View source for Talk:Goth slang

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I have only just started writing this page, please do not delete it is still being added to.[[User:Deathlibrarian|Deathlibrarian]] 12:47, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

This article has not been reposted, it has been completely re written.
it was previously deleted because it was unverified, it is now verified with references to the terms where they have been expained in other published material. 
I cannot see any reason to delete this material. [[User:Deathlibrarian|Deathlibrarian]] 12:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)



Please remove the top "article for deletion" banner so the page can be used [[User:Deathlibrarian|Deathlibrarian]] 12:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

:It's non-notable information - most of these terms don't appear to be in any kind of common usage, even among goths, based on a google search for each of them. Since [[WP:NOT|Wikipedia is not]] an indiscriminate collection of information, and this appears to be largely non-notable and unnecessary information, I'm sticking with the Speedy tag (it'd be either this one, or the original <nowiki>{{db-nonsense}}</nowiki> one). [[User:RandyWang|RandyWang]] (<span style="font-size: smaller;"><sup>[[User talk:RandyWang|'''raves''']]</sup>/<sub>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/RandyWang 2|'''review me!''']]</sub></span>) 12:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

::As I understand it, the <nowiki>{{hangon}}</nowiki> tag goes ''after'' the speedy tag - ie, the latter remains in place while an administrator reviews what to do with the page. [[User:RandyWang|RandyWang]] (<span style="font-size: smaller;"><sup>[[User talk:RandyWang|'''raves''']]</sup>/<sub>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/RandyWang 2|'''review me!''']]</sub></span>) 12:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The article is fully referenced to published works on the goth subculture. In addition, I am a goth and use these terms. Please refer to the published works if you wish to query them rather than a google search.
In addition, discussion of slang terms, and slang happens in many instances in Wikipedia.
This information is of note to goths, those interested in goth subculture (to which page is it connects), and slang. If you personally are not interested, or find it non notable, no one is forcing you to read it. [[User:Deathlibrarian|Deathlibrarian]] 13:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)  

[[User:Deathlibrarian|Deathlibrarian]] 13:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

:[[WP:WINAD|Wikipedia is not a dictionary]]: these terms need to be notable or otherwise important, but simply aren't. 

:On an irrelevant note, I, too, am something of a goth (as evidenced by [[User:Phaedriel/Soundtrack of Wikipedians|my soundtrack]]). However, belong to a subculture does not automatically make one an expert on it, nor does it make obscure aspects of that subculture notable enough to warrant an encyclopedia entry. [[User:RandyWang|RandyWang]] (<span style="font-size: smaller;"><sup>[[User talk:RandyWang|'''raves''']]</sup>/<sub>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/RandyWang 2|'''review me!''']]</sub></span>) 13:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

This is not a dictionary entry, it is a list of slang terms. Wikipedia has many lists of slang terms in its discussion of slang, just some include:
* [[Aussie Slang]]
* [[Bargoens]] (Dutch slang)
* [[Boston slang]]
* [[Bypassing]]
* [[Canadian slang]]
* [[Christianese]]
* [[Drug slang]]
* [[Engrish]]
* [[Euphemism]]
* [[Gay slang]]
* [[Geordie Slang]]
* [[Germanía]]
* [[Grypsera]]
* [[Grunge speak]]
* [[Goffal]] slang
* [[Helsinki slang]]
* [[Hip hop slang]]
* [[Indonesian slang language|Indonesian slang]]
* [[Internet slang]]
* [[Irish slang]]
* [[London slang]]
* [[Lunfardo]]
* [[Mandarin slang]]
* [[Medical slang]]
* [[Polari]]
* [[Profanity]]
* [[Skateboarding Slang]]
* [[Sexual slang]] 
* [[Trinidadian slang]]

I would think that if you were a goth you would have heard of at least some of these terms.
I didn't need books to hear terms like "Gothing up", "spot the goth" "cyber goth", "Baby bats" or "Mansonite". They are commonplace terms that all goths know.[[User:Deathlibrarian|Deathlibrarian]] 14:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

