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== RFC: People Make Games ==
{{closed rfc top
| status = 
| result = There is '''consensus that People Make Games is generally reliable for the topic of video games''', although care should be taken if using the source for [[WP:BLP]]-related information due to concerns that they have no clear editorial policy, and they are a [[WP:EXPERTSPS]]. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 13:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
}}




Which of the following best describes [[People Make Games]]'s [https://www.youtube.com/@PeopleMakeGames videos] in the area of video games? 

* Option 1: Generally reliable
* Option 2: Additional considerations apply
* Option 3: Generally unreliable
* Option 4: Deprecate

[[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 20:16, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Survey (PMG) ===

* '''Option 1''' [[People Make Games]] is reliable for video game journalism. They've been cited several times by multiple sources we consider reliable (including [https://www.pcgamer.com/two-reports-paint-a-troubling-picture-of-workplace-abuses-at-acclaimed-indie-studios/ PC Gamer], [https://www.eurogamer.net/roblox-exploiting-young-game-developers-new-investigation-reports Eurogamer], [https://www.polygon.com/22799362/roblox-sues-banned-cybermob-leader-for-terrorizing-the-platform-its-developers Polygon], [https://www.wired.com/story/on-roblox-kids-learn-its-hard-to-earn-money-making-games/ Wired], and even the [https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2022/06/07/people-make-games-roblox-indie-devs/ Washington Post] somehow), and all their contributors are professional video game journalists. You can even see in the WaPo article (and other places) that they follow basic journalistic standards like asking their subjects for comment before publishing a story. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 20:16, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 1''' They seem legit, given that other scrupulously reliable sources treat them as reliable.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 12:53, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 1''' for video-games journalism. They're a solid outlet, have broken at least one major story in that area, and are treated as reliable by other sources. <span style="color:green">[[User:ThadeusOfNazereth|ThadeusOfNazereth]](he/him)<sup>[[User talk:ThadeusOfNazereth|Talk to Me!]]</sup></span> 20:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 1''' and I'm glad that people aren't dismissing them automatically because they're on YouTube. [[User talk:Casualdejekyll|<span style="color:#E6007A">casualdejekyll</span>]] 12:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
*:So am I! Such a nice change of pace from normal, especially for those of us who remember how difficult it was to get consensus on Anthony Fantano's status as a "music critic." <span style="color:green">[[User:ThadeusOfNazereth|ThadeusOfNazereth]](he/him)<sup>[[User talk:ThadeusOfNazereth|Talk to Me!]]</sup></span> 18:29, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2''' as it appears to be a self-published source, but could be used with attribution as [[WP:EXPERTSPS]]. The authors are the publishers; there doesn't seem to be any fact checkers, editors, masthead, ethics policies, separation of news from opinion, etc. Just being cited alone doesn't make something an RS; this one is just not professional journalism, it's a well-respected blog, but it should be used only with attribution per EXPERTSPS. It's not like [[CNET]] or other professional publications. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 18:37, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
*:Not that I find too much fault with your logic, but it's a little funny that CNET is the example you give given, well, the discussion basically directly below this one :) <span style="color:green">[[User:ThadeusOfNazereth|ThadeusOfNazereth]](he/him)<sup>[[User talk:ThadeusOfNazereth|Talk to Me!]]</sup></span> 04:06, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
*::Lol, true, that was the first tech publication that came to mind, but my mind is outdated ;-) [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 16:06, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
*:I think it's important to note that while PMG is a small organization and doesn't have all those roles ''as separate people'', it clearly does still have those roles. Its employees are all professional video games journalists and do clearly bring journalistic ethics with them in their role as PMG. So for instance, they do [https://www.gamespot.com/articles/new-report-claims-valves-structure-and-work-culture-is-hostile-to-diversity/1100-6510857/ request comment from their subjects] (implying some sort of ethics policy and also some sort of fact checking procedure), they do separate news from opinion (because they have no opinion section), they pretty clearly are treated as journalists by the industry (as shown by the many sources citing them, but also it's reasonably clear in the Nuclear Gandhi video that they are treated as journalists by games companies as well).
*:An important thing to note here is that they're a journalism collective, somewhat like [[Bellingcat]]. They're not self-published because no individual journalist gets to publish their reporting alone: PMG as a whole organization is the publisher while the individual reporter is the author. If a story didn't pan out, it wouldn't get animated by their animator (and presumably the other members of the PMG team would also object to releasing it). [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 17:32, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
*::I disagree that having no opinion section means that they separate fact an opinion. That generally means the opposite, that fact and opinion share the same space in their content. This also means that use of People Make Games as a source should probably be attributed. [[User:Thebiguglyalien|Thebiguglyalien]] ([[User talk:Thebiguglyalien|talk]]) 18:37, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
*::I'd add: Having those roles ''as separate people'' is kind of the whole point of having separation between reporters and editors. A group blog is a group blog, and ''sometimes acting ethically'' (e.g. requesting comment from their subjects) is not a substitute for not having an ethics policy. Being cited is not the same thing as "treated as journalists", and being treated as a journalist is not a substitute for being a journalist. Point-by-point, your response concedes that they do not meet any of the usual criteria for RS journalism (no separation of reporters and editors, no public written ethics policy, no separate fact checkers, no separate opinion section, no professional/credentialed journalists). [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 17:44, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 1''' Washington Post uses them, so I'd support their reliability based on that. I've not seen anything to suggest otherwise. [[User:Oaktree b|Oaktree b]] ([[User talk:Oaktree b|talk]]) 17:04, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
*:Not sure if I would use that as a reason to have it as option 1. If anyone it would be a reason to have Washington Post as option 2 or 3 in my view. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 20:38, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
* '''Option 2''' for use in the area of videogames. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 20:36, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
* '''Oppose Option 4''' and this "deprecation" system. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 20:39, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
*<s>Strong option 1</s> '''Option 2''' Reliable for statements of fact in their area of expertise, however, extra caution should be advised for BLP material. Echoing others, I'm quite pleased at the open-mindedness of the comments. [[WP:RSP]] fundamentally exists to keep non-factual material out of our articles, but there's zero reason to be rigid about how we define what an RS can be. Thanks for offering this up for discussion, and I hope we see more of these kinds of outlets. [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 23:06, 8 February 2023 (UTC)<small><ins>; edited to add caution about BLP material; hadn't thought of that when writing my comment, and I agree that it's a valid concern 12:58, 17 February 2023 (UTC)</ins></small>
*'''Option 2'''. [[WP:SPS]] with no indication of a published editorial policy or editorial review. This would make it Option 3, but acknowledgement in major outlets should be sufficient for an exception. [[User:Thebiguglyalien|Thebiguglyalien]] ([[User talk:Thebiguglyalien|talk]]) 18:35, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2'''. In agreement with Thebiguglyalien [[User:SolVerdict|SolVerdict]] ([[User talk:SolVerdict|talk]]) 01:07, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
:: <small>— [[User:SolVerdict|SolVerdict]] ([[User talk:SolVerdict|talk]]&#32;• [[Special:Contributions/SolVerdict|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small>. 
:: Note that SolVerdict has 0 edits outside this noticeboard. [[User:Soni|Soni]] ([[User talk:Soni|talk]])  11:34, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2''', I think they're fine to use within their area of expertise (games and game culture) but I would advise against using them alone for BLP info without attribution. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 16:59, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2'''; Their citations in numerous reliable sources (there's a lot more if you [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22People%20Make%20Games%22&tbm=nws search for them in Google News]) demonstrate that they should be reliable for games and related topics (our own sources certainly seem to think so), but with it being unclear whether they're an expert self-published source or something closer to a traditional news organisation, I would echo the caution around BLP matters. [[User:twotwos|<span style="color: #005418">twotwos</span>]] ([[User talk:twotwos|<span>talk</span>]]) 09:55, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

=== Discussion (PMG) ===

* As we describe on its page, [[Nuclear Gandhi]] is an urban legend that Gandhi in the original Civilization was particularly likely to nuke people because of a bug. However, it's come out recently that in fact such a bug did not exist, nor was Gandhi even particularly likely to use nukes, and that this was purely an urban legend the entire time. On the page, we cite [https://dtf.ru/games/210957-istoriya-poyavleniya-mifa-o-yadernom-gandi-po-versii-samogo-sida-meyera this dodgy Russian-language source] ([https://dtf-ru.translate.goog/games/210957-istoriya-poyavleniya-mifa-o-yadernom-gandi-po-versii-samogo-sida-meyera?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp translation]) for several important claims about it.
: However, the source we cite openly says it got this info from the [[People Make Games]] YouTube channel, in particular [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur3SdgkW8W4 this video], which originally broke the story. And by all appearances this video is a very reliable source. [[People Make Games]] is staffed by professional video game journalists, including the one who broke this particular story, they've been cited by other sources we consider reliable (like [https://www.pcgamer.com/two-reports-paint-a-troubling-picture-of-workplace-abuses-at-acclaimed-indie-studios/ PC Gamer], [https://www.eurogamer.net/roblox-exploiting-young-game-developers-new-investigation-reports Eurogamer], [https://www.polygon.com/22799362/roblox-sues-banned-cybermob-leader-for-terrorizing-the-platform-its-developers Polygon], [https://www.wired.com/story/on-roblox-kids-learn-its-hard-to-earn-money-making-games/ Wired], and even the [https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2022/06/07/people-make-games-roblox-indie-devs/ Washington Post] somehow) and the video itself contains multiple interviews with the developers themselves saying no such bug exists. In my opinion, PMG is about equal in reliability to [[Bellingcat]] for the specific area of video games, and for basically the same reasons.
: Yet not only do we not cite the video here, we don't cite People Make Games anywhere, about anything, as far as I can tell. Even for stories that they broke, we always cite someone else just repeating what they said. I believe this is primarily because they publish in video format, on YouTube, rather than in text, and we don't consider "YouTube" reliable. I think this is a silly bias against video content that we'd never allow if PMG was a news channel, and I'm aiming with this RfC to establish that just because PMG publishes its investigations on YouTube, that doesn't mean they're unreliable. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 20:16, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
:: While I enjoy watching PMG, they are arguably a self-published source, and thus shouldn't be used as a directly cited source for non-self BLP claims, eg [https://www.eurogamer.net/emotional-abuse-at-indie-studios-undermines-the-importance-of-auteurs their allegations of abusive behaviour by indie developers]. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 20:22, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
:::[[Bellingcat]] is also arguably a self-published source, yet they're green on [[WP:RSP]], and have absolutely been used for BLP claims before (e.g. they named several Russian intelligence officials involved in the [[Skripal poisoning]]). That's why I brought them up, to prove that we don't have a general policy against [[citizen journalism]] even in BLPs.
:::To be clear, I believe the actual situation in both these cases is that PMG/Bellingcat is the publisher and the particular journalist breaking the story is the author, making neither of them [[WP:SPS]]. (This is the same as the situation with, say, the NYT; if we said that every employee of an organization is that organization no source would be reliable.) One of the key distinctions between self-published and independent sources is that independent sources have organizational editorial standards, which both PMG and Bellingcat clearly do. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 20:43, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
::::Per Loki, what makes a self-published source self-published is the lack of a layer of editorial control between the writer and the publication of the information itself.  People Make Games is not self-published; they appear to have an editorial staff and vet their stories as well as any other journalism organization.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 12:56, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
::::: People Make Games is  a YouTube channel run by 3 people who all collaborate together, far less than the number of journalists working on Bellingcat, so I don't possibly see how it could satisfy having {{tq|a layer of editorial control between the writer and the publication of the information itself}}. Most major scoops by PMG have been covered by regular video game journalism websites, so this is really moot anyway. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 18:19, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::But the fact that they keep getting covered by regular video game journalism websites shows that other video game journalists consider them reliable, even despite their small size. And just because other sources frequently cover their work doesn't mean that we don't need to mark them reliable. So for instance, they did an interview with the creators of [[Blaseball]] that we ought to be able to quote from, even though to my knowledge it hasn't been cited elsewhere. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 02:51, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Video game websites cover a lot of shit, frequently including stuff like Twitter posts.--[[User:Eldomtom2|Eldomtom2]] ([[User talk:Eldomtom2|talk]]) 18:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
*'''Question''' Do they have a corrections policy? Do the follow it? [[User:Adoring nanny|Adoring nanny]] ([[User talk:Adoring nanny|talk]]) 21:08, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
*:They don't have a website outside of YouTube and Patreon, so, as far as I can tell, not a published one. However, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My9U413G3hI they have responded to criticism of their work before at length]. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 22:42, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' Not sure why we need this source when Sid Meier himself has said this is a myth. {{tq|But it's not the countless callbacks and references that make the nuclear Gandhi story so funny to me. It's the fact that none of it is true. The overflow error never happened at all.}} (''Sid Meier's Memoir!: A Life in Computer Games'' p. 262) Although it did exist as an Easter Egg in Civ V. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 18:14, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
*:It's not just [[Nuclear Gandhi]] I'm talking about here, they've broken other scoops in the past as well. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 02:46, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
*I don’t know this outlet well enough to opine on general reliability, but I would ''oppose depreciation''.  That is (and should be) saved for extremely rare cases. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 21:42, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
*:To be clear, I absolutely wouldn't like them to be depreciated, I'm just following the standard format. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 22:17, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' – I've contacted Chris Bratt of ''People Makes Games'' to inquire about editorial policies. [[User:DecafPotato|DecafPotato]] ([[User talk:DecafPotato|talk]]) 01:38, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
*:That's a good idea. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 22:14, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
{{closed rfc bottom}}

== More on the reliability of BtVA ==

The Anime and Manga Wikiproject [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga/Online reliable sources|does not consider Behind the Voice Actors to be a reliable source]]. Can the perennial sources list stop calling it reliable now? [[User:Eldomtom2|Eldomtom2]] ([[User talk:Eldomtom2|talk]]) 15:20, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
:Do you have a link to the discussion where the reliability was discussed?  The most recent such discussion here, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_370#RfC:_Behind_the_Voice_Actors From March, 2022] concluded that it was reliable.  While such discussions don't have to happen here; they need to happen ''somewhere'' and if there is a new consensus, we all need to see what discussion came to a new consensus.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 15:48, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
::Near as I can tell, the discussion is in [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga/Online reliable sources/Archive 1]] and consists of two users. It's from more then a decade ago and as mentioned has only two participants, including the person who asked if it's a RS. --[[User:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|(loopback)]] [[User_talk:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|ping]]/[[Special:Contributions/127(point)0(point)0(point)1|whereis]] 16:10, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
:::Per [[WP:LOCALCONSENSUS]] and also per [[WP:TIMETRAVELISN'TPOSSIBLEASFARASWEKNOW]], an older discussion in a less-broadly-attended corner of Wikipedia cannot override an existing consensus which was ''established later''.  If Eldomtom2 wants to start a new discussion over the reliability of the website in question, they can feel free to do so, but unless and until someone does that, it appears the March 2022 discussion is the prevailing one.--[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 16:40, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
::::The second one is a red link. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 20:40, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::It's a blue link if you're browsing from before 2015. After The Fracture happened and Dr. Nixon broke the timeline with her first trip we deleted it. When there's a timeline collision we sometimes get people from 2008 linking to it when we try to warn them about the snakes. --[[User:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|(loopback)]] [[User_talk:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|ping]]/[[Special:Contributions/127(point)0(point)0(point)1|whereis]] 21:26, 2 February 2037 (UTC)
::::::Don't tell people about the snakes. It destabilizes the time loop and every time it happens we have to revdel the  entire 2040s. '''[[User:JPxG|jp]]'''×'''[[User talk:JPxG|g]]''' 10:54, 9 April 2051 (UTC)
:::::It won't be if you go back in time and fix it.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 13:31, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
::::I have made multiple attempts at starting discussions here and they have failed to receive attention.--[[User:Eldomtom2|Eldomtom2]] ([[User talk:Eldomtom2|talk]]) 21:47, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that there was a well attended RfC for it here less then a year ago. It seems the community here largely doesn't feel like it needs to be reopened at this time. Is there something that's changed about the source in the last year, or do you just disagree with the conclusion? Because the former may catch more discussion but the latter is likely to elicit crickets if editors don't feel anything is substantially different to when we did this before. --[[User:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|(loopback)]] [[User_talk:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|ping]]/[[Special:Contributions/127(point)0(point)0(point)1|whereis]] 06:42, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::I disagree with the conclusion. It was waved through with little investigation.--[[User:Eldomtom2|Eldomtom2]] ([[User talk:Eldomtom2|talk]]) 22:34, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I'm sorry, are we looking at the same RfC? I would like to draw your attention specifically to Compassionate727's fairly exhaustive dive into their structure and editorial methods. That is exactly the the type of examination we expect around here, and it did seem to hold quite a bit of weight with participants. If you were talking about a different RfC that's understandable, but if you meant the March 2022 one and think there was 'little investigation' then I don't think you are quite on the level. --[[User:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|(loopback)]] [[User_talk:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|ping]]/[[Special:Contributions/127(point)0(point)0(point)1|whereis]] 06:02, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::::If you think it was an "exhaustive dive" you can think that, but I don't think "they say they have some sort of standards (that they won't clarify) that they apply to user submissions" is good enough to say something is a reliable source.--[[User:Eldomtom2|Eldomtom2]] ([[User talk:Eldomtom2|talk]]) 20:49, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
:Just want to point out that WP Anime does consider Behind the Voice Actors to be reliable in most circumstances. You would see this if you actually read the entry at [[WP:ANIME/ORS#Situational]]. [[User:Link20XX|Link20XX]] ([[User talk:Link20XX|talk]]) 00:30, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
::It actually says "Roles and lists that are not check-marked (covered by a screenshot), despite being listed under that actor, cannot be used", which means that BtVA is unreliable, since the only thing it is considered reliable for is providing screenshots of the primary source that is a show's credits.--[[User:Eldomtom2|Eldomtom2]] ([[User talk:Eldomtom2|talk]]) 11:25, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

== StatMuse ==

StatMuse is the eponymous interactive AI ([[Chatbot]]) of the [[StatMuse]] company (basically a [[ChatGPT]] with a sports focus). Is its use on articles such as [[List of National Football League players with multiple 1,000-yard receiving seasons]] appropriate? It appears that someone asked the AI "Which Wide Receiver Has The Most 1000 Yard Receiving Seasons" and we're now using that answer as the only source on the article. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 04:01, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

:Not a [[WP:RS]]... Probably needs to be formally deprecated or blacklisted. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 06:33, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
:"lmao" is all I'll say about that last sentence. The things we see! [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 19:11, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
:I would also note that the details in the table doesn't even match the reference. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 20:39, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
::Which may be because the source is dynamically generated and therefore can be expected to keep changing. Another reason to avoid these sites. [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 21:02, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
:::Definitely, a nonstable source can not be verified. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 21:15, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
::Is there any copyright concern over republishing tables generated by StatMuse, or would they be to generic as they are just statistics? -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 21:17, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

=== RfC ===
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 22:01, 16 March 2023 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1679004081}}
{{rfc|media|rfcid=9C393EC}}

Which of the following best describes the [[StatMuse]] chatbot?

* Option 1: Generally reliable
* Option 2: Additional considerations apply
* Option 3: Generally unreliable
* Option 4: Deprecate

[[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 21:06, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

:Not sure RFCs on individual chatbots are the right approach here. [[WP:LLM]] (a draft) declares them all unreliable in one fell swoop, which seems more appropriate, since I doubt there are any specifics that would make one chatbot more reliable than another. [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 21:11, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
::I'm seeing use on well over 500 pages, to me that means there really does have to be a formal centralized discussion. If it was under 100 I would do it myself but I'm just not comfortable being *that* bold. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 21:15, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
:::A search "only" yielded 211 pages for me, hence my reply. But yes, in that case, '''Deprecate''' or at the least GUNREL. [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 21:19, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
::::Did you add in the variants like "stat muse"? Search on wiki is not my strong suit. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 21:22, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::I searched <code><nowiki>insource:"url=https://www.statmuse.com"</nowiki></code> so it only picks up the URL parameter of {{tl|cite web}}. Otherwise you get articles like [[Terry Crews]] that contain the words "stat" and "muse" but no citation to that site.
:::::Can also do that in PetScan, "Other Sources" tab, "Search query" field, and it gives a nice list. [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 21:30, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::Ok so the cleanest search I can find is insource:"www.statmuse.com" which returns two eighty something without any apparent errors. The more specific search misses lazy cites like the one at [[Tom Van Arsdale]]. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 21:39, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
:If it's necessary to have the RFC and not just declare all such sources unusable for referencing purposes, then '''Deprecate'''. The other problem these seem to raise is of OR, take [https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-triple-double-by-a-player-with-0-missed-field-goals-and-no-missed-free-throws this] for example. It's currently in use and uses a complex set of criteria, those criteria are being set by the editor. No other sources is publishing the specific details, it brings to mind a discussion above were an editor has written code to prove a particular algorithm. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 21:53, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
::I think the OR question is inherent in the category of incredibly niche lists and the Chatbots just allow it to be smoother, see [[List of college football coaches with 150 NCAA Division I FCS wins]] for example. If we check the edit history we find that it was not made because there was coverage of the topic in WP:RS or anything else which would indicate notability but because they "Decided to create a list I've wanted to add for a couple of years." and worked backwards from there... Thats a problem whether you piece it together from databases yourself or use a chatbot to piece it together. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 22:02, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
:::At least on those cases someone has actually published the statistics, I wouldn't count them towards notability though. In this case the editor is creating the reference to meet the content they want to add, that's extremely problematic. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 22:07, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
::::Yeah but that "someone" is primarily a defunct SPS now available only in archive form, example [https://web.archive.org/web/20170103165809/http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2290]. Almost everything down this hole is problematic, chatbots are just the new lowest level of hell. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 22:20, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
::Those chatbot prompts are particularly deadly. AI chatbots give you whatever answer you're looking for. I just asked ChatGPT which US President had a chihuahua. It said "none". I told it: "I thought Eisenhower had one." And it said: {{tq|You are correct! President Dwight D. Eisenhower did have a Chihuahua named Heidi. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.}} But all Eisenhower had was a [[Weimaraner]]. Chatbots are like a child being asked leading questions by a policeman.
::Any super-specific question, like the one you link, is extremely like to lead to confabulation. How long until one of these bots claims it was [[Satanic_panic#Children's_allegations|abused by Satanists]]? [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 22:44, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
:It's clear to me that this discussion is based on my actions. I did not start the article, but I noticed the page was inaccurate and I figured that StatMuse was better than no source. I'm not going to argue one way or another for StatMuse but I do have a couple of questions. What makes this site a "chatbot"? It's a [https://www.statmuse.com/company/about self-proclaimed artificial intelligence company], but it doesn't communicate with you. It fetches information from a sports database based on queries that you enter. Also, why was this listed [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Media, the arts, and architecture|Media, the arts, and architecture]] instead of [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Society, sports, and culture|Society, sports, and culture]]? I think it's important that the sports group be involved in the discussion. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 15:22, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::The problem is the "artificial intelligence" part, many instances of which have been shown to make up facts as a way to answer questions. If this was just a way of cross referencing details in a database it wouldn't be so probelmatic. StatMuse are obviously not going to say exactly how their chatbot works, so caution is required. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 15:36, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
:::I see what you're getting at regarding the AI part. Though I will say again, I don't believe this fits the definition of a [[chatbot]]. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 17:43, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::::It interprets your language via AI, builds what it's believes you mean into a database search, and returns I'm the results back via AI into language. It's a chatbot. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 17:51, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::I could understand not classifying StatMuse as a reliable source, but I'm hung up on the phrasing of a chatbot here. I view it as a searchable database whereas I guess I look at a chatbot as something that's trying to carry on a conversation. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 18:06, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::A chatbot is defined by it's interaction with users using natural language, which is what is happening here. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 18:32, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::::There's also the question of OR / undue. If no-one else has published these statistics before you ask the question then you are creating a reference to support the article text, and that sounds extremely problematic. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 17:53, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::I did have concerns about OR when using StatMuse as a reference, but I believed that it was better than nothing (again, I didn't create the article, just was trying to improve it). I can absolutely understand how this could be problematic. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 18:06, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::It's is definitely better to have nothing that to have text supported by an unreliable source. Instead of adding OR, the text should be removed if it can't be supported by a previously published reliable source. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 18:30, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::::You're right, and I'm going to go ahead and blame the lingering brain fog I have from COVID. I should have nominated that article for deletion when I stumbled upon it instead of trying to salvage it. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 18:56, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::::There's nothing negative about trying to save an article. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 19:02, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::You ask it a question in natural language (in this example "which player has the most 1000 yard receiving seasons"), it provides an answer in natural language (in this case "Jerry Rice played the most seasons with 1,000+ receiving yards, with 14 seasons."). How is that not communicating with you? [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 17:11, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
:::[[Chatbot]] mentions communication back and forth, but StatMuse does not converse with you. It fetches information based on a query, much like a search engine does. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 17:43, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
:::: It replies "Jerry Rice played the most seasons with 1,000+ receiving yards, with 14 seasons." in response to your question (the very definition of back and forth) isn't communication what is it? [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 17:59, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::I guess I'm hung up on the conversational aspect of it. For the query ([https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/which-player-has-the-most-1000-yard-receiving-seasons found here]) it doesn't just list Jerry Rice, as your comment might imply. It brings up a list and creates a table out of them. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 18:06, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::You ask it a question in natural language, it answers in natural language (in addition to other things as you said), you and the chatbot just had a conversation. It doesn't have to be lengthy to be a conversation, not all chatbots are set up like that. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 18:11, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::I think this is one I'll need to mull over and let bounce around in my head for a bit. On the one hand, it's an ask and answer back and forth (in a way via searching). On the other hand, it adds a lot of "extras" which is likely why I'm having a tough time looking at is as a chatbot. Never the less, I do understand why you're referring to is as such after this back and forth and my view of what is and isn't a chatbot may change after giving some more thought. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 18:26, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::: Its not a very advanced one, its much more 2017 than 2023 but thats what it is. Note that is also meant to be used with voice not text, one of the key features is that it talks to you in the voice of various NFL player. In the intended use case it is much more conversational. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 18:36, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Wow, I wasn't aware of that feature. Guess I may have been using it in a way that's not the norm. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 18:46, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Based on your replies, it seems that StatMuse ought to be compared to Google’s Answer Box than to ChatGPT. The Google Answer Box takes info from one of the search results, and displays it in natural language (and is sometimes inaccurate, taken from an inaccurate site).
:::::::The key question, therefore, is: is StatMuse’s database accurate? What’s their [[WP:UBO]]? [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 21:54, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
:'''Option 2: Additional considerations apply''' Treat them as a [[WP:PRIMARYSOURCE]]. If a stat was important enough, then it generally should have been mentioned by [[WP:SECONDARYSOURCE]]s.  We don't want to provide [[WP:UNDUE]] weight to random stats.—[[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] ([[User talk:Bagumba|talk]]) 15:25, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
:'''Option 4: Deprecate''' It's not transparent where they get their information from. Human-made sources have at least the advantage that humans normally shy away from publishing things that others might see as ridiculous. [[User:Rsk6400|Rsk6400]] ([[User talk:Rsk6400|talk]]) 17:43, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::[https://www.statmuse.com/product/data Here] it states they get information from a company named SportRadar. On the company's website it shows various partners, including several major sports leagues (such as NBA, NHL, MLB). [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 17:50, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::: Just FYI [[Sportradar]] is primarily a service provider to the gambling industry, they're not generally what we would consider a WP:RS. This makes the question of where the data actually comes from murkier, not clearer. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 18:03, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
::::I agree that it's murky since we aren't able to audit the information ourselves. I do think we can infer that the information provided by Sportradar is ''likely'' accurate given its use in the gambling industry (FanDuel & DraftKings). Though I understand that inference may not be enough to establish reliability. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 18:15, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''4: Deprecate'''. For the obvious reasons of reliability, accuracy, and OR. [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 20:02, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': Given that the website is primarily based around sports statistics, I still believe this should be listed at [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Society, sports, and culture|Society, sports, and culture]] instead of [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Media, the arts, and architecture|Media, the arts, and architecture]]. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 17:59, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2''' per Bagumba. I'm generally sceptical of LLMs because of their tendency to fabricate facts or pull from unreliable sources. However, this use case with a closed data source seems fairly low risk and more akin to the search/analysis tools that are already built into many databases. This is a primary source that doesn't contribute to notability or weight. It might be useful for citing standard statistics for infoboxes etc (although surely there are better sources for these), but we certainly shouldn't be using it to add trivia like [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Patrick_Mahomes&diff=prev&oldid=1136751208&diffmode=source this] or [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Shaquille_O%27Neal&diff=prev&oldid=1057045977&diffmode=source this]. I'm struggling to think of a use case where there aren't better sources that are readily available. –[[User:Dlthewave|dlthewave]] [[User_talk:Dlthewave|☎]] 18:29, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

== RFC: Frontiers Media ==

<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 15:01, 19 March 2023 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1679238081}}
{{rfc|sci|rfcid=7F984CA}}

Which of the following best describes [[Frontiers Media]]?

