View source for Talk:Sarah Jane Baker

{{MOS-TW}}
{{DYK talk|8 November|2023|entry=... that when '''[[Sarah Jane Baker]]''' was released after 30 years, she was the United Kingdom's longest serving transgender prisoner?|nompage=Template:Did you know nominations/Sarah Jane Baker}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|blp=yes|class=B|collapsed=yes|1=
{{WikiProject Biography|living=yes|a&e-work-group=y|a&e-priority=Low|listas=Baker, Sarah Jane}}
{{WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject England|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Gender studies|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject LGBT|person=y}}
{{WikiProject London|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Sex|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Women}}
}}
{{page views}}

==Did you know nomination==
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Sarah Jane Baker}}

== Violation of Wikipedia's Manual of Style: Gender Identity ==
Please refer to the [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity]]. The article as written commits multiple violations of the manual of style regarding gender identity. From the style manual:

{{Blockquote |text=Avoid confusing constructions (Jane Doe fathered a child) by rewriting (e.g., Jane Doe became a parent)}}

My suggested re-write is: 

{{Blockquote |text=She escaped for three months, during which she had a son.}}

The style manual also notes regarding deadnaming:

{{Blockquote |If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc.), even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing exists. Treat the pre-notability name as a privacy interest separate from (and often greater than) the person's current name}}

Sarah Baker is only notable as the UK's longest serving transgender prisoner and as a transgender rights activist. Her article was created in 2023, a decade after her transition in 2013. As such, there is no need to use her deadname outside of the reference list. As written, the article uses her dead name in three places, in clear violation of Wikipedia's style guide.

Sarah Baker is also implicitly misgendered by being referred to twice "as assigned male at birth" rather than as a [[trans woman]]. She is also referred to as a "transgender female" rather than as a [[trans woman]] which is non-standard terminology.

The article as written also references Sarah Baker's gender identity unnecessarily often. Such references should be minimized, as per the style guide:

{{Blockquote |Outside the main biographical article, generally do not discuss in detail changes of a person's name or gender presentation unless pertinent. Where a person's gender may come as a surprise, explain it on first occurrence, without overemphasis.}}

Due to these issues, I strongly recommend revision to all or most of my suggested changes to the article. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 14:25, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