== AfD vs CSD ==

The contesting of the article is valid enough for [[WP:DRV]].  Please post the appeal there before recreating.  [[User:Geogre|Geogre]] 14:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Please note this is a new article, not substantially identical to the previous one. It is now fully verified, as per Wikipedia requirements. [[User:Deathlibrarian|Deathlibrarian]] 15:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

== Notable and reliable sources ==

As I said in the AfD, I feel it's important that terms on this list are supported by notable reliable sources. I voted Keep on the basis that this article referenced published books, but we need to prevent it from being used to promote neologisms. A few new terms have just been added to the introduction without references (gogan, flinders St goth, post office goth, crow makeup, blow fish). I've requested sources, but I suspect these are non-notable terms (Google reveals hardly anything for most of them). [[User:Mdwh|Mdwh]] 01:55, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

:The sources are a real mess at the moment, I'm going to look through the history and try sort it out. - [[User:Deathrocker|Deathrocker]] 07:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

==Compromise==
It seems that there's a disagreement over the importance of this article. As a 3rd party to the issue (I'm just passing through), allow me to suggest another idea: merge this article to [[Gothic subculture]]...

Whatever you do, however, for the sake of continuity it definitely needs to be the same course of action that is taken with other (subculture) slang articles. [[User:66.229.160.94|66.229.160.94]] 08:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

:Although [[Goth subculture]] gets the message "This page is 32 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable", so we should really be moving stuff to separate articles if possible rather than merging back in in my opinion, and this seems a good candidate for a separate article. What advantages are there to a merge? [[User:Mdwh|Mdwh]] 10:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

==Gothic Lolita==

Is no sub type of Goth. Deleted that :) --[[User:217.237.151.34|217.237.151.34]] 19:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

:I would agree with removing the first reference as an example of a "sub type" since it's not really an example in the same sense as cybergoth. But I think the term is worth including in the list of slang terms still, especially as it has a reference. [[User:Mdwh|Mdwh]] 21:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

:Theyre are actually subtypes of goth

Romantic Goth
Erthial Goth
Cyber Goth
Perky Goth

:)

[[User:Superme|Superme]] 01:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


==Examples==

"doom cookie" according to the most popular definiton on UrbanDictionary.com as well as definition on Encyclopedia Gothica refers to the fact that the person lacks understanding of the goth subculture but is attempting to give others the impression that he or she does, and is thus seen as "other-than-genuine". Urban dictionary also uses gender neutral language.

In my opinion the current definition "A derogatory term directed particularly at young goth women." is misleading in that it leaves the general reader with the impression that young women are generally denigrated amongst goths. It also erradicates the sense of "other-than-genuine" carried in these 2 sources. A "goth female" in plain language means an "authentic goth female".  

In order to better align the definition with the secondary sources I would like to change the text for the definition to:

"doom cookie : A derogatory term for a person (particularily a young female) who is seen as other-than-genuine in the goth scene."

Does anyone object?

[[User:TheDarknessVisible|TheDarknessVisible]] 03:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

:Should we mention women at all, if that's the problem, and there's no evidence that this is used for women in particular? [[User:Mdwh|Mdwh]] 04:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

::Encyclopedia Gothica includes the reference to "doom cookie" usually being used particularily for "young gothy females", lacking a more authoritative source we haven't got much choice. Does it make sense for wiki to cite urbandictionary.com at all, considering that it is not an academic source?  An improved definition that at least indicates the context of the denigration would be more accurate and useful to the general reader than simply stating  it's a denigration.  I chose the words "in the goth scene" as this avoids using the slang "gothy" in the definition and is therefore more accessible to general readers than "gothy". "young goth women" is also simply wrong as "young gothy females" (from EG) does not mean "young goth women". "gothy" and "goth" do not mean the same thing.  The original "young females" is superior language for an encyclopedia so there is no reason to change "young females" to "young women". So after all that I still propose "doom cookie : A derogatory term for a person (particularily a young female) who is seen as other-than-genuine in the goth scene." as a significant improvement.  But if it were based on my personal research I would drop the gender requirement.  However I do not feel strongly about that issue as I am willing to accept Encyclopedia Gothica as more authoritative than my personal anecdotes which can't be reliable outside of my local goth scene.
[[User:TheDarknessVisible|TheDarknessVisible]] 09:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


