View source for Talk:Plurality voting

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[[/archive1|Talk Archive 1]]

==One Person, One Vote==
I think this section being listed as an advantage needs to either be clarified properly or removed outright.  The "one person, one vote principle as cited by the Supreme Court of the United States" with regards to the assertion that "...each voter is only able to cast one vote in a given election, where that vote can only go to one candidate," does not exist.  The modern crux of the concept of "one person, one vote" comes from the ''[[Baker_v._Carr|Baker v. Carr(1962)]]'' decision, which led to the ''[[Reynolds_v._Sims|Reynolds v. Sims(1964)]]'' and ''[[Wesberry_v._Sanders|Wesberry v. Sanders(1964)]]'' decisions.  None of these decisions have anything to do with the aforementioned assertion, but with apportionment (or reapportionment), which in summary means that all voting districts must have an approximately equal number of people.  So considering this a valid advantage of plurality voting has no basis in fact, despite being a widely held belief.

If it were not for this being a widely held belief (even though erroneous), I would propose it be deleted with no alternative.
[[User:SouthStExit|SouthStExit]] ([[User talk:SouthStExit|talk]]) 06:53, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

==Yay/Nay System==
I'm looking for information on the Yay/Nay Voting System, but Wikipedia does not appear to have anything on this.  Can I request someone write this up?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/82.37.37.44|82.37.37.44]] ([[User talk:82.37.37.44|talk]]) 18:54, 10 May 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Biased Viewpoint==
This article spends most of it's time criticizing FPTP even during the advantages section. It requires a complete rewrite.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.242.27.78|99.242.27.78]] ([[User talk:99.242.27.78|talk]]) 23:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Balance means a balance of the evidence, not an equal weight for yes and no. Almost all people who've studied the issue, and are not drawing a salary by manipulating the foibles of plurality, conclude that there are better options. Let me Godwin this: would you want the [[Holocaust]] to have a "balanced" advantages section? [[User:Homunq|Homunq]] ([[User talk:Homunq|talk]]) 16:57, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

:: "Almost all people who've studied the issue, and are not drawing a salary by manipulating the foibles of plurality, conclude that there are better options." As a political scientist, I disagree with this assertion.  That comment is almost certainly biased.  I agree that this article could use some work. [[User:Glaucon3|Glaucon3]] ([[User talk:Glaucon3|talk]]) 05:55, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

IM new to this, but "Ensures a strong government" is something that is wrong with the topic. The are corrupt nations that use the plurality voting system. We should remove/refine that section has I thought you can't put an opinion on wikipedia. Plurality voting is a good basic system, but it doesn't necessarily spell out no corruption.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.169.233.157|75.169.233.157]] ([[User talk:75.169.233.157|talk]]) 21:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Use of 'FPTP' and terminology==

This article uses the term FPTP '''a lot'''. This is incorrect, as FPTP is a colloquialism, even if everyone understand what it means. The correct term should be a ''''''majoritarian system'''''', or a ''''''plurality-based system'''''', as the title itself suggests.

* I suggest that incidences of 'FPTP' are kept to the bare minimum, and that ''''''plural', 'plurality' or 'majoritarian'''''' are used instead. As a politics student, I would be penalised for referring to FPTP. ([[User:RM21|RM21]] 04:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC))

::"majoritarian system" is much broader than FPTP, as is "plurality-based system".  Most systems (other than Borda and a few others) are majoritarian, including FPTP.  Plurality-based systems aren't that common beyond this one, but they exist nonetheless.  Just calling this article '''Plurality''' works---it isn't the best name for the system, but at least it's understood. [[User:CRGreathouse|CRGreathouse]] 06:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


Does anyone know '''when''' the term First Past the Post was coined? It would be interesting to know how old the term is. [[Special:Contributions/69.134.178.235|69.134.178.235]] ([[User talk:69.134.178.235|talk]]) 15:09, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

