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= December 11 =

== Heraldry ==
Would it be proper to describe a dark red shield with a lot of three-lobed gold flowers on it as "Sanguine, semee of trefoils Or"? [[User:Black Carrot|Black Carrot]] ([[User talk:Black Carrot|talk]]) 09:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

:[[Trefoil]]s seems wrong; that refers to three-leafed grass or clover. If you can't determine the flower, you could say ''semée of flowers or, three-petalled''. Sometimes the [[fleur-de-lis]] is improperly called a trefoil; if the flowers are [[fleur-de-lis]], you should use ''semée-de-lis or'' (see [[:Image:Héraldique meuble Semé de fleus de lys.svg|this image]]). A three-petalled flower said to be [[trillium]] is sported next to a fleur-de-lis in the [[Franco-Ontarian#Franco-Ontarian flag|Franco-Ontarian flag]]. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam|Lambiam]] 12:58, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

::Wow, I got closer than I thought. I didn't think clover was a standard charge, so I just called it a flower. What's the usual tincture for clover? It seems like green would be more fitting, but apparently color-on-color violates some fundamental rule. [[User:Black Carrot|Black Carrot]] ([[User talk:Black Carrot|talk]]) 13:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

:::There's a technical loophole -- "Gules, a trefoil Vert" would violate the tincture rule, but "Gules, a trefoil proper" might often be depicted in the same way, but is not as clear a violation... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 14:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

::Also, is there a closer tincture to crimson than "sanguine"? Something a bit more purple? [[User:Black Carrot|Black Carrot]] ([[User talk:Black Carrot|talk]]) 14:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

:::Heraldic tinctures are intended to be easily distinguishable from each other, so their number is necessarily limited.  Among the standard tinctures, there's Gules (red) and Purpure (purple).  Sanguine is technically a "stain" (not an ordinary heraldic color), and is not used all that frequently in heraldry (at least in British-based heraldry), and can have negative connotations in certain contexts (it's supposed to be the color of blood).  [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 14:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
::::There's also [[Murrey]], though that's a bit dark.  <font face="Comic Sans">[[User:Corvus cornix|<span style="color:green">Corvus cornix</span>]]<sub>''[[User talk:Corvus cornix|<span style="color:Dark Green">talk</span>]]''</sub></font> 17:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Good to know. I'll stick to Gules. What would be the best way to describe several or many green clovers scattered over the field? The article says that semé describes the background, not the charge itself, so it seems like it'd be stretching things to call it proper as well. On the other hand, on the color side of things, would it be possible to use [[fimbriation]] to get around the rule? The most natural outline is black, which unfortunately isn't a metal, but white or gold could look right. [[User:Black Carrot|Black Carrot]] ([[User talk:Black Carrot|talk]]) 17:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

:If you are still interested in a field sprinkled with flowers, you can find here [http://www.baronage.co.uk/bphtm-02/moa-15.html] Charlemagne's banner described as "Azure semé of fleurs-de-lis Or" and the France ancient arms. A semé or semy of fleur de lis can be described as fleury, but that can cause confusion as fleury is also used to describe a decoration of the ends of a cross (cross fleury or croix fleury). [[User:SaundersW|SaundersW]] ([[User talk:SaundersW|talk]]) 20:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

: It is "possible to use fimbriation to get around the rule," but fimbriation of any but the simplest charges does not get around the ''reason'' for the rule.  —[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 06:39, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

== Epithets / Epithet-names ==

John "the merciful"

Roy "Swifthand" Williams

Frida "Stoutheart"

Richard "the bald"


All those are Epithet-names, right? I'm just trying to figure out if i have understood the meaning of Epithet-names correctly, and if i can use Epithets behind names or in between first and last names like i did in these four examples i made up?

[[Special:Contributions/85.164.187.94|85.164.187.94]] ([[User talk:85.164.187.94|talk]]) 15:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

:You got the idea precisely. See this: [http://grammar.about.com/od/e/g/epitheterm.htm] and [[epithet]]. [[User:SaundersW|SaundersW]] ([[User talk:SaundersW|talk]]) 15:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

== from Latin ==

Can you translate:     Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt    ?    I think it's something like:   When catapults are outlawed, only outlaws will have catapults.   Some of the word endings seem incorrect, because the preposition cum takes the ablative.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/66.213.33.2|66.213.33.2]] ([[User talk:66.213.33.2|talk]]) 18:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:This is intended to be, not [http://archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/dict?name=ls&lang=la&word=cum%231 the preposition ''cum''], but [http://archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/dict?name=ls&lang=la&word=cum%232 the conjunction ''cum''] (''cum''...''tum'' correlative just like English "when...then").  ''Proscript'' would seem to be a typo for ''proscripti''.  [[User:Wareh|Wareh]] ([[User talk:Wareh|talk]]) 18:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
:Where can I get this on a bumper sticker for my chariot? -[[User:SandyJax|SandyJax]] ([[User talk:SandyJax|talk]]) 15:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

== Will you help my son and I/me solve the problem of the useage of the words "I/me"? ==

This was a homework assignment I couldn't help him with.  I don't know the
rules for using I and me in sentences; and I have a degree in Elementary
Education!!
Spencer and I went Shopping. (I know that's correct).
But why isn't:  My sister wants Spencer and I to go shopping with her.
also correct?  (I know the correct word is me, because I'm looking at his
homework assignment)
I want to understand this once and for all so that I can teach him.  I don't
want to take up his teacher's time, plus I don't want to chance the fact that
she didn't teach it correctly and put her on the spot, or should I?  And admit
I don't know?
Please help me.
Thanks.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/63.215.29.222|63.215.29.222]] ([[User talk:63.215.29.222|talk]]) 20:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:In your second sentence "Spencer and I" is the object of the verb, thus you need the object form, "me". This will be obvious to you if you take away the Spencer part: "my sister wants I to go shopping with her"--would you say this? No. You would say "my sister wants me to go shopping with her".--[[User:Eriastrum|Eriastrum]] ([[User talk:Eriastrum|talk]]) 20:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

::Absolutely correct.
:::Not so much. "Spencer and me" is the subject of the infinitive "to go". --[[User:Milkbreath|Milkbreath]] ([[User talk:Milkbreath|talk]]) 22:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
::To help you remember, think of kids' excuses for fighting: 
::''I did it to her before she could do it to me.''
::"I" perform the action, and the action is performed to or on "me".
::And simply remove the rest of the list, no matter how long, to get at the essential.
::''[[Catherine the Great]], [[Boudicea]], [[Thomas Aquinas]] and I wanted to see if we could find suitable Christmas gifts to match the ones that the [[Vanderbilt family]] had given last year to [[Amelia Earhart]], [[Amelia Bedelia]], [[A.A. Milne]], [[A.A. Gill]] and me.''
::[[User:BrainyBabe|BrainyBabe]] ([[User talk:BrainyBabe|talk]]) 20:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

