View source for Talk:Origin of SARS-CoV-2

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__TOC__

{{Origins of COVID-19 (current consensus)}}
{{Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory/Sources}}

== Biased Article ==

The article in its current form displays a clear bias.

The introduction paragraph is formulated to imply the zoonotic origin is scientific evidence and other hypotheses a product of conspiracy or fiction.

The zoonotic origin is a deduction based on the article of Andersen et al., 2020. It contains deductions based on comparative analyses, but they do not represent factual evidence. Fact: "We prove that ...", Comparative Analysis: "Based on previous data we assess it is unlikely that ..."

That article should be put on the bigger picture that is recently arising, on how a segment of the research community (represented Dr. Daszak) tried to cover up the role of Wuhan's lab coronavirus research and rush to declare that China is not guilty. Those are not conspiracies anymore https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-01305-z and even Nature accepts it.

In light of the recent development, it seems foolish to still "blindly" believe in the integrity of the virus-research scientific community, at a time when it is crystal clear (echoed by Nature, US Senate, etc.) that the scientific community had been compromised. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:3CE9:EAD1:8168:834A|2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:3CE9:EAD1:8168:834A]] ([[User talk:2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:3CE9:EAD1:8168:834A|talk]]) 09:39, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

:There is - at present - no actual evidence for the lab leak theory. One guy not disclosing a tangential collaboration with a lab does not give credence to your conspiracy theory. 
:I don't believe in the integrity of any specific institution, but I believe in evidence. There is ample evidence of zoonotic origin, and 0 evidence of lab leak.  [[User:LMFcan|LMFcan]] ([[User talk:LMFcan|talk]]) 11:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
::What do you mean by ample evidence? Because there is no evidence that the origin is zoonotic, there are only studies that deduce the zoonotic evidence to be "highly likely" based on a comparative assessment of the genome. The same studies assess a lab leak to be "highly unlikely". Sorry for how you understand science and facts, but this is not evidence. See the definition of the word "fact" for a start [[Fact]].
::Regarding your assessment that my opinion is a conspiracy, this is exactly the root of this problem. In the beginning of the pandemic, conspiracists used the situation to ignite unsourced debates. The more rational fragment of the society, call them science believers, quickly jumped in to "calm" down the population and avoid that the masses are influenced by conspiracies.
::However, purely because conspiracists believe in a theory does not make it automatically wrong or laughable. The situation has changed a lot since the early days when a few scientists, apparently with conflicts of interests, rushed to declare prematurely that COVID has a zoonotic origin, without waiting for conclusive evidence such as the discovery of a matching genome in an intermediate host. Such evidence was never discovered, despite thousands of tests on animals in the Wuhan region and beyond. 
::I am not a virologist and will not argue with the technical details. However, it is my right to demand that Wikipedia is impartial and that it does not turn into a stronghold of blind "science-believing" editors, who reject any alternate theory as simply conspiracy because they are too proud to accept they might have been wrong in prematurely believing in what-seems-to-be a compromised nucleus of scientific researchers with conflicts of interests in the cause of the pandemic. Science is not a static concept of math equations, but also a more general vision of seeking the truth, especially in such cases when the "truth" dynamically evolves considering the incoming flow of new pieces of the puzzle.[[Special:Contributions/2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:3CE9:EAD1:8168:834A|2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:3CE9:EAD1:8168:834A]] ([[User talk:2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:3CE9:EAD1:8168:834A|talk]]) 18:33, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
:::You say, "The situation has changed a lot since the early days when a few scientists, apparently with conflicts of interests, rushed to declare prematurely that COVID has a zoonotic origin, without waiting for conclusive evidence such as the discovery of a matching genome in an intermediate host."
:::I think, "The situation has changed a lot since the early days when a few <u>politicians</u>, apparently with conflicts of interests, rushed to declare prematurely that COVID has a <u>lab leak</u> origin, without waiting for conclusive evidence such as the discovery of a matching genome in <u>any lab</u>."
:::Same logic, different result, no? [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 19:56, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
::::Unrelated comment first: I appreciate the creativity of your answer.
::::Coming to the point: I do not support the "few politicians", however, it seems most editors believe in the "few scientists" as if they were divine creatures of scientific puritanism. Recent evidence suggests their work is not exclusively driven by scientific rigor, to put it mildly.
::::Science should give an ultimate answer, however, please notice that the scientific community does not have an absolute consensus on the matter:
::::https://gcrinstitute.org/papers/069_covid-origin.pdf
::::In the survey above published in February 2024, among 168 leading global experts in virology 79% believe in a zoonotic origin, and 21% believe in an accident-related origin. That is a staggering amount of disagreement to call the situation a consensus, especially since it takes a lot of courage to question the zoonotic origin without being declared a conspiracist, crazy right-wing, etc., and risking a character assassination (we even have an example above when I was characterized as a "conspiracist" by the previous editor, only because I dared to question the balance of this article).
::::Perhaps it is not too late that Wikipedia fixes this page, by balancing this article with the lines "The community of scientists is divided into two fronts, the majority supporting a zoonotic origin, and a minority supporting an accident leak.", and removing the absurd part implying that individuals questioning the zoonotic origin are conspiracists, etc. The current phrasing is insulting, to say the least, to a rational being. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:3CE9:EAD1:8168:834A|2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:3CE9:EAD1:8168:834A]] ([[User talk:2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:3CE9:EAD1:8168:834A|talk]]) 21:09, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::I found https://www.science.org/content/article/virologists-and-epidemiologists-back-natural-origin-covid-19-survey-suggests (a description of that survey's flaws) informative.  My favorite line was this:
