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= October 24 =
== Russian spam ==

Lately my spam-filters see this a hundred times a day: ''Только наши телочки так сладко стонут...'' (usually with at least one misspelling).  This seems to mean ''Only our телочки moan so sweetly''; what's that one word? —[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 14:48, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
:Calves. [[User:David Šenek|D<small>AVID</small> Š<small>ENEK</small>]] 16:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
::[[Calf|Calves]] or [[calf muscle|calves]]? —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] 18:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
:::[[Calf|Calves]].  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/194.171.56.13|194.171.56.13]] ([[User talk:194.171.56.13|talk]]) 10:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:: So it's a bestiality spam? —[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 02:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
::: If you do a Google Images search (with Safe Search turned off) for the word телочки you will get lots of non-safe-for-work images, none of them relating to bestiality. I think the word must have some other meaning as well. —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] 06:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

:::My Oxford Russian-English dictionary doesn't have any such word as телочeк/телочкa/телочки.  It does have the colloquial word for calf, телок, and the more standard word телёнок.  Телочки would be a perfectly normal way of deriving a diminutive (pl.) of телок; and Russians are fond of using diminutives for things that are already relatively small, thus making them sound even smaller - e.g. маленький мальчик is the usual way of referring to a boy of any age, but considered word-for-word it means "little boy".  So, телочки could mean a young calf, even a baby calf, or it could just mean a calf of indeterminate age.  Looking up "calf" in my English-Russian dictionary, I get only телёнок.  But looking down the page, my eye espied "calflove", a word I'd never heard of before.  It translated it as ребяческая любовь, or юношеское увлечение.  The first means "childish or infantile love", the second "youthful passion".  The sense I get is that they're talking about a young person exhibiting feelings for another person.  So far, so good.  Turning now to my trusty English-English dictionary, I find that calf love is a "temporary infatuation of a young boy or girl for a person of the opposite sex".  In the context of the question, I guess телочки could be some sort of code for the subjects of pedophiliac attention, but on the face of it, it seems to be related to the ''reverse'' of pedophilia, i.e. a young person having a crush on an older person, quite a natural and common phenomenon. These days, though, you never know what words mean to initiates.   --  [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 07:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
: Тёлочка is the hypocoristic form of тёлка, that is, "little cow". Тёлочки may be loosely translated as ''chicks''. Only our chicks moan so sweetly. I like that :) --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 08:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

== Map of world languages ==
Does anyone here know of a map of the world with the countries colour-coded along the lines of [[:Image:English-as-Official-Language.png]] but for multiple languages? I don't think I've seen one before but I'd like to. — [[User:Maestrosync|maestrosync]] <sup>[[User_talk:Maestrosync|''talk'']]</sup> — 16:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

:There's [[:Image:Human_Language_Families_(wikicolors).png]] (and several variants of it, I believe). -- [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 22:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

== Template for  ''this Article needs to be copyedited by a native English speaker" ? ==

There is a Wiki template (or something similar) to say: ''this Article needs to be copyedited by a native English speaker'' ? I'm not English mother tongue and I would like to flag temporally an Article in order to have some other editor to check its readability (for example [[Lives of the Prophets]] I've developed from a stub). Thanks. [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 17:15, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

:Perhaps one of those at [[Wikipedia:Template_messages/Cleanup#Translation]], most likely [[Template:RoughTranslation]] or [[Template:Cleanup-translation]]. You can also drop a message to an available proofreader who is proficient in your mother language ([[:Category:Available proofreaders in Wikipedia]]) or leave a proofreading request on [[Wikipedia:Translation]]. [[User:Nanonic|Nanonic]] ([[User talk:Nanonic|talk]]) 17:32, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

== Quick question [agreement of verb with compound subject] ==

Is it "Jack (and his ever present sidekick John) is acting silly" or "Jack (and his ever present sidekick John) are acting silly"?

I thought that I could write "Jack (and his ever present sidekick John) is ..." because Jack was the subject. Apparently, I'm wrong, even if I put brackets around "and his ever present sidekick John". I was thinking that because I intend John only to be incidental that I could take Jack as the subject instead of "Jack and John". [[Special:Contributions/203.217.43.170|203.217.43.170]] ([[User talk:203.217.43.170|talk]]) 18:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
:I'd recommend changing ''and'' to ''along with''. Then nobody—one would think—could deny that the parenthetical material does not affect the number of the subject, and you could use ''is'' with impunity. I'd also hyphenate ''ever-present''. [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 18:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

:If John is ever-present, then he's not incidental, is he?  What about "Jack and John (his ever present sidekick) are acting silly" ? --[[User:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F">LarryMac</font>]][[User talk:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F"><small> | Talk</small></font>]] 19:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

::A "parenthetic" subject is traditionally excluded from deciding the number of the subject for the purposes of agreement with the verb.  What constitutes a "parenthetic" subject is fuzzy (e.g. phrases like "as well as", marking off with commas) but if it's in [[parentheses]] then it's definitely parenthetic. [[User:Jnestorius|jnestorius]]<sup>([[User talk:Jnestorius|talk]])</sup> 21:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