::: Children are (or used to be) taught that it's wrong to say things like 'Me and my friend went shopping', and by a process of [[false analogy]] people sometimes assume that they should use "my friend and I" in all cases. Another example of this [[hypercorrection]] is the expression '[[between you and I]]'. [[User:AndrewWTaylor|AndrewWTaylor]] ([[User talk:AndrewWTaylor|talk]]) 20:37, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

::::The point of this "Me and Roger" language rule is/was to efface or minimise the self, as in letting others pass through the door one holds open. It is a linguistic display of the important principle that children need to learn, that they do not (always) come first. [[User:BrainyBabe|BrainyBabe]] ([[User talk:BrainyBabe|talk]]) 21:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
::::: Yes, I remember being told that; but along with that lesson in etiquette, children ''also'' learn a wrong lesson in grammar.  —[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 05:59, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

:(mammoth edit conflict) [[Grammatical case#Cases in English]] pretty much says it. [[Subjective pronoun]] and [[Objective pronoun]] have some information. You have to know grammar to select the right case for your pronouns, and sometimes standard usage defies the grammar ("It's me", for example). In your case, "My sister wants Spencer and I to go shopping with her", you can simply replace "Spencer and I/me" with "us/we" and trust your ear. Nobody would say "My sister wants ''we'' to go shopping with her." "Spencer and me" is equivalent to "us".
::[[Rastafarian]]s would indeed say "my sister want we to go" -- and this has influenced [[Jamaican English]], and thus teenage British variants -- I won't say "slang" because I am not sure if the kids recognise the register shift. (Rastas also say "[[I and I]]", but that's another story.) [[User:BrainyBabe|BrainyBabe]] ([[User talk:BrainyBabe|talk]]) 21:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
:The sentence is devilishly difficult to parse. "Want" cannot take an indirect object. "Spencer and me to go" is the direct object of "want". "Spencer and me" is the subject of the infinitve "to go". Now, you want confusing? The [http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000376.htm subject of an infinitive] ''takes the objective case''! Challenge your son's teacher to parse that sentence.
:All that said, there is a tendency nowadays in some places to just go with "I" in informal contexts whenever things get complicated. This mistake is starting to assume the appearance of a grammar shift in English even farther away than it has already gone from the idea of case in pronouns. For now, though, I think it's still good to stick to the right case when you can, in formal settings, at least.  --[[User:Milkbreath|Milkbreath]] ([[User talk:Milkbreath|talk]]) 20:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

As a rule of thumb, try using other pronouns, such as "he/him" or "she/her" to see how they work.
*He wants her to stay.
*&#42;He wants she to stay.
*He wants me to stay.
*&#42;He wants I to stay.

From the above, you can thus see that
*My sister wants Spencer and me to go shopping with her.
is correct. :)

But note also:
#You are taller than him.
#You are taller than he is.
#You are taller than he.
#You are taller than me.
#You are taller than I am.
#You are taller than I.

IMHO 3 and 6 are awful, but some people [[Linguistic prescription|proscribe]] 1 and 4, saying that 3 and 6 should be used instead. --'''[[User:Kjoonlee|Kjoon]]'''[[User talk:Kjoonlee|lee]] 21:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

:Whereas, to my ear, 1 and 4 suggest ignorance of the basic rules of ellipsis. On the other hand, I have come to terms with "It's me" by replacing it with "'Tis I" which is so pretentious as to be a personal trademark now. [[User:Bielle|Bielle]] ([[User talk:Bielle|talk]])  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|comment]] was added at 22:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::Pretending to be pretentious (is there a word for this - ''meta-pretentiousness'', perhaps?) can be great fun, though.  When I make a phone call, after the other person has answered ''"Hello"'' or whatever, I sometimes start with ''"It is I, Jack, who am calling"''. (That identifies me far better than the sound of my voice. Only this particular Jack would ever have the gall to utter such words.) I always pick my mark, though; mostly, I just say ''"Hi, it's Jack"''.  --  [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 23:01, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

:::Oooh, I know the concept and I like the word!  I shall adopt "meta-pretentiousness".  It is sort of chuckling up one's own batwing sleeve. [[User:BrainyBabe|BrainyBabe]] ([[User talk:BrainyBabe|talk]]) 08:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:The best way to remember it is the break it up.
'''Correct''':
:My sister wants Spencer and me to go shopping with her
:My sister wants me to go shopping with her

'''Incorrect''':
:My sister wants Spencer and I to go shopping with her
:My sister wants I to go shopping with her

'''Correct''':
:Spencer and I like shopping
:I like shopping

'''Incorrect''':
:Spencer and me like shopping
:Me like shopping

Just take out the other people in the sentence and see whether I/me sounds right on its own. I hope that helps! :) --[[User:Candy-Panda|Candy-Panda]] ([[User talk:Candy-Panda|talk]]) 09:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

== "apotheosis" ==

what is the etymology of the word "apotheosis" ?  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/209.155.229.171|209.155.229.171]] ([[User talk:209.155.229.171|talk]]) 20:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:It's from Greek: ''apo'' = "change," ''theos'' = "god," and the "''sis''" suffix indicates a process of placing or setting, (e.g., [[synthesis]]).  Thus, the term means, "To elevate to godhood." [[User_talk:Zahakiel|<span style="text-decoration:none">◄</span>]][[User:Zahakiel|<font color = "indigo"><span style="text-decoration:none">Zahakiel</span></font>]][[Special:Contributions/Zahakiel|<span style="text-decoration:none">►</span>]] 21:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

::You have the right general idea, but some of your morpheme segmentation is a little dodgy.  Apo- is a preposition/adverb which primarily means "away from", -the- is the stem of the word ''theos'' "god", -o- is a vowel used to form a denominal  verb (here a long vowel spelled with Omega, as opposed to the o of ''theos'', which is a short vowel spelled with Omicron), -s- is a nominalizer, -i- is the noun declension vowel, and the word-final -s indicates nominative singular case and number. [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 01:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:::As AnonMoos says, the suffix of the verb θε-όω (''theoō'', "deify") turns the noun ''theos'' "god" into the [[factitive]] verb "to make ''X'' a god" (see [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007&query=head%3D%23272 Smyth, ''Greek Grammar'', 866(3)]), and when you in turn make a noun from such a verb, it ends in ''-ōsis''.  The ''apo-'' prefix has a good parallel in ''[http://archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/dict?name=lsj&lang=el&word=a%29poliqo%2fw&filter=CUTF8 apolithoō]'' "petrify," but it's hard to tie this to the best-established meaning "away from."  I believe that most, if forced to answer for it, would say that ''apo-'' is here "intensive," which means that the transformation to god (or stone) is utter & complete. [[User:Wareh|Wareh]] ([[User talk:Wareh|talk]]) 02:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

