View source for Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

<noinclude>{{pp-move-indef}}</noinclude>{{Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Header}}{{User:MiszaBot/config
|archiveheader = {{talk archive navigation}}
|maxarchivesize = 250K
|counter = 163
|minthreadstoarchive = 1
|algo = old(5d)
|archive = Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive %(counter)d
}} __NEWSECTIONLINK__ <!--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          NEW ENTRIES GO TO THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE AS A NEW SECTION
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-->

== Current [[Wikipedia:Reliable Sources/Noticeboard/Large scale clean-ups|large scale clean-up efforts]] ==

<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 08:05, 19 June 2022 (UTC) -->
===[[Wikipedia:Reliable Sources/Noticeboard/Large scale clean-ups/answersingenesis.com|Large scale clean-ups/answersingenesis.com]]===
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 08:05, 19 June 2022 (UTC) -->

===[[Wikipedia:Reliable Sources/Noticeboard/Large scale clean-ups/evolutionnews.org|Large scale clean-ups/evolutionnews.org]]===
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 08:05, 19 June 2022 (UTC) -->
===[[Wikipedia:Reliable Sources/Noticeboard/Large scale clean-ups/independentpoliticalreport.com|Large scale clean-ups/independentpoliticalreport.com]]===
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 08:05, 19 June 2022 (UTC) -->
===[[Wikipedia:Reliable Sources/Noticeboard/Large scale clean-ups/kavitakosh.org|Large scale clean-ups/kavitakosh.org]]===
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 08:05, 19 June 2022 (UTC) -->

== Is Astrodatabank reliable? ==

In 2011, there was a discussion whether [http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Main_Page Astro-Databank] (ADB) was a reliable source, see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_98#is_astro_databank_reliable.3F here].
I want to clarify (as an editor of ADB), that the project claims reliability for the '''birth data section''', i.e. birth date, birth time and location. Each entry is rated with the [http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Help:Rodden_Rating Rodden Rating system], and each entry contains precise source notes naming the source of the birth data information. Many entries carry the AA rating, which means that an original birth record or birth certificate was either in the hands of the editor, or quoted by another data collector of high reputation.

The astrological charts shown in ADB are reliably computed.

Other information found on an ADB page, for example biography text and category classifications reflects the personal knowledge and opinion of the respective author/editor. For newer entries, biography information is often copied from Wikipedia. These parts of ADB claim no special reliability.

==[[Brad DeLong]] blog RS?==
Bringing this here now because this has come up repeatedly at [[Robert P. Murphy]] as not RS for BLP. It was discussed at [[Talk:Robert_P._Murphy#Krugman:Misunderstanding_of_WP:BLOGS]] and at a [[Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive190#Robert_P._Murphy_re:_Paul_Krugman_quote|WP:BLPN]] where no involved editors responded. However, it was removed and seemed settled as DeLong's blog ''not being RS'', especially since better sources came up in the WP:BLPN discussion. A few hours after I [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Robert_P._Murphy&diff=590522259&oldid=590444057 got around to] adding those better sources to the talk page discussion and inferred intention to properly rewrite the section, an involved editor put back the rejected info [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Robert_P._Murphy&diff=590620273&oldid=590592326 at this diff].

In short Paul Krugman has mentioned Murphy explicitly a couple times in his NY Times blog ([http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/great-leaps-backward/ January 19, 2011] and  [http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/31/on-not-learning-continued/?_r=0 December 31, 2012]). However, the added [http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/30/is-our-austerians-learning/ Krugman blog entry] does ''not'' mention Murphy and says: ''Brad DeLong vents his spleen on one example, a guy who has been predicting double-digit inflation for years but remains absolutely committed to his framework all the same.'' There <s>are then two</s> is a long descriptions of DeLong's criticism of Murphy from two different DeLong blog entries. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Robert_P._Murphy&diff=590620273&oldid=590592326  See diff].) Seems like tortuous synthesis using a questionable source to me. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 18:59, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
::''Later note'': Just left  [[Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Using_.22expert.22_critical_SPS_blogs_in_BLPs|notice of this]] at WP:BLPN since obviously relevant. Should have done so immediately. (Note to self for future reference.) <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 18:04, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

: Brad DeLong is a UC Berkeley economist. He is RS as far as economics is concerned. Murphy's blog is used to establish all the facts about his predictions (which is permissible per WP:Aboutself); DeLong and Krugman are only used to assess those predictions (not establish facts). Krugman links to DeLong's discussion of Murphy, and it's absurd to suggest that he isn't talking about Murphy in the quoted text. [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 21:38, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
::The fact that Krugman himself says  "Brad DeLong vents his spleen" shows this is a personal blog rant and not a reliable source. Editors can read details [http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2012/12/when-will-robert-murphy-conclude-that-he-just-does-not-know-what-he-is-doing.html at the DeLong Blog entry]. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 22:31, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
:::Brad DeLong more than meets the recognized expert criteria of RS.  Experts are allowed to use informal language like that now and again. [[User:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">Gamaliel</font>]] <small>([[User talk:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">talk</font>]])</small> 22:37, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
::::DeLong is an expert on economics, writing on his blog. Reliable, with the caveat that this is talking about an ongoing disagreement within the field. The fact that Krugman mentions the post is a point in its favour, but not absolutely necessary. Krugman links to DeLong's blog post so it's clear that Murphy is the subject. Reliable but you will have to decide how much weight to give to it. [[User:Itsmejudith|Itsmejudith]] ([[User talk:Itsmejudith|talk]]) 22:43, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::It's personal blog.  We should never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert.  See [[WP:SPS]].  It's unreliable and a [[WP:BLPSPS|WP:BLP]] violation to boot.  [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 23:20, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::DeLong is a recognized expert in economics and his blog is a reliable and usable source, per policy, for his claims and views and ideas regarding the area of his expertise, economics, as long as they are properly identified as his claims, views, and ideas. [[User:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">Gamaliel</font>]] <small>([[User talk:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">talk</font>]])</small> 23:30, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Not if it's being used a third-party source about a living person.  This ''is'' official Wikipedia policy.  If you don't believe me, please read [[WP:SPS]] and [[WP:BLPSPS]].  [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 23:35, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::I am well aware of these policies that you've already linked to previously, but thanks for the reminder regarding what we're already discussing.  However, the claims in question aren't claims about a living person. They are claims about economic theories. [[User:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">Gamaliel</font>]] <small>([[User talk:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">talk</font>]])</small> 23:38, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

:::::::::Here's the diff in question.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Robert_P._Murphy&diff=590620273&oldid=590592326]
::::::::::"''University of California, Berkeley Professor of Economics J. {{highlight|Bradford DeLong sharply criticized Murphy's reaction}} to the bet. Citing data indicating that CPI never reached 3% ({{highlight|well short of the 10% Murphy}} needed to win the bet), {{highlight|DeLong criticized Murphy for 'refusing to rethink or modify any of his analytical' positions}} in spite of (what DeLong perceives to be) overwhelming evidence against them.''"
:::::::::This is a clear violation of two key content policies, [[WP:BLP]] and [[WP:V]].  It should be '''removed immediately and without waiting for discussion''' (emphasis NOT mine). [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 00:00, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::I might reword or remove material where DeLong criticizes Murphy and not his theories, but the core dispute is one of economics and economic theories.  I see no claims about Murphy himself, only claims regarding DeLong's opinions about matters in his area of expertise.  DeLong is a recognized expert (I won't bother quoting and highlighting the relevant RS policy regarding that, as I'm sure you are aware of it.) and the content is relevant and permissible under all those policies you've been citing, all the more so because this content is cited by a Nobel laureate in an unimpeachable RS, the ''New York Times''.  [[User:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">Gamaliel</font>]] <small>([[User talk:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">talk</font>]])</small> 00:06, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::It's completely inappropriate for a [[WP:BLP]].  Even if somehow this content were salvageable (completely removing all references to Murphy), at best it belongs in an article in article about DeLong.  For serious academic topics such as economics, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources.  There shouldn't be a need to resort to personal blogs. [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 00:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::There is no question that "For serious academic topics such as economics, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources."  But that's not the issue we have here.  This is an article about an economist who is obscure in professional terms but has been heavily promoted and published within the walled garden of Misenean think tanks so that he manages to become notable, but because of that most of the available sources will be not of the first tier of preferability.  An expert like DeLong, the author of numerous academic peer-reviewed publications, will not publish an academic peer-reviewed publication on views of a figure who is relatively obscure professionally, but will address them in his blog if they receive some media attention.  So we have to deal with the sources that we have, and it would be irresponsible of us to have an article about an obscure economist and ignore the viewpoint of a significant economist, likely the only expert, academic attention that the ideas of this obscure economist will likely ever receive.  Obviously, these sources should be used with caution, and any claims regarding Murphy himself should not be used.  But DeLong's professional, expert opinion about Murphy's economic ideas are not claims regarding Murphy himself. [[User:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">Gamaliel</font>]] <small>([[User talk:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">talk</font>]])</small> 00:35, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::No, policy is extremely clear: '''Never''' (emphasis NOT mine) use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.  I have no idea what part of "never" you find ambiguous, nor do I care.  The fact is that the [[WP:BURDEN]] of proof is on you to justify why these edits are acceptable.  You can either gain consensus for these edits or not.  And you are certainly entitled to disagree with official Wikipedia policies, but again, the onus is on you to get them changed.  [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 00:53, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::::I am aware of WP burden, but it is irrelevant here as this is a noticeboard regarding [[WP:RS]] and not a discussion about article consensus.  Wikipedia policy is quite clear, as is what I have been saying, and I'm not quite sure why you are misunderstanding it or are unwilling to discuss that beyond repeatedly invoking policies you well know we are both aware of. An opinion about economic matters is not a claim about a living individual, no matter how many times you invoke Wikipedia policy.  [[User:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">Gamaliel</font>]] <small>([[User talk:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">talk</font>]])</small> 04:15, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
There's no [[WP:RS]] issue here.  There's simply no such issue with this content or the sources.  Wrong place for any concerns about this. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  00:41, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
:I worry about the use of blogs. Usually blogs are "thinking out loud," tentative thoughts, or presentation of ideas for feedback. They may not be the final position of the author's viewpoint. Is there a general policy about blogs here on Wikipedia. I'm sure this has been discussed. Any pointers? [[User:Jason from nyc|Jason from nyc]] ([[User talk:Jason from nyc|talk]]) 00:45, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
::Yes, see [[WP:BLOGS]].  [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 01:11, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
:::[[WP:CONTEXTMATTERS]] is an important consideration when evaluating RS. So, is the personal blog simply commentary on economic questions or does it contain information about living third parties. If the commentary is confined to economic issues, then fine, use it. But once it, the blog, strays into a discussion about someone then BLP and SPS factors must be considered. "Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so." Is this info worth repeating? Assuming it is, who has done so elsewhere?  – [[User:Srich32977|S. Rich]] ([[User talk:Srich32977|talk]]) 01:16, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
::::But these are issues of [[WP:UNDUE]] content or BM's [[WP:NOTABILITY]], not RS board stuff. No reason to open this thread instead of using the article talk page. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  01:30, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::Editors are discussing the material and citing RS policy. Also, as Steeletrap is defending the blog on the basis of RS ("restoring RS coverage of inflation prediction...." in the edit summary & above), this noticeboard is an appropriate location. – [[User:Srich32977|S. Rich]] ([[User talk:Srich32977|talk]]) 01:40, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::Nah. If you believe these are not RS citations, please give specific words in the policy which support that view. {{ping|Steeletrap}} is just affirming what we all know.  It's like when you recite the [[Pledge of Allegiance]].  We all know it's the flag, but we affirm it.  [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  01:46, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Much of what I said above are direct quotes from official Wikipedia policies and guidelines.  It always makes for interesting (if not humorous) reading when somebody claims that direct quotes from Wikipedia policy are wrong or aren't Wikipedia policy.  In any case, you asked and you shall receive: "'' '''Never''' use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.''" (emphasis NOT mine).  Are we happy now? [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 02:13, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::: QfK, we don't use any blogs for sources about living people. Murphy himself establishes all the facts about his failed prediction (which he can, per WP:Aboutself). DeLong and Krugman offer their opinions on these facts, but don't add any new information about Murphy. It is frustrating how many times I have had to explain this to you over the last few months. [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 02:15, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::Specifico (and Steeletrap) seems to be saying that WP policy permits SPS commentary about third persons because the material "is just affirming what we all know." Is this what you mean? – [[User:Srich32977|S. Rich]] ([[User talk:Srich32977|talk]]) 02:18, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::''DeLong and Krugman offer their opinions on these facts, but don't add any new information about Murphy.''  Since there is lots of quoting going on, I thought I would quote your relevant summation of the issue, since there's a lot of [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT]] going on here. [[User:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">Gamaliel</font>]] <small>([[User talk:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">talk</font>]])</small> 04:15, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::Robert P. Murphy is not an economic theory, he's a person.  [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT]], indeed.  [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 13:27, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::The URL name, which may have been the original title of the blog entry, makes it clear it's ''not'' encyclopedic and is vs. BLP: ''http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2012/12/when-will-robert-murphy-conclude-that-he-just-does-not-know-what-he-is-doing.html''. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 14:26, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::I have to agree with those who say DeLong's blog can not be used in this context.  He is not just criticizing Murphy's theories... he is criticizing Murhpy himself.  What is interesting is that, if DeLong had published the same criticism of Murphy in an economic journal, or even in an op-ed piece in a major news paper... we could report on his criticism.  But, Policy is clear... we can not use his ''personal blog'' for such criticism.  
::::::::::::The Krugman blog is different... that is a ''professional'' blog, published under the auspices of the NY Times.  It is the on-line equivalent of an op-ed piece that is published in the dead-tree paper version of the Times. That is OK, as long as we attribute the opinion to Krugman. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 15:13, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
{{od}}It would seem that the policy on using the blog on a BLP as quoted above rules out the use of DeLong's blog, but not Krugman's commentary on DeLong's criticism of Murphy. I think this makes for a gap in the sourcing policy in relation to people such as Murphy that are of marginal notability in academia but promoted by advocacy affiliated publications--in this case, Libertarian, Miseian. </br>
The problem is that outside of the context of Krugman's NYT blog, there is not going to be any response from prominent authorities in the field because that just serves to add credibility to the dubious "predictions" and the like being advocated. And that means it is harder for Wikipedians to convey the actual state of affairs to the reader in such cases.</br>
I see that user [[User:Itsmejudith|Itsmejudith]] has voiced support for its reliability, which I am in favor of, so maybe this is a case where [[WP:IAR]] can be invoked. DeLong mentions "ideological beliefs" in that short post, which seems to be most relevant. --[[User:Ubikwit|<span style="text-shadow:black 0.09em 0.09em;class=texhtml"><font face="Papyrus">Ubikwit</font></span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Ubikwit| 連絡 ]]</sup><sub>[[Special:contributions/Ubikwit|<font color="#801818" face="Papyrus">見学/迷惑</font>]]</sub> 19:11, 19:18 24 January 2014 (UTC) 
 