:::[Ah, yes. Edit conflict with Jnestorius. I'll post it exactly as I had it anyway:]
:::I agree with Deor: change ''and'' to ''along with''. That's one perfectly sound way of keeping a singular form of the verb. But the brackets complicate things, since in cases like this what's inside them ought not to affect the syntax of what's outside. Acceptable solutions therefore include these:
:::*Jack, and his ever-present sidekick John, are acting silly.
:::*Jack, along with his ever-present sidekick John, is acting silly.
:::*Jack (along with his ever-present sidekick John) is acting silly.
:::I have added a hyphen, and managed commas carefully. In each case another comma is possible before ''John'', but it would clutter things needlessly.
:::–<font color="blue"><sub><big><big>'''[[User_talk:Noetica |⊥]]'''</big></big></sub><sup>¡ɐɔıʇǝo</sup>N<small>oetica!</small></font><sup>[[User_talk:Noetica |T]]</sup>– 21:49, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Without wishing to gainsay the ever-correct Noetica, are the commas necessary - or even desirable - in ''"Jack, and his ever-present sidekick John, are acting silly"''?  The form is ''"A, and B, are doing X"'', which seems fairly non-acceptable to me.  --  [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 22:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::With all due deference to my esteemed antipodean colleague JackofOz, I point out that I wrote "acceptable solutions therefore include these". I do not claim that those commas are necessary or even desirable, in most situations in which the sentence would be deployed. But the question was put in terms of some such parenthetic structure, and there are indeed contexts in which this very interpolation would be parenthetical. Consider:
:::::*"How is Jack behaving today?" "Jack, and his ever-present sidekick John, are acting silly."
:::::See? The main point is to respond to a question about Jack; and the information about John, being a gratuitous amplification, is parenthetical.
:::::–<font color="blue"><sub><big><big>'''[[User_talk:Noetica |⊥]]'''</big></big></sub><sup>¡ɐɔıʇǝo</sup>N<small>oetica!</small></font><sup>[[User_talk:Noetica |T]]</sup>– 22:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Hmmm.  I'm not convinced.  If "and his ever-present sidekick John" is truly parenthetical, it would have to be "Jack, and his ever-present sidekick John, '''is''' acting silly", wouldn't it?  Seems to me the choices are: commas and "is", or no commas and "are".  --  [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 22:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::The point is that sometimes there is a rhetorical reason for setting off part of a compound subject with commas, but doing so doesn't necessitate the use of a singular verb. As a style guide I happen to have handy (''Words into Type'') says, "The copy editor should not be misled by punctuation that makes a plural subject appear to be a singular subject followed by a parenthetical phrase"—an example given being "The great diversity of the risks covered, and the complex nature of the business, '''introduce''' production problems of an unusual character" (emphasis mine). [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 00:10, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::JackofOz, we might distinguish ''semantic'' and ''syntactic'' parenthesis.
::::::::Brackets (or "parentheses", in the Vespuccian ''patois'') isolate the syntax of the included material much more trenchantly than other devices. A pair of commas has little isolating effect; a pair of sentence-level dashes (em dshes, or my preferred spaced en dashes) has an isolating effect intermediate between commas and brackets.
::::::::Semantic parenthesis is a more fluid affair than syntactic parenthesis. In suggesting that ''and his ever-present sidekick John'' may in some situations be parenthetical, I mean ''semantically'' parenthetical.
::::::::Then there is [http://www.let.ru.nl/gep/jp/SpeechProsody2006/PS4-21_0245.pdf prosodic parenthesis]. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.
::::::::–<font color="blue"><sub><big><big>'''[[User_talk:Noetica |⊥]]'''</big></big></sub><sup>¡ɐɔıʇǝo</sup>N<small>oetica!</small></font><sup>[[User_talk:Noetica |T]]</sup>– 02:57, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::I'm ill-equipped to engage in discourse of such abstruseness, being a mere dilettante who thinks he generally knows good grammar and bad grammar when he sees them.  So I won't argue any more.  But I know what I'd be writing if I were writing the sentence in question, and anyone who dared question me would have a fight on their hands. :)  --  [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 07:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::::::Ah, Jack and his sometimes-present sidekick Noetica do not agree on the matter!  But does Jack know much about punctuation?  I think that Jack, and his friend Noetica, are quite knowledgeable, really.  I would even say that Jack – and of course, Noetica – is generally pretty good on these matters.  One might always assume that Jack (with the Great Noetica) is always worth listening to.  [[User:Gwinva|Gwinva]] ([[User talk:Gwinva|talk]]) 08:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::[Gwinva! I said I would ''contact'' you, not edit ''conflict'' with you! Anyway, clever self-referential use of parentheses. Or should that be self-parenthetical use of references? I can't be sure any more. Still, let us bluff ever onward:]
::::::::::And modest, too, JoO. I like that! :)
::::::::::Actually the terminology is up for grabs. It pays to bluff, and to assume an air of authority whether it be warranted or no. (I did&nbsp;– a bit, at least.)
::::::::::–<font color="blue"><sub><big><big>'''[[User_talk:Noetica |⊥]]'''</big></big></sub><sup>¡ɐɔıʇǝo</sup>N<small>oetica!</small></font><sup>[[User_talk:Noetica |T]]</sup>– 08:34, 25 October 2008 (UTC)


Everyone who has posted any response other than a decisive MAKE AGREEMENT AS THOUGH THERE ARE NO PARANTHESES (AS THOUGH YOU'RE READING OUT LOUD) is WRONG.  There is one and only one way to continue a sentence after you've included some parentheses: as though the things in parentheses weren't in parentheses.

It is:
* "Jack (and his ever present sidekick John) are acting silly"
* "In all our storied past (and currently, and in all our foreseeable future) we shall remain..."
* "Neither you nor Jacky (nor I) am a good person to discuss this with"

It's that simple.  It's a matter of the "correct" or "incorrent" answer to this question. NO EXCEPTIONS.  The people above who gave a different alternative are just wrong.  Period.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/94.27.170.127|94.27.170.127]] ([[User talk:94.27.170.127|talk]]) 23:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Life is certainly simple for the dogmatic. [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 23:29, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
:(ec) And your authority for this rather dubious and over-assertive assertion is ...?  --  [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 23:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

== Japanese Question ==

How can 「（日付）を以って（動詞）」 be translated? Same as 「（日付）に（動詞）」？--[[User:Givnan|ChokinBako]] ([[User talk:Givnan|talk]]) 18:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

:(日付）を以って can be translated as 'as of 日付'. [[User:Oda Mari|Oda Mari]] <small>([[User talk:Oda Mari|talk]])</small> 18:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

:I'm amazed you didn't check [[Eijirō]], the one dictionary I would take to a desert island if I was planning to do Japanese-English translation work there. It suggests "as of" or "effective". -- [[User:BenRG|BenRG]] ([[User talk:BenRG|talk]]) 18:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

::I use Eijiro all the time, lar, on www.alc.co.jp, but it only gave two examples of the use of '以って', and both translations did not seem applicable to the context of the text I am working on. Oda Mari's translation was perfect.--[[User:Givnan|ChokinBako]] ([[User talk:Givnan|talk]]) 23:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