::::It's a little peculiar that αποθεος as an adjective means "far from God, godless", while αποθεοω as a verb (formed from exactly the same stems) means "to deify"... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 15:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::Yes, this shows the coincidence of two quite different uses of the ''apo-'' prefix.  By the way, after so much discussion, I've just looked into [[Eduard Schwyzer|Schwyzer]]'s ''Griechische Grammatik'', where, indeed, he says (II.445) that the combination of ''apo-'' with an ''-oō'' verb is merely intensive ("Verst&auml;rkung").  On the facing page Schwyzer includes ''apotheos'' under examples of ''apo-'' "without, -less."  [[User:Wareh|Wareh]] ([[User talk:Wareh|talk]]) 16:37, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

::::This may be helpful, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apotheosis .--[[User:Mike robert|Mike robert]] ([[User talk:Mike robert|talk]]) 06:31, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

= December 12 =

== A general comment and suggestion ==

As I have noticed in WP articles and entrees (by the way, does WP have an alphabetical list of entrees?) proper nouns, mostly persons and places, do not have phonetic representation (and this is a common negative feature in many encyclopedia); i.e. you cannot know how such names as Bagehot (Eng.), Chantilly (Fr.), Feuerbach (Ger.), Guerrazzi (It.) and Xerxes (Gr. from Per.) are pronounced by their native users. If anyone on the WP Language Reference Desk tries to provide this phonetic equivalent for entrees related to his/her mother tongue, it will be an achievement for both WP and its users. Please let me know what you think. --[[User:Omidinist|Omidinist]] ([[User talk:Omidinist|talk]]) 06:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
:An alphabetical list of all pages on Wikipedia can be found at [[Special:Allpages]].
:Wikipedia uses the [[International Phonetic Alphabet]] for pronunciation guides.  A couple of the articles you listed - [[Walter Bagehot]] and [[Xerxes I of Persia]] - do indeed have IPA pronunciations listed.  It would be nice if all articles on foreign or obscure names or words had IPA pronunciation guides, but they unfortunately can only appear if someone adds them - if you're familiar with IPA and would like to add some that would certainly be appreciated.  If there are any specific articles you wish to have an IPA guide added to, please list them here, and it's quite possible someone who knows IPA and the proper pronunciations will wander by and add them. -[[User:Elmer Clark|Elmer Clark]] ([[User talk:Elmer Clark|talk]]) 06:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:(Edit conflict) Many articles do contain phonetic representations. As to those which do not, I would say an obstacle that prevents people from adding phonetic representations is that, while the only objective way of representing the pronunciation is to use [[International Phonetic Alphabet|IPA]], many people complain that they can't read IPA. Instead, they want "English" representations as found in a traveler's phrasebook. Here the problem comes - chances are that your "English" is different from mine. By the way, yes, there is an alphabetical list of entries: [[Wikipedia:Quick index]]. Cheers.--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] ([[User talk:K.C. Tang|talk]]) 06:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not have a list of [[entree]]s but it does have a small list of [[hors d'oeuvre]]s. (Sorry! I couldn't resist.) [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] ([[User talk:Adam Bishop|talk]]) 19:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Oh, don't be sorry Adam. I am sorry for the wrong spelling. --[[User:Omidinist|Omidinist]] ([[User talk:Omidinist|talk]]) 19:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

::The problem I have with the IPA is that while I can read it (just about and with a crib), I cannot write it. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 12:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

:::Another possibility is adding audio files.  I have started a [[Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/Embedded Audio Pronunciations|sub-project]] within the [[WP:UKGEO|UK Geography Wikiproject]] to provide sound files containing the standard British English ([[Received Pronunciation]]) pronunciation of as many British place names as possible.  These are then linked in the first sentence of the relevant article, and can be listened to with one click.  I recommend this approach, as it is relatively straightforward to produce the sound files and brings an immediacy and clarity that IPA, for all its benefits, lacks for the casual user.  In fact, you could make any requests for British names [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/Embedded Audio Pronunciations|here at the talk page]] if you wish.  The main issue (not really a problem) is that the [[Ogg]] [[Vorbis]] file format must be used, rather than a more accessible format such as [[mp3]].  [[User:Hassocks5489|Hassocks5489]] ([[User talk:Hassocks5489|talk]]) 12:38, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Excellent job you have done, Hassocks5489. I wish it could be done for each and every proper noun in WP. And then, thanks for all comments. [[User:Omidinist|Omidinist]] ([[User talk:Omidinist|talk]]) 16:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

== Letter head ==
Hi, I am German and I'd like to know how to formally address somebody in a letter head. My first try is "Dear Sir or Madam", so you can see which direction I am heading. Thanks for any helpful suggestion. -- [[Special:Contributions/217.232.38.106|217.232.38.106]] ([[User talk:217.232.38.106|talk]]) 09:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:"Dear Sir or Madam" works perfectly well in a formal letter which is sent to an unknown individual (probably in an organisation). The corresponding formula at the end is "Yours faithfully". [[User:SaundersW|SaundersW]] ([[User talk:SaundersW|talk]]) 09:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:If you're writing to an organisation and don't even have a specific job title to address then you can use "Dear Sirs" but if you're addressing a letter to a specific job title like "Head of ..." then "Dear Sir or Madam" or "Dear Sir/Madam" is standard.[[Special:Contributions/86.143.33.38|86.143.33.38]] ([[User talk:86.143.33.38|talk]]) 10:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

::Hmmm wiki sneakily logged me out. Anyway above comment was me. [[User:TheMathemagician|TheMathemagician]] ([[User talk:TheMathemagician|talk]]) 11:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:::By the way, this is usually called the [[Salutation (greeting)|salutation or greeting]] of a letter. [[Letterhead]] is another name for headed paper, that is, stationery with the name and address of the person or organisation already printed on it. Both articles contain references if you wish to learn more. [[User:BrainyBabe|BrainyBabe]] ([[User talk:BrainyBabe|talk]]) 11:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again for your answers. -- [[Special:Contributions/217.232.38.106|217.232.38.106]] ([[User talk:217.232.38.106|talk]]) 14:11, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:Of course, if you know the gender of the person you are addressing, then you should use ''either'' "Dear Sir" ''or'' "Dear Madam", as the person might be offended if you know their name but find their gender ambiguous. Also, "Yours faithfully" sounds very old-fashioned to my American ears, though it would be excused of a foreigner.  (It may be normal in the United Kingdom.)  The standard formula before the signature in the United States is "Sincerely".  [[User:Marco polo|Marco polo]] ([[User talk:Marco polo|talk]]) 21:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