===New version; Still Brad DeLong blog in BLP issue===
{{od}}'''RS version of Krugman views'''.  [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Robert_P._Murphy&diff=590831430&oldid=590620449 At this diff] I put in material from the two Krugman blog entries which actually mention Murphy by name. I only link to Murphy's replies at this point; only one of them is a personal blog entry and the only direct reply to the second Krugman blog entry. Such self-defensive personal blog entries usually are given a bit more slack under WP:RS. In the second Krugman entry [http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/31/on-not-learning-continued/?_r=0 he links to the whole DeLong-Murphy SPS blog debate] and people who -want to get into that level of nitty gritty nitpicking and name-calling among economists on their personal blogs can just follow Krugman's links. Thus the paragraph in question can be removed. I also [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Robert_P._Murphy&diff=590832834&oldid=590832607 here] put an Unreliable tag on the whole paragraph in question and noted in text that Krugman did NOT explicitly name Murphy in ''this'' blog entry, as he did specifically name him in the other two.<small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 16:05, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
:Good. WP:NEWSBLOG authored pieces are fine, even for BLPs. I also agree that attributing is essential in this case. [[User:Itsmejudith|Itsmejudith]] ([[User talk:Itsmejudith|talk]]) 17:13, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
::I've left a comment on the article talk page concerning this edit. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  17:14, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
:::[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Robert_P._Murphy&diff=590852967&oldid=590852845 At this final diff of editor's rewrite of my two paragraphs:] Now it becomes a matter of Murphy's self-published blog mentioned first, DeLong's self-published blog second, and then Krugman commenting on them, with a link to Murphy's reply last.  That's really building a POV argument misusing SPS in a BLP, IMHO.<small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 18:49, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

There was a request at wp:ver for outside input.  This looks like a later stage of a complex discussion, and there is no clear pointer to / statement of what text is in question.  Could somebody provide that? <b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 22:31, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
:The Steeletrap revert [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Robert_P._Murphy&diff=next&oldid=590875886 at this diff] is latest version and has same problem as above: Murphy's self-published blog mentioned first, DeLong's self-published blog second, and then Krugman commenting on them both. It looks to me like building a POV argument on SPS, which is not a proper use of sources. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 03:44, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
::{{ping|North8000}} has asked a simple and proper question.  Your response is unintelligible. Could you please re-read North's question and state a complete, self-contained, answer so that editors can comment on your concern?  Thanks. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  13:04, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
:::It may be that the ''is'' no answer because the text keeps changing, but maybe I can "gel"  one: '''The "Double-digit inflation predictions" section of the Murphy article as of the moment of my signature here.''' <b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 13:18, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Hello my North friend. You understand, I was asking {{ping|Carolmooredc}} for a response to your query?  I don't see a clear question in this entire thread. That's why these Noticeboard threads are such a sump.  They need to pose clear questions, otherwise all we get is crosstalk. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  13:52, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::Thanks, yes, and mostly agree. But I was viewing Carolmooredc as just someone who volunteered to try to answer my question. I'm also guessing that there ''is'' no single answer (because the text keeps changing) and thought that if I could propose something it might provide a concrete basis for a conversation.   And if not that, then at least something that I could respond to the request at wp:ver on.   Sincerely, <b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 16:23, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::Tweaks to the text not that relevant. ''What is relevant, as several editor have pointed out, is that self-published blogs cannot be used to diss BLPs.'' Krugman's WP:RS pointing out there's a nasty blog food fight does not make it WP:RS to quote the food fight, ''especially when Krugman clearly links to the food fight'', allowing those who care to go there. SPECIFICO may not understand policy and thus ends up muddying the waters, but the policy remains quite clear. [[Wikipedia:SPS#Self-published_sources]]: "'''Never''' use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer." (Empahsis in the original.)  <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 17:52, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

{{OD}}{{ping|North8000}} Yes, there are three sources involved, and the text keeps changing.  So, if may summarize what consensus appears to be heading towards, it's this:
*Brad DeLong blog[http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2012/12/when-will-robert-murphy-conclude-that-he-just-does-not-know-what-he-is-doing.html] - unreliable for the [[Robert P. Murphy]] article.  [[WP:SPS|Self-published sources]] can't be used as third-party sources about [[WP:BLP|living people]] even if the author is an expert. 
*Paul Krugman New York Times blog[http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/great-leaps-backward/][http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/31/on-not-learning-continued/?_r=0] - Reliable for Krugman's opinion.  Use in-text attribution.
*Robert P. Murphy writings[http://mises.org/daily/3155][http://consultingbyrpm.com/blog/2013/01/learning-from-brad-delong-and-paul-krugman.html] - Reliable for the [[Robert P. Murphy]] article with all the usual qualifications of [[WP:SPS]].
Assuming that this hasn't already been done, I suggest the editors of the article rewrite the text based on that, and then come back, tell us what you came up with, and we can take another look.  [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 18:25, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
:[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Robert_P._Murphy&diff=590831430&oldid=590620449 The diff that led this section off] does what you recommend, though it only mentions that Murphy replies and links to replies, something which can be worked on later. It was immediately changed to the version I've been complaining about that leads with SPS. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 18:34, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
::I have slightly reworked your material, Carol, after reverting the BLP-violating changes by Steeletrap. I agree with A Quest For Knowledge regarding the three sources: DeLong, Krugman and Murphy himself. DeLong cannot be used at all. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 19:08, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I think that one thing that is very clear is that the BLP policy clearly prohibits using the DeLong self-published blog as a source on Murphy, and so it also prohibits any text on Murphy that is dependent on that source.   <b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 21:08, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

:Binksternet: Excellent [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Robert_P._Murphy&diff=591022202&oldid=591014383 at this diff]. That's a properly written two paragraphs and if it had been written that way originally, within policy, there would never have been hours and hours of debate on it.
:North8000: <s>This</s> [Krugman] is well within what a high quality WP:RS can comment on from a self-published blog. Now if Krugman had written "DeLong thinks Murphy is a $&#*, $YOQQ, &^#&* and I agree" we'd probably leave it out. Unless ''other'' high quality sources decided to comment saying something like "Krugman and Delong are just so unprofessional...blah blah blah."  {{Smiley}} <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 21:21, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
::CarolmooreDC, are you referring to Krugman?  Because, just clarifying, I didn't comment on Krugman. Sincerely, <b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 21:30, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
:::OK, getting tired this PM. Specified Krugman above. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 21:37, 16 January 2014 (UTC)  
::There is also a potential pitfall when using primary sources (e.g. Murphy's blog on himself) because wikipedia editor selection from such can easily create certain impressions.  For example, the Wikipedia editor could select only wrong predictions by the BLP subject to cover and leave out correct predictions by the BLP subject.  I don't know whether or not something like that has occurred, but I'd suggest  at playing it safe with respect to the spirit of the primary sources restrictions.    <b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 21:18, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
:::Yes, that could be a problem and frankly I've been too exhausted from the other issue to see if that first paragraph reflects well. Also, there needs to be a few words of substantive reply from Murphy to Krugman, but something else haven't had energy to deal with yet. Still a work in progress! <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 21:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Consider the salience of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Robert_P._Murphy&diff=prev&oldid=591022202 facts reported]: Paul Krugman noted that DeLong criticized Murphy's reaction to his [Murphy's] bet about CPI. It sounds like Murphy's bet is a salient fact because it's received some attention from prominent credible experts, even if only in blogs. But describing the commentary on the commentary might be beyond the limits of salience. Reliability is not the whole issue; if these comments and metacomments were themselves important, encyclopedia-worthy events, they would probably get published in something more weighty than a blog. See [[WP:BALASPS]]. —[[User:BenKovitz|Ben Kovitz]] ([[User talk:BenKovitz|talk]]) 17:25, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::::DeLong's blog is posted on the website he uses to disseminate course information and curricula related information to his students, or so it would seem, so that would seem to make it marginally--at least--a "professional blog", though I'm not sure how that is defined here. 
::::There are two other salient points. 
::::First, as Krugman notes on his blog, the predictions of Murphy related to inflation are so contradictory (either to the facts or with respect to Bernake) that he even refuses to debate Murphy, because Krugman doesn't want to indirectly give credibility to the theory that DeLong appears to describe as being related to "ideological beliefs". The fact that Krugman cites DeLong in that context would definitely seem to make DeLong notable insofar as it supports Krugmans refusal to provide a platform for airing what DeLong characterizes as intransigent "analytical positions and ideological beliefs". ::::Second, the reason that criticism of Murphy is not made in more prominent publications is because it is not deemed to be worthy even of such a degree of attention, as testified to by these "blog" posts by two very prominent economists. Murphy is not in their league by any stretch of the imagination, and it is probably only because he is getting air time in other media outlets that they feel compelled to debunk his "predictions".--[[User:Ubikwit|<span style="text-shadow:black 0.09em 0.09em;class=texhtml"><font face="Papyrus">Ubikwit</font></span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Ubikwit| 連絡 ]]</sup><sub>[[Special:contributions/Ubikwit|<font color="#801818" face="Papyrus">見学/迷惑</font>]]</sub> 18:16, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Accordingly, I'd be inclined to see it as '''RS'''.--[[User:Ubikwit|<span style="text-shadow:black 0.09em 0.09em;class=texhtml"><font face="Papyrus">Ubikwit</font></span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Ubikwit| 連絡 ]]</sup><sub>[[Special:contributions/Ubikwit|<font color="#801818" face="Papyrus">見学/迷惑</font>]]</sub> 15:56, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::Everything that you write above is the kind of stretch that is the definition of "WP:SYNTH". Just to review we are talking about the (already) WP:Undue section [[Robert_P._Murphy#Double-digit_inflation_predictions]]. It starts with cherry picked Murphy quotes, has Krugman bash Murphy and mention DeLong, and does not even yet have a substantive reply from Murphy, though he has made them. So adding DeLong's WP:SPS would just exacerbate the BLP problems. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 18:13, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
::::: I continue to argue that the ban on SPS is clearly intended for statements of facts about a BLP, not (expert) ''opinions'' regarding the work of that BLP. The idea is to prevent us from spreading false or dubious information about a living person; the DeLong source does not do this, as it simply represents his opinion about Murphy's economic predictions. [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 21:19, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::That sounds like the correct reading of the intent of the policy, and I support the use of the statements from the DeLong blog as RS. That rule is not serving the purpose of building the encyclopedia, but as a loophole that is being used to allow an individual that basically has been characterized as an ideologue to fly under the radar of RS and NPOV, so to speak, and instead be presented as a mainstream scholar, without that important critique being aired in the article.