==Accents of Hitchcock and Karloff==
[[Boris Karloff]] and [[Alfred Hitchcock]] were born in [[London]] a few years apart, but had quite distinctively different accents, but both sound British to American ears. Was this difference of dialect or accent due to the different neighborhoods they were from, or to different social class of their parents? Is there a name for the typical [[British English]] of each of these celebrities? Karloff sounded (except when he was doing a dialect role) a bit upscale from Hitchcock.Here is a 1964 interview with Hitchcock: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydvU64L758c&feature=related] , and here he is introducing a TV episode [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09Zsd858KQs]. Here is Karloff, at 1:30 introducing a TV show:[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNTs5M2uUOY&feature=related] , and at 2:30 [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJnhoQkXLA8&feature=related] introducing another episode. [[User:Edison|Edison]] ([[User talk:Edison|talk]]) 21:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
:"British English" as a term refers to the way in which the form of English used in Britain differs in spelling, vocabulary, grammar and punctuation from that used elsewhere. It shouldn't really be used to describe accents. People in Britain don't have "British accents"; they have English, Scottish, Welsh accents etc as applicable. What Americans tend to think of when they talk about a "Bridish accent" is almost invariably an ''English'' accent, either [[Received Pronunciation|RP]] or some [[Dick Van Dyke|godawful]] [[Minor_characters_on_Frasier#Simon_Moon|version]] [[James Marsters|of]] [[cockney]].
:I'd agree that Hitchcock has a slightly lower-middle-class drawl compared to Karloff, but bear in mind that actors often undergo vocal training to speak with a kind of [[RADA]] accent, whereas directors do not. [[User:Malcolm XIV|Malcolm XIV]] ([[User talk:Malcolm XIV|talk]]) 16:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

== Kamikaze ==

Why do people insist on translating 'Kamikaze' as 'God of the Wind', when 'Kaze' is the main part of this word, therefore meaning 'Wind of the Gods'? If it was 'God of the Wind', it would be 'Kazekami'. Historically, 'Wind of the Gods' would make sense, considering it referred originally to the typhoon that repelled the Mongol invasion in the 13th Century. Any thoughts on this?--[[User:Givnan|ChokinBako]] ([[User talk:Givnan|talk]]) 23:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
:I've always seen it translated as "divine wind." Who are these people who translate it as "God of the Wind"? [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 00:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

::I've heard people say it, and seen it on the odd TV documentary - admittedly, old ones.--[[User:Givnan|ChokinBako]] ([[User talk:Givnan|talk]]) 10:11, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

== Japanese Merchant Ships ==

What is the meaning of 'maru', the word that comes after the name of practically every merchant ship in Japan? One of my friends who is a sailor asked me this tonight, and I couldn't answer. 'Circle' did not quite convince him. Any ideas?--[[User:Givnan|ChokinBako]] ([[User talk:Givnan|talk]]) 23:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
:For some theories, see [[Japanese ship naming conventions#Maru]]. [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 00:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

:Difficult question. The oldest citation is from an 1187 text. There are a number of suggested etymologies, but no general consensus:
:#maro (麿, "I") > maru; originally used to refer to oneself, gradually changed to refer to things near oneself as a term of endearment
:#personification (again from maro (麿, "I"))
:#from maro (麿), a suffix to a boys name
:#from the word for stripped wood (maruta 丸太) used in boat construction
:#from toimaru (問丸), medieval tradesmen on boats
:Nothing definite, but FYI. [[User:Bendono|Bendono]] ([[User talk:Bendono|talk]]) 00:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

::Wow! I can't believe it's such a mystery! Thanks!--[[User:Givnan|ChokinBako]] ([[User talk:Givnan|talk]]) 10:13, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

= October 25 =
== Japanese translation ==

I feel I understand what is being said, but I would like a second opinion. In the sentence 『CLANNAD』は自分の中でもシナリオではもう行き着くとこまで行っちゃって二度と越えられない壁になってます。 (which references ''[[Clannad (visual novel)|Clannad]]'') I believe it says, "Clannad has already become, among all my scenarios, an impassable wall that I will never reach again." or so. The speaker is [[Jun Maeda]], the main scenario writer for ''Clannad''.--<span style="background:white;color:">[[User:Juhachi|'''<font color="black">十</font>''']][[User talk:Juhachi|'''<font color="red">八</font>''']]</span> 06:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

:How about this? Inside of me, the scenario of 'Clanned' was developed to the full extent and now I found a brick wall that I could never break through. [[User:Oda Mari|Oda Mari]] <small>([[User talk:Oda Mari|talk]])</small> 06:44, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

::That still conveys the same message, right? In that Maeda is saying he reached the limit of his writing ability with ''Clannad'', and now he believes he'll never write something as ambitious, or more ambitious, than what he did with ''Clannad'', right?--<span style="background:white;color:">[[User:Juhachi|'''<font color="black">十</font>''']][[User talk:Juhachi|'''<font color="red">八</font>''']]</span> 08:59, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

::Yes, he is saying he ''got to a wall that I will never be able to get over '''again'''''. --[[User:Givnan|ChokinBako]] ([[User talk:Givnan|talk]]) 09:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the responses.--<span style="background:white;color:">[[User:Juhachi|'''<font color="black">十</font>''']][[User talk:Juhachi|'''<font color="red">八</font>''']]</span> 20:53, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

== A note on masculine as default grammatical gender ==

I just wrote something about this, but then the section was archived from under me: [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008_October_19#Lanuages_with_masc..2Ffem._2nd_person‎|see my scintillating contribution here]].