::The rule here (in the UK) is (or was. Maybe I am just old!) that with "Dear Sir" one uses "Yours faithully" and with "Dear Mr Polo" one uses "Yours sincerely". However formal letters are probably in decline here, and the rules may fall into disuse. [[User:SaundersW|SaundersW]] ([[User talk:SaundersW|talk]]) 23:12, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

::: I'm in my twenties and I was taught at school (UK) that it's Yours Faithfully if you don't know their name and Yours Sincerely if you do. My office uses Kind Regards for all variations though, which is also acceptable.  [[User:MorganaFiolett|MorganaFiolett]] ([[User talk:MorganaFiolett|talk]]) 16:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

"Dear Sir or Madam" is perfectly acceptable for a formal letter, although somewhat old-fashioned. "To Whom It May Concern" is probably more common. -- [[User:Mwalcoff|Mwalcoff]] ([[User talk:Mwalcoff|talk]]) 23:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

::I wasn't thinking straight in my last comment.  If you know the name of the person being addressed, then you wouldn't use "Dear Madam" or "Dear Sir", you'd use "Dear Ms. X" or "Dear Mr. X".  I am not so young myself, but in the United States we would sign the letter in either case with just "Sincerely," followed by your signature.  "To Whom It May Concern" is an acceptable way to begin a letter if you don't particularly care about the impression you make.  To my ears, it has a cold, impersonal, offhand tone.  If you are merely informing the recipient of the letter of something, then "To Whom It May Concern" would be okay.  However, if the letter is asking for something, then "Dear Madam or Sir" is more engaging and probably more effective (if still formal).  [[User:Marco polo|Marco polo]] ([[User talk:Marco polo|talk]]) 01:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

:::To agree with Marco, if you know the name of the person, then "Dear Mr X" (and in the UK, because the abbreviation ends with the last letter of the word abbreviated you don't need a full stop, period, or whatever you might call it!) Mrs X, Dr X or whatever and end with "Yours sincerely".  If you have no idea who will read it, but it is a particular person such as the personnel director, or a notional person in charge of complaints, then "Dear Sir or Madam" is a good start, ending with "yours faithfully". If you are writing an open letter such as a reference which the bearer can show to many people, then "To whom it may concern" would be appropriate. In any case you can see that there are regional or national variations which will make a slight deviation from any "norm" or "rule" not very visible. [[User:SaundersW|SaundersW]] ([[User talk:SaundersW|talk]]) 09:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

:Another thing to consider is that you might want to write the salutation and sign-off by hand rather than typing them.  I believe it is good practice, if you are typing or word processing a letter, to leave gaps at the beginning and end of the letter, where the "Dear Sir/Madam/Mr or Mrs Whoever" and "Yours faithfully/sincerely" would go, print off the letter and then write them in by hand.  This adds a personal touch.  You would also have your name printed at the bottom, below where your signature goes. --[[User:Richardrj|Richardrj]] [[User talk:Richardrj|<sup>talk </sup>]][[Special:Emailuser/Richardrj|<sup>email</sup>]] 16:22, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

== Japanese help ==

What does "私は永久にあなたとありたいと思う" mean? --[[Special:Contributions/124.254.77.148|124.254.77.148]] ([[User talk:124.254.77.148|talk]]) 09:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:"I wanna be with you, forever".--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] ([[User talk:K.C. Tang|talk]]) 09:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! --[[User:Candy-Panda|Candy-Panda]] ([[User talk:Candy-Panda|talk]]) 09:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:But the Japanese sentence is grammatically wrong. It must be “私は永久にあなたと(一緒に)いたいと思う。”. More precisely, it is “I think I wanna be with you forever”.  [[User:Oda Mari|Oda Mari]] <small>([[User talk:Oda Mari|talk]])</small> 14:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

::Yes, we need いる for human beings ... but could that be colloquial? I've no idea.--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] ([[User talk:K.C. Tang|talk]]) 16:12, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:::いる is always used for human beings, animals, whoever/whichever has his/her/its mind and will, including even ghosts! In other words, いる is used for something/body alive. So the (dead) body is ある, and we don't use いる for plants.  We never use ある for human beings. [[User:Oda Mari|Oda Mari]] <small>([[User talk:Oda Mari|talk]])</small> 16:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
:::Oops! I remember exceptions. ''I think, therefore I am'' is “我思う、ゆえに我あり” and it's an established translation. And “I'd rather be honest” can be both “わたしは正直でありたい” and “わたしは正直でいたい”. These ありたい are literally usage. [[User:Oda Mari|Oda Mari]] <small>([[User talk:Oda Mari|talk]])</small> 18:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
::::That makes sense, as ある seemed to be used for both the animate and the inanimate in Classical Japanese. Cheers.--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] ([[User talk:K.C. Tang|talk]]) 01:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::But it is impossible to use “ある” in “I wanna be with you forever”. Unnatural and laughable. [[User:Oda Mari|Oda Mari]] <small>([[User talk:Oda Mari|talk]])</small> 05:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

== Gorge / Ravine / Rift / Canyon etc. ==

What is the right word to use when describing a very narrow "chasm/passage" that forms up in the mountains between higher points and peaks? I have tried to find out by searching the words but all words always just link to "valley", "Dale", "Vale" and such, which is more down in the flat-land, and much larger than what i am after so i am a bit confused, no longer knowing which word is right to use where exactly when there is so many words meaning almost the same...

Imagine a place high up in the mountains where a passage forms between two peaks or high-points, (or even between two mountain walls could be a possibility) and it is so narrow that one has actually built a bridge from side to side to cross. what is this passage below correctly called?

Though, it might not necessarily be THAT narrow, it might be a quite long bridge you know, considering its location.

gorge, ravine, rift, canyon, chasm etc.?

I find it hard to seperate these words and its meanings from one another...

