View source for Talk:Baccarat

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{{old move|date=12 July 2021|from=Baccarat (card game)|destination=Baccarat|result=moved|link=Special:Permalink/1034225069#Requested move 12 July 2021}}

== Opening comments==
This article is unclear on how the house/croupier makes money; what is the house cut? It is also unclear on whether or not the money in the bank is withdrawn by the banker when he "retires" or whether it is passed to the next banker. These rules need an overall, high-order "summary" before the start, as in "the object of the game is to get... and the structure of the game is...". Thanks in advance!

I re-wrote the opening two sections as it was unclear. I hope it makes a little more sense now.

==Punters?==
The use of the term 'punter' in the context of this game is highly inappropriate.

And why is that? It is a term commonly used for a player in a casino and it is at least kinder than saying "sucker." [[Special:Contributions/67.130.101.194|67.130.101.194]] ([[User talk:67.130.101.194|talk]]) 15:54, 12 December 2008 (UTC) Will in New Haven [[Special:Contributions/67.130.101.194|67.130.101.194]] ([[User talk:67.130.101.194|talk]]) 15:54, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

==Baccarat Cards==
I was allways under the impression that baccarat cards were numberless and had a more "classy" look to them than regular playing cards.
: Oh really? LOL.
Is there any information regarding classic baccarat cards versus what is probably more of a "use whatever deck you can get your hands on" scenario?
:In North America, there are no special baccarat cards that I've ever seen. Must be a European thing. [[User:Realkyhick|Realkyhick]] 08:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
:: Some Las Vegas casinos do have special Baccarat cards, but the only thing "special" about them is normally that the word "Baccarat" appears under the casino's name and logo on the cardbacks.  Sometimes Baccarat cards are laminated paper while all other cards at a casino are plastic; this is to accommodate the predilection of Baccarat players for bending and tearing the cards.  [[User:Heather|Heather]] ([[User talk:Heather|talk]]) 16:39, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

==Copyright infringement==
The rules to Chemin are taken from http://www.hotlib.com/articles/show.php?t=Baccarat_Chemin_De_Fer_-_Rules_Of_The_Game

They are also make no sense! [[User:Damiancorrigan|Damiancorrigan]] 13:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
:They are also make no sense??!??
:I've removed it. It wasn't very good anyway, someone who understands the game and can write properly should write something in.[[User:Damiancorrigan|Damiancorrigan]] 10:51, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
What more of a reference do you want? Article is by J Finney, a well known casino writer.[[User:Damiancorrigan|Damiancorrigan]] 21:14, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
::This article predates what you cite by several years. Please look at the history of the page before removing large sections of articles that are sourced, in this case apparently taken from a 1911 Britannica article. [[User:2005|2005]] 22:31, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
:::Glad you finally found the Talk page. The text is widely referenced as being by Finney, I can't tell how to work out when exactly the other page was made. But what I CAN say, is that it is the worst piece of writing I have ever seen, and is in dire need of a clean up. [[User:Damiancorrigan|Damiancorrigan]] 22:48, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
::::Go to the top of the article page (not this discussion page), click the history link, scroll down to the first page creation, you would find this page http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Baccarat&oldid=34699 which shows the text was inserted then and taken from that 1911 source referenced in various articles. Whether it is coherent or not and needs cleanup is of course a different isssue. :) In the future if you add a "see discussion" comment to your edit summary that would be helpful if you explain the edit in discussion rather than the edit summary. [[User:2005|2005]] 22:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
:::::But that isn't the same text as in the article today! Have you actually read what you are refering to?
1911: "The banker places before him the sum he wishes to stake and the punters do likewise, unless a punter desires to go bank, signifying his intention by saying, Banco"
Today's version: "The dealer places before him the amount he is disposed to risk, and the players "make their stakes." Any punter, beginning with the player on the immediate right of the dealer, is entitled to say "Banco", meaning to "go bank," to play against the whole of the banker's stake."
http://www.hotlib.com/articles/show.php?t=Baccarat_Chemin_De_Fer_-_Rules_Of_The_Game: "The dealer places before him the amount he is disposed to risk and the players "make their stakes." Any punter, beginning with the player on the immediate right of the dealer, is entitled to say "Banco", meaning to "go bank," to play against the whole of the banker's stake."