–<font color="blue"><sub><big><big>'''[[User_talk:Noetica |⊥]]'''</big></big></sub><sup>¡ɐɔıʇǝo</sup>N<small>oetica!</small></font><sup>[[User_talk:Noetica |T]]</sup>– 08:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

== Punctuation [in Charade, and in Shakespeare?] ==

This line from ''[[Charade]]'' has me in a quandry: "Well, wasn't it Shakespeare that said, 'When strangers do meet in far off lands, they should e'er long see each other again'?"  Assuming that the "Shakespearean" line is complete, should there be a period after "again" or is there some rule against having two punctuation marks one after the other (sort of)? [[User:Clarityfiend|Clarityfiend]] ([[User talk:Clarityfiend|talk]]) 08:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

:Certainly nothing closely resembling that line occurs in Shakespeare. But even if it did, there would be no point in consulting such a source. Shakespearian punctuation is variable and illogical by our standards.
:Anyway, no: there should not be such a period. See [[Wikipedia:MOS#Quotation_marks|WP:MOS]], where this is dealt with quite well.
:–<font color="blue"><sub><big><big>'''[[User_talk:Noetica |⊥]]'''</big></big></sub><sup>¡ɐɔıʇǝo</sup>N<small>oetica!</small></font><sup>[[User_talk:Noetica |T]]</sup>– 08:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
:Not relevant to your question, but that line doesn't even make sense. ''e'er'' should probably be ''ere''. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 10:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
::That line was just part of a joke (hence the quotation marks) to allow Cary Grant and Audrey Hepburn the opportunity to be charming (and they are). [[User:Clarityfiend|Clarityfiend]] ([[User talk:Clarityfiend|talk]]) 21:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

== Kde domov muj? [Czech pronunciation] ==

How is "muj" pronounced? Once again, I am pretty illterate in IPA, so avoid using it. Come to think of it, where is the diacritic that's supposed to be on the u? I could only find the ring for the a, the one that looks Swedish. [[User:Vltava 68|<font color="000080">Vltava 68</font>]] ([[User talk:Vltava 68|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Vltava 68|<font color="green">contribs</font>]]) 09:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

:I think you are referring to František Škroup's song [[Kde domov můj?]] Where is the diacritic? ''There'' is the diacritic! I believe ''můj'' is pronounced /muj/! That is, like Spanish ''muy''. The ''u'' is roughly pronounced like the ''u'' in English ''put'', or in German ''Mutter''.
:–<font color="blue"><sub><big><big>'''[[User_talk:Noetica |⊥]]'''</big></big></sub><sup>¡ɐɔıʇǝo</sup>N<small>oetica!</small></font><sup>[[User_talk:Noetica |T]]</sup>– 09:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

:In fact you can find that ''ů'' in the "Latin" options below the Edit Box:

:Á á Ć ć É é Í í Ĺ ĺ Ń ń Ó ó Ŕ ŕ Ś ś Ú ú Ý ý Ź ź   À à È è Ì ì Ò ò Ù ù   Â â Ĉ ĉ Ê ê Ĝ ĝ Ĥ ĥ Î î Ĵ ĵ Ô ô Ŝ ŝ Û û Ŵ ŵ Ŷ ŷ   Ä ä Ë ë Ï ï Ö ö Ü ü Ÿ ÿ   ß   Ã ã Ẽ ẽ Ĩ ĩ Ñ ñ Õ õ Ũ ũ Ỹ ỹ   Ç ç Ģ ģ Ķ ķ Ļ ļ Ņ ņ Ŗ ŗ Ş ş Ţ ţ   Đ đ   <u><b>Ů ů</b></u>   Ǎ ǎ Č č Ď ď Ě ě Ǐ ǐ Ľ ľ Ň ň Ǒ ǒ Ř ř Š š Ť ť Ǔ ǔ Ž ž   Ā ā Ē ē Ī ī Ō ō Ū ū Ȳ ȳ Ǣ ǣ   ǖ ǘ ǚ ǜ   Ă ă Ĕ ĕ Ğ ğ Ĭ ĭ Ŏ ŏ Ŭ ŭ   Ċ ċ Ė ė Ġ ġ İ ı Ż ż   Ą ą Ę ę Į į Ǫ ǫ Ų ų   Ḍ ḍ Ḥ ḥ Ḷ ḷ Ḹ ḹ Ṃ ṃ Ṇ ṇ Ṛ ṛ Ṝ ṝ Ṣ ṣ Ṭ ṭ   Ł ł   Ő ő Ű ű   Ŀ ŀ   Ħ ħ   Ð ð Þ þ   Œ œ   Æ æ Ø ø Å å   Ə ə     {{Unicode|}} 

:And yes, ''můj'' (alternatively ''múj'') is indeed pronounced like /muy/, but with a longish and more rounded ''u'' than the unadorned letter. (Source: ''Routledge Czech Grammar''.)

:–<font color="blue"><sub><big><big>'''[[User_talk:Noetica |⊥]]'''</big></big></sub><sup>¡ɐɔıʇǝo</sup>N<small>oetica!</small></font><sup>[[User_talk:Noetica |T]]</sup>– 09:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

::It is pronounced {{IPAlink|muːj}}. There is nothing more rounded about it than &lt;u>, and there's no such alternative spelling as "múj". —&nbsp;[[User:EmilJ|Emil]]&nbsp;[[User talk:EmilJ|J.]] 10:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

== Does a word/phrase exist for this type of "getting caught"? ==

Is there a specific word or common phrase in any language for this kind of situation?

Example 1) You are a law-abiding driver and always have been.  In your small town you have never seen a police car, ever, in your many years of living there.  That one time you ever consider rolling through a stop sign and do it, you see the lights and sirens in your rear view window.

Example 2) You're at your office cubicle and have an itch in your nose.  You think to yourself, "someone will see me if I scratch it and they'll think I'm picking my nose".  You wait and wait for the itch to hopefully go away on its own.  Ten minutes later, nobody has walked by your cubicle and your nose feels like it is crawling with fire ants, so you go for the gold.  Within the exact same second or two that you put your finger in your nose, your boss comes around the corner out of nowhere to talk to you.

Example 3) You're playing a first-person shooter, with a sniper rifle to keep an area clear for your teammates.  You keep a reputably-troublesome hallway scoped for a few minutes when you don't see any action at all there the entire time.  You figure the frontline action moved forward in the game, and staring at a wall is boring, so you proceed toward that hallway to reach wherever you think your teammates are... the moment you enter the hallway and almost reach the end, a superiorly-equipped enemy comes around the corner and destroys you without blinking.

