View source for Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2011 March 4

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===March 4===
[[Category:Non-talk pages that are automatically signed|{{PAGENAME}}]]
<!-- Add new listings at the top of the list with the following formats for deletion and merging respectively:

{{subst:Tfd2|TemplateName|text=Your rationale for nominating the template. ~~~~}}
{{subst:Tfm2|TemplateName|OtherTemplate|text=Your rationale for nominating the template. ~~~~}}

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==== [[Template:WMMS former owners]] ====
:{{Tfdlinks|WMMS former owners}}
'''Propose deletion'''  Template is not used and is not likely to be used. [[User:Levdr1|Levdr1]] ([[User talk:Levdr1|talk]]) 23:50, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Not useful. Unsourced. — <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:1px 0 0 1px">[[User:This, that and the other|This, that]]</span>, and <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:0 1px 1px 0">[[User talk:This, that and the other|the other<small> (talk)</small>]]</span> 00:32, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

==== [[Template:Further]] ====
:{{Tfd links|further}}
:{{Tfd links|see also2}}
'''Propose merging''' [[Template:Further]] with [[Template:See also2]].<br />
Hatnotes. Effect will be: hatnote will read "See also: ...", not "Further information: ...". Semantically they are the same. Reducing the hatnote text-variants is just plain simple. 
{{tlx|further|<nowiki>[[TOPIC]], and [[TOPIC2]]</nowiki>}} &rarr; {{further|[[TOPIC]], and [[TOPIC2]]}}
{{tlx|see also2|<nowiki>[[TOPIC]], and [[TOPIC2]]</nowiki>}} &rarr; {{see also2|[[TOPIC]], and [[TOPIC2]]}}
Technically: both have the same structure, allowing free text for the 1st parameter. {{tl|Further}} to become redirect, or botwise replacement.
-[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 03:24, 8 February 2011 (UTC) ''Earlier TfD: [[Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_May_11#Template:Further|2007_May_11]] (Keep)''. -[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 03:38, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
:''Note:'' A related discussion is started here: {{tl|see}}: [[Template_talk:See#Proposal:_change_text_into:_.22See_also:_...22|change text into: ''See also: ...'']]. -[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 03:53, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' The meanings are not the same. "See also" merely indicates a related article. "Further information" implies a stronger relation, more similar to {{tl|main}}. --[[User:Cybercobra|<b><font color="3773A5">Cyber</font></b><font color="FFB521">cobra</font>]] [[User talk:Cybercobra|(talk)]] 03:59, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' "Further" has a specific meaning that is not indicated by see also. [[Special:Contributions/65.94.45.238|65.94.45.238]] ([[User talk:65.94.45.238|talk]]) 06:42, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
::Re Cybercobra and IP65: I must say, that's what I thought too until some days ago too. But just take a fresh look again: as a hatnote, the "Further information ..." says exactly the same as "See also...". Wherever used correctly in this encyclopedia, the essential hatnote information is not different, it only ''suggests'' so.
::By definition, ''all'' hatnotes provide links to articles, and ''every'' link is related to the topic (section, sentence) it is mentioned in. Testing myself, I have browsed some dozen of links of "Further ...", and have not seen one occasion that that 'specific' meaning was required on that place. I even got less sensitive to a perceived different meaning. And sure {{tl|main}} is different. -[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 09:47, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
:::(1) Main would be an expansion of the topic of a section
:::(2) Further would be to expand on allied topics covered in a section
:::(3) See also would be any of those, in addition to tangentially related subjects
:::Atleast that is my understanding of the differences between them. [[Special:Contributions/65.94.45.238|65.94.45.238]] 13:49, 8 February 2011 (UTC)  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/65.94.45.238|65.94.45.238]] ([[User talk:65.94.45.238|talk]]) </span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::That difference between (2) and (3) can exist, but it is small as neglectible in the encyclopedia, and is not enforced/maintained over template use. In all, these two are interchangeable without error of understanding. Simply: "See also ..." points to related, linked topics. And that's all we need. Maintaining that difference would be more artificial than illuminating. -[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] 14:03, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
::::That is to say: differences ''do'' exist, I agree. But IMO they are too small to maintain here as hatnotes. It requires a high level of editing to keep details right, and still then they don't add much. -[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 17:34, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
<hr style="width:55%;" />
:<span style="color:#FF4F00;">'''[[WP:RELIST|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.'''</span><br /><small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 23:00, 4 March 2011 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:Relist -->