NOW do you see? [[User:Damiancorrigan|Damiancorrigan]] 23:12, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

The offending text was inserted here: http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Baccarat&direction=next&oldid=233090 As you can see, this bears no resemblance to the previous edit, and is NOT from 1911. [[User:Damiancorrigan|Damiancorrigan]] 23:23, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
:The article was originally created using an old text. Another editor inserted the text you don't like four years ago. I'm not sure what isn't clear to you. The hotlib.com website was not even registerd to July 2002. While [[User:Imran]]'s addition may have been copied from somewhere or not, there is no reason to assume the person you referenced who rewrites wikipedia articles on various sites is the original author, particularly since nearly four years has passed now. [[User:2005|2005]] 00:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
:: Either way it would probably be re-written. The old english style text does not read well by todays standards of writing. And even if it isn't copyright it is plagarism.[[User:155.144.251.120|155.144.251.120]] 21:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
==Baccarat Deck==
Would Baccarat be a better game or a worse game if the 10's, J's, Q's & K's were removed from the deck?
[[User:Jillbones|Jillbones]] 21:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
: The game would be better. In a 6 deck game there would actally be an edge to anyone who bet on Banker of about 0.1% to 0.2%. This is because the banker is more selective on when he draws a card than the player.--[[User:155.144.251.120|155.144.251.120]] 21:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
:It would be a different game.
==Rituals==
I would love to see a discritpion of the various rituals players use when playing NA baccarat. for example, it is very common for high-rolling aisan players to go through a absurd ritual of bending up the corner or side of the cards in order to "peek" at what they may be, using sheer will to change the value of the card as it lies face down.
:Discription?
<br />
This is often referred to as card squeezing. The croupier will offer a participant in the game (usually the highest staking for the Banker or Player bet) the option of squeezing the cards dealt to the hand he/she has bet on. It's a slow reveal whereby adjacent sides are bent up so that only the suit symbols on those sides are revealed but not the suit symbols in the center of the card (or the card number of course). As an example, two suits across the top and three down the side could be either a 6, 7, or 8 card depending on whether there are 0, 1 or 2 suit symbols respectively in the middle of the card. This process will usually be repeated to the 2 initially dealt cards, as well as the third card if required. The 'squeezer' will then try and apply other techniques (based purely on superstition and belief, not physics!) to influence the value of the card before it is flipped and its value revealed. Returning to the case of the card that is either a 6, 7, or 8, if a 6 is needed for a win, blowing on the card is said to blow away any suit symbols that may exist in the center of the card thereby helping to produce a win. I wrote an article on this at http://www.livedealer.org/blog/2012/04/the-baccarat-card-sqsueeze-ritua/.<br />

Another example is the use of score cards to track previous hands. Players then use these cards to 'predict' whether the player or banker will win the next hand ([[conditional probability]]).
<br />
I think what you are referring to here are the baccarat road maps, or tracing indicators known individually as Bead Road, Big Road, Big Eye Road, Small Road and the Cockroach Road. They are simply different graphical depictions of the deal history, much like a roulette outcome history panel (although more complicated to construct). Some players use them as a means of predicting future hand outcomes although whether they are really helpful in this regard is debatable. A detailed guide on what the various road maps depict and how they are each constructed can be found at http://www.livedealer.org/blog/2010/09/the-baccarat-roadmap-manual/.<br />

:Sounds very US TPT.
When I play, I like to piss them all off by simply flipping a coin: Heads I bet on Player, Tails I bet on Banker. [[User:Ckindel|ckindel]] 07:02, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
:I doubt they are 'pissed off' as you express it. They're probably just regarding your less than sophisticated demeanour.
::I think this 'like to piss them off' person does not belong in this discussion.
You are right - BUT : You must take into concideration of the probability of the coincidence of two random /parallel/ events[[User:Tamaslevy|Tamaslevy]] 01:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
: Another TPT here. This is not good.