:(i) I would support the rewording that she {{tq|had a son}}.
:(ii) SJB is notable under her previous name, so this should be included. 
:(iii) Saying that someone was ‘assigned male/female at birth’ is not misgendering them. This complaint is completely misconceived. 
:[[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 11:23, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
::Mostly agree with Sweet6970, except {{tq|had a son}} could be misinterpreted as gave birth to a son; I think the current wording is better. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 11:26, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
:::(i) The current wording of "fathered" is in direct violation of the Wikipedia's Manual of Style on Gender Identity. This isn't ambiguous. The Manual of Style directly states not to use "fathered" to refer to a trans woman, as I quote above. Please read the Gender Identity section of the Manual of Style over if you are uncertain.
:::(ii) On what grounds is Sarah Baker notable under her previous name? The article states she is notable as a transgender rights activist and the UK's longest serving transgender prisoner. It logically follows from this that she was not notable before she transitioned.
:::(iii) "Assigned male at birth" states the gender Sarah Baker isn't (male) without specifying the gender she is (female). That is a form of misgendering. The Manual of Style makes it clear that trans  people are to be referred to by the gender they identify with. As such, Sarah Baker should be referred to as a trans woman rather assigned male at birth. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 13:19, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
::::In this case, I believe it is a clearer to use "fathered", to avoid ambiguity. Baker is notable because she received [[WP:SIGCOV]] prior to transitioning, but even if she wasn't the situation is also likely similar to [[Isla Bryson case]], where there was a consensus to use her former name due to her criminal activities, a key part of her notability, being committed under that name.
::::{{tq|"Assigned male at birth" states the gender Sarah Baker isn't (male) without specifying the gender she is (female). That is a form of misgendering.}} That seems like a stretch to me. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 13:27, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
:::::What you believe with respect to the use of the word "fathered" is directly contradicted by the manual of style. This is not about what you personally believe, but about what contradicts Wikipedia's style guides. This article is in violation of Wikipedia's style policies, as written.
:::::The exception for notability in the style guide for gender identity makes it clear that this exception is intended strictly for the case where people are very likely to have heard about the individual under their dead name. That isn't the case here, where her notability is because she is trans and a trans activist and for no other reason. If she was notable merely for her criminal record, this article would have been created a long time ago when she was arrested, but it was only created earlier this year, 10 years after her transition and after her release from prison.
:::::"That seems like a stretch to me" To say a trans woman is assigned male at birth specified the gender they don't identify with and not the gender they do identify with. This is a clear case of misgendering. You're disagreeing without providing a justification. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 13:32, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
::::::The manual of style is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply.
::::::She is notable under her former name as well, due to the book she published. An individual can be notable without receiving an article. As for "assigned male at birth"; we aren't gendering her by saying that, we are merely saying the gender she was assigned at birth - relevant and encyclopedic information. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 13:42, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I replied to the COI question on my talk page already.
:::::::I have explained my judgements with reference to the Wikipedia style guide. You have justified yours with reference to "common sense", which I am not violating with my suggested edits, I am doing my best to improve the quality of the article. 
:::::::I'm not sure we are going to come to a compromise on the issues in this article regarding the manual of style's advice on gender identity. I believe we should kick this up the chain. I'm going to flag the article for administrative review. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 13:46, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I agree that "fathered" sticks out unfavorably. We want to make it clear that she did not bear the child, but also honor her identity. There must be a better phrasing available that will do so in a respectful manner. I just don't know what it is. --[[User:Neopeius|Neopeius]] ([[User talk:Neopeius|talk]]) 15:28, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::The fact that she did not get pregnant is implied by the fact she's trans, so I'm not sure we need to specify explicitly that she did not get pregnant. But the article previously used "engendered". We could revert to engendered to use a more neutral term without loss of specificity. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 15:46, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::The style guide suggests "Jane Doe became a parent" which may be the most natural solution to this problem. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 15:48, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::The problem with that is that SJB didn't become a parent while an escapee from prison, nor have the son then. SJB's child was conceived then, but became a parent when the baby was born, at which time SJB was in prison again, having been returned there months earlier. 
:::::::::::SJB's notability began before transitioning. SJB's website sells a book under birth name Alan Baker, written & released when a cis male inmate of a male prison. This proves that SJB isn't trying to keep secret the previous, male name. [[User:Jim 2 Michael|Jim 2 Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim 2 Michael|talk]]) 01:47, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::{{yo|Jim 2 Michael}}My wording regarding the son was {{tq|  She escaped for three months, during which time she met a woman by whom she had a son.}} This does '''''not''''' say that the son was born during the 3 months – it says she '''met the woman''' during the 3 months. And only female bodies conceive i.e. become pregnant. Baker was never pregnant. The correct verb for the male is ‘beget’ (past tense begat or begot) but nowadays this word is rare outside the King James bible. So please self-revert: your change is unnecessary, and the wording you have chosen is not correct. [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 20:41, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Your wording will likely be seen as implying the son was born during the escape because it says she met a woman by whom she had a son during the three months. The wording in the lead in my latest edit is that the unnamed woman [[conceive]]d a son by Baker, which is true & doesn't go against any policies. Only male bodies impregnate, but the article is about a person described as a woman who impregnated a woman, so the wording can't be accurate without being awkward. I agree that we shouldn't use begat because it's an outdated word; another correct wording would be to say that Baker impregnated her. [[User:Jim 2 Michael|Jim 2 Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim 2 Michael|talk]]) 21:59, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::I agree that the wording will always be awkward in these circumstances, but I think it would be better to say that Baker impregnated the woman, as you have suggested, because that is clearer than the current version. [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 23:38, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::“Sired” [[User:Snokalok|Snokalok]] ([[User talk:Snokalok|talk]]) 11:35, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::I've changed it to ''she met a woman whom she impregnated''. It's bizarre to read, but makes clear the relevant facts that Baker met & impregnated the mother of his son during his escape, but that the son was born months later. [[User:Jim 2 Michael|Jim 2 Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim 2 Michael|talk]]) 13:35, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

== Violation of Wikipedia's Fundamental Principle of Neutral Point of View ==
The article as written commits multiple violations of NPOV in service of an anti-transgender agenda.

{{Blockquote|At the 8 July 2023 London Trans+ Pride Parade, Baker called for attendees to punch any [[TERF]] (a derogatory term for transgender critical feminists) they see in the face; her statement was videotaped and widely distributed.}}

Here the parenthetical statement should be removed as it is a gender critical feminist framing of the use of the acronym. The claim that TERF is a derogatory term for gender critical feminists, often stated succinctly as "TERF is a slur", is itself a strategic, gender critical talking point used to weaponize website moderation to shut down any critique of the views of gender critical feminists. TERF was in fact coined as a "deliberately technically neutral description". The term TERF is discussed in [[TERF (acronym)]] and [[Gender-critical feminism]] and so there is no need for this debate to be recapitulated in this article. A link to [[TERF (acronym)]] or [[Gender-critical feminism]] would suffice.

{{Blockquote|Asked for reaction, London Trans+ Pride organizers said that while they condemned violence, they supported her expression of what they referred to as her "righteous anger".}}

Here "what they referred to as" is an unnecessary hedge. The use of quotes by itself make it clear that it is London Trans+ Pride that is referring to her actions as "righteous anger". The addition of "what they referred to as" does not serve to clarify, rather it serves to imply doubt on the part of Wikipedia that the action constituted righteous anger, violating the NPOV principle.

{{Blockquote|She led a protest at the inaugural event of transgender critical feminist philosopher's Kathleen Stock's The Lesbian Project, where her violent history contributed to Stock's nerves.}}

Once again, this sentence violates NPOV. Here with the use of the phrase "where her violent history contributed to Stock's nerves" we are adopting a framing of Sarah Baker as the aggressor/perpetrator of violence and Kathleen Stock as a victim. This is, if anything, a reversal of the objective framing, as Stock is a leading figure in a hate movement dedicated to the elimination of human rights protections for transgender people such as Sarah Baker. The framing in the article privileges imagined, hypothetical violence against Stock over the actual violence of Stock's political movement against a marginalized population. A simple fix would be to shorten this sentence to "She led a protest at the inaugural event of gender critical feminist philosopher's Kathleen Stock's The Lesbian Project." and thereby avoid adopting the anti-transgender perspective on the protest. 