The term [[single member district plurality]] can replace FPTP  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Tommo 87|Tommo 87]] ([[User talk:Tommo 87|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tommo 87|contribs]]) 11:44, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I see no evidence whatsoever that the term "first-past-the-post" is a colloquialism, as someone suggested above.  The term "first-past-the-post" is certainly used by researchers in the UK, and is virtually the sole term used by the BBC and other media.  It is also used by the British Academy in a recent paper ( http://www.britac.ac.uk/policy/choosing-electoral-system.cfm ).  It really is the standard term in the UK.  I cannot speak for the US. [[Special:Contributions/86.164.31.148|86.164.31.148]] ([[User talk:86.164.31.148|talk]]) 07:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Another reason that terms such as "plurality voting" don't often find favour in the UK is that this use of the word "plurality" is an Americanism.  According to the 2004 edition of the Concise Oxford Dictionary, for instance, the term "plurality" means "the fact or state of being plural" or "a large number of people or things".  Other meanings such as "...receives more than any other but not... an absolute majority" are marked as being specifically American usages.  Traditional British usage would insist that the winner of an FPTP election has a majority even if it's not an "absolute" majority (i.e. even if it's a figure less than 50%): one of the definitions of "majority" in the COD is "the number by which the votes cast for one party or candidate exceed the next" (whereas another definition "the number by which votes for one candidate are more than those for all other candidates together" is marked as being American usage). [[Special:Contributions/86.164.31.148|86.164.31.148]] ([[User talk:86.164.31.148|talk]])  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 07:16, 7 July 2010 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Poland fights for FPTP ==

You may be interested that Poland is trying to import FTPT. If you think that FPTP is "dishonest", then you can check what far more importand problems Poles have with PR lists here, on Polish FPTP civic movement [http://www.jow.pl/ns/index_e.html site]. For example following, which in Britain never occur:
*4 years of minority governments during last 8 years
*11 Prime Ministers during 15 years
*2, 3, and even 4 party coalitions
*no reforms, because each coalition party has different view on everything, they throw off responsibility for fails on each other
*corruption (party bosses are arranging party lists with their stupid soldiers as they want, no one knows those people, how they are selected, "politician" is synonym for "thief", there is surely no constituency link with an MP, "party" is synonym for "mafia", etc.)
*etc. 
:--"PR lists", open or closed lists??
::Mrm, for a country with FPTP and a long ongoing stretch of minority governments, check out Canada: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_minority_governments_in_Canada [[User:Human fella|Human fella]] ([[User talk:Human fella|talk]]) 22:01, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Here is videoclip promoting JOW in Poland: [http://www.jow.org.pl/mpg/jowitki.mpg]. "FPTP" is in polish called "JOW". I hope you will stay with FPTP. In my opinion FPTP is source of british strength. When you defeated Nazis Germans wanted FPTP as they system. Adenauer (German statesman) was insisting on it very hard. But allies did'nt want strong Germany, so they enforced PR lists. The same was in Itally and Japan (they was fighting for FPTP recently, they now have 75% and 66% of FPTP). In France de Gaulle incorporated almost pure british FPTP. You sure dont want PR lists, its system for young - and weak democracies like whole "new Europa" or for example Spain.

:Although myself a fan of SMP (it's SMP, not SMDP) it has its shortcomings. In 1979 Margaret Thatcher's government won the UK election, but didn't win a single seat in Wales or Scotland. In this sense her government's rule of them was seen by many as illegitimate and even colonial.

:: not even Poland is going FPTP (EU-hello, Poland!!)
::: Young, weak and unstable scandinavia uses different variations of PR lists, both open and unluckily also closed ones.

:Just to correct the above comment, Thatcher's 1979 election victory included winning seats in both Scotland and Wales. However throughout the 1980s Scotland and Wales repeatedly voted heavily for non-Conservative parties but still had a Conservative administration. It was Thatcher's tone and the view that she was a south east England based politician with no regard for Scotland or Wales that fueled the grievances rather than whether or not the Conservatives had any MPs there.

:To be honest all voting systems have this regard. I come from [[Surrey]] where the Labour Party has ''never'' had an MP - is Labour rule of there "illegitimate" or "colonial"? And many parties in the past have not contested particular seats - at the moment Labour doesn't stand in Northern Ireland and has had to be dragged into even allowing membership there. But this is a problem under any voting system - short of requiring the voters in every part of the country to majority vote the same party it'll always be a mess. [[User:Timrollpickering|Timrollpickering]] 18:50, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

To be honest I think that showws that most people who oppose proportional representation aren't aware of all the different possible systems. In most systems (STV, open lists) the voters can choose which members of a party they wish to be elected. In Poland the problems of unstable coalitions would not be fixed by forcing everyone into two parties. 