* Option 1: Generally reliable
* Option 2: Additional considerations apply
* Option 3: Generally unreliable
* Option 4: Deprecate

[[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_397#Frontiers_Genetics_(ethno-religious_population_origins)_and_Raphael_Falk_(academic)|RFC Before]]
[[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_329#Sourcing_with_Frontiers_Journal_in_Public_Health|Previous Discussion 1]]
[[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_263#Frontiers_in_Neurology_-_blacklisted_or_no%3F|Previous discussion 2]] [[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] ([[User talk:Selfstudier|talk]]) 14:47, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

=== Survey (Frontiers) ===
*'''Option 3, generally unreliable''' Unlike established academic publishers (Elsevier, Emerald, Springer, Sage, Wiley, Taylor & Francis, etc.), Frontiers is '''pay for publishing'''. Most respected academic publishers also offer the option to pay for open access but, crucially, that has no impact on the peer reviewing nor on the editorial decision, and authors are bot required to pay. Not so for Frontiers, where '''payment is compulsory''' and the peer-review is "fast and easy". It does not mean all research published in Frontiers is wrong (much may be correct) but it does mean that it is payment, rather than the result on the peer-review process, that decide the outcome. As such, it is generally unreliable in academia. [[User:Jeppiz|Jeppiz]] ([[User talk:Jeppiz|talk]]) 14:55, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
:: Payment is compulsory for essentially all gold OA journals, including very respectable journals. One could easily make the same critique of [[Scientific Reports]], which is also full of both junk and excellent research, but no one seems to be clamouring to make it generally unreliable. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 16:16, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
::: Open the discussion on Scientific Reports then, now that you've pointed out that its not generally reliable there will be some sort of clamor... [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 17:28, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
:::: I'm pretty sure most people who cite SciRep are well aware of its mixed reputation. It's also published by [[Springer Nature]], which is a generally reliable publisher, which makes the case for classifying it as "generally unreliable" more difficult. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 17:33, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2''' i.e. '''Status quo''' ([[WP:CITEWATCH#Frontiers Media]]). There is excellent research in frontiers journals. There's also garbage research. It's a mixed enough bag that you can't summarily rule it out as a source. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 14:58, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
*If it is “pay to publish”, then I would not call it ''generally'' reliable.  It might qualify as '''''specifically''''' reliable (context is important)… but, even then, I would treat anything they publish as SPS by the ''author''. In-text attribution would be important, and WP:DUE would come into play. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 15:23, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''#3, generally unreliable'''. With regret, because they have published some valuable articles, too. But my limited experience has taught me that utter crap is also found in Frontiers journals, published either for payment or because you're friends with the journal's chief editor and no serious journal will publish you. — [[User:Kashmiri|<span style="color:#30c;font:italic bold 1em 'Candara';text-shadow:#aaf 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em;">kashmīrī</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Kashmiri|<sup style="color:#80f;font:'Candara';">TALK</sup>]] 15:53, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2''' per HB. HB really knows what he's talking about when it comes to academic journals, and he regularly removes actual predatory journals. I don't cite frontiers very often, but I occasionally do so if the authors are subject matter experts (which means that the work is standing up on the reputation of the author rather than the journal). If it is judged generally unreliable, then there will be no room for nuance regarding these cases. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 16:16, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 3''', generally unreliable. The poor reputation at RSN discussions has persisted for years. Where is the evidence they have done anything to improve their editorial process? Bad reports continue to come out,[https://www.leidenmadtrics.nl/articles/reflections-on-guest-editing-a-frontiers-journal] and they are now being disregarded by some universities.[http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=MjM5OTY5OTU0Nw==&mid=2454145404&idx=1&sn=e4c8a9cb19c88c120946a4d65403cb0e&chksm=b0849c4887f3155e23aad0563c372f92a6cfdbc8e7fa828ccfc54ec6ccde229cee15e6a49247#rd]. In most RSN dicussions, the consistent advice I am seeing is that they shouldn't be cited for biomedical stuff[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_364#Frontiers_again] and other "important" stuff, yet that's the majority of their output. It's difficult to see why they should not be deprecated. - [[User:Hunan201p|Hunan201p]] ([[User talk:Hunan201p|talk]]) 19:44, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2''' I tend towards Headbomb's logic.  Some Frontier journals are highly respected (e.g. Frontiers in Immunology which acts as the journal of the International Union of Immunological Societies), some are not.  I wouldn't want a situation where use of very good, solid, peer-reviewed review articles in Frontier in Immunology can't be used.  [[User:Redfiona99|Red Fiona]] ([[User talk:Redfiona99|talk]]) 21:25, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''3 or 4''' - Yes, sometimes garbage journals publish good work. Sometimes they publish useful work frequently enough to be tempting to us as Wikipedia editors. Is the defense here that because its a convenient journal, despite its problems, we should be citing them anyway? It's an extraordinary and supremely rare rare situations where we absolutely need to be on the cutting edge of research, and therefor need to cite a primary source from a predatory journal where no better sources exist. [[User:Grayfell|Grayfell]] ([[User talk:Grayfell|talk]]) 07:27, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2:''' The status quo of 'use with caution' is the most practical approach. Frontiers has dozens of journals, and the case for any given journal, in any given subject area, is going to be different. The assessment of that should remain case-by-case, and be performed by editors willing to put in the legwork of scrutinizing the quality of individuals papers, their authors and the reviewers. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 09:48, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2''' is the most sensible option, per Headbomb. Papers should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. [[WP:MREL]], with the footnote being highlighted by Headbomb's unreliable.js tool, should be enough to drive people to discuss these on the talk page and determine whether a paper should or shouldn't be used. [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 10:02, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2''' The CiteWatch entry above does not seem to be invalid; no evidence has been presented that the situation has changed positively or negatively.  Problematic, but not a "never use" option.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 14:18, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''2'''. I'm sympathetic to the argument that Open Access journals where the content is free-as-in-libre content for all don't jive with funding methods relying on paying to access content and so other funding options have to be explored and is at least philosophically different then pay to play. I would not hold that against them to the full extent of a predatory/pay to play journal. That said for some of them the intentionally wide net they allow does merit caution. The current situation seems to take that into account. --[[User:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|(loopback)]] [[User_talk:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|ping]]/[[Special:Contributions/127(point)0(point)0(point)1|whereis]] 14:55, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2''' Agree with Headbomb. Every publisher publishes some garbage. I have read perfectly good review articles in Frontiers journals. I would be more concerned about the original research published there, which we shouldn't be using much anyway. [[User:Pelirojopajaro|Pelirojopajaro]] ([[User talk:Pelirojopajaro|talk]]) 21:34, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2''' per Headbomb. [[User:GretLomborg|GretLomborg]] ([[User talk:GretLomborg|talk]]) 15:29, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 3''' with a short list of acceptable journals carved out. Arguments have been made that good articles can be found in Frontiers journals. That is true. The high proportion of bad stuff, however, makes it all suspect. Darts thrown randomly at a target do occasionally hit a bullseye. That doesn't make the dart thrower reliable. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] <small>([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])</small> 04:21, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

=== Discussion (Frontiers) ===
I understood that one still can cite as SPS/subject matter expert even if the publisher is [[WP:GUNREL]], is that wrong? [[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] ([[User talk:Selfstudier|talk]]) 16:43, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

:If it's a generally reliable publisher, it isn't self-published. If the source is challenged in the talk page, you could certainly point out that the publisher is generally reliable '''and''' the author is a subject matter expert. [[User:Jc3s5h|Jc3s5h]] ([[User talk:Jc3s5h|talk]]) 16:57, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
::Sorry, my fault, using these dratted abbreviations, GR meaning [[WP:GUNREL]] as opposed to [[WP:GREL]]. Fixed. [[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] ([[User talk:Selfstudier|talk]]) 17:53, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]], [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]], [[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] - like Selfstudier says, option 3 would not exclude ever citing articles in Frontiers. However, option 2 (and 1) makes it a free for all. Perhaps our fields are different, but for me, if there is "excellent and garbage research" (as I agree there can be), I don't think we should say it's all fine. If a restaurant served some dishes that were delicious and some that were poisoned, I would not eat there. A hallmark of virtually all good academic publishers is that they ''don't'' publish garbage. I would still keep an open mind to cite experts who had published in Frontiers - but strongly caution against the status quo that anyone can cite anything from Frontiers and shrug it off by saying "it's unclear". <small>Selfstudier, Falk was a serious researcher and whatever the outcome of this discussion, I would not use it to disqualify Falk.</small> [[User:Jeppiz|Jeppiz]] ([[User talk:Jeppiz|talk]]) 16:54, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
: All publishers at least on occasion publish garbage research. Is Elsevier generally unreliable because it once published a paper that suggested that octopus were space aliens? [https://doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.pbiomolbio.2018.03.004] and which one malacologist described as {{tq|pseudoscience and nonsense}} [https://fistfulofcinctans.wordpress.com/2018/05/15/the-pseudoscience-of-octopuses-from-space/].? [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 17:07, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
:: Also publishers have better and worse journals, and bad research gets published. Again, we are in very different fields, but in my field '''no''' good journal (none of the top 200) requires payment, and ''all'' have proper review process. That is not true for Frontiers. It doesn't mean everything in Frontiers is bad or anything in Elsevier good, but it does mean they are different kinds of publishers. For Elsevier, the research has to be good (and payment for open access is optional); for Frontiers, the payment has to be made (and research quality is optional). That is not comparable. [[User:Jeppiz|Jeppiz]] ([[User talk:Jeppiz|talk]]) 17:33, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
::: Pay-for-publishing Gold OA is standard for many major publishers used in paleontology, like [[PLOS One]] and [[PeerJ]], both of which have reasonable peer review standards. The idea that a source should be looked down on because it is pay for OA, regardless of peer review standards, is not tenable across the whole of academic publishing. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 17:42, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
::::To add to Hemiauchenia's point, lots of funding bodies are moving towards "you have to publish in open access".  [[User:Redfiona99|Red Fiona]] ([[User talk:Redfiona99|talk]]) 21:26, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::"And be sure to include that in your budget proposal because we'll pay for it as part of your funding." (I'm not setting aside the impact this move toward pay-for-publishing has on self-funded researchers, graduate students, independent scholars, etc. - just noting that including this as part of your budget request for research grants has quickly become the norm in those disciplines where this is occurring.) [[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] ([[User talk:ElKevbo|talk]]) 03:29, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::As someone who works in an adjacent field, all I get is scientists complaining :) [[User:Redfiona99|Red Fiona]] ([[User talk:Redfiona99|talk]]) 00:02, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Comment:''' Here is a [https://www.researchgate.net/post/Who_has_experience_with_Frontiers_publishing_and_editorialships discussion on researchgate about Frontiers], originally shared by @[[User:Zero0000|Zero]]. It's quite interesting, with posters reporting a range of experiences with Frontiers, including many reporting experiencing a long and thorough review process with very serious reviewers. Also at least one poster who had a paper rejected (one out of four), and other interesting details about Frontiers apparently waving costs or offering cost discounts - much of which squares poorly with it being a slapdash, cash-for-publication outlet. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 09:44, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
::On the other hand, an actual participant in the review of a Frontiers study has given a different perspective.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Genetic_studies_on_Jews#Adding_eran_elhaik_2016_study_that_challenges_to_academics_and_23andMe_to_detect_jewish_type_%E2%80%9Cj%C3%BCdische_Typus%E2%80%9D] - [[User:Hunan201p|Hunan201p]] ([[User talk:Hunan201p|talk]]) 14:31, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
:::As noted at the talk page, that is not at all persuasive. [[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] ([[User talk:Selfstudier|talk]]) 14:51, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

===Question/Suggestion===
Given that pretty much everyone agrees that Frontiers is problematic, but some users point out that some of its journals are decent enough, surely the best option would be to make that distinction?  If we all agree that several journals are "garbage", it should be an easy decision to decide that they are not RS, while still keeping an open mind on the Frontiers journals identified as reliable. [[User:Jeppiz|Jeppiz]] ([[User talk:Jeppiz|talk]]) 21:06, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

:It's not even journal by journal thing (though some journal are worse than others), it's a paper by paper thing. Nearly every Frontiers journal lands in a 'sort of ish I guess maybe?' grey area. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 21:23, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
:: Seconding Headbomb's comment about these journals landing in a grey area. My only addition is that the amount of fringe in a given Frontiers journal is often directly proportional to the amount of fringe in a field, if its a wacky field it might get pretty wild. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 21:28, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
:::How is this different from what is already written at [[WP:CITEWATCH#Frontiers Media]] --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 12:53, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Headbomb|Horse Eye's Back}} In reality this seldom happens. Mostly, the bad science just keeps piling up, and the good editors exhaust themselves trying to fix the articles while the socks and the IPs wear them out. From my experience, most genetics articles on European and Asian ethnicities have sat littered with outdated pre-prints and garbage interpretations of poor sources for years. People know where the really bad citations are, but don't have the time or the energy to explain why and remove them. The idea that a website like Wikipedia with thousands of high-volume research articles (but only a handful of competent and unoccupied editors) is going to "sort everything out on a case by case basis" is extremely unrealistic and impractical. - [[User:Hunan201p|Hunan201p]] ([[User talk:Hunan201p|talk]]) 14:45, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::That's more a problem that would need a [[WP:GENRS]] akin to [[WP:MEDRS]] to solve than it is a problem requiring a ban on Frontiers journals being cited. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 16:24, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::Either route is unlikely to succeed though, as long as people favor a "grey zone" approach to source reliability. Nobody wants to compromise and set standards for the other sciences, lest that we lose the privilege of citing that one magic paper that stood out from the rest. - [[User:Hunan201p|Hunan201p]] ([[User talk:Hunan201p|talk]]) 17:26, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::This exactly matches my observation as well. I've guessing every experienced editor has had to explain why they removed bad sources. Imagine how much more tedious it is when a source is in a supposed "grey area". Nobody has that kind of time. 
:::::Human genetics articles have a specific problem where they include undue details that shouldn't be included even when supported by the best primary sources from the best journals in the field. 
:::::Being generous, I think a lot of editors just want to share their own enthusiasm for their field and lose sight of the big picture. Anyone who edits in this area knows that there is also a more sinister problem of cherry-picking to support ideological conclusions. There is no clean way to differentiate between these two motivations, but getting rid of predatory journals seems like a reasonable starting point. [[User:Grayfell|Grayfell]] ([[User talk:Grayfell|talk]]) 02:16, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

== RFC: Scientific Reports ==

<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 15:01, 19 March 2023 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1679238081}}
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 21:01, 23 March 2023 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1679605286}}
{{rfc|sci|rfcid=786F8FB}}

Which of the following best describes ''[[Scientific Reports]]''?

* Option 1: Generally reliable
* Option 2: Additional considerations apply
* Option 3: Generally unreliable
* Option 4: Deprecate

Previous discussions: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?fulltext=Search+the+noticeboard+archives&fulltext=Search&prefix=Wikipedia%3AReliable+sources%2FNoticeboard&search=%22Scientific+Reports%22&ns0=1&searchToken=1aqyatq4essq9ls84nj3z8cnp].[[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 20:57, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

===Survey===
*'''Option 2''' Whether or not a paper from SciRep should be used is very field and author dependent. While undoubtedly a lot of good and valid research is published there, so is a lot of dubious stuff, more so than other journals in the SpringerNature portfolio. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 20:57, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2''': many scholarly articles should be given little weight on Wikipedia anyways, regardless of publisher or reliability, as primary sources ([[WP:PSTS]]). A primary article that describes a new species, like [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-03231-w this one], is reliable enough to show the species has been validly published, even if subsequent taxonomists disagree or reclassify it. But a research paper in the same journal that seeks to upend an existing classification scheme of a family or phylum based on a newly sequenced blip of RNA should be weighted accordingly with other sources. [[User:Animalparty|--Animalparty!]] ([[User talk:Animalparty|talk]]) 23:13, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 3''', though some things published there may be usable via [[WP:SELFPUB]]. It is reasonably clear from its history that it exerts practically no editorial controls whatsoever; therefore it is a textbook non-[[WP:RS]] and publication there will never lend any iota of reliability. I can understand people stating that this is ''2'' (because sometimes highly-regarded experts do publish things through it, which can be used via [[WP:SELFPUB]]) but my concern is that our ratings are generally considered to be for the source itself - SELFPUB is a separate consideration that allows certain things to be used regardless of the reliability of the venue they were published in, not something that changes the fundamental unreliability of a journal with essentially no editorial controls.  And the fairly rigid structure [[WP:RSP]] has evolved into could mean that a "yellow" rating there would lead to people arguing that publication there ''sometimes'' lends reputability, or that it is disputed whether it lends inherent reliability. It never does, not ever, which means that option 3 is the best choice with the caveat that things by established experts can be used as normal via SELFPUB (true in general for things published in non-RSes) - essentially, anyone who wants to use a paper from there has to ''start'' from the presumption that it is unreliable and construct a SELFPUB argument otherwise on a case-by-case basis. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 04:28, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2''' Should be assessed on an article-by-article basis.  Some may be useful as primary sources alongside secondary sources that themselves reference material published there, but for the most part we should not be using scientific papers ''without'' a supporting secondary source that puts the primary research into context.  It's probably fine for linking in cases where we reference the material in conjunction with its discussion in secondary sources, but like ALL scientific journals, per [[WP:PRIMARY]], "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so."  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 13:50, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 3''' Misusing primary sources is already rampant on wikipedia. The journal has a checkered history, so I agree with [[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] that articles should basically be treated as self published. [[User:Sativa Inflorescence|Sativa Inflorescence]] ([[User talk:Sativa Inflorescence|talk]]) 21:03, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 3''' Primary sources like research papers should only be used with special care to begin with, and this journal fails the use-with-caution standard. Aiming for quantity indiscriminate of field is a big red flag. Peer review requires trustworthy subject-specific expert review, which is dubious when the journal as a whole disregards subject specialization. Our article [[Scientific Reports]] appears to indicate the quantity-over-quality approach bearing poor fruit. Note that this should not count against any paper published there, surely much of that work is fine. It just means publication in Scientific Reports adds little to any other publication or authority the work may otherwise have. [[User:Alsee|Alsee]] ([[User talk:Alsee|talk]]) 22:28, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
:: I suppose given that [https://scholarlykitchen.sspnet.org/2020/05/07/guest-post-the-megajournal-lifecycle/ as of 2020 SciRep was publishing 7,500-10,000 papers every year], is looking at the raw number of controversies an appropriate metric? [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 23:26, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2'''  - Other considerations apply.  (Not sure this needs a RFC -- Is there really a 'perennial' need about this source ?  But in any case hers is my input.)  As always, [[WP:CONTEXTMATTERS]] and whether the source is authoritative depends largely on what content it is being used for.  What the venue is should not be a universal up or down item.   That said, I'm dubious about the value of citing a study to an article, it generally seeming a work in progress and typically technical item of no large note.  (And I'm even more dubious about those of note or [[WP:WEIGHT]] as being suspect for sensationalism or publicising rather than scientific note.)  Cheers [[User:Markbassett|Markbassett]] ([[User talk:Markbassett|talk]]) 06:36, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 4, deprecate:''' there is not enough time to evaluate the merits of this publisher's studies on a case-by-case basis, and where this does happen it usually involves protracted edit wars, cliques, drama, etc. Wikipedia's quality and user experiences improve tremendously by setting higher standards for sources. What little value that might be lost will be more than compensated for by removing the big pile of bad studies, as well as the bloat of material that just isn't notable enough to be included in a tertiary source. What has been published by Scientific Reports that was truly important or worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia? - [[User:Hunan201p|Hunan201p]] ([[User talk:Hunan201p|talk]]) 20:44, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

===Discussion===
*I'm not sure we have a color code for "quite frequently unreliable, but reliability can be established on a case-by-case basis in fairly standard ways". The various arguments for 2 and 3 that are currently up there seem to agree to a large extent on how the journal ought to be treated in practice; the difference is how to translate that into suitable Wikipedia jargon. [[User:XOR&#39;easter|XOR&#39;easter]] ([[User talk:XOR&#39;easter|talk]]) 16:36, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
*Unless Sci Rep has started publishing review articles, is this more of a "people using primary sources when they shouldn't" problem?  [[User:Redfiona99|Red Fiona]] ([[User talk:Redfiona99|talk]]) 00:09, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Do Not List In RSN''' - this seems not usable for RSP results.  Unless there are a number of past instances where this was one "whose reliability and use on Wikipedia are frequently discussed" then by definition it does not belong in RSP.  If there *are* past discussions, then they should be described by the RFC as the reason for the discussion and not as a generic search link that returns false hits on the phrase "scientific reports".  In this case the generic search seems to have 4 which actually question SR, and only one case came to a conclusion which was that particular study was just that -- a first-person report of a study which did not suit the article CONTEXT of MEDRS.  In WP sense, this seems -- not an entry for RSP, and utility depends on context.   But really, just stop asking about every venue there is.  Cheers [[User:Markbassett|Markbassett]] ([[User talk:Markbassett|talk]]) 18:03, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

== The Wire (Indian Publication) and Meta Controversy ==

With the increasing use of The Wire as a source for citation for various articles, we should assess The Wire as a reliable source for Wikipedia. Attached are some links below to go over the controversy.

[https://scroll.in/article/1034872/explainer-why-the-wire-and-meta-are-trading-charges-over-bjps-alleged-privileges-on-instagram Scroll Explainer]

[https://about.fb.com/news/2022/10/what-the-wire-reports-got-wrong/ Meta's Report] [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 03:16, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

:I'm a little confused here. Is there any reason anyone on this planet should believe anything Meta says? I mean, come on.