Due to these issues, I strongly recommend revision to all or most of my suggested changes to the article. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 14:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

:(i) ‘TERF’ is a slur, and is obviously intended as such in the context of ‘Punch a TERF’.   
:(ii) Regarding ‘{{tq|what they referred to as her righteous anger}}’: it is not clear that this is the view of London Trans Pride unless this is specifically stated. We should ''not'' have this in wikivoice – that would be a very serious breach of NPOV.
:(iii) Your comments about Kathleen Stock are potentially defamatory, and I suggest you strike them.
:(iv) Regarding ‘{{tq|where her violent history contributed to Stock's nerves}}’: this should, perhaps, be attributed to Kathleen Stock. I don’t have access to the source – do you have a suggestion for an attributed wording?  
:[[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 16:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
::(i) The claim TERF is a slur is not NPOV, but is instead a gender critical talking point, and is contentious. See [[TERF_(acronym)#Slur_debate]] for discussion.
::(ii) The use of "said that" in the following sentence,
::{{Blockquote|Asked for reaction, London Trans+ Pride organizers said that while they condemned violence, they supported her expression of what they referred to as her "righteous anger".}}
::establishes that London Trans+ Pride organizers said that it was righteous anger, and makes it clear that it is not Wikipedia voice.
::Perhaps this could be-written as, for clarity:
::{{Blockquote|Asked for reaction, London Trans+ Pride organizers said that "We do not condone violence...We do condone righteous anger and the right to the free speech".}}
::(iii) The statements I made of Stock are straightforwardly factual, it is not controversial that Stock is a notable figure in the British gender critical feminist movement, which is a movement dedicated to the removal of human rights for transgender people, and has been identified by the Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention as a [https://www.lemkininstitute.com/statements-new-page/statement-on-the-genocidal-nature-of-the-gender-critical-movement’s-ideology-and-practice genocidal political movement]. These statements are also much less incendiary than other statements made on this very talk page.
::(iv) The article should not include Stock's perspective on the protest without also including trans perspectives from the same protest for balance in order to maintain NPOV. After searching coverage of the counter-protest, I haven't found an authoritative source for Sarah Baker ''leading'' the counter-protest as claimed in this Wikipedia article. The counter-protest to Stock's event was organized under the name the Dyke Project and has anonymous leadership. If Baker was merely attending the protest, Baker attending a protest is not in itself an event of sufficient notability to merit inclusion in the article, even if it made Stock "concerned". If so, all mention of this protest should be removed for lack of notability and relevance.[[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 16:35, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
:::(i) The article on [[TERF (acronym)]] says: {{tq|the term is now typically considered derogatory or disparaging}} and the SJB article reflects this by saying that the term  is derogatory.
:::(ii) I would accept the rewording to include the actual quote.
:::(iii) The statements you have made about Kathleen Stock are defamatory. She does '''''not''''' lead a ‘hate movement’, '''''nor''''' does she advocate for ‘the elimination of human rights protections for transgender people’. I don’t think that the The Lemkin Institute source says this, and in any event, it is not an authoritative source. 
:::(iv) I would like to see the source before commenting on this.
:::[[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 11:43, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
::::(i) There is a complex debate on the TERF acronym page, which also notes that the acronym was coined as a deliberately neutral term. There is no need for the Sarah Baker page to take a stance on the TERF acronym when it can simply link to the extensive discussion on the TERF acronym page.
::::(ii) Thanks.
::::(iii) Stock is a leading figure in the gender-critical movement. The Lemkin Institute does not discuss Stock specifically, but identifies the gender-critical movement as a genocidal movement. If you have a more authoritative source to suggest for discussing genocide, I am all ears. Wikipedia also has an article on [[transgender genocide]] that discusses the topic in the context of the current political climate. The [https://www.antihate.ca/about Canadian Anti-Hate Network] and the [https://www.splcenter.org Southern Poverty Law Center], both organizations dedicated to monitoring hate movements in Canada and the USA respectively identify gender critical and trans-exclusionary feminists as anti-trans hate groups.
::::(iv) I have managed to get ahold of the source. Here's the relevant passage quoted from the Times:
::::{{blockquote|Stock produces a baseball cap and sunglasses. “It’s my Kendall Roy look.” Because at 6ft tall, androgynous, with cropped grey hair, she is a striking woman. In her home town she’s left alone. But The Lesbian Project, which she recently co-founded to “stop women getting erased from the LGBT rainbow”, receives vicious threats and a protest at its inaugural event was led by Sarah Jane Baker, a trans activist who served 30 years for torture, kidnap and attempted murder.}}
::::{{blockquote|Is she nervous? “Yes!” she cries, then tells Rob and me not to be too nice “or I’m likely to cry”. She says Oxford has never been a happy place for her: it was where she delivered her first ever philosophy paper to “terrifying Oxford postgrad students who were cerebral and robotic. I was nearly sick.” Stock is an odd mix of steely and vulnerable. She’s no bombastic, come-at-me blowhard like Jordan Peterson, who courts controversy, surfs opprobrium. When, as a philosophy professor at Sussex University, she published her first gender-critical blog, causing students and colleagues to denounce her, Stock fell into depression, wept and drank too much gin. Yet — as she told me two years ago — she wouldn’t, couldn’t recant. In fact, she kept writing: “I had to keep meeting every blow.”}}
::::So the Times article does in fact claim Sarah Baker was leading the protest. The article does not, however, claim that Sarah Baker made Stock nervous. The interviewer asks if Stock is nervous, she says yes, but she doesn't say Baker is making her nervous. So the claim that Baker made Stock nervous is original to this Wikipedia article and should be removed.
::::The claim that Sarah Baker lead the protest is in the Times article, but is dubious. All other articles I've read on the [https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/03/26/the-lesbian-project-the-dyke-project/ counter-protest] attribute leadership of the [https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/lesbian-support-trans-rights-campaigners-b1091335.html counter-protest] to [https://www.instagram.com/thedykeproject/ the Dyke Project]. The only individual organizer who has taken credit for the counter-protest by name is [https://novaramedia.com/contributor/jess-elliott/ Jess Elliot], not Sarah Baker. The Times article is the only coverage of the protest that mentions Sarah Baker and the Times' claim that Sarah Baker lead the protest is contradicted by these other sources. In attempting to source The Times' claim that Baker lead the protest, I inevitably found myself on anti-trans hate website, where the claim that Baker lead the protest seems to originate. This claim is from video taken of the protestors without permission or adequate protection of the privacy of the filmed individuals. The individual that the hate website claimed as Baker leading the protect was an individual acting as a protest marshal, as near as I could discern, and that does not demonstrate that she lead/organized this protect. In sum: we don't know that Baker lead the protest, we don't know that Baker made Stock nervous, and this article is not intended to be a comprehensive list of all of the protests Baker attended, and thus this protest is of insufficient notability to be included in this page. Stock's page can mention this protest, as it may be important to detailing her page, but it's not an important moment in Baker's history. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 14:37, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
:::::I will go ahead and make change (ii), rewording to use the actual quote from London Pride+. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 14:57, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
::::::(i) There is nothing wrong with the current wording saying that TERF is derogatory – this should remain unaltered.
::::::(ii) Thanks for making the amendment.
::::::(iii) Your arguments in no way justify your comments about Kathleen Stock. See [[WP:BLP]]. 
::::::(iv) Thank you for providing the extract from the ''Times'' source. Basing my comments on the extract you have provided, I would say that we should delete {{tq|where her violent history contributed to Stock's nerves}}, as this is not justified by the source. As the ''Times'' says SJB led the protest, and this is not contradicted by the other sources you have provided, this should stay. 
::::::(v) A comment regarding '''minor''' edits. Edits should only be marked '''m''' when it is improbable that they would ever be disputed. So this means just obvious typos and bad grammar. The edits you have marked '''m''' can, and have, been disputed. See [[WP:MINOR]].
::::::[[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 21:17, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