:::::“At least 78% of experts are very badly informed (not aware of one key document)...33% of experts are either lying or easily confused [because they claimed to be familiar with a paper that never existed]. Basically, these experts are no better than the Delphic Pythia, hallucinations included.”  
:::::And that's from someone who believes that SARS-CoV-2 originated in a lab. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 21:31, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::I assume you read the Science article's comment, which assesses that:
::::::"That hardly means respondents believe the matter is settled, however. One in five researchers gave a probability of 50% or more to a scenario other than a natural zoonosis."
::::::The other line you are reporting should be taken in the right context, which is the opposite of what you are implying:
::::::The article refers to a comment that "78% of experts" were uninformed of a proposal "known as DEFUSE, which was submitted to the U.S. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) in 2018 by the nonprofit EcoHealth Allianceand partnering labs in the United States and at the Wuhan Institute of Virology".
::::::The person tweeting suggests the majority supporting the zoonotic origin is not well-informed, and follows a "herd mentality" zoonotic belief.
::::::  
::::::This survey, including the Science article you cited, further iterates that the reality is far away from the clear zoonotic consensus among the scientific community, contrary to what this Wikipedia article tries to indicate. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:3CE9:EAD1:8168:834A|2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:3CE9:EAD1:8168:834A]] ([[User talk:2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:3CE9:EAD1:8168:834A|talk]]) 22:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::With all due respect, anyone who believes in a puritanical "science should come to an ultimate answer" has never actually worked in science, much less in a biological sub-field. There are exceptions and conjecture in every aspect of it, only after decades of research and long standing debate will you often get some "ultimate answer", if ever. Hell, we still have large swaths of the population, including some scientists, who don't believe in evolution - one of the few "ultimate answers" we've ever come to. 
:::::Secondly, ~4/5th of experts saying they believe in zoonotic origins does not validate or verify claims of lab leak, if anything it should reduce your certainty in it. You'll also notice that despite the fact that they determine similar levels of experts believe in zoontic origins, there's a 10% disparity between virologists (who would be trained in molecular biology) and epidemiologists (who rarely are). 
:::::Lastly, there is a finite number of ways a virus can jump species. If it were from a GoF experiment in a lab that leaked into the public, you'd be able to identify somewhat easily with the sequence of the virus where genes were inserted. No lab on the planet has been able to identify where that would have happened in the sequence, because as it stands now, there isn't any evidence to support it ever happened.  [[User:LMFcan|LMFcan]] ([[User talk:LMFcan|talk]]) 08:27, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::Not sure I agree that "~4/5th of experts saying they believe in zoonotic origins does not validate or verify claims of lab leak, if anything it should reduce your certainty in it".
::::::The posterior on a belief depends on both the prior probability of the belief and the evidence (see [[Bayes' theorem]]). 
::::::If the prior belief in a zoonotic origin was 0.99999999999 (as this Wiki page seems to imply), then evidence of 0.8 (4/5 experts) reduces the zoonotic origin likelihood, instead of increasing it.
::::::Concerning:
::::::"If it were from a GoF experiment in a lab that leaked into the public, you'd be able to identify somewhat easily with the sequence of the virus where genes were inserted. No lab on the planet has been able to identify where that would have happened in the sequence, because as it stands now, there isn't any evidence to support it ever happened."
::::::Apparently 1/5 experts disagree with your personal opinion. 
::::::And this is exactly the point, the Wiki article should openly state the disagreement on the matter instead of defending a non-existing consensus on the zoonotic origin. It implies a conclusive deduction of the research community, as opposed to a work in progress research and investigation. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:A1B1:DD1A:A1D6:9C4B|2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:A1B1:DD1A:A1D6:9C4B]] ([[User talk:2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:A1B1:DD1A:A1D6:9C4B|talk]]) 14:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::::The top half of this is so stupid I actually struggled to comprehend your interpretation of it. 
:::::::Expert opinion is not evidence (read: observation). You cannot derive implicit probability from opinion, unless the output depends on that opinion (i.e. you can derive probabilistic likelihoods of who will win an election - an output based on opinion - by sampling opinion). 
:::::::Opinion is not evidence, and the type of evidence you're gathering doesn't actually have an impact on the outcome, and is therefore not measurable by probability in this case. Moreover, the evidence of lableak, as I mentioned prior, is zero. Please, derive for me the probability of something occuring when the input of evidence is zero. 
:::::::Lastly, you've already been provided evidence to show that the survey is mostly bunk. It used a moronic sampling method that allowed friends to recruit friends, and showed that most sampled weren't familiar with the subject matter. Even if the survey had perfect methodology and found the same results, 80% of respondents being in agreement is about as good a consensus as you'll ever get. 
:::::::Out of the two of us, I'm going to guess that I'm the only one who worked in an infection and immunity institute during COVID. I can tell you that by the end of ~2021-early 2022 actual experts saw lab leak as a conspiracy theory.  [[User:LMFcan|LMFcan]] ([[User talk:LMFcan|talk]]) 12:46, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I think that based on your comment you might need a refresher of your statistics knowledge. 
::::::::The sample space (pls read what it means in probabilistic terms) is "consensus" or "not consensus" in zoonotic origin. This is the core of the discussion: The wiki article hints at a clear consensus on a zoonotic origin, while evidence suggests the scientific community has not reached a clear consensus.
::::::::You advised me that my certainty in evaluating the consensus outcome should increase after the survey (citing your comment "~4/5th of experts ... should reduce your certainty ..."), and I provided you with an argument that this is not necessarily the case, based on the principles of Bayesian inference.
::::::::What you refer to as "expert opinion is not observation" is simply incorrect. The concept of what constitutes evidence is always specific to the sample space of the outcomes for the variable whose probability we are measuring. For the consensus variable, the survey is evidence.