:If there's more to this, we certainly need a much better source than Meta. [[User:Bloodofox|&#58;bloodofox:]] ([[User talk:Bloodofox|talk]]) 03:47, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
:Are there other issues with Wire that require an assessment of their use on Wikipedia? Wire-Meta seems premature for the community to discuss as even the tech community appears to be divided/confused as to what's going on, per the scroll source. [[User:Slywriter|Slywriter]] ([[User talk:Slywriter|talk]]) 04:15, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
::The Wire has conceded that there was a breach of moral conduct. The printed story seemed politically motivated because it was pursued with fabricated evidence.
::Hence the question that the story it publishes is reliable enough to cite as a source.
::https://thewire.in/media/the-wire-editorial-to-our-readers-an-apology-and-a-promise
::https://www.newslaundry.com/2022/10/27/the-wire-issues-apology-cites-deception-by-a-member-of-our-meta-investigation-team [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 04:55, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
*We obviously can't just take the fact that Meta itself (as a primary source) disputes the Wire's coverage as evidence that there's some problem the Wire is unreliable; this, at least, is an obvious [[WP:MANDY]] situation - if the simple fact that the subject of a piece denied things was enough to render a source unreliable, no source that reports on anything controversial could be reliable. And even if there was secondary coverage saying that the Wire got ''this particular'' thing wrong (and the Scroll article - which isn't particularly impressive as a source - says no such thing, it just reports competing claims), that wouldn't necessarily impact their status as a [[WP:RS]], because a source's reliability is based on its overall {{tq|reputation for fact-checking and accuracy}} and not one particular incident. Do you have any reason to think that the Wire's ''overall'' reputation has been harmed by this, as opposed to them just saying some things that Meta disputes? --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 04:16, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
*:Agreed we cannot take Meta's statement as the truth. However, the issue is that The Wire conceded that there was a breach of conduct from one of their employees (fabricating the evidence). Reporting something wrong and fabricating something to prove a story are different things.  [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 04:59, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
*:It's not just meta saying things; it's ''The Wire'' fabricating things and destroying their reputation. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">[[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">(nest)</span>]]</sub></span> 20:32, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
*Is there any indication (ideally from a reliable source) that we should consider this to be more than a deplorable, yet individual incident? ''[[Der Spiegel]]'' is by consnesus generally reliable, inspite of the mass fabrications by [[Claas Relotius]]. –[[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]] ([[User talk:Austronesier|talk]]) 06:14, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
*:{{re|Austronesier}} See [https://www.economist.com/asia/2022/10/27/a-prominent-indian-independent-news-site-destroys-its-own-credibility ''The Economist''], which notes that ''The Wire'' destroyed its reputation in this whole affair. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">[[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">(nest)</span>]]</sub></span> 20:33, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Still reliable''' They did a story and took it back with a notice. There is nothing wrong with that. [[User:Capitals00|Capitals00]] ([[User talk:Capitals00|talk]]) 06:21, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
*:[https://www.economist.com/asia/2022/10/27/a-prominent-indian-independent-news-site-destroys-its-own-credibility The Economist] provides credible information that there was an intentional breach of journalistic morals (fabricating evidence).  [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 22:10, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
*Every source screws up at least once.  It's only the ''response'' to the screw up and the ''pattern'' of behavior that matters, not a singular event.  The Wire's response seems appropriate as to what a reliable source does when one of its employees engages in bad practices; this is a sign that they are reliable, not the other way around.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 13:45, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
*<s>'''Deprecate'''</s> '''Generally unreliable''' Poorly worded opening post, which lacks any background. The issue is not that Meta disputed their report. MANDY is horribly misapplied here. The issue isn't that they made a "mistake", either, or that they were hoaxed by an employee (which happened to the most reliable outlets). The issue is that
:* an employee completely fabricated evidence used in news stories that had ''multiple'' senior editors on the byline
:*that this fabrication was so blatant that the most basic fact-checking mechanisms would have caught it
:*that these senior editors publicly stood by the story, saying that it was based on [https://www.engadget.com/what-happened-with-meta-and-the-wire-205029877.html two separate sources].
:*that the outlet as a whole (not just the fired journalist) vociferously ''quadrupled-down'' on the fabricated story
:*and that this "explosive" news story is exactly the kind of story that ''actual'' WP:RS would either jointly investigate with other WP:RS, or at least scrutinise very deeply. A good example is [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/15/revealed-disinformation-team-jorge-claim-meddling-elections-tal-hanan this] competent joint reporting by ''The Guardian'' and other outlets.
:This fiasco could ''never'' have happened at a reputable outlet. ''The Wire'''s editors admit that they never bothered to verify the sourcing, despite public claims otherwise, and despite that being journalism 101. We judge reliability based on the level of editorial scrutiny. This story shows that ''The Wire'' has none, and firing the at-fault journalist does not address this. ''The Economist'' [https://www.economist.com/asia/2022/10/27/a-prominent-indian-independent-news-site-destroys-its-own-credibility says] The Wire fell for a "massive conspiracy", and blames The Wire's partisanship. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/18/india-facebook-meta-the-wire/ WaPo notes] growing questions about The Wire’s integrity and accuracy. The Editors Guild of India, their national journalistic association which had previously stood by The Wire, now [https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/post-wire-apology-editors-guild-retracts-statement-on-tek-fog-urges-due-diligence-in-reporting-445163 calls out] their circumvention of journalistic norms and checks.
:We simply cannot treat an outlet that lacks proper "journalistic norms and checks" as reliable. Let's not be lenient on this. [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 15:22, 17 February 2023 (UTC)<small><ins> changing from Deprecate to GUNREL, since this isn't an RFC 22:16, 17 February 2023 (UTC)</ins></small>
:: India has no reputable outlets left, not a single one. The irony is that even after all of this The Wire is probably still the most reliable Indian news source... If we were to move to prohibit the use of every source as reliable or less we would be prohibiting the entire Indian media industry. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 17:58, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
::: Only 194 to go. 
::: More seriously, thanks to those who have clarified this is more than a simple dispute. Based on the above fact set, I would support some form of downgrading of the Wire, though not sure we are in deprecate territory yet. [[User:Slywriter|Slywriter]] ([[User talk:Slywriter|talk]]) 18:50, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
:::I have to kindly disagree. India has many reputable sources and reliable outlets like The Indian Express, The Hindu, etc. 
:::Breach of journalistic ethics by The Wire in the above case contradicts your argument. [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 21:37, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
::Agreed with most of the points presented.
::Will make sure more background is provided in the future. [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 21:41, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
::{{re|DFlhb}} For what it's worth, deprecation can only be achieved by formal RfC. I'm not sure that I would support outright deprecation (this is probably ''fine'' for run-of-the-mill facts) but I do think the question deserves discussion. Do you think that it would be wise for me to open up a standard four-option RfC below? — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">[[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">(nest)</span>]]</sub></span> 21:56, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
:::In that case, I'll change my !vote to "generally unreliable". It's indeed pretty reasonable for outlets to be declared GUNREL before being considered deprecated, so proper scrutiny can be applied for each "downgrade". Also, I'll likely have little time to contribute over the next few weeks, except watching my watchlist, so I won't be able to do the kind of more in-depth analysis I like to do in RFCs. [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 22:14, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Not generally reliable'''. Like {{u|Jayron32}} says above, {{tq|the ''response'' to the screw up and the ''pattern'' of behavior}} matters most when determining whether a news group has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. But, looking at the response to the screw up and the pattern of behavior here, I am struggling to draw lines between ''The Wire's'' response and that of ''Rolling Stone'' following its publication of ''[[A Rape on Campus]]''; for various reasons including the lack of rigor in ''Rolling Stone''{{'}}s editorial standards for that topic area, we have [[WP:ROLLINGSTONEPOLITICS]]. {{u|DFlhb}} lays out a persuasive case that ''The Wire'' no longer possesses the reputation for fact-checking that generally reliable sources do, and the reputation of ''The Wire'' seems to have taken a hit inside of even the more reliable Indian newsrooms, following both its fabricated October reporting about ''Meta'' and its fabrications relating to [[Tek fog]]:{{pb}}[https://www.news18.com/news/india/decoding-the-wires-meta-investigation-from-deception-to-withdrawal-and-apology-6254353.html CNN-News18] and [https://www.newslaundry.com/2022/10/20/expert-take-why-was-the-wire-compelled-to-pull-down-its-meta-stories NewsLaundry] give a decently long summary of the extent to which evidence was fabricated for the October story regading Meta:
*#''The Wire'' had alleged that an Indian government official more or less had the power to remove posts on Instagram. Meta denied the story.
*#When Meta initially denied the story, ''The Wire'' posted fabricated screenshots stating that a user had "X-check" privileges. Meta responded by stating that the "X-check" privilege did not actually allow what ''The Wire'' said it did ([https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/18/india-facebook-meta-the-wire/ previous reporting] did not indicate that the privileges could actually be used to take down posts), and that the screenshots contained a fabricated url on a page designed to look as if it were something related to Instagram.
*#After Meta responded saying that the url and website were deceptively fabricated and the privileges shown in the previous screenshots did not do what ''The Wire'' claimed, ''The Wire'' released a doctored video to back up its reporting that falsely claimed to show one of its journalists having access to Instagram's backend.
*#Aside from all of this, both experts ''The Wire'' claimed it received access to an email from Meta executives, which the Meta executives denied. ''The Wire'' claimed that it had conducted checks with specific experts in cybersecurity to verify that the content of the email was legitimate, but those experts themselves say that they never talked to ''The Wire'' or that they explicitly refused to run the verification. ''The Economist'', linked below, notes that the email was written in painfully broken English, which is not exactly expected of senior anglophone Meta executives, and this should have been a bright red flag for ''The Wire''. 
*#Within two weeks of publication, the entire meat of the story had been publicly shown to have been a total and utter fabrication, and CNN-News18 notes that ''The Wire'' has been accused of fabricating evidence to validate its report after the fact.
:After this whole fiasco, ''The Economist'' [https://www.economist.com/asia/2022/10/27/a-prominent-indian-independent-news-site-destroys-its-own-credibility wrote] that ''The Wire'' had {{tq|shattered its own credibility}} and criticized the Indian news website's editors for their {{tq|stupidity of choosing partisanship over process}}. If you have access to ''The Economist'', I hope you read the whole article, as it's truly eye-opening regarding this news source. ''The Washington Post'', in their [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/18/india-facebook-meta-the-wire/ esposé] on the issue, also tore into the doubling-down and tripling-down, suggesting that basically every attempt by ''The Wire'' to provide evidence just kept raising more questions in ''The Wire''{{'}}s reporting.
:Next, let's look at a summary of the ([https://thewire.in/tekfog/en/1.html under review] but [https://thewire.in/government/tek-fog-and-a-dangerous-new-world not officially retracted]) [[Tek Fog]] story, which [https://www.indiatoday.in/news-analysis/story/wire-meta-debacle-6-questions-indian-liberals-must-answer-2292821-2022-11-03 ''India Today''] correctly notes is {{tq|even more damaging than the Meta controversy}}:
:#''The Wire'', in January 2022, published a story alleging that a secret app, called "[[Tek Fog]]" was allegedly being used by the BJP and by the Indian government to harass female journalists.
:#The story was quickly picked up internationally, particularly in the opinion sections of ''[https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/01/18/the-wire-sheds-light-on-india-tek-fog-hate-online/ Washington Post]'' and Bloomberg, a academic blog post from [https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/medialse/2022/08/10/post-truth-misinformation-fact-checking-a-state-sponsored-tale-of-intimidation-of-journalists/ London School of Economics], as well as nationally on Indian TV and among other Indian news organizations.
:#At the time, the [https://twitter.com/IndEditorsGuild/status/1480763857941397508 Editors Guild of India] expressed significant concerns regarding the treatment of women journalists in India.
:#After the whole ''Meta scandal'', news organizations systematically re-evaluated the reliability of the Tek Fog reporting. In light of the battered reputation for fact-checking within ''The Wire''{{'}}s investigative reporting, the [https://scroll.in/latest/1036058/editors-guild-removes-references-to-articles-on-tek-fog-after-the-wire-retracts-its-investigation issued a statement] saying that {{tq|serious questions on the veracity of their reporting}} and called upon news groups {{tq|to resist the temptation of moving fast on sensitive stories, circumventing due journalistic norms and checks}}. Bloomberg news even [https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/bloomberg-retracts-column-on-tek-fog/2022/10/31/a81bf690-5980-11ed-bc40-b5a130f95ee7_story.html retracted(!) an opinion article] on Tek Fog because it had been based on reporting from ''The Wire''.
:Both of these stories alleged extremely serious violations—and wound up being of extremely questionable factual accuracy. The response to criticism of the October investigation into Meta was simply to double- and triple-down on the fabrications that they had published. And so too was their response to [[Tek Fog]]; until the Meta story completely and utterly fell apart in front of their very eyes ''ten months after they published the Tek Fog piece'', ''The Wire''{{'}}s editorial staff had  refused to issue a correction—despite the report being extremely factually dubious. This is a sign that the organization has irresponsible oversight from editors, and the organization frankly does not have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy in its investigative journalism. For reasons of having systemic deficiencies in editorial oversight and editors from the paper repeatedly and publicly insisting that false and fabricated content was true until the weight of criticism against them became too great to handle, and several well-respected publications more or less saying that ''The Wire''{{'}}s credibility is totally shot following this charade, this should source not be considered to be generally reliable—and I would have great concern about using this ''whatsoever'' with respect to [[WP:BLP]]s. This isn't a case where we're dealing with simple errors or misinformation; these stories well appear to be intentional political disinformation attempts. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">[[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">(nest)</span>]]</sub></span> 19:12, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
::Agreed. This is a case of intentional manipulation for political goal-scoring where it seems even the top leadership has a role. [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 21:50, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
=== RfC: ''The Wire'' (India) ===
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 03:01, 25 March 2023 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1679713283}}
{{rfc|prop|media|rfcid=466B5C8}}
Which of the following best describes the reliability of Indian news website ''[[The Wire (India)|The Wire]]'' <small>([https://thewire.in/ direct url])</small>? 
*'''Option 1:''' [[WP:GREL|generally reliable]] for factual reporting
*'''Option 2:''' Unclear or [[WP:MREL|additional considerations apply]]
*'''Option 3:''' [[WP:GUNREL|Generally unreliable]] for factual reporting
*'''Option 4:''' Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be [[WP:DEPS|deprecated]]
— <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">[[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">(nest)</span>]]</sub></span> 02:02, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
====Survey: ''The Wire'' (India) ====
*'''Option 3'''. As I've noted in my [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReliable_sources%2FNoticeboard&diff=1139965711&oldid=1139961285 large comment] above, what we have here is a website that was exposed for creating hoaxes out of whole cloth in order to engage in political disinformation. The set of fabrications published by ''The Wire'' are of such a complex scale as to be compared to infamously fabricated ''Rolling Stone'' piece "[[A Rape on Campus]]", and many of the same deficiencies that plagued ''Rolling Stone'' at the time appear to be plaguing ''The Wire''. When Meta contested the reporting from ''The Wire'', the website [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/18/india-facebook-meta-the-wire/ outright accused Meta of fabrication] rather than admitting its mistakes promptly. They only withdrew the story after doubling- and tripling-down on baseless allegations that were supported by fabricated evidence; rather than doing their due diligence ''before'' making extraordinary claims about Meta, ''The Economist'' [https://www.economist.com/asia/2022/10/27/a-prominent-indian-independent-news-site-destroys-its-own-credibility correctly observes] that ''The Wire''{{'}}s editorial staff undertook the {{tq|stupidity of choosing partisanship over process}} and in the process {{tq|shattered its own credibility}}. Responsible news organizations don't attempt to cover up their mistakes by continuing to fabricate evidence; after being asked to retract the piece, as ''The Washington Post'' notes, {{tq|''The Wire'' also published screenshots of emails it said were from independent experts vouching for its authenticity, but those emails showed incorrect dates from 2021. '''The images were edited to show the correct dates [(i.e. 2022)] after the story published, but not before readers caught the error'''}}. And lo and behold, those emails were ''indeed'' fabricated; everyone who ''The Wire'' claims to have sent them an email either explicitly stated that they refused to work with ''The Wire'' or stated that they had not been contacted by ''The Wire''. This is a total failure of editorial integrity, from the reporters who initially made the incorrect reports, to the editors who knowingly allowed a doctored email to be published in an attempted cover-up rather than admit their mistake.{{pb}}It isn't just foreign observers who lack confidence in ''The Wire'' following these revelations. The [[Editors Guild of India]] has noted that issues with factual accuracy extend deeper into the website's investigative reporting, [https://scroll.in/latest/1036058/editors-guild-removes-references-to-articles-on-tek-fog-after-the-wire-retracts-its-investigation noting] {{tq|serious questions on the veracity of their reporting}} in ''The Wire''{{'s}} investigation of [[Tek fog]], an alleged app that allegedly allowed people to send automated messages to harass female journalists, and reminding the media organization {{tq|to resist the temptation of moving fast on sensitive stories, circumventing due journalistic norms and checks}}.{{pb}}All in all, this was a ''total and utter'' failure of fact-checking on topics that allege significant (and perhaps criminal) wrongdoing against specific parties, on multiple occasions, both on topics with explicit political relevance. This goes beyond sloppiness or misinformation—this was ''disinformation'' that appears to have been conducted and approved by both the journalists who wrote the original report as well as the editors who initially attempted to cover that very same report up. I would never want to cite this source for facts about a [[WP:BLP]], nor for contentious facts. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">[[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">(nest)</span>]]</sub></span> 02:02, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::No reliable secondary sources accuses the editors of covering up or political disinformation nor do they mention accusations on those lines by any third party. To the contrary, [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/18/india-facebook-meta-the-wire/ the Washington Post article] features a comment by the main person (the [[Centre for Internet and Society (India)|CIS]] co-founder) who unraveled the fabrications, where he says that the editor "maintained his personal integrity". This is pertinent because you have missed a key fact that we would not be certain that those emails were fabricated if the editor had not co-operated and disclosed the identities of the senders (they were kept anonymous). 

::If they really wanted to, they could have forgone accountability and easily rode on their reputation and it would have remained a debated issue among tech experts. Most of the retractions and commentary came after their own retraction. The structural conditions, i.e pressures on journalistic organisations, the need to protect sources, outstretched resources and the state of press freedom is in far severe condition in India than in the United States (read [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/27/world/asia/india-modi-media.html this article by NYT]), so any comparison is misguided.

::And saying that "foreign observers lack confidence in The Wire" (or reliable Indian ones) is inaccurate and there isn't much substantive evidence for it. It should be noted that [https://www.economist.com/asia/2022/10/27/a-prominent-indian-independent-news-site-destroys-its-own-credibility ''The Economist'' piece] is an opinion column that is  making an appeal to ''The Wire'' and in general, and compares their reporting to things like [[Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections|Russian interference]] in US elections and the [[Facebook–Cambridge Analytica data scandal|Cambridge Analytics scandal]] related to Brexit, describing them as similar mistakes, as far as I understand these are still debated over if not accepted. The [https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/post-wire-apology-editors-guild-retracts-statement-on-tek-fog-urges-due-diligence-in-reporting-445163 full EGI statement] is also a reference to the reporting on the Tek Fog app specifically; it says {{xt|"Since the Wire has removed those stories as part of their internal review following serious questions on the veracity of their reporting, the Guild withdraws the references made to all those reports"}}. It shouldn't be conflated as a judgement of ''The Wire'' general reporting.  <span style="background-color:#B2BEB5;padding:2px 12px 2px 12px;font-size:10px">[[User:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Tayi Arajakate'''</span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sub></span> 09:05, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

* '''Option 1''' Fabrications and deception by [https://www.altnews.in/devesh-kumar-untangling-a-mega-web-of-lies-and-deceit/ one of their employees] (who was subsequently sacked) shouldn't be conflated with the news publisher as a whole. Both the stories whether Tek Fog or the one on Meta were retracted and an apology published. This is standard practise when journalistic misconduct does occur and is an indication of a reliable source.

:They otherwise have a solid track record of investigative journalism and reputation as a high quality news publication, consistently receiving both major Indian and international awards. A lot could be written on this but I'll give one prime example that shows that they are considered authoritative and clearly demonstrate that it's a reliable source. [[BBC News]] has the most extensive coverage of any high quality international news publisher in India and they regularly, in nearly every major (and extremely contentious) story on India, use ''The Wire'' as a source for important related facts, without seeing the need for any attribution or qualification (such as describing it as a claim) and simply with hyperlinks directly to "thewire.in", some instances (note that these are hard to collect since they don't come up in searches, but are rather abundant):

#[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-60544034 hyperlink at "ensure that Muslims stop wearing skullcaps"]
#[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-59952851 hyperlink at "called Muslims demons", another one at " people have been held over tweets" and another one at "held for putting up posters"]
#[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-41021373 hyperlink at "criticism"]
#[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-58406194 hyperlink at "a vendor was beaten up"], etc etc

:Other international outlets have a similar practise, using it as a source and present its reporting as facts, a few instances below.
#[https://www.cjr.org/analysis/delhi-india-violence-modi-press-freedom.php this report] in ''[[Columbia Journalism Review]]'' on threats to journalists during the [[2020 Delhi riots]], it was used as a source for facts (see {{xt|"...fifty-three people, the majority of whom were Muslim, had been killed..."}} ("fifty-three people" is hyperlinked to a thewire.in article).
#[https://thediplomat.com/2021/11/indias-sedition-law-needs-to-be-buried/ this piece] (hyperlink at "disaffection") in the ''[[The Diplomat]]'' uses it as a source for facts on jurisprudence regarding the sedition law in India
#[https://www.codastory.com/newsletters/infodemic-september-21/ this Coda Media report] (hyperlinks to 4 articles at "rebuke", "had", "observed" and "maintained") uses it as a source for facts regarding migrant workers during COVID-19 pandemic and inconsistencies in the government's claims
#[https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/11/17562108/india-department-of-telecommunications-trai-net-neutrality-proposal-approval this piece] in ''[[The Verge]]'' on net neutrality
#[https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/india/haridwar-hate-speech-yati-narsinghanand-b1981970.html this report] from ''[[The Independent]]'' on the [[Haridwar hate speeches]], and many more.

:In addition, to give few examples of their reputation, as in how they are described, in the ''Columbia Journalism Review'' [https://www.cjr.org/special_report/india_digital_revolution_startups_scoopwhoop_wire_times.php report] on news media in India, ''The Wire'' was extensively covered and specifically described to have carried {{xt|"award-winning reporting"}}, the [[International Press Institute]] in a [https://ipi.media/indias-not-for-profit-the-wire-answers-to-no-boss-but-its-audience-and-that-pays-off/ a report] during the pandemic had stated that it {{xt|"is providing some of the best coverage in the Asia-Pacific region on the impact of the coronavirus and the lock-down on disadvantaged and disempowered Indians"}}, ''Foreign Policy'' in [https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/05/can-biden-get-tough-with-americas-friends/ one of its columns] described the publication as {{xt|"Indian's most respected online news service"}}, etc. <span style="background-color:#B2BEB5;padding:2px 12px 2px 12px;font-size:10px">[[User:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Tayi Arajakate'''</span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sub></span> 06:54, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::All of these links are from before the controversy. [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 11:38, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::'''Kindly Disagree.'''  This was not journalistic misconduct. It is a case of <u>fabrication of evidence</u> for political goal-scoring. All the cases that you have provided where The Wire has been cited as a source is before <u>October 2022</u>. I highly doubt that any credible news agency has used their story after this expose.  [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 12:07, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::It demonstrates that they had a reputation for fact checking and accuracy and any determination of the source as unreliable would mean one would have to discard all articles from this period.

:::It also doesn't appear anything has changed post—October 2022, [https://www.newslaundry.com/2022/12/17/red-ink-awards-barkha-dutt-and-siddharth-varadarajan-among-winners in December 2022], they won 2 [[Red Ink Award]]s, one for their contribution in the [[Pegasus Project]] collaboration as it's Indian partner (which they still are, and it includes reputable publications from around the world) and one for their [https://thewire.in/lgbtqia/transgender-prisoners-india report on transgender prisoners]. The [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0dkb2kx BBC documentary], ''[[India: The Modi Question]]'' (which is very high stakes), released in January 2023, features the editor of ''The Wire'' in an authoritative capacity. <span style="background-color:#B2BEB5;padding:2px 12px 2px 12px;font-size:10px">[[User:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Tayi Arajakate'''</span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sub></span> 13:22, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::::[[India: The Modi Question]] documentary is a controversial documentary. The Wire has a known history of political bias against the present government in India hence much of its reporting is in that particular space. The documentary is a critique of the present Indian government's domestic policies. Most of the journalists who are currently part of The Wire have presented their critical analysis on the then Gujarat government (2002) and the present Indian government, therefore are part of the documentary. (We are not discussing the authenticity of their analysis here) 
::::The Wire fabricating a piece of evidence to pursue a story with biased editorial oversight is a whole different case. Why I said 'biased' is because there have been no repercussions for senior editors or the board members of The Wire.  [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 20:40, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::::: It was controversial with supporters of the present Indian government, but it was also accurate and reliable. What exactly is the issue you take with it? [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 18:18, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::What issue I have with the documentary is irrelevant to the discussion. The Wire has practiced unethical journalism is the story here. [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 00:58, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 3''', see my detailed reply in the pre-RFC discussion, which I won't summarise here. The Meta story was genuinely ludicrous; all the tech experts I follow on Twitter immediately questioned its veracity. Why didn't the outlet? This is far worse than ''A Rape on Campus'', which was at least ''a little'' plausible. The Meta story had several senior editors (including a founding editor) on the byline. When Meta said sources were fabricated, these senior editors should have checked (indeed, any outlet would have done so ''before'' initial publication). Instead, they vociferously quadrupled-down, called Meta's denials [https://www.businessinsider.com/a-timeline-of-facebooks-controversy-indian-news-site-the-wire-2022-10?r=US&IR=T "obfuscation"], and wrote about Meta's denial in a shockingly combative way (alleging that Meta was trying to "goad" them into revealing their sources). The Wire's editorial failures go far beyond the fired journalist, and four months later, still haven't been addressed. They pledged "transparency", yet haven't publicly announced any changes to their editorial process. Firing a journalist doesn't solve their lack of editorial oversight. The Tek Fog story hasn't been corroborated by other outlets, relied on the now-fired journalist, allegedly has [https://www.theinterval.co/the-wires-tek-fog-investigation-futile-search-for-evidence/ "glaring holes"], and yet is still not retracted (only "removed from view"). It's on ''them'' to prove they addressed their editorial issues, not on us to assume they did. 
:Let's see what third-parties think:
:*"Unprecedented polarization, the trumping of ideology over facts, active hate-mongering or pamphleteering, and the death of nuance — particularly in prime time television — all make up the new normal. Journalists are increasingly either chamcha ya morcha: sycophants and shameful supplicants to power, or activists dreaming of regime change." ([https://www.semafor.com/newsletter/10/18/2022/flagship-xi-jinping-remakes-the-communist-party Semafor])
:*"a once-dependable news website", "sheer irresponsibility" ([https://slate.com/technology/2022/10/india-facebook-wire-meta-journalism.html Slate])
:*URLs shown in the report  didn't actually exist ([https://twitter.com/swodinsky/status/1579847763499847681 a MarketWatch reporter])
:*"The Wire did not ask Meta for comment [...] ahead of publishing" ([https://twitter.com/PranavDixit/status/1580583966251225089 a Buzzfeed News reporter]); that's egregious!
:I'm not alleging that this was a deliberate hoax on ''The Wire'''s part. But I don't need to. I evaluate sources based on their editorial practices, and theirs just aren't good enough. [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 12:41, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::This is easy to say in hindsight but the fact is [https://scroll.in/article/1034872/explainer-why-the-wire-and-meta-are-trading-charges-over-bjps-alleged-privileges-on-instagram tech experts were uncertain and divided]. Even [[Sophie Zhang]], someone who had understanding of Meta's systems was [https://caravanmagazine.in/media/the-wire-meta-sophie-zhang-devesh-kumar for a time convinced] by the journalist's conviction despite her initial doubts. It's also inaccurate to say they have announced no changes, they did in [https://thewire.in/media/the-wire-editorial-to-our-readers-an-apology-and-a-promise the apology they published].

::In the end there's a simple question, can you (or anyone) bring any news report of theirs or any reliable secondary coverage that questions their reporting and is not in the context of this controversy, this one journalist, or these retracted and/or withdrawn (or "removed from view" if you will) reports? 

::There is so much evidence that demonstrates that they have a {{xt|"reputation for fact checking and accuracy"}} which is [[WP:REPUTABLE|how we determine which sources are reliable]], not on our own ideas of their internal workings (based on one episode that is), one should at least be able to show a pattern across the organisation. <span style="background-color:#B2BEB5;padding:2px 12px 2px 12px;font-size:10px">[[User:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Tayi Arajakate'''</span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sub></span> 13:22, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::Zhang had left Facebook two years earlier, and had no understanding of Facebook's ''then-current'' systems. She also falsely claimed that the docs [https://twitter.com/szhang_ds/status/1579653423448096768 must have been faked by a Facebook employee], which is... understandable, given her dislike of the company, but was completely baseless. Meanwhile, [https://web.archive.org/web/20221130030614/https://twitter.com/alexstamos/status/1581407731159748608 independent observers] and [https://web.archive.org/web/20221018205416/https://twitter.com/swodinsky/status/1582391584599183361 proper journalists] were skeptical from the start, and were harassed by The Wire's supporters.
:::The fact is, trust is earned, not given. It's true that they're among the better Indian outlets, but declaring them GENREL means they can be used as sourcing in BLPs, and everywhere else. Here, "business as usual" is not tenable. The polarisation pointed out by Semafor means that it's no longer a case of outstanding independent journalists on one side, and government propagandists on the other side; sadly, the independent side is no longer fully trustworthy either. [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 14:37, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::::That doesn't answer my question, you are just showing me twitter comments and opining on them. With the evidence you have the only articles that shouldn't be used for BLPs and elsewhere are the ones that can't be used anyways because have been withdrawn/retracted. <span style="background-color:#B2BEB5;padding:2px 12px 2px 12px;font-size:10px">[[User:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Tayi Arajakate'''</span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sub></span> 15:36, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::The argument that a news outlet is printing against a government can be termed as a reliable source is meaningless in this context. 
:::::Here we have a specific case where it seems that the top leadership of The Wire has participated in the intentional fabricating of evidence. Giving them amnesty would not only set a wrong precedent but will also put a question mark on WP:RSP guidelines. [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 19:52, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::The Wire was also ordered to '''take down 14 (not 1 or 2)''' of its stories by the Telangana Court for reporting against Indian vaccine manufacturers (Bharat Biotech, COVAXIN). Yet no action was taken by the "internal editorial board" of The Wire. 
:::::(Such were the violations that Telangana Court also barred The Wire from further reporting)
:::::See:[https://www.barandbench.com/news/telangana-court-directs-the-wire-take-down-14-articles-against-bharat-biotech-covaxin-100-crore-defamation-suit Telangana Court orders The Wire to take down its stories]
:::::If you are claiming this is to be a one-time incident then I have to kindly and strongly disagree with that. [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 21:07, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::: An Indian court ordering a news source to take down a story does not mean that story is not true; indeed, given recent events, it may even be more likely that it ''is''. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 22:23, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::::If the stories were authentic, don't you think The Wire would have gone to the higher courts?
:::::::Also, many other publications would have supported them to pursue this.  [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 23:13, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
{{od|::}}{{u|DFlhb}} In fact, the very [https://slate.com/technology/2022/10/india-facebook-wire-meta-journalism.html ''Slate'' article] you quoted here shows them having a solid reputation even in midst of the controversy. I hope you read it in its entirety. Some full quotes from it:

#"The Wire has done important, noble work under duress, and its best writing remains a brilliant exemplar of what Indian journalism can do best. But going forward, it’ll be so much harder to do this type of journalism."
#"To be clear, informed analysts of the saga did not tend to believe the Wire acted maliciously in order to defame Meta. Rather, they said this was probably the result of an elaborate scheme planned by someone with a vendetta against the Wire. Or, as Stamos put it, “an extremely successful op against opposition journalism.”"
#"Misinformation from BJP foot soldiers at all levels make it so sites like the Wire are the only way anyone outside India can get an accurate view of one of the world’s most important countries."
#"Wire had become one of the most dynamic Indian publications of the Modi years, a singular bulwark against the flood of false and propagandistic “news” that took over so much of Indian media. Along with outlets like the Caravan, Scroll, Alt News, the Print, and Cobrapost, the Wire offered detailed, incisive reporting on the realities of modern-day Indian life and politics."
#"The pressure is high in the subcontinent, and the Wire’s most intrepid writers doubtlessly face daily threats of the kind few American journalists are familiar with. Yet that also makes their rectitude all the more imperative."

They are treating it like a reputable publication that has made a mistake, which is exactly what we should be doing. <span style="background-color:#B2BEB5;padding:2px 12px 2px 12px;font-size:10px">[[User:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Tayi Arajakate'''</span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sub></span> 14:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

:I did read it in its entirety, and this misdirects us into the weeds. The fact that The Wire faces threats by the government, or that they weren't outright malicious, or that "their best writing" is good, has nothing to do with their editorial standards, which is what we judge here. The two ''Slate'' quotes I give earlier ''do'' address The Wire's reliability. Note that beyond publishing an apology, "promising" to vet their stories better, and retracting the Meta story, they still haven't shown any evidence of changes. They still haven't retracted or re-examined their TekFog story, and the founding editor on the Meta byline is still employed. [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 14:44, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::It has everything to do with "editorial standards" and is exactly what we should be looking at. Coverage from reliable secondary sources is how we determine their reputation and their editorial standards. It doesn't matter whether you find it trustworthy or what you imagine their editorial standards to be. The article is more or less describing their journalism as one of the best and one of the few where you can get actual news in the country, that very very clearly shows that they are considered a reliable source.

::[[WP:REPUTABLE]] and [[WP:USEBYOTHERS]] are guidelines on reliable sources, and by now it's clear that they more than comply with both. <span style="background-color:#B2BEB5;padding:2px 12px 2px 12px;font-size:10px">[[User:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Tayi Arajakate'''</span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sub></span> 15:36, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::There's a difference between a website's ''stated'' editorial standards and the extent to which they are put into practice. If extremely senior people are disregarding editorial standards (such as happened in "[[A Rape on Campus]]"), then that reflects much, ''much'' more broadly on the quality of the organization's editorial oversight than a mere blurb of text that the news organization claims to adhere to. — [[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: #660000">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: #660000">(nest)</span>]]</sub> 15:41, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::::I second your point @[[User:Red-tailed hawk|Red-tailed hawk]]. The leading editors in this fiasco have faced no inquiries or consequences. The same editorial board is now reviewing the misconduct. This alone should be shocking for an editor with some journalistic standards.  [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 20:58, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Observation''' What would be the optics of Wikipedia declaring a news source unreliable, when that news source has been one of those recently harrassed by the Modi Government (the most recent was the BBC, whose Indian HQ was invaded by "tax inspectors") because it prints news that show the Government in a bad light?  I suggest those optics would be very poor. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 15:03, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*:Nobody here is arguing that the source unreliable because it shows the Indian government in a bad light. We're arguing that it's unreliable because of failures of editorial control and fact-checking, and that responsibility for this goes all the way up to the top. I hope that answers your question. — [[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: #660000">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: #660000">(nest)</span>]]</sub> 15:29, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::The irony here is that BBC itself seems to be find them reliable. <span style="background-color:#B2BEB5;padding:2px 12px 2px 12px;font-size:10px">[[User:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Tayi Arajakate'''</span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sub></span> 16:26, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::Why are we considering optics here? Whom are we trying to satisfy here? The only thing that should matter is if a news outlet has participated in journalistic malpractice that too intentionally on the highest level, then there should be repercussions for it.
::Those who want to consider optics should also consider that if grave misconduct by a news outlet is gone unscathed what precedent are we setting here? [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 20:00, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::: My concern is that two (yes,two) incidents are being used to turn one of the few reasonably neutral Indian news sources into "unreliable" and put it on the same footing as actual Indian fake news sites such as [[Republic TV]].  This isn't the ''Daily Mail'' or ''Russia Today'' that we're talking about here. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 20:47, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::::See:[https://www.barandbench.com/news/telangana-court-directs-the-wire-take-down-14-articles-against-bharat-biotech-covaxin-100-crore-defamation-suit Telangana Court orders The Wire to take down its stories]
::::Another violation for your reference. 
::::Also, your argument does not provide any substance to nullify points made by @[[User:Red-tailed hawk|Red-tailed hawk]] and @[[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]]. [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 21:11, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::::: I see.  Well, on the same subject, perhaps you could give us a run down of [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Geo_News&diff=1139830668&oldid=1139830105 this] edit of yours, explaining why the mainstream news services there are unreliable (I am well aware that Reddit and forums are no good, it's the other sources I'm interested in). [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 22:20, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::The context of this forum is The Wire's reliability.
::::::However, the content written was opinion based rather than having encyclopedic language. I would be happy to work with you on that article if you have some suggestions. [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek|talk]]) 22:59, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
* '''Option 1''' per {{u|Tayi_Arajakate}}. They have a lot of quality content and the response to the Meta incident shows that they have editorial standards and act upon them. [[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]]<sub>[[User_talk:Alaexis|¿question?]]</sub> 20:05, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
* '''Option 1'''. It's the response including take down and corrective measures that test a publication's reliability. The case where a ''publication themselves intentionally'' fabricates is where it is deemed unreliable. The Wire was deceived by one of their own thus causing a fiasco, the ''publication'' didn't intentionally fabricate. They ''took'' it down and ''took'' corrective actions. Unreliable sources ''don't'' — [[User:DaxServer|DaxServer]] ([[User talk:DaxServer|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/DaxServerOnMobile|m]] · [[Special:Contributions/DaxServer|c]]) 21:41, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 3''' I think arguments made by @[[User:Red-tailed hawk|Red-tailed hawk]] and @[[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] are spot on. There has been no accountability for the senior editors in this incident. What can be more shocking is the same team is reviewing this debacle. (Not the first time that The Wire is under severe scrutiny). An impartial inquiry is needed which seems highly doubtful here. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:SpunkyGeek|SpunkyGeek]] ([[User talk:SpunkyGeek#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/SpunkyGeek|contribs]]) 23:10, 18 February 2023 (UTC)</small>
*'''Option 1'''. The Wire has screwed up big time, but their ultimate response has been that of a reliable news organization, and the tenor of the most detailed pieces, such as the ''Slate'' article, suggest they have been hoodwinked rather than that they've engaged in intentional malpractice. If something similar happens again in the future, it might suggest that there's a systemic issue here, but otherwise it's too soon to deprecate. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Vanamonde93|Vanamonde]] ([[User Talk:Vanamonde93|Talk]])</span> 22:38, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*:The ''Slate'' article is a ''Future Tense'' column. We [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_396#Slate's_"Future_Tense"_columns|recently discussed]] these sorts of columns on this very noticeboard; the pieces are characterized by ''Slate'' itself as {{tq|daily commentary published on ''Slate''}}, and the piece from ''Slate'' isn't exactly [[WP:NEWSORG|straight news reporting]]. — [[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: #660000">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: #660000">(nest)</span>]]</sub> 06:31, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
:::It's quite inaccurate to charecterise ''Future Tense'' as a [[Column (periodical)|column]] (columns are personal or editorial opinion sections of particular columnists). This is a [[newsletter]] [https://slate.com/technology/future-tense under a wide collaboration], which includes commentary (and reportage) and brings in expertise with it. <span style="background-color:#B2BEB5;padding:2px 12px 2px 12px;font-size:10px">[[User:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Tayi Arajakate'''</span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sub></span> 11:10, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 1''' we shouldn't rush to judgement on the basis of one incident allegedly involving one rogue reporter. The wire has been painted as an anti-Mohdi publication and is therefore subject to intimidation, demonization and propoganda including from pro-Mohdi sources in the same way as many other respectable sources have been including the BBC. See these two articles from The Guardian for some context [https://web.archive.org/web/20230218050456/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/18/indian-journalists-bbc-raid-media here] and [https://web.archive.org/web/20230219084203/https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/19/india-enjoyed-a-free-and-vibrant-media-narendra-modis-brazen-attacks-are-a-catastrophe here], imv [[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]] ([[User talk:Atlantic306|talk]]) 22:22, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
* '''Option 1''': for an organization that won prizes for its journalism in the past, and issues corrections when they make mistakes. [[User:Mottezen|Mottezen]] ([[User talk:Mottezen|talk]]) 22:48, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
* '''Option 1''': The situation that led to this RFC is ''very bad'', but it is still singular.  The organization took the steps one would expect such an organization to take when the problem became known.  Long-term, institutional problems have not been demonstrated beyond this event.  Yes, it is not good, but it is still just one incident. --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 14:12, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Then how about Option 2: exercise additional caution for tech-related reporting? That’s a small minority of their stories; and the founding editor admitted that the main reason for this fuckup was a general lack of tech expertise among their staff, who would have caught it if they had better domain-knowledge. This would also allows us to keep using them for Indian politics, since it’s true that they’re one of the few independent publications left in India, and have done some good work. [[User:DFlhb|DFlhb]] ([[User talk:DFlhb|talk]]) 07:33, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
::No, that's a bad option and just unnecessary, it would bring into question their coverage in the Pegasus Project collaboration, for which there is no evidence that there's anything wrong with it. The rest of their other tech related news coverage is just very basic "who said what" reporting; for example [https://thewire.in/tech/whatsapp-outages-reported-across-india this report] or [https://thewire.in/rights/stan-swamys-laptop-hacked-arsenal-consulting this report], there aren't any problems with these either.