== Malapropism: Transgender Critical Feminist ==
In multiple places, the article incorrectly uses the term "transgender critical feminist". The correct term is [[gender-critical feminist]]. The phrase "transgender critical feminist" in fact implies a feminist who is transgender and engages in [https://journals.library.columbia.edu/index.php/citationalpractice/whycriticalfeminism#:~:text=Critical%20feminist%20pedagogy%20asks%20how,academia%20and%20normative%20pedagogical%20practices). critical feminism]. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 14:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
:Yes, I think you're right on this point. [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 11:45, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
::I will go ahead and make this correction and only this correction in the article. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 13:21, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

== Contentious Labels ==
As discussed in [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Contentious_labels]]:

{{Blockquote|Rather than describing an individual using the subjective and vague term controversial, instead give readers information about relevant controversies. Make sure, as well, that reliable sources establish the existence of a controversy and that the term is not used to grant a fringe viewpoint undue weight}}

As such, I recommend re-writing the following sentence:

{{Blockquote|After her release in 2019, Baker became an outspoken and controversial political and transgender rights activist.}}

My suggested re-write is as follows:

{{Blockquote|After her release in 2019, Baker became an outspoken [[transgender rights activist]].}}

This change removes "controversial" (which is a vague and subjective term) as the article already does enough to establish why Baker might be controversial given her history of legal trouble.

Additionally, the word "political" in this sentence is redundant, as transgender rights activism is inherently political. I also suggest making [[transgender rights activist]] a hyperlink to the relevant Wikipedia article.

Furthermore, the article opens with the lead sentence:

{{Blockquote | Sarah Jane Baker (born in 1969 or 1970) is a British transgender rights activist, former violent felon and long term prison inmate, author, and artist.}}

As noticed in Words to Watch,

{{Blockquote | Value-laden labels – such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, sexist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion – may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution.}}

As such, I recommend removing "former violent felon". While technically correct, it is a value-laden label that does not explain why Sarah Baker is notable, as a lead sentence ought to. Violent felon is entailed by the details of Baker's criminal history, and so does not need to be stated here. To better explain Sarah Baker's notability in the opening sentence and avoid value-laden terminology, I suggest the following re-write:

{{Blockquote | Sarah Jane Baker (born in 1969 or 1970) is a British transgender rights activist, author, artist, the UK's longest serving transgender prisoner.}} 

