View source for Talk:Charlie Crist/Archive 2

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== ABF ==

On 25 Aug, Keeper76 wrote the edit summary, ". . . Overwhelming consensus here is that the tag is legitimate, the project wants to include this article, like any other project, and to assert otherwise is fallacious and ABF". I call upon Wikipedians to refrain from a culture of cliquishness which is big at WP. One way to do so it to use in group acronyms and abbreviations like "ABF" only sparingly, and to err on the side of full phrases. [[User:Hurmata|Hurmata]] ([[User talk:Hurmata|talk]]) 23:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

:"ABF"=Assume Bad Faith, or in other words, to believe that edits with which one disagrees are made with nefarious intentions. There is an [[WP:ABF|essay]] on the topic. Wikipedia guidelines are to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]] unless there is a reason to believe otherwise. I don't think that either side is acting in bad faith over the back-and-forth over the template's addition, although I am beginning to develop whiplash from watching it on-off-on-off-on-off... '''[[User:Horologium|<font color="DarkSlateGray">Horologium</font>]]''' <small>[[User talk:Horologium|(talk)]]</small> 00:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
::Apologies for the use of the acronym, Hurmata.  I was out of room on the edit summary window, which should have been an indicator that I was saying too much, not an indicator that I should start abbreviating.  I should've just left the last 7 words +1 acronym out of there, I regret them.  [[User:Keeper76|<font color="#21421E" face="comic sans ms">Keeper</font>]] {{IPA|&#448;}} [[User talk:Keeper76|<font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">76</font>]] 15:39, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Becksguy decided this topic was a subheading of another, so he reoutlined it. He did that with two topics. When I undid this reoutlining, the edit didn't even show up in the page history. So I'm trying again. This time, instead of just changing the heading markup (from === to ==), I'm typing in text that I can sign. [[User:Hurmata|Hurmata]] ([[User talk:Hurmata|talk]]) 03:15, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
== Now that the 2008 Republican VP contest is over . . . ==

Now that Sarah Palin was chosen running mate two days ago, I expect the raging urge to push rumors about Charlie Crist to disappear. I'll just have to see; hasn't happened yet. [[User:Hurmata|Hurmata]] ([[User talk:Hurmata|talk]]) 00:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

:Oh, still not yet. After scrubbing the latest dreck, I got a hunch. Sure enough, since me on 22 July and someone else on 17 July, nobody has added anything ''substantive'' to this article, meaning anything about Crist's actions as governor or his expressions of opinion about Florida affairs. And also between 9 July and 16 July, nothing of that kind. What's wrong, is the legislature out of session? I'm not overlooking that people have edited what was already in the article, but I'm referring to adding new topics or new information about topics. [[User:Hurmata|Hurmata]] ([[User talk:Hurmata|talk]]) 06:50, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Now, certain people will be waiting with bated breath for the December wedding to be called off. [[User:Hurmata|Hurmata]] ([[User talk:Hurmata|talk]]) 02:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

== Yellow journalism by [[User:Researchnews]] in this article ==

[[User:Horologium]] has reverted today's edit by [[User:Researchnews]]. Rightly so. The edits cited only one reference, an annual report by the state Auditor General. However, some of [[User:Researchnews]]'s charges were not contained in that report. A possible source for the remaining charges is a letter to the editor of a Florida newspaper in August 2008. This letter contains the "7 percent, 93 percent" statements, the news about the federal Dept of HHS "putting Florida's MFCU on probation", and -- tellingly -- the ungrammatical use of the pronoun 'on' that crops up in [[User:Researchnews]]'s edit. (It is of course possible that these talking points had been published earlier elsewhere and were just picked up by this particular letter writer.) However, [[User:Researchnews]] -- a user with a blank user page -- failed to acknowledge that Crist had only been on the job (as Attorney General) for less than a month when the Feds issued this chastening -- i.e., everything in the Feds' complaint (assuming the validity of the complaint) happened before Crist had responsibility for the problems. [[User:Hurmata|Hurmata]] ([[User talk:Hurmata|talk]]) 02:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oops, forgot to give the URL for the document I referred to. It's http://www.northcountrygazette.org/2008/08/17/florida_fraud/. [[User:Hurmata|Hurmata]] ([[User talk:Hurmata|talk]]) 02:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

[[User:Researchnews]]I am new to Wikipedia. In time I believe my grammar will improve and I will learn about the user page so it is no longer blank. My doctorate is in Medical Biology and Statistics, not grammar. I am open to learning. For over four years I have researched Charlie Crist (as Attorney General and Governor) in his relationship with the Medicaid Fraud Control Unit. Three references were cited. One of the references was removed on the Attorney General report page (audit report No. 2004-033). Prior to removing it, I made a copy. The other two references are also audit reports. I consider these reliable references. In addition, I am the author of the article you refer to in the North County Gazette. Is it yellow journalism on my part, when I relay the information from the audit report using their numbers, but presented in a different light?

