View source for Template talk:Infobox soap character 2

{{WikiProject Fictional characters|class=template}}
{{tfdend|date=18 April 2010|result=keep for now}}
{{tfdend|date=29 November 2010|result=no consensus}}
{{Archives|auto=no|
*[[/Archive 1|Discussion moved from Template talk:Infobox EastEnders character]]
*[[/Archive 2|Discussion moved from Template talk:Infobox EastEnders character 2]]
}}

==Family parameters==
Can we talk about which of the excessive family parameters should be removed? Personally I'd set the limit at 3 generations back max. I don't think there's any encyclopaedic value in ''great great aunts'' and the ilk. I might even go a bit further and say that while great grandparents are okay, great aunts and uncles might be pushing it. I'd also probably cut off at 'cousins' and lose all the once, twice, three times (a lady) removeds. As ever, open to other opinions though :) [[User talk:Frickative|<font face="Courier New">Frickative</font>]] 22:48, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

:It should definitely be cut down. When you say three generations, do you mean great grandparents? Very few characters interact with their great grandparents. May I suggest adding an "other relatives" parameter for when there's something significant, like [[Phil Mitchell]] and [[Jamie Mitchell]], or [[Nellie Ellis]] and [[Pauline Fowler]] (all of Nellie's relatives are second cousins, but not all of them important)? I also reckon we should remove relatives like grandparents if they were never in the show. Just keep the most important ones, basically. Any changes will take a lot of work, though, and Neighbours editors will have to do their own updates. <font color="green" face="Tahoma">[[User:AnemoneProjectors|anemoneprojectors]]</font> <font color="#BA0000" face="Tahoma">[[User talk:AnemoneProjectors#top|talk]]</font> 22:59, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

::That's a good point actually, great grandparents are probably unnecessary. I think "other relatives" is a really good idea, it's sort of a catch-all that does away with the need for a bunch of more extraneous parameters. And yeah, I agree on just keeping the most important ones. I'm always around to help get the boring work done :) [[User talk:Frickative|<font face="Courier New">Frickative</font>]] 23:16, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

:::I (as a Neighbours editor) think a "other relatives" parameter would be okay, we had it before in the old Soap Infoboxes and I don't mind going round and changing things over. - [[User:JuneGloom07|<font color="Purple" face="Arial">'''JuneGloom07'''</font>]]  [[User_Talk:JuneGloom07|<font color="Green" face="Times New Roman">Talk? </font>]] 23:26, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

:::(edit conflict) So if we got rid of the parameters for any great relative (and greater), and any cousin who isn't a first cousin not removed, then we can assess each infobox after that. Good idea so far? <font color="green" face="Tahoma">[[User:AnemoneProjectors|anemoneprojectors]]</font> <font color="#BA0000" face="Tahoma">[[User talk:AnemoneProjectors#top|talk]]</font> 23:29, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

::::Anemone that sounds a good idea :) --[[User:5 albert square|5 albert square]] ([[User talk:5 albert square|talk]]) 23:33, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

:::::Well, since it only affects EastEnders and Neighbours right now, and right now we're probably the four main editors of those soaps, shall I go ahead and remove those parameters as we are all in agreement? :) <font color="green" face="Tahoma">[[User:AnemoneProjectors|anemoneprojectors]]</font> <font color="#BA0000" face="Tahoma">[[User talk:AnemoneProjectors#top|talk]]</font> 23:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Please let me do it, at least to top James William Branning from being added! <font color="green" face="Tahoma">[[User:AnemoneProjectors|anemoneprojectors]]</font> <font color="#BA0000" face="Tahoma">[[User talk:AnemoneProjectors#top|talk]]</font> 15:11, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

:Missed this before, I think there's enough consensus here for you to go ahead and do it :) [[User talk:Frickative|<font face="Courier New">Frickative</font>]] 15:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
::{{done}}. Now we might need to clean up infoboxes to add "other relatives" if they're important. I did [[Nellie Ellis]] as an example. I guess removing the old fields from pages isn't a priority as they won't display anyway. <font color="green" face="Tahoma">[[User:AnemoneProjectors|anemoneprojectors]]</font> <font color="#BA0000" face="Tahoma">[[User talk:AnemoneProjectors#top|talk]]</font> 16:52, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