::After what happened, it's highly unlikely that they are going to try to pursue any tech related story on their own again, for the foreseeable future. And if any issue arises in the future, we can always revisit this. <span style="background-color:#B2BEB5;padding:2px 12px 2px 12px;font-size:10px">[[User:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Tayi Arajakate'''</span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sub></span> 09:25, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 1''' The Wire has retracted the problematic reporting in question. You can find problems in just any source which has published thousands of articles until now. Unless there is a pattern of biased reporting I don't think we should be really discussing this. [[User:Capitals00|Capitals00]] ([[User talk:Capitals00|talk]]) 02:51, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 1''' - It is reliable enough for a news website. I don't see evidence to the contrary even after reading the whole discussion above. [[User:Abhishek0831996|Abhishek0831996]] ([[User talk:Abhishek0831996|talk]]) 04:49, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 1''' Per Tayi and Atlantic306.{{pb}}Even giants like NYT ([[Jayson Blair]]) and WaPo ([[Janet Cooke]]) have fell victim to hoaxes courtesy rogue reporters but such episodes are blips in a stellar record of journalism across the years. Much has been made out of the fact that the outlet had "quadrupled down" on the story in face of adverse comments (before coming to retract it) but such a defensive response is natural when one considers the sorry state of media freedom in India — anyway, for a comparison, Cooke's story had raised quite a many red flags in the newsroom and even by external observers but her editor chose to not buy them and instead nominated it for a Pulitzer!{{pb}}On the overall, I have a hard time believing that the OP has followed any media scandal in the past couple of decades. The RfC is misguided and unless The Wire develops a track record of producing similar dubious stuff, we shan't be revisiting this. [[User:TrangaBellam|TrangaBellam]] ([[User talk:TrangaBellam|talk]]) 05:49, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
:*Let us see what [[Sophie Zhang (whistleblower)|a domain-expert who aided in debunking the fake story]] says:{{talkquote|I do '''not''' think that The Wire as an organisation was complicit in this, if nothing else, because <u>their behaviour was not consistent with that assumption</u>. For instance, '''The Wire provided the identities of the experts to other people to verify'''. If you knew that these were forged, it is unlikely you would do that—you would make up an excuse about their safety and say, “We can’t tell you who it is,” or something like that.|source={{Cite web|last=Zhang|first=Sophie|title=What the Wire-Meta saga means for the future of tech-reporting|url=https://caravanmagazine.in/media/the-wire-meta-sophie-zhang-devesh-kumar|date=2022-12-01|website=The Caravan|language=en}}}}
:*It is blindingly obvious that the publication was taken by a reporter — [https://www.altnews.in/devesh-kumar-untangling-a-mega-web-of-lies-and-deceit/ who has since been documented to have highly dubious antecedents and a propensity for pathological lying] — for a ride. This gullibility does reflect poorly on the organization but it was possible only because — as Zhang notes — tech journalism has not yet developed in India. [[User:TrangaBellam|TrangaBellam]] ([[User talk:TrangaBellam|talk]]) 06:44, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
::*I am also fascinated by the OP's attempt to discredit the Slate article in reply to V93 ''while'' bandying about the opinion-column in the ''Economist'' by [[Dominic Ziegler]]. Maybe they do not know about the "Banyan blog" but given their unusual confidence, I doubt it. [[User:TrangaBellam|TrangaBellam]] ([[User talk:TrangaBellam|talk]]) 07:02, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
::*:Are you saying that the piece from ''The Economist'' isn't from their newsroom? — [[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: #660000">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: #660000">(nest)</span>]]</sub> 16:33, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
::*::Yes. [[User:TrangaBellam|TrangaBellam]] ([[User talk:TrangaBellam|talk]]) 18:07, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
::*:::I had been thinking that it was. — [[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: #660000">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: #660000">(nest)</span>]]</sub> 18:52, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 1'''. Even the best publications like ''The Lancet'' (the Wakefield "vaccines cause autism" hoax) and ''The New York Times'' (the Jayson Blair incident) have, at some point or another, had these kind of screwups. What tells us if they are reliable is not that they never make an error, even a big one, as over enough time, ''they will''. Rather, it is whether they own up to it, appropriately publish corrections and retractions, and generally seem to ''care'' that they made the error and commit to doing better going forward. If this becomes a pattern, we can revisit the issue, but that hasn't happened yet. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 15:23, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 1''' The best of news organizations get taken in by a story that's too good to pass up ([[Hitler diaries]] and the venerable [[The Sunday Times]] and [[Stern|Stern (magazine)]] come to mind). Unless there is a pattern of misreporting and poor editorial judgement, there is no reason to downgrade an otherwise respectable source. --[[User:RegentsPark|RegentsPark]] <small>([[User talk:RegentsPark|comment]])</small> 16:51, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
*:<small> With all due respect, but ''[[Stern (magazine)|Stern]]'' doesn't belong in the league of "green" sources. I've checked [[WP:perennial sources]] with relief not finding it there. They fell for [[Konrad Kujau|Kujau]]'s forgeries for a reason, and would have fallen for all other Kujaus to come; they were just spared because other potential Kujaus wouldn't choose ''Stern'' because of its borderline reputation, thus being a bad venue for propagating "high-quality" hoaxes. –[[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]] ([[User talk:Austronesier|talk]]) 21:23, 22 February 2023 (UTC)</small>
*'''Option 1''' per Tayi, TrangaBellam etc. I have asked in the pre-RfC discussion if there is "any indication (ideally from a reliable source) that we should consider this to be more than a deplorable, yet individual incident?" and since then haven't seen anything that comes even close. Instead, I see a narrative that attempts to present ''The Wire'' in an undifferentiated manner as a wilful agent of fabricating false information, when no source actually support such a claim. Yes, it was reputation-shattering event, but no-one has provided evidence of a ''pattern'' of low editorial standards in their previous or subsequent output. –[[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]] ([[User talk:Austronesier|talk]]) 21:14, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 1''' - The problems that arose were in one narrow section of technology invesigative reporting, where the editorial board lacked sufficient expertise. I judge that ''The Wire'' handled it responsibly after problems were discovered. There is nothing here to castigate the media house. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 00:43, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': I am not familiar enough with the source and haven't looked through all of the links but it seems to me that nobody arguing for options 2 or 3 is basing it on any pattern pre- or post- the recent Meta reporting. Use by others up to October 2022 suggests it was widely considered reliable until then. The very upfront and prominent apology suggests that lessons have been learnt. For us to move to anything other than option 1, I'd need to see evidence outside of the Meta stories. [[User:Bobfrombrockley|BobFromBrockley]] ([[User talk:Bobfrombrockley|talk]]) 16:57, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
* '''Option 1''', they had a serious issue and according to the reliable sources they adequately addressed those issues and they are not indicative of widespread issues with their other reporting. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 18:21, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 1'''. It is absurd for us to be even considering deprecating an otherwise reputed and trustworthy news website as unreliable for a solitary instance of a slip-up, where they not only retracted the story and formally acknowledged the oversight, but took corrective measures to guard against future recurrence of it. That, if anything, reflects credit on thier journalistic ethos. ''The Wire'', indeed,  for long have distinguished themselves, amongst all the partisan noise, with thier elaborate reportage, critical and erudite commentary and critique, high journalistic and writing standards. It would be a travesty to downgrade this eminently reliable source of information. [[User:MBlaze Lightning|MBlaze Lightning]] ([[User talk:MBlaze Lightning|talk]]) 19:42, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 3''' per SpunkyGeek, Red-tailed hawk and DFlhb this is not a one time incident. Its reporting is very controversial it has been subject  to several ongoing defamation suits by businessmen and politicians  the number of cases disproportionately high for a website of its size.Here for example [[Bharat Biotech]]  has filed 100 Crore  ongoing suit against it [https://www.livelaw.in/top-stories/the-wire-bharat-biotech-covaxin-100-cr-defamation-telengana-court-take-down-192684 here] and Telangana court  ordered them to take down 14 articles [https://www.barandbench.com/news/telangana-court-directs-the-wire-take-down-14-articles-against-bharat-biotech-covaxin-100-crore-defamation-suit here][https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/remove-14-articles-on-bharat-biotech-court-to-the-wire-101645641528907.html and here][[User:Pharaoh of the Wizards|Pharaoh of the Wizards]] ([[User talk:Pharaoh of the Wizards|talk]]) 02:03, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
*:Oh, come off it. That's such an absurd proposition and a travesty. Defamation suits by rogue "businessmen and politicians" ought not be construed a blemish on the ''The Wire's'' character; it is, if anything, a testament to their bold, intrepid and undaunted investigative journalism. Those are the earmarks that beckon amidst the jarring context of a conspicuous decline in press freedom in the country, where, paradoxically, an obtrusive section of the predominantly docile media hobnobs with a rogue, Hindu nationalist regime to boot, and disseminates disinformation to bamboozle a credulous populace. ''The Wire's'' investigative journalism has, notwithstanding the context, stood out as a torchbearer of journalism in the country. [[User:MBlaze Lightning|MBlaze Lightning]] ([[User talk:MBlaze Lightning|talk]]) 07:28, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
::Being a target of legal cases is no evidence of unreliability, if this is so then most independent press in the country would become unreliable. Do you have any <u>secondary reliable source</u> documented anything wrong with the articles related to these cases? To my knowledge, there is none whatsover. To the contrary secondary reliable sources (including scholarly ones) describe them as instances of harassment,<ref>{{Cite web |date=17 June 2021 |title=Three Indian journalists could be jailed for nine years for tweets about video |url=https://rsf.org/en/three-indian-journalists-could-be-jailed-nine-years-tweets-about-video |website=[[Reporters sans frontieres]] |language=en}}</ref> intimidation,<ref>{{Cite book |last=Deb |first=Siddhartha |title=Press Freedom in Contemporary Asia |publisher=[[Routledge]] |year=2019 |isbn=978-0-429-01303-4 |editor-last=Burrett |editor-first=Tina |pages=288—289 |language=en |chapter=Killing Press Freedom in India |quote=... The caution of the national media can in part be explained by the pressure and intimidation it can expect. The Wire was served with a criminal defamation suit by the lawyers of Jay Shah, with the court obligingly issuing a gag order until the trial was complete ... |editor-last2=Kingston |editor-first2=Jeffrey |chapter-url=https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9780429505690-18/killing-press-freedom-india-siddhartha-deb}}</ref> attacks on press freedom,<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Ghoshal |first=Somak |date=2020 |title=Open book? In India, where people are forced to download a tracking app to get paid, journalists are worried about it also being used to access their contacts |journal=Index on Censorship |language=en |volume=49 |issue=2 |pages=53–55 |doi=10.1177/0306422020935803 |issn=0306-4220 |quote=... the government’s retaliation against independent journalists who are exposing the human costs of the pandemic is severe. Siddharth Varadarajan, founding editor of news platform The Wire, was recently summoned by police to Ayodhya, a city in Uttar Pradesh, 435 miles away from his home in Delhi, during the height of the national lockdown, when travel even within cities was severely restricted ... |via=[[SAGE Journals]]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal |last=Mukherji |first=Rahul |date=2020 |title=Covid vs. Democracy: India’s Illiberal Remedy |journal=[[Journal of Democracy]] |volume=31 |issue=4 |pages=91–105 |doi=10.1353/jod.2020.0058 |issn=1086-3214 |via=[[Project MUSE]]}}</ref> [[strategic lawsuits against public participation]],<ref>{{Cite web |last=AK |first=Aditya |date=26 November 2018 |title=Another SLAPP in the face? Anil Ambani’s Reliance Group now has The Wire in its crosshairs |url=https://www.barandbench.com/news/another-slapp-in-the-face-anil-ambanis-reliance-group-now-has-the-wire-in-its-crosshairs |website=Bar and Bench |language=en}}</ref> etc. 

::Here [https://www.livelaw.in/top-stories/the-wire-bharat-biotech-covaxin-100-cr-defamation-telengana-court-take-down-192684 the takedown order] isn't even any kind of judgement, it's an ''[[ad interim]] [[ex parte]] injunction'', i.e a temporary order (for the duration of the case) granted solely on the basis of one party's concern. In 2017, the same injuction was applied on a different case and [https://www.barandbench.com/news/bangalore-court-vacates-order-urging-the-wire-to-take-down-articles-on-rajeev-chandrasekhar dismissed after two years], it means absolutely nothing. <span style="background-color:#B2BEB5;padding:2px 12px 2px 12px;font-size:10px">[[User:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Tayi Arajakate'''</span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sub></span> 10:00, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

* '''Option 1 (Weak vote)''' I am definitely not informed enough to make a unqualified !vote on this. There's clearly editors with agenda participating in this discussion, which seems to have driven up the back-and-forth engagement through the roof. However just reading all the arguments (and not having done enough background research of my own), I'm not convinced at all by '''any''' argument in favour of Option 3. There's a few facts that are being recycled through over and over in the hopes of convincing others, without addressing most of the core issues brought up by others. I'd request any closing admins to scrutinise policy behind the arguments very heavily. [[User:Soni|Soni]] ([[User talk:Soni|talk]])  04:29, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

{{reflist talk}}

====Discussion: ''The Wire'' (India) ====
*{{yo|SpunkyGeek|Horse Eye's Back|Jayron32|Capitals00|Austronesier|Aquillion|Slywriter|Bloodofox}} I'm pinging you to notify you about this RfC, as you have all contributed to the discussion immediately preceding it. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">[[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">(nest)</span>]]</sub></span> 02:05, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
**{{yo|DFlhb}} as well. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">[[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">(nest)</span>]]</sub></span> 02:06, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*:If I've missed someone who participated in the preceding discussion, feel free to ping them. I tried to go from bottom to top and ''think'' I got all the users who participated in the discussion, but it doesn't hurt to check. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">[[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">(nest)</span>]]</sub></span> 02:07, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
* Note, I've left notices at [[Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics]] and [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Journalism]] regarding this discussion. <span style="background-color:#B2BEB5;padding:2px 12px 2px 12px;font-size:10px">[[User:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Tayi Arajakate'''</span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Tayi Arajakate|<span style="color:#660000">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sub></span> 14:04, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*I never got your ping. [[User:Capitals00|Capitals00]] ([[User talk:Capitals00|talk]]) 02:45, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
*:That's odd. You're in the list above (and I think other editors got their pings?). Has this issue affected anyone else? — [[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: #660000">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: #660000">(nest)</span>]]</sub> 16:29, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
:::I didn't get mine. Wasn't an issue though. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 01:58, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Red-tailed hawk|Red-tailed hawk]], I suspect that your ping failed for everyone. [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Echo#Technical_details This page] lists the triggers for pings to work. Because [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReliable_sources%2FNoticeboard&diff=1140027101&oldid=1140026637 your edit] began with a change to an existing line—even though you added lines later on—I'm guessing Echo skipped it. The same thing probably happened with [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=1140027101 this edit] as well. [[User:Woodroar|Woodroar]] ([[User talk:Woodroar|talk]]) 02:20, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
::::Well, I guess I've learned what not to do. Thank you for the link; I'll keep it in mind the next time I try to send a mass ping. — [[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: #660000">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: #660000">(nest)</span>]]</sub> 03:46, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

== [[Fox News]] Knew It Was A Lie: Fox News Purposely Pushed Deception On 2020 Voting ==

In case anyone hasn't noticed, the discovery process in the Dominion vs Fox case has uncovered damning info about how Fox knew [[Big lie#Donald Trump's false claims of a stolen election|Trump's "stolen election" Big lies]] were bogus, yet kept pushing the company's Murdoch agenda. “The messages exposed Fox News as a propaganda network.” Rupert Murdoch and his talking heads at Fox News all knew how ridiculous Rudy Giuliani sounded, and knew how wrong the big lie was, but they helped spread it.

As we have known for a long time, this is not an occasional "bug", but a "feature" of Fox News. For them, telling the uncomfortable truth in politics and science in the Trump age is only an occasional thing that gets the offender punished by their own colleagues and management. They must toe the party line.

Rupert Murdoch told Fox News CEO Suzanne Scott that they should try not to “antagonize Trump” by reporting the truth about bogus voter fraud claims and instead should focus on helping elect Republicans in the Georgia runoff elections. Fox has no written editorial guidelines. This is what distinguishes Fox News from an actual news organizations.

Hosts on Rupert Murdoch's propaganda channel Fox News, Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, & Laura Ingraham, didn't believe the allegations of voter fraud in the 2020 election but chose to amplify the BIG LIE, according to court filings in Dominion's $1.6 billion defamation lawsuit.

Here are a few sources, all properly formatted for immediate use. Do not remove the "name" function:

<!-- 
# Fox's Murdoch called election fraud claims a 'Trump myth,' Toronto's Dominion says in court filing - [[CBC]]<ref name="Iorfida_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last=Iorfida | first=Chris | title=Fox's Murdoch called election fraud claims a 'Trump myth,' Toronto's Dominion says in court filing | website=[[CBC]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/fox-dominion-defamation-suit-1.6752030 | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
# Fox News hosts thought Trump’s election fraud claims were ‘total BS’, court filings show - [[The Guardian]]<ref name="Luscombe_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last=Luscombe | first=Richard | title=Fox News hosts thought Trump’s election fraud claims were ‘total BS’, court filings show | website=[[The Guardian]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/feb/17/fox-news-hosts-dominion-lawsuit-trump-election-fraud-tucker-carlson-sean-hannity-laura-ingraham | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
# Fox knew vote rigging claims were false, Dominion says, as network defends coverage - [[Reuters]]<ref name="Coster_Queen_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last1=Coster | first1=Helen | last2=Queen | first2=Jack | title=Fox knew vote rigging claims were false, Dominion says, as network defends coverage | website=[[Reuters]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.reuters.com/legal/dominion-voting-systems-says-fox-knew-vote-rigging-claims-it-broadcast-were-2023-02-16/ | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
# Off the air, Fox News stars blasted the election fraud claims they peddled - [[NPR]]<ref name="Folkenflik_2/16/2023">{{cite web | last=Folkenflik | first=David | title=Off the air, Fox News stars blasted the election fraud claims they peddled | website=[[NPR]] | date=February 16, 2023 | url=https://www.npr.org/2023/02/16/1157558299/fox-news-stars-false-claims-trump-election-2020 | access-date=February 19, 2023}}</ref>
# Lawsuit filing shows Fox hosts didn't believe election fraud lies they pushed on TV - [[PBS NewsHour]]<ref name="Press 2023">{{cite web | last1=Bennett | first1=Geoff | last2=Folkenflik | first2=David | title=Lawsuit filing shows Fox hosts didn't believe election fraud lies they pushed on TV | website=[[PBS NewsHour]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/lawsuit-filing-shows-fox-hosts-didnt-believe-election-fraud-lies-they-pushed-on-tv | access-date=February 20, 2023}}</ref>
# Fox News hosts, execs privately doubted 2020 conspiracy claims shared on air - [[The Washington Post]]<ref name="Barr_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last=Barr | first=Jeremy | title=Fox News hosts, execs privately doubted 2020 conspiracy claims shared on air | website=[[The Washington Post]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2023/02/16/fox-news-2020-lies-dominion-suit/ | access-date=February 17, 2023}}</ref>
# Fox Stars Privately Expressed Disbelief About Trump’s Election Fraud Claims - [[The New York Times]]<ref name="Peters_Robertson_2/16/2023">{{cite web | last1=Peters | first1=Jeremy W | last2=Robertson | first2=Katie | title=Fox Stars Privately Expressed Disbelief About Trump’s Election Fraud Claims | website=[[The New York Times]] | date=February 16, 2023 | url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/16/business/media/fox-dominion-lawsuit.html | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
# Fox News hosts doubted 2020 election fraud claims off camera as they promoted them on air - [[Los Angeles Times]]<ref name="Chase_2/18/2023">{{cite web | last=Chase | first=Randall | title=Fox News hosts doubted 2020 election fraud claims off camera as they promoted them on air | website=[[Los Angeles Times]] | date=February 18, 2023 | url=https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-02-18/off-camera-fox-hosts-doubted-2020-election-fraud-claims | access-date=February 20, 2023}}</ref>
# Five top revelations from Dominion’s explosive court filing in Fox News lawsuit - [[The Hill (newspaper)|The Hill]]<ref name="Mastrangelo_Schonfeld_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last1=Mastrangelo | first1=Dominick | last2=Schonfeld | first2=Zach | title=Five top revelations from Dominion’s explosive court filing in Fox News lawsuit | website=[[The Hill (newspaper)|The Hill]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://thehill.com/homenews/media/3863605-five-top-revelations-from-dominions-explosive-court-filing-in-fox-news-lawsuit/ | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
# Fox News hosts called 2020 election fraud 'total BS' in private, new Dominion court filing says - [[ABC News]]<ref name="Rubin_Bruggeman_2/16/2023">{{cite web | last1=Rubin | first1=Olivia | last2=Bruggeman | first2=Lucien | title=Fox News hosts called 2020 election fraud 'total BS' in private, new Dominion court filing says | website=[[ABC News]] | date=February 16, 2023 | url=https://abcnews.go.com/US/fox-news-hosts-called-2020-election-fraud-total/story?id=97261751 | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
# Fox News stars and staffers privately blasted election fraud claims as bogus, court filing shows - [[NBC News]]<ref name="Collier_Timm_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last1=Collier | first1=Kevin | last2=Timm | first2=Jane C | title=Fox News stars and staffers privately blasted election fraud claims as bogus, court filing shows | website=[[NBC News]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.nbcnews.com/media/private-fox-news-stars-staff-blasted-election-fraud-claims-bogus-court-rcna71123 | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
# Fox News hosts, Rupert Murdoch were skeptical of Trump election fraud claims - [[CNBC]]<ref name="Rizzo_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last=Rizzo | first=Lillian | title=Fox News hosts, Rupert Murdoch were skeptical of Trump election fraud claims | website=[[CNBC]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/16/fox-news-hosts-murdoch-trump-election-claims.html | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
# Fox News hosts didn't believe 2020 election fraud claims, $1.6 billion Dominion defamation suit asserts - [[CBS News]]<ref name="CBS_2/17/2023">{{cite web | title=Fox News hosts didn't believe 2020 election fraud claims, $1.6 billion Dominion defamation suit asserts | website=[[CBS News]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fox-news-hosts-2020-election-fraud-claims-dominion-defamation-suit/ | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
# Fox News executives refused to let Trump on-air when he called in during January 6 attack, Dominion says - [[CNN]]<ref name="Grayer_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last=Grayer | first=Annie | title=Fox News executives refused to let Trump on-air when he called in during January 6 attack, Dominion says | website=[[CNN]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/17/politics/fox-news-trump-january-6/index.html | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
# Analysis: Fox News has been exposed as a dishonest organization terrified of its own audience - [[CNN]]<ref name="Darcy_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last=Darcy | first=Oliver | title=Analysis: Fox News has been exposed as a dishonest organization terrified of its own audience | website=[[CNN]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/17/business/fox-news-dominion-lies/index.html | access-date=February 20, 2023}}</ref>
# Fox News' split screen spills into view - [[Politico]]<ref name="Bade_Lizza_Daniels_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last1=Bade | first1=Rachael | last2=Lizza | first2=Ryan | last3=Daniels | first3=Eugene | title=Fox News' split screen spills into view | website=[[Politico]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook/2023/02/17/fox-news-split-screen-spills-into-view-00083407 | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
# They Knew It Was A Lie: Fox News Purposely Pushed Deception On 2020 Voting - [[The National Memo]]<ref name="Tulbert_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last=Tulbert | first=Julie | title=They Knew It Was A Lie: Fox News Purposely Pushed Deception On 2020 Voting | website=[[The National Memo]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.nationalmemo.com/fox-news-2659432889 | access-date=February 17, 2023}}</ref>
# I Never Truly Understood Fox News Until Now - [[The Atlantic]]<ref name="Stelter 2023">{{cite web | last=Stelter | first=Brian | title=I Never Truly Understood Fox News Until Now | website=[[The Atlantic]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/02/fox-news-dominion-voting-lawsuit-2020-election-conspiracy/673111/ | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
# Why Fox News Lied to Its Viewers - [[The Atlantic]]<ref name="Serwer_2/19/2023">{{cite web | last=Serwer | first=Adam | title=Why Fox News Lied to Its Viewers | website=[[The Atlantic]] | date=February 19, 2023 | url=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/02/fox-news-dominion-lawsuit-trump/673132/ | access-date=February 20, 2023}}</ref>
# Tucker Carlson’s Dominion Text Messages Are a Thing of Beauty - [[Slate (magazine)|Slate]]<ref name="Stahl_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last=Stahl | first=Jeremy | title=Tucker Carlson’s Dominion Text Messages Are a Thing of Beauty | website=[[Slate (magazine)|Slate]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/02/tucker-carlson-text-messages-dominion-lawsuit-fox-news.html | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
# Fox stars privately bashed election fraud claims the network pushed - [[Axios (website)|Axios]]<ref name="Chen_Habeshian_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last1=Chen | first1=Shawna | last2=Habeshian | first2=Sareen | title=Fox stars privately bashed election fraud claims the network pushed | website=[[Axios (website)|Axios]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.axios.com/2023/02/17/fox-news-dominion-election-fraud | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
# Fox News Lied to Viewers to Keep Them From Fleeing, According to Dominion Suit - [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]<ref name="Maddaus_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last=Maddaus | first=Gene | title=Fox News Lied to Viewers to Keep Them From Fleeing, According to Dominion Suit | website=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/fox-news-dominion-voting-lawsuit-summary-judgment-1235527048/ | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
# CNN’s Oliver Darcy: Leaked Messages In Dominion Lawsuit ‘Expose Fox News As A Propaganda Network’ - [[Forbes]]<ref name="Joyella_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last=Joyella | first=Mark | title=CNN’s Oliver Darcy: Leaked Messages In Dominion Lawsuit ‘Expose Fox News As A Propaganda Network’ | website=[[Forbes]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/markjoyella/2023/02/17/cnns-oliver-darcy-leaked-messages-in-dominion-lawsuit-expose-fox-news-as-a-propaganda-network/ | access-date=February 20, 2023}}</ref>
# A juicy new legal filing reveals who really controls Fox News - [[Vox (website)|Vox]]<ref name="Prokop_2/18/2023">{{cite web | last=Prokop | first=Andrew | title=A juicy new legal filing reveals who really controls Fox News | website=[[Vox (website)|Vox]] | date=February 18, 2023 | url=https://www.vox.com/2023/2/18/23604076/fox-news-trump-tucker-carlson-dominion-lawsuit | access-date=February 20, 2023}}</ref>
# Dominion voting case exposes post-election fear at Fox News - [[Associated Press]]<ref name="Bauder_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last=Bauder | first=David | title=Dominion voting case exposes post-election fear at Fox News | website=[[Associated Press]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://apnews.com/article/politics-television-donald-trump-business-1a4337a89c8abd952a814c60fa269b3c | access-date=February 20, 2023}}</ref>
# Fox News feared losing viewers by airing truth about election, documents show - [[The Washington Post]]<ref name="Ellison_Farhi_Barr_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last1=Ellison | first1=Sarah | last2=Farhi | first2=Paul | last3=Barr | first3=Jeremy | title=Fox News feared losing viewers by airing truth about election, documents show | website=[[The Washington Post]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2023/02/17/fox-news-dominion-ratings-fear/ | access-date=February 20, 2023}}</ref>
# The 'wackadoodle' foundation of Fox News' election-fraud claims - [[NPR]]<ref name="Folkenflik_2/20/2023">{{cite web | last=Folkenflik | first=David | title=The 'wackadoodle' foundation of Fox News' election-fraud claims | website=[[NPR]] | date=February 20, 2023 | url=https://www.npr.org/2023/02/20/1158223099/fox-news-dominion-wackadoodle-election-fraud-claim | access-date=February 20, 2023}}</ref>
# It could take a decade to undo damage to the Republican Party caused by Fox News promoting election fraud claims, says former GOP official - [[Business Insider]]<ref name="Porter_2/20/2023">{{cite web | last=Porter | first=Tom | title=It could take a decade to undo damage to the Republican Party caused by Fox News promoting election fraud claims, says former GOP official | website=[[Business Insider]] | date=February 20, 2023 | url=https://www.businessinsider.com/undoing-fox-news-dominion-damage-gop-decade-ex-georgia-official-2023-2 | access-date=February 20, 2023}}</ref>

: and

* '''SATIRE {{;)}}''' Tucker Carlson Fears That Leaked Texts of Him Telling Truth Will Kill His Brand - [[The New Yorker]]<ref name="Borowitz_2/17/2023">{{cite web | last=Borowitz | first=Andy | title=Tucker Carlson Fears That Leaked Texts of Him Telling Truth Will Kill His Brand | website=[[The New Yorker]] | date=February 17, 2023 | url=https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/tucker-carlson-fears-that-leaked-texts-of-him-telling-truth-will-kill-his-brand | access-date=February 18, 2023}}</ref>
-->
 '''''It's too hard to maintain this list here, so I have created a subpage. Please look there for the growing list:'''''
{{User:Valjean/Sources for Dominion vs Fox News scandal}}

'''Isn't it about time we actually deprecate Fox News?'''