Incidentally who is Poland supposedly fighting against for this? I'm not an expert on the Polish consitution but as I understand it Poland doesn't need permission from anyone else to adopt FPTP, unless the change was intended to also apply to elections to the European Parliament.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Kosice1234|Kosice1234]] ([[User talk:Kosice1234|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kosice1234|contribs]]) 14:29, 15 June 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Ballot or ballot paper ==

I was surprised to see ''ballot paper'' copy-edited to ''ballot paper''.  Although I know that the dictionary definition of both coincides, in the UK, I've only ever heard "ballot paper" used in popular speech. Is this a UK thing? --[[User:Notinasnaid|Notinasnaid]] 07:39, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

:I assume you meant "''ballot paper''" becoming "''ballot''." It must be a UK thing, because as an American, I've never even heard ''or'' read the phrase "ballot paper" before in my life (unless someone is talking about the actual physical paper that a ballot is printed on). --[[User:Matt Yeager|Matt Yeager]] 07:28, 9 October 2005 (UTC)


== Copyediting ==

Alright, in response to the recent "edit conflict"... I don't really care about sub-heads one way or the other. If they're that important to you, keep them in. I just didn't see how they were necesary (the article seemed to flow just fine w/o them, but whatever.) Next time someone makes a lot of positive changes to an article, along with one big negative one, please refrain from a sheer revert of the page and just change it back manually (as you did this most recent time). Thank you. --[[User:Matt Yeager|Matt Yeager]] 07:28, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

:Actually, I did not consider that there were ''any'' positive changes in that edit. Of course, people tend to be more attached to their own words than others, so I invited you to open a discussion. Instead, you reinstated your edits. As I wrote in the history, ''Copyediting is good, but I don't think this improved the accessibility of the example, added because people did not understand. Especially removing sub-heads. Revert. Can we discuss on talk page.''.  I think it would have been better to have that discussion, rather than for my reversion to be immediately undone. That's how revert wars start.

:This example was specifically created because of comments in the discussion that people didn't understand the previous example. I think it's a terrible thing if people can't understand their own democratic processes, so I took pains to make this very accessible. Short sentences. Subheadings to emphasise that two processes take place in any such election. I wrote ''Notice that there were a total of 11 + 16 + 13 = 40 votes'' because I think people some people genuinely are confused by introducing new numbers, rather than immediately deducing that the ''40'' is the sum of the numbers mentioned in the last sentence, and so on. Some changes I saw as neutral, and hence I reverted it.

:Anyway, I will not get into a revert war, but I do not consider this to be any improvement. Here is the history, so anyone else interested can judge for themselves. [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Plurality_electoral_system&diff=24961307&oldid=24952319 http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Plurality_electoral_system&diff=24961307&oldid=24952319]. I have observed, however, that this page isn't so much governed by consensus as by people just doing stuff, like the name change it had a while back. --[[User:Notinasnaid|Notinasnaid]] 16:45, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

::Hmm, I apparantly have a higher opinion of the intelligence of Wikipedians than you do. For instance, I assumed that when the numbers 11, 16, and 13 are listed, followed by "Notice that there were a total of 40 votes cast", that our readers are smart enough to see "total" and realize that there was some addition going on.

::Let's go on, because I'm willing to talk this out. Tell me how this sounds.

:::''"There are three candidates, Amy, Brian and Chloe. Each class member gets a ballot paper, with these three names on it. The class member must put an "X" against one of the names.
:::''"After the election finishes, the papers are sorted into three piles. One pile contains all the papers where there is an "X" against Amy (that is, votes for Amy). The other two piles contain votes for Brian and for Chloe.
:::''"The largest pile decides the winner. For instance, if Amy's pile has 11 votes, Brian's pile has 16 votes, and Chloe's pile has 13 votes, then the winner is Brian."

::I mean, is it just me, or is that unbelievably wordy? Saying that they "put an 'X' against" a name? I actually can't fathom the use of this wording. It seems horrifically un-intuitive (which you--or the author, whoever--acknowledged when you/whoever later said "papers where there is an 'X' against Amy (that is, votes for Amy)". But if you're going to use an original, unintuitive phrase followed by an simple, easy equivalent anyway, why not just use the equivalent in the first place?).