== Colours ==

I recently discovered this new template, it's brilliant by the way, and want to start using it in articles for Coronation Street. I'm just a bit bothered about the colouring, I like that with the soap character template, every soap can have it's own identity. Most notably EastEnders being blue, Corrie yellow and Emmerdale green. Anyone willing to change it? [[User:Ooh, Fruity|Ooh, Fruity]] ([[User talk:Ooh, Fruity|talk]]) 17:57, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
:{{done}}, just add <code>|colour=</code> or <code>|color=</code>. Blue is the default, so I don't need to change all the EastEnders and Neighbours pages. <font color="green" face="Tahoma">[[User:AnemoneProjectors|anemoneprojectors]]</font> <font color="#BA0000" face="Tahoma">[[User talk:AnemoneProjectors#top|talk]]</font> 21:01, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

== classification param ==

Does anyone have any idea what the classification param is for. There no mention in the docs about its usage. -- [[User:WOSlinker|WOSlinker]] ([[User talk:WOSlinker|talk]]) 12:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
:Yeah, it's used to say if a character is past or present and if they are a regular, recurring or guest character. It's usually linked to an article/section such as [[List of EastEnders characters#Recurring characters]] or [[List of past EastEnders characters#Last appeared in 2010]]. <font color="green" face="Tahoma">[[User:AnemoneProjectors|Anemone]]</font><font color="#BA0000" face="Tahoma">[[User talk:AnemoneProjectors#top|Projectors]]</font> 18:10, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
::Thanks, I've added it to the template docs. -- [[User:WOSlinker|WOSlinker]] ([[User talk:WOSlinker|talk]]) 21:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
:::Thanks, I didn't realise it had been missed off. I think it was added when I was taking a wikibreak. <font color="green" face="Tahoma">[[User:AnemoneProjectors|Anemone]]</font><font color="#BA0000" face="Tahoma">[[User talk:AnemoneProjectors#top|Projectors]]</font> 21:42, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

== Middle names ==

Hey. For a long time now the addition of middle names, often without a source happens for these fictional characters. I don't think they should be in the first line because it's such in-universe information. One character as a good example is [[Mercedes Fisher]] which makes her first line read .. "Mercedes Maria Theresa Immaculata Fisher (née McQueen; previously Owen) is a [[fictional character]]", Half of the time there is no source that these are true and the spelling too. Could it be included in the Alias section. Thinking of it as "the nation know the character as this" and Alias, "Inuniverse/the characters, the character it's self knows it's full middle name is this" sort of thing. IMO it's pointless info, thats never referenced IRL, perhaps once refered to at a wedding on-screen... or the other thing, a NEW field be introduced to house these. (If you don't think they should be included what so ever anywhere, please say.)[[User:Raintheone|'''<span style="color:blue;font-family:Modern">RAIN..the..ONE</span>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Raintheone|<font color="#AA22CC">'''HOTLINE'''</font>]]</sup> 13:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
:I completely agree, middle names shouldn't be in the lead. We should have a field in the infobox for the full name. [[User:Ooh, Fruity|<font color="Purple" face="Viner Hand ITC">'''Ooh, Fruity'''</font>]]  @ [[User_Talk:Ooh, Fruity|<font color="Lilac" face="Viner Hand ITC">Ooh, Chatty</font>]] 14:34, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
::When a character has been married four times, which name is their "full name"? <font color="green" face="Tahoma">[[User:AnemoneProjectors|Anemone]]</font><font color="#BA0000" face="Tahoma">[[User talk:AnemoneProjectors#top|Projectors]]</font> 21:35, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

==Romances==
This edit [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=List_of_EastEnders_characters_%282010%29&curid=24723903&diff=409209576&oldid=409202278] (which seems to be fine - opening "Family" does indeed show "Romances  Tanya Branning") and this previous edit [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AOliverrox&action=historysubmit&diff=405384094&oldid=405369277] on the first user's talk page led me to investigate a bit further here.  It appears that the template documentation doesn't say that the template accepts romances, but the template source '''does'''.  Hence, I haven't reverted the first edit, since it is both accurate and fine according to this current template, even though undocumented.  Thoughts anyone? [[User:Stephenb|Stephenb]] [[User talk:Stephenb|(Talk)]] 19:07, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
:It's WikiProject EastEnders that  doesn't want it in EastEnders articles. That's all. <font color="green" face="Tahoma">[[User:AnemoneProjectors|Anemone]]</font><font color="#BA0000" face="Tahoma">[[User talk:AnemoneProjectors#top|Projectors]]</font> 19:16, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
::Can you point me to that policy? If it has been previously discussed and agreed, it ought to be added to [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_EastEnders/Manual_of_style]] so that we can inform editors that add this otherwise valid field. Otherwise, it's more like [[WP:OWN]]... [[User:Stephenb|Stephenb]] [[User talk:Stephenb|(Talk)]] 19:19, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
:::This has now been added to the MoS [[User:Stephenb|Stephenb]] [[User talk:Stephenb|(Talk)]] 19:44, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
:::Neighbours and Hollyoaks don't want it either... [[User:Raintheone|'''<span style="color:red;font-family:Modern">RAIN*the*ONE</span>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Raintheone|<font color="#1020255">'''BAM'''</font>]]</sup> 20:49, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