This re-write makes the lead sentence consistent with the infobox's "'''Known for''': UK's longest serving transgender prisoner" section. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 15:28, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

:I would support the removal of the word ‘controversial’. The expression ‘former violent felon’ is not a ‘value laden label’ – it is simply factual, and should stay. [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 15:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 15:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
:::I am going to remove controversial, changing the sentence to:
:::After her release in 2019, Baker became an outspoken [[transgender rights activist]].
:::My next edit will consist of only this change. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 14:48, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
::::I want to restore political; she's a political candidate, and not limited to trans issues. [[User:GRuban|GRuban]] ([[User talk:GRuban|talk]]) 13:50, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
:::::ah, i was confused as to what political meant. Would something like this work:
:::::After her release in 2019, Baker became an outspoken [[transgender rights activist]] and political candidate. [[Special:Contributions/134.117.247.225|134.117.247.225]] ([[User talk:134.117.247.225|talk]]) 14:10, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
:::::I do not object to referring to her as a ‘political’ activist in the lead, but her non-trans political activity seems to be minor compared to her activity on transgender matters, so I don’t think this should be in the first sentence. The lead does actually say, at the end, that she is a ‘{{tq|political candidate}}', but I don’t think this is accurate – she has announced her intention to run as an independent candidate. Since she has no party to represent, I don’t think she would count as a candidate until an election has been called and she has filed nomination papers. So I think this should be amended to ‘{{tq|has announced her intention to stand for Parliament as an independent candidate in the Richmond Park constituency.}}' [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 14:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
::::::I'd be fine with that, personally. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 14:20, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
:::::::A bit long as a summary IMHO, how about [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Sarah_Jane_Baker&diff=prev&oldid=1179649409 this]? [[User:GRuban|GRuban]] ([[User talk:GRuban|talk]]) 14:47, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
::::::::That looks good to me at least. [[User:Suphlatus|Suphlatus]] ([[User talk:Suphlatus|talk]]) 15:08, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

== Query ==
I would really appreciate any information you could give me regarding sexual offenders treatment.. I am part of a research team from teeside university, if possible we would really appreciate to hear from the inside rather than trusting the gov data.. many thanks <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:86.14.92.66|86.14.92.66]] ([[User talk:86.14.92.66#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/86.14.92.66|contribs]]) 19:34, 18 October 2023 (UTC)</small>
: This is the Wikipedia page ''about'' Sarah Jane Baker, not a way to contact her. It should give her personal website prominently in the infobox, which website does have her email contact information. That said, I attempted to use that email contact information weeks ago without response; but it's the best I have. Best of luck. --[[User:GRuban|GRuban]] ([[User talk:GRuban|talk]]) 21:09, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

== Alleged "FAQ" ==
There was a [[Talk:Sarah Jane Baker/FAQ|"FAQ"]] presented at the top of this talk page as if it is the result of consensus. It wasn't - it was written by one editor a few days ago and transcluded. This gives a false impression of talk page consensus, when it's a single editor positing an opinion. As such, I've unlinked it. If the editor wants to posit opinions on the page, they should do so with their signature as one editor's opinion, rather than falsely creating the impression of a broad consensus - let alone citing it in an edit message as if it was anything other than their personal views - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 16:42, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

== TERF ==
The text {{tq|'Baker called for attendees to punch any [[TERF]] ("trans-exclusionary radical feminist", typically considered derogatory) they see in the face'}} is hard to read because of the multi-claused parenthetical statement splitting up the sentence. I think we could make three improvements.

Firstly would be to report exactly what Baker said. This isn't straightforward as many news media blank out the expletive to varying degrees (e.g. [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66676737 BBC] and [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/09/trans-pride-defends-activist-who-told-crowd-to-punch-terfs/ Telegraph], [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/city-of-london-pride-trafalgar-square-richmond-b2402713.html Independent] and [https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/07/11/london-trans-pride-sarah-jane-barker-terf/ Pink News]). Some simply report she asked the crowed to "Punch a Terf" as though that's actually the words she said. Rowan Moore, [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/15/whats-the-point-of-northstowe writing in The Guardian], doesn't shy from writing out the words, but it's an opinion piece. Anyone got a reliable source that spells it out? Would it be reasonable for us to assume what "f******" or "f**king" is? If so, I think the best text would be for us to say {{tq|'Baker asked the crowd "if you see a [[TERF (acronym)|TERF]], punch them in the fucking face"'}}. The coarse language is very much part of the statement and Wikipedia is not censored.

Secondly, I think the TERF word linking needs fixed, as I did just above. When editors originally wrote this, it linked to the <code><nowiki>[[TERF]]</nowiki></code> article, which explained the meaning of the label and the controversies surrounding it. But its content was recently moved entirely to [[TERF (acronym)]]. [[TERF]] currently redirects to [[Gender-critical feminism]], which is an article on this controversial branch of feminism. Baker here is clearly using it in the more general sense that the [https://www.oed.com/dictionary/terf_n?tl=true OED] has of anyone perceived as hostile to transgender people, rather than asking the crowd to locate some radical feminists and enquire as to how trans-exclusionary their definition of feminism is.