[[Special:Contributions/85.164.187.94|85.164.187.94]] ([[User talk:85.164.187.94|talk]]) 10:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

: If there is a way through, it is called a [[Mountain pass|pass]]. --[[User:Lgriot|Lgriot]] ([[User talk:Lgriot|talk]]) 10:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

what if there is NOT a way through then? if its rocky etc. that one cant walk there?  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/85.164.187.94|85.164.187.94]] ([[User talk:85.164.187.94|talk]]) 10:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Well I wouldn't use george, canyon or ravine, since they are created by a stream or river. Chasm or rift seem to be asociated with tectonic activity. What you are describing was simply not elevated (by chance) as high as the two peaks next to it. So I am not sure there is a name in English for that. Anyone else got an idea? I can only think of "impactical pass" --[[User:Lgriot|Lgriot]] ([[User talk:Lgriot|talk]]) 11:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:The low-lying region between two peaks is a saddle. [http://www.usarak.army.mil/WLC/Map%20Reading_files/image038.jpg] Hooray! My land navigation training is applicable to civilian uses. [[User:EvilCouch|EvilCouch]] ([[User talk:EvilCouch|talk]]) 11:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:"[[Chasm]]" is the generic term for such a thing ([[AHD]]: [http://www.bartleby.com/61/76/C0257600.html ''A deep, steep-sided opening in the earth's surface; an abyss or gorge.'']). A "[[gorge]]" is defined in some dictionaries as what you want, such as [http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=gorge ''Webster's'' 1913]. I can't say that the word "gorge" calls to mind a "mountain defile", but it does mean that. It's from "throat", you know, so its etymology implies a narrow passage more than it does an abyss. I'm going with "gorge".  --[[User:Milkbreath|Milkbreath]] ([[User talk:Milkbreath|talk]]) 13:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

: Our article on [[topographic prominence]] calls such a point a ''col''.  —[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 03:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

== What gets exhumed? ==

As I understand the terms in [US] [[English language|English]]: a grave is exhumed; buried remains are disinterred. Is this usage correct? ''NB: I'd initially posted this query on the'' [[Talk:Burial#Exhume vs. disinter|Talk page of the article on Burial]],'' but have gotten no response there. ''-- Thanks,'' [[User:Deborahjay|Deborahjay]] ([[User talk:Deborahjay|talk]]) 11:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)''

:: According to a couple of on-line dictionaries <i>disinter</i> means to remove remains from a grave. This definition is exactly the same as <i>exhume</i>.  My understanding is that a grave is <i>opened</i> to exhume or disinter the body or remains therein. [[User:Richard Avery|Richard Avery]] ([[User talk:Richard Avery|talk]]) 11:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

::Agree with [[User:Richard Avery|Richard Avery]] that there is no distinction between exhume and disinter. In both cases it is the body/remains which is the object of the verb. Graves cannot be exhumed.[[User:TheMathemagician|TheMathemagician]] ([[User talk:TheMathemagician|talk]]) 13:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:::[[Chambers Dictionary]], 1983 ed., says "'''Exhume''', ''verb transitive'', to take out of the ground or place of burial: to disinter: to bring to light." [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 15:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
::: And "'''Disinter''', ''verb transitive'', to take out of the earth, from a grave, or from obscurity." [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 15:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
::::It seems that exhume is specific to graves. Disinter can be applied to a grave, or simply somewhere where remains have been interred (buried). Thus exhume is a subset of disinter. [[User:Steewi|Steewi]] ([[User talk:Steewi|talk]]) 00:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::As an alternative (if you're into obscure antonyms), 'exter' has been used in print and is thus officially a word. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 06:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

== Jaettu maa ==

What does the Finnish title of [[North and South]] exactly mean? --[[User:KnightMove|KnightMove]] ([[User talk:KnightMove|talk]]) 12:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
:Divided land. ›[[User:mysid|mysid]] ([[User talk:Mysid|☎]][[Special:Contributions/Mysid|∆]]) 12:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:Wouldn't it be "Jättää Maa" instead? [[User:Saukkomies|Saukkomies]] 17:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
::Okay, I just answered my own kuusamus. I was thinking the word would have been "Jättää", meaning "leave or move", but it takes the declined form of the word "Jakaa", which means "to divide". Oops! Thus "Jakaa" declines to "Jake-, and then the passive past participles case ending "-ttu" is added to the end of the word, making it translate into meaning "someone or something has divided...". When the "-ttu" is added to the end of the word "Jake-", the second syllable is closed at the end by the first "t" in "-ttu". This makes it so that the hard "k" in "Jake-" is dropped. So instead of the word turning out to be "Jakettu", the "k" is dropped because of the closed second syllable of "-ket-", so the word becomes "Jaettu" instead. The word "Maa" is pretty straightforward, since it simply means "land" or "world". Thus, when refering to the title of the movie "North and South" that is about the American Civil War, the Finnish translation of the title would literally be "the divided land" (implying that someone divided the land, not that the land divided itself), or something like that... I'm just writing all of this to give people an idea of how the fascinating Finnish language works! [[User:Saukkomies|Saukkomies]] 17:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
::::By the way, question=kysymys, not kuusamus :-) ›[[User:mysid|mysid]] ([[User talk:Mysid|☎]][[Special:Contributions/Mysid|∆]]) 21:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
:::...Jesus, are there any second-language Finnish speakers in the world?? ;) -[[User:Elmer Clark|Elmer Clark]] ([[User talk:Elmer Clark|talk]]) 19:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

"Jaettu maa" means "the divided land". End of story. There are second-language Finnish speakers, but all of them live in Finland. No one has ever learned Finnish as a foreign language for any other reason than needing to understand what the people in their new homeland talk about. From my experience, adult immigrants quickly grasp enough of the language to make themselves understood, but make very minor grammatical mistakes in every sentence. They also have a very distinct non-Finnish accent. Their children speak perfect Finnish. Some Finnish people immediately switch to English when realising they are speaking with an immigrant, but I make it a point never to do that unless the addressee clearly has difficulties understanding me. It is insulting to the immigrants to do it otherwise. I personally find it annoying when Swedes or Germans switch to English when I'm trying to talk to them in their native language. [[User:JIP|<font color="#CC0000">J</font><font color="#00CC00">I</font><font color="#0000CC">P</font>]] | [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 20:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

:"No one has ever learned Finnish as a foreign language for any other reason than needing to understand what the people in their new homeland talk about"... that's a little over-stated, JIP. [[J. R. R. Tolkien]] said he taught himself Finnish so that he could read [[Elias Lönnrot]]'s ''[[Kalevala]]'' in the original. (He later partly based his Elvish language [[Quenya]] on it, so I guess there may well be Tolkien fans who have studied Finnish for that reason.) [[User:Xn4|<span style="color:#9911DD">Xn4</span>]] 03:12, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