I updated the definition of "doom cookie". I'm removing the reference to "chinese techno goth". This is not goth slang. The only references I could find to it on google are this wiki page and a 'babybat' who cut'n'paste this wiki page vertabim into their blog. I believe it is self promotion, or a mistake. Encyclopedia Gothica doesn't list this. I've never heard of it in 14 years in the scene. It is also missing from UrbanDictionary.com.  If I search for the band name "Planescape Chaotica" I get 3 hits on google. By comparison "Switchblade Symphony" gets 282,000 hits.  "Bauhaus" gets over 8 million hits. [[User:TheDarknessVisible|TheDarknessVisible]] 19:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm removing "Whitby" as goth slang. The wiki article on "Whitby Gothic Weekend" says that attendee's call it "Whitby".  This term is not goth slang. It is slang amongst a particular local goth scene. Every local scene is going to have its own vernacular, but this page refers to slang goths internationally would use. 
:I've heard "Whitby" used by anyone who's heard of WGW, not just people who attend. It's not like there's much else going on in Whitby that far-flung goths would regularly discuss. [[User:4.131.37.148|4.131.37.148]] 08:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I am also changing some of the slang terms to plain bold rather than RED (which is an invitation to write a wiki article.)  Certain terms such as "Doom cookie" don't warrant a wiki article.[[User:TheDarknessVisible|TheDarknessVisible]] 19:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I still think the current form of Doom/Gloom Cookie could use some help, but more for experiential reasons than that I have a citation to back it up with. It's the ''cookie'' part of the word that was associated with young females, initially, but not exclusively. I've never heard Doom/Gloom assigned respectively to particular genders, unless it's an extremely recent thing or something peculiar to one particular internet forum. Rather, I've always heard them used interchangeably. (Another term that used to be used was Devil Bunny, but I think that was a reference to a song - Thrill Kill Kult, maybe? - and used mostly to refer to goth girls by people in other alternative subcultures in the 90s, not necessarily in a derogatory manner.) [[User:4.131.37.148|4.131.37.148]] 08:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Also - the definitions from Nancy Kilpatrick are not generally 100% correct. It's vital to understand, when using it as a reference, that the majority of her book was based on the same sort of opinion that would be found on any goth website, and the rest was based on a survey that only had a little over 100 respondents, some of whom don't seem to have filled out the whole thing, or who sometimes gave flippant answers. (NK used to have many posted on her website, IIRC.) "Graver," for example, is a term that I first heard in 1995, which means it had to have been in existence for a while before that, and it was NOT about "cybergoths who go to raves" - though it may have mutated into that. Rather, it was about ravers who wore black and occasionally showed up at goth clubs. It may have been other things in other regions. The "perky goth" definition was incorrect and subjective, so I've amended it with another subjective definition that I think is more true to the initial spirit of the word. If people are using it in both senses, then both are valid slang. (Oh, dear, I'm watching 120 Minutes and "Bloodletting" just came on! Haha.) [[User:4.131.37.148|4.131.37.148]] 09:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

==wtf==

This is the stupidest article yet, and I doubt you will draw the "kind" of people who could actually testify these words because they probably would not care about it. If the point of a counter culture is to "counter" conformation and express oneself in an alternative way, then what would be the point of setting "archtypes" to once again "close" ones entire self into a "subtype" of person. Therefore, no one who is probably a participate of the subculture would care or endorse any of this. What is a "perky goth". My spouse is normally happy and outgoing, she is not "feigning" anything and she listens to traditional goth rock. You make it sound as if happiness/sadness is an issue and that one is "supposed" to be "sad". These look more like slang for people outside of the subculture and looking at it (and of course misunderstanding it entirely). They just reinforce false and unfounded stereotypes. All of these are horrible sources, linking to sites with google ads all over. Furthermore, it is horribly written. Why is "worship trent.." worded as if they literally "worship" a frontman for a band? This looks like one of those emails people pass around.