Lastly, I don't think we need the parenthetical at all. Anyone who has got this far in the article clearly is interested in the topic and knows what a TERF is. Frankly you'd have to have been living in a cave to not know in 2023. Explaining the nuance of "Well, in 2008 it originally meant someone who was a radical feminist and excluded trans women from the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival, but today it means, well, anyone who is or is perceived to be in any way trans hostile." is not really the purpose of this article, and certainly doesn't fit in a parenthetical remark in the middle of a sentence. -- [[User:Colin|Colin]]°[[User talk:Colin|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 15:49, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
:I agree with changing the ‘TERF’ link to the acronym article.
:I disagree that anyone who has got that far into the article knows what a TERF is. My impression is that most members of the general public don’t follow this controversy that closely. We should not assume such knowledge in our readers. So I would keep the explanation.
:As for what she actually said: it’s quite clear from this video,[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsw3pdpxf64 ]  even though it is bleeped. It is reasonable to assume that ‘f**king’ is ‘fucking’, and I think it is reasonable to  have the word in full in our article. [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 16:29, 2 November 2023 (UTC)   
:[[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 16:29, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
::Well, we do wikilink words on Wikipedia for a reason. We don't, for example, explain what [[NATO]] is, every time we mention it, but we do link to the article. Readers don't actually need to know exactly what NATO is, and may only have a vague idea, in order to understand text that refers to it. We aren't talking about most members of the general public here, but people who have waded through the sorry biography of someone who has spent most of their life in prison and is notable, if that's the right word, for various criminal acts, for their transition while in prison, and this inflammatory remark. I can't really imagine anyone doing that and going "Oh heck, I have no idea whatsoever what a TERF is". Even if they have a vague feeling that it is "someone who hates trans people" that's quite in keeping with Baker's usage.  If you think we need to explain the term here, and it can't be done with the better link, then what do you propose?  A footnote is one option but I don't think that's any improvement on linking to [[TERF (acronym)]]. -- [[User:Colin|Colin]]°[[User talk:Colin|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 16:54, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
:::I can imagine it. I agree that the current wording is awkward, but unfortunately I can’t think of a better one, so I am in favour of keeping it. [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 10:46, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
::::I've edited to include the full quote and moved a parenthetical, sourced to OED, on the TERF word to a subsequent sentence. [[User:Colin|Colin]]°[[User talk:Colin|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 12:22, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::That's fine by me. [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 13:08, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
{{yo|Stephen}} Re your revert of my revert of your edit: this was discussed on this Talk page. I am not aware of any policy reason why the information should be excluded. Please explain your precise objection to including this information in the article. [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 11:53, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Since there has been no response to my comment, presumably there is no objection to me reinstating the deleted text. [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 14:53, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
:Wrt Stephen's edit summary on his second attempt to remove the text ("no, we don't do inline dictionary definitions"), well sometimes we do. Although we are a hyperlinked encyclopaedia, we still expect the general reader to follow the text without having to click all the time. This, though, is context dependent on the complexity of the article subject and whether it is the lead or at the end of the body text, and how essential it is to understand the term. A medical article might well explain, in text, what some jargon term for a device or procedure or symptom means, rather than rely on a link. Here, as I noted already, I'd be very very surprised if a reader got this far without having some idea of what a TERF is or at least why some people are called TERFs. But I don't think the revised text is the awful parenthetical definition-sandwich we had before, so am not fussed if it stays or goes. [[User:Stephen|Stephen]], don't edit war. Sweet6970, it might have been helpful to direct Stephen to this discussion rather than argue with him in an edit summary. -- [[User:Colin|Colin]]°[[User talk:Colin|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 17:04, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
::Can y'all remind specifically what the current and proposed text is, please? I've not been following things as closely as I'd like and I've lost track of the discussion. — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]]</span> <small>(he/him; [[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]])</small></span> 20:28, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
:::The wording which was deleted is {{tq| (The word "TERF" is an acronym for 'trans-exclusionary radical feminist', but more generally is a derogatory term for someone who is or is considered to be hostile to transgender people.)}}, which was immediately after: {{tq| At the 8th of July 2023 London Trans+ Pride Parade, Baker gave a speech to the crowd where she said "if you see a TERF, punch them in the fucking face", a statement that was videotaped and widely distributed.}} [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 20:33, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
::::Thank you. I agree that it probably makes sense to have that context inline, but I could live with it a link to the article [[TERF]] instead. But to answer your original question, no objection here to the reinstatement. — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]]</span> <small>(he/him; [[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]])</small></span> 19:41, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::I have now reinstated the inf. [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 20:47, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