::Count me as one second-language Finnish speaker who does not live in Finland. Okay, well I lived in Finland for a couple of years back in the late 1970s, but other than that I've lived in the Unites States. I currently live in Michigan's Upper Peninsula among many [[Finnish Americans|Finnish Americans]] (although I myself am not of Finnish ancestry), and Finnish is taught in some of the schools here as a second language, including [[Finlandia University]] in [[Hancock, Michigan]], which is the town where I live. It is true that I make many mistakes when speaking Finnish (such as the very bad mistake of writing Kuusamus instead of  Kysymys), and I undoubtedly have a wretched accent when I speak Finnish, but I find that if I get talking in it for a while I am able to remember things better and so it goes. One of the benefits of living where I do is that I occasionally get to practice my Finnish on some of the old-timer Finns who still speak it as their mother tongue. There's also a weekly (Sunday morning) local television show that has been on the air since March 27, 1962, and is done partly in Finnish called "Suomi Kutsuu", or "Finland Calling". It is hosted by Carl Pellonpaa, and originates from the station of [[WLUC-TV]] in the town of [[Negaunee, Michigan]]. Pellonpaa invites guests to his show, often visitors to the area from Finland, and speaks to them in Finnish. He also plays old timey Finnish polkas while showing home videos from his many visits to Finland. So I hope that this has settled the question of there not being anyone outside of Finland who is second language speakers of Finnish. It says in your Wiki profile, JIP, that you are an expert in Finnish Culture, so maybe as part of that it would be good to learn about the Finnish culture in America... Just a friendly suggestion.  [[User:Saukkomies|Saukkomies]] 01:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

= December 13 =

== Poetry Punctuation ==

Poet Robert Creeley often uses periods in between stanzas that are centered in the space between the stanzas. What are they called? What is the correct term for such line breaks? Regard, Mark Lee--[[Special:Contributions/74.138.145.133|74.138.145.133]] ([[User talk:74.138.145.133|talk]]) 03:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

:A kind of [[interpunct]], perhaps? [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] ([[User talk:Adam Bishop|talk]]) 08:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

:I'd call the symbols themselves ''[[bullet (typography)|bullet]]s'' rather than ''periods''. I think this corresponds to what Noah Lukeman calls a ''section break'', "the most subjective of punctuation marks" (''A Dash of Style: The Art and Mastery of Punctuation'' ISBN 9780393060874). There is a wide range of variation in the symbols or glyphs used to indicate such a breaks. A common form consists of three asterisks, sometimes called ''[[asterism (typography)|asterism]]'', also when more or less collinear and with white space in-between rather than in a tight triangular arrangement, but I've also seen [[fleuron]]s like {{unicode|❧}} and other [[dingbat]]s used for the purpose. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam|Lambiam]] 09:20, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

== Looking for a word meaning "devoid of authority." ==

I am looking for a word meaning "devoid of authority."

Rlemay  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Rlemay|Rlemay]] ([[User talk:Rlemay|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rlemay|contribs]]) 08:56, 13 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Powerless? --[[User:Richardrj|Richardrj]] [[User talk:Richardrj|<sup>talk </sup>]][[Special:Emailuser/Richardrj|<sup>email</sup>]] 09:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
::[[wikt:chaotic|chaotic]], [[wikt:anarchic|anarchic]]. Maybe [[wikt:lawless|lawless]], [[wikt:unruly|unruly]]? [[User:The Evil Spartan|The Evil Spartan]] ([[User talk:The Evil Spartan|talk]]) 09:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

:Can you give an example sentence in which you'd like to use that word? If you mean an adjective to qualify a person who carries no authority, perhaps ''amateur'', ''nonprofessional'', ''dilettante'', ''novice'', ''insignificant'', ''low-ranking'', ''undistinguished''. For nouns, you could say that someone is a ''nobody'', a ''nonentity'', a ''little guy''. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam|Lambiam]] 09:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

:::*Also ''powerless'' or ''toothless''. In a specific context in US politics, a ''[[lame duck (politics)|lame duck]]''. --Anonymous, 19:47 UTC, December 13.

::It could also possibly mean ''invalid'' (a decree devoid of authority, for example).  [[User:Wareh|Wareh]] ([[User talk:Wareh|talk]]) 17:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

:::In that context, the decree is ''void'' or it is ''a nullity''. --Anon,  19:47 UTC, December 13.
::::Uncharismatic [[User:Steewi|Steewi]] ([[User talk:Steewi|talk]]) 23:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
:Hollow? Toothless? Extralegal? Unauthorized? Non-authoritative? [[User:Clarityfiend|Clarityfiend]] ([[User talk:Clarityfiend|talk]]) 19:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

== Vocab Qeustion ==

I have a sentance in a reccomendation and a word seems to be misused. The sentence is below... any advice will help.

Her sense of self is one of her most endearing traits.

Shouldn't endearing be enduring?
Thanks
--[[User:Devol4|Devol4]] ([[User talk:Devol4|talk]]) 13:54, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

:Depends on whether you want to say that it's lasted a long time, or that it makes other people like her... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 14:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

:I think it would probably make sense as endearing than as enduring  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.202.92.247|69.202.92.247]] ([[User talk:69.202.92.247|talk]]) 20:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


:It's a good and somehow sentimental sentence.There is nothing wrong with   'endearing',however   ,this depends on what feelings the person wants to convey.In that case any one of the lexis from this sentence can be put on objection.--[[User:Mike robert|Mike robert]] ([[User talk:Mike robert|talk]]) 22:22, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

::Um, what does "any one of the lexis from this sentence can be put on objection" mean? --Anon, 22:59 UTC, December 13.

:::He means that if you don't assume that the sentence is supposed to mean what it seems to mean - that a female person possessed a sense of self which was among those of her traits that caused people to like her most - then there's no way to know whether any of the words are right, since the intended meaning of the sentence would then be unknown.  (However, ''lexemes'', or even better ''words'', not ''lexis'', should have been used.) -[[User:Elmer Clark|Elmer Clark]] ([[User talk:Elmer Clark|talk]]) 03:19, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

::::Sometimes people write something in a recommendation that acts as a prompt to get the receiver to call them up to ask what it means. This may be when there is something they feel they can't put on paper. [[User:SaundersW|SaundersW]] ([[User talk:SaundersW|talk]]) 17:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