::It goes on. In the third paragraph of the above quotation, "For instance" is redundant and confusing (because you're not introducing a new example, you're just continuing in the same one). 

::Let's continue, shall we?

:::''"Notice that there were a total of 11 + 16 + 13 = 40 votes, and the winner had only 16 of them; only 40%. But that is only the result for this one class."''

::What in the world is the purpose of that second sentence? This is instantly confusing, and there is no possible use. Since, in our little hypothetical class election, we've as of yet only introduced one class, it's very confusing (or at the least, redundant) to say "but that's only the result for this one class".

::I'm not going to bother defending my removal of the subheads (or any other undefended edits); I've made my case that there were positive edits in there and it should not have been blindly reverted. (This is probably going overboard, and I apologize for any offense... please remember that you did ask for it when you said that there weren't '''any''' positive changes in my edit.) --[[User:Matt Yeager|Matt Yeager]] 04:20, 10 October 2005 (UTC).


== Maximizing the weight of a single vote ==

Does anyone have a link to that (famous) pro-FPTP article used in the US 1970s hearings on Voting Rights??
That is, it made the fairly simple (math) argument that "just a few votes" can (unproportionally) change the outcome of a FPTP, two-party, single-seat, winner-takes-all election.

:I believe you're thinking of the argument in favor of the electoral college. --[[User:Scott Ritchie|Scott Ritchie]] 04:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

:: very probably not, this was a very "ancient" academic paper already in the 1970s. Basically noticing that in a two-party system only some few votes can have a maximum of unproportional weight on the final outcome.(including the formation of a government,etc, but that was not really analysed for anything but a 2-party system where the largest number of votes "takes-it-all")

::: IIRC, I once read a paper originally published in the 70s in favor of the electoral college over a nationwide popular vote because it "maximized the chance that an individual's vote would change the outcome." Does that sound like what you're intimating? [[User:Scott Ritchie|Scott Ritchie]] 03:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

== Plurality voting system ==

Thanks to whoever moved the page here! I was wondering why we needed to call this an "electoral system" and not a [[voting system]]. I think we should avoid saying "electoral system" on Wikipedia because it's been used to mean too many different things. '''[[User talk:Rspeer|<span style="color: #63f; text-decoration: none;">r</span>]]'''[[User:Rspeer|<span style="color: #333;">speer</span>]] 06:28, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

:That would be me.  Do you think this would be a good article to target next for cleanup?  --[[User:Scott Ritchie|Scott Ritchie]] 08:02, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

::Yes, though it seems like a daunting task. --'''[[User talk:Rspeer|<span style="color: #63f; text-decoration: none;">r</span>]]'''[[User:Rspeer|<span style="color: #333;">speer</span>]] 16:23, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

:How about moving it back to its original name, ''First past the post''.... any views on this? The move seems to have been done last time without consensus. Or I missed one. [[User:Notinasnaid|Notinasnaid]] 23:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

::Very much opposed to that, since the term is both slang and, worse, restricted to British English. [[User:Scott Ritchie|Scott Ritchie]] 11:24, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

:::I'm American, but I've really only ever heard it referred to as FPTP.  "Plurality" is a broad class of methods to me, not just this particular method. [[User:CRGreathouse|CRGreathouse]] 06:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

:Use may be more widespread in the UK, where it is the only common term, used by those who both support and oppose it. It is not slang, but standard English, appearing in dictionaries.  Even if it ''is'' a largely UK term, changing to a US term might be interpreted as a violation of the Wikipedia principle of ''the first national variation of English chosen defines the variation used for the article in future''. [[User:Notinasnaid|Notinasnaid]] 17:39, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

::On second thought, however, perhaps [[first past the post voting system]] might have an advantage, as first past the post is unambiguous (whereas there are several "plurality" methods, such as [[bloc voting]] (though I have heard it described as "first past the post bloc voting" too) [[User:Scott Ritchie|Scott Ritchie]] 23:32, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