::::::::Regarding the comment on your experience in an infection and immunity institute: In case you are an authority in the field as you claim, you are welcome to publish your "personal survey" on the fraction of how many "actual experts saw lab leak as a conspiracy theory.". Then we can take these figures seriously. At the moment, the survey I cited is the most credible published source representing the [lack of] consensus on the zoonotic origin. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:6086:E405:FE6E:9AD3|2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:6086:E405:FE6E:9AD3]] ([[User talk:2A02:810D:B5BF:F0AD:6086:E405:FE6E:9AD3|talk]]) 22:23, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Alright, I'm going to do you a favour here and write this out in as basic and clear terms as I can. 
:::::::::"Consensus vs non-consensus" is a non-probabilistic question, because by definition you need a testable hypothesis. In other words, let's say you flip a coin. You can ask "What is the probability that it lands on heads?" <- this is the testable question. You can then draw your conclusions based on the probabilities of the possible conditions
:::::::::What you are trying to link with Bayesian interference/Bayes Theorem lacks this. Go look at the equation. If I accepted that consensus vs non-consensus were the two possibilities of SOMETHING, what is that something you're going to put on the left hand of the equation? 
:::::::::You: "If the prior belief in a zoonotic origin was 0.99999999999 (as this Wiki page seems to imply), then evidence of 0.8 (4/5 experts) reduces the zoonotic origin likelihood, instead of increasing it."
:::::::::If you want to act like you know anything about the scientific method we're going to write this correctly and specifically. The survey you've linked would suggest that the '''probability of asking a random "expert" and getting a response of zoonotic origin''' is 0.8 (or 0.7-whatever the actual number was). This does not do anything to "zoonotic origin likelihood", as expert opinion has no impact on said likelihood. By all probabilistic metrics, you cannot derive the likelihood of an event based on something that does not have an impact on its likelihood. We've already discussed how the methodology in this is flawed, which means that estimate is likely inaccurate. Additionally, it was conducted by a for-profit company hired by 
:::::::::https://jacob-eliosoff.medium.com/either-sars-cov-2-evolved-from-banal-a-prra-insertion-or-it-was-engineered-430d41237247
:::::::::Second, you need to define parameters. What defines consensus? What level of positive response do you need to see for "consensus"? Well the cambridge dictionary defines it as "A generally accepted opinion; wide agreement". 80% of respondents responding the same way would fit into a generally accepted opinion. It would be, in most cases, a supermajority of respondents in agreement. Most definitions I can find online for "scientific consensus" list opinion of the majority of scientists (Cambridge doesn't have a definition, otherwise I'd include for continuity). It DOES NOT, in ANY definition mean that ALL scientists agree. So yes, if your imagined "probability" of all scientists agreeing is 0.999999, then I suspect most real facts are going to fall below your standard for scientific rigour (a quick search suggests that "only" 97% of scientists think evolution happened, and we know it to be true). However, we do not need to give credence to a hypothesis that has, as of now, 0 supporting evidence. 
:::::::::Provide me evidence for lab leak having happened beyond "a lab exists" and I'll support it. Until then, you can cry more. [[User:LMFcan|LMFcan]] ([[User talk:LMFcan|talk]]) 13:08, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::::addendum to the above: if you want to be taken seriously, go find actual evidence. A planets worth of virologists hasn't been able to yet. I'm sure you'll be the one. [[User:LMFcan|LMFcan]] ([[User talk:LMFcan|talk]]) 12:47, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
:The conspiracy theories peddled by the likes of Rand Paul et. al. in the US Senate, do not represent reality and speak only for their deranged opinions. ''[[User:TarnishedPath|<b style="color:#ff0000;">Tar</b><b style="color:#ff7070;">nis</b><b style="color:#ffa0a0;">hed</b><b style="color:#420000;">Path</b>]]''<sup>[[User talk:TarnishedPath|<b style="color:#bd4004;">talk</b>]]</sup> 09:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
::The above discussion is shown to be irrelevant - See Judicial Watch [[Special:Contributions/23.245.99.223|23.245.99.223]] ([[User talk:23.245.99.223|talk]]) 17:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
:::The circumstantial evidence for a lab leak is overwhelming. Here are some facts we know:
:::(1) The Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) received US tax payer funding from 2014 through 2019 in the amount of $1.4 million.
:::(2) One of the missions of the WIV was to investigate viruses that could potentially cause an outbreak in humans, and create a vaccine to prevent it.
:::(3) The WIV research focused on bat coronaviruses, and how they could be modified to bind to human cells.
:::(4) The SARS-CoV-2 virus originated in the Wuhan province of China, with the first 'confirmed' case in December of 2019.
:::(5) Ben Hu, a researcher at the WIV, came down with an unspecified respiratory illness in November 2019, and symptoms were consistent with coronavirus infection.
:::Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-funded-scientist-among-three-chinese-researchers-who-fell-ill-amid-early-covid-19-outbreak-3f919567?fbclid=IwY2xjawGwB-BleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHYxHGgHnjmN4m2RRkrKmG2cc9_0VDMyRwF3m5sDkm9HWSNaU6apyTLI0Pw_aem_-n_e9bR59mzyygjKndzUhg [[User:Turkeyonrye|Nathaniel A. Peterson]] ([[User talk:Turkeyonrye|talk]]) 13:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
::::This is fringe nonsense and misinformation. In any case this is not the article about the lab leak; that's [[COVID-19 lab leak theory]]. [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 13:52, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::It's "nonsense and misinformation" because you said so? I provided a source. All you did was make a baseless criticism. And obviously it is relevant to the origin of SARS-CoV-2 because the lab leak theory postulates that the virus is the result of a lab-modified coronavirus that escaped. [[User:Turkeyonrye|Nathaniel A. Peterson]] ([[User talk:Turkeyonrye|talk]]) 14:24, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
::::::[[Wall Street Journal]] is not known for accurate information on scientific topics. Instead, it is known for spreading anti-science conspiracy theories such as climate change denial. You need a better source which uses better reasoning than the same old [[post hoc ergo propter hoc]] circumstantial evidence that has been the foundation of the lab leakery from the beginning (I fell after a black cat crossed my path... I got better after I took homeopathic stuff... the city where the outbreak started has a lab), and no fairy tales [https://www.science.org/content/article/ridiculous-says-chinese-scientist-accused-being-pandemic-s-patient-zero]. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 09:08, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