==== [[Template:In-universe/Star Trek]] ====
:{{Tfdlinks|In-universe/Star Trek}}
'''Propose deletion:''' This is just an overly specific variation of {{tl|In-universe}} and redundant to it, as it has "subject" parameter. I also nominate the following templates for the same reason:
{{Top|bgcolor=transparent}}
* {{tl|In-universe/Generic}}
* {{tl|In-universe/Anime and manga}}
* {{tl|In-universe/Comics}}
* {{tl|In-universe/Discworld}}
* {{tl|In-universe/Dungeons & Dragons}}
* {{tl|In-universe/Film}}
* {{tl|In-universe/Literature}}
{{mid|bgcolor=transparent}}
* {{tl|In-universe/Star Wars}}
* {{tl|In-universe/Television}}
* {{tl|In-universe/Three Kingdoms}}
* {{tl|In-universe/Tolkien}}
* {{tl|In-universe/Transformers}}
* {{tl|In-universe/Video game}}
* {{tl|In-universe/Warhammer 40,000}}
{{bottom}} <font color="#082567">[[User:Armbrust|Armbrust]]</font> <sup><font color="#E3A857">[[User talk:Armbrust|WrestleMania XXVII]]</font></sup> <sub><font color="#008000">[[Special:Contributions/Armbrust|Undertaker 19–0]]</font></sub> 22:25, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
*'''Delete all''' ''after'' enabling subject-specific categorization in [[Template:In-universe]] <u>and</u> replacing all transclusions, e.g., <code><nowiki>{{In-universe/Star Trek}}</nowiki></code> → <code><nowiki>{{In-universe|subject=Star Trek}}</nowiki></code>. The primary function of these templates appears to be to place articles into subject-specific categories, such as [[:Category:Star Trek articles that need to differentiate between fact and fiction]]. However, since {{tl|In-universe}} already contains a "subject" parameter, it is better to continue to use that template after enabling subject-specific categorization. -- '''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Black Falcon|talk]])</sup> 22:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
*Black Falcon's suggestion seems reasonable. [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 23:30, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

==== [[Template:WPMuslimGuild-invite]] ====
:{{Tfdlinks|WPMuslimGuild-invite}}
The Muslim Guild has gone away. Superseded by {{tl|WPIslam-invite}}. — <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:1px 0 0 1px">[[User:This, that and the other|This, that]]</span>, and <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:0 1px 1px 0">[[User talk:This, that and the other|the other<small> (talk)</small>]]</span> 10:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
==== [[Template:WPGTMessage]] ====
:{{Tfdlinks|WPGTMessage}}
Old, unused template. Purpose unclear. Near impossible to decipher this spaghetti code. — <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:1px 0 0 1px">[[User:This, that and the other|This, that]]</span>, and <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:0 1px 1px 0">[[User talk:This, that and the other|the other<small> (talk)</small>]]</span> 10:18, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
==== [[Template:ShaivaSampradayas]] ====
:{{Tfdlinks|ShaivaSampradayas}}
Superseded by {{tl|Shaivism}}. — <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:1px 0 0 1px">[[User:This, that and the other|This, that]]</span>, and <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:0 1px 1px 0">[[User talk:This, that and the other|the other<small> (talk)</small>]]</span> 09:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
==== [[Template:Banpresto Originals]] ====
:{{Tfdlinks|Banpresto Originals}}
Unused. Superseded by {{tl|Super Robot Wars}}. — <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:1px 0 0 1px">[[User:This, that and the other|This, that]]</span>, and <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:0 1px 1px 0">[[User talk:This, that and the other|the other<small> (talk)</small>]]</span> 09:06, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
==== [[Template:Berrychart]] ====
:{{Tfdlinks|Berrychart}}
Informative template, but unfortunately with an unclear scope. Where would it be placed? Also unsourced and unused. — <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:1px 0 0 1px">[[User:This, that and the other|This, that]]</span>, and <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:0 1px 1px 0">[[User talk:This, that and the other|the other<small> (talk)</small>]]</span> 09:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
==== [[Template:CEV Cup / Challenge Cup]] ====
:{{Tfdlinks|CEV Cup / Challenge Cup}}
A bit of redlink fever here. — <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:1px 0 0 1px">[[User:This, that and the other|This, that]]</span>, and <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:0 1px 1px 0">[[User talk:This, that and the other|the other<small> (talk)</small>]]</span> 08:56, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
==== [[Template:Campaignbox Ghost Dance War]] ====
:{{Tfdlinks|Campaignbox Ghost Dance War}}
Unused. [[WP:NENAN]] - only two articles. — <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:1px 0 0 1px">[[User:This, that and the other|This, that]]</span>, and <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:0 1px 1px 0">[[User talk:This, that and the other|the other<small> (talk)</small>]]</span> 05:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
* '''Delete''', per [[WP:NENAN]]. [[User:Rehman|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; font-weight:bold; color:darkblue">Reh</span>]][[User talk:Rehman|<span style="color:green">man</span>]] 07:39, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per [[WP:NENAN]]. -- [[User:Joaquin008|<font color="LimeGreen"><b>Joaquin008</b></font>]] <sup>([[User talk:Joaquin008|<span style="color: ForestGreen; font-weight: bold">talk</span>]])</sup> 20:58, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