== What does the word "Baccarat" actually mean? ==
This is not explained in the article. [[User:81.158.0.23|81.158.0.23]] 15:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It is the name of a card game.  However, perhaps you mean "what is the origin of the word".  The word entered French from Provençal in the fifteenth century.  The Provençal spelling was "baccara": there is no evident justification for the French addition of a silent t.  The word cannot be traced further back with any certainty, but it and the game are thought to have originated in medieval Italy, and it is suggested that at the time the word "baccara" was in use to mean zero: hence the use of the word to designate a hand worth zero in the game.  [[User:217.158.132.22|217.158.132.22]] 09:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I can find no evidence that 'baccara' has ever meant zero in any Italian dialect. I have only seen this asserted by people who wish to believe that the card game Baccarat is of medieval origin. But so far as I know there is no contemporary reference to any card game called Baccarat before the 19th century. This despite the fact that we have wriiten records from from both France and Italy going back to the 17th century and earlier, including descriptions of gambling games, pieces of gambling legislation referring to banned and permitted games and casino records. [[User:Pagat1703|Pagat1703]] ([[User talk:Pagat1703|talk]]) 12:59, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
:According to Scarne, the game was imported to France from the Italian game Baccara in 1490. But, I don't know of any source for "zero". [[User:Objective3000|Objective3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 17:10, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
::But Scarne is wrong. There is no real evidence that any game called Baccara existed in Italy in 1490 or any time before the 19th century. Several 20th century writers have claimed a 15th or 16th century origin for Baccara, but without any justification apart from the assertions of other recent writers. If you can find any authentic 18th century or earlier document that mentions Baccara as a card game I will be happy to be proved wrong. [[User:Pagat1703|Pagat1703]] ([[User talk:Pagat1703|talk]]) 14:35, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
:::The OED says the word is adopted from French and gives the oldest English ref at 1866. Which really doesn't really tell us if it originated in France or Italy. I'll ask a French expert if he has any info on the etymology. [[User:Objective3000|Objective3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 15:21, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

:::Some additional stuff: [http://wordoriginsorg.yuku.com/topic/4167/Baccara-need-French-help#.WNKacFUrJaQ]. Nothing definitive. [[User:Objective3000|Objective3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 15:48, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

:::A friend responds: "Every one of a considerable number of dictionaries and encyclopedias that I have, including the Grand Larousse Encyclopedique, say 'unknown origin.'  But they do seem to indicate that the game was imported to France from Italy." This is [[WP:OR]], but lends credence to Scarne. [[User:Objective3000|Objective3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 17:06, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

:::I looked further. The source for Baccara originating in Italy appears to be Firmin Didot’s ''Dictionnaire de la Conversation et de la lecture'', written in the 19th Century. Baccara means little pitcher in a Sicilian dialect. I'll provide the source when I get some time. [[User:Objective3000|Objective3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 18:49, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

::::Thierry Depaulis (card game historian) told me a few years ago (private communication) that 'baccara' was a Provençal word meaning 'bankrupt'. That is the only plausible etymology that I have come across. I will ask him if he has any further relevant discoveries or evidence. [[User:Pagat1703|Pagat1703]] ([[User talk:Pagat1703|talk]]) 09:07, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
:::::I found a couple sources on the history and updated the article. The English source discusses the word at length. The word had several meanings, who knows which if any were a part of the etymology. [[User:Objective3000|Objective3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 12:10, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
::::::Unfortunately your sources are unreliable and out of date. There are absolutely no sources for card games utilizing [[modular arithmetic]] in the West before the appearance of [[:de:Macao (Glücksspiel)|Macao]] around 1800. On the other hand, card games similar to baccarat were described in China from the early 17th century and were well known in Korea and Japan during the 18th century. There is also one Indian game similar to the East Asian games but that has only been recorded recently. Scarne is extremely unreliable as he is not an actual scholar on the history of card games. For example, he received criticism from [[Michael Dummett]] over his handling of the history of poker which was basically sloppy plagiarism of [[Robert Frederick Foster]]'s research. [[David Parlett]] believes baccarat originated from Macao but Macao's true origins are a mystery. The name suggests a Sino-Portuguese heritage but it may be Hungarian as claimed by the [[Meyers Konversations-Lexikon]].--[[User:Countakeshi|Countakeshi]] ([[User talk:Countakeshi|talk]]) 10:01, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
:::::::I realize Scarne was careless. But, I took the earlier sources to [[WP:RSN]] before using them here. [[User:Objective3000|Objective3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 10:42, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
::::::::From the snippet in Google Books, the first source, [[The Academy (periodical)]], only proves the word exists not the card game (I would like to see more of this source). The second source is a [[tertiary source]] which doesn't cite its own sources. If baccarat, the card game, existed since the Renaissance, then there should be mention of it in legislation, game books, and diaries before the 19th century. I can provide [[secondary source]]s for Macao and the Asian games which should take precedence over tertiary sources.--[[User:Countakeshi|Countakeshi]] ([[User talk:Countakeshi|talk]]) 11:17, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::The first source specifically calls it a game. The second source is a dictionary, and calls it a card game. Both refer to the origin in the 15th Century. I’m not aware of European legislation about games in the 15th Century.  [[User:Objective3000|Objective3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 16:31, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::The first source calls it a game but the author's sources are dictionaries that don't mention a game as far as I can see. The author simply looked for similar looking words which turn out to be outside the context of card games. The second source is a dictionary and dictionaries are [[tertiary source]]s. It also does not list its [[primary source|primary]] or [[secondary source]]s. Modern research should take precedence as more contemporary researchers have access to more primary and secondary sources ([[WP:RS AGE]])--[[User:Countakeshi|Countakeshi]] ([[User talk:Countakeshi|talk]]) 17:30, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::No point in discussing this both here and at RSN. Also, when taking something to a noticeboard, you really should warn editors with whom you are discussing a subject. [[User:Objective3000|Objective3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 17:52, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Discussion has moved here if anyone wants to follow: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Secondary_sources_for_baccarat WP:RSN:Secondary sources for baccarat]