== Final report of the House Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Pandemic ==

[https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/12.04.2024-SSCP-FINAL-REPORT.pdf This report] by the US Congress Subcommitee has some relevance to the subject of several SARS-CoV-2-related articles. Specifically, it states that {{green|"SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, likely emerged because of a laboratory or research related accident."}}<br />(I'm mostly using this comment to highlight this report's existence and to invite discussion on how much/where it should be cited) [[User:TinyClayMan|TinyClayMan]] ([[User talk:TinyClayMan|talk]]) 07:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

:Just mad US politics. So safe to ignore. In time some rational secondary sourcing may appear. [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 08:00, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::Actually read the report. It is a secondary source with footnotes citing scientific papers and congressional hearings from researchers. It seems to be a high quality report as well. [[User:Databased|Databased]] ([[User talk:Databased|talk]]) 09:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:::From a quick glance it's just the same dumb nonsense the LL stans have been trotting out for ages. Wait till something reliable comes along (and for scientific subjects, political grandstanding ain't that). [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 09:20, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::::We report what the reliable sources say, regardless of your personal biases. I recommend you take more than a "quick glance" at it again, before being overly dismissive while talking in memes. [[User:Databased|Databased]] ([[User talk:Databased|talk]]) 09:55, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::There's no point rotting the brain reading unusable sources, and politicians for science are just that. This is meant to be a serious encyclopedia. [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 10:00, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Alright, if you're not going to take this seriously, I'm just going to ignore you. Please don't reply to me again. [[User:Databased|Databased]] ([[User talk:Databased|talk]]) 11:20, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:It is regretful that Wikipedia keeps destroying its reputation by falsely insisting that the lab leak hypothesis is a conspiracy theory. This might be a good time to admit mistakes by Wikipedia and start repairing damage done to the public trust. [[Special:Contributions/85.238.103.51|85.238.103.51]] ([[User talk:85.238.103.51|talk]]) 19:32, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

== A claim in the lead has problems ==

Regarding the claim in the lead {{tq|SARS-CoV-2 has close genetic similarity to multiple previously identified bat coronaviruses, suggesting it crossed over into humans from bats.}} 

:1)  Style guidelines ([[MOS:LEADCITE]]) prescribe the use of the minimal necessary number of citations. It is inappropriate to have so many citations without a compelling reason.

:2) These sources are all primary research (except perhaps the Pearlman article, but it's an "editorial", not a systematic meta-analysis and comes from early 2020 when there were "more than 800 recorded cases"), thus violating [[Wikipedia:No original research]] 
[[User:Lardlegwarmers|Lardlegwarmers]] ([[User talk:Lardlegwarmers|talk]]) 20:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