== Using multiple titles for names ==

I recently was charged with creating a flyer for MLK day at my office.  I have seen many different sources refer to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. as "Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."  I was wondering if there is a general rule for limiting the number of titles used.  Generally, the title of Mr. is dropped in lieu of Dr. if the person has attained that level of education, but titles from military service (Sgt., Lt., Col., etc.) and the Church as well seem to be a bit more confusing.  I don't think that addressing someone as Rev. Col. Dr. Smith is correct, but I haven't been able to find a documented grammar rule.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Cholycross|Cholycross]] ([[User talk:Cholycross|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Cholycross|contribs]]) 21:15, 13 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:"Rev. Dr" is not so uncommon, nor is "Professor Sir ...". "Professor Dr ..." is not used. Professor Lord Robert Winston is probably one of a kind. [http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/news/dp/2007101902] Steve Redgrave's wife seems to be Dr Lady Ann Redgrave (which seems odd to me, as unless she has her own lady title she is Lady Redgrave, not Lady Ann Redgrave). There are a few "Dr Sirs" around, too.
::There was [[David Cecil|Professor Lord David Cecil]]. As a humble baron (not the son of a duke or a marquess), Robert Winston is Professor Lord Winston, not Professor Lord Robert Winston. [[User:Xn4|<span style="color:#9911DD">Xn4</span>]] 03:58, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
:::True. The examples of "Dr Lady Ann Redgrave", and "Princess Diana" as well seem to show we are becoming less strict in the application of these rules. [[User:SaundersW|SaundersW]] ([[User talk:SaundersW|talk]]) 15:20, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
:Military ranks can be used with "sir" such as "Col Sir Donald Cameron of Lochiel" [http://news.independent.co.uk/people/obituaries/article38659.ece], and also Lord, eg Maj Gen Lord Michael Fitzalan Howard [http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/obituaries/Maj-Gen-Lord-Michael-Fitzalan.3463915.jp].
:Here is Lt. Col. Dr. Robert Bowman [http://prisonplanet.tv/audio/030406bowman.htm] though many military folk with a doctorate seem to put that in brackets. I suspect that is why you don't see the Rev. Col Dr: if (Dr) is put into parentheses with a military title, it would then disappear altogether with a Rev. as well. [[User:SaundersW|SaundersW]] ([[User talk:SaundersW|talk]]) 21:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

::We had the case of [[Florence Bjelke-Petersen]], whose [[Johannes Bjelke-Petersen|husband]] was knighted; and thus she was ''Lady B-P''.  Then she was elected to the Senate and became either ''Senator Florence B-P'' or ''Senator Lady B-P''.  Folks tried to accord her her full title ''Senator Lady Florence B-P'', but that didn't work because "Lady Florence" implies she was the daughter of a peer, or something like that.  You couldn't imagine the amount of bureaucratic wrangling that went on in Canberra about her proper form of address.  --  [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 22:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

:::In Germany you just string everything along: "Herr Professor Dr. Dr.-Ing. h.c.".[http://www.zittau.de/pressemitteilungen/2004/pressemitteilung06_76.html] Something like what Anglo-Saxons do at the end: "Chilton, Charles, M.A., D.Sc., LL.D., F.L.S., C.M.Z.S., F.R.S.N.Z."[http://rsnz.natlib.govt.nz/volume/rsnz_71/rsnz_71_04_004310.html] &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam|Lambiam]] 23:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
::::Similar in Polish. Here's a real life example: [[:pl:Tadeusz Płoski|Tadeusz Płoski]] is a military chaplain, a bishop holding a general's rank. He also holds a PhD in theology. He is therefore officially referred to in Polish as: ''Jego Ekscelencja ks. bp gen. bryg. dr Tadeusz Płoski'' (His Excellency Rev. Bishop Brigadier General Dr ...). &mdash; [[User:Kpalion|Kpalion]]<sup>[[User talk:Kpalion|(talk)]]</sup> 10:17, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

: On the original question: older authorities say ''Reverend'' is an adjective, not a title, and does not take the place of a prefix; ''Reverend Blank'' is less correct than ''the reverend Mr Blank''.  &mdash;[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 21:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

= December 14 =

==Help creating page in Hebrew==

Perhaps someone can please create a Hebrew page for Rabbi [[Moshe Shmuel Glasner]], משה שמואל גלאזנר and also replacing the aleph in גלאזנר with an ayin משה שמואל גלעזנר and deleting the aleph altogether משה שמואל גלזנר (these are three different spellings I've seen; any of the two can redirect to the third; the most recent publication of his book Dor Revi'i has the ayin in his name, so perhaps that is the best one to be the "homepage"). 

This page could just have a WikiProject Echo tag <nowiki>{{FAOL|English|en:Moshe Shmuel Glasner}}</nowiki>, and hopefully someone will come along and translate this page into Hebrew. At that point, someone can make sure the two pages are suitably cross-referenced to each other.

My Hebrew skills are still very rudimentary; therefore, when the "cannot find this page" page comes up in Hebrew, I don't know which link is the link to actually create a new page.

Thank you!
[[User:Sevendust62|Sevendust62]] ([[User talk:Sevendust62|talk]]) 04:27, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
:I don't know what the rules are like at Hebrew Wikipedia, but if I found an article here that consisted of nothing at all but a link to another language's <s>featured</s> article, I'd delete it. —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] <sup>[[User:Angr/If|If you've written a quality article...]]</sup> 11:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
:[[Moshe Shmuel Glasner]] isn't even featured here, so the WikiProject Echo tag would be incorrect. (And it wouldn't work anyway, since there is no template at [[:he:Template:FAOL]]. —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] <sup>[[User:Angr/If|If you've written a quality article...]]</sup> 11:32, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Using ''`Ayin'' <big>ע</big> as a [[Mater lectionis]] is a feature of Yiddish, orthography, but not Hebrew orthography, and is considered a "Yiddishism" in Hebrew... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 14:37, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
:And in Yiddish it represents the vowel /e/. The Yiddish spelling of "Glasner" should be {{lang|yi|גל&#64302;זנער}}. I'd expect Hebrew to leave both vowels out (since neither /a/ nor unstressed /e/ is usually written with a mater between two consonants) and just be {{lang|he|גלזנר}}. —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] <sup>[[User:Angr/If|If you've written a quality article...]]</sup> 16:51, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

== ''Italics'' ==

In languages that don't read left to right, how are italics slanted? [[User:Clarityfiend|Clarityfiend]] ([[User talk:Clarityfiend|talk]]) 09:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

:Well, copying some Hebrew from the question above and putting italics tags around it produces this:
:<blockquote>''משה שמואל גלאזנר''</blockquote>
:So assuming the Wiki software is handling it correctly, the same direction as left-to-right scripts. -[[User:Elmer Clark|Elmer Clark]] ([[User talk:Elmer Clark|talk]]) 09:29, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

::The italic Arabic font on [http://www.fontshop.com/fonts/singles/paratype/basra_italic_arabic/ this page] slants to the LEFT. But I wonder when italic Arabic is used.--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] ([[User talk:K.C. Tang|talk]]) 10:17, 14 December 2007 (UTC)   

::What about Chinese? [[User:Clarityfiend|Clarityfiend]] ([[User talk:Clarityfiend|talk]]) 10:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

:::''中文''--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] ([[User talk:K.C. Tang|talk]]) 10:17, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