== History and French name ==
I put in a bit about how the French name was made because I noticed that on many sites in English, they were incorrectly saying that it had something to do with trains or railways. This is just idiotic; the name was given when it was introduced in the 15th century, so there was no such thing as a train or a railway. One site was saying that "chemin de fer" literally means "railway" - this is incorrect. It translates as railway but it literally means "way of iron". When I searched through French sites, I quickly found that it got the name because the cards were put in an iron box.
[[User:Owen214|Owen214]] ([[User talk:Owen214|talk]]) 05:27, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

:"Chemin" translates more accurately into "Path."  Thus, a "chemin de fer" would be an "iron path."  Hence the eventual usage to mean railway.  --[[User:LePhil|LePhil]] ([[User talk:LePhil|talk]]) 03:58, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

::There is no difference at all between 'iron path' and 'way of iron' [[User:Owen214|Owen214]] ([[User talk:Owen214|talk]]) 12:57, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The author of this article needs to be clear about the meaning of the French term "chemin de fer". As other commentators have said above the term is the ordinary French designation for "railway" (in British English) and "railroad" (in U.S. English). The author's belief that "chemin de fer" could mean "iron shirt", and by analogy "iron box", raises great doubt in my mind about his fitness for public writing.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Grobblakk|Grobblakk]] ([[User talk:Grobblakk|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Grobblakk|contribs]]) 19:28, 3 October 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:: Well, at the very least, he didn't do well in high school French, having clearly confused "chemin" with "chemise."[[User:Marguerite de Navarre|Marguerite de Navarre]] ([[User talk:Marguerite de Navarre|talk]]) 05:43, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

:The 'author' didn't say anything about shirt, the previous anonymous contributor just made that up. He gives a really good argument why chemin de fer shouldn't be translated 'railway' when referring to the card game. [[User:Zargulon|Zargulon]] ([[User talk:Zargulon|talk]]) 10:08, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

It can mean railways because baccarat and chemin de fer '''originate from the 19th-century'''. I've added better references regarding the history of this game. Do not rely on websites that don't give out any sources.--[[User:Countakeshi|Countakeshi]] ([[User talk:Countakeshi|talk]]) 22:39, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

== Casino Royale ==
In fact, the game played in this novel is the one described here as "Baccarat Banque" - although the casino does not have enough players for Le Chifre (who has bought the bank for the evening) to play against two tables at once.

== External Link section. ==

I'm of the opinion that the (only) link in the external links [sic] section is unimportant to the article.  It only describes one version of the game, and not significantly better than the article itself.  The link text itself also is overly commercialized fluff ("A great Site explaining Baccarat in simple clear language"). [[User:Cnj|Cnj]] 03:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Being a baccarat addict, I came across this free non-commercial baccarat course from Asia. The teacher is obviously trying to change the way we Chinese all play from superstition-based to mathematical-based. There was no charge to study the course and I was never solicited because I had studied the course. So I decided to add the link to give others a chance to see this material.