:I don't see how genetic similarity suggests "crossing over from that species". Humans are highly genetically similar to chimpanzees, but did not "cross over" from them. A more obvious suggestion is that two genetically similar species share a common ancestor. The knowledge that SARS-CoV-2 and bat coronaviruses share a common ancestor is pretty mainstream. It may take a few more years before we have ten-year old review articles on this, but there are plenty of citations out there that are adequately [[WP:MEDRS]]. So the claim certainly does not have problems. If you don't like the current references, find a better or more recent reference(s) and be bold. [[User:Jaredroach|Jaredroach]] ([[User talk:Jaredroach|talk]]) 21:41, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
::If I were to be bold in this case, I would start by removing the faulty citations and then flag the claim as unverified, since actually there's only a 96% match between COVID-19 and whatever virus they found in the wild.  The whole zoonotic hypothesis hangs on the sheer speculation that there's an intermediate species out there somewhere that harbored the virus while it mutated.  They criticize the lab leak hypothesis as lacking direct evidence while meanwhile the zoonotic hypothesis also lacks the direct evidence it would require: isolating COVID-19 in a living animal, any living animal, somewhere in the wildlife supply chain to the Wuhan market.[[User:Lardlegwarmers|Lardlegwarmers]] ([[User talk:Lardlegwarmers|talk]]) 06:38, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:::What is the usual similarity between a zoonotic virus in humans and its closest known relative in other animals? I have no idea whether 96% is close or not, and I have no business of injecting any opinions based on my ignorance into the article. Neither have you. Reliable sources make such decisions. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 07:26, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
::::This one has it: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7537588/   [[User:Lardlegwarmers|Lardlegwarmers]] ([[User talk:Lardlegwarmers|talk]]) 07:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

== Military World Games ==

The article does not seem to mention the controversy that the virus was possibly detected at the [[2019 Military World Games#Controversies|2019 Military World Games]] in October 2019, 2 months before it was supposedly first spread via the food market. This seems critical to understanding the virus's origins. [[Special:Contributions/51.155.125.90|51.155.125.90]] ([[User talk:51.155.125.90|talk]]) 01:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

:Because no reliable source entertains that notion. [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 01:21, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

== Faulty sources ==

Ref. #3 is non-MEDRS purporting to support a biomedical claim (a newspaper article).

Ref. #5 non-MEDRS is a press release ''about'' a peer-reviewed study but doesn't provide the actual study.

Refs #6 & 7 are primary sources

Ref # 8 is a New York Times article being used to support the claim that "the virus was derived from a bat-borne virus and most likely was transmitted to humans via another animal in nature, or during wildlife bushmeat trade such as that in food markets."

[[User:Lardlegwarmers|Lardlegwarmers]] ([[User talk:Lardlegwarmers|talk]]) 07:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:The fact that "there have been efforts by scientists, governments, and others" to find an origin is not [[WP:BMI]]. It is also trivially true. [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 08:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
::I was referring to {{tq|Similar to other outbreaks,[1][2][3] the virus was derived from a bat-borne virus}}.  This is definitely BMI. [[User:Lardlegwarmers|Lardlegwarmers]] ([[User talk:Lardlegwarmers|talk]]) 20:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

== No direct progenitor virus found in the wild ==

Propose adding in the section on '''Zoonosis''':

"While investigations into the virus's origins included extensive sampling of wildlife and bats in China, no direct progenitor of SARS-CoV-2 has been conclusively identified in these samples."<ref>Voskarides, K. SARS-CoV-2: tracing the origin, tracking the evolution. ''BMC Med Genomics'' 15, 62 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12920-022-01208-w</ref><ref name="WHOconvened">{{cite web |title=Virus origin / Origins of the SARS-CoV-2 virus |url=https://www.who.int/health-topics/coronavirus/origins-of-the-virus |access-date=23 June 2021 |publisher=WHO |quote=WHO-convened Global Study of the Origins of SARS-CoV-2}}</ref> [[User:Lardlegwarmers|Lardlegwarmers]] ([[User talk:Lardlegwarmers|talk]]) 07:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

:Would seem a bit cherry picked without also included that the basis of the source is that the virus was the result of natural zoonosis (and the the likelihood of future such events is increasing as a result of environmental factors). [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 08:35, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
::I was thinking that it was important context for the intermediate host information.  But I don't mind if you want to just stick that info in the zoonosis section with a hedged statement like "While investigations into the virus's origins included extensive sampling of wildlife and bats in China, no direct progenitor of SARS-CoV-2 has been conclusively identified in these samples. However, the same studies emphasize that the virus is consistent with a natural zoonotic origin and highlight the increasing risk of similar spillover events in the future due to environmental factors such as habitat destruction and increased human-animal interactions." [[User:Lardlegwarmers|Lardlegwarmers]] ([[User talk:Lardlegwarmers|talk]]) 20:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