==== [[Template:Cfd nomination]] ====
:{{Tfdlinks|Cfd nomination}}
No longer used by the CfD process; see [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion#How to use Cfd]]. No longer needed. — <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:1px 0 0 1px">[[User:This, that and the other|This, that]]</span>, and <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:0 1px 1px 0">[[User talk:This, that and the other|the other<small> (talk)</small>]]</span> 05:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
*The template was created to replace {{tl|Cfd2}}, {{tl|Cfm2}}, {{tl|Cfr2}} and {{tl|Cfc2}}, but it has never been put into systematic use. There was some support for the idea when I [[Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion/Archive 2010#Consolidated CFD nomination template|proposed it in October 2010]], following complaints about the complexity of the CfD nomination process, but discussion died down due to valid reservations (and some confusion) about naming. I posted a notice of this discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion]] to invite additional participation. If there is consensus to consolidate the level-2 nomination templates, then we can start working on the details; if there is not, then this template ought to be deleted if no one uses it. -- '''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Black Falcon|talk]])</sup> 07:01, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

==== [[Template:Channels on StarHub TV]] ====
:{{Tfdlinks|Channels on StarHub TV}}
I don't think the channels transmitted by a particular pay TV service represents a close topic navigation (per [[WP:NAVBOX]]). For example, how many different pay TV services would transmit [[National Geographic Channel]]? What if they all had navboxes on that article? There would be too many. Template currently unused. — <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:1px 0 0 1px">[[User:This, that and the other|This, that]]</span>, and <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:0 1px 1px 0">[[User talk:This, that and the other|the other<small> (talk)</small>]]</span> 05:45, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

==== [[Template:Child taxa/Life]] ====
:{{Tfdlinks|Child taxa/Life}}
This is not the child taxa list of all life; this is the child taxa list for some kind of virus (??). Probably broken. Unused. No use. — <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:1px 0 0 1px">[[User:This, that and the other|This, that]]</span>, and <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:0 1px 1px 0">[[User talk:This, that and the other|the other<small> (talk)</small>]]</span> 05:43, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
:It ''is'' the child taxa list for all life. Less than half of those are virus taxa. It's not broken, as can be verified at [[:Category:Immediate_children/Life]]. As for its use, I unfortunately can't answer that. [[User:Smith609|Martin]] will know what it's used for and whether it's actually in use. I doubt he'd have a bot set up to update it if it weren't. [[User:Bob the Wikipedian|<span style="font-family:linux libertine o, times; font-variant:small-caps">Bob the WikipediaN</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Bob the Wikipedian|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bob the Wikipedian|contribs]]) </sup> 06:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