As per the commented instructions on the edit page for Baccarat, I would like you to consider a link for the "External Links". The site is [http://www.baccaratadvisor.com/ Baccarat Advisor] It gives a history of the game, the rule, variations, comments on strategy. Also throughout it emphasizes the fact that Baccarat is not so much a game of strategy as a game for enjoyment, and that gamblers should understand that it is NOT a platform for making millions of dollars from the casinos.[[Special:Contributions/72.251.53.15|72.251.53.15]] ([[User talk:72.251.53.15|talk]]) 15:05, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

==Makccarat==
A new game has appeared in Sands and Venetian Macau (and it appears on a Macau government gambling statistics website). It is played as baccarat is with the same amount of cards but the rules are very different in terms of when a card is drawn and how tax is taken. I'm wondering if we need a new article or if it can fit in this article.[[User:DietEvil|DietEvil]] ([[User talk:DietEvil|talk]]) 17:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
:If it meets [[WP:V]] and [[WP:N]], then it could be its own article, but if it is just acasino variation, then it probably just merits a couple sentences here, for now at least. [[User:2005|2005]] ([[User talk:2005|talk]]) 22:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
::I have added it below Mini-Baccarat and I'm sure the wording isn't terribly clear but I did the best I could. If anyone needs any clarification or wants to help re-write it, I more than welcome your help.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:DietEvil|DietEvil]] ([[User talk:DietEvil|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DietEvil|contribs]]) 04:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:This game is going to need references from at least 2 casinos. If the game is only played at one particular casino, then it should not be discussed or even mentioned here, as it would just be advertising.[[User:Owen214|Owen214]] ([[User talk:Owen214|talk]]) 07:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

== Skill to play a LARGE part? ==

"In baccarat chemin de fer and baccarat banque, by contrast, both players can make choices, which allows skill to play a large part."

This is, in my opinion, nonsense. The decision whether to take another card only occurs for the punter when he has a total of five. The banker has more options but the idea that the punter's demeanor would give away whether he had a decision or not assumes a childish foolishness on the part of that individual. I suppose it would be really skillful to hesitate and consider hitting a seven total, without ever intending to take another card, so your opponent would take no cards with a worse hand. 

I'm not saying there is no skill involved but compared to bridge, poker or even blackjack, it does not play a large part. I would edit out the word "large." [[Special:Contributions/67.130.101.194|67.130.101.194]] ([[User talk:67.130.101.194|talk]]) 16:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)Will in New Haven[[Special:Contributions/67.130.101.194|67.130.101.194]] ([[User talk:67.130.101.194|talk]]) 16:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

: Yes, I think the word "large" is unnecessary. We don't need to get into the philosophical matter of whether there's more skill in baccarat than in Texas Hold'em. I think the original point of that sentence was to note that those varieties of baccarat include ''some'' matters of skill (unlike punto banco, which is strictly a game of chance--all moves are forced after you make your bet). The word "large" is unnecessary. So I nuked it. Whee! -- [[User:Narsil|Narsil]] ([[User talk:Narsil|talk]]) 20:49, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

: The question of whether skill plays as large a part in any form of baccrat as it does in Holdem is not philosophical. It is mathematical and the answer is clear. Baccarat is a game for people to dress up fancy and donate money to casinos. And feel sophisticated. [[Special:Contributions/65.79.173.135|65.79.173.135]] ([[User talk:65.79.173.135|talk]]) 18:43, 12 July 2013 (UTC)Will in New Haven[[Special:Contributions/65.79.173.135|65.79.173.135]] ([[User talk:65.79.173.135|talk]]) 18:43, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

== Baccara a Deux Tableaux ==

The 2003 edition of "Hoyle's Official Rules of Card Games" spells the name "Baccara" rather than "Baccarat".  Further, it describes "Baccara a Deux Tableaux", which, as near as I can understand, is identical to the "Baccarat Banque" described in this article.
Does anyone know the source of the difference in spelling?  And should "a Deux Tableaux" be added as an alternate name for "Banque"?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/204.69.190.75|204.69.190.75]] ([[User talk:204.69.190.75|talk]]) 22:44, 19 January 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::'Baccara' was a Provençal spelling - an old precursor to French. Who knows why Hoyle wrote it that way, but the book was written a long time ago and the consensus worldwide is to write it in its French spelling: Baccarat [[User:Owen214|Owen214]] ([[User talk:Owen214|talk]]) 07:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

==Popular culture==
I would hardly describe Team Fortress 2 as being part of popular culture, so this game making a passing reference to Baccarat isn't worth a mention is it? Besides, Baccarat is much more widely known than Team Fortress 2.