# This was not accidental, or "all networks make mistakes".
# This is not "misinformation", but deliberate "disinformation".
# This is, and has been for a long time, a normal "feature" of their ''modus operandi''.
# It's not a one-time thing, but an autopsy over long-standing behavior.
# It reveals their "journalists" have no moral scruples. The good ones have abandoned them.

They totally fail requirements for consideration as a RS. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 04:04, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:To me, the most alarming thing here is that Tucker Carlson [https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/16/media/fox-news-stars-executives-court-documents/index.html demanded that Jacqui Heinrich be fired for fact-checking him], and the fact that Kristin Fisher, who since left the company, [https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2023/02/16/fox-news-2020-lies-dominion-suit/ was disciplined for fact-checking Rudy Giuliani]. These are alarming because those two were supposed to be part of Fox's ''news'' side, not its talk / opinion side; and our decision to leave some parts of Fox as [[WP:MREL]] for politics rather than unreliable or fully deprecated depended entirely on the assumption that Fox maintained a divide between those two parts. These things indicate that that's not the case; if there's a general pattern of the news side being essentially run like the talk side then that's a clear reason for another RFC given that the previous one's conclusion depended on at least some editors arguing that that wasn't happening. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 04:14, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::While I'm not clamoring for another RFC just yet, I certainly agree with Aquillion's observation and Valjean's analysis. I'd be interested to hear from some of the editors who believed that status quo was a good outcome from the prior RFC (not from the "Fox is GENREL crowd" who I assume will never change their minds no matter what happens) whether this changes their mind at all. The previous RFC found a consensus that Fox News was not reliable, but did not find a consensus to pronounce it generally unreliable. In my mind, many of the arguments hinged on the idea that many news media are also unreliable (which is not an accurate or substantive argument in my view), the closer also said that there seemed to not be a general consensus of the level of standard we hold media to (or at least, what it would take to be "generally unreliable") I'm probably paraphrasing badly, but I think any new RFC should have a close read of the prior RFC's arguments and closing, and see if any of the "status quo" crowd could be persuaded before we engage in an endeavor that will likely end in a fruitless stalemate. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 04:21, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::Well, since [[WP:RS]] is about a source's overall {{tq|reputation for fact-checking and accuracy}}, the main thing to do is probably to wait a bit and see if these things impact Fox's.  Of course, I'm already on the record as saying repeatedly that I don't think Fox as a whole meets the threshold of having that reputation; but at the very least if followup coverage shows a clear decline in its overall reputation for fact-checking and accuracy among top-tier sources, then people who argue that it did meet that threshold, or came close enough to it to be [[WP:MREL]] in the case of politics, should have to explain how it continues to do so - especially if there's sustained coverage emphasizing the pressure on the ''news'' side to cover things inaccurately, coupled with evidence that the network's overall reputation for fact-checking and accuracy has been harmed as a result. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 04:49, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::::I agree, I like the wait and see approach. This story is fresh and will likely have a protracted impact as more info comes out and analysis. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 04:53, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::Another thing that comes to mind, after reading coverage a bit more: One aspect I'm seeing a lot of focus on is the idea that Fox measurably changed tactics in response to the backlash from its base after it called Arizona for Biden - that is, there was a serious, deliberate shift at the top level to reposition the news side away from straight reporting and more towards essentially backing up the things said on the opinion side, at least when it came to the election. If that proves to be a broader and longer-term shift, and coverage reflects it, it might be worth having a future RFC be for ''post-2020'' Fox coverage of politics, since this gives us a reason to think that the aftermath of the 2020 election and the backlash to Fox's news coverage there may have lead to changes that reduced its reliability. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 21:13, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::Good point. That also was mentioned last RFC. The 2020 Arizona call was offered as support for Fox's supposed quality reporting, which if that is the sea change point, therefore now a sign of the opposite. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 21:40, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:Not for nothing, but isn't basically all this does is confirm that the late night talk show hosts are not reliable, which is ''already'' the case? There's no question that there are serious factual errors with ''Hannity'', ''The Ingraham Angle'', and ''Tucker Carlson Tonight'' that render the programs unfit for citing on Wikipedia... but that's currently already what we note at [[WP:RSP]]. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">[[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">(nest)</span>]]</sub></span> 04:26, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:As stated above, most of the links provided above related to the TV talk shows (Fox News Channel), ''not'' the news website. Pertinent to for our purposes is what Aquillion lays out with the interference into the operation of the actual news portion. [[User:Curbon7|Curbon7]] ([[User talk:Curbon7|talk]]) 04:27, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:First, we should be careful about using deposition testimony where claims haven't been challenged etc to decide that the news branch isn't reliable.  This is especially true if the Dominion legal team is releasing this information in order to shape the public understanding before a trial or to push for a better settlement without a trial.  Second, as others have noted, this seems to fit what we have already said, Fox talk shows are ''<u>not</u>'' reliable. I would also ask, what problem would further moves on Fox News solve?  It's rarely cited as many editors treat it as if it's not reliable already. [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 04:52, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::{{yo|Springee}} I think you may have meant to say Fox talk shows are'''n't''' reliable. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">[[User:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">Red-tailed&nbsp;hawk</span>]]&nbsp;<sub>[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|<span style="color: white">(nest)</span>]]</sub></span> 05:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::Yes, that is what I meant.  Corrected above!  [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 05:52, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:To pile on to an already spaghetti-like thread...
:If the late hosts are already deprecated then what's to fix? The dominion complaints are against them. I hope the late night hosts for CNN, MSNBC, etc are also deprecated; those "journalists" are certainly anything but, and there are plenty of examples since 2016 (eg Russian interference, Hunter's laptop, "don't say gay" vs "parental rights in education").
:Fox News is a multi-media corporation, and the tone and quality they place at Fox New Channel and the written material at Foxnews.com are markedly different. That is to say, the Channel is pretty bad and shouldn't be used really for anything (which is apparently already the case), but, on the other hand, the articles at foxnews.com are no more or less reliable than other major news outlets, like NYT, CNN, MSNBC. They've all apparently picked a side at this point, and should be skeptically read. There's quite a few of these liberally sided media companies that get the kid gloves when it comes to reliability assessments here on wikipedia. This unfortunately affects the articles' NPOV, since verifiability is prioritized over truth and there being more liberally sided media outlets over conservatively sided gives impressions of undue weight when conservatively minded sources are cited. If the ethos of due weight is widely held opinions on the topic, then the number of media outlets is not really the point, but the proxy. The point would be those that hold that opinion. Like it or not, when it comes to politics, conservative political opinions are grossly under-represented in terms of number of media outlets. So in this regard, if any "sided" media should get kid gloves if should be conservative media, so that there can be due weight.
:I doubt I'll find any here who'd agree with that. How's about applying reliability metrics evenly and honestly in the first place? I have trouble taking a bathwater request about foxnews while the likes of CNN are cited carte blanch. A reassessment of our existing legacy media would be more appropriate. [[User:Heavy Chaos|HC]] ([[User talk:Heavy Chaos|talk]]) 23:37, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
::NYT, CNN, and MSNBC are considered generally reliable, with 0 evidence to the contrary provided, but you may start a thread on those if you wish. Currently, Fox News (the news website) for politics, is considered marginally reliable and should not be used for contentious topics. The question here was that the Dominion case has shown that Fox News is propaganda through and through, and the "not news" side exerts an influence on the "news" side. So should Fox be downgraded even further? Some say it should. Some do not. But you seem to be confusing bias or slant with reliability. Some slanted sources, like Reason magazine, or Mother Jones, are considered reliable for facts but should be attributed for opinion ([[WP:RSOPINION]]). One conservative source that is reliable is the WSJ. Fox News.com is not considered generally reliable. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 23:46, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

This sounds eerily familiar: "Fox News could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and boldly and knowingly lie about everything, and it wouldn't lose any voters, OK? It's, like, incredible." -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 04:28, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

*We already don't use Hannity or Carlson or talking heads for factual reporting, and advise caution per Fox News political reporting per [[WP:FOXNEWSPOLITICS]]. This doesn't seem to concern Fox's straight news coverage. Are we to believe that that [https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/kellie-picklers-husband-kyle-jacobs-dead-apparent-suicide-police Kyle Jacobs is NOT dead] or [https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/bruce-willis-dementia-battle-iconic-star-journey-action-hero-family-man Bruce Willis does NOT have dementia] just because Fox News reports it? Beyond jumping on the Fox News Hate Train and venting how much we despise Tucker, what more can Wikipedia do?  [[User:Animalparty|--Animalparty!]] ([[User talk:Animalparty|talk]]) 04:47, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*:That's neither here nor there because it concerns entertainment. The last RFC was constrained to science and politics. We should probably constrain any hypothetical or current discussion even further to just politics. Most Fox science content already fails MEDRS. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 04:55, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::"Most Fox science content already fails MEDRS. " This is not unique to Faux News. The current standards for MEDRS in Wikipedia requires us to avoid most popular press articles on medical topics: "The popular press is generally not a reliable source for scientific and medical information in articles. Most medical news articles fail to discuss important issues such as evidence quality, costs, and risks versus benefits, and news articles too often convey wrong or misleading information about health care." [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 07:45, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
::::Yes, I know, that's why I meant if we had an RFC to downgrade Fox we should do so only for politics, since science probably isn't much use anyway. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 19:31, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

*: {{tq|Are we to believe that that Kyle Jacobs is NOT dead or Bruce Willis does NOT have dementia just because Fox News reports it?}}
::This is a meaningless comparison, as sources that we have already deprecated also produce factual content too. That doesn't change the fact that they were deprecated for a reason, which is due to actively producing disinformation that meant they couldn't be trusted as a generality, even if they might technically produce factual content as well. [[User:Silver seren|<span style="color: silver;">Silver</span>]][[User talk:Silver seren|<span style="color: blue;">seren</span>]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]</sup> 05:42, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*Has Fox News been used for anything remotely controversial since the last RfC? If the answer is no, then our process already work and there is no need to expend the time and energy necessary to further split the hair.[[User:Slywriter|Slywriter]] ([[User talk:Slywriter|talk]]) 05:15, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

* A key word in all these reports is '''court filings'''. These are unproven claims. I know its really tempting to jump on these to use to dismiss Fox News, but we cannot use such court documents as valid source to speak of something in Wikivoice. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 14:45, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
** [[User:Masem|Masem]], the commentary from RS is about the actual evidence, the internal Fox News/Murdoch communications that reveal they knew they were pushing crazy BS. We do not need to wait for any legal judgment. We have what RS say, and they say a lot, including about how this isn't just about the talking heads we already ignore, but about how the Fox News organization operates, including the news division. They literally have no written editorial policy. They just follow Murdoch's agenda, and it has always been anti-democracy and make money by any means possible. That's the history of Murdoch and his empire.
** Fox News threatens, punishes, and fires those employees, including in the news division, who fact-check BS pushed by the news division. Complaints between each other is kept private and separate from what is revealed to the public. Open fact-checking is discouraged and punished. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 17:26, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
**:Its evidence in a court case. We cannot assume the evidence is true until it has passed through the court, where if they are true, it will be part of the court's decision. This is a requirement of how we handle information from any ongoing court case, so we absolutely have to wait until the court decides to then take the court's decision and stance on this evidence as true. I will stress that I personally think the evidence is all true, and the court case against Fox is very much falling against them, but from being a Wikipedia editor, I have to recognize that we don't presently have the appropriate filter (the final decision) to treat it as truth.
**:Besides, as Blueboar points out, even if this all proves too, this doesn't change how Fox News would be classified at RSP; we still have to use extreme caution of using Fox News non-opinion works for politics. [[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 17:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
**I don't think there is any proposal to directly use court documents to write article content about [[Fox News]] in Wikivoice. We absolutely can use evidence which does not meet RS standards to evaluate a source on RSP. -- [[User:King of Hearts|<b style="color:red">King of ♥</b>]][[User talk:King of Hearts|<b style="color:red"> ♦</b>]][[Special:Contributions/King of Hearts|<b style="color:black"> ♣</b>]][[Special:EmailUser/King of Hearts|<b style="color:black"> ♠</b>]] 07:50, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

*'''No need to change anything''' - We ''already'' say that Fox’s coverage of politics is unreliable, and we ''already'' say that opinion journalism from the likes of Hannity and Carlson is unreliable.  [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 15:11, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::To be clear, we currently list Fox's coverage of politics as yellow / [[WP:MREL]], not unreliable.  Many people, including people contributing to this discussion, have used this to argue against the removal of plainly controversial things related to politics that are cited solely to Fox, or to argue for using it in situations where it is the only source saying something. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 19:34, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::Indeed, it has come up at least a handful of times since the last RFC, such as the [[Twitter Files]] and the [[Hunter Biden laptop controversy]]. There are still those who want to use Fox News for plainly controversial political topics. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 21:44, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::Factual items reported by Fox but few others should be what then? Discarded? MREL is a reasonable place to put it, especially since liberally sided media that's arguably just as bad is rated better. [[User:Heavy Chaos|HC]] ([[User talk:Heavy Chaos|talk]]) 23:46, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
::::Do you have an example of a factual item that was carried by Fox or the likes of Daily Wire, The Blaze, Breitbart, et al, but ignored by mainstream reliable source? '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 23:52, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
:::::You quote some yourself... Twitter's liberal bias has been alleged by conservative media for a decade, and is coming to a head with the twitter files, while legacy media more or less pretends it's not happening while they rail against their once loved Musk and his Teslas. The NYP was literally blocked over the laptop story. ''Everyone'' else in the legacy media seized on it as "Russian disinformation", and now like usual more or less pretend it's not happening. The lab leak theory was also heavily censored and criticized, while conservative media explored it. And again, years later, some quiet recognition that it's possible and there maybe should be some investigations... Conservative media was on these things long before the others. The trouble with labeling the handful of semi-reliable conservative media as unreliable for "controversial" topics is that wikipedia then gets filled with the much larger number of semi-reliable liberal media outlets on these topics and almost never gets the controversy actually cataloged. This becomes a due weight problem. There should be ''more'' conservatively sided media quoted on these controversial topics, since the fact that there's a second popular opinion is exactly the reason there is a controversy in the first place. A bathwater toss for fox news will not bring better NPOV to wikipedia, but more likely the opposite. [[User:Heavy Chaos|HC]] ([[User talk:Heavy Chaos|talk]]) 00:08, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
::::::Those are examples of using controversial, politically charged topics, where Fox should definitely not be used by consensus. This applies to pretty much all of the items you just listed. So you're basically proving my point. Fox News should not be used to justify right-wing fringe conspiracy theories like the lab leak theory, the Hunter Biden conspiracy theory, or the completely lacking in substance Twitter Files story. These are all right-wing conspiracy topics that absolutely should not be covered in Wikipedia the way they are covered in Fox News. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 00:45, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

* The current consensus is that Fox talking heads on cable TV != the Fox News website, and nothing here seems to contest that. While I believe that our policy on [[WP:PARTISAN]] sources is far too forgiving, this doesn't seem like it changes anything. [[User:Thebiguglyalien|Thebiguglyalien]] ([[User talk:Thebiguglyalien|talk]]) 15:04, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::The site routinely posts primetime content without being disclosed as opinion, attributed to "Fox News Staff."[https://www.foxnews.com/media/laura-ingraham-allure-power-too-great-compassion-these-ladies][https://www.foxnews.com/media/jesse-watters-norfolk-southern-doesnt-think-east-palestine-deserves-better][https://www.foxnews.com/video/6320747336112] [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 15:52, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::I think the point was, what do WE need to change in the way how we treat Fox? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:57, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Fox News threatens, punishes, and fires those employees, including in the news division, who fact-check the news division when it pushes BS, and it does. Internal complaints are kept private and separate from what is revealed to the public. Open fact-checking is discouraged and punished. Murdoch dictates that for everyone, including the news division.

What we need to change is to make it official that Wikipedia deprecates Fox News. What we ''do'' and our policies must be in sync with each other. We need to stop giving Fox a "Trump exemption" which protects high-profile right-wing BS here. Fox is no more sacred than Trump, and we finally, after far too long, acquiesced to the overwhelming weight of RS that confirmed Trump is a pathological liar and started doing what RS did, to call him a "liar" in wikivoice. We should have, without question, right from the beginning, followed what RS said, but we didn't. Our history of giving right-wing sources a longer rope than left-wing sources is a spot on our reputation.

We need to officially stop giving them a free pass. We need to be able to point to an official position, just as we do with any other source that pushes BS. Why treat Fox differently for the same crimes as ''[[New York Post]]'', ''[[Daily Mail]]'', ''[[The Federalist (website)|The Federalist]]'', [[One America News Network|OAN]], [[Drudge Report]], [[Breitbart News]], [[Newsmax]], [[RedState]], ''[[InfoWars]]'', ''[[The Daily Wire]]'', ''[[The Daily Caller]]'', ''[[Conservative Tribune]]'', and [[Townhall]]? There is no justification for treating Fox News differently. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 17:26, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:I’m not sure how you can say we give Fox a “free pass” when we explicitly state that Fox is considered unreliable for certain topics (politics being highlighted). [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 17:47, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:: Because we deprecate other sources guilty of knowingly and consistently pushing BS. Accidental or occasional misinformation happens to all RS, but a sustained pattern of real disinformation? No, that's where we draw the line, EXCEPT for Fox News. That's so wrong. Why make an exception for Fox News? They cannot be trusted.
:: Sure, they also report accurate news, while they deliberately ignore and refuse to report on topics that go against the Murdoch/GOP/Trump agenda. They sin by omission an awful lot. Unlike other networks, Fox is Murdoch's machine, not a real news organization. It's a propaganda network. His agenda is the editorial policy, which explains why they have no written editorial policy. Murdoch instructed them to not antagonize Trump.
:: Is there really no sin bad enough to get Fox News deprecated? Do they really have to "shoot someone on 5th Avenue" and we still won't deprecate them? That's what you're telling me. How long will we completely ignore our own requirements for a RS? Tell me where your red line is located in this matter. There seems to literally be no bottom, no red line, that will cause us to ever deprecate them. Please tell me that's not true. Where is your red line? -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 18:12, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::Ah… I see, you want to see the magic word “''deprecated''”. Meh… I don’t see the need. We already say Fox should not be used for politics… that restriction is ''effectively'' deprecation where it matters. Using a magic word is pointless. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 18:26, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::::Let's be clear, the distinction is not simply semantic. Currently Fox News is considered not generally reliable and should not be used for controversial statements in politics. We haven't declared it generally unreliable and generally should not be used for any politics. In my view, a downgrade would move it from Option 2 to Option 3 for politics. That is not the same as deprecated - it would move from [[WP:MREL]] to [[WP:GUNREL]] for politics. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 18:36, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::::: Whether it's "deprecated" or just "Option 3", let's just move it down. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 18:40, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::Meh… I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.  I think the previous consensus (current statement) adequately restricts how and when to use Fox, and am content to leave it as is. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 19:15, 18 February 2023 (UTC)  
:::::::Yes, I'm of this opinion also. MREL is fine. Regarding about politics, I think there's an argument to ''up'' that placement before there's one to downgrade it. I posted above about it. [[User:Heavy Chaos|HC]] ([[User talk:Heavy Chaos|talk]]) 23:52, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
::There was a time when the network's mendacity was largely limited to its primetime hours, but in more recent years it has metastasized throughout the day, from Fox&Friends in the morning to Outnumbered in the afternoon to Jesse Watters leading into primetime. It's now pervasive and the sheer volume of it can be hard to keep up with. Fortunately there are several folks on Twitter who watch all of it and post video clips throughout the day. The network "went big" on mendacity to adopt the "say anything" Trump style and is now overwhelmingly propaganda sprinkled with some "real" news here and there, but there's copious examples of even that being poisoned with lies. The entire enterprise, including its website that reflects and amplifies its programming, simply cannot be trusted on anything. That it is the 800-pound gorilla of conservative media matters not. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 18:59, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::Are you saying we should trust random and likely ideologically motivated people on twitter to aid in making our choices?  Isn't that like using Libs of Tiktok to define the views of those on the left? [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 19:05, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
:::"is now overwhelmingly propaganda sprinkled with some "real" news here and there" That much of their political content is propaganda has been rather clear for years. But I am under the impression that their crime coverage tends towards [[sensationalism]] and [[alarmism]]. I keep coming across online articles which note that the Fox news audience is convinced that there is some kind of crime epidemic. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 08:08, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
::::You could say the same about other topics and other news sites. News sites that have a more generous wikipedia reliability rating. eg, I'd bet the CNN audience thinks thousands of unarmed black men are killed by cops annually. Including the armed and all races, it barely breaks 1000. [https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/]. Sensationalism and alarmism are the coin of the realm, they just favor different sensations and alarms. [[User:Heavy Chaos|HC]] ([[User talk:Heavy Chaos|talk]]) 23:56, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

*This is just court filings around talk shows which we deem unreliable already not much to see here. Again editors conflating the talk shows with the website. [[User:Spy-cicle|<span style='color: 4019FF;'><b>&nbsp;Spy-cicle💥&nbsp;</b></span>]] [[User talk:Spy-cicle#top|<sup><span style='color: #1e1e1e;'><b>'''''Talk'''''?</b></span></sup>]] 19:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*:Well, it’s not just the talk shows if the talk show hosts got a news division reporter fired for fact checking their narrative. The current rating for Fox News (politics and science) is “reliability unclear”. Is it really still unclear after all the resignations, revelations, books, etc.? Also, it appears some editors believe the website is the same as the news division. But, it looks more like the talk shows with attacks against one party for years. Last time this came up, I asked for the names of the people considered in the news division and don’t  think I got an answer. I can’t find this on Google as I keep getting Hanity, Carlson, etc. Who are the people that are considered green at RS/PS? [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 20:02, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::I would list [[Bret Baier]] as probably the most prominent name in their news division. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 13:38, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::: [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]], I agree. NPR wrote this:
*::::: "On Nov. 5, 2020, just days after the election, Bret Baier, the network's chief political anchor texted a friend: "[T]here is NO evidence of fraud. None. Allegations - stories. Twitter. Bulls---."<ref name="Folkenflik_2/16/2023">{{cite web | last=Folkenflik | first=David | title=Off the air, Fox News stars blasted the election fraud claims they peddled | website=[[NPR]] | date=February 16, 2023 | url=https://www.npr.org/2023/02/16/1157558299/fox-news-stars-false-claims-trump-election-2020 | access-date=February 19, 2023}}</ref>
*:::: and we have this:
*::::: [https://www.thewrap.com/bret-baier-chris-wallace-fox-news-complained/ Bret Baier and Chris Wallace Complained to Fox News Heads About Tucker Carlson Capitol Riot Special (Report)]
*:::: Good for them, but even as news anchors, they were not allowed to publicly express such views. Wallace is now at CNN. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 19:59, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::::Objective3000 asked for the name of someone in the News Division, I gave one of the more prominent ones.  More to the point, Baier is someone at Fox who does not engage in the sort of crap complained about in the lawsuit. I would consider Baier’s reporting very reliable. If you think otherwise, please explain why? [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 22:14, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::::: [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]], I agree. He's good. Unfortunately, he's not the only one there, and the corporation mixes the opinion and news stuff in deceptive ways ALL THE TIME, and when good people like Baier object, they get told to keep their opinions off-air or they get in trouble.
*:::::: They can tell the truth about non-GOP, non-Trump, non-COVID, non-vaccines, non-climate change, topics ''ad libitum'', ''add nauseum'', so that really means we have no use for them and should tell editors and the world we can't trust them to tell the truth all the time, and can't trust them to tell the truth when it's against their fringe right-wing political agenda and their anti-science agenda. There is no justification for not downgrading their status. If we don't deprecate them, we should upgrade Daily Mail and some other deprecated sites that are better than Fox News. Fox's popularity makes it a dangerous site. I don't think we should do that, so I still think we're violating our own policies and sending a horrible message to the world by not deprecating them, especially in light of all these solid revelations.
*:::::: The world looks to Wikipedia, and our quibbling here is visible and will be compared to the internal quibblings by the Fox News people, and those who refuse to deprecate will end up looking like Hannity and Carlson, who refused to tell the truth. We know that editors end up getting named in the press. I got hung out by Breitbart as a "Russiagate truther" because I still think Russia interfered in the 2016 elections. (I'll take that as a badge of honor, considering it's from Breitbart!) -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 00:48, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
*::Did they actually get anyone on the news side fired or did they just talk about it between a few hosts?  This is one of the big issues with internal coms like this.  Things said in the context of anger/frustration can be presented as carefully laid plans by an opposing party.  So far it looks like the news side did what we would want it to do.  It reported the facts even though it didn't align with the talk shows. [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 20:20, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::They attempted to get her fired calling Suzanne Scott, the network’s chief executive. Instead, the post she made factchecking Trump was deleted. That is they did not report the facts that didn't align with the talk shows. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 20:52, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*::The top story on the site right now is [[Ronny Jackson]], a hardcore Trump supporter, alleging a coverup in Biden's health report.[https://www.foxnews.com/politics/former-wh-doctor-trump-obama-blasts-alarming-biden-health-report-cover-needs-end]] Is that news, or conspiracy theorizing? Anyone ever taken a look at Jackson's twitter feed? Whoo-boy. This is typical of the site. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 20:41, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*:[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReliable_sources%2FNoticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=1140125780&diffmode=source] [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 20:29, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
*::That is a link to a previous post of yours.  How is that meant to be interpreted in context of Spy-cicle's comments? [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 20:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