::::''日本語'' Japanese. [[User:Oda Mari|Oda Mari]] <small>([[User talk:Oda Mari|talk]])</small> 10:21, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Um... none of these writing systems normally uses italics. Strictly speaking, what's shown above is automatically computer-generated oblique forms, not true italics (which involve more than just being slanty, they also involve slightly different letter shapes). As far as I know (and I asked about this once a while back at the reference desk), the only alphabets that use true italics are Latin and Cyrillic. —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] <sup>[[User:Angr/If|If you've written a quality article...]]</sup> 10:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
:Considering italic script is generally based on cursive writing, it should be possible to create fonts that would imitate cursive Hebrew, for example. I don't know if this is actually practiced, though. &mdash; [[User:Kpalion|Kpalion]]<sup>[[User talk:Kpalion|(talk)]]</sup> 10:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

When you italicize Arabic on Wikipedia it looks really strange. Imagine slanting English letters the opposite way. Arabic already has it's own styles of writing that look much better, [[Arabic calligraphy]]. [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] ([[User talk:Adam Bishop|talk]]) 16:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

== Eclampsia ==

Somebody told me that this word is derived from the Latin for "lightning bolt." Is that true? [[User:Fenton Bailey|Fenton Bailey]] ([[User talk:Fenton Bailey|talk]]) 11:31, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
:Nearly: it in fact comes from the Greek for "sudden flash[ing]", "lightning" or "lightning bolt".  Last paragraph [http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/405755_4 here] makes reference, as does the first sentence [http://www.pregnancyquestionsandanswers.com/questions/qu_386-what-is-eclampsia.html here].  [[User:Hassocks5489|Hassocks5489]] ([[User talk:Hassocks5489|talk]]) 12:29, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

== Epi-something ==

I can't remember the word for the part of a name such as Richard <b>the Lion-hearted</b>. I think it begins with the prefix "epi." Epigraph... no. Epitaph... no. Epi-  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.16.89.80|69.16.89.80]] ([[User talk:69.16.89.80|talk]]) 13:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:That's an [[epithet]].  [[User:Hassocks5489|Hassocks5489]] ([[User talk:Hassocks5489|talk]]) 13:49, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

:[[Mrs. Malaprop]] was known for her "nice derangement of epitaphs"! [[Image:SFriendly.gif|24px]] [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 14:32, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
::Oh God, I really am the original Mrs. Malaprop! Oh well... Thanks a lot for the help!  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.16.89.80|69.16.89.80]] ([[User talk:69.16.89.80|talk]]) 16:54, 14 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Ich fing Feuer ==

I've come across this, and the context doesn't really call for its literal meaning - "I caught on fire". Is there any idiomatic meaning to this? --[[User:Bearbear|Bearbear]] ([[User talk:Bearbear|talk]]) 16:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
:I can think of some metaphorical meanings it could have. What's the context? —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] <sup>[[User:Angr/If|If you've written a quality article...]]</sup> 16:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
::It's in a song lyric - "Doch als du noch einmal fragtest, kam ich aus der Fassung. Über uns hing, als ich Feuer fing, ein rosaroter Lampion." --[[User:Bearbear|Bearbear]] ([[User talk:Bearbear|talk]]) 17:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

:''Feuer fangen'' means "to catch fire", "to ignite". It strengthens, in a poetic way, the speaker's loosing their equanimity. I don't know the context, but I suppose that as a metaphor this is similar to "[[Light My Fire|Come on baby light my fire]]".  --[[User talk:Lambiam|talk]] 18:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
::That doesn't seem to fit. The entire song can be found [http://www.frmusique.ru/texts/g/gall_france/daswareineschoneparty.htm here] --[[User:Bearbear|Bearbear]] ([[User talk:Bearbear|talk]]) 20:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
:::I think it just means she felt like she caught fire when he kissed her. I like the idea of rhyming ''Fassung'' with ''bon / non / Lampion''. —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] <sup>[[User:Angr/If|If you've written a quality article...]]</sup> 20:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
::::Another ''Fassung'' found on the web has "''Façon''" (whatever that may mean here).[http://www.geocities.com/ha_hammer/daswaresp.htm] What I like is that it rhymes with ''une poupée de son'' :) &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam|Lambiam]] 03:07, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
:::How can you say it doesn't fit. First she sings how cool it is to dance under a red Chinese lantern, because "red is the colour by which you should fall in love". Who cares, she sings, that "you" [her dance partner] were not good at dancing; it was good, we had the red lantern hanging over us. Then he wants to kiss her, and first she says (you know how women are) "Non, non, non", but then, when he asks again, she "catches fire": he has lit her fire. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam|Lambiam]] 03:07, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
::::The "aus der Fassung" thing caught me out. I've seen it as "Façon" too but I don't see what that could mean in this case. --[[User:Bearbear|Bearbear]] ([[User talk:Bearbear|talk]]) 10:17, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

= December 15 =
== œ ==
How is this pronounced in English? The article on it only has IPA, which I can't read. Other sources say it's pronounced how you sound when your lips are making an ū, but you say ĕ. This makes no sense to me. Does someone know an English word to two where this is used, so I can compare?

Also, is there a word for a private meeting with only members of something, like a panel of judges? Not in camera though. I'm trying to remember it, but I can't. '''[[User:Soleil|I]] [[User talk:Soleil|(talk)]]''' 02:45, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

:: According to [[Œ|its article]], it is pronounced /iː/ or /ɛ/ in most cases. As for your second question, I would suggest "conclave", which specifically refers to a private or closed assembly, and comes from the Latin conclāve, ''place that may be locked up''. However, more informal terms could be "huddle" or "confab", and one can communicate the concept by saying, for instance, "The judges will now confer," which is understood to refer to a private discussion. [[user:Lantzy|Lantzy]][[user talk:Lantzy|<sup> talk</sup>]] 03:51, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
:(ec)If you mean the first IPA on the page, that's just the name of the symbol œ, which is pronounced as I would pronounce the name 'Ethel'. If you mean how is it pronounced in words, that depends on the language, and the word. In English it barely exists nowadays, having been replaced by oe or just e. However it's written, it's normally pronounced ''ee'', as in b''ee''n. The pronunciation you describe appears to refer to the [[open-mid front rounded vowel]], which is written in IPA as œ. This sound does not occur in English, which is why English speakers have to go through such contortions to try to say it. Btw, IPA is very useful (especially for reading Wikipedia!) and not that hard to deal with; see [[IPA chart for English]] for a cut-down version with most of what you need to know. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 03:59, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

::There are two pronunciations of "been". Make that "ee" as in s''ee''n. --Anon, 06:38 UTC, December 15.