::::::It seems that the wording of the policy may place more stringent constraints on the use of blogs, though. Maybe you could propose some revisions to the text of that policy.

::::::There does not appear to be a definitive consensus that the blog is not RS and cannot be used, so maybe the Arbcom case will lead to some further opinions on this issue being voiced.--[[User:Ubikwit|<span style="text-shadow:black 0.09em 0.09em;class=texhtml"><font face="Papyrus">Ubikwit</font></span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Ubikwit| 連絡 ]]</sup><sub>[[Special:contributions/Ubikwit|<font color="#801818" face="Papyrus">見学/迷惑</font>]]</sub> 04:39, 25 January 2014; 06:51, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
{{od}}[[WP:Self-published sources]] reads: ''Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.'' If you want to propose those policy changes go to the policy page. But don't try to create new policy on WP:RSN. Thanks. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 00:19, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
:Note the specific language of SPS... "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources '''about living people'''"... It does ''not'' say "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources '''about the theories''' of a living person".  In other words... we should not use expert SPS sources for an opinion about the living person ''himself/herself'' (we should ''not'', for example, say: ''"In his blog, expert Fred says that Joe is an idiot <nowiki><cite Fred's blog></nowiki>"'')...  However, we CAN use expert SPS blogs to comment upon the expert's views about the living person's ''theories'' (we CAN say: "In his blog, expert Fred debunked Joe's theory, calling it idiotic<nowiki><cite Fred's blog></nowiki>"). The theory is not the person... and as long as we stick to commenting on the theory and not the person, expert SPS viewpoints are fine. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 14:35, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::That is a helpful and important distinction. How would you characterize the comments of DeLong's statement?<blockquote>''The most terrifying thing of all is that being completely, comprehensively, unmistakably, fundamentally, fatally, totally wrong has not led Robert Murphy to rethink or modify any of his analytical positions or ideological beliefs by even one iota.''</blockquote>
::Krugman mentions "...people who stick with their ideology..." and concludes that it represents a refusal to learn, but his columns are not SPS.--[[User:Ubikwit|<span style="text-shadow:black 0.09em 0.09em;class=texhtml"><font face="Papyrus">Ubikwit</font></span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Ubikwit| 連絡 ]]</sup><sub>[[Special:contributions/Ubikwit|<font color="#801818" face="Papyrus">見学/迷惑</font>]]</sub> 15:04, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::To  [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] who says about the SPS ban for BLPs" It does not say "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about ''the theories of'' a living person". That is not a valid distinction. What an SPS says about the ideas of a person, reflects directly on the person and ''is'' a statement about him/her. Whether a SPS says person A is racist or that Person A's ideas are racist are a distinction without merit. [[User:Iselilja|Iselilja]] ([[User talk:Iselilja|talk]]) 15:16, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
:::@Ubikwit... My inclination would be to say the quotes you give are comments about the person and not comments about the theories... and so would ''not'' be allowed per WP:SPS and WP:BLP. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 15:31, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::::@Blueboar... OK, thanks. Iselilja has a point, too. It seems that it will take some work to figure out how to deal with cases such as this, where there is a fringe<-->mainstream opposition and publicity (as well as politics) at stake. Since Krugman has basically covered what DeLong said and linked to his blog, that should suffice for the present. For this case, the policy has basically been sufficient, i.e., ''if a topic is worth writing about some RS will have published a statement on it''.--[[User:Ubikwit|<span style="text-shadow:black 0.09em 0.09em;class=texhtml"><font face="Papyrus">Ubikwit</font></span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Ubikwit| 連絡 ]]</sup><sub>[[Special:contributions/Ubikwit|<font color="#801818" face="Papyrus">見学/迷惑</font>]]</sub> 16:26, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::::: It makes perfect sense to separate factual assertions made on a SPS from statements of opinion. It also makes sense to avoid using SPS to cite personal attacks against a living person, e.g. "racist." However, the '''categorical''' ban on using expert SPS to evaluate the theories of living persons makes little sense, and thwarts the general intention underlying the SPS ban (namely, to prevent the spread of false, dubious or unverifiable information about a living person). {{signed|Steeletrap}}
{{od}}Note that during this discussion Steeletrap has been trying to change policy at [[Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Expert_SPS_ban_should_not_apply_to_opinion_statements]]. 
To me this means that Steeletrap and others have accepted that this SPS cannot be used in the article except in a limited form as specifically described by Krugman. (I'll have to check to see if recent edits overstep those bounds.) Given this RSN is almost two weeks old, can we considered it closed? Or do we need a formal closure? <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 18:07, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

==[[Harvard Political Review]] RS for economics book review?==
Better late than never getting to this issue on my long list, dealing with two stalled talk page discussions:
*At [[Walter Block]], editor removed [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Walter_Block&diff=587953225&oldid=587206840 at this diff], this text: "An article in the undergraduate magazine, ''[[Harvard Political Review]]'', found the book "refreshingly consistent in its efforts on behalf of sexual, pharmaceutical, ecological, financial and other scapegoats" but noted that the book was "likely to elicit mixed responses." (Ref:[[Harvard Political Review]], Volumes 4-7, 1976, [http://books.google.com/books?id=GTEfAQAAMAAJ&q=Review+Block+Defending+the+Undefendable&dq=Review+Block+Defending+the+Undefendable&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AZX6UZ_lIeH84AOO-oCwDg&ved=0CNoBEOgBMB0 p. 46].)  
:Edit summary reads: ''rmv review from undergraduate publication. (Harvard students are better than most, but they still have no degree apart from H.S. diploma, and are not qualified to review econ book)''
*At Block's book in question article, ''[[Defending the Undefendable]]'', [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Defending_the_Undefendable&diff=587953462&oldid=583382122 at this diff]], this text:  "An article in the undergraduate magazine the [[Harvard Political Review]], the official publication of the [[Harvard Institute of Politics]], found the book "refreshingly consistent in its efforts on behalf of sexual, pharmaceutical, ecological, financial and other scapegoats"." (Ref: [[Harvard Political Review]], Volumes 4-7, 1976, [http://books.google.com/books?id=GTEfAQAAMAAJ&q=Review+Block+Defending+the+Undefendable&dq=Review+Block+Defending+the+Undefendable&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AZX6UZ_lIeH84AOO-oCwDg&ved=0CNoBEOgBMB0 p. 46 - same as above]) 
:Edit summary reads: ''rmv article from undergraduate magazine. Undergraduates, whose maximal educational attainment is a high school diploma, are not qualified to review an economics book. (even if they are among the best undergraduates in U.S., as H enrollement would indicate)''
Thoughts as to whether the source is RS for these uses? Thanks. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 00:58, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