== Attack on stepuncle ==
The article gives no indication of the motive for the attack for which Baker & three others were imprisoned. They aimed to find Baker's stepmother, so why was that very quickly replaced with kidnapping & torturing the stepmother's brother? When they arrived at the stepmother's residence, how could they have thought something like ''We're here to find her, so it's disappointing she's not here. Oh, forget about her - I have a much better idea: we'll kidnap & torture her brother instead.''? [[User:Jim 2 Michael|Jim 2 Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim 2 Michael|talk]]) 19:12, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
:Not detailed in source, but the obvious  hypothesis is they presumed he knew where she was, and wanted him to tell. --[[User:GRuban|GRuban]] ([[User talk:GRuban|talk]]) 21:21, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
::Wanting to find someone is a common situation. The vast majority of people in such a situation wouldn't even think of kidnapping & torturing a relative of the sought person whilst trying to do so. Baker clearly had a severely deprived upbringing & wasn't close to the father & even less close to the stepmother, so going to extreme lengths to find her makes no sense either. This article doesn't say what subsequently happened regarding the father & stepmother. It also only mentions the mother in regard to her being found & visiting Baker in prison in her later life before dying. It says nothing of why or when she previously disappeared from Baker's life. [[User:Jim 2 Michael|Jim 2 Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim 2 Michael|talk]]) 13:35, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Correct. I could write only what I found in sources, and was not able to find anything about those interesting questions. There could actually be more about some of that in Baker's books, so if you're interested enough to read those, please do follow up here, and we may be able to add that to our article. --[[User:GRuban|GRuban]] ([[User talk:GRuban|talk]]) 16:56, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

== Needles, but not pencils? ==
The Imprisonment section says that, due to having [[self-harm]]ed, Baker wasn't allowed access to pencils in prison, yet was allowed to use needles. That makes no sense - it's easier to self-harm using needles than pencils. [[User:Jim 2 Michael|Jim 2 Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim 2 Michael|talk]]) 13:35, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

== Deadname ==
Is her deadname notable enough for inclusion? While she was clearly convicted under her birth name, surely she is only notable for her transgender status and activism (including being a relatively-high profile trans woman in the UK's male prison estate), so the inclusion fails [[MOS:DEADNAME]].

I'm going to remove it from the lead and infobox now, but I think we should probably remove it from the first sentence of "Early life" too. — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]]</span> <small>(he/him; [[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]])</small></span> 19:49, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
:I've explained in two of my edit summaries this month why the first name that Baker had for 44 years should be included. Notability began under that name. Baker's website advertises a book written & published whilst in prison, whose front cover includes the original name & a pre-transition photo. [[User:Jim 2 Michael|Jim 2 Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim 2 Michael|talk]]) 21:30, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
::Perhaps you could demonstrate this with some reliable sources Jim? I've tried searching for RS that use Baker's former name, both those that pre-date the creation of the article on 14 July 2023 and published after and cannot find any. Baker does not appear to have been notable at all under her former name. [[User:Sideswipe9th|Sideswipe9th]] ([[User talk:Sideswipe9th|talk]]) 21:40, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
::Actually on BLPPRIVACY and BLPNAME grounds, I've {{diff2|1184990605|removed}} Baker's former name. I can't find any reliable sources that use it, only low quality tabloids (Daily Mail, Scottish Sun, etc), and other unreliable sources. It's better to be safe than sorry in situations such as this. The question in my previous reply still applies though. [[User:Sideswipe9th|Sideswipe9th]] ([[User talk:Sideswipe9th|talk]]) 21:51, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Two BBC refs in the article relating to absconding from an open prison in 2007 state Baker's then name. [[User:Jim 2 Michael|Jim 2 Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim 2 Michael|talk]]) 22:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
::::Passing mentions in very short articles like that would not contribute to notability. As a separate issue, it also doesn't establish any sort of link between the two names, but that's not entirely surprising given the age of the sources. [[User:Sideswipe9th|Sideswipe9th]] ([[User talk:Sideswipe9th|talk]]) 22:54, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
She is not ''only'' notable for her transgender status and activism, she is also notable as an author, whose works have been internationally reviewed, the first of which was published under her birth name, and a violent felon in multiple instances which also received noticeable coverage. Specifically, before her transition, and using her birth name she:
* kidnapped and tortured a man - which received indepth coverage
* attempted to murder another man - which received nontrivial coverage
* raped a third man - which received nontrivial coverage
* escaped from prison - this is the only event that could be considered minor coverage
* published a book when in prison - which received non-trivial and international reviews
The reliable sources don't require "searching for" since they are in the article. Every source before 2017 uses her birth name, and they are numerous, and mostly non-trivial. --[[User:GRuban|GRuban]] ([[User talk:GRuban|talk]]) 14:00, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
:Agree with GRuban. Particularly, when you release [https://books.google.com/books?id=D8vithJ7Fh8C&source=gbs_navlinks_s a book / e-book under a certain name], I don't see how [[WP:BLPNAME]] or [[WP:BLPPRIVACY]] can apply to that name, which has been '''widely disseminated''' to the public via the book. Within the book there is a letter "To My Victims" which is signed off with that name as well, June 2013. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|RUN]])''' 07:27, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

== Treatment in prison  ==

Regarding the recently re-added text:{{tq| In November 2023 it was reported that a prison doctor, employed by the private company Practice Plus Group has refused to prescribe her oestogen. saying they would only prescribe testosterone, forcing her to detransition}}
What the source actually says is:{{tq| The Free Sarah Jane Baker (FSJB) campaign says the activist “is suffering severe menopausal symptoms” now that her estrogen treatment has been stopped by physicians at the high-security men’s prison (HMP) where she’s incarcerated.}} and {{tq|“The only treatment she is being offered to manage this is testosterone, at a dose that would give her the same level as if she still had testes,” a campaign statement reads.}}
So, according to the source, the information that SJB’s oestrogen treatment has been stopped is from the ‘Free Sarah Jane Baker’ campaign – the source does not say that they have verified what the campaign says. I think this is sufficiently dubious that I would not include this in our article, and I am deleting it.  
 