== born/death ==

Infobox soap character + Infobox character don't use these fields. There was a big discussion in the past. I suggest that we remove them. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 13:30, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
:I suggest that we keep them, because characters in soaps have fixed dates of birth and death (other than when SORAS is applied, which is rare). –<font color="green" face="Tahoma">[[User:AnemoneProjectors|anemone]]</font><font color="#BA0000" face="Tahoma">[[User talk:AnemoneProjectors#top|projectors]]</font>– 17:49, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
:I agree with AP. I can understand those two templates not using dates, because in American soaps they change so often. It would seem silly having a birth date of 13 July 2002 with an image of a 25 year-old above it. But in the main this one is used by British and Australian soaps, who generally don't have that issue. It's also one of the main problems we faced before using this template, IPs inserting dates without an available field. I went round only a few months ago removing dates from the lead of several Corrie and Emmerdale articles. [[User:Ooh, Fruity|<font color="Purple" face="Viner Hand ITC">'''Ooh, Fruity'''</font>]]  @ [[User_Talk:Ooh, Fruity|<font color="Lilac" face="Viner Hand ITC">Ooh, Chatty</font>]] 19:44, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

== Romances and Cause of death? ==

It would seem that all the soap opera's using this infobox have opted out of using romances because it is trivial info and does not aid the general readers knowledge. I think that as EastEnders, Neighbours, Home and Away, Hollyoaks and Coronation Street do not use it, no one edits Emmerdale - it could be removed now. Another one I'd like discuss is Cause of death - what does that really do? These are fictional characters and it is never used in anycase.[[User:Raintheone|'''<span style="color:blue;font-family:Tahoma">Rain<span style="color:green;font-family:Tahoma">the</span>One</span>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Raintheone|<font color="green">'''BAM'''</font>]]</sup> 03:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
:Get rid of them! They are indeed useless. [[User:GSorby|<span style="color:blue;font-family:Verdana">'''GSorby''']] – [[User talk:GSorby|<font color="#FF0000"><b>''Ping!''</b></font></span>]] 09:14, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
::: I may be wrong, but I think Corrie still use the Romance field. I hate that, so get rid off it. Cause of death, I dont know but I feel that it could be usefull, but dont mind either way <font color="#007FFF" face="Orlando">[[User:MayhemMario|Mayhem]]</font><font color="#03C03C" face="Chinacat">[[User talk:MayhemMario#top|Mario]]</font> 09:43, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
::::Cause of death should definitely go—totally in-universe. Relationships is far from my favourite parameter, but it could be argued that a character's partners are generally more important to their storylines than nephews/nieces etc. On balance though, I think I'd still prefer to see it nixed. I think the best argument against it is just to imagine what [[Ken Barlow]] would look like if all his girlfriends were listed(!). [[User talk:Frickative|<font face="Courier New">Frickative</font>]] 10:19, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
: Imagine Whitneys and Ians relatonships! If you havent seen, the spanish version of Whitney, it made me chuckle :) <font color="#007FFF" face="Orlando">[[User:MayhemMario|Mayhem]]</font><font color="#03C03C" face="Chinacat">[[User talk:MayhemMario#top|Mario]]</font> 10:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
:: Cause/Reason could also go, because it isn't used. When I've seen it in use in the other template it just states where the character moved to, or if they are dead. I guess home already fills in that blank. But, I think it is another one that is totally in-universe.[[User:Raintheone|'''<span style="color:blue;font-family:Tahoma">Rain<span style="color:green;font-family:Tahoma">the</span>One</span>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Raintheone|<font color="green">'''BAM'''</font>]]</sup> 14:23, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
:::Instead of removing the fields from the template altogether, I think the soaps that don't use them should just opt out of using them. For example, EE opted out of having the home field, while other soaps/articles still use it and it's still part of the template. Does that make sense, my brain is going a bit slow today? - [[User:JuneGloom07|<font color="Purple" face="Arial">'''JuneGloom'''</font>]]  [[User_Talk:JuneGloom07|<font color="Green" face="Times New Roman">Talk</font>]] 14:30, 24 October 2011 (UTC)