Rush Hour 3 was a well-known movie, but if one character just happened to be in a baccarat game during one scene, that doesn't seem worthy of note either.

The difference between these and the James Bond reference is that James Bond is widely popular, it's been around for a long time and James Bond regularly plays Baccarat - it isn't just a passing mention of Baccarat on 1 occasion. Please remember this is meant to be an encyclopaedia; not a reference of video games and movie characters.
[[User:Owen214|Owen214]] ([[User talk:Owen214|talk]]) 04:29, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

:I agree, and have removed the TF2 comment as being far too obscure for WP inclusion.  It's not even just a feature in a videogame, it's from some sort of promotional materials for some supplement to the game.  Far too obscure to merit mention, much less several sentences.  The Bond inclusion makes sense though, as I'd imagine millions of people primarily know the game from seeing it in those films. [[User:MatthewVanitas|MatthewVanitas]] ([[User talk:MatthewVanitas|talk]]) 06:41, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

This popular culture section has again become out of control. Apparently somebody playing Baccarat in an episode of a TV show counts as a reference to this game in popular culture. As a guide to the fans of these TV shows who can't wait to list their show as making reference to Baccarat, the character should play Baccarat as a habit (eg James Bond) or the plot must be significantly influcenced by the game being played in some sort of unusual way. Also, the TV show / movie / whatever must be very popular. At the moment, my perception of references in popular culture would not include the listings about Mission Impossible, Rush Hour 3, Warren Zevon or A Hard Day's Night. I'll remove them in the next few days unless somebody provides some sort of logical opposition. [[User:Owen214|Owen214]] ([[User talk:Owen214|talk]]) 07:52, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Reading Casino Royale lately, the game played resembles Baccarat banque more closely than chemin de fer - the bank is bought and not relinquished on loss. Sadly I can't find a text to reference it in online.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/94.193.167.238|94.193.167.238]] ([[User talk:94.193.167.238|talk]]) 22:46, 9 July 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I agree that the pop culture is out of control -- I mean, ''Mission Impossible''? Especially when there's no mention whatever of Edward VII being a baccarat aficionado when he was Prince of Wales, which greatly increased the game's popularity, and especially of his unwilling involvement in the Tranby Croft scandal and trial, which turned on someone being accused of cheating at baccarat.

:On a different point, the whole "modulo 10" thing is arguably unnecessary and at least ridiculously overdone. It has the feel of some math undergrad showing off his lesson of the week. At the very least, knock the jumbo-size font down to normal! --<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:Mksmith|Michael K Smith]]</span><span style="color: purple; font-family: papyrus; font-size: small;"><sup>[[User Talk:Mksmith|<span style="color: purple;">Talk</span>]]</sup> </span> 21:51, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

::I have taken your excellent suggestion of including the [[Royal Baccarat Scandal]] in the Pop Culture section.  If anything, I think that this helps to strengthen the argument for the removal of some of the other pop culture blurbs.  [[User:Heather|Heather]] ([[User talk:Heather|talk]]) 16:59, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

== External link suggestion ==

How about a link to the 1911 [[Encyclopædia Britannica]] article?  A simple citation can be made:

* {{Wikisource1911Enc Citation|Baccarat}}

Or the attractive poster shown can be used.  The template for the poster is best located at the top of the section.
{{Wikisource1911Enc|Baccarat}}

&mdash; [[User:Bob Burkhardt|Bob Burkhardt]] ([[User talk:Bob Burkhardt|talk]]) 19:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

US vs Euro rules:

Forgive the spelling...

What are the rules in Baccarat and Chemin-de-fer about drawing a card?

In the US casinos do it automatically, but when the player or bank has options then 
strategy comes into play. 