:"First past the post" may be its common name, but the system actually is a "plurality voting system". Besides, the name "First Past The Post" is a really, really crummy name for this system. "Farthest from the start" is more like it. As the name doesn't even make sense, I'd suggest keeping the article here. [[User:Matt Yeager|Matt Yeager]] 04:41, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

::A couple of other reasons to keep it here:
::* Plurality is referenced in a lot of other articles, and "plurality" is easier to say than "first past the post".
::* If we were titling every system by its common name, then IRV and STV would both have to be described at [[preferential voting]]. There's nothing wrong with more formal names that are more precise.
::[[User:Rspeer|'''<span style="color: #63f; text-decoration: none;">r</span><span style="color: #333;">speer</span>''']] / [[User talk:Rspeer|<span style="color: #333;">ɹəəds</span><span style="color: #63f; text-decoration: none;">ɹ </span>]] 06:00, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

== the funnier pseudo-democratic aspects of FPTP systems ==
[[ gerrymandering]]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Illinois_District_4_2004.png

== US FPTP ==
I'm not sure it is correct to say that FPP is the system in use in the US. In congressional elctions for both houses of congress it is not the case that the person with a plurality or relative majority wins and all others loose. If nobody makes the clear majority (50% +1 vote), in a congressional race with three or four candidates for example, then a runoff election is held between the 1st and second place candidates (or however many are tied for those two positions) until somebody gets the clear majority. The electoral college in presidential elections does allow for a president to be elected with the minority of the popular vote, however s/he has still gotten the clear majority of the electoral vote. If nobody gets that, as has happened at least once, then the house of Representatives elects the president. Again, it is not a plurality system. I have removed the statement in the opening that says it is.
:This isn't true - only the state of Louisiana holds runoff elections for cognressional seats.  To be more precise, the US uses first past the post alongside [[primary election|primaries]], however it's still FPTP. As for Presidential elections, the electoral college is a unique voting system in and of itself, however each slate of electors per state (except for two states) is elected using FPTP. [[User:Scott Ritchie|Scott Ritchie]] 01:10, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

::The U.S. does not use first past the post for congressional elections; the states, with the exclusion of Louisiana, do. According to the wording, the United States should not be on this list as the country itself does not. It is the decision of the states to do this and most do, although if they wanted to pass a state amendment that gave it to the person closest to 4.3% of the vote, then they could. It is the state's decision. The U.S. should be removed from the list of countries that use FPTP for the lower/only house. [[User:Bsd987|Bsd987]] 04:47, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

:::You raise a fine technical point: by your reasoning, the only national election in the United States has a total electorate of 538 persons.  Senators, Representatives and Electors for President and Vice President are chosen by 50 (51 in the case of Electors) distinct elections, run under an equal number of distinct sets of rules.  While there are national rules establishing voting rights (the Voting Rights Act of 1965, the 14th, 15th, 19th, 24th and 27th Amendments, etc.) the means of casting, counting and recording votes is left entirely up to the states ([[Bush v. Gore]] notwithstanding).  There is, however, a fair practical uniformity as to rules and methods, and insisting on the technicality is likely to render the article less informative, not more.  The point can be raised in a footnote. [[User:Robert A West|Robert A.West]] ([[User talk:Robert A West|Talk]]) 03:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

::::I noticed that the article says the US uses a single member plurality system but that's not true because the winner of the US election has to have a clear majority in order to win.  It's not first past the post for the US.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/129.173.186.129|129.173.186.129]] ([[User talk:129.173.186.129|talk]]) 14:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==More Strengths==

-Democracy is inherently FPP almost all of the time, regardless of the system. If 55% want something, the other 45% get 0%, the 55% get 100%, as is the case with majority rule. As such, in parliamentary system, getting a majority of the seats puts you "first past the post", and any party not cooperating in Government has no real power. (In fact, many things are FPP. Games, for instance, are often "Win" or "Lose", you don't get a 40% win for getting 40% of the score). So a party could win 10% of the seats for decades and never operate in Government, despite the fact it should proportionally run 10% of them.

Thus, until we have a system of democracy where a number of seats truly equals power, points about "equal representation" are deceiving. In proportional representation, a party could halve its seats but now hold the balance of power and have considerably more say in policy, which is hardly proportional. Therefore, a FPP system may represent the population better, a tyranny of the plurality at least, rather than the minority (who happens to hold the balance of power).