==== [[Template:Infobox Civil Conflict]] ====
:{{Tfdlinks|Infobox Civil Conflict}}
This template is an almost guaranteed violation of NPOV anywhere it's used.  We don't need to refer to the budget [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2011_Wisconsin_protests&diff=prev&oldid=416370877 debate in Wisconsin] (or the [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Scientology_versus_the_Internet&diff=prev&oldid=416598534 internets drama around Scientology] or a few dozen [[2011 Israel protests|Israelis whining about gas prices]]) using the same approach as we do for the [[Battle of Stalingrad]].  That is an unnecessary injection of drama into otherwise quotidian events, and therefore not neutral coverage.  Plus there's no such notion in social science as a "civil conflict."  This template needs to be '''deleted'''. -- <b>[[User:Y|Y]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Y|not?]]</b> 01:25, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. The purpose of this template is not to show a civil conflict in the same light as [[Battle of Stalingrad]]; the purpose is to provide a less loaded alternative to [[Template:Infobox military conflict]] for non-military uses.  Btw, [[user:Y]], you're very biased or uninformed if you're saying the [[2011 Wisconsin protests|Wisconsin protests]] are merely a budget debate. Also, you believe these are a "quotidian" event?  So you're trying to claim having 75-100k protesters is a normal day?  If you need to claim that the mere use of the template is a "guaranteed violation of NPOV", then you need to say how.  You seem to only link to articles when they are at their most biased and not what they evolved to be currently.  I do agree that the template is a terrible fit for [[Scientology versus the Internet]], as that's hardly a civil conflict.  If you need a definition of a civil conflict, go look at one of the millions of [https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22civil+conflict%22&aq=f&aqi=g6g-m4&aql=&oq= google search results] or one of the [http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22civil+conflict%22&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart 20k scholarly articles on the subject].  The purpose of the template is to show that civil conflicts, for instance the uprising in [[2011 Bahraini protests|Bahrain]], is not one sided.  One of the optional features of the template, not that you have to use it, shows both sides of the conflict.  In an upraising, this would be the rebellion and the government forces.    The main purpose of an infobox is to provide the reader with a quick summary of the article.  The existing [[Template:Infobox military conflict]] contains too many loaded terms and [[Template:Infobox uprising]] fails to provide enough fields to adequately provide a summary of the article for the reader.  The purpose of this template is to span the area inclusively between protests to small armed rebellion and provide a useful template for the natural fluid progression that civil dispute takes between those stages.  ~ [[User:Justin Ormont|Justin Ormont]] ([[User talk:Justin Ormont|talk]]) 03:55, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

* Example uses:
::[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2011_Saudi_Arabian_protests&oldid=417029789 Saudi Arabian protests with] vs. [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2011_Saudi_Arabian_protests&oldid=416862785 Saudi Arabian protests without]
::[[2011 Somalian protests]], although I'm not sure of the notability of the article anyway.  Perhaps more news will flow.
::[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2011_Wisconsin_protests&oldid=416938075 Wisconsin Protests with] vs. [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2011_Wisconsin_protests&oldid=416346456 Wisconsin protests without]
::[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2011_Bahraini_protests&oldid=417043562 Bahraini protests with] vs. [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2011_Bahraini_protests&oldid=416975450 Bahraini protests without]
The history of why it was needed is here: [[Talk:2011_Wisconsin_protests#Military_conflict_template]].  People thought [[Template:Infobox military conflict]] was a poor fit as the article is not about a war.  People also objected to [[Template:Infobox uprising]] as it has connotations of an attempt to overthrow a government.  There was an unanswered call for an infobox which would be suitable for low to mid civil conflicts, and hence I made one. I'm very open to help from anyone willing to make the template as suitable for that purpose as possible as none other seem to exist.  ~ [[User:Justin Ormont|Justin Ormont]] ([[User talk:Justin Ormont|talk]]) 05:42, 4 March 2011 (UTC)