[[User:Duzykawa|Duzykawa]] ([[User talk:Duzykawa|talk]]) 15:17, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

== 16  Valuation of a Baccarat hand ==

I think that after the explanation of the value assigned to each card, this section is written in unnecessarily complicated fashion.  I ''think'' that the basic idea is that for hands where the aggregate face value of the cards (represented by x) is less than 10, the value of one's hand is x, whereas if x is 10 or greater, the value of one's hand is x - 10.  In other words, I think it's pretty straightforward, but introducing modular mathematics terminology and accompanying equations make this section less helpful and user-friendly than it could be.  [[User:Marguerite de Navarre|Marguerite de Navarre]] ([[User talk:Marguerite de Navarre|talk]]) 06:22, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

== Which hand wins? ==

Reading the punto banco section (I haven't read the other varieties'), I don't see that it says which hand wins. It does say
:If either Player or Banker or both achieve a total of 8 or 9 at this stage, the coup is finished and the result is announced: Player win, a Banker win, or tie. If neither hand has eight or nine, the drawing rules are applied to determine whether Player should receive a third card. Then, based on the value of any card drawn to the player, the drawing rules are applied to determine whether the Banker should receive a third card. The coup is then finished, the outcome is announced and winning bets are paid out.
&mdash; but nothing there says ''which'' hand is the winner if one hand has eight or nine (in the first quoted sentence), or ''which''  outcome is announced (in the last quoted sentence). This is a grave omission.&mdash;[[User:msh210|msh210]]<span class="Unicode">&#x2120;</span> 17:19, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
:Oh, never mind: I see now: it's in the lede: "three possible outcomes: 'player' (player has the higher score), 'banker,' and 'tie.'".&mdash;[[User:msh210|msh210]]<span class="Unicode">&#x2120;</span> 17:35, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

== Clarity on scoring ==
The section for "Chemin de Fer" says, "... if either has an eight or a nine, this is immediately announced and the hands are turned face-up and compared. If neither hand is an eight or nine..."
These statements seem to contradict each other based on the use of the word "has".  The first sentence implies if either card is an eight or a nine, then the clause is true; the second sentence implies if the score of the hand totals eight or nine, then the clause is true.
[[Special:Contributions/24.19.231.240|24.19.231.240]] ([[User talk:24.19.231.240|talk]]) 01:37, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

== Blacklisted Links Found on [[Baccarat (card game)]] ==

Cyberbot II has detected links on [[Baccarat (card game)]] which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: [[MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist/log|local]] or [[m:Spam_blacklist/log|global]]
If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may [[MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist|request that it is white-listed]]. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist [[MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist|locally]] or [[m:Talk:Spam Blacklist|globally]].
When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags.
Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the [[WP:Help desk|help desk]].

'''Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:'''

*<nowiki>http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/thorp/tog1.pdf</nowiki>
*:''Triggered by <code>\bbjmath\.com\b</code> on the global blacklist''

If you would like me to provide more information on the talk page, contact [[User:Cyberpower678]] and ask him to program me with more info.

From your friendly hard working bot.—[[User:Cyberbot II|<sup style="color:green;font-family:Courier">cyberbot II</sup>]]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">[[User talk:Cyberbot II|<span style="color:green">Talk to my owner</span>]]:Online</sub></small> 16:52, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

== Macao ==

I am aware of Parlett, the existence of the game in London and its possible origins in Hungary. But, all of this post dates the Italian game of Baccara brought to France in the 15th century. The Macao section would seem to contradict the lead. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 17:31, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

== What is the pallet for? ==

The first image mentions the pallet but no further information is provided. The caption assumes the reader knows what a Baccarat pallet is, but some explanation of it's purpose is necessary. [[User:Freshacconci|<b><span style="color: #000000;">freshacconci</span></b>]][[User talk:Freshacconci|<span style="color: #FF0000;"> (✉)</span>]] 13:16, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
:Well, they're pretty much obsolete outside of James Bond movies or possibly chemin de fer in Monte Carlo. Probably should find a better image. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 13:30, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
:In the older forms, including chemin de fer, the tables are fairly large, larger than banco punto, so the croupier will use the pallet to pass the player cards to the bettor serving that role. Being that chemin de fer isn't all that popular of a version these days, being largely seen as an old fashioned version, it's pretty much an archaic throwback, but is still also associated with the game as a whole. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 17:16, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

== Requested move 12 July 2021 ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''

The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' There is a consensus that the card game is the primary topic and that the commune should be at [[Baccarat, Meurthe-et-Moselle]].<small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small> [[User:Lennart97|Lennart97]] ([[User talk:Lennart97|talk]]) 20:40, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
----

* [[:Baccarat (card game)]] → {{no redirect|Baccarat}}
* [[:Baccarat]] → {{no redirect|Baccarat (commune)}}
– With 20 times the average page views, a worldwide significance, and no known etymological link between the names, it seems to me the card game is a clear [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] and should be at the base name. (As an aside, I'm not wedded to the disambiguator for the commune and am open to suggestions. [https://pageviews.toolforge.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-11&pages=Baccarat%7CBaccarat_(card_game)] [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 18:41, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support'''.  Move [[Baccarat]] to [[Baccarat, Meurthe-et-Moselle]]. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 19:30, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