- Coalitions may not represent a majority, despite holding a majority of the seats. Just like FPP can have a plurality elect a majority of the seats, proportional representation systems may elect Governments that do ommand a majority of the vote, but that does not mean the coalition Government may be favoured by that many. 

To illustrate this point, an election on ingredients of a dessert. 36%  of people voted for ice cream. 25% voted for chocolates. 20% voted for strawberries.  12% voted for honey. 7% of people voted for carrots. A coaltion of ice cream, honey and carrots was formed, and the dessert was a combination of all. The vast majority disliked this strange concoction, despite the fact that 55% had voted for one of the ingredients.

-[[User:Nichlemn|Nichlemn]] 05:40, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

:What is your purpose in posting this? Wikipedia is not a soapbox. The talk page should be for discussions of the content of the article, not debates about its topic. [[User:Rspeer|'''<span style="color: #63f;">r</span><span style="color: #555;">speer</span>''']] / [[User talk:Rspeer|<span style="color: #555;">ɹəəds</span><span style="color: #63f;">ɹ </span>]] 07:48, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

:: In this case, the article contains a list of strengths and weaknesses of FPP. I was adding more possibilities. - [[User:Nichlemn|Nichlemn]] 08:24, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

:::I would guess that under such a scenario, ice cream would be much more likely to form a coalition with chocolate and strawberries. You could also have an [[instant runoff]] election, in which the second choices of voters would be tallied until one food reached 50%. -- [[User:Mwalcoff|Mwalcoff]] 23:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I live in Slovakia, a country with proportional representation. Before the last election Prime Minister Dzurinda was on TV and said, "My party would most like to continue in coalition with KDH, ANO and SMK. We would also consider HZDS however our coalition partners KDH will not go into government with them. We would not consider a coalition with SMER or SNS. Therefore the only possible coalitions are the right wing parties SDKU-KDH-SMK-ANO or alternatively SMER-HZDS-SNS". The second of those two possibilities got the most of the votes and therefore formed the government with the power towards the moderate end of that spectrum. In FPTP it isn't required that a party has even 50% of the votes in an individual seat let alone the whole country to wield 100% power as you describe it.

Also, polticians don't have a free choice of who they go into coalition with as voters won't vote for parties that say "wait and see" or make bizarre choices and it would anyway be impossible to agree policies with the other very different parties.

Nobody has practiced it as far as I know, but if a country had full separation of powers then it would make sense to have the legislature elected by PR and the executive elected by the de Condorcet method.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Kosice1234|Kosice1234]] ([[User talk:Kosice1234|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kosice1234|contribs]]) 14:54, 15 June 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== "Simple example" ==

Reviewing the history of this article, I observe that in December someone deleted the "simple example" without discussion and under the general title "deleted junk"; despite considerable discussion already having happened on this section in this talk page. In fact they just leftg a subtitle "more complex example", which seems slapdash. Later it was only partially reinstated. I see this as removing what was making the article accessible and leaving it less accessible, so I am going to reinstate the entire example. Please let's discuss it further here if required. [[User:Notinasnaid|Notinasnaid]] 14:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

== [[Single-winner voting systems]] ==

I just made [[Single-winner voting systems]], mostly by copying from here. I think that the material I copied (advantages and disadvantages) should be removed from here (except for wasted votes, which needs minor editing on both sides to separate the issues) and linked (twice, once for advantages and once for disadvantages). Please discuss here. Since there's nothing that links there yet, I humbly request that you don't nominate that page for deletion until September, to allow the discussion here to mature a bit. --[[User:Homunq|Homunq]] 21:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

== Move or delete "Each representative must be a winner" (advantages) section to another article? ==

The section "Each representative must be a winner" does not appear to be directly relevant to the topic of "plurality voting system". Instead it identifies supposed advantages of certain systems of parliamentary representation (namely, those based around the UK model). It is quite common to confuse ''systems of voting'' (e.g. FPTP vs IRV) and ''methods of representation'' (e.g. US Senate vs Congress, UK Prime Minister vs US President). It is entirely possible to keep all the "advantages" of the Canadian system described in the example here whilst still adoping a different voting method. Thus it seems that this section is not relevant to the topic at hand and should be deleted or moved to another article. I would go ahead and do this but I wanted to make sure other people agree / do not violently disagree first.