{{reftalk}}

== Edit Request: Bat Origin Source ==

{{Edit protected|answered=yes}}

Change {{tq|SARS-CoV-2 has close [[Conserved sequence|genetic similarity]] to multiple previously identified [[bat]] [[coronaviruses]], suggesting it crossed over into humans from bats.<ref name="Proximal" /><ref>{{cite journal |last1=Latinne |first1=Alice |last2=Hu |first2=Ben |last3=Olival |first3=Kevin J. |last4=Zhu |first4=Guangjian |last5=Zhang |first5=Libiao |last6=Li |first6=Hongying |last7=Chmura |first7=Aleksei A. |last8=Field |first8=Hume E. |last9=Zambrana-Torrelio |first9=Carlos |last10=Epstein |first10=Jonathan H. |last11=Li |first11=Bei |last12=Zhang |first12=Wei |last13=Wang |first13=Lin-Fa |last14=Shi |first14=Zheng-Li |last15=Daszak |first15=Peter |title=Origin and cross-species transmission of bat coronaviruses in China |journal=[[Nature Communications]] |date=25 August 2020 |volume=11 |issue=1 |pages=4235 |doi=10.1038/s41467-020-17687-3 |pmid=32843626 |pmc=7447761 |bibcode=2020NatCo..11.4235L  |issn=2041-1723}}</ref><ref name="NatureZhou">{{cite journal |vauthors=Zhou P, Yang XL, Wang XG, Hu B, Zhang L, Zhang W, Si HR, Zhu Y, Li B, Huang CL, Chen HD, Chen J, Luo Y, Guo H, Jiang RD, Liu MQ, Chen Y, Shen XR, Wang X, Zheng XS, Zhao K, Chen QJ, Deng F, Liu LL, Yan B, Zhan FX, Wang YY, Xiao GF, Shi ZL |date=February 2020 |title=A pneumonia outbreak associated with a new coronavirus of probable bat origin |journal=[[Nature (journal)|Nature]] |volume=579 |issue=7798 |pages=270–273 |doi=10.1038/s41586-020-2012-7 |pmc=7095418 |pmid=32015507 |bibcode=2020Natur.579..270Z }}</ref><ref name="LancetNowcasting">{{cite journal |vauthors=Perlman S |date=February 2020 |title=Another Decade, Another Coronavirus |journal=[[The New England Journal of Medicine]] |volume=382 |issue=8 |pages=760–762 |doi=10.1056/NEJMe2001126 |pmc=7121143 |pmid=31978944 }}</ref><ref name="MedVirEvolution">{{cite journal |vauthors=Benvenuto D, Giovanetti M, Ciccozzi A, Spoto S, Angeletti S, Ciccozzi M |date=April 2020 |title=The 2019-new coronavirus epidemic: Evidence for virus evolution |journal=[[Journal of Medical Virology]] |volume=92 |issue=4 |pages=455–459 |doi=10.1002/jmv.25688 |pmid=31994738 |pmc=7166400}}</ref>}} to: SARS-CoV-2 has close [[genetic similarity]] to multiple previously identified [[bat]] [[coronaviruses]], suggesting it crossed over into humans from bats.<ref>Hu, B.; Guo, H.; Zhou, P.; Shi, Z. L. (March 2021). "Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19". ''Nature Reviews Microbiology''. '''19''' (3): 141–154. [https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7537588/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7537588/]. doi:10.1038/s41579-020-00459-7. PMID 33024307.</ref> [[User:Lardlegwarmers|Lardlegwarmers]] ([[User talk:Lardlegwarmers|talk]]) 01:47, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
:{{partly done}} I have removed the sentence entirely, since bat origin is already mentioned in the preceding paragraph. [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 03:00, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

{{reftalk}}

== Edit Request: Remove or tag non-MEDRS citation ==

{{Edit request|answered=yes}}

In the following passage:

::{{tq|Similar to other outbreaks,<ref name="AguirreCatherina_2020">{{cite journal |last1=Aguirre |first1=A. Alonso |last2=Catherina |first2=Richard |last3=Frye |first3=Hailey |last4=Shelley |first4=Louise |title=Illicit Wildlife Trade, Wet Markets, and COVID-19: Preventing Future Pandemics |journal=World Medical & Health Policy |date=September 2020 |volume=12 |issue=3 |pages=256–265 |doi=10.1002/wmh3.348 |pmid=32837772 |pmc=7362142 |language=en |issn=1948-4682}}</ref><ref name="KhanImtiaz_2022">{{cite journal |last1=Khan |first1=Shahneaz Ali |last2=Imtiaz |first2=Mohammed Ashif |last3=Islam |first3=Md Mazharul |last4=Tanzin |first4=Abu Zubayer |last5=Islam |first5=Ariful |last6=Hassan |first6=Mohammad Mahmudul |title=Major bat-borne zoonotic viral epidemics in Asia and Africa: A systematic review and meta-analysis |journal=Veterinary Medicine and Science |date=10 May 2022 |volume=8 |issue=4 |pages=1787–1801 |doi=10.1002/vms3.835 |pmid=35537080 |pmc=9297750 |issn=2053-1095}}</ref><ref name="JanickiScarr_2021">{{cite news |last1=Janicki |first1=Julia |last2=Scarr |first2=Simon |last3=Tai |first3=Catherine |title=Bats and the origin of outbreaks |url=https://www.reuters.com/graphics/HEALTH-CORONAVIRUS/BATS/qzjpqglbxpx/ |access-date=31 March 2023 |work=Reuters |date=2 March 2021 |language=en}}</ref> the virus was derived from a [[Bat virome|bat-borne virus]] and most likely was transmitted to humans [[zoonotic|via another animal]] in nature, or during wildlife [[bushmeat]] trade such as that in food markets.{{refn|name=MostLikelyZoonotic|This assessment has been made by numerous virologists, geneticists, evolutionary biologists, professional societies, and published in multiple peer-reviewed journal articles.<ref name="WHOconvened">{{cite web |title=Virus origin / Origins of the SARS-CoV-2 virus |url=https://www.who.int/health-topics/coronavirus/origins-of-the-virus |access-date=23 June 2021 |publisher=WHO |quote=WHO-convened Global Study of the Origins of SARS-CoV-2}}</ref><ref name="EA-20200317">{{cite news |work=[[EurekAlert!]] |publisher=Scripps Research Institute |title=The COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin, scientists say – Scripps Research's analysis of public genome sequence data from SARS‑CoV‑2 and related viruses found no evidence that the virus was made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered |url=https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-03/sri-tcc031720.php |date=17 March 2020 |access-date=15 April 2020 |archive-date=11 May 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200511160909/https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-03/sri-tcc031720.php |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal |last1=Latinne |first1=Alice |last2=Hu |first2=Ben |last3=Olival |first3=Kevin J. |last4=Zhu |first4=Guangjian |last5=Zhang |first5=Libiao |last6=Li |first6=Hongying |last7=Chmura |first7=Aleksei A. |last8=Field |first8=Hume E. |last9=Zambrana-Torrelio |first9=Carlos |last10=Epstein |first10=Jonathan H. |last11=Li |first11=Bei |last12=Zhang |first12=Wei |last13=Wang |first13=Lin-Fa |last14=Shi |first14=Zheng-Li |last15=Daszak |first15=Peter |title=Origin and cross-species transmission of bat coronaviruses in China |journal=[[Nature Communications]] |date=25 August 2020 |volume=11 |issue=1 |pages=4235 |doi=10.1038/s41467-020-17687-3 |pmid=32843626 |pmc=7447761 |bibcode=2020NatCo..11.4235L |issn=2041-1723}}</ref><ref name="Proximal">{{cite journal |vauthors=Andersen KG, Rambaut A, Lipkin WI, Holmes EC, Garry RF |date=17 March 2020 |title=Correspondence: The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2 |journal=[[Nature Medicine]] |volume=26 |issue=4 |pages=450–452 |doi=10.1038/s41591-020-0820-9 |pmc=7095063 |pmid=32284615 }}</ref><ref name="NYT_Scientists_Calls"/><ref name="Hu2020natureReviews">{{cite journal |last1=Hu |first1=Ben |last2=Guo |first2=Hua |last3=Zhou |first3=Peng |last4=Shi |first4=Zheng-Li |title=Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19 |journal=Nature Reviews. Microbiology |date=6 October 2020 |volume=19 |issue=3 |pages=141–154 |doi=10.1038/s41579-020-00459-7 |pmid=33024307 |pmc=7537588 |issn=1740-1526}}</ref><ref name="NationalGeoPangolin">{{cite news |last1=Kramer |first1=Jillian |title=Here's what the WHO report found on the origins of COVID-19 |url=https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/heres-what-the-who-report-found-on-the-origins-of-covid-19 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210331003307/https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/heres-what-the-who-report-found-on-the-origins-of-covid-19 |url-status=dead |archive-date=31 March 2021 |access-date=7 June 2021 |work=Science |date=30 March 2021 |quote=Most scientists are not surprised by the report's conclusion that SARS-CoV-2 most likely jumped from an infected bat or pangolin to another animal and then to a human.}}</ref>}} }}

Request to <u>remove citation ''{{tq|Janicki, Julia; Scarr, Simon; Tai, Catherine (2 March 2021). "Bats and the origin of outbreaks". Reuters. Retrieved 31 March 2023.}}''</u> or apply the {{Medrs}} tag.  It appears as [3] in the article, or [9] on this page. 

Reason: It is a newspaper article  (non-peer reviewed, primary source) cited for a biomedical claim: [[User:Lardlegwarmers|Lardlegwarmers]] ([[User talk:Lardlegwarmers|talk]]) 23:48, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> ''[[User:TarnishedPath|<b style="color:#ff0000;">Tar</b><b style="color:#ff7070;">nis</b><b style="color:#ffa0a0;">hed</b><b style="color:#420000;">Path</b>]]''<sup>[[User talk:TarnishedPath|<b style="color:#bd4004;">talk</b>]]</sup> 02:10, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