The audit report states "1270 cases closed by the MFCU." The reader is left believing the MFCU is doing a great job, until you read further in the audit report. It discloses only 88 cases resulted in convictions and the remainder were unfounded or lacked evidence. That means 1182 cases and thousands of lives were destroyed, in order for Crist to remove Florida from a “high risk status” and the MFCU from probation.  When reliable and referenced information is removed is that considered censorship? 
<ref>http://www.myflorida.com/audgen/pages/pdf_files/2008-012.pdf, page 1</ref> [[User:Researchnews|Researchnews]] ([[User talk:Researchnews|talk]]) 12:30, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[[User:Researchnews|Researchnews]] ([[User talk:Researchnews|talk]]) 17:36, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
== Max Linn's accusation ==

I have a question on this  entry - someone else put it in - "In 2006, controversy surrounding a proposed gay marriage ban and rumors about Crist's own sexuality were stirred when Reform Party candidate Max Linn claimed that he believed Charlie Crist to be gay." I would like to see it placed in chronological order, because it is something that dates to 2006, placing it at the beginning of the section if it stays- if  it is edited out I would like someone else higher up the chain to make the decision to edit it out - I really don't want to get into the dialogue on the discussion page about this issue - so some editorial direction on that entry would be helpful. Also "Max Linn" should have brackets around it to point to his article page, however his article page seems to be in question about whether it is to be removed. --[[User:4rousseau|4rousseau]] ([[User talk:4rousseau|talk]]) 19:03, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

:I have been removing the information repeatedly, primarily because of the way it had been framed by the various editors who had been adding it before (mostly IP addresses, plus [[User:Researchnews]]), but at least this time the framing was not so outrageously over-the-top, it correctly identifies [[Max Linn]] as one of his opponents in the Gubernatorial race, and the sources are better than the previous offerings. I still think it's an [[WP:UNDUE|undue weight]] issue, but at least it's well sourced (no axe-grinding columnists, gossip columns from marginal free newspapers, and blogs), mindful of NPOV, and in a section that is relevant to the topic. I'm punting on this one. '''[[User:Horologium|<font color="DarkSlateGray">Horologium</font>]]''' <small>[[User talk:Horologium|(talk)]]</small> 21:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Max Linn's accusation should have stayed... people have been arguing about whether or not to put the plethora of gay rumors on this page for about 5 years now. Too many people are defending Crist's reputation because of a political agenda. The page is currently telling a lie by creating the idea that the only reference to Crist being gay was in the movie "Outrage" but that ignores the MANY accusations which lead up to the film. I added the Max Linn statement and was finally told by an editor that it could stay because it was properly sourced and was significant enough. Let's not forget that there were the two Republican aides who claimed (publicly) to have slept with him... It's not like these rumors don't have any foundation.
[[Special:Contributions/98.203.23.189|98.203.23.189]] ([[User talk:98.203.23.189|talk]]) 08:00, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

== Trade mission to Europe in July 2008 ==

Discussion of deletions made in this subsection. 
*"Crist did not give an explanation for why a Spanish solar company was required, rather than a domestic solar company". No explanation needed: long before globalization, corporations were doing business multinationally — clients were considering foreign vendors, and vendors were making sales in foreign countries. Beyond that, Crist could have made a trade mission to California, which would be within the same country but would be about equally distant, hence about equally expensive in travel costs.
*"There also were questions raised about the seriousness of the trip events, given the participation of the Governor's fiancee, Carole Rome" The reference cited does not substantiate this. The reference is a gallery of 46 photos with captions. If you're going to cite one of these photo captions, integrity demands you cite the photo number, just as you would not cite a quote from a 400 page book and leave out the page number. I found a caption (to photo number 7?) where a ''British'' newspaper alleged vaguely that Crist was "under fire for a 'jaunt'". This is not a sufficient reference. After about photo number 26, I quit the search for the damning captions. Beyond this, it is unworthy of WP to report that being accompanied by one's fiancee on a trade mission raises questions about the seriousness of the mission. Of course there will be "photo ops" and obsequious niceties spoken, that's irrelevant. The fact that one prime minister will host a visiting foreign prime minister at a gala dinner does not lead anyone to suppose that no business of state was transacted. 
*Embraer in Melbourne". There is only one place that said this, a Miami Times/Herald article. Point 1, Embraer is Brazilian, not European. Point 2, Embraer's expansion came in May 2008, two months before the controversial trade mission to Europe. Either the Times/herald had a brain fart in quoting the governor, or the governor had a brain fart in composing the press release. Either way, the content is so grossly unfactual that WP would need to strongly verify it, especially in a BLP. [[User:Hurmata|Hurmata]] ([[User talk:Hurmata|talk]]) 08:57, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