::If this book is worth mentioning as a work of economics or political theory, there must be some mention, review, or citations in RS references.  An undergraduate magazine and a cable news pundit don't seem commensurate with discussion of a book of presumably encyclopedic noteworthiness.  If RS discussion about the book cannot be found, I suggest creating a separate article for the book and listing it with a wikilink in the publications list of this article. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  01:51, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
::: An undergraduate magazine is not RS for economics, no matter how prestigious the university. (As a college student, Al Gore founded and was the chief editor of HPR; is/was he an RS for economic?) [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 04:37, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea if it is an RS or not, but I'm not sure the opinions of undergraduates are encyclopedic. For a 38 year old book of the significance claimed by the article, surely we can find reviews from more significant publications. [[User:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">Gamaliel</font>]] <small>([[User talk:Gamaliel|<font color="DarkGreen">talk</font>]])</small> 04:52, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
:I should have mentioned the only reason I put it in was because I frequently have seen reports, book reviews and even opinion pieces from less prestigious universities' student newspapers used in articles. And now I just remembered (duh) this has been discussed at WP:RSN with the reliability of the ''specific publication'' being the decisive factor. See [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_134#The_Harvard_Crimson_at_John_Harvard_statue|2012]][[Harvard Crimson]] discussion; [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_100#School_newspaper_reliable_and.2For_independent| 2010]] discussion, [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_46#Are_student-run_college_newspapers_considered_reliable_sources.3F| 2009]] general discussion, [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_24#Is_The_Daily_Bruin_a_reliable_source.3F_.28In_this_case.3F.29| 2008]] discussion (re: [[Daily Bruin]]);  [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_11#school_newspapers|another 2008]] general discussion.  Did I forget to mention that ''[[Harvard Political Review]]'' is the official publication of the [[Harvard Institute of Politics]]? (Created as a memorial to JFK, one may remember.) It seems like a one sentence book review on a popular book on economics is well within their capability and the opposition to them are just as baseless as the opposition to inclusion of the Hayek material below. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 18:34, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
::OK, the article on the Review says it's "official", the article on the Institute says it's "home to and publishes" the Review. Those two claims aren't synonymous ("home to" is a good meaningless Wikipedia phrase). Maybe we should cite a source for the Review's exact relationship to the Institute. Anyway, it's still a student magazine, edited by students. I wouldn't consider its articles notable unless that particular article has been cited by reliable sources, or, possibly, if that particular writer has become notable later. Otherwise, if not notable, not worth quoting as an opinion on a book. That's my view. [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 20:47, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
::: I don't think we're using book reviews from the ''Crimson''. The ''Crimson'' and HPR might be reliable sources for the intellectual and social goings-on of Harvard U. But they are not RS for economics. Their authors may be Harvard students, but they are also teenagers and barely-twenties whose highest educational attainment is a HS diploma. Not even close to RS. [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 21:54, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
::::If one bothers to do a [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=500&offset=0&redirs=1&profile=default&search=thecrimson.com Wikipedia search for theharvardcrimson.com] one finds at least 500 uses of it as a reference. Of course, it's not the official publication of the [[Harvard Institute of Politics]] as is '[[Harvard Political Review]]''. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 17:03, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::Discussion of the ''Harvard Crimson'' is off-topic for the current discussion.  If you disagree, please explain how you think it relates to the issue we are discussing here.  Thanks. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  17:10, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::Please note that past WP:RSN discussions are relevant and above I note that as one of several examples of student publications being RS. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 17:44, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::{{ping|Carolmooredc}} How does the fact that a different student publication has been considered RS for other content relate to the current issue?  Are there specific similarities which support a comparison or equivalence in this case?  Thanks. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  18:08, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
===Hayek info RS for same two articles?===
{{Ping|User:Gamaliel}} 's question, and a look at the talk page, reminded me that I got too busy to deal with opposition to including two WP:RS about Nobel Prize winner [[Freidrich Hayek]]'s comments' on Block's book. Rather than start a separate thread, might as well ask here.
* SPECIFICO's Removal of Hayek's positive quote [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Defending_the_Undefendable&diff=588292620&oldid=588253377 here] because it might be against BLP and with his recommendation I take it to RSN. A better reference is the "Commentary by F.A. Hayek" [http://books.google.com/books?id=0-apY116bpYC&pg=PT24#v=onepage&q&f=false p 24] in the 2012 edition of ''[[Defending the Undefendable]] published by Laissez-Faire Books. 
* In John Gray's, ''Hayek on Liberty'' (Ed 3, Taylor & Francis, 2002), Gray writes in a discussion of “Hayek’s conception of the natural selection of competing social rules” the following: ''In some areas, recognition of the vital functions of these scapegoat occupations and practices may prompt demands for the revision of law and of customary morality so as to accord them a greater measure of legitimacy and social approval. It is in this spirit that Mandeville himself wrote, and in which Hayek endorsed a recent Mandevillean work by the economist Walter Block, “Defending the Undefendable”, in which the social functions of such figures as the pimp, scab and the crooked cop are vigorously expounded.”''  (Note: the google page is no longer available but full context still searchable in an earlier version at Amazon.com)
:SPECIFICO objected [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Walter_Block&diff=prev&oldid=588419045 at this diff] that we can't write about "Hayek's state of mind"?!?<br>
So does any uninvolved editor see a problem with using both those Hayek-related materials in both articles? Thanks. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 03:20, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
::Hayek's view is clearly notable and it would be weird to leave it out. John Gray likewise, with the adjective Mandevillean and the description of the book's content, even if he is only noting Hayek's opinion. [[User:Itsmejudith|Itsmejudith]] ([[User talk:Itsmejudith|talk]]) 08:28, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
:::Agreed, both views are notable and worth including. [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 09:33, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
::::What's the source of the Commentary? -- never mind that it's attributed to Hayek.  Is it well-sourced and the context clear? It's an undated unsourced insertion of what appears to be promotional content. Was it a collegial letter to Block's publisher?  A deathbed confession?  [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  21:23, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
::::: Looks to be RS to me. I don't think it is particularly notable or clear, however. The meaning of "endorse" is vague; does he endorse Block's economics? His ethics? His writing style? There may also be verification issues. All in all, this doesnt' belong on RSN. [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 21:52, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::To address only the RS issue, Gray uses as his ref for "endorsed" an undated Fleet Press' version of the book; Fleet press was the original publisher and can be assumed to have fact checked that Hayek wrote the letter. [http://mises.org/document/3490 This description] of the 2008 Ludwig von Mises Institute edition of the book does note that Hayek had written "the author". All of this can be added to the references if necessary. It also lists a number of other quotes of Praise including by [[Robert Nozick]] and [[Tom G. Palmer]]; the original sources of some of them surely can be tracked down. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 01:30, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::You seem to be painting a picture of solicited endorsements sourced from a number of "likely suspects" by the publisher, eager to promote the book.  Now that you've provided the context I think it's hard to claim this is encyclopedia-worthy content. What is "Fleet Press?" [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  01:53, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::: Personal letters (or emails) from a prominent economist are not reliable sources. If they were, anyone could create a Wikipedia page for herself if she compiled enough friendly or flattering emails, Facebook messages or chat room flirtations, from prominent academics. Doc. Block was a young buck back then; maybe Hayek was just trying to be friendly or supportive, in what he thought was private personal correspondence? Also, since the book was published in 1976, TGP (whose wiki says he was born in 1956) was presumably a *teenager* (or barely 20), without a college degree, when he wrote that review. [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 03:28, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::A few of the above comments by Specifico and Steeletrap were worth making, but the majority of them are infantile. Gray's book is a reliable source. The fact that Gray cites Hayek is, in itself, sufficient for us, but it's better to be able to add a quote from the primary source, which is the text of Block's book, including the full Hayek endorsement, as published originally by Fleet Press and reprinted by Laissez-Faire. The status of these publishers has nothing to do with it. The material is notable, and Gray, as RS, makes it usable. So let's use it. [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 13:07, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::[Added later:] Unless I missed something, neither at [[Walter Block]] nor at [[Defending the Undefendable]] do we have any quotations from people who criticized this book. We surely need that too. I've just found the review by [[D. J. Enright]], ''Times Literary Supplement'', July 02, 1976, p. 817. Some good quotes there. [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 13:43, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::: I have said the Gray source is RS. I have not said that the reviews from Mises.org -- which includes Hayek's personal letter to Block -- are RS. We can say something like: "Gray notes Hayek endorsed Block's book." We cannot quote the excerpt from the alleged personal letter posted on Mises.org. [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 18:35, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::{{ping|Andrew Dalby}} I've only made two comments above in this thread.  If you would please indicate which one(s) you're calling  "infantile" and why, I'd be pleased to respond to your concern.  Otherwise, why bother with pointless denigration?  Thanks. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  19:29, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::OK, Specifico, I heard the ping. I'll reply on your talk page. [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 12:49, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:Since we have a reliable secondary source for Hayek's opinion (Gray), there is no reason why we cannot expand on on it by using the primary source (Hayek's letter.)  Private letters become acceptable sources once they are published, at least for the opinions expressed in them and a secondary source has commented on them.  [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 07:28, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:: Good evening, TFD. I have argued that we can use the Gray source. The problem is that the Gray source only briefly mentions Hayek's view of Block's book, saying he "endorsed" it. The personal correspondence is published on Mises.org, on a promotional page for the book. That is what is being cited, not the Gray book; and that is what I'm calling unreliable. [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 07:46, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::: Hayek's "endorsement" is not  on "a promotional page for the book" but is part of the book published by Fleet Publishing Corporation, on p. xii.  (That has already been pointed out above.)  [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 09:02, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Exactly. I agree that it's not a good idea to use the Mises Institute page, but, since Gray, as RS, mentions this material, it's quite OK to quote it as it appears in the published editions of the Block book. [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 12:49, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::::: TFD my old friend, you misunderstand me. The "endorsed" thing is in Gray's book, and can be used. (anything from that book clearly can.)) However, what was previously being cited was not the Gray book, but a personal correspondence not cited therein, which appears on a promotional page for the book near the "checkout" button on Mises.org. bookstore). That was my sole objection. [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 15:04, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::Then I think I misunderstood you also. Sorry. This stuff isn't easy. [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 15:28, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::To answer a few points: New ref welcome. Using positive quotes about Austrian economists is not verboten on Wikipedia. Note that SPECIFICO wanted to know origin of Hayek's comments and I gave it to him, writing "All of this can be added to the references if necessary." I meant to prove where comments came from and am indifferent as to whether that is mentioned in the article. However, both the Gray comment and the Hayek quote belong. Feel free to search if anyone else has commented on what Hayek wrote. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 16:25, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Unless I am mistaken, we still do not know the origin of the Hayek text on the Mises website, but consensus appears to be not to use that source. If you are saying that you have RS documentation as to the origin of the Hayek text, please provide it. While I don't see anybody objecting to the Gray statement, I also do not see anybody other than yourself advocating the use of the Mises Institute/Hayek. Thanks. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  16:49, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::I see four editors saying the quote itself is useable. If you don't believe Mises.org that it was a letter from Hayek, fine, we don't have to use that claim as a source. But if a fabricated quote from Hayek was used in the foreward to the Fleet Street editions of the book, I'm sure Gray or others would have discovered that fact by now. (Feel free to search for any such evidence.) And Gray does use the Fleet Street book as his source for Hayek's statement. Please stop denying what other editors can see obviously is true. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 17:59, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::{{ping|Carolmooredc}} No more personal remarks, please. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  18:04, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::{{ping|SPECIFICO}} No more personal remarks, please. – [[User:Srich32977|S. Rich]] ([[User talk:Srich32977|talk]]) 18:34, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::{{ping|srich32977}} No more personal remarks, please.  – [[User:Srich32977|S. Rich]] ([[User talk:Srich32977|talk]]) 18:34, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
{{outdent}}Hayek's comments are shown on p. xii of the Fleet Press original edition of the book.  Presumably Hayek read the book before it was published.  Fleet Press was a reputable publisher of non-fiction that was later absorbed into Macmillan, which is a reputable publisher of non-fiction.  Therefore the comments are reliably sourced.  Gray used the comments on p. xii as a source.  He references the Fleet edition of the book, although he does not mention the page number.  Gray's book is also rs, and was published by Routledge, an academic publisher.  The fact that Hayek's comments also appear "on a promotional page for the book near the "checkout" button on Mises.org. bookstore", or the fact that the LvMI republished the book, does not mean that the comments published in the Fleet Press edition are no longer rs.  [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 19:13, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:Hello TFD. I'm curious how one traces the history of these defunct small presses.  The best I could locate was [https://openlibrary.org/publishers/Fleet_Press_Corp.#sort=date_published this web page].  Is there a source which you've generally found helpful in vetting prospective references? Thanks. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  19:26, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::That's an irrelevant question (though I, too, would be happy to know the answer!), because Gray's reference to it makes the material usable to us. [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 19:45, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