{{reftalk}}

== Edit Request: remove or tag citation #4 (non-MEDRS) ==
{{edit protected|ans=y}}
Reference 4 (EurekAlert! press release, hidden as a sub-citation that pops up when you hover over citation 10) is deficient.  The claim in the article is a biomedical claim {{tq|: Similar to other outbreaks,<ref name="AguirreCatherina_2020">{{cite journal |last1=Aguirre |first1=A. Alonso |last2=Catherina |first2=Richard |last3=Frye |first3=Hailey |last4=Shelley |first4=Louise |title=Illicit Wildlife Trade, Wet Markets, and COVID-19: Preventing Future Pandemics |journal=World Medical & Health Policy |date=September 2020 |volume=12 |issue=3 |pages=256–265 |doi=10.1002/wmh3.348 |pmid=32837772 |pmc=7362142 |language=en |issn=1948-4682}}</ref><ref name="KhanImtiaz_2022">{{cite journal |last1=Khan |first1=Shahneaz Ali |last2=Imtiaz |first2=Mohammed Ashif |last3=Islam |first3=Md Mazharul |last4=Tanzin |first4=Abu Zubayer |last5=Islam |first5=Ariful |last6=Hassan |first6=Mohammad Mahmudul |title=Major bat-borne zoonotic viral epidemics in Asia and Africa: A systematic review and meta-analysis |journal=Veterinary Medicine and Science |date=10 May 2022 |volume=8 |issue=4 |pages=1787–1801 |doi=10.1002/vms3.835 |pmid=35537080 |pmc=9297750 |issn=2053-1095}}</ref> the virus was derived from a [[Bat virome|bat-borne virus]] and most likely was transmitted to humans [[zoonotic|via another animal]] in nature, or during wildlife [[bushmeat]] trade such as that in food markets.{{refn|name=MostLikelyZoonotic|This assessment has been made by numerous virologists, geneticists, evolutionary biologists, professional societies, and published in multiple peer-reviewed journal articles.<ref name="WHOconvened">{{cite web |title=Virus origin / Origins of the SARS-CoV-2 virus |url=https://www.who.int/health-topics/coronavirus/origins-of-the-virus |access-date=23 June 2021 |publisher=WHO |quote=WHO-convened Global Study of the Origins of SARS-CoV-2}}</ref><ref name="EA-20200317">{{cite news |work=[[EurekAlert!]] |publisher=Scripps Research Institute |title=The COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin, scientists say – Scripps Research's analysis of public genome sequence data from SARS‑CoV‑2 and related viruses found no evidence that the virus was made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered |url=https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-03/sri-tcc031720.php |date=17 March 2020 |access-date=15 April 2020 |archive-date=11 May 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200511160909/https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-03/sri-tcc031720.php |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal |last1=Latinne |first1=Alice |last2=Hu |first2=Ben |last3=Olival |first3=Kevin J. |last4=Zhu |first4=Guangjian |last5=Zhang |first5=Libiao |last6=Li |first6=Hongying |last7=Chmura |first7=Aleksei A. |last8=Field |first8=Hume E. |last9=Zambrana-Torrelio |first9=Carlos |last10=Epstein |first10=Jonathan H. |last11=Li |first11=Bei |last12=Zhang |first12=Wei |last13=Wang |first13=Lin-Fa |last14=Shi |first14=Zheng-Li |last15=Daszak |first15=Peter |title=Origin and cross-species transmission of bat coronaviruses in China |journal=[[Nature Communications]] |date=25 August 2020 |volume=11 |issue=1 |pages=4235 |doi=10.1038/s41467-020-17687-3 |pmid=32843626 |pmc=7447761 |bibcode=2020NatCo..11.4235L |issn=2041-1723}}</ref><ref name="Proximal">{{cite journal |vauthors=Andersen KG, Rambaut A, Lipkin WI, Holmes EC, Garry RF |date=17 March 2020 |title=Correspondence: The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2 |journal=[[Nature Medicine]] |volume=26 |issue=4 |pages=450–452 |doi=10.1038/s41591-020-0820-9 |pmc=7095063 |pmid=32284615 }}</ref><ref name="NYT_Scientists_Calls"/><ref name="Hu2020natureReviews">{{cite journal |last1=Hu |first1=Ben |last2=Guo |first2=Hua |last3=Zhou |first3=Peng |last4=Shi |first4=Zheng-Li |title=Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19 |journal=Nature Reviews. Microbiology |date=6 October 2020 |volume=19 |issue=3 |pages=141–154 |doi=10.1038/s41579-020-00459-7 |pmid=33024307 |pmc=7537588 |issn=1740-1526}}</ref><ref name="NationalGeoPangolin">{{cite news |last1=Kramer |first1=Jillian |title=Here's what the WHO report found on the origins of COVID-19 |url=https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/heres-what-the-who-report-found-on-the-origins-of-covid-19 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210331003307/https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/heres-what-the-who-report-found-on-the-origins-of-covid-19 |url-status=dead |archive-date=31 March 2021 |access-date=7 June 2021 |work=Science |date=30 March 2021 |quote=Most scientists are not surprised by the report's conclusion that SARS-CoV-2 most likely jumped from an infected bat or pangolin to another animal and then to a human.}}</ref>}}}}

Reasons:

•The source is a ''press release'' 
 
•The study referenced in the source is ''primary research''.

Request: Remove the citation or flag it with an appropriate tag (e.g., {{Medrs}}.) [[User:Lardlegwarmers|Lardlegwarmers]] ([[User talk:Lardlegwarmers|talk]]) 02:29, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:[[File:Semi-protection-unlocked.svg|28px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to [[Help:Editing|edit the page yourself]]. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details.<!-- Template:ESp --> Protection has been downgraded to semi. It should now be possible to make the removal yourself. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 20:30, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::[[User:Lardlegwarmers|Lardlegwarmers]], if you've identified {{em|specific}} sources that you believe are unsuitable can you please just remove them or use {{em|inline}} tags as you've proposed here? Using an article-wide tag like you have makes it harder to find which sources you believe are problematic. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 01:06, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::My edit summary for the article-wide tag included reference to my talk page entry on "Faulty Sources", which was my basis for applying the tag.  There are also other non-RS in the article and I have begun removing them.  In some cases, there are now claims with no references and they will be tagged as "source needed".  The primary sources in the article are self-evident.  Refer to [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources]] for more information. [[User:Lardlegwarmers|Lardlegwarmers]] ([[User talk:Lardlegwarmers|talk]]) 08:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

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