With things like the second example, I always used the word "Seinfeldian", but that's an adjective :)

Also I wonder if Statisticians have studied this phenomenon.  It kind of nullifies the idea of patience being a virtue.  --[[Special:Contributions/75.165.11.199|75.165.11.199]] ([[User talk:75.165.11.199|talk]]) 17:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

:I remember it discussed by [[Scott Adams]] years ago, but he didn't have a name for it either.  Seems to be a corollary of [[Murphy's law]].  [[User:Jnestorius|jnestorius]]<sup>([[User talk:Jnestorius|talk]])</sup> 17:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

::See [http://roso.epfl.ch/dm/murphy.html Murphy's laws]. -- [[User:Wavelength|Wavelength]] ([[User talk:Wavelength|talk]]) 22:03, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
[[sod's law]] ?[[User:Hotclaws**==|hotclaws]] 07:02, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

::Interestingly, [[Spear of Destiny]] put out the [[Sod's Law]] album and there seems to be a spear of destiny operating in this kind of [[dumb luck]], often enough to seem precisely planned. [[Karma]]? in the sense that what you avoid most gets you without warning.  [[User:Julia Rossi|Julia Rossi]] ([[User talk:Julia Rossi|talk]]) 01:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

== Pronunciation guide ==

Can you please use a pronunciation guide like "The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language" pronunciation guide, or at least a pronunciation guide that divides a word into syllables. All American children were taught learn the pronunciation of a new word by this means in elementary school. Please do this. The pronunciation guide that you use is difficult and it is not helpful. Thanks  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.118.229.108|71.118.229.108]] ([[User talk:71.118.229.108|talk]]) 18:28, 25 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:The AHD pronunciation guide won't be helpful to non-Americans who didn't learn it at school. IPA has the advantage of being an international standard. Moreover, any English-specific pronunciation guide will be useless at accurately describing the pronunciation of words from other languages which may have sounds that don't exist in English. If [[IPA]] is difficult for you, you may try [[Wikipedia:IPA]] and [[Wikipedia:IPA for English]] to start learning it. &mdash; [[User:Kpalion|Kpalion]]<sup>[[User talk:Kpalion|(talk)]]</sup> 18:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

== Phobia name ==

I realise this is a bit of a silly question, but does anyone know what the Latin name would be for a phobia of dropping one's keys into the gap between a lift car and the floor? Something we'd been arguing about in the pub, but nobody knew the answer. — [[User:Fireinacrowdedtheatre|<font color="FF3333" face="arial"><b>FIRE!</b></font>]][[User talk:Fireinacrowdedtheatre|<font color="000033" face="arial"><small><sup><i>in a crowded theatre...</i></sup></small></font>]] 18:50, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

:Clearly, this is medical advice.  Grab your car keys, hop into the elevator and drive to to your physicia - ooops, drat - walk to your physicians surgery.  
:Unfortunately, it will be locked as the good doctor dropped her keys into the storm water drain when she climbed into her car through the side window.  The reason for her unusual boarding maneuvre can easily be guessed, but the terminology currently escapes me...  --[[User:Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM|Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM]] ([[User talk:Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM|talk]]) 20:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

:I'm not even going to try to pretend to go Greek for this -- using Latin stems, one possibility might be Clavirimophobia (''clavis'', ''rima''). [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 21:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

:See [http://www.phobialist.com/ The Phobia List]. -- [[User:Wavelength|Wavelength]] ([[User talk:Wavelength|talk]]) 22:07, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

:How about ptosikleisophobia? (from ptosis, falling, and kleis, key)  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/194.171.56.13|194.171.56.13]] ([[User talk:194.171.56.13|talk]]) 09:55, 26 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::Kleis is a case form (nominative singular if with an acute accent, nominative/accusative plural if with a cicumflex accent), not the stem used for compounding.  The stem is ''kleid-'' ... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]])

= October 26 =
== Magazine name ==
hi  every one! i'm gonna start a new magazine! suggest me short stylich meaningful names of any language...............  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/59.92.103.140|59.92.103.140]] ([[User talk:59.92.103.140|talk]]) 07:19, 26 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Well, what's the magazine about? You want a name that's actually relevant to the topic, not just some random word, right? (If you do just want some random word, try hitting [[Special:Random]] or [[wikt:Special:Random]] a few times till you find a word you like.) —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] 07:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

:Will the name express something of your magazine's purpose or intent? Though it's a typo, "Stylich" sounds catchy for a mag about style, say.  [[User:Julia Rossi|Julia Rossi]] ([[User talk:Julia Rossi|talk]]) 21:41, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Especially if the intended audience is [[lich]]es.  Or maybe it's ''Style-itch''? —[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 01:57, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

==Truck driver who likes to drive in stocking feet==
I am a truck driver who likes to drive in stocking feet; is this legal to do?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/128.147.28.1|128.147.28.1]] ([[User talk:128.147.28.1|talk]]) 13:18, 26 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Could you tell us what [[jurisdiction]] you are driving in?  <small>and how this is a language question?</small>  <span style="font-family:monospace;">[[User:Dismas|Dismas]]</span>|[[User talk:Dismas|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:48, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
::Weird Al Yankovic has a song like that. [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] ([[User talk:Adam Bishop|talk]]) 15:27, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
:::We can't answer legal questions here anyway. —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] 19:28, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
:Who would ever know? The X-ray-equipped [[fashion police]]? [[User:Clarityfiend|Clarityfiend]] ([[User talk:Clarityfiend|talk]]) 19:42, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
::If he gets stopped by the police for something else, and is in his stocking feet when they ask him to step out of the truck, he could get in additional trouble if it turns out to be illegal. At any rate, I'd consider it a bad idea, even if it's not illegal in your jurisdiction. —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] 20:05, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Me too.  The core question has nothing to do with socks, sockings etc.  It's really about whether the driver is wearing footwear or not (e.g. shoes).  I was taught to always wear shoes when driving ( I sometimes ignore this advice), but it was more a question of safety than being illegal per se.  That's in my jurisdiction; the law may be different where you live.  --  [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 21:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
"a question of safety than being illegal" - why would it be less safe to drive without shoes? I would have thought it would be just as safe unless you're wearing unusually slippery socks. Bare feet can easily grip the pedals, and if you were to wear socks that couldn't grip the pedals and expected to do this often, you could get grips for the pedals. - So I don't really see a safety issue...or am I missing something?