::I typed "fleet press corporation" into Google books search.[https://www.google.com/#q=%22fleet+press+corporation%22&tbm=bks]  It shows that the books published appear to be reasonable non-fiction, and that they have been cited in thousands of other books, most of which also appear to be reasonable non-fiction.  Some of the cites have "The Macmillan Company" in brackets.  [[The Macmillan Company|Macmillan]] of course is a major reputable publisher of non-fiction.  Also, the fact that Gray cites Hayek's remarks provides evidence that they are genuine.  [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 20:25, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
*I agree that Hayek's view is notable and that it should be brought to the Block biography. The Gray book is reliable as it is from a respected imprint. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 22:12, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::This seems to be the consensus, provided that the article states no more than what Gray stated in the RS reference. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  22:45, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::: The consensus is clear. We can and should use Gray, but nothing else. [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 22:49, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::::There is a clear consensus that Gray's book is reliable secondary source for what Hayek said.  Most editors think that we can also use the page in Block's book, published by Fleet Press Corporation and used as a source in Gray's book, as a primary source for what Hayek wrote.  [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 00:47, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::Exactly. [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 11:48, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::Ditto. So I can put in the following:
:::::::{{Quotation|[[John N. Gray]] writes that [[Friedrich Hayek]] "endorsed" Block's book.<ref>[[John N. Gray]], ''Hayek on Liberty,'' Edition 3, revised, Taylor & Francis, 2002, p. 43, ISBN 0203004019 Quote: "Hayek endorsed a recent Mandevillean work by the economist Walter Block, ''Defending the Undefendable'', ... "</ref> Hayek wrote in an introductory commentary in the book that looking through it "made me feel that I was once more exposed to the shock therapy by which, more than fifty years ago, the late [[Ludwig von Mises]] converted me to a consistent free market position. … Some may find it too strong a medicine, but it will still do them good even if they hate it. A real understanding of economics demands that one disabuses oneself of many dear prejudices and illusions. Popular fallacies in economics frequently express themselves in unfounded prejudices against other occupations, and showing the falsity of these stereotypes you are doing a real services, although you will not make yourself more popular with the majority."<ref>"Commentary by F.A. von Hayek, Nobel Laureate" in Walter Block, ''Defending the Undefendable'', Fleet Press, (1976 or 1978 edition?), p. xii, ISBN? </ref>}}
::::::Then we can spend the next six months deciding what to actually quote from Hayek's commentary...  {{smiley|cry}} <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 22:31, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Oh, gosh, Carol, I don't think you can, not at that length. This appears to me to be a self-standing text by Hayek, subject to copyright, very short, and you can't go beyond fair use. I'd say about a third of the number of words you are currently quoting, possibly paraphrasing some of the rest. If others think I'm wrong here, I'm sure they'll say so! [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 22:57, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::I believe Mr. Dalby is correct.  We can write: "John N. Gray writes that Friedrich Hayek endorsed Block's book." Full stop. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  00:12, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Thanks, Specifico. But indeed we can additionally footnote Hayek's text via Google Books  -- obviously a help to our readers, since we have found the text, and Hayek is (as this and other discussions have shown) notable and of keen interest -- and we can quote it; but briefly. I think I'd go as far as this (shortened from Carol's text above), just for example:
:::::::::{{Quotation|[[John N. Gray]] writes that [[Friedrich Hayek]] "endorsed" Block's book.<ref>[[John N. Gray]], ''Hayek on Liberty,'' Edition 3, revised, Taylor & Francis, 2002, p. 43, ISBN 0203004019 Quote: "Hayek endorsed a recent Mandevillean work by the economist Walter Block, ''Defending the Undefendable'', ... "</ref> In this prefatory comment Hayek observes that looking through the book made him feel that he was again "exposed to the shock therapy by which ... the late [[Ludwig von Mises]] converted me to a consistent free market position. … Some may find it too strong a medicine, but it will still do them good even if they hate it," explaining that an understanding of economics requires the rejection of illusions and prejudices, and that it was a real service to have demonstrated "the falsity of these stereotypes".'<ref>"Commentary by F.A. von Hayek, Nobel Laureate" in Walter Block, ''Defending the Undefendable'', Fleet Press, (1976 or 1978 edition?), p. xii, ISBN? </ref>}}
:::::::::Any use? [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 12:54, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::I assumed it would be cut somehow. I was just providing the full quote that originally had been in text so people could decide what wanted to use - or could look to the original for other quotes. As long as the main thrust is preserved, I'm happy. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 14:55, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::I think that only first sentence should be in the article, without the scare quotes. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  15:28, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::But why? Hayek's notable, as you yourself have done so much to show, Specifico. Why not quote a bit of the opinion that Gray referred to? It's good stuff, too, whether one agrees or not. "Some may find it too strong a medicine, but it will still do them good even if they hate it!" Worth a few seconds of our readers' time. Give it to them!  [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 17:05, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::Here's an alternative suggestion: The article could state, "Philosopher John N. Gray noted that Friedrich Hayek endorsed Block's book, ''Defending the Undefendable'', in which the social functions of such figures as the pimp, scab and the crooked cop are vigorously expounded."  That gives a bit more substance to the Gray's mention of Block's book without drawing on speculation or OR characterization of the Hayek text. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  18:51, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::Where's the speculation? Where's the OR characterisation? And why squeeze out Hayek? You surely agree he's a more notable figure than Gray! Let's have his words! [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 19:01, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::I have not read Gray's book. Does he identify that promotional text we've seen from Hayek as being the basis for the sentence we're discussing?  The more interesting and informative content actually would be that Gray calls Block's book "Mandevillean". [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  19:19, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::::That's good too, though (I would hazard) more obscure to more readers than the Hayek sentence I quoted :) But, fine. Let's take both.
::::::::::::::Yes, for Hayek's endorsement Gray cites the Fleet Press edition of the Block book. That's all set out above (but a long, long way above). [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 19:24, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::I see not reason to mention Gray in the text.  That makes it read Gray said that Hayek said.  Why not just say what Hayek said.  [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 07:34, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::I see exactly what you mean, TFD. But this thing has a tendency to go round in circles, and the first circle began with doubts that Hayek's comment is RS. It is in any case a primary source (for Hayek's opinion). Gray, being undoubtedly RS, gives us the lead to quote the primary source that he interprets for us. That's the way I see it, anyway. [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 09:33, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::Exactly. Using secondary and primary sources to reinforce each other is standard. Let's not find an excuse to knock how Hayek quote 3 weeks after this thread gets archived or whatever. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 09:58, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
{{od}}I think the fact that Gray mentions Hayek's endorsement is actually more significant than the "endorsement" itself.  In the endorsement, which appears to be a solicited promotional statement, Hayek does not even say that he has read the book.  He did however choose to lend his name to the promotion of it so I think that Gray's text and his characterization of Block's book as Mandevillean are good WP content. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  15:20, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
:In other words leave out any evidence of praise and write Gray so it sounds like criticism of Block as fringe. <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 17:29, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
::Specifico herself hasn't said that she's read the thread above -- a clue, surely, that she doesn't intend her last comment to be taken seriously :)
::But I agree with Specifico that we want the the Gray mention, and that in using the Hayek endorsement we need to be selective: just quote a short passage that is a straight response to the book, in clear and trenchant words. Easy to do. [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 19:18, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
:::I'm lost here.  Hayek wrote admiringly of Mandeville in other contexts.  Gray presumably knew that.  Any comparison of Block, a living and little-known author, to the enduring legacy of Mandeville would seem to be a significant homage to Block's work. Thus for a scholar of Gray's credentials to mention Block and Mandeville in the same breath seems like a substantial validation of Block's efforts.  Hayek's endorsement on the other hand, other than the fact that he was willing to associate his name with Blocks, seems pro-forma and of dubious substance.  And Hayek does not appear (to my reading) to have read the book, but just to have noted its content. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  20:20, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Frankly, now that it's agreed both sources are RS, at this point proposals for wording should be made at ''[[Defending the Undefendable]]'' article and then some version inserted into Block as warranted. 
::::Also, is SPECIFICO now calling "herself" a "her"? I see that [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:SPECIFICO&oldid=565052207 as of today]  SPECIFICO's User page still sports <nowiki>{{User:UBX/pronoun:comfort}}</nowiki> so I'll go by that until the User page changes. (Don't want another brouhaha about use of pronouns regarding editors who haven't been real clear on their user pages making it hard to keep track of what's official and what's mere speculation.) <small>'''[[User:Carolmooredc|Carolmooredc]]  ([[User talk:Carolmooredc|Talkie-Talkie]])</small>''' 20:28, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
::::(ec to SPECIFICO)If you "know" whether someone has read a book, "you are a better man than I am ..."  [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 20:29, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::Did I say that?  Since neither of us knows whether he read it, we should focus on what we do know, namely, that he endorsed Block's book. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']]  20:58, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

== http://guerillabookworm.com ==

Dear source experts:  An article ([[David Reddish]]) that I was looking at (rather dubiously) had a source entry which led to the above web site. The source was supposed to be a book review.  When I clicked on it, the web page asked me to install software to see the review.  I didn't want to do that.  Has anyone heard of this web site, and if so is it a repository of book reviews?  &mdash;[[User:Anne Delong|Anne Delong]] ([[User talk:Anne Delong|talk]]) 21:31, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
:no evidence of professional level review or notability of the site itself. The film project has a nice assessment of what to use [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Films/Style_guidelines#Critical_response]]. this site fails. -- [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;;;">TRPoD <small>aka The Red Pen of Doom</small></span>]] 15:44, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks for the tip. &mdash;[[User:Anne Delong|Anne Delong]] ([[User talk:Anne Delong|talk]]) 21:39, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

==  Simon Digby ==

The main dispute is on [[Persecution of Hindus]], where a user claims that "historians dispute it" while citing a single writer(not historian) named [[Simon_Digby_(oriental_scholar)|Simon Digby]], and that he who disputed the "80 million" figure. So he should be added. While this figure remains largely accepted by number of historians.

And he keeps edit warring about it, without providing any secondary source that refer to his "dispute". Considering that here, Digby dispute(comment at most) is being used as secondary, so he must be recognized by other reliable source, before it is being recognized here? [[User:Bladesmulti|Bladesmulti]] ([[User talk:Bladesmulti|talk]]) 15:56, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
:Lal's book and Digby's review are probably both safely RS. If we can find other reviews of Lal's book, that would be good too.
:There are a couple of corrections to be made. (1) Lal's book doesn't (so far as I can see) say that 80 million Hindus were killed under Muslim rule. He estimates that the population of India decreased by 75 million during the period (1000-1500). They are not the same thing at all. (2) Digby's review throws general doubt on Lal's estimates and the methods Lal used, but he doesn't question this particular figure (see second paragraph on p. 177). (3) Our footnote 3 gives some text in quote marks, not by Lal (because they mention Lal), and with no quoted source. Those words need to be sourced or removed.
:Given these observations, I don't think Lal's claim or Digby's doubts are relevant enough to go in the introductory medieval paragraph, where they are now. Instead, somewhere lower down in the text, I'd mention Lal's estimate (but as an estimate of decrease in population, not an estimate of deaths of one religious community) and I'd also mention Digby's review because it makes us question Lal's methods, and that's quite a reasonable thing to do.
:I can't read Lal's book, only the review. If anyone else can read Lal's book, so much the better. But if he really does give this 80 million figure for "Hindus killed", I'll eat my hat :) [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 16:48, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::Well [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]], you should also clear that if it is appropriate to even mention Digby or not(since he is not mentioned by any other sources for this so called "dispute"), and also that if he is historian(since he is just a writer). There are number of reliable sources, that regarded these 80 million figure to be decreased by population during those 500 years, Such as [http://books.google.com/books?id=EVnK3q48dL0C&pg=PA33&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false], [http://books.google.com/books?id=0If5TjIuPR0C&pg=PA457&dq=%2280+million%Even]. [[User:Bladesmulti|Bladesmulti]] ([[User talk:Bladesmulti|talk]]) 17:07, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::As per [[Negationism in India: Concealing the Record of Islam]], it has been cited, that the estimates by K.S. Lal refers to the 80 million death of Hindus though.[http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/books/negaind/ch2.htm]. [[User:Bladesmulti|Bladesmulti]] ([[User talk:Bladesmulti|talk]]) 17:37, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
But i somewhat agree with:-

# Digby is not disputing the figures.
# Figures might be related to whole Indian population, not hindus just.

Now that makes such whole content to be unrelated. Right? [[User:Bladesmulti|Bladesmulti]] ([[User talk:Bladesmulti|talk]]) 17:50, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Digby is questioning the figures and methods of Lal in a peer reviewed journal, and it is notable enough to mention his critique of Lal's methods since he's a British Scholar (and not a mere "writer" - last time I checked only scholars got their pieces published in academic journals). Given that you've stated before numerous times that "Digby does not exist" and that it is a "fabricated source" what you seem to be implying is that Digby warrants no mention and is unworthy of inclusion. You are trying to represent that as a world view, "80 million Hindus died" when Lal doesn't even claim that. Digby's critique is in a peer reviewed journal. The usual nutty sources seem to take Lal's words out of context (Koenrad isn't even reliable since he's right wing, and represents a biased viewpoint). I suspect that you're one of those Hindu fanatics who can't seem to able to distinguish fact from fiction given how hard you're trying to negate Digby's position (witness: "'' [is it] appropriate to even mention Digby or not(since he is not mentioned by any other sources for this so called "dispute""''). [[User:StuffandTruth|StuffandTruth]] ([[User talk:StuffandTruth|talk]]) 18:16, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

::Here is the reference that is proof that Digby is a historian from the Indian Express. [http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/after-a-lifetime-loving-india-historian-digby-breathes-his-last-in-delhi/566286/0]. [[User:StuffandTruth|StuffandTruth]] ([[User talk:StuffandTruth|talk]]) 18:24, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
:::It is a re-print. Obviously you fabricate the source since it is neither secondary, nor it is disputing the figures. Sweta Dutta who wrote the article is not a reliable source. Digby is not a historian, I bet you regard everyone as historian who you think to be supporting your isolated view. But interestingly not everyone is historian. He is only a writer. [[User:Bladesmulti|Bladesmulti]] ([[User talk:Bladesmulti|talk]]) 18:30, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

:::Blade, Andrew's already answering your question on whether or not Digby should be included: '''"I'd also mention Digby's review because it makes us question Lal's methods, and that's quite a reasonable thing to do."''' Why are you asking him again? [[User:StuffandTruth|StuffandTruth]] ([[User talk:StuffandTruth|talk]]) 18:30, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

::Who the fuck cares if it's a "reprint" - it's '''held by and published by''' Cambridge University. Again you're laughably claiming it is "fabricated"? How is someone this stupid? '''For fuck's sake it's a secondary source since it's published in a <u>peer</u> reviewed article'''. After giving you a source that says Digby is a historian (again it's <u>[http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/after-a-lifetime-loving-india-historian-digby-breathes-his-last-in-delhi/566286/0 here]</u> since you're too blind to see), you STILL ignore it. I'm reporting this to an administrator. You're behaviour is getting very disruptive.