< http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Plurality_voting_system&diff=77756318&oldid=71465672 >.

Please do sign that.

[[User:Hopiakuta|hopiakuta]] 07:50, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
:I provisionally disagree. The advantages don't have to be unique to first past the post, but only (perceived and reported) advantages over ''some'' widely reported alternative. Perhaps mentioning prime minister confuses matters, since indeed the leader of government is not always drawn from those elected (indeed, constitutionally in England it doesn't have to be the case, I think).  The advantages and disadvantages are not so very many that they don't fit in the article, especially as they are the core of almost all debate; people should be informed of these points. ''However'', where there is a wealth of material on a subject it is sometimes worth generating an article and leaving a linked summary in the main article: but a living, working summary, not just a link. I would ''strongly'' oppose removing the mention completely, that could easily be interpreted as whittling away at the advantages/disadvantages list, and is likely to mean a future editor simply fills the gap. [[User:Notinasnaid|Notinasnaid]] 08:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

== [[jumble]] ==
[[plurality_voting_system]]

[[plurality]]

[[simple_majority]]

[[absolute_majority]]

[[supermajority]]

"[[supermajoritarian]]", from the "[[absolute_majority]]" article.

It is my impression that this [[labyrinth]] has become a [[complex]] [[jumble]].  Is there some way that this could be otherwise improved?

[[User:Hopiakuta|hopiakuta]] 07:50, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

== Same as instant-runoff voting? ==

"In some countries such as France a similar system is used, but there are two rounds: the "two-round" or "two-ballot" plurality system. The two highest-voted candidates of the first round compete in a two-candidate second round."

Isn't that ''exactly'' what the [[Instant-runoff voting]] article talks about? [[User:2 of 8]]

Not ''exactly'', but ideally the same effect. These elections are called [[Two-round system|two round system]]s. However IRV uses [[Ranked ballot|ranked preference ballots]]  so voters only vote once and the second round (or more) are counted from the same ballots - by eliminating choices and counting a vote for the highest candidate on a ballot who is not eliminated. [[User:Tomruen|Tom Ruen]] 23:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

== Merge proposal with [[Simple majority voting]] ==

A merge tag has been placed in this article by [[User:Yellowbeard]]. As with another merge he just proposed, it's an error. Plurality voting and simple majority voting do coincide in a special case; however, that special case is not the norm in elections.

If there is a plurality voting system in place, and there are only two choices possible, as with a referendum, where the referendum will either pass or fail, plurality is, in this case, identical to simple majority voting, with the added assumption that blanks are not counted toward determining the majority. Simple majority is a basic democratic concept, and the most common example of simple majority voting is -- as with the referendum example -- voting on a motion which either passes or fails. The [[Simple majority voting]] article definitely needs work, though.

Perhaps if [[User:Yellowbeard]] would actually put work in to improving articles, instead of merely running about deleting the work of others, these articles could be improved, or merged in a way that would not lose the work that someone put into them.) (He first proposed the article be deleted, then blanked it himself and redirected it to this article, effectively making the article invisible to anyone who doesn't look at contribution history, so recovering the content for an actual merge -- instead of the mere deletion of information he apparently does not want on Wikipedia -- would be problematic for many users.

See [[Special:Contributions/Yellowbeard]] to look at the history of this user. He's an obvious sock puppet, and SPA account (not one article, but one *class* of articles, and an anti-Range voting intention was apparent from his first activities; indeed, the day he registered, he proposed for deletion [[Schentrup method]], a totally obscure article. Why? Well, besides being a ready target -- the article did not belong on Wikipedia at all, completely non-notable, original research -- the "Schentrup method" is named after Clay Shentrup who dreamed it up one day and probably created the article. Clay Shentrup is a prominent and very outspoken Range Voting advocate and activist against Instant Runoff Voting. Yes, he mispelled his own name. Then, realizing nobody was watching, Yellowbeard AfD'd [[Center for Range Voting]], misrepresenting what it was, and likewise [[Bayesian reget]], an economics concept that is part of the theoretical underpinning for Range Voting. He also continued to successfully AfD many voting systems articles, creating quite a bit of wreckage such as broken links, some of which he did fix.
--[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 20:43, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