Also if he gets stopped by the police knowing that it is illgal, he could quickly slip on some loose shoes before they even get out of their car or tell him to.[[User:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy]] ([[User talk:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|talk]]) 23:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

: I've driven with and without shoes, but either way feels safer than with slippers, btw. —[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 01:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

:I think it depends on what [http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsites/1231_vivienne_westwood/images/cs_images/cs_photo12.jpg type of shoes you normally wear]. Sometimes, it can be a better idea to take them off and just wear socks. I once knew a Japanese girl who was short even by Japanese standards and she wore platform shoes. She had to take them off to drive.--[[User:Givnan|ChokinBako]] ([[User talk:Givnan|talk]]) 01:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

But there is a difference when it comes to women because they wear platforms (as in your picture) and high-heels. They don't drive in these shoes because it wouldn't be practical so they usually take them off in their car and put on driving shoes, that's why a woman driver at a petrol station wearing high-heels won't just get in her car and drive off(after paying), but will take 5 minutes before she pulls away. [[User:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy]] ([[User talk:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|talk]]) 01:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

== Subject / verb agreement ==

I received an email, and I was typing my reply.  My very first sentence was this:  ''Your email brings two thoughts to mind.''  I continued on, typing the rest of the email.  Then, I went back to the very first sentence and I added in the following parenthetical: ''(and its accompanying questions)''.  Now, my first sentence read: ''Your email (and its accompanying questions) brings two thoughts to mind.''  Mentally, I went back and forth 100 times, wondering if the verb should stay as singular ''brings'' or should be changed to plural ''bring''.  I was taught (I think?) that a parenthetical is absolutely irrelevant to sentence structure.  The sentence should be able to stand alone if the parenthetical were completely removed.  This leads me to believe that the correct verb should remain singular ''brings''.  However, at the same time, introducing the parenthetical seems to make the subject of the verb change from singular to plural.  And hence require plural ''bring''.  No?  So, here are my questions.  '''(Question 1)''' In the new and revised sentence, with the added parenthetical, what exactly is the subject?  Is it merely "your email" or is it "your email (and its accompanying questions)"?  And, thus, what is the subject's appropriate verb?  '''(Question 2)''' Would the answer to Question 1 change in any way if I rewrote the sentence by simply deleting the parentheses symbols and doing nothing else?  In other words, is there any semantic / grammatical / linguistic difference between Sentence A and Sentence B below?  Certainly, their substance and what they are communicating are exactly identical ... or no?

Sentence A: Your email (and its accompanying questions) brings two thoughts to mind.  

Sentence B: Your email and its accompanying questions bring two thoughts to mind.  

I understand that I can change words around, etc., to fix this problem.  My question, though, presumes that I do not want to do so.  Help!  Thanks.   ([[User:Joseph A. Spadaro|Joseph A. Spadaro]] ([[User talk:Joseph A. Spadaro|talk]]) 16:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC))
:I suggest that you start by reading [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Quick_question_.5Bagreement_of_verb_with_compound_subject.5D this thread] above, so that folks don't have to repeat the responses they made there. Afterwards, if you have any remaining questions, let us know what they are. [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 16:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

:: Hi.  Thanks.  I had not seen that above thread from a few days ago.  But, on certain levels, neither did I find it helpful.  Maybe some "language ref type" can help?  Thanks.   ([[User:Joseph A. Spadaro|Joseph A. Spadaro]] ([[User talk:Joseph A. Spadaro|talk]]) 17:19, 26 October 2008 (UTC))
:The only difference I see is that A makes the questions a bit more subordinate. [[User:Clarityfiend|Clarityfiend]] ([[User talk:Clarityfiend|talk]]) 18:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

:In this case, it sounds like it's not even necessary to refer to the accompanying questions.  If you received a letter, you wouldn't respond with "Thank you for your letter and its content".  Whatever your response is, "your letter" refers not to the physical object that arrived in your letter box, but to the content of the communication.  Same principle with an email, where the content can include the main message plus attachments.  In some cases you may, in the body of your reply, need to refer to a specific attachment to identify a particular sentence you're commenting on, but your introductory thank you is all inclusive, whether there are attachments or not.   --  [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 21:30, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, you '''MUST''' formulate your sentence to read correctly when read out loud (i.e. where parenthetical marks are not possible).  So it '''MUST''' be ''Your email (and its accompanying questions) '''bring''' two thoughts to mind.''  Hope this helps.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/79.122.90.101|79.122.90.101]] ([[User talk:79.122.90.101|talk]]) 22:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:It would help even more if you weren't quite so categorical in your responses.  Please let your words speak for themselves, without the need to emphasise them unduly.  If you believe there's one and only one correct answer to a controversial question, please provide your authority.  (Btw, your answer to the thread above has been questioned as well.) --  [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 01:57, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

: And, by the way: a sentence containing a parenthesis needs to make sense with the parenthesis deleted.  Keeping this rule in mind can help you not put the closing ')' in the wrong place. —[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 01:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

== Laugh(ing) like a drain ==

Where does this expression originate?--[[User:GreenSpigot|GreenSpigot]] ([[User talk:GreenSpigot|talk]]) 20:16, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

:This [http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/224000.html] says: "This is a UK phrase, from around the time of WWII. It is first recorded by [[Eric Partridge]] in A dictionary of forces' slang 1939–45, 1948. He describes it as 'Ward-room and also Army officers’ slang'". The etymology / sense seems unclear.  The link speculates on some implied onomatopoeic <s>gargling</s> gurgling pun.  --[[User:Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM|Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM]] ([[User talk:Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM|talk]]) 21:07, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
::Interesting. Could it be refwerence to the [[gurgling]] sound as when pouring water down the drain pipe?--[[User:GreenSpigot|GreenSpigot]] ([[User talk:GreenSpigot|talk]]) 22:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Oops, it´s them [[gargoyle]]s gurgling at the dentist´s [[spitoon]] I was laughing about in my Freudian slippers.  --[[User:Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM|Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM]] ([[User talk:Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM|talk]]) 23:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

::And possibly an open mouth/throat like a drain to produce the uninhibited noise?  [[User:Julia Rossi|Julia Rossi]] ([[User talk:Julia Rossi|talk]]) 01:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

== Good name? ==

I met this guy (from India) a while ago on holiday and he asked me what my good name was, I had no understanding of what he meant until someone explained it to me, at which point I responded. When he said "good name" I thought it might be a type of name such as [[forename]] and [[surname]].