#[http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/after-a-lifetime-loving-india-historian-digby-breathes-his-last-in-delhi/566286/0 Obviously a historian] (Indian Express Obituary).
#Digby, Simon (1975). [http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayJournal?jid=BSO Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies]. University of London. [http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=3802960&fulltextType=BR&fileId=S0041977X0004739X Vol. 38, No. 1]. ([http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayIssue?decade=1970&jid=BSO&volumeId=38&issueId=01&iid=3802576 1975]), pp. [http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=3802960&fulltextType=BR&fileId=S0041977X0004739X 176]–[http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=3802960&next=true&jid=BSO&volumeId=38&issueId=01 177]. 
:::[[User:StuffandTruth|StuffandTruth]] ([[User talk:StuffandTruth|talk]]) 18:37, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::::[[Wikipedia:RS#Scholarship|Care should be taken with journals that exist mainly to promote a particular point of view. A claim of peer review is not an indication that the journal is respected, or that any meaningful peer review occurs. Journals that are not peer reviewed by the wider academic community should not be considered reliable, except to show the views of the groups represented by those journals.]]
::::IndianExpress, or even Guardian, Dailymail can't be accepted as Reliable sources, it depends upon who has wrote the article. You haven't proved how Digby is refuting the figure either. Like it is discussed above. [[User:Bladesmulti|Bladesmulti]] ([[User talk:Bladesmulti|talk]]) 18:49, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

:::::::Read it again Blade: "Journals that are <u>not peer reviewed by the wider academic community should not be considered reliable</u>" - Cambridge journals <u>are widely respected widely peer reviewed</u>. Also are you seriously claiming the Guardian and Daily Mail are the same? One is a respected paper the other is a tabloid. And is most certainly RS. [[User:StuffandTruth|StuffandTruth]] ([[User talk:StuffandTruth|talk]]) 19:03, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
{{od}}
Depends upon the author. It is no more a point whether he is historian or Not. Bigger point is whether he dispute the figure, and even more that if they are related to the hindu population. [[User:Bladesmulti|Bladesmulti]] ([[User talk:Bladesmulti|talk]]) 19:11, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
:::He's disputing the methods of Lal's figure and hence the number. His conclusions are overall that it isn't reliable (he says the sources are so poor that they are "wilful if not fantastic"). [[User:StuffandTruth|StuffandTruth]] ([[User talk:StuffandTruth|talk]]) 19:13, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::::So you are saying that he "questions" its reliability? But not "disputes", because if he dispute, he might be presenting other figure. But here he is regarding them to be not too accurate. [[User:Bladesmulti|Bladesmulti]] ([[User talk:Bladesmulti|talk]]) 19:16, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::I've asked Stuffandtruth to moderate his language. Bladesmulti, you need to also avoid commenting on other editors. You talk about 'fabricating' sources. What do you think "fabricated" means? It's beyond me why you would think [[Simon Digby (oriental scholar)]] wasn't a historian.  He is a reliable source and he is disputing the figures. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 19:31, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
:I'm going to wait for Andrew and Doug to respond Blade. The latter is an administrator I contacted regarding your disruptive edits (who has responded above). I want to hear from them since all I'm getting is circular logic from you about the reliability of Simon Digby's work even though he's an Oxbridge academic and historian. [[User:StuffandTruth|StuffandTruth]] ([[User talk:StuffandTruth|talk]]) 19:32, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::I think it can be solved. I consider that the line, at the moment "Which is also disputed by historians", it should be "Which is is also disputed by scholar", and then "Digby". Because we don't have multiple historians here to dispute such claim. [[User:Bladesmulti|Bladesmulti]] ([[User talk:Bladesmulti|talk]]) 19:37, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
:That's certainly what you've not been doing. Doug asked you a question. And frankly I'm asking again. Why are you disputing the sources without merit and making bizarre claims? [[User:StuffandTruth|StuffandTruth]] ([[User talk:StuffandTruth|talk]]) 19:43, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::I can refer to some edits, where journals were usually rejected. Thus i thought that if it is notable enough to even add, since it is not backed by secondary source(other than wikipedia), in terms of authorship. Nothing else. [[User:Bladesmulti|Bladesmulti]] ([[User talk:Bladesmulti|talk]]) 19:47, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
:::(Sigh) "since it is not backed by secondary source"...again with the circular logic...please. This is painful. It is a secondary source. It's in a journal. It's peer reviewed. It's published. It's on the Cambridge website...it's been cited many, many times. Digby's piece is a part of that widely circulating journal... [[User:StuffandTruth|StuffandTruth]] ([[User talk:StuffandTruth|talk]]) 19:51, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Yes, but i was only explaining my actual view, since you asked. Nothing else. [[User:Bladesmulti|Bladesmulti]] ([[User talk:Bladesmulti|talk]]) 20:04, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::Bladesmulti and then StuffandTruth were banned yesterday for edit-warring. Concerns have also been raise (at ANI) about problems with Bladesmulti's editing in general. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 05:42, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Quite a lot to read :) I will just give my answer to Bladesmulti's question, far above, "Now that makes such whole content to be unrelated. Right?" This is a good question: if Lal is talking generally about "decline in population", is that relevant to [[Persecution of Hindus]]? My opinion, for what it's worth, is that it may be sufficiently relevant as background material to be mentioned in the body of the article. If Lal is right, something in the period of Muslim domination was seriously bad for the wellbeing of the general population of India (the majority of whom were Hindus). To what extent that decline was linked to persecution, it would then be for other sources to say.

I repeat that that's just an opinion. If the consensus of those writing the article was that this material isn't relevant after all, I wouldn't argue. [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 14:28, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[Brad Steiger]] book ==

*{{Cite book  | last = Steiger  | first = Brad & Sherry |authorlink = Brad Steiger  | title = Conspiracies and Secret Societies  | publisher = Visible Ink Press  | date = 15 January 2006  | page = 95  | isbn = 1-57859-174-0 | quote=There are legitimate reasons to dispense chemical in this manner: ''crop dusting'' ... ''cloud seeding'' ... ''firefighting'' ... and ''smoke trails'' in air shows ... The chemtrails that have caused great concern are none of these ...}}

* [[Chemtrail conspiracy theory]]

* used to support:
:* a definition of chemtrails that does't fit the mainstream definition
:* the presence of chentrails in the 1970s. Other sources says that they were started by two guys in 1990s. Steiger does not report the 1990s origin, despite being well documented in the internet [http://www.csicop.org/sb/show/chemtrail_conspiracy Skeptical Inquirer], [http://contrailscience.com/a-brief-history-of-chemtrails/ skeptical blog].

This book reads very sloppy, and it contains sensationalistic sentences that are not substantiated later. 

He contradicts himself, first he says that sulphur dioxide was used in contrails, then says that some scientists ''proposed'' using it. He also makes scary comments about how this substance causes acid rain (note the use of "causes" instead of "would cause")

He also says that a certain laboratory "began shooting huge amounts of porous-walled glass microspheres into the stratosphere." but it only proposed doing so in one paper[https://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-alex-jones-pj-watson-geoengineering-our-environment-under-attack.304/]. It's obvious he didn't check any of the original sources.

Note the negative reviews:  

* a Fortean review or other of his books: "My own sixth sense, gut instinct says to avoid this book. There’s some gold here, but there’s also an awful lot of sensational idiocy." [http://www.forteantimes.com/reviews/books/5647/real_monsters_gruesome_critters_and_beasts_from_the_dark_side.html]

* a scholar book on Pagan studies: ""These accounts were generally sensationalistic and conflated Paganism with the New Age, "the occult," or Satanism. In the United States, such books were produced by Hans Holzer, Susan Roberts, and Brad Steiger."[http://books.google.es/books?id=C3HjVG3n38EC&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=brad+steiger+sensationalistic&source=bl&ots=b3w_SB9OKv&sig=N39wIBj8NvJEL27N-JT3qWIIXg0&hl=es&sa=X&ei=qDblUvCNF6Tt0gWKzYHgBw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=brad%20steiger%20sensationalistic&f=false] p. 204

* a University of Kentucky press book: "[a book] compiled by ufologist Hayden Hewes and paranormal pulp writer Brad Steiger"[http://books.google.es/books?id=wWAP2cs0lB0C&pg=PA84&dq=brad+steiger&hl=es&sa=X&ei=uXTlUrv4EuWX7Qau5IGADw&ved=0CGUQ6AEwCDha#v=onepage&q=steiger&f=false] ("Pulp writers" wrote great amounts of low-quality material in very little time) 
		 
* a [[Macmillan Publishers]] book: "And what about the paperback quickie, ''Judy Garland'', by Brad Steiger, rushed out in 1969, the year of her death? (In his extended section on 'Judy and the Occult,' neatly divided into subsections on astrology, graphology, and numerology, Mr. Steiger reveals that when young Grances Gumm changes her name to Judy Garland, 'she took on the vibration of the number nine.')"[http://books.google.es/books?id=SOm1919lt_IC&pg=PA112&dq=brad+steiger&hl=es&sa=X&ei=PHTlUpjWOuvQ7AbVm4CQBg&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAzhQ#v=onepage&q=brad%20steiger&f=false] p. 112

This source doesn't look reliable at all. --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 16:42, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

*  (Involved editor) Probably reliable for Brad Steiger's view - whether they're worthy of inclusion is another question ... [[User:Alexbrn|Alexbrn]] <sup>[[User talk:Alexbrn|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Alexbrn|contribs]]|[[User:Alexbrn#Conflict_of_interest_declaration|COI]]</sup> 16:48, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

* (Involved editor) It does not look like it would be useful here.  Though, as noted for the views of Mr. Steiger, sure, but not for the Chemtrail article.  [[User:Dbrodbeck|Dbrodbeck]] ([[User talk:Dbrodbeck|talk]]) 16:53, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

* (Involved editor) I suggest checking this editor's use of sources in general. I suspect there is some OR going on here. Note that he has subpages with lots of content. Check the sources used there. He is currently blocked (again) and I have had to ban him from my talk page for his aggressive behavior. Here are convenience links:

:* {{userlinks|Johnvr4}}
:* {{iplinks|71.47.124.243}}

: [[User:BullRangifer|Brangifer]] ([[User talk:BullRangifer|talk]]) 17:50, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

::He's using his sandboxes  to develop the article deleted at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Operation Red Hat]] (and perhaps more material). [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 21:53, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

::: Wow! Reading that AfD is very enlightening. So this isn't the first time he has been aggressive, showed ownership tendencies, and attacked other editors. He has a very negative learning curve, and blocks don't even help, so I see a siteban looming on the horizon. -- [[User:BullRangifer|Brangifer]] ([[User talk:BullRangifer|talk]]) 23:55, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

::::Yes [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] I'm redeveloping that entry based open the legitimate concerns of other editors and new sources.  In your reading, please feel free to identify or tag areas of concern but do not otherwise modify it.  The current version is in my sandbox. It still has a lot of work to go ahead of it.  