:"Fox News Knew It Was A Lie". Yes. And we knew they knew. That's why they're considered unreliable for politics. Nothing changed here. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 21:20, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::It's interesting how many people claim Fox News is already considered unreliable, full stop, for politics. However, the close of the last RFC found it was marginally reliable and should not be used as a high-quality source for controversial claims. Which is one notch more reliable than generally unreliable. If we think it is generally unreliable, we should write that and reflect that. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 21:42, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
::: Bingo! Sadly, above I asked [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]]: 
:::: "Is there really no sin bad enough to get Fox News deprecated? ... Tell me where your red line is located in this matter. There seems to literally be no bottom, no red line, that will cause us to ever deprecate them. Please tell me that's not true. Where is your red line?"
::: Still no answer. Our policy on how we define a RS should be enough, but it's being ignored when it comes to Fox News. They are Teflon. Sad. I want an answer from Blueboar: "Where is your red line, since deliberate disinformation isn't enough?" -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 00:03, 19 February 2023 (UTC) 
::::I don’t actually HAVE a “red line”. I have never liked the concept of “deprecation”, because I strongly believe in judging sources on a citation by citation context. And even the “worst” sources can be reliable in specific contexts… Just as the “best” sources can be unreliable in specific contexts. To judge whether a source is reliable, you need to examine the specific statement we are attempting to verify ''with'' that source, and ask whether the source is reliable in that specific context. The more extraordinary the statement, the more extraordinarily reliable the source must be. 
::::I agree that Fox does not rate as an “extraordinary” source (and even that it is a “poor” source)… and so 100% agree with saying it should not be used for verifying extraordinary claims (and the claims about election fraud in 2020 certainly qualify as extraordinary).  But then, that is a criticism I think is true for ALL media outlets. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 01:22, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
*What this comes down to is that there is a network that calls itself a “news network” watched by hundreds of millions of people worldwide that allows, and apparently pushes, outright falsehoods to be published saying that United States elections are a fraud, Covid restrictions are a fraud, etc. – and we allow it to be used as a source. Folks, drop any biases you may have and remember that this is an encyclopedia. There are so many sources that have proved their ability to correct errors, use multiple sources, gain Pulitzers for exposing problems on both sides of any aisle. Let us use them and not bother with (and give credence to) a corporation whose management allows (at the least) lies and misinformation -- misinformation that dangers democracy and health (among other problems). What do we lose by reducing the rating of a dangerous source when there exist so many that have proved their worth over a very long time? And please, let us stop this claim that all media sources do what Fox does. There is no evidence that anything this dramatic is occurring in what we call RS.. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 01:43, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Here's a Fox "News" story. What's the first thing readers see? A [[Jesse Watters]] clip.[https://www.foxnews.com/media/pentagon-equity-chief-praises-book-calling-911-first-responders-menaces-pushes-revolution] And in this "news" story? [[Laura Ingraham]][https://www.foxnews.com/media/professor-white-people-become-less-damaging-dismantle-whiteness]. And here's another "news" story entitled "Black Lives Matter at School Week of Action kicks off for thousands of U.S. schools." Sounds reasonable, right? But what do readers see first? A Tucker Carlson clip with guest [[Candace Owens]] calling BLM a scam.[https://www.foxnews.com/politics/black-lives-matter-school-week-action-kicks-off-thousands-u-s-schools] And here's [[Paul Gigot]] and [[Kim Strassel]] et al. of the WSJ editorial board in a "news" story.[https://www.foxnews.com/media/florida-democrat-agrees-desantis-ap-african-american-history-course-i-think-its-trash]. And Hannity with a "news" story.[https://www.foxnews.com/media/sean-hannity-need-answers-biden-china] It just goes on and on. See how they insidiously inject their opinion programming into their "news" site? It's baked in. By contrast, at minimum MSNBC shows in their URLs that their stories are from opinion shows, and typically displays that on the page or notes it's an opinion piece. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 03:21, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

:It is completely inappropriate to consider what the website version delievers, particularly when the labeling of the video is clear it is not related to the story given by the headline.  It's why when evaluating reliability we ignore everything like the headline itself, ads, etc - all that matters is the copy of the article text. They are not the only website that forces video on the reader, and while most other websites usually include video of the story that the article talks about, they have other content in that video block carosel (eg: like at CBS News [https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/workplace-schedules-colorado-bill-mandating-state-lawmakers-consider-fair-workweek/]).  BTW, Fox News absolutely does delineate opinion from news pieces in terms of what they present at text. There are other sources like the AP that does not do this.
:Remember that '''every media source''' is fighting for viewers and drawing readers to their site. Some are more ethical about that, but every bit of trying to grab viewership draw rather than focusing on the news weakens the site's integrity. [[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 03:51, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

::{{tq|It is completely inappropriate to consider what the website version delievers}} I don't understand, we're talking about links to the site that some editors want to use as references here
::{{tq|particularly when the labeling of the video is clear it is not related to the story given by the headline}} There is no video labeling. Readers click the story and are presented a video that is ostensibly "the news," but actually it's the view of a mendacious polemicist. Many people (particularly since 54% of American adults cannot read to a 6th grade level) will likely watch the 2-minute clip rather than read the article, and walk away thinking they got "the news." But they haven't, they've been fed partisan opinion. By contrast, when CNN includes a clip in a story, it's from a straight-up ''newscast'' that conforms with the more extensive text reporting beneath it.
::{{tq|all that matters is the copy of the article text}} Oftentimes on its front page CNN shows headlines with a little "play" icon, denoting a video news report with just a short caption, not a text story. If an editor were to write "CNN reported..." would it be impermissible to use that source because it's not text?
::{{tq|while most other websites usually include video of the story that the article talks about}} I can't think of another ''news'' site that uses clips other than a news clip to accompany the article text. Fox News commonly presents opinion clips, without disclosure.
::{{tq|AP that does not do this}} I'm not aware AP publishes opinion pieces that writers submit, but if they do I suspect those opeds would be clearly labeled as such.
::{{tq|Fox News absolutely does delineate opinion from news pieces in terms of what they present at text}} As text, perhaps. But not holistically, including their video content, as I've demonstrated, and CNN doesn't do what Fox does, where readers click a story to what might be legitimate news and instead get Tucker Carlson. This is not by accident, it's by design, and if legitimate news outlets also do it, I haven't seen it. It's a devious practice that Fox News uses to insinuate its editorial stance into everything their audience sees on the network, and its site. This might be imperceptible to some who are not paying close attention. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 16:16, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
:::The Fox videos have a bolt title and a brief description immediately below the video, impossible to miss. That's the labeling.
:::See [[#opinion pieces published by the AP?]] for the recent determination that AP offers unlabeled opinion pieces.
:::And I stress that we do not focus on the embellishments in the web presentation of a prose story. Videos, ads, pictures, interactive features, etc. Not just for Fox News but for all media website. 
:::Now I can fully accept the "by design" argument that Fox News wants to push certain content, that's obvious, but ''every news website'' is also playing the drawing of eyes to keep viewers on their pages. Maybe not to the same degree as Fox, and not to their opinion pieces, but they do the same thing of trying to distract you from wanting to leave their website. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 16:25, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
::::What I meant by label was disclosure as opinion, not content summary. There is no disclosure.
::::Wow, AP published an oped, I'll be damned. How common is that?
::::{{tq|we do not focus on the embellishments}} but does that mean the CNN scenario I described is impermissible?
::::There is a big difference between engagement/retention and systematically insinuating opinions into news. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 16:47, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

:The fact that some Fox News articles also have clips of opinion programming says ''nothing'' about the reliability of the underlying article, and as long as we are citing only article content, not the talking head video, then the only reason to complain about the source is moral panic about "what if viewers are exposed to bad opinions?" It's like wanting to deprecate ''[[Playboy]]'' (which is GREL) because people clicking a link to an interview might see nudity. Sources [[WP:OFFLINE|sources don't even need to be online to be reliable]]. We could cite a Fox News article without including a convenience link, or a rare undigitized academic library book that happens to be shelved next to a copy of ''[[Mein Kampf]]'', without affecting reliability at all. [[User:Animalparty|--Animalparty!]] ([[User talk:Animalparty|talk]]) 05:05, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' I find myself in agreement with Aquillion and Andrevan's concerns. I would not prefer an immediate RfC for total deprecation but we ought to keep a close watch at this news-cycle. [[User:TrangaBellam|TrangaBellam]] ([[User talk:TrangaBellam|talk]]) 18:20, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Keep in mind that Fox News is still refusing to cover this scandal. We do need an article about it: [[Fox News "voter fraud" scandal]]. When this Dominion trial is finished, we can do this better, but there is already enough RS coverage to start the article.

The mark of a RS news agency or other news source is not that they never make mistakes, but that they immediately correct and apologize. Fox News, RIGHT NOW!!!, is refusing to do this. They would lose face too much with their Trump base. They tied their news and opinion sides together with Trump as the only guiding light, and down the rabbit hole the whole Fox News enterprise went. Now they can't admit it publicly to their viewers without it being such a major catastrophe that they fear sinking their own ship. So they are doing what they have always done, hiding the inconvenient facts from their viewers, because Trump has told them that all other sources are fake news. Those viewers will continue thinking that "all this mainstream talk about Fox News hosts thinking Trump was lying about the election" is just fake news.

In the face of all this, Wikipedia still refuses to deprecate or downgrade them, even though, on much flimsier grounds, we deprecated The Daily Mail for far less serious offenses. We should upgrade The Daily Mail (only a tiny bit) and deprecate Fox News. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 20:10, 19 February 2023 (UTC)


:Why wouldn't Fox cover this story?  They are being sued over the core of this story.  One of the things any competent legal team will tell their client before a trial is make no public statements.  Covering this content would be exactly that.  It would totally ignore the reality of the legal issues to expect Fox to cover claims that they libeled Dominion before the trial.  That is akin to saying, "if the suspect is innocent, why doesn't he take the stand and say so?" [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 21:22, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
:: Oh snap! [[User:Springee|Springee]], you make a good point. What a pickle, not that they would apologize even if not being sued, but we can't know. What we know is that their listeners will continue to believe what has been reported, and even though Fox will likely not dare continue to repeat "stolen election" lies, they will not be able to correct the record. Fox viewers will continue in their delusional bubble and refuse to believe what all other sources are reporting. What a situation! That guarantees Fox News continues to remain an unreliable source that should be deprecated. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 01:03, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
:The impression I had from the last RFC is that some people who actually agree Fox News is unreliable believe that it helps Wikipedia to appear as less biased to have Fox News be listed as yellow and marginally reliable. Because even though Fox News is generally unreliable for politics and most people proceed as though this is the case in almost every case, they don't want to hear the screams of the drive-by trolls lamenting Fox News' "unfairly" maligned status. Because these people are thinking with their emotions and not with logic, so we can't reason with them. So, we take the tiny tiny sliver of cases where Fox News is reporting on some information that no other source has the very same information, and they extrapolate that to the idea that the reliability of Fox News for politics is unclear, given that occasionally, Fox News does publish accurate and mundane information about politics. When in reality the reliability of Fox News for politics is listed as unclear. It's generally unreliable, a category that prohibits mundane use but there are still plenty of exceptions where use might be allowed. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 21:35, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
::Can you point to any specific examples of that?  I don't recall that but I also wasn't really looking for it. [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 21:39, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
:::I have a few comments in mind but I'd rather not ping them to the discussion because I suspect it would be unwelcome. If they show up on their own later I will be happy to discuss that. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 21:51, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
::::As I recall there were something like 100+ respondents.  If we are talking about one or two replies I'm not sure that means much compared to the larger consensus.  [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 21:53, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

NPR wrote this:
{{blockquote|
On Jan. 5, 2021, the day before Congress was to ceremonially affirm Biden's win, and an angry pro-Trump mob sacked the U.S. Capitol to prevent it, Rupert Murdoch forwarded a suggestion to Fox News CEO Scott. He recommended that the Fox prime time stars - Carlson, Hannity and Ingraham - acknowledge Trump's loss. "Would go a long way to stop the Trump myth that the election was stolen," he wrote. They did not do so. "We need to be careful about using the shows and pissing off the viewers," Scott said to a colleague.<ref name="Folkenflik_2/16/2023">{{cite web | last=Folkenflik | first=David | title=Off the air, Fox News stars blasted the election fraud claims they peddled | website=[[NPR]] | date=February 16, 2023 | url=https://www.npr.org/2023/02/16/1157558299/fox-news-stars-false-claims-trump-election-2020 | access-date=February 19, 2023}}</ref>}}
Even Murdoch can't get them to publicly admit their failure. At that time, the "stolen election" conspiracy theory was still in somewhat of its infancy (not really...) but just think of how much Fox News has added to the size of that lie since then? Wow! Now they have added to their complicity so much more. In Japan, these people would have been called into the corporate headquarters, forced to kneel in a row, been handed knives, and committed [[hara-kiri]]. Seriously.

Of course, Wikipedia still supports Fox News. We are sending a signal to the world, a really bad signal. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 20:17, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

*'''Wait''' - We should wait until either the case goes to trial and a ruling is made (in which the facts of the case will be laid out), or until this is widely verified by other RS (preferably some right-leaning ones). Until then, it could be argued that we are doing [[WP:SYNTH]] by using deposition testimony and discovery evidence ([[WP:PRIMARY]]) to make conclusions. If we let the conclusions be made for us, we're in the clear. All that said, this is bordering on [[WP:BLUE]] given that some of the evidence is verbatim text messages and emails. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''<span style="color:#8b00ff;">Eve</span><span style="color:#6528c2;">rgr</span><span style="color:#3f5184;">een</span><span style="color:#197947;">Fir</span>''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] 20:22, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
** No one is proposing we perform OR or use primary sources. See that long list of what we call "reliable sources" above? We are actually allowed to use them to create content here! What an amazing idea. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 20:24, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
**:It is 100% OR because it is only evidence in a ongoing case. No matter how much RSes write about it, it has not been validated under a court of law as being valid and/or truthful. 
**:Is it likely truthful? Heck yes, but we cannot jump to conclusions like this. [[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 20:33, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
**::Reliable sources are what we're all about, not jury decisions. Sometimes juries convict innocent men. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 20:44, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
**:::We '''absolutely do not''' rely on reliable sources for the determination of legal matters like the Dominion VS lawsuit that this evidence was submitted for. Only the courts can make that determination. [[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 20:48, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
**::::Is that codified in PAGs? [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 22:29, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
**:::::For BLPs, it is definitely codified at BLPCRIME. "Innocent until proven guilty" should obviously extend to organizations as well. Unless the court decides what guilt is there and if any Fox individuals were complicit in it, we should be very wary of treating evidence provided by one side of the case as factually true, even though we probably all agree it is actually true. That's why we have trials so that the deeper truth can be determined. Perhaps this was all machinations of one person at Fox rather than the organization as a whole. [[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 16:42, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
**::::::This isn't about guilt, it's about evidence that has been reported by numerous solid RS. Imagine the consequences for Dominion attorneys if they filed false documents with a court. Disbarment, careers over. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 16:57, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
**:::::::The RSes are reporting on the evidence, they have no legal insight to whether the evidence is legit or not or appropriate for the court. Its why, at least in the more prestigious RSes, they state that all these are alleged claims. The RSes are of course coming to their own conclusions as to what it all means, but they have no legal authority here, and we absolutely cannot take their assessment as the legal truth, no matter how many RSes claim it. That's the "innocent until proven guilty" we have to abide by.
**:::::::And it is not necessarily that the evidence may be false, but it also may not paint a full picture. For example, wholly separate, when Elon released the "Twitter Files", it was all "evidence" that pointed to Democratic interference, but as has been reported later, there's a fair number of Republican cases that happened as well, so what the Twitter Files was was not the whole story. Similarly, the legal council for Dominion has likely put together a package of files that strongly backs the defamation claims, but Fox may have additional evidence that creates a different picture that may point away from defamation. That type of action by Dominion's lawyers is not a violation of any legal code.  (Keep in mind, I strongly believe Fox is guilty of defamation and intentional malice here, but I can't take it as fact until the case is resolved). [[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 17:07, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
**::::::::The potential legal consequences are irrelevant. The fact the communications have been publicly released and widely reported by RS is all ''we'' should be concerned with. Others in the press can speculate on what the legal implications might be, but that's not in our purview. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 17:13, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
**:::::::::Our purview is to be neutral, impartial, and dispassionate. Editing based on "innocent until proven guilty" is absolutely key to this. I know that the evidence is very damning against Fox and suggests more action on RSP should be taken, but that would be violating our neutrality policy to jump on that before the legal matters are resolved. [[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 17:22, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
**:::::::::Are you arguing weight for inclusion in the Fox News article or if we should use this information to judge their reliability?  If you want to suggest this is DUE in the article then all the coverage basically makes this a slam dunk for inclusion.  However, if you are arguing this proves the news desk can't be trusted, then we need to ask why Dominion is releasing this before trial.  Ask how does it benefit them to release it if, in theory, the jurors are going to only evaluate what is shown in court?  Would Dominion have motive to release things in a way that makes it look worse than it really is?  Would they have motive to hold back and exculpatory messages etc?  If yes, then we aren't in a hurry.  We can see how this plays out.  Other than the satisfaction if sticking it to a disliked source, how does this help wikipedia?  [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 18:38, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
**::::::lolwhat. Trying to apply BLPCRIME here is an incredibly unserious claim - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 18:25, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
**:::::::It's perfectly reasonable. Please see my example where the Grimshaw legal team presented information that was damaging to Ford Mo Co in a way to shape public opinion.  Only much later did we see that what the public was presented was misleading.  [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 18:34, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
**::::::::Corporations aren't living people. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 18:39, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::: I would say this tangent is embarrassing. Anything about legal cases, guilt, and results are pretty much off-topic here. Lest I be misunderstood, of course BLPCrime is important, but not here. No one is discussing (except for Masem) the case itself or questions of guilt. We are discussing what secondary independent RS say about the revelations coming out about Fox News internal discussions and views demonstrating their deliberate malfeasance and refusal to allow fact-checking their lies. THAT's the topic, so don't muddy the waters. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 18:42, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::From a legal and logical standpoint, the RSes are only reporting on 1) past events that were visible from outside Fox News and 2) the evidence provided by Dominion's legal counsel to support Dominion's case. They do not have the full picture as they are missing the evidence Fox News will use to defend itself. As such, whatever the RSes are reporting right now is their speculation, definitely not fact that we can state in Wikivoice. It doesn't matter how reliable these sources are, they are not the judicial branch and what claims they make cannot be taken as facts.
*:::::::::::I realize that nearly everything from the past that's been known before this point, and with the evidence given, that there is likely no way that Fox will be found to be complicit in propagating the false narrative and will be liable for the defamation charges they face, and thus my complaint may be prolonging the inevitable facts we can state. But this type of nuance is a core part of NPOV and NOR that we must hold to, despite the weight of evidence that suggests otherwise. This is basically, like, saying that Arbcom took up a case against editor X, where dozens of editors all provide evidence that X is wrong, and pre-stating that X must be guilty before Arbcom actually issues its decision about X. Let's wait to see what the whole picture is based on the legal case, from which we then can evaluate.
*:::::::::::And I stress what has been pointed out before: what does this change about how Fox is already handled on RSP? it's already a highly questionable source for politics (from its news side), and its talk show content already disallowed. [[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 19:34, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::::::{{tq|whatever the RSes are reporting right now is their speculation}} is incorrect, but {{tq|there is likely no way that Fox will be found to be complicit in propagating the false narrative and will be liable for the defamation charges}} is speculative. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 20:22, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::: [[User:Masem|Masem]], you again write {{tq|"what does this change about how Fox is already handled on RSP?"}} It makes a big difference. Right now we have no official deprecation. Instead, we rely on an unofficial ''ad hoc'' way of dealing with it, understood only by experienced editors, each time someone wants to use Fox News. The burden is on the editors involved, without them having the recourse of pointing to an official community consensus. The individual editors have to take the full brunt of accusations here at Wikipedia, and outside, for making such decisions. I paid such a price for opposing Breitbart here by having Breitbart feature me as a "Russiagate truther" for believing that Russia did interfere in the elections. What we do here gets noticed. We just know that we cannot trust Fox News when they speak, and we can trust that when they are silent it is usually for political reasons. It is a propaganda organization, not a true news organization, so we should officially classify it as such. Knowing this, yet not acting, is negligence and tacit protection. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 22:25, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::::Just because novice editors may get Fox News's usage wrong should not mean we need to rush any change prior to the decision of the court case (again, the statement "Fox News is a propaganda organization" is a non-legal conclusion that we can't use, we need the court's evaluation the evidence.)  If anything, I would suspect the bulk of those editors are not here to start to build an encyclodedia and instead want to counter the left bias that we naturally have from the result of our known RSes. You're throwing out the baby with the bathwater, though this is likely still a case that once the courts legally issue their ruling, we'll want the baby thrown out too. 
*:::::::::::::Here's the problem which this and the Breitbart shows - we have be reactive and follow events, not try to be proactive. If you expressed belief re Russian interference before it was proven out by other sources in order to change P&G or mainspace, that's a problem.  This is not a problem limited to you or Fox News, but far too pervasive throughout WP; that editors strongly for or against certain topics too often lose the necessary perspective we expect of all editors to prevent disruption (The current ArbCom case is yet another example). It is 100% fair to peg Fox News as a developing problem in light of the provided court evidence, but until we know the conclusion of that story, acting on it is rushing matters.  I've said before that I may poking on nuances here and delaying what will ultimately happen, but we need these processes more than ever to isolate us from the growing cultural war, and react instead of predict. [[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 03:31, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::::::::This thread is primarily about using Fox as a reliable source -- not stating in the Fox article in WikiVoice that Fox is crap. If a source is questionable, we shouldn't use it. There are plenty of other sources. If the only source for something is questionable, then what it says is questionable and we should wait instead of using  a questionable source. We are an encyclopedia, not a new aggregator. Time is on our side. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 11:49, 22 February 2023 (UTC).
*:::::::::::::::The thing is, while Fox’s reporting on the 2020 election and it’s aftermath is questionable, a lot of its other reporting is not questionable at all. This is why “other considerations apply”. We need to look at the specific information being verified by citing a Fox report, and ask “is Fox reliably reporting this specific information”?  I am fine with saying “Don’t cite Fox for information relating to the 2020 election and its aftermath”… I am ''not'' fine with saying “Don’t cite Fox for anything”. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 12:36, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::::::::::Doesn't that mean, in practice, that you have to check a Fox source against other, more reliable sources, and only use Fox if it agrees with them? Then, what do we need it for, if we have better sources? --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 17:16, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::::::::::: Bingo! Since we can't trust it, even on basic matters, we only know by checking actually RS that don't deliberately push fake news for ratings. We do not need Fox News. Period. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 17:20, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::::::::::::::I think we CAN trust it on basic matters… it’s ''specific'' matters where we can’t trust it. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 17:29, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
*::::For those who are digging into this material, ask who released it and why?  Who does the release of this material benefit?  Was it released with the other side being given a chance to argue about the content?  Do we know if the releases were full and complete or selective?  One of the very successful strategies the plaintiffs did in the infamous Ford Pinto lawsuit ([[Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co.]]) was release a memo which was in reality a response to the government, using government provided numbers and framework trying to assess the cost vs benefit of new rollover protection standards.  Since Ford could provide a good estimate on the vehicle cost side of things they were doing that.  However, the Grimshaw legal team successfully convinced the public that the memo was proof that Ford didn't care about lives and calculated it was cheaper to pay off the dead vs pay for safety in the cars[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#NHTSA_investigation].  It was a totally false narrative but thanks to Mother Jones it stuck.  When one side or the other releases a bunch of evidence we need to ask, is it because it helps them make better arguments in court?  No, it's because they are hoping to taint the jury pool.  Even if we take the evidence at face value all it's doing is verifying what we already have concluded. [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 21:31, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::::Obviously we cannot foresee the result of a trial. So, we cannot say they are guilty of anything. We most certainly can make our own determinizations of the reliability of a source and we can use RS for that purpose without the help of the legal system. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 22:28, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Fox is biased in my mind, but can be used for simple fact verification; airplane xyz crashes on xyz date. Beyond this, they tend to spin a story so it suits a certain narrative. [[User:Oaktree b|Oaktree b]] ([[User talk:Oaktree b|talk]]) 02:24, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

When Fox executives referred to their "brand" being damaged (they did it in many ways), they are saying it in the context of "Our brand is WE DELIBERATELY LIE ABOUT ELECTIONS and don't dare stop!" Seriously, read the sources and see what Fox executives said about their "brand" and especially ''when'' they said it. You can't make this stuff up. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 03:43, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
:The older editors all see the trajectory FOX is on. The question for you is, and please take your time to think about it, where should this source be categorized as a result? That's what I think was missing from your original post, and that would help some of us see your intent more clearly. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 03:53, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
:: [[User:Darknipples|DN]], as an older editor I have indeed watched this. Before Trump, Fox was just a popular purveyor of normal right-wing stuff, back when the most left-leaning members of the GOP actually straddled the center and had a lot in common with the most right-leaning Democrats. Trump came along and radicalized the whole right, and Fox with it. (see [[Overton window]]) Then Fox discovered that Trump, as a fighter, would really boost their ratings if they were loyal to him. That pushed them, and the GOP, into a far-right position and the favored position as nearly the only source trusted by Republicans. We see the consequences of that. Now there are very few Republicans between Trump and the center, and it's a huge gap. The Democrats, OTOH, haven't really moved very much toward the left, at least nothing like the move by the GOP. Many Dems still straddle the center..
:: In the light of all the latest revelations, that things are much worse than we realized (they actually deliberately and constantly lied, as a ''de facto'' operational policy, to everyone, and punished any employee who resisted or fact-checked), I have already expressed my wish for a formal deprecation. They are arguably worse than The Daily Mail. They fail our standards for a RS. Not only no fact-checking, but refusal to allow it. No correction when their false reporting was constantly criticized. Until they completely crucify Trump and all of his lies, especially his "stolen election" Big Lie, they won't be in the same universe as what we require of a RS. Every day we delay this deprecation is a day we signal to the world that Wikipedia sides with Trump's lies, and editors who resist, risk getting named and excoriated in mainstream articles by the journalists who watch what we are doing here. We are being super inconsistent by extending the common Trump exemption to Fox News. They should not enjoy any form of protected status here. Treat them as we'd do any other source guilty of the same things they are doing. BTW, you are now a [[Wikipedia:Service_awards#Yeoman_Editor_.28or_Grognard_Extraordinaire.29|Yeoman Editor]]! -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 16:35, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

* '''Fox News are innocent. Innocent, I tell you!''' And there's nothing you can say or do that'll change my mind!<!-- Except maybe find a transcript of Tucker Carlson admitting it was him on the [[Grassy Knoll]] all along, but other than that... --> [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 19:33, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
*:Appears to be an illustration of a goodly part of the problem. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 22:52, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
* '''No need to change anything''' 1. Court filings are not a matter of law and should not be treated as absolute. 2. It has already been established that specific opinions of some of their hosts such as Carlson, Hannity, etc. are not considered reliable to Wiki. [[User:Grahaml35|Grahaml35]] ([[User talk:Grahaml35|talk]]) 20:16, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
A good summary:
{{quotebox|Fox News is in no meaningful sense a news organization. Just for starters, engaging in a journalistic race to the bottom with an outlet like Newsmax—a wall-to-wall dreamscape of MAGA fabulation now fending off its own Dominion defamation suit—is something any remotely legitimate news-gathering operation should automatically lose by definition.<ref name="Lehmann_2/20/2023">{{cite web | last=Lehmann | first=Chris | title=The Internal Decapitation of Fox News | website=[[The Nation]] | date=February 20, 2023 | url=https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/fox-news-dominion/ | access-date=February 20, 2023}}</ref>}}
It is not a "legitimate news-gathering operation". -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 22:44, 20 February 2023‎ (UTC)
* '''No need to change anything and close this thread''' Not this again. Wasn't there a giant RSN RFC recently that already beat this dead horse? Fox News talk shows are '''already deprecated''': [[WP:RSP#Fox_News_(talk_shows)]] and its [[WP:FOXNEWSPOLITICS|other political reporting]] is [[WP:MREL]] with significant caveats and restrictions.  Honestly, I think this thread should be closed per [[WP:NOTFORUM]], since is turning out to be little more than an opportunity to gripe about a shared dislike in a pseudo-RSN-RFC format (headed with the traditional set of options, except they're all "yes"). The last RFC covered this ground and ended, lets give it a rest. [[User:GretLomborg|GretLomborg]] ([[User talk:GretLomborg|talk]]) 22:42, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
*:OK, I will ask this for the fourth time. Who are the Fox News non talk shows hosts that haven't resigned? Out of 24 hours a day, how much time do they take? I look at their website and it reads like a propaganda site. And reread [[WP:AGF]]. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 23:06, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
*: [[User:GretLomborg|GretLomborg]], this is a totally new situation. I'm going to just AGF that you are ignorant of recent events that cast Fox News in a totally new light. The RS are abundant. Look above. I have collected 47 RS now.
:: Fox News knew their election coverage was totally false, yet, to keep their audience from fleeing to far-right sources like OANN and NewsMax, and to keep Trump's favor and their ratings up, they chose to lie about it all. They continued to push election lies for over two years, and now it's all blown up in their face with all their internal communications telling the true story.
:: This is not about just the talking heads. '''It's also about the news division.''' So this thread is based on a totally new set of evidence. Literal fake news and deliberate disinformation. Internal fact-checkers were threatened into silence. They totally fail all we consider to be a RS. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 23:08, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
::: {{tq|The RS are abundant. Look above. I have collected 47 RS now.}}... about "Fox News hosts," "Fox News stars," "Tucker Carlson," etc... - [[User:GretLomborg|GretLomborg]] ([[User talk:GretLomborg|talk]]) 23:27, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
:::: Sigh. READ them, not just the headlines. This affected the news division. They were not allowed to contradict what Carlson, Hannity, ''et al'' were saying. Fact-checkers were threatened. The top executives and CEO knew, and their decisions applied to the news division. Read the sources. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 23:55, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
::::: I did read a few, and I remain unconvinced that there needs to be any change in the status quo. Those articles are almost exclusively focused on what the '''already deprecated''' opinion show hosts beleived. They also tend to be a little sloppy and not make the distinction we make (between the news and opinion divisions), sloppyness which is very unhelpful here. The little that is there about the news division, while not great, is also not grounds for depricating the news division. It's totally fine for a reliable source not cover some true news to the degree desired by some Wikipedia editor or even omit it completely, especially since there's no way to cite the ''absence'' of a story on here in an article. The line is more or less "publishes false or fabricated information," and even that can (''and is'') tolerated for sources where a line can be drawn in such a way to salvage reliable reporting in other areas (like the line here around the opinion hosts). Then there's the separate issues that the structure of this discussion is so flawed that there is ''no way'' for it to reach valid result, ''and'' there there was already a massive better-structured discussion about these same issues where the admin-closer clearly discouraged repeats without a clear on-wiki motivation (which this discussion also seems to lack), because of the waste of limited governance capacity they entail. Let's stop beating this dead horse. [[User:GretLomborg|GretLomborg]] ([[User talk:GretLomborg|talk]]) 05:25, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