When I went on holiday in summer, on the plane I saw a movie called [[Outsourced]], in it, a man meets this Indian guy who asked him what his good name was, he also seemed quite confused. Why do some people ask "What is your good name?" and not just "What's your name?"? 

I understand that they are complimenting your name, but that seems kind of wierd as they haven't even heard it yet - so how can you compliment it if you haven't heard it (the compliment seems almost insincere). 

I live in the UK and have never heard this phrase used there, and I concider myself a well-travelled man and have only heard it the one time. I have never heard this phrase used in America either. So is this just a phrase used in India, or is it used anywhere else in the world? Thanks. [[User:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy]] ([[User talk:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|talk]]) 23:46, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

:"Your good self" and "your good name" have a certain [[Colonialism|colonial]]/[[Post colonialism|post colonial]] ring to them. Some things just become the uninspected <s>bedrock</s> [[Drift (geology)|drift]] of customary phrases, perhaps.  [[User:Julia Rossi|Julia Rossi]] ([[User talk:Julia Rossi|talk]]) 01:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

:: Thanks for putting it like that, because I have heard "Your good self" many times before, but never thought about it like that (i.e. associated it with the oddity that is "your good name").[[User:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy]] ([[User talk:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|talk]]) 01:45, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

: In ''[[The Namesake (film)]]'' (about an Indian family in New York) the son's "good name" is mentioned several times.  If I remember right, the son is given an informal name at birth, and later a "good name"; and in his teens he says he wants to change his "good name" from one of his given names to the other. —[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 01:49, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

So is that just the name they prefer to be called, like a nickname? [[User:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy]] ([[User talk:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|talk]]) 02:00, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

: I got the impression that it's a formal or ceremonial name. (It's best to indent by one more than whatever you're responding to.) —[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 05:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

"Your good name" in the Indian context is the same as saying "your honorable name;" it is just an old way of being polite. In the ''other'' sense, your good name is your reputation, and this usage is quite common in American English. [[User:DOR (HK)|DOR (HK)]] ([[User talk:DOR (HK)|talk]]) 08:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

== American 'save the world' films ==

Why is it that the 'President' on all films where America saves the world talks big but always speaks a type of English that makes him sound like he dropped out of school when he was 16? I know for a fact that educated Americans (and even American presidents!) do not talk like that. I am talking about [[Impact Earth]] and [[Independence Day]], as well as others. Watching this stuff is like reading the [[Sunday Sport]] - full of emotive language and cliches.--[[User:Givnan|ChokinBako]] ([[User talk:Givnan|talk]]) 23:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

:Well I would guess that films portray American presidents as ignorant ill-educated fools is because they (usually) are! You say American presidents don't talk like that, I can't comment on [[Impact Earth]] or [[Independence Day]] as I havn't seen either, but they don't talk as if they are educated either. Generally, [[Bushism|American presidents talk rubbish]]. I have never read the Sunday Sport, so I can't comment on that.

:Generally fiction needs some realism - aliens, time travel and other obsurdities are within the realms of one's imagination, but an intellectual American president - now that's going too far. I suggest if you wan't something so impossible to be depicted in film, you make your own. ''Please don't take this paragraph too seriously!''

:It is believed by many people ('''not including me''' when talking about Americans in general) that Americans (''especially'' American presidents) aren't very intelligent *understatement of the year*. Clearly the makers of the films you mention believe that playing on this cliche of a stereotype enhances their film in some way - this stereotype can be (and often is) exploited for great comic effect.

:Hope that helps.[[User:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy]] ([[User talk:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|talk]]) 00:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

::Cheers, you are making sense. Also (at the risk of this question becoming unrelated to language), why is it that the nuclear bomb is the answer to everything? Haven't the directors of these farcical films realised yet that the end of their stories are so incredibly predictable, with a President talking like a teenager and a nuke at the end? Oh, no, of course, these films are aimed at the uneducated masses (of which we have our fair share here in the UK, so this is not a dig at the US)....--[[User:Givnan|ChokinBako]] ([[User talk:Givnan|talk]]) 00:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

: One doesn't watch a show like ''Independence Day'' for sophisticated writing. (Sophisticated visual effects, yes.) —[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 01:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, most people aren't very intelligent as you've outlined, and so the fact that most films share the same plot and are unbelievably predictable means nothing because most people are to stupid to notice. [[Quantum of Solace]] for example is coming out in 4 days and I'll probably go to see it (mainly for conversational purposes), even though I'm sure it will have a similar plot (if not the same) to every other Bond film made. It will probably also have many factual errors and continuity errors, none-the-less it will undoubtedly be a major success (just like Casino Royale).[[User:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy]] ([[User talk:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|talk]]) 01:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

:One doesn't watch a movie such as Independence Day for the erudite dialogue because of the lack of erudite dialogue. Though I do wonder why one would watch a show like Independance Day at all.[[User:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy]] ([[User talk:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|talk]]) 01:41, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

What are you talking about? [[Bill Pullman]]'s speech in [[Independence Day (film)]] is one of the greatest by any president real or fiction. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[Wikipedia:Editor review/Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>Review!</sup></font></b>]]''' 01:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

:In what way? I'm not saying you're wrong (as I haven't seen the film), I'm just enquiring. [[User:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy]] ([[User talk:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|talk]]) 01:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

::(EC)Right, and the aliens' computer just happens to be able to understand DOS, or whatever other ''human'' computer language the virus was written in. Oh, and they also used a USB or some such other ''human'' interface. Total crap.--[[User:Givnan|ChokinBako]] ([[User talk:Givnan|talk]]) 02:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