In elections is useful to distinguish between a plurality and a majority.  First Past the Post is fundamentally a plurality voting system.  A majority in the sense that most people and democracies understand it - 50% plus one - is not needed. Just a plurality.  The article as stands is informative and I wouldn't merge it. [[User:Gpbury|Gpbury]] ([[User talk:Gpbury|talk]]) 18:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

: I also oppose the merge.  The largest minority vote isn't necessarily a simple majority.  The plurality voting system article should remain separate.  '''''[[User talk:The Transhumanist|<font color="#880088">Th</font><font color="#0000FF">e Tr</font><font color="#449900">ans</font><font color="#DD9922">hu</font><font color="#DD4400">man</font><font color="#BB0000">ist</font> &nbsp;&nbsp;]]''''' 17:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

::Since there's no consensus, I'm going to remove the merge tag. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 11:23, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

== Moderation - not ==

The assertions made in the Moderation section may have intuitive appeal, but they are contradicted by some heavy-duty [http://zesty.ca/voting/sim/ statistical analyzes] by Ka-Ping Yee.  His article (and [http://nutmeg.easternct.edu/~williamsjam/VotingFiles/YeeSimulations.htm my short summary]) clearly shows that of five commonly studied voting methods, plurality is the most hostile to centrist candidates and, by the way, Borda is the most friendly.  In his section titled "Squeezed Out," Yee even gives a case where the centrist candidate is actually squeezed out by the plurality voting method itself.

And then there's [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_Law Duverger's law], which states that plurality voting tends to favor two-party systems.  In turn, two party systems are often associated with the kind of polarization recently seen in the United States Senate.  I do not see how a system that is associated with death-knell polarization can fairly be said to favor moderation.

The argument that political parties tend to put up moderate candidates may be correct, but it is an argument about how people use plurality, not about plurality itself.  In fact, the incentive to win by putting up moderate candidates is common to almost all methods of voting.

If anyone actually has real evidence that plurality favors moderation, I would like to hear about it.  In any case, I recommend that the Moderation section be replaced with evidence-based material.
[[User:Page Notes|Page Notes]] ([[User talk:Page Notes|talk]]) 22:19, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

:I've revised the section, but my version is dangerously [[WP:WEASEL]]ly. The only way to get rid of the weasel is to find some actual empirical evidence. Simulations, such as the Yee data mentioned above, are very suggestive, and I'm convinced in many cases, but they all rely on assumptions about voter strategy that may or may not be borne out in real life. The only evidence which is incontrovertible is empirical. [[User:Homunq|Homunq]] ([[User talk:Homunq|talk]]) 16:53, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

==Gerrymandering== 

I inserted a note and links on this, as it is obviously a major flaw in X-voting.  I was surprised that it was not already there, as it is a notorious abuse in many of the countries listed as users of the system - including the USA.  Why stuff the voting boxes when you can get the same effect by a simple gerrymander?  [[User:Michael of Lucan|Michael of Lucan]] ([[User talk:Michael of Lucan|talk]]) 15:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

==Removed subsection "Ensures strong government"==
Entire subsection was a single sentence containing no cited source, with a 'Dubious' tag from February of 2010. 
''As any majoritarian system, it ensures [[strong government]].''
[[User:Mtiffany71|Mtiffany71]] ([[User talk:Mtiffany71|talk]]) 21:55, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
==Definition. Please.==
This article does not define plurality voting. If anyone who knows what it is would be so kind as to add that it would be appreciated.--[[User:Heyitspeter|Heyitspeter]] ([[User talk:Heyitspeter|talk]]) 19:27, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

== Is this a correct redirect? ==

I made [[Majority representation system]] redirect to '''[[Plurality voting system]]''' based on [http://www.kyivpost.com/news/nation/detail/67506/ this article]. Did I get it right? In general and related to the content in that article? I is not an expert on voting systems... — '''[[User:Mariah-Yulia|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:orange">Mariah-Yulia</span>]]'''&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[User_talk:Mariah-Yulia|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:blue">Talk to me!</span>]] 08:50, 25 May 2010 (UTC)