so if it is legitimate source quoting what you call a "brain fart" as a fact- then that fact needs to be purged by you from the article?--[[User:4rousseau|4rousseau]] ([[User talk:4rousseau|talk]]) 00:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
== Kirby Dick's documentary Outrage includes Crist ==

Kirby Dick is an article in WP, his movie Outrage is an article in WP, thus the two items when paired with Crist are worthy of being addressed in this article. So, I have attempted to include the item as part of Crist's bio in as objective a manner possible. There have been attempts to add this item in recent days - posted and removed -posted and removed etc- however, those attempts were written in an inflammatory style, bordered on vandalism and did not cite references. Hopefully, future edits will include well sourced material and will be written objectively.--[[User:4rousseau|4rousseau]] ([[User talk:4rousseau|talk]]) 23:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:I agree with [[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]]'s  recent edits to make this article more npov, such as retitling the blatantly opinionated "Reverses position on offshore oil drilling" and removing the section "Greer under fire", which is very unbalanced.  However, this article still has problems with imbalance, non-neutral tone, and undue weight. It seems to be largely one-sided, heavy on the critics and noticeably absent supporting views for balance. By simply listing all the legislation that Crist has voted for or against as governor with little context or balance is more a collection of indiscriminate information than a biographical article.

:I've asked for a [[WP:BLP/N#Charlie Crist and Outrage (documentary)|BLP review]] of the "Personal life" section's supposed "outing" content, as the use of left-wing opinion blogs such as salon.com and huffingtonpost and an obscure indie film do not constitute reliable secondary sources required by BLP for defamatory content. It it also a misreresentation to characterize such as "mainstream media". This kind of highly negative content requires solid, secondary sourcing such as Time magazine, The NY Times, Associated Press, etc., to comply with WP:BLP. Indeed, even the Variety movie review says the film may have libel issues. <i><b><small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JGHowes|<font style="color:white;background:#008000;">&nbsp;JGHowes&nbsp; </font>]]</span></small><font color="blue"> <sup>[[User talk:JGHowes|''talk'']]</sup></font></b></i> 21:22, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

" as the use of left-wing opinion blogs such as salon.com and huffingtonpost" -- they are not solely left wing blogs - to describe them solely as such conveys a right wing bias to me, but I assume good faith.--[[User:4rousseau|4rousseau]] ([[User talk:4rousseau|talk]]) 00:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC) 

::I agree that the structure used for this article isn't the greatest, and also that the writing is not as neutral as I would like. I also think that perhaps the "Outrage" film information doesn't belong; its sourced to blogs (and Variety of all things), and given the claims I think we should ask for a higher degree of sourcing here. This article, like any BLP, is intended to be a full and complete biography - but a major claim of hypocrisy and homosexuality, with scant coverage and no evidence, doesn't make the cut in my mind. [[User:Nathan|<strong style="color:#0033CC">Nathan</strong>]][[User talk:Nathan|<sup><strong style="color:#0033CC">  T  </strong></sup>]] <sup>(formerly Avruch)</sup> 14:07, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
"(and Variety of all things)"-- Variety is a trade magazine over 100+ years old. --[[User:4rousseau|4rousseau]] ([[User talk:4rousseau|talk]]) 00:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I have included several additional sources the NY Times, NPR, LA Times, San Francisco Chronicle, Washington Post in addition to the original sources posted.--[[User:4rousseau|4rousseau]] ([[User talk:4rousseau|talk]]) 23:54, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