From that statement, It does sound as if it is "total crap"! [[User:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy]] ([[User talk:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|talk]]) 03:14, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
:Yes, ''Independence Day'' does use the [[Hollywood OS]] and yes, it is rather predictable.  But it's a fun movie.  It's mental bubble gum and visually pretty cool for its time.  It wasn't supposed to be the next ''[[Citizen Kane]]'' but it's a long way from ''[[Ishtar]]''.  As for Bill Pullman's speech, I don't remember it word for word but given that the speech was impromptu, not written by speech writers on the president's staff, and directed towards a bunch of refugees in their own country assembled on the tarmac who were portrayed as everyday Joes (I don't recall right now whether they were able to broadcast the speech at that point in the movie), I don't think that they did that bad with it.  I wonder what the OP's opinion of ''[[Air Force One (film)|Air Force One]]'' is...  <span style="font-family:monospace;">[[User:Dismas|Dismas]]</span>|[[User talk:Dismas|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 05:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
:"full of emotive language and cliches" That's the way most politicians talk when they're making speeches for general consumption, regardless of nationality. [[User:Clarityfiend|Clarityfiend]] ([[User talk:Clarityfiend|talk]]) 06:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

:The main problem with the speech is that he claims July 4 will now be the world's Independence Day. Lame. There is a radio program from the British point of view that discusses that ([[Independence Day UK]]). By the way, is "Impact Earth" supposed to be [[Deep Impact]]? I would say Morgan Freeman is a better president than Bill Pullman but I don't recall his speech at all. [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] ([[User talk:Adam Bishop|talk]]) 08:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

::The speech is reminiscent of the President's speech in the final movie of [[Battlestar Galactica]] - very emotive and patriotic. And, it wasn't [[Deep Impact]] - although I do have the misfortune to have seen that, too. [[Impact Earth]] was a docudrama on Discovery Channel. As for [[Air Force One]], I have not seen that, but was intending to until it came up in this thread. If there is any relevance at all to the theme of this thread, then I may give it a miss.--[[User:Givnan|ChokinBako]] ([[User talk:Givnan|talk]]) 09:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

= October 27 =

== Itinerant job? ==

"After growing up in Liverpool, the brothers, following their father's itinerant job,......"

This is from [[Red Flag (band)]].

A person moving often to find work is "itinerant".  Is it a) reasonable or b) over-reaching to talk of an itinerant job?  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:CBHA|CBHA]] ([[User talk:CBHA|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CBHA|contribs]]) 02:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


:Itinerant...
*...as a noun - One who travels from place to place
*...as an adjective - Habitually travelling from place to place

:From this I wouldn't think that you can say itinerant job, but I may be wrong. [[User:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy]] ([[User talk:W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy|talk]]) 03:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
:Jobs don't ''travel'' from place to place; people do. I would rephrase it as "...the brothers, because of the itinerant nature of their father's job,..." (However, if an eccentric billionaire paid you to to move around a lot, I'd call that an itinerant job.) [[User:Clarityfiend|Clarityfiend]] ([[User talk:Clarityfiend|talk]]) 06:10, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

::In the globalized era, jobs do indeed ''travel'' from place to place. If people in one place aren't sufficiently experienced, educated or expert; happen to be too expensive; or have the bad luck to live in an unstable or high tax jurisdiction, that job is going to hit the road if it possibly can. Pay attention to your productivity and those jobs will stick around. [[User:DOR (HK)|DOR (HK)]] ([[User talk:DOR (HK)|talk]]) 08:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

== Swimming halls and pools ==

What is a building containing indoor swimming pools called in English? Is it just a swimming pool? In Finnish, it is called "[[:fi:Uimahalli]]", literally meaning "swimming hall", and it's the same in Swedish: "[[:sv:Simhall]]". [[User:JIP|<font color="#CC0000">J</font><font color="#00CC00">I</font><font color="#0000CC">P</font>]] | [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 06:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

:"Aquatics Centre" is a common fancy name, as in [[Beijing National Aquatics Center]], but I can't think of a common name that people would actually say. A "swimming pool" is either in someone's backyard, or it is a single outdoor public pool, or a single pool in one of these buildings. Maybe "swimming centre"? I've never heard anyone say "swimming hall". [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] ([[User talk:Adam Bishop|talk]]) 07:57, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
*I'd agree with that answer. Indoor swimming pools don't really have a special name (in Dutch or English) Aquatics centre is the word people use for such a building, but it in day to day life, it still tends to be called simply a pool. -- [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 08:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
::For me, the answer would probably depend on what the place called itself. If I was going to the [[YMCA]] to swim, I'd probably say "I'm going to the Y". If, when I was an undergrad at the University of Texas, I had ever gone to the [[Lee and Joe Jamail Texas Swimming Center]], I probably would have said "I'm going to the swimming center". And so forth. I don't think I'd have a single generic name for a building containing an indoor swimming pool. In German, though, I'd use "Schwimhalle" (like Finnish and Swedish above). —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] 08:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

:::For indoor swimming pools specifically, we, in the North West of England, use 'swimming baths' or just 'baths', while for an outdoor pool, if there was one, we'd say 'the swimming pool'.--[[User:Givnan|ChokinBako]] ([[User talk:Givnan|talk]]) 09:43, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
::::For others of us, saying "I'm going to ''[[Gay bathhouse|the baths]]''" means something quite different, which probably doesn't involve swimming at all. Then there's the option of going to [[The Baths]], which probably involves swimming outdoors in the ocean for most people. —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] 09:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

::In eastern [[Australia|Oz]] we tend to say we're going to the pool (which includes any number of pools available), or more specifically, use the name of the leisure or swim centre (eg, I'm going to "Bubbles" or whatever). We use baths in the term "ocean baths" rather than "ocean pool", though they may be a built up swimming area around the beach and ocean, or a cemented tidal pool. [[User:Julia Rossi|Julia Rossi]] ([[User talk:Julia Rossi|talk]]) 10:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

If you want to be Latinate, you can call it a [[natatorium]]. That's what the building containing the swimming pool at my high school was named. [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 10:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)