::::Context and perspective. To be clear, I did not propose to use this source.  It was already in use on the entry and I simply chose not to abuse it or let other editors continue to.  The summary of edits and reversion to the entry shows that the consensus was to (unintentionally) abuse and repeatedly restore and sloppily verify proper sourcing as was the obvious case here. These very editors refused to take responsibility for verifying material they restored. It was their responsibility to verify especially since I challenged and disputed reverting changes. The result of the dispute was an edit war with these editors which to my discredit, I unfortunately did not avoid. To his credit [[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] was knowledgeable enough to bring this decision up and resolve this issue appropriately. Kudos to him. I'm sort of new to WP and the proper procedures are is still a bit of a mystery to me. I'm newly disabled, and memory (and learning) is affected, hence the slow learning curve. A nerve issue in my elbows (and probably some packet loss) causes even worse typing. 

::::I don't care about this source or have an opinion on its merit.  I only want the topic I'm working on defined and neutrally approached.   Perhaps the legitimacy of this source in defining the phenomena or various nutty beliefs would vindicate my prior edits concerning the source.  The source concerns are described here:[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory#Brad_Steiger.27s_book].  I welcome any decision, either way.[[User:Johnvr4|Johnvr4]] ([[User talk:Johnvr4|talk]]) 18:39, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

== Associated Press article being used in [[Shooting of Trayvon Martin]] ==

There is a dispute[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Photographs_used_in_early_media_reports_on_the_case] over whether statements from an [http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Old-Photos-May-Have-Shaped-Public-Reaction-In-Trayvon-Martin-Case-145223895.html Associated Press (AP) article] are reliable for a section of the [[Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Portrayals_of_Martin_and_Zimmerman|Shooting of Trayvon Martin]] article that discusses media portrayals of Martin in the aftermath of the shooting. The AP article, "Old Photos May Have Shaped Public Reaction In Trayvon Martin Case", states as fact that an undated photograph of Martin was several years out of date at the time of the shooting, and incorporates quotes from journalism experts commenting on that premise, such as:{{pre2|Both photos are a few years old and no longer entirely accurate. Yet they may have helped shape initial perceptions of the deadly shooting.</br>

"When you have such a lopsided visual comparison, it just stands to reason that people would rush to judgment," said Kenny Irby, who teaches visual journalism at the Poynter Institute, a journalism think tank in St. Petersburg, Fla.}}
An editor feels that because the AP article was published by a large number of news outlets, it should be regarded as a reliable source on which to base the Wikipedia article section.
However, Martin's family have said that the photo had been taken only 6 months before the shooting, which occurred when he was 17.
(Incidentally, although the point has not been a part of the editors' discussion, the AP article also states that a photo the media used to depict Zimmerman, who had shot Martin, shows Zimmerman wearing a jail uniform with an orange collar, but subsequent reporting[http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/george-zimmermans-myspace-page-from-2005-uncovered/nN3Zp/] suggests that that photo actually showed Zimmerman in an orange polo shirt, not a jail uniform.)

The text in the Wikipedia article under discussion is:
{{pre2|'''Portrayals of Martin and Zimmerman'''

The contrast in the photos of Martin and of Zimmerman which were most widely used in early media reports of the shooting may have influenced initial public perceptions of the case.[340][341] The most commonly published image of Martin, provided to media by his family,[342] showed a smiling baby-faced teen.[340][Note 13] The only image of Zimmerman initially available to news media was a 7-year-old police booking photograph released by law enforcement officials after the shooting.[341] The image showed a heavy-set Zimmerman who appeared to be unhappy or angry,[341] with an imposing stare.[340] The AP quoted academic Kenny Irby on the expected effect, "When you have such a lopsided visual comparison, it just stands to reason that people would rush to judgment," and another academic, Betsi Grabe, as saying that journalists will present stories as a struggle between good and evil "[i]f the ingredients are there."[340]}}
(citation #340 is the AP article)

There is a disagreement among editors over several questions related to this AP article:</br>
(a) Should a section of the Wikipedia article that discusses media portrayals of Martin in the aftermath of the shooting be based on this AP article?</br>
(b) Should quotations in the article from the journalism experts be included in the Wikipedia article section as above?</br>
(c) Is the AP article's reliability on the issue of the photo's age so high that the mention of the disagreement should be placed in a footnote? [[User:Dezastru|Dezastru]] ([[User talk:Dezastru|talk]]) 21:01, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

:It is rs, but you should try to get a more detailed analysis for a source.  Also, the wording does not appear neutral.  Often news reporters will ask a few experts what they think, and they may not be representative of what most experts would say.  I would just explain what each of the experts say.  Some experts for example may have thought that the ethnicity of the individuals might have affected popular reaction. I agree that media portrayal should be mentioned.  Whether or not Martin's photograph was current however does not seem that important, since it is the reaction to the picture that is being discussed.  [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 03:21, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:: Use of this AP article, as shown here, has a serious problem regarding balance. The AP article quotes two media experts who disagree about the possibility the photos will have an effect; one says the photos could be important. Another (Gordon Coonfield) says they may have little-to-no effect. In contrast, the WP article only mentions the views of two media experts with similar views. This misrepresents how the source presented it. The WP article is giving the arguments of a single side in something presented in the source as undecided. Also, the errors in that early report go beyond just the age of a photo. There are multiple errors of fact throughout the first half of that piece, errors probably owing to recentism. It could be used as a reliable source regarding evidence of ''what people thought at the time'' but it shouldn't be used as a reliable source of 'what reliable sources think about the topic now. I would avoid this source in favor of more neutral and accurate reliable sources. [[User:Elaqueate|<span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ <span style="color:#000000">E L A Q U E A T E</span></span>]] 17:13, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

== Triple–machine-translated article as source for views on independent movie.  ==

1. Source – An article by professional writer Asher Schechter, published in the notable, Hebrew-language ''TheMarker'', translated by three online services: 
* http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=he&to=en&a=http://www.themarker.com/markerweek/1.1620957
* http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.themarker.com%2Fmarkerweek%2F1.1620957&hl=en&langpair=auto%7Cen&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8
* http://www.freetranslation.com/en/translation#!/505037985fe01ac20407b806/505037985fe01ac20407b7fb/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.themarker.com%2Fmarkerweek%2F1.1620957

2. Wikipedia Article: [[Zeitgeist:_The_Movie#Critical_response]]

3. Content: 
For a year and a half, this Wikipedia article has referenced the Schecter article above. When I came to our article this month, the Schechter article was summarized as:  
<blockquote>''TheMarker'' characterized the evidence presented by Joseph in the movie as, for the most part, incomplete at best, and based on speculation at worst. ''TheMarker'' also wrote: "After all, the film was an art project, not intended as a coherent socio-economic analysis but to serve Joseph's creativity." ''TheMarker'' wrote that Joseph received severe criticism, and summarized the criticism by ''The Irish Times'' [which also appears within the same Wikipedia, a few paragraphs above]</blockquote>
This negative viewpoint seemed amiss, considering the title of Schecter's article and the reiteration of content appearing previously in our article. After reviewing the translations, I removed the direct quotations (not a good idea for translations), and I adjusted our summary to be more reflective of the source's overall opinion, as evidenced by what commonalities the three translations share: 
<blockquote>Writing for ''TheMarker'', Asher Schechter praised the film's viral popularity and foreshadowing to the Occupy movement, while admitting its evidence to be poor. Schechter excused its deficiencies in light of the movie originally being created as an art film, and he called its reach as an activist effort a success.</blockquote>
My rewrite attempts were deleted repeatedly, and I'm concerned this was done not for a question of verifiability, but rather for an editor's bias against the movie. I'm posting here following a suggestion on our article's talk-page from a third party (who preferred not to give weight to either side). I'm hoping to get additional, neutral opinions on referencing Schechter's general opinion of the movie within our article based on the commonalities in the three machine-translations above. Thank you, <span style="background-color:#bbcc99;">[[User:Startswithj|startswithj]] ([[User talk:Startswithj|talk]])</span> 23:45, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
:If you post at [[WP:RDL|the language reference desk]] you will find people who can read the original Hebrew and help you summarise it correctly. [[User:Itsmejudith|Itsmejudith]] ([[User talk:Itsmejudith|talk]]) 15:37, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

== Lion vs Tiger Consenses =Reliable sources ==
{{la|Tiger versus lion}}

Bigcat82 is constantly removing refferences and sources to the lion vs tiger subject and "claiming" that they are --un-reliable--, have no sources, are fictional ect...

I am here to show the proof that they are reliable and not what he insinuated"

This is not a fictional book, but a consenses by a Historian with a masters degree:

[[Master's degree]] In History from The Vermont College of [[Norwich University]]<ref>http://www.kenspiro.com/</ref> Ken spiro comments, "The [[Romans]] went all over the empire to find wild, exotic beast to astonish the crowds. Next, the [[Arena]] was lowered to feature combat between them, Romans cheered as [[Lions]] tore apart [[Tigers]], tigers went up against [[Bears]], [[Leopards]] against [[Wolves]]. It goes without saying that the Romans had never heard of animal rights"<ref>{{cite book |url=http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=Romans+cheered+as+lions+tore+apart+tigers&btnG= |title=WorldPerfect: The Jewish Impact on Civilization |author=Ken Spiro |year=2002 |isbn=978-0-415-10453-1}}</ref>

-  Maters degree info: http://www.kenspiro.com
-  Direct link to the quota: http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=Romans+cheered+as+lions+tore+apart+tigers&btnG=
-  Year: 2002
-  Author: Ken spiro
-  Book title: WorldPerfect: The Jewish Impact on Civilization
-  isbn: 978-0-415-10453-1
: The source is relating the ''spectacle'' of the event, not the merits of one animal against another ''per se.'' I don't see how this can be regarded as a reliable source in this context. [[User:Flat Out|'''<font color="blue">Flat Out</font>]] [[User talk:Flat Out|<font color="red"><span class="smallcaps" style="font-variant:small-caps;">'''''let's discuss it'''''</span></font>]] 03:08, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

In fact, his sources are the ones that are not reliable:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_versus_lion

His refferences main source comes from a Zoo keeper, not a historian with a degree in history:
http://jackjacksonj.webs.com/ewtwet.jpg

Random people who are not qualified (no scholar knowledge) specifically in history via knowledgable to historical records and are basing it off hear say, should not be replacing things that have Masters degrees.


Also:

"Another mosaic in the house of the Faun, now badly damaged, showed a lion standing over a prostrate tiger."<ref>http://books.google.com/books?id=vt9JwsNcKzwC&pg=PA148&dq=house+of+faun+lion+tiger+prostrate&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5QDnUuK0PM6JogSW6YDgBw&ved=0CBAQ6AEwAA |author=Jerome Jordan Pollitt |year=1986 |isbn=9780521276726}</ref>

-  Direct link to the quota: http://books.google.com/books?id=vt9JwsNcKzwC&pg=PA148&dq=house+of+faun+lion+tiger+prostrate&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5QDnUuK0PM6JogSW6YDgBw&ved=0CBAQ6AEwAA
-  Year: 1986
-  Author: Jerome Jordon Pollitt
-  Book title: Art in the Hellenistic Age
-  isbn: 9780521276726

As the original refferences was subjectively used without mentioning the lion standing over a prostrate tiger.