There are no solid sources for the rumors of homosexuality regarding Charlie Crist, though as a Floridian I can tell you these rumors have been around for decades and predate the "liberal blogs" that JGHowes cites as the ultimate source for such.  And "Max Linn" isn't the sole person to come forward making accusations.  He's just the first to get widespread coverage.  Be that as it may, there is, as noted, no solid evidence, and the governor denies it.  Whether you follow the adum of "where there is smoke there is fire" is a personal choice.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:JackFloridian|JackFloridian]] ([[User talk:JackFloridian|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/JackFloridian|contribs]]) 13:48, 9 October 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Section removed: "Greer under fire" ==

I've removed this section, which only very peripherally concerns Crist (he appointed Greer and he supported Greer after some questioned Greer's actions).  I'm not even sure that the section would be worth including in the bio of Greer himself, since it's basically an argument over the most effective use of political funds (yawn); no illegalities are even alleged.  In any case, the removal from this article is per [[WP:NPOV]]; an entire section (or even, in my opinion, a single sentence) on this matter is clearly undue weight and space.  (Removed wording follows.)  -- <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </font>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 19:15, 12 May 2009 (UTC) 

:One day after the RGA conference, [[Jim Greer]], the Republican Chairman in Florida appointed by Crist and a long time friend and Crist staffer, came under fire from fellow GOP McCain staff in Florida with regard to how the party was spending its money during the election. Some questioned payments made for [[Tampa Bay Rays]] games, [[New York Yankees]] games, trips to [[Disney World]], and $682,000 on chartered planes; and wondered why the funds were not spent on air time for television and radio advertising. Greer and others responded that they were operating within the rules and such expenditures had to be made in order to court major donors. Greer also stated that all funds had been offered to the McCain campaign in [[Virginia]], and the McCain headquarters returned the funds back to the [[Republican Party of Florida]]. <ref>Miami Herald "Republicans ask Florida GOP to explain spending" http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking-news/story/773319.html</ref> Crist immediately sent a letter detailing his support for Greer and his endorsement of Greer's re-election as chair of the party in Florida. <ref>Miami Herald "Crist quickly comes to Greer's defense in finance spat" http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2008/11/crist-quickly-c.html</ref>
it is always fascinating to see the new folks who arrived at an article for the first time on the date a pol launches a campaign. the section on greer remains-- it is consistent with the paragraphs preceding it -- it details the dynamics of the FL Republican party and Crist's involvment and how it affects Crist, who is the subject. 
Also, the subject for Ban on Gay Adoption remains because it is an existing ban the Gov supports -- not a general topic of Gay Adoption-- same thing with civil unions etc. attempting to replace "minority groups" with the term "cultural issues" lacks an understanding and sophistication about the subject and how it is discussed in academia and other spheres--[[User:4rousseau|4rousseau]] ([[User talk:4rousseau|talk]]) 21:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

:Actually, I agree with the changes that John made to the article, as they did a lot to restore an NPOV balance that was lacking in this article. The headings should be generic and rather sterile; the text following the headings is where it is appropriate to detail his views on the subject. I have reverted to John's last version, restoring his NPOV headings and removing the coatracky section on Greer. '''[[User:Horologium|<font color="DarkSlateGray">Horologium</font>]]''' <small>[[User talk:Horologium|(talk)]]</small> 21:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

::I have made many attempts to not be coatracky-- in fact removing other edits that were off the charts. I trust Horologium's call on this -- don't know John etc, never saw that handle before on this article etc..--[[User:4rousseau|4rousseau]] ([[User talk:4rousseau|talk]]) 22:08, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

:::One final thing, i think culture, race, minority status are distinctly different things--listing "cultural issues" misses the mark in a number of ways.--[[User:4rousseau|4rousseau]] ([[User talk:4rousseau|talk]]) 22:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

::::Okay, I'll coast on Horologium's reputation rather than mine.  And yes, I agree that "Cultural issues" isn't quite right; all I can say in my defense is that it was "Minority groups" before, which was even more wrong.  Perhaps "Social issues", or "Social and cultural issues"? -- <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </font>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 01:01, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

why is "minority groups" even more wrong? they (gays, blacks) are demographically minorities in that region of the US. people are not born "socially black" so social issues and social cultural issues  does not cover it. It is best to think of this in terms that the US Census uses --and demographically the census uses the term minorities.--[[User:4rousseau|4rousseau]] ([[User talk:4rousseau|talk]]) 00:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 
I want to reiterate that the issue [[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]]  said he "yawned" over -namely use of campaign funds- plays into Crist's runoff against his opponent fellow Repub. Marco Rubio and how the Repub. party Greer heads up is assessing each candidate.--[[User:4rousseau|4rousseau]] ([[User talk:4rousseau|talk]]) 00:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)