[User talk:WilliamThweatt|Talk]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/WilliamThweatt|Contribs]]</sup> 19:09, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! William for explain it. I'm very concern, and it have to becareful. [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 13:34, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

== Add some approximations ==

"ก" can hear a sound like "k" in "sky", and the "ค" group can hear a sound like "k" in "key". [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 16:10, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
:We already have English approximations for those sounds, ''scan'' and ''can'', respectively. Adding additional examples is an unnecessary redundancy. — [[User:Aeusoes1|Æµ§œš¹]] <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">[[User talk:aeusoes1|<small><sub>[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]</sub></small>]]</span>

Why do those examples are unnecessary? [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 02:37, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

So I think the alphabet "ก" & "ค" group're with "k" than "c". And I add those examples, "ก" can hear a sound like "k" in "sky", and the "ค" group can hear a sound like "k" in "key" or "kine". [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 03:01, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

*'re present with [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 03:01, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

(Again!)
So I think the alphabet "ก" & "ค" group're present with "k" than "c". And I add those examples, "ก" can hear a sound like "k" in "sky", and the "ค" group can hear a sound like "k" in "key" or "kine". [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 03:02, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

== Note for "ฑ" ==

"ฑ" this alphabet/letter, by an initial consonant is have 2 sounds. 1) “[tʰ]” when it appear in the live syllables. 2) “[d]” when it appear in the dead syllables.

You have to note this, because it's important. [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 06:48, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

:I've replied at [[Talk:Thai script#About the alphabet/letter "ฑ"]]. --[[User:Paul 012|Paul_012]] ([[User talk:Paul 012|talk]]) 15:51, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

:Thanks! [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 01:24, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

== Finding some English approximation for “[ɯa]”. ==

If you need some English approximation, I have choices for you.
-Estonian: õa
-Turkish: ıa [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 12:53, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
:Those aren't English. — [[User:Aeusoes1|Æµ§œš¹]] <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">[[User talk:aeusoes1|<small><sub>[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]</sub></small>]]</span> 14:18, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

::[[User:Aeusoes1|Æµ§œš¹]] Why can't we type it? [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 06:04, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Okay! I find some English approximation for “[ɯa]”, now. It's "'''to a''' (weak sound)". [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 16:35, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I search it on Cambrid English dictionary.  [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 16:37, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

[[User:Aeusoes1|Æµ§œš¹]] I see this link https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engrish and don't forget to press/click it.
[[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]])  <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 09:18, 14 January 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:That seems like an adequate approximation, but I don't think we need to say "weak sound." I don't think it will be clear to readers what that means. I don't even know what it means. — [[User:Aeusoes1|Æµ§œš¹]] <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">[[User talk:aeusoes1|<small><sub>[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]</sub></small>]]</span> 16:02, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

:: Ah! for example: Japanese english "you“[ju:]”", they say "ユー“[jɯ:]”". [[User:Juidzi|Juidzi]] ([[User talk:Juidzi|talk]]) 11:04, 15 January 2022 (UTC)