*'''Support 2nd''', '''Neutral 1st'''. I don't have an opinion on the card game becoming the primary, but it's quite clear that if there's a primary topic the commune definitely isn't it. We could possibly reassess after possibly putting a dab page at the basename, maybe. Also, not sure / neutral on what should come after "Baccarat" in the new title of the commune's page. <small>[[User:Paintspot|Paintspot Infez]] ([[User talk:Paintspot|talk]])</small> 19:38, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. The card game is the clear primary topic based on page views [https://pageviews.toolforge.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2021-04-12&end=2021-07-11&pages=Baccarat%7CBaccarat_(card_game)], It gets an average of 1,000 hits per day compared to the French place, which gets less than 50 despite being at the base name. [[User:Calidum|<span style="color:#01796F; font-family:serif">'''-- ''Calidum'''''</span>]] 19:41, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
**Yeah. I don't know why my link to the page view too was misformatted. Thanks for the fix. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 19:57, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support''' with [[Baccarat, Meurthe-et-Moselle]].  The card game is the primary topic.  [[User:力]] (power~enwiki, [[User talk:力|<span style="color:#FA0;font-family:courier">π</span>]], [[Special:Contributions/力|<span style="font-family:courier">ν</span>]]) 19:44, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' for those unsure about the disambiguator, I'll note that the article's previous title was [[Baccarat, Meurthe-et-Moselle]], and this would revert an undiscussed move from 2014. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 19:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
**Since the move to the base title was undiscussed, then it's particularly egregious that it occupies the base title while not being the primary topic. That move should be reverted anyway. Especially since the rationale given in the move summary (that everything else is named after the commune) is both false (as I said above and is noted on the talk page, the etymology of baccarat as the name of the card game is uncertain at best) and irrelevant (there is ''no'' clause in [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] about the oldest use getting precedence; such suggestions have always been flatly rejected.)  [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 19:57, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
:::Agree, and it would have been eligible for [[WP:RMT]], although now an RM is open and we should let it play out. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 21:30, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support''', the card game is clearly the primary topic. [[User:JIP|<span style="color: #CC0000;">J</span><span style="color: #00CC00;">I</span><span style="color: #0000CC;">P</span>]] &#124; [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 00:02, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support''' 2nd as '''[[Baccarat, Meurthe-et-Moselle]]''' but consider putting the DAB at the basename instead, even the company gets more views (2,389)[[https://pageviews.toolforge.org/massviews/?platform=all-access&agent=user&source=wikilinks&range=latest-20&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&target=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baccarat_(disambiguation)]]. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  09:37, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
**More views than the commune, but still an almost 10-to-1 in favor of the card game. (21,889 to 2,389) [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 12:58, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support 1st'''. Very clear primary topic. '''Move 2nd''' to [[Baccarat, Meurthe-et-Moselle]]. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 13:09, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support Move 2nd''' to [[Baccarat, Meurthe-et-Moselle]] because of there is no etymological link beetwen commune and game. '''Neutral''' on giving primary topic for the game, though not oppose because of according to the article is dated on 15-19th century. [[User:Dawid2009|Dawid2009]] ([[User talk:Dawid2009|talk]]) 14:36, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] has no clause about which came first. It's entirely about which is the most common meaning of the name. With page views that are 10-1 of the next most viewed article, there's little question in my mind that the card game is the primary topic. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 16:10, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
</div><div style="clear:both;"></div>

== Requesting the page be locked to logged-on users only due to frequent recent casino link spamming ==

Looking at the history page, no less than 6 attempts (5 of them IPs, spread across both IPv4 and IPv6) from 1st through 10th of November 2023 of what I got the impression are likely the same spambot, have attempted to rampage the page by replacing random bits of text with casino fraud links. Its edits were understandably quickly undone (and the one registered account perma'd), but at this point I think it's suitable to consider limiting editing of the page to logged-in users only; or, if that's not possible, to autoconfirmed users. [[User:Dandelion Sprout|Dandelion Sprout]] ([[User talk:Dandelion Sprout|talk]]) 12:04, 10 November 2023 (UTC)