::::What is now plainly evident that was not previously has less to do with what Murdoch, Scott and the news division ''did'' than what they ''didn't do'': they didn't push back against any of lies the hosts were knowingly peddling. Nary a word to report The Big Lie everyone else was reporting. Bret Baier, ostensibly the "real journalist" at the network, said privately there was no evidence of election fraud, ''but did he report that?'' The silence of the news division is just as damning as if it was actively promulgating the Big Lie and makes clear it is not a news organization and should not be treated as one here. If "sometimes Fox reports real news," then surely editors can find sources other than Fox to use here. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 23:57, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::I agree with what soibangla, Valjean, and O3000 have written, but I am not surprised to see some editors who aren't interested in ''any'' evidence that would show Fox doesn't report it fair and balanced, even enough to be ''marginally'' reliable. Even though this is an example of Fox blatantly falsifying information and toeing the party line. That is not enough to persuade people who already have made up their minds and don't ''have'' a red line. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 03:26, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
*All of which simply reinforces that Fox is not reliable when it comes to the 2020 Election and its aftermath. I think we all agree on that. I don’t think anyone is arguing that they are reliable on that topic. ''However'', there is no evidence that they fabricated their news coverage of other stories.  Seriously, I challenge you to look through their news coverage over the last week (or even month), and tell me where they fabricated the story. 
:Sure, there are other reliable outlets that cover these stories, and yes we could use them instead (I have no problem with swapping one reliable source with another)… but… that’s not what we are being asked to determine. We are not being asked what the best news source is… or even whether there are better news sources than Fox. We are being asked to determine whether Fox is ''generally'' reliable or unreliable (as opposed to being specifically unreliable on one topic).  I still think Fox is, generally, on the reliable side of the line.  The existence of other reliable news sources (hell, even news sources that are ''more'' reliable) does NOT equate to Fox’s coverage being '''un'''reliable. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 00:37, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
::{{tq|...not reliable when it comes to the 2020 Election and its aftermath.}} Or Covid, climate change, gas prices, the economy.... You can say not reliable for politics or science; but everything these days is tinged with one or both, and that includes plane or train crashes (where Trump is now and about which MTG is loudly calling for impeachment). [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 01:44, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
:::This gets us back to asking “what are we verifying when we cite a source?”  That the train derailed? I think Fox reliably reported this. That Trump visited the town? Same.  Are you saying that Fox did ''not'' reliably report both facts?  Are you saying they fabricated these stories? [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 03:42, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
:::: Blueboar, they lie about the really important things. We can use other RS for the small stuff. We do not forgive perpetual liars. You have clearly not read the sources, so here's the constantly updated list. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 03:51, 23 February 2023 (UTC)<br>
{{User:Valjean/Sources for Dominion vs Fox News scandal}}
::"Reliable" means "you can rely on it". Not "you have to check a long list of subjects first, and if the subject in question is not on the list yet, maybe you can rely on it, or maybe it will be added to the list later, who knows?" --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 14:01, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
:::Flip it… It’s actually a very ''short'' list of things they are ''not'' reliable on. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 14:42, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
:::: Not true. This is about their main focus, the topics they focus on and choose to deliberately ignore. American politics is their main focus. <s>Minor stuff might add up to a long list of individual items that is longer than the list of problematic areas,</s> but those areas are far more significant. The small stuff is always covered by other sources where we don't need to double-check whether they are deliberately lying to us. We always have to do that with Fox News. We lose nothing by deprecating Fox News. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 17:29, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
::::Well, there’s sports (when race isn’t involved) and entertainment (when competitors aren’t involved). Looking at the first section of the NYT today, articles on immigration, Biden, NATO, McCarthy and Tucker Carlson, climate change, Ukraine/Russia, Israel, same sex couples, arms to Taiwan, train derailment (Obama made new regs and Trump removed them), Trump criminal inquiries, gun violence, Proud Boys, several election articles, Twitter law suit in the USSC, early inmate release, death penalty. These are all areas where Fox is a questionable source. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 17:30, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
::::: Good points, so striking part of my comment above. Of the areas they actually do cover, there are very few that aren't problematic. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 18:15, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Harvard law professor [[Laurence Tribe]]:
{{quotebox| “I have never seen a defamation case with such overwhelming proof that the defendant admitted in writing that it was making up fake information in order to increase its viewership and its revenues,” Tribe told the Guardian. “Fox and its producers and performers were lying as part of their business model.”<ref name="Kaiser_2/20/2023">{{cite web | last=Kaiser | first=Charles | title=How Dominion Voting Systems filing proves Fox News was 'deliberately lying' | website=[[The Guardian]] | date=February 20, 2023 | url=https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/feb/20/fox-news-dominion-voting-systems-defamation-case-analysis | access-date=February 23, 2023}}</ref>}}
Pretty damning. He makes the case for deprecation. He ticks off all the most important boxes we require for a RS. Fox News fails each one. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 04:20, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:It's pretty obvious that Fox News at least should be generally unreliable if not deprecated and blacklisted altogether. They indeed have fabricated information on many occasions. It's quite clear that their top brass have created an atmosphere designed to push advocacy and propaganda. It should not be trusted for any topic but particularly not for politics. However, because we need a stronger consensus than last time to actually change the status quo, I suspect we'll have to bring this topic up again in the future. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 04:03, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Why only Fox News and not the whole Murdoch "press"? [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 13:15, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

:The Sun is deprecated. The NYPost is considered unreliable for facts. The WSJ is considered generally reliable for news, outside of the opinion articles. It has received Pulitzers. Personally, I think it has slipped; but I am a subscriber for financial news. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 14:17, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
::Australia is also rotten by such "press" and there are still a couple other outlets in the UK. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 14:27, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
:::Canada has a similar problem in that 90% of the newspapers are owned by an American conglomerate. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 13:19, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
::I don't think a source which is "only" half propaganda should be tolerated. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 14:30, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
::We've discussed the Australian Murdoch papers here previously. The Australian is a pompously serious paper and is green-rated on [[WP:RSP]], but with caveats. Various city tabloids have been discussed and considered sources to apply with caution and not at all for opinion, ''e.g.'' [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_280#Herald_Sun_and_Andrew_Bolt|Andrew Bolt columns]], but not in a proper RFC as such - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 21:10, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
:::If you only ban Fox News, syndicated content can come from any other property. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 21:28, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
This really shows Wikipedia's anti-self-published stance is wrong. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 20:14, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

It bears noting that two of the major purveyors of The Big Lie under the Fox Corporation umbrella, [[Maria Bartiromo]] of Fox Business and Fox News, and [[Lou Dobbs]] of Fox Business, are characterized in their BLPs as ''news'' anchors. This is not the case with Carlson, Hannity, Ingraham or Pirro. So we're not talking only about hosts on the opinion side. It's the news side, too. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 05:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

*: a source that will deliberately and consistently lie about any topic if it benefits that source's benefactors is not a reliable source. Maintaining a list of topics that they ''are'' supposedly reliable on is inadvisable, because there is no guarantee that it will stay that way, or that the reporting won't be biased in some other way that may be harder to detect in individual cases. If we can get whatever information we need from elsewhere without that risk, that is ''always '' the better choice. I will however note that I would have said this before 2016 as well, so my opinion here doesn't really change the balance. This is just another (worse) example of a pattern that has pretty much always been there. ----[[User:Licks-rocks|Licks-rocks]] ([[User talk:Licks-rocks#top|talk]]) 11:57, 8 March 2023 (UTC) 
<!-- Please keep comments above this code. -->
{{reftalk}}

== Planespotters.net ==

Hi there everyone! I'd like to draw your attention to {{url|www.planespotters.net}}, which is widely used across airline articles. I am concerned about the reliability of this particular source as their disclaimer at {{url|https://www.planespotters.net/about}} lists unofficial sites, including blogs. Can you please drop some lines regarding this in order to settle the matter once and for all? Thank you in advance. '''[[User:Jetstreamer|Jetstreamer]]'''&nbsp;''{{sup|[[User talk:Jetstreamer#top|Talk]]}}'' 23:28, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

:I think it tends to be more up to date than airfleets. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 00:03, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
::But there's usually a lag of some days between a delivery appearing in the news and showing up on the website. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 00:48, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
:The site seems to be the work of one individual, so would fall under [[WP:SPS]]. I can find several book citing the site from seemingly reputable publishers ([https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5TkLDgAAQBAJ&dq=planespotters.net&q=planespotters.net#v=snippet&q=planespotters.net&f=false University of Belgrade Press], [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZccnEAAAQBAJ&dq=planespotters.net&q=planespotters.net#v=snippet&q=planespotters.net&f=false Sanata Dharma University Press], [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eNSuEAAAQBAJ&dq=planespotters.net&q=planespotters.net#v=snippet&q=planespotters.net&f=false Springer]), as well as other publisher either unknown to me or works that are self published. Does anyone else have any reputable source treating the site as reliable? -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 19:27, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
:Hi @[[User:Jetstreamer|Jetstreamer]]
:I would agree with @[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]] in that it appears it is currently run by a single individual so WP:SPS would apply. The website also doesn't make it clear whether a source was used from their official or unofficial list, either. In my opinion, even if there are reputable publishers stating that it's reliable...until we know which sources were used (official or unofficial) for the information on their page, we can't really be sure.
:[[User:Starlights99|Starlights99]] ([[User talk:Starlights99|talk]]) 19:40, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
::There's a contact form if you want to ask for more information. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 21:45, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
::It is not self-published. The site publishes photos on behalf of many people. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 21:53, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
:::As it is an image hosting site, the photos would fall under user-generated. The site likely edits the registrations into data given official sources. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 22:12, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
: I would also agree that it's an SPS and that we are relying on whether they treated as reliable by published RS's. Note that at least one of the "unofficial sites" that it lists in its disclaimer (i.e. [[Air-Britain]] is very much a reliable source. I think that official/unofficial here is the difference between airline/manuafacturer (what here we would call primary sources) and other sources - a mix of reliable and SPS/enthuiast sources.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 22:31, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
::Sometimes I see differences between this site and airfleets where it's not possible to choose one as "better". [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 22:41, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
* Some of their content is self published and some is user generated. None of it is [[WP:RS]]. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 22:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
*:You're assuming it is self-published because you see a person as the owner. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 14:08, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
*:: And you're asserting that it is not self-published because... ? [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 19:57, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::I am not asserting that the data is not self-published, but I am not saying it is either. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 20:01, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::: If you can't be bothered to evaluate the source why do you expect others to answer your questions about their evaluation? [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 20:07, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::::I told you before that if you have doubts about the source you can try asking them first. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 20:09, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::::: Thats not how it works, those who want to use the source need to demonstrate that its reliable. If they can't do that they can't use it. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 20:18, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::I am not a fan, but according to airliners there's no authoritative source for whole industry data and this would be the best free one. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 20:25, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::If there is no authoritative source for it then its inclusion in Wikipedia is inappropriate per [[WP:DUE]]. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 22:18, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::No ''industry-wide'' source. You could have data for some airlines but not for every one. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 22:59, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::::So then wikipedia probably shouldn't include industry wide data. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 23:19, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::That's the point I'm trying to make. That if Wikipedia wants to show some things, it needs to accept compromises. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 23:35, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::: We don't want to show some things. We only want to show what is [[WP:DUE]]. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 17:27, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::::The number of aircraft represent a fact, not a viewpoint. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 19:26, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::::::::Yes, and wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of facts. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 19:30, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::::::The number of aircraft an airline has is not a random datapoint. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 19:34, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::::::: Yes, and if you can source the number of aircraft an airline to a reputable source then including the number of aircraft an airline has is due, if there is no such source then including the number of aircraft an airline has is undue. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 21:14, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::::::::Which brings problems for filling up some articles. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 21:23, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::::::::: Thats not a problem, thats how its supposed to be. Thats the right way. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 21:26, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::::::::::It is a problem. The articles would be incomplete. The right way is to accept this as a RS because some books do. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 21:27, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::::::::::::::It would be complete, an article is complete when you have exhausted all coverage in WP:RS. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 21:53, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::::::::::::Some articles would be objectively incomplete, even if they comply with your definition. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 22:13, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::::::::::::::::Its not my definition its wikipedia's, wikipedia is meant to be objectively incomplete see [[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]]: "Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful. A Wikipedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject." [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 22:17, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::::::::::::::I am not advocating to include false information, only against extremist bureaucracy. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 22:24, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::::::::::::::: The RSN noticeboard is not the appropriate place to do that, perhaps start a discussion at the [[WP:VILLAGEPUMP]]? [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 22:34, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::::::::::::::::I am now only talking about bureaucracy as it concerns this case. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 22:36, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::::::::::::::::::::None of us here are bureaucrats unless I'm missing something. You appear to have an issue with community consensus in regards to what wikipedia is, in order to change that you will need to get a new community consensus. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 22:40, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::::::::::::::::::I have a problem about quickly banning a source when loopholes exist. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 22:47, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::Hi @[[User:Horse Eye's Back|Horse Eye's Back]],
*:::::::Just want to say that I also agree with this sentiment. Sources need to be neutral and reliable. Planepsotters.net is a growing collection of individual contributions rather than a single source. I don't think the information is actively being verified either. I would class it as not reliable.
*:::::::Thanks,
*:::::::[[User:Starlights99|Starlights99]] ([[User talk:Starlights99|talk]]) 17:22, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
:I am reading all the comments left here. IMO, it cannot be considered reliable, but let's just wait for more input. Thank you all.--'''[[User:Jetstreamer|Jetstreamer]]'''&nbsp;''{{sup|[[User talk:Jetstreamer#top|Talk]]}}'' 14:13, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
::The aggregates are backed by registration numbers. Maybe the dry leases cannot be verified without resorting to community photos. Besides that, I would say it is a question of freshness and completeness more than reliability. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 14:51, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
:::The Future column seems to be indicating immediately upcoming deliveries. I would not use it. For retired aircraft, I would compare with airfleets. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 15:35, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
::::I would also not pay any attention to parking status. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 16:40, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::So yeah basically it's not reliable and shouldn't be used as a source. [[User:Canterbury Tail|<b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b>]] [[User talk:Canterbury Tail|<i style="color: Blue;">talk</i>]] 18:07, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::I would use it for the total number of in service and maybe retired aircraft. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 19:51, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::::As mentioned in airliners.net, another verification source would be flightradar24. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 19:53, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::::: The inventories of most airlines should be available by WP:RS printed directories - these do generally come out once per year, so may be less up to date than online sources, and of course someone will have to pay for them, while things like planespotters are free and easy to access.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 22:30, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::It is OK to update some articles once a year, but maybe not others. Besides who will pay for it, the other question is if one person would have to fill out everything. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 22:44, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::Are these directories solely based on official sources or is it yet another case where unofficial sources are also being used? [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 23:06, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
::You have long shown to have a problem with planespotters but have not provided any examples of unreliability. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 14:07, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
:::You've got it wrong, as the person arguing for it to be reliable you need to prove reliability not the other way around. [[User:Canterbury Tail|<b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b>]] [[User talk:Canterbury Tail|<i style="color: Blue;">talk</i>]] 14:30, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
::::Many unreliable traditional sources are still accepted by Wikipedia. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 14:40, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
:::::Looking at your edits I'm beginning to believe you do not understand how Wikipedia works. Additionally please read [[WP:BLUDGEON]]. [[User:Canterbury Tail|<b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b>]] [[User talk:Canterbury Tail|<i style="color: Blue;">talk</i>]] 14:43, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
::::::No, I now understand better how English Wikipedia works, so I think it would be time to stop contributing again. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 14:52, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
:::That's easy. Here is a listing for [https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Adler-Aviation Adler Aviation] except it's really for [[Adlair Aviation]]. It list just a historical Twin Otter ([[:File:C-GFYN Adlair Aviation Ltd. de Havilland Twin Otter (DHC6) 02.JPG|GFYN]]) that is now owned by Buffalo. However, Adlair has two registered aircraft at [https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/CCARCS-RIACC/RchSimpRes.aspx?cn=%7c%7c&mn=%7c%7c&sn=%7c%7c&on=ADLAIR%7c&m=%7c%7c&rfr=RchSimp.aspx Transport Canada]. The Lear is parked (semi-permanently in back of the hangar) and the King Air is out of town right now. Planespotters isn't trustworthy. [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]], [[User talk:CambridgeBayWeather|Uqaqtuq (talk)]], [[Special:Contributions/CambridgeBayWeather|Huliva]] 00:31, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
::::They mashed up 2 different companies. It is visible. [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 02:12, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
*As a [[WP:SPS|Self-published source]], this does ''not'' have the reputation of a well-known publisher adding to its credibility, and there is no evidence that the information contained at the site is vetted or checked or placed under any layers of editorial control besides the one person who runs the site.  Self-published sources are generally only considered sufficiently reliable ''if and only if'' other reliable sources demonstrate that the person in question is widely regarded as a subject matter expert, and if other reliable sources frequently cite the source in question as itself reliable.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 15:33, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
*:I concur. I think it might be possible to demonstrate planespotter is [[WP:EXPERTSPS]], but it hasn't been demonstrated yet. The sources AD posted above are a start, but I'd want to see a lot more, before we could treat it like [[baseball-reference.com]] or {{ill|National Football Teams (website)|lt=National Football Teams|fi|National Football Teams|pl|National Football Teams}} (listed on [[WP:WPFLINKS]]). [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 01:52, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
*::I didn't comment on reliability in my comment as I don't believe what I found is enough. As no-one else seems to have found anything better, I don't believe it passes the requirements of [[WP:SPS]]. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 21:22, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
*'''Not reliable''': I see nothing to indicate it meets any of our standards of reliability. As a result it should be considered unreliable and all references to it should be either removed or repointed to reliable sources. If reliable sources for the material do not exist, then as with everything else, the info should be removed. [[User:Canterbury Tail|<b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b>]] [[User talk:Canterbury Tail|<i style="color: Blue;">talk</i>]] 14:01, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
*Discussion:<ref>https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1452037</ref>
*I've long maintained that it's '''not reliable'''. I gave one example above and I just found another. According to Planespotters the ICAO designator for [[Summit Air]] is [https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Summit-Air SMM] but according to Nav Canada's [https://www.navcanada.ca/en/canadian-icao-designators---indicatifs-oaci-canadien.pdf ICAO Designators for Canadian Aircraft Operating Agencies, Aeronautical Authorities and Services] it's SUT. [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]], [[User talk:CambridgeBayWeather|Uqaqtuq (talk)]], [[Special:Contributions/CambridgeBayWeather|Huliva]] 00:44, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
*:Wikipedia and some other websites (including the FAA) show Summit Air for SMM (US AOC?). [[User:Trigenibinion|Trigenibinion]] ([[User talk:Trigenibinion|talk]]) 02:03, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
*::Again can you please stop [[WP:BLUDGEON|bludgeoning]] the conversation. Out of the now 66 comments in this thread, you've made 32 of them. That's almost 50% of all comments. Please allow the comments and thread to reach it's conclusion and stop responding to everything. [[User:Canterbury Tail|<b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b>]] [[User talk:Canterbury Tail|<i style="color: Blue;">talk</i>]] 13:06, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
*'''Not Reliable''' It's clearly crowdsourced and to the extent "edited" is done so by a SPS. It consists almost entirely of photos contributed by unverified persons with no way to verify the authenticity of the appended information. So, we have a photo of an Acme 9000XYZ airplane in the livery of the VeryBestAirline purportedly at the Gotham City Airport, with a caption - first one ever delivered! How do we know any of that is accurate, even assuming the pic wasn't photoshopped? This isn't even a close question...and the argument that "there aren't any better sources" is a fundamental failure to grasp what is meant by "reliable sources". [[User:Banks Irk|Banks Irk]] ([[User talk:Banks Irk|talk]]) 01:09, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
* '''Additional considerations apply, use with care; to marginally reliable for limited factoids'''. [https://www.planespotters.net/photos/editorsChoice Editor's Choice] says "<font color="green">A selection of our favorite photos as chosen and voted by our dedicated '''team''' here at Planespotters.net</font>" Indicates they have a '''review team'''. However, I would hesitate to rely solely on it for anything other than visual info' seen in independent photos from more than one user. Check of semi-random article from insource search was not great:[[Air_India#cite_ref-112]] I like that planespotters has "send in corrections" links, and sometimes links to "more info" at independent websites[https://web.archive.org/web/20110618035943/https://www.planespotters.net/Production_List/Boeing/747/27078,VT-ESM-Air-India.php]; however, this time the linked info was blank, for me. The search to find more than one photo of a plane type is good - example[https://www.planespotters.net/photo/search?reg=N140SC&airline=Northrop-Grumman-Corporation&country=United-States&detail=L-1011-385-1-14+TriStar+100&subtype=L-1011-TriStar&type=L-1011-TriStar], but then you're getting into [[WP:OR]] territory.  -- [[User:Yae4|Yae4]] ([[User talk:Yae4|talk]]) 02:58, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
*'''Unreliable'''. It's a self-published source with obvious errors and an unclear editorial structure. It's not widely cited by other reliable sources, which suggests it lacks [[WP:REPUTABLE|a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy]]. If planespotters.net cites a reliable source for its content, we can use that reliable source instead. There's simply no need to use a source like this. [[User:Woodroar|Woodroar]] ([[User talk:Woodroar|talk]]) 15:13, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
{{talk-reflist}}

== Archive ==

1. Source. [https://web.archive.org/web/20130830084338/http://sagaracity.gov.in/node/132]  and
[http://sagaracity.gov.in/node/132]


2.Article. [[Marikamba Temple, Sagara]]

3.Content. Self published and orginal research. The content is no longer available in current version of Municipal Website. I have question regarding its archive use in wiki article , the entire article is written on the basis of this archive, no other independent reliable sources are available, is this archive is reliable or not?.
<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nimmoun|Nimmoun]] ([[User talk:Nimmoun#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nimmoun|contribs]]) 04:30, 5 March 2023 (UTC)</small>

:It doesn't appear the source is self published, as the council and the temple are separate organisations. Also the restriction against original research doesn't apply to sources, but rather editors (see [[WP:OR]]). Having said all that, a local council website is a poor source for 16th history. It would still be reliable for the temples existence and uncontroversial details. If you have better, more up to date sources I suggest rewriting the effected parts of the article or raising you concerns on the articles talk page. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 10:51, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

== Beans beans the musical fruit ==

[[File:BeansMusicalFruit ngram.jpg|thumb|A preliminary Google n-gram search for “beans the musical” and “beans the magical” yields the following trend (right photo): "beans the musical" first saw use in the late 1940s-1950s, then a resurgence in the 1980s-1990s, and again in the mid-late 00s; "beans the magical" was not found. Longer phrases weren’t found, though alternate phrases like “the musical fruit” and “the magical fruit” were. “the musical fruit” predominates in the modern era, while “the magical fruit” saw a resurgence only in the 1990s. It’s worth noting that surges in use in the 1990s-2000s follow the airing of [[The Simpsons]] episodes Whacking Day (1993) and a second episode parodying "The Magical Flute" and "Beans beans the musical fruit" also aired in 2004 (see: https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/The_Musical_Fruit). It's possible this is a key source of confusion.]]

See talk page section: [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Beans,_Beans,_the_Musical_Fruit|'''Why not both versions?''']]

{{Ping|Sundayclose}}, {{Ping|Cstanford.math}}.

Requesting two forms of arbitration on this issue:

'''1)''' Could someone weigh in to help settle a more convincing consensus (or split decision) regarding adding the common misnomer "the magical fruit" to the page?

'''2)''' I recognize it's not standard practice re: [[WP:RS]] and it equates to [[WP:SPS]], but I provided a replicable Google n-grams search with methodology listed in the Talk page to justify the need to mention the misnomer "the magical fruit" as it shows just how common this misnomer is. This n-grams search is provided to the right.

This doesn't need to be cited within the page itself, but I hope it better justifies the need for mentioning "the magical fruit." The page sees a lot of good-faith "vandalism" edits changing the lyrics from "the musical fruit" to "the magical fruit," and I believe having a mention up front of the correct lyrics, and misnomer lyrics, would do the page good. I'd propose a simple edit to the opening paragraph that adds something akin to:

''"A common misnomer is "Beans beans the magical fruit", which emerged in the mid-1990s.''

and depending on how gracious the community is regarding this [[WP:SPS]]

''"A common misnomer is "Beans beans the magical fruit", which emerged in the mid-1990s, a timeframe following episodes of [[The Simpsons]] that included the nursery rhyme.''

I can only make the argument that per [[WP:SPS]] I am putting forth this repeatable Google n-gram search as evidence independent of any entity (including myself), and so is being used as expert testimony. The page's current citations are quite poor, relying on indirect mentions and what amounts to a student newspaper blog as its only primary references. So I don't believe my well-intentioned [[WP:SPS]] status is inferior to the quality of evidence currently on the page. However I am also clearly in COI for adding it to the page myself without external agreement and consensus.

Thanks for anyone willing to read through all of this nonsense about Wikipedia page on a nursery rhyme. All of this is said in good faith, with the intent to follow Wikipedia standard practices, or at least, provide reasoning for why this instance should be treated as an exception.

Cheers -- [[User:Crawdaunt|Crawdaunt]] ([[User talk:Crawdaunt|talk]]) 14:38, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
* Short answer to long question. A Google search is not a reliable source. Google n-grams included. [[User:Banks Irk|Banks Irk]] ([[User talk:Banks Irk|talk]]) 15:11, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

:An ngram search is not a reliable source, honestly this sounds more like [[WP:OR]] than an RS. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 15:51, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
::Absolutely it's a [[WP:OR]] issue. I think the question in #2 is: in this rare instance, can the community here act as peer reviewers to this [[WP:OR]] and judge its validity? Not arguing it's not [[WP:OR]], but am asking if, in this instance, given the replicability of the claim, and if the community judges it so, it might be akin to [[WP:SPS]] because the data are given in an archived way that can be reproduced?
::Question #1 is: can one add "magical fruit" without a [[WP:RS]] source? If one looks at the page, the entire page is built off of citations that stretch the definition of [[WP:RS]] in the first place... A student newspaper column is the only cited source of the lyrics, which is partly because things like episodes of The Simpsons that might be 3rd party sources don't have e.g. formal transcripts... and beyond that, the internet is a paltry source of some professional record of "Beans Beans the Musical Fruit" lyrics... -- [[User:Crawdaunt|Crawdaunt]] ([[User talk:Crawdaunt|talk]]) 22:20, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
::* No, and No. You need reliable sources. Find some; it's easy. Did you try to look for a source on Google Books? (hint, hint) [[User:Banks Irk|Banks Irk]] ([[User talk:Banks Irk|talk]]) 22:51, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
::*:Yes, I did. I assure you google n-grams was not my 1st instinct. It's actually interesting, because within the n-grams data, it demonstrates that there is no clear hit to ''"beans the magical"'' (querying the Google Books + more databases), see: '''"Ngrams not found: beans the magical."''' in image file.
::*::
::*:'''''Perhaps a different solution:''''' is this a case where there is clear veracity of the claim (evidenced by frequent good-faith page vandalism, and supported by the N-grams result in the Talk page), the issue is strictly in the lack of a proper citation? If so, could adding ''"a common misnomer is beans beans the magical fruit.{{cn}}"'' be appropriate?
::*::
::*:I'm pretty confident I could find examples on the web of this misnomer being used, which could be cited as evidence of the misnomer existing. These would likely be blogs or other  non-[[WP:RS]], and so couldn't be cited themselves as authoratative sources, but rather could only be cited as evidence of the misnomer, perhaps only in the Talk page to leave a record. In that case, the main page edit would strictly just be the simple statement + the [[citation needed]] tag? -- [[User:Crawdaunt|Crawdaunt]] ([[User talk:Crawdaunt|talk]]) 12:38, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
:::{{tq|in this rare instance, can the community here act as peer reviewers to this WP:OR and judge its validity?}} No, not in this instance not in any other instance. OR is not acceptable, no area or issue gets a carve out from that.
:::{{tq|can one add "magical fruit" without a WP:RS source?}} Again no, [[WP:V]] is not negotiable. If no reliable source exists to verify the content it can't be added or should be removed. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 15:48, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
*{{U|Levivich}} will probably disagree, but isn't this covered by [[WP:BEANS]]? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:34, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
*:No, it's [[WP:FRUIT]]. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 21:02, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
*::How many times have I told you to lay off the gay jokes? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 23:47, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::No, it's [[WP:FART]]. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 21:33, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
*::::How many times have I told you to lay off the fart jokes? --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 21:33, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
*Find a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] rather than doing original research on Google. Don't assume there aren't any - it's quite possible that some latter-day [[Iona and Peter Opie]] have written, or will write, an encyclopaedia of 20th-century American nursery rhymes. [[User:Daveosaurus|Daveosaurus]] ([[User talk:Daveosaurus|talk]]) 00:15, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
*:Yes I agree with all of the above (except with the insistence that I just "try harder", per my responses above and here). '''I will focus my current question:'''
*:The fact that this misnomer exists is not debated. The issue is my inability to find a [[WP:RS]] that satisfies the community's, ''and indeed my own,'' requirements of [[WP:RS]]. Thus why it's not on the page currently. Again, see the n-grams search, which shows "beans the magical" simply doesn't have a searchable hit in Google Books. Trying harder doesn't make n-grams exist. "Beans the magical" simply isn't a search term that has hits on databases like Google Books.
*:'''QUESTION:''' so could it be possible to add the fact that the misnomer exists with a {{cn}} tag? That's basically what the {{cn}} tag is for isn't it? Otherwise any statements lacking a [[WP:RS]] would always be taken down, rather than being given a {{cn}} tag.
*:.
*:Thanks for responses. Please stop telling me to try harder though. I'm sure [[Iona and Peter Opie]] have written, or will write, on Beans Beans the Musical Fruit. I doubt, ''backed up by n-gram evidence,'' that any of their available work mentions the misnomer "Beans Beans the Magical Fruit." OR is not appropriate as a citation, we all agree. But OR can be considered on Talk pages like this one to inform the conversation!
*:-- [[User:Crawdaunt|Crawdaunt]] ([[User talk:Crawdaunt|talk]]) 10:34, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
*::Anything lacking an RS can be taken down at any time, the [[WP:BURDEN]] is always on the person adding the content. The relevant text for citation need tags is {{tq|'''Consider''' adding a citation needed tag as an '''interim''' step}}. Considering that you have looked and can't find any RS adding the content with tags doesn't seem appropriate. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 19:49, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

== Walter Ong on non-human biology ==

The article [[Male expendability]] cites cultural historian and religious scholar [[Walter Ong]]'s book ''Fighting for Life''.  In two places.  This request is for the passage where he talks about non-human animals (ungulates in some versions, mantises and dung beetles in the current one) [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Male_expendability&oldid=1143032557#In_other_species].  No party disputes that Ong and his book are reliable sources in general, but there is disagreement about whether he is reliable for this specific content.