But if we are going to have anything about this in our article, we have to say something like: {{tq|According to the Free Sarah Jane Baker campaign, as at November 2023 Baker’s oestrogen treatment has been stopped; the healthcare practice providing services to the prison said this was a ‘temporary measure’. }} But I’m not convinced that we should be including in our article material that is sourced to a campaign organisation. [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 13:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Herewith the source. [https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2023/11/trans-woman-forced-to-detransition-in-prison-while-doctors-try-to-inject-her-with-testosterone/] [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 16:07, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:That's not sourced to a campaign organisation; it's sourced to a news organisation, ''[[LGBTQ Nation]]''.
:I'd suggest: {{tqb|According to the Free Sarah Jane Baker campaign, {{as of|2023|11|lc=y|post=,}} Baker’s oestrogen treatment has been stopped and she has instead been offered testosterone, which the campaign describe as "amounting to a medical detransition". The healthcare practice providing services to the prison said this was a "temporary measure while the healthcare team fulfils their duty of care to ensure that the benefits of any drugs we prescribe outweigh any risks".}}
:This makes both perspectives clear in a little more detail than your proposed text, but without pushing either, I think. — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]]</span> <small>(he/him; [[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]])</small></span> 21:21, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::When I said the inf was sourced to a campaign organisation, I meant that the source for ''LGBTQ Nation’s''  story was the Free Sarah Jane Baker campaign, so the ultimate source is a campaign organisation.         
::I would accept your wording, except for the quote ‘amounting to a medical transition’, because the wording in ''LGBTQ Nation'' is {{tq|They say the protocol “amounts to a medical detransition.”}} So instead of {{tq| which the campaign describe as "amounting to a medical detransition".}} I would have {{tq|which the campaign says “amounts to a medical transition”}}. [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 13:34, 16 November 2023 (UTC) 
::I am also uneasy about adding information about someone’s medical treatment unless we have unequivocal evidence that they consent to this being publicised. [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 16:23, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:::The reason we use secondary reliable sources is because there's an editorial process involved. If ''LGBTQ Nation'' believe the campaign organisation's description merits printing, it has been through that editorial process and thus we can cite it in wikivoice.
:::I'm happy with either wording; I personally prefer that we make minimal changes to an opening verb to make a sentence flow better, but I know that is not a universally-held opinion and your proposed wording fits closer to the original wording, so is probably better overall.
:::While I would be uncomfortable sharing medical information from, say, a gossip blog, without confirmation that the source consents to it, when a notable BLP subject's medical information is being reported (with other publications also having picked the story up now: [https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/11/12/sarah-jane-baker-prison-detransition/ ''Pink News''], [https://thepinktimes.com/sarah-jane-baker-faces-denial-of-hormone-treatments-in-prison/ ''The Pink Times''] and [https://avmag.gr/trans-kratoumeni-katangellei-iatriko-prosopiko-gia-detransition/ ''AntiVirus''] {{in lang|el}}) and the information originally sourced to an organisation that campaigns on behalf of the subject, I think it is reasonable both to publish that information if it is encyclopædic and to assume Baker's consent nonetheless. — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]]</span> <small>(he/him; [[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]])</small></span> 10:27, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
::::Thank you for your comment. I was wondering why ''PinkNews'' had not picked it up- I searched a few days ago, and did not find anything from that publication. I see they are very cautious – referring to ‘allegations’. But I think that the proposed wording would cover that. I suggest we also use ''PinkNews'' as a source. [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 13:51, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

== Updating short description to Baker's current circumstance ==

I have included updated information that has been one of the most widely published pieces of information about SJB and is included further down. Her page has been visited much more in response to these article on her speech made at trans pride and I believe it has been taken down in bad faith. 

"She was arrested after a speech at [[London Trans+ Pride]] in 2023, and charged with "commissioning an offence". She was found not guilty of the charge, but recalled to prison because she was on probation."[https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/trans-activist-sarah-jane-baker-not-guilty-terf-pride-speech-b1104065.html]


This was the subject of many national and local news sites and is something that many people will be visiting her wiki page for confirmation.  [[User:Twistflam|Twistflam]] ([[User talk:Twistflam|talk]]) 17:40, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
:This  material was already included in the article under ‘Re-imprisonment’. Also, your version is incorrect – she is not ‘on probation’ – she was on parole. [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 17:48, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
::Exactly so it should be included in the short description to reflect current events. I will edit to "on-licence" which is the correct term for someone serving a life sentence in the community. [[User:Twistflam|Twistflam]] ([[User talk:Twistflam|talk]]) 20:04, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] I think the wording there was mine, and my mistake.  Thank you for pointing it out. [[User:Escape_Orbit|<span style="color: green;">Escape Orbit</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Escape_Orbit|(Talk)]]</sup> 20:17, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

== Discussion at BLP Noticeboard ==

There  is a discussion going on about the editing of this article at [[WP:BLPN]] [[User:Sweet6970|Sweet6970]] ([[User talk:Sweet6970|talk]]) 18:06, 23 November 2023 (UTC)