Background: Male expendability is the idea that because it takes more energy for females/women to produce than for males/men to reproduce, society considers human men expendable.  Anthropoligsts have used this idea in their studies since the 1970s.  Manosphere critics later adopted it as well.

My own take: Ong's not a biologist, mammologist, entomologist, etc.  So he should be treated as an amateur when it comes to biology. [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 22:27, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
:I think this whole discussion is way oversized given that, ''even if Ong was the most reliable source in the world'', what he wrote doesn't actually verify the information cited to it.  ■&nbsp;∃&nbsp;[[User:Maddy from Celeste|<b style="color:#C64600">Madeline</b>]]&nbsp;⇔&nbsp;∃&nbsp;[[User talk:Maddy from Celeste|<b style="color:#613583">Part&nbsp;of&nbsp;me</b>]]&nbsp;''';''' 22:32, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
::Oh, here's a link to the discussion.  M here has helpfully quoted the passage from ''FFL'' that's used as a source for the article's statement about dung beetles: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Male_expendability#Fighting_for_Life_by_Walter_Ong] [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 22:39, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

:This discussion seems to be chasing a foul ball in the form of dung beetles. The essence of the topic is that human males are historically considered expendable defenders of human social groups because of the generally greater physical strength in males, and the way that humans are able to reproduce, which was how [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Male_expendability&diff=1066546225&oldid=1066502248 Walter Ong was first brought in as a source] by {{u|TiggyTheTerrible}} in January 2022, supporting commentary about humans but also including farm animals, wild animals, and dung beetles. The stuff about animals is peripheral. The stuff about humans is of core importance. Ong is certainly qualified to comment on human behavior. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 23:12, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
::The question posed here is whether Ong is a reliable source for said supporting commentary "including farm animals, wild animals, and dung beetles." Whether he's reliable for the content about humans is a separate issue. [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 00:12, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
:::Your question conceals the larger story. [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Male_expendability&diff=1143017218&oldid=1142809425 You removed human AND non-human information cited to Ong] which makes it look like you are trying to remove Ong entirely, using the lever of non-human. Ong should not be removed entirely. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 05:08, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
::::I suggest reinstating the human related information and discuss the animal related examples further. The problem with the animal examples is that it is actually another problem entirely. For inter-animal interaction its obviously not cultural devaluation from society, but would be something like an emergent systematic effect inherent in the evolutionary biology of all sexual dimorph lifeforms, similar to [[Bateman's principle|Bateman's principle]]. [[User:AndersThorseth|AndersThorseth]] ([[User talk:AndersThorseth|talk]]) 13:25, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

== [[Plugged In]] ==

The source in question is in use at the article [[Made You Look (Meghan Trainor song)]], for the following statements:
*"[The song] fuses 1950s music with contemporary styles"
*"[In the lyrics, the singer] insists she looks better donning just her hoodie and 'hotter when [her] morning hair's a mess'".
*"Trainor declares that onlookers would [...] become obsessed with her once they 'get a taste'; she also uses the slang term '14-karat cake' to refer to her backside."
*"Marsella Evans of ''Plugged In'' criticized the song's obsession with physical beauty and the idea of seeking attention by taking off one's clothes, also accusing parts of it of promoting materialism; she was positive about the lyrics that encourage valuing natural beauty."
Their [https://www.pluggedin.com/about/ about us] page states they have an editorial team but also admits a religious bias. Would they still be considered a reliable source for the song's composition and lyrics? What about for critical commentary cited in the fourth point? Regards.--''[[User:MaranoFan|<b style="color:purple">N</b>]][[User talk:MaranoFan|<b style="color:teal">Ø</b>]]'' 10:52, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
*It's reliable for the reviewer's opinion, with attribution, as is done in the article on the 4th quote. I'd be disinclined to use it for anything else. Whether the author's opinion - which is that the lyrics are unchristian from a fundamentalist viewpoint - is something that should be included in the article is a [[WP:Due]] issue that can be discussed on the article talk page. But it is a Reliable Source that she holds that opinion. [[User:Banks Irk|Banks Irk]] ([[User talk:Banks Irk|talk]]) 14:13, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

== [[Charisma (magazine)]] at [[Nicole C. Mullen]]==

{{user|Horse Eye's Back}} came through this article today and cut half the article's content, which included a source to an interview with the Christian magazine [[Charisma (magazine)|Charisma]] done in 2016 detailing the musical career of the BLP subject as seen [http://web.archive.org/web/20161004050417/https://charismamag.com/life/117-j15/covers/unorganized/1727-shes-just-everyday-people here in archived form]. After a back and forth about why they'd remove a good source, they then stated they did so because of the magazine's sudden shift, as with seemingly everything evangelical after a certain November 2016 political victory, and even more with a certain disease named after 2019, to attack articles against said disease mandates and that they think certain government officials should be smited or something for being in support for them or for their sexual orientation, along with anti-Muslim rhetoric. Trust me, I '''do''' 100% agree that stuff definitely doesn't meet RS.

However, this article was written in October 2016 and is merely an artist profile which doesn't attack anybody or opposing religions, I feel like it would be reliable for at least the purpose of sourcing the BLP's career. I will definitely yield if analysis determines that we just won't source to this magazine, but for the interest area of a CCM singer and the tone of the piece, that the source is fine, even if the magazine it's in has become something else in intervening years, ''a la'' current-day ''Newsweek''. I'm also going to ping in {{ping|Drmies}} as they looked at the article and removed out of date dead vague links (of the 'here's the Billboard chart link' type with no deeper linking) after HEB came through (which I have no issue with). <span style="font-family: Roboto;">'''[[User:MrSchimpf|<span style="color:royalblue4">Nate</span>]]''' <span style="color:#00008B">•</span> <small>''([[User_talk:MrSchimpf|<span style="color:#B8860B">chatter</span>]])''</small></span> 22:12, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
: I don't know whether Charisma was reliable in 2016. As you say it is not currently a RS. If a source can be found which says that there was a radical break with existing standards and practices at some point then it would very well be reasonable to break their reliability up into two time periods. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 22:19, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
:Not well versed in the subject and an uninvolved opinion, so I just read up on it slightly on the talk pages, ere's the archived source in question[https://web.archive.org/web/20151020003708/https://charismamag.com/life/117-j15/covers/unorganized/1727-shes-just-everyday-people], I'd say it appears to be an interview with the person so probably fine to use for very basic biographical details, but would not go towards notability and shouldn't be used for anything controversial. Seems quite [[WP:ROUTINE]] and fluffy. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 22:30, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
:I agreed with [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Nicole_C._Mullen&diff=prev&oldid=1143456132 this revert] by HEB, but not because of the ''Charisma'' bit--I had a problem with the other unverified information. I really don't have much of an opinion on the question at hand, except to say that I probably agree with {{U|Andrevan}}. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 22:43, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

== proza.ru ==

Is https://proza.ru/ a reliable source? Seems like a lot of the stuff posted there is russian propaganda [[User:Ola Tønningsberg|Ola Tønningsberg]] ([[User talk:Ola Tønningsberg|talk]]) 23:36, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

:Top of the page, via Google translate: {{tq|Proza.ru is a Russian literary portal that provides authors with the opportunity to freely publish their works.}} Which wouldn't meet [[WP:RS]] regardless of whether it was 'propaganda' or not, unless the authors had demonstrable subject-matter expertise. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 23:41, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
::I concur, you beat me to it, I was about to say the same. It's user-submitted content. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 23:43, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

== Need to deprecate an apparent scholarly source that cites and directly copies from wikipedia ==
{{Archive top
|result = Opener concedes that source is a [[WP:RS]] by the definition recognized by Wikipedians. [[User:Carchasm|&#32;- car chasm]] ([[User talk:Carchasm|talk]]) 04:16, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
|status = withdrawn}}
We appear to have had a citogenesis incident where a [[WP:FRINGE]] theory promoting the idea that Buddhism was brought to Ancient Greece by missionaries from Ashoka, which as far as I can tell is not supported by any [[WP:RS]]. The root appears to have been [[WP:OR]] and blatant source falsification done on the page for [[Hegesias of Cyrene]], but this propagated via the published book [https://books.google.com/books?id=wjW_BgAAQBAJ Historical Dictionary of Ancient Greek Philosophy], which admits to using wikipedia as a resource: {{blockquote|For most (not all) topics in ancient philosophy, there is little motivation for people to do wholesale flim-flam on a Wikipedia page, but there is always a possibility that you are reading an article edited most recently by a high school student with a sense of humor. One article I checked, on a minor Hellenistic philosopher, ended with the sentence, “And in addition, he loved bacon double cheeseburgers.” Two days later, the sentence was gone; the Wikipedia managers can be pretty efficient. Given the fluid nature of the Wikipedia articles, we have decided not to include them in the bibliography; at the same time, recognize that Wikipedia might be the most convenient place to find out significantly more on a topic discussed in this dictionary, and could have information not otherwise readily available.}}

Ergo, not only did this supposed "expert" decide to copy information from us (often verbatim!), but he decided not to even cite where he did! This source is therefore completely unusable, and it's quite the puzzle how it managed to be published in the first place. Is there somewhere we can document, or ideally programmatically prevent this source from being used in the future? I'm concerned that more cases like this will happen in the future as this source looks on the surface like it might be reliable even though it very much isn't. [[User:Carchasm|&#32;- car chasm]] ([[User talk:Carchasm|talk]]) 01:23, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

:I have also already removed the source wherever I could find it, and either removed the offending cited material if it dealt specifically with the one fringe theory I found it promoting, or removed the citation altogether. I'm mostly concerned about any of this being added back. [[User:Carchasm|&#32;- car chasm]] ([[User talk:Carchasm|talk]]) 01:25, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
::Nowhere in there does it say they based their information on (or copied from)  Wikipedia. What the author says is that Wikipedia is a pretty damned good source of information if you're looking for a quick overview of a topic. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 01:29, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
:::Sorry I should clarify - that quoted excerpt is taken from their bibliography. [[User:Carchasm|&#32;- car chasm]] ([[User talk:Carchasm|talk]]) 01:31, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
::::Bibliography: a list of works (such as books and articles) written on a particular subject or by a particular author.
::::Did we write articles on Ancient Greek philosophy? Yes. Therefore we could be included in a bibliography of the subject. That doesn't mean we were used as a source. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 01:37, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
:::::The full quote being
:::::<blockquote>Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page) is, we may say, controversial as a scholarly resource. For topics in ancient Greek philosophy many or most of the articles are ultimately based on the 11th ed. of the Encyclopedia Britannica, published in 1911, and then made available to anyone who wishes to edit them, essentially. The result is that it is extremely likely that there will be some information on almost any ancient philosopher, and on many philosophical topics that can be formulated clearly enough to be searched. Sometimes Wikipedia articles are every bit as good as the competing articles on Stanford or IEB, but given the fluidity of the Wiki process, there is always a question about reliability. For most (not all) topics in ancient philosophy, there is little motivation for people to do wholesale flim-flam on a Wikipedia page, but there is always a possibility that you are reading an article edited most recently by a high school student with a sense of humor. One article I checked recently, on a minor Hellenistic philosopher, ended with the sentence: “And in addition, he loved bacon double cheeseburgers.” Two days later, the sentence was gone; the Wikipedia managers can be pretty efficient. Given the fluid nature of the Wikipedia articles, we have decided not to include them in the bibliography; at the same time, recognize that Wikipedia might be the most convenient place to find out significantly more on a topic discussed in this dictionary, and could have information not otherwise readily available.</blockquote> &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 01:41, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
:::::That seems fairly damning to me, but I'm not interested in trying to reinterpret what they said in a way where if you ignore the usual meanings of words you can act like they didn't admit to citing wikipedia by listing it in their bibliography, because I can prove otherwise. They did use wikipedia as a source. they said that they "decided not to include them in the biography" and yet they do in fact copy us. I found this source when trying to find reliable sources to add to our ancient philosophy articles. You can spot check as many articles as you would like if you don't believe me. 
:::::Here is an example:
:::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Antipater_of_Cyrene&oldid=109815517 our page prior to the book's publication]
:::::Here's them: 
:::::{{blockquote|ANTIPATER OF CYRENE. Ἀντίπατρος. (4th BCE.) Student of Aristippus in the Cyrenaic school. According to Cicero (Tusculan Disputations v.38) he was blind, and when some women bewailed the fact, he responded, “Do you think the night can furnish no pleasure?}}
:::::Almost all of their entries are just paraphrases of what the wikipedia article said in 2006-2007. [[User:Carchasm|&#32;- car chasm]] ([[User talk:Carchasm|talk]]) 01:47, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
::::::That's...literally not the same as the article link you gave whatsoever. Just because it says "According to Cicero (Tusculan Disputations v.38) he was blind" doesn't mean that was taken from Wikipedia. [[User:Silver seren|<span style="color: silver;">Silver</span>]][[User talk:Silver seren|<span style="color: blue;">seren</span>]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]</sup> 01:50, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
:::::::You know what a paraphrase is, right? These are the exact same sentence, just paraphrased.
:::::::I'm not really sure what problem y'all are having here is. A bibliography is a place where you list the sources you used in a published book. Their book doesn't use inline citations, and none of their other sources cover the same material. [[User:Carchasm|&#32;- car chasm]] ([[User talk:Carchasm|talk]]) 01:54, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
::::::::"A bibliography is a place where you list the sources you used in a published book." No it's not. A bibliography is a curated list of works on a subject that one may consult to further understanding in various topics. This quote is in the introduction of their bibliography, which explain their selection criteria and why they include/omit certain works, and their appraisal of the quality of those works. It is not a list of sources used. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 01:57, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::Well, I don't think so, but if that ''were ''true, then we should deprecate this source anyway, because in that case it does not cite its sources at all! [[User:Carchasm|&#32;- car chasm]] ([[User talk:Carchasm|talk]]) 02:01, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::1) We don't require sources to cite their sources. 2) It does cite its source, it cites Cicero's ''Tusculan Disputations''. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 02:05, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::Ok, this is going nowhere. Frankly, if you think Cicero is a reliable source I doubt further discussion will be productive. [[User:Carchasm|&#32;- car chasm]] ([[User talk:Carchasm|talk]]) 02:08, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::I have no idea who Cicero is, but I'm pretty sure we can rely on Cicero to describe what Cicero reported of people. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 02:45, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
*This seems like a precipitous overreaction. I see no indication that the cited passage in the reference is based on the earlier Wikipedia article; it is certainly not copied verbatim and is not even a close paraphrase. The possible Indian connection to Hegesias was added by this edit [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/179383560]], which cited a scholarly source other than the one you object to. Lafont appears to be widely published, though I do not have access to the reference, and have only restaurant French. The editor who added the passage hasn't edited in a dozen years but was a prolific editor who hardly seems to have been a pusher of fringe theories. Wholesale deletion of all use of this source seems premature and unwarranted at least at this point. [[User:Banks Irk|Banks Irk]] ([[User talk:Banks Irk|talk]]) 02:18, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
:The OR "withdrew" this thread because they decided this was the wrong forum, he wasn't interested in community input, but pointed to a nonexistent forum instead, [[WP: Scholarship]]. Bottom line, he deleted all citations to a source across multiple articles, claiming it was promoting a fringe theory cited to a Wikipedia clone. RSN should assess whether it is a reliable source or not. [[User:Banks Irk|Banks Irk]] ([[User talk:Banks Irk|talk]]) 02:49, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
::I've gone ahead and reverted their removal of the source from all the relevant articles. If they want to make a [[WP:FRINGE]] claim about the information, they're free to do that in the relevant discussion noticeboard, but the source itself seems solid. So I don't think there would be support for removal there either, as it isn't being pushed by fringe sources. Not sure why saying the subject may have a connection to Buddhism as noted by some scholars is such a problem for them, but this isn't my area of research. [[User:Silver seren|<span style="color: silver;">Silver</span>]][[User talk:Silver seren|<span style="color: blue;">seren</span>]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]</sup> 02:54, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not require sources to cite their sources, it does not even require sources to have sources. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 03:52, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

:Oh, well perhaps it should, then? I'm impressed by how proud people are to claim that they don't care whether our sources are good or not! I had intended to withdraw this because I don't particularly think I'm likely to convince this crowd of much useful. Unclear why it was reopened. [[User:Carchasm|&#32;- car chasm]] ([[User talk:Carchasm|talk]]) 04:10, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== The Eurasian Times ==
{{Atop|Nothing to do here. [[User:X750|X750]]. ''[[User talk:X750|Spin a yarn?]]'' ''<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/X750|Articles I've screwed over?]]</small></sub>'' 04:42, 10 March 2023 (UTC)}}
[https://eurasiantimes.com/] Is the Eurasian Times considered a reliable source? It's used in some articles, especially ones that relate to military equipment and geopolitical affairs. They say they have a team of "highly-trained journalists" on their about us page, but I would like to know your opinions too. Thank you. [[User:X750|X750]]. ''[[User talk:X750|Spin a yarn?]]'' ''<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/X750|Articles I've screwed over?]]</small></sub>'' 22:17, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
*Appears to be a reliable source. It's been in operation several years, has a professional staff and editors. I don't see a lot of citations to it by other news organizations, but what takes it over the top for me is that a search on Google Scholar shows a significant number of its articles being cited in scholarly journals. [[User:Banks Irk|Banks Irk]] ([[User talk:Banks Irk|talk]]) 22:51, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
*:Thank you, {{u|Banks Irk}}. [[User:X750|X750]]. ''[[User talk:X750|Spin a yarn?]]'' ''<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/X750|Articles I've screwed over?]]</small></sub>'' 23:00, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
*I would not consider the Eurasian Times to be a reliable source. They primarily do [[churnalism]] and they don't do a great job so their articles are *full* of errors and misrepresentations. So if something is covered in The Eurasian Times its also almost certainly covered better elsewhere and if its not then it shouldn't be on wikipedia. My own experience is primarily related to global affairs and defense but unless I'm mistaken those are the primary focus areas of this publication so you would expect those areas to have the strongest content. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 19:26, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
*:Can you please show me where those errors have been reported on by other publications in similar genres? Or an example article? Thank you. [[User:X750|X750]]. ''[[User talk:X750|Spin a yarn?]]'' ''<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/X750|Articles I've screwed over?]]</small></sub>'' 22:15, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
*:: You're coming at this backwards... Show me significant original reporting by the Eurasian Times. Show me something that isn't just the views of other sources (including loony ones like Sputnik) chewed up and regurgitated. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 22:55, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::I never said it was reliable? What's with it with your tone? I'm just wondering whether it's reliable or not & I'm open to evidence & opinions from both sides. [[User:X750|X750]]. ''[[User talk:X750|Spin a yarn?]]'' ''<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/X750|Articles I've screwed over?]]</small></sub>'' 23:04, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::: This isn't a general forum for discussing source reliability. You should only bring a source here when a talk page discussion has been exhausted. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 23:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
{{Abot}}

== Wargamer/Pocket Tactics ==

I was asking this at the tea house, and I was sent here. Is [[Pocket Tactics]] generally reliable? I'm working on [[Draft:Doors (video game)]], and I'm trying to find sources for the gameplay section, as you need sources to explain how the game works. I found this. <ref>[[https://www.pockettactics.com/roblox/doors]]</ref> and I'm wondering if it is reliable. [[User:LeGoldenBoots|LeGoldenBoots]] ([[User talk:LeGoldenBoots|talk]]) 15:31, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
: I would say reliable within its specific area of expertise (video games) rather than generally reliable. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 19:29, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
* I don't pretend to be able the assess the reliability of websites and magazines devoted to video games. The website has been around for a while, and the chief editor and the author of the story do appear to have considerable experience in the field, but given the nature of the genre, its difficult to fit them into the usual criteria for reliable sources. The advice that you got at the Tea House is probably good - you don't need to have every source vetted at RSN. Go ahead and use it in your proposed article, and if the reliability of the source is challenged, discuss it on the article talk page. If consensus can't be reached there, then is the time to come back here for additional comments. Good luck on your article. [[User:Banks Irk|Banks Irk]] ([[User talk:Banks Irk|talk]]) 19:23, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}

== Glaukopis ==

A [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_328#Glaukopis_journal|previos discussion on Glaukopis]] was disrupted by a SP and didn't deliver a consensus. [[Glaukopis]] is currently used as RS in at least 17 WP articles (listed [[Talk:Jedwabne pogrom#Glaukopis list|here]]). In their controversial article on [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/25785648.2023.2168939 Wikipedia’s Intentional Distortion of the History of the Holocaust], [[Jan Grabowski]] and Shira Klein devote two pages to discussing Wikipedia's use of this source, which they claim {{tq|caters to, and is led by, the Polish extreme nationalistic right}}. [[WP:SCHOLARSHIP]] says that "Care should be taken with journals that exist mainly to promote a particular point of view". Is Glaukopis reliable? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 12:20, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

:Grabowski&Klein were themselves shown to be unreliable sources (more literally: utterly refuted), so should we believe them about Glaukopis? Are there some really reliable sources that agree with them about that journal? [[User:Arado Ar 196|<span style="color: blue; font-weight: bold;">a!</span>]]rado🦈 ([[Special:Contributions/Arado Ar 196|C]]✙[[User talk:Arado Ar 196|T]]) 14:28, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
:: I must have missed that, can you link the article which refutes them? [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 18:03, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
<u>'''Not'''e</u>: Icewhiz's intent was to make Glaukopis unrealible for Wikipiedia. That's what Icewhiz always wanted, because scholars who publish in Glaukopis don't accommodate Icewhiz's POV. '''The previous discussion on Glaukopis''' was disrupted by that <u>globally banned user (BobnotSnob - SP of Icewhiz)</u> who again advocated for the dismissal of Glaukopis as [[WP:RS]]. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 15:06, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
: Glaukopis is in fact unreliable for most use on Wikipedia. This weird position you've adopted where you're against everything Icewhiz was ever for is disruptive. [[User:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|Horse Eye&#39;s Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye&#39;s Back|talk]]) 18:06, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
*'''No''' - It appears from the reception section that there is an {{em|unanimous}} consensus among scholars that the journal disseminates far-right viewpoints. [[User:TrangaBellam|TrangaBellam]] ([[User talk:TrangaBellam|talk]]) 18:07, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
*'''Not reliable''' per above and the reasons in the last RSN. It's one of those fake far right journals like [[Mankind Quarterly]]. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 18:09, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
*'''No''' it does not seem to have a reputation for fact-checking. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 18:13, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

:Between having a very particular POV and not being [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=0&q=Glaukopis&hl=en&as_sdt=0,48 cited] very often it fails the sixth point of [[WP:SCHOLARSHIP]]. Unless someone can show peer reviews by the wider academic community it shouldn't be considered a reliable source. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 19:14, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
*'''No''' mostly per ActivelyDisinterested.  The non-sequitur about Icewhiz makes little to no difference about the assessment of the source.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 19:15, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

== RFC: ALA Office for Intellectual Freedom in re reasons for book bans ==

I bring this up here based on the (unchecked) assumption that this source is used for lots of articles (since lots of articles on artistic works have sections on their censorship).

In the article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grapes_of_Wrath#Censorship, we have a great many claims like

> That same year [1986], the book was challenged at the Moore County school system in Carthage, North Carolina because of the book's use of the phrase "God damn."

Which cites the page https://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks/classics, and the statement is presumably supported by

> Challenged at the Moore County school system in Carthage, NC (1986) because  the book contains the phase "God damn."

No other information is given.

I see no reason not to treat the ALA OIF as a RS for the purpose of where and when books are challenged or banned. The question is whether it is also R for the reasons for the challenge/ban.

I mean, I haven't actually caught them in an act of gross oversimplification or anything (yet), but how would I know? Suppose I wanted to verify that the aforementioned ban was because of the phrase "God damn" and for no other reason? Maybe there was some kind of school board meeting, and maybe it had recorded minutes, and maybe I could get a copy of them. Or maybe this was just the impression of some Moore County librarian who sent a report to the OIF, which was inaccurate due to the librarian being biased or stupid or something. In either case, did OIF investigate to verify the report? Are they any good at investigating? How would I even know? I mean, I get in general how I could in theory investigate and form an opinion; I'm just expressing my uncertainty for rhetorical purposes.

It makes sense to me that someone might try to ban Grapes of Wrath on the theory that it was communist propaganda, or that it portrayed a minister taking advantage of a woman. I don't support it of course (I find communist propaganda entertaining), but those seem like reasons people might actually try to ban or restrict a book. What seems odd is that someone would be opposed to the use of the phrase "God damn" but NOT either of the other two issues. Which makes me think this is somebody's gross oversimplification--either OIF itself or the reporter with OIF's uncritical acceptance--for the purpose of portraying censors as blundering cavemen. I know that in real life people are constantly surprising me with their stupidity, but I've seen plenty of gross oversimplification too.

The only info I could find giving insight as to the trustworthiness of the claims comes from OIF's FAQ

> The ALA's Office for Intellectual Freedom (OIF) receives reports from libraries, schools, and the media on attempts to ban books in communities across the country. We compile lists of challenged books in order to inform the public about censorship efforts that affect libraries and schools. 

This doesn't fill me with confidence. It's basically just "Claims come in. Maybe they are trustworthy. Maybe we check them. Then we report them." If they actually said "We investigate reports from libraries, schools, and the media..." then they would at least be _claiming_ to be a RS, but they don't. [[User:Dingsuntil|Dingsuntil]] ([[User talk:Dingsuntil|talk]]) 19:30, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
:So (and I want to make sure I understand you), you have no reason to think they make stuff up, but you do not think they are an RS? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 19:37, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
:Or to put it another way, you don't trust the [[WP:Secondary source]] so you want to go back to the [[WP:Primary source]]? That will require you to do some [[wp:original research]], will it not? --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|𝕁𝕄𝔽]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 19:43, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
::No. I have no reason to think they verify that the reports they receive are accurate. They don't even imply that they do this. And some of those reports could come from parts of the media which are already considered un-RS by Wikipedia (since they just come from "the media"). [[User:Dingsuntil|Dingsuntil]] ([[User talk:Dingsuntil|talk]]) 19:56, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

[https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IFx6JOw9QjsC&pg=PA194&lpg=PA194&dq=Moore+County+school+system+in+Carthage,+NC+%2B+grapes+of+wrath&source=bl&ots=67E1cpzO5T&sig=ACfU3U0kVngNS7gJTZ7iL7w8OAFfP6yxKQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjG6sWskNL9AhXZg1wKHcmRAew4ChDoAXoECAQQAw#v=onepage&q=Moore%20County%20school%20system%20in%20Carthage%2C%20NC%20%2B%20grapes%20of%20wrath&f=false] [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 19:48, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

:This appears to be a link to a book about book bans/challenges in general. Is it supposed to be a publication of the OIF or otherwise connected with it? It does not appear to bear out their claim on the reason for the ban in Carthage, although it doesn't contradict it either.
:If you want me to draw some particular conclusion from this, maybe say so. All I see is "Better sources than OIF's website exist." [[User:Dingsuntil|Dingsuntil]] ([[User talk:Dingsuntil|talk]]) 20:03, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

== Atlas Obscura ==

I've always been under the impression that we did not consider this reliable, but based on discussion at [[Template:Did you know nominations/Chemirocha]], would like to get further input on this. [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]] <sub> ''[[User talk:Hog Farm|Talk]]''</sub> 19:50, 10 March 2023 (UTC)