So I await a consenses in removing things that is unreliable and placing a block on Bigcat82's on his subjective, cherrying picking and constant erasing of reliable content for the Lion vs Tiger subject as he has repeatively undid a more reliable vision numerous times:
https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Tiger_versus_lion&diff=prev&oldid=591817160

As I just showed its proof of reliability. [[User:Golden Prime|Golden Prime]] ([[User talk:Golden Prime|talk]]) 01:43, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

:A Master's degree isn't very high on the academic reputation scale. The problem with the sources which you are challenging is that they are many, variate, written by people regarded as authorities (e.g. published by Cambridge University Press or upon the websites of other reputable universities). Even if some of them would be unreliable, this cannot hold for all of them. [[User:Tgeorgescu|Tgeorgescu]] ([[User talk:Tgeorgescu|talk]]) 02:06, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

::And that guy isn't an animal keeper. [[User:Tgeorgescu|Tgeorgescu]] ([[User talk:Tgeorgescu|talk]]) 02:09, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

And on and on the fairess wheel goes, first I put Clyde beatty in, a person who had directly observed them fighting as stated in his book observation upon 40 years experince (as I provided) and has worked with 1,000 tigers and lions, has accumilated atleast 25 tigers that were killed his lions documented by over 10 credible sources, of news paper and book archives, who he is the Guiness records book holders working with both lion and tiger simultaneously (note I say simultaneously) none of whats in place have any verification working with both and specifically seen them fight, (or else prove it, prove those sources have seen fights, not just assuming) backed by via news articles and books, yet it gets removed in conjunction by a absolutely no credentials (History) level of science, then when I put in a scholar masters degree authority, the zoo keeper who is less credible and reliable then both of the contradictive exclusions, its then dis-regarded yet again, just because a person owns a dog, doesnt mean he knows the history, origin, import/export, leinage, blood-line ect....the same way a zoo keeper doesnt know the history nor cites any specifics of the romans, there were over 50 emperors, in over 5 centurys, where are the records then to support the zoo keeper? There should be thousands if you make a claim such as large as an empire, not just 1, yet I have over 10 Historians, Theologians, Archaeologist that all supports the lion was the usual victor in rome, along with 8 historical artifacts of origination of rome/italy...its non-challangeable when you only have one staged account and one opinion from a nobody (No credentials or tangible proof).

So what exactly are you trying to say? That he (Bigcat82) can post whatever he wants and I and anyone to oppse it will have the data removed? All the revisions are being undone to his bias subjective vision, yet no clarification is being emited, up-held or even verified, the bottom line is, why is Bigcat82 removing things off thats just as reliable and acedemcially even more so then his, and...only...keeping his? Dont you think then both should be heard, used, provided and or be known to the public?

His revision is so bias its ridiculous, whats next, you are gonna tell me that there are only 2 sub-speices of tigers as Bigcat82 has as current? lol 

I'm not chllangeing anything, I pointing out the facts, published? What are you talking about, 10 people quoting one incident (Martials Poem/epigram), doesent make many, its still counts as only one, just because 100 newspaper stations publish muhamid ali kocked out george foremen, doesnt mean ali knockd out foreman 100 times, again, there is only one credible and reliable source of the romans/rome/italy historical basis that mentions a tiger defeating a lion, which is Martial even the people who studyed that epigram stated it was un-clear f it was staged, since in that same event awoman killed a lion too, really? A average lady killed a 500lb killing machine...lol, thats it...on the other hand from ancient to modern records we have:

*  Historian Ken Spiro (M.A In History from The Vermont College of Norwich University)
*  Historian Margaret George (University with a B.A. and Stanford University with an M.A) 
*  Historian and Archaeologist Martin seyers (Ph.D of Classical Archaeology, Egyptologym at Vienna University)
*  Professor Thomas Gray (Historian at Cambridge University.)
*  Professor Adolph Hausrath theologian (Privatdozent P.D German universities)
*  Theologian Edward beecher (Graduated in Yale college in 1822)
*  Charles Scribner's Sons (American writing company dates back to 1821)
*  Museums and Their Development (Psychology Press, 1656)
*  Native to the holy roman empire, Johan Wenzel Peter (Painting/Root artifact)
*  Native to the holy roman empire Cicero Epigram/remnent
*  Native to the holy roman empire, Carl Borromäus Andreas Ruthart (Painting/Root artifact)
*  Native to rome Pietro Aquila (Royal Emperyium engraving/Root artifact)
*  Visitor to rome Théodore Géricaul: (Painting/Root artifact)
*  Visitor to rome HECHT Joezef Polish: (Painting/root artifact)
*  Visitor to rome Richard westall: (Engraving/root artifact)
*  Roman Royal Athena (Belt buckle/Root artifact)
*  Mosiac in the house of faun (Pompeii A.D)
*  Mosaic in the house of Caecilius Jucundus (Pompei A.D)
*  Two Marbel stone peices (Circa 1700 & the other 1920)
*  Greek statue (Artifact)
*  Phaedrus
*  Plato's dialogues
*  Latin writer/historian Aesop 
*  Eye Witness: Mr. Bolton (veorna 1834)
*  Eye witness: Trainer Kose (Turin italy)
*  Eye witness: Rudolf kludsky to several occaisons (Turin italy)

All solid proof of anecdoctal records the same as martials poem showing lions usually won, to actual artifacts depicting lions the victor via mosaics, engravings, etches, antiques, ect ect, historians and thelogian consenses all with Ph.d and Masters degrees, actual staged accounts in other amphitheaters by eye witnesses where the lion won, just so happens all the books, newspaper articles ect all quote the same man as their refference, Marcus Valerius Martialis, and it is widely accepted as the epigram is merely just a poem, there are literaly hundreds of poems written of lions defeating tigers...so lets not go there. 

Thats only records in rome/italy, their are (on hand) records from India, Germany, British, chinese, japanese, persians, ect ect, all suporting the lion was the usual winner.

The historic value trumps anything that supports the theory tigers won basically 30x fold, this is consistant with modern experts via animal trainers who observed them fighting, it is in consistantcy with science professions such as Biologist, Ecologist and Natralits, all the credible data indicates the lion is the superior animal in combat, all nationalitys and cultures has the lion the superior animal either in healdry or actual accounts, the same way the on record the lion has killed the tiger more than vice versa. 

This subject with out the life experinces and memoirs of Clyde beatty, Bert nelson, terrell Jacobs, Dave hoover and more has no value, no substance, and without those authoritys this subject should be classified as medicore and un-educated, in fact ignorant.

So I say again, I am not against things that support the tiger, I just want both sides as truthful as possible and both sides to be heard, not erasing things because someone is incredibily subjective and bias... is that so much to ask? [[User:Golden Prime|Golden Prime]] ([[User talk:Golden Prime|talk]]) 07:53, 28 January 2014 (UTC) [[User:Golden Prime|Golden Prime]] ([[User talk:Golden Prime|talk]]) 08:03, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

[[User:Golden Prime|Golden Prime]] ([[User talk:Golden Prime|talk]]) 02:42, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

:It is frankly ridiculous to cite Ken Spiro for a claim regarding the relative merits of lions and tigers in a fight - he is describing a Roman spectacle, not making an assessment regarding the fighting abilities of the animals. We don't cherry-pick random phrases from publications on entirely different subjects to use as source. Spiro may very well be qualified to write on 'The Jewish Impact on Civilization', but there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that he is an expert on lions and tigers - or that he makes the slightest claim to be. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 08:13, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

[[AndyTheGrump]] Ohh, you don't say...and what about everythig else I have mentioned, just grabage too then eh? This topic is so fragile, it needs consistant "hints" that all lead to the same conclusions, not just living in a life of denial obscuring single/individual refferences, so what you are saying is, all the things I have mentioned will be remained hidden from the world because some subjective bias people dont want anyone disagreeing with their own un-educated opinions on subject? lol Maybe you should read up on some of the basics on this subject before you go calling BS to a person who has a Masters degree, while in vice versa you have zero knowledge:

(Last Post on the page)
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17524&PN=6

Oh, wow...all that info, yet not one according to the bias necessities of wiki=goers, finds it reliable...XD WOW! Yeah and cherry picking 2 sub-species of the largest tigers to hide the fact lions on average (as a species) are heavier, taller, larger and bigger in size compared to tigers...what happened to the Sumatran tiger, The Indo-chinese, Javan, south-china, caspian, bali and malayian tiger...ohhh, Oblivious and re-written out of history just because they stand little to no chance to even the smaller sub-species of asiatic lions leo persica, and specifically to your comment, he does not have to know current biology 101 of tigers and lions of today, thats not the catagorie/profession he is in, if you even looked into the subject, Ken spiro was in the HISTORY CATAGORIE, as historians study things that are pre-recorded via remnents, archaeology and written documentation that is passed on from the past, so I dont know even why you commented on that, the other catagorie of EXPERTS OPINIONS would then be able to clarify their profession, as in observation, hypothetises, actual studys of live individuals, which yet again is what I brought via Terrell jacobs and Clyde beatty...probably the highest on hand observers intwined with on the field observers and zoologist such as Dave salmoni and Kailash sankhalka...and yet consistantly on a hour to hour basis has to have the same bias revisioner safe guard it by erasing anything that supports the lion. lol [[User:Golden Prime|Golden Prime]] ([[User talk:Golden Prime|talk]]) 08:30, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

:Such comments are doing your case no favours. This is the reliable source noticeboard, where we discuss the  merits of sources presented here - which is what I was doing. If you prefer, we could discuss the matter at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]], where your apparent inability to discuss the subject without resorting to insults will no doubt come under scrutiny. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 08:39, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

It woulden't matter to me, since someone would be to blame, it has been un-checked via over 5 years, I've conducted a scan of how many sites have cited and refferenced wiki on this subject, an its almost in the thousands with a ripple effect of viewers in the hudred millions, with incredibly mis-informed people all being propelled by a bias revisioner...so if anyone is to blame, it should be wikipedias moderators and admins, as I have only seen nothing but negativity be promoted out of what wiki was allowed to be spewed out, propaganda, ignorance, lies, fakes and more...for shame.[[User:Golden Prime|Golden Prime]] ([[User talk:Golden Prime|talk]]) 08:49, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

:The only person to blame for your behaviour is yourself - and getting permanently blocked will do nothing for your case. I suggest that rather than continuing with this discussion, which is unlikely to achieve anything concrete, you read [[Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources]], and [[Wikipedia:No original research]], and then look for material which both complies with Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and supports your position. And if you have ''specific'' issues regarding the sourcing and/or neutrality of the article as it stands which directly relate to Wikipedia policy, and can demonstrate them without resorting to personal attacks on other contributors, you could consider raising them in the appropriate places - here for questions regarding sources, at [[WP:NORN]] for issues pertaining to original research, and at [[WP:NPOVN]] for issues regarding neutrality. You should be aware however that your own editing will be subject to scrutiny too - and that any repeat of the sort of attacks you have indulged in here is certain to lead to sanctions against you. The choice is yours - you can work with us, our way, or you can expect to be shown the door. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 09:15, 28 January 2014 (UTC)




:One other thing - please do not edit your posts after they have been replied to. [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReliable_sources%2FNoticeboard&diff=592769412&oldid=592769006] It can make understanding a discussion next to impossible, and in consequence is against [[Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines]]. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 09:25, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

My behavior? Whats wrong with it...so basically the rightous, the person who wants to be fair, truthful ect has to be victimized by some uneducated people on subject who basically just pointed out in a small time frame 1/100th Bigcat82 was abusing the ethics of this website, and all I did was point out some mistakes, faults, exploits reliability/credability factors, and exposer of un-phantomed subjectivity unchecked biasness, and yet the very person who was frequent (Bigcat82) for years on this subject slipped passed abusing wiki as a propelling device to get out his own bias wants to pollute the world, cloaked unseen for about half a decade pushing out his own selfish needs without one, just one person interveening and having it adressed, moderated, reviewed, corrected, assest properly...and yet he goes un-corrected, un-challanged and unpunished...in fact aided/helped...Huh!

So what you're saying is, Bias intentions(Bigcat82)>>>>>>>Fair assement(Golden Prime)???? Okay, I'm done, I'll take it else where then. No biggie, since absolutely no one gave reasons and was able to prove the accounts of lions killing tigers were un-reliable...just people living in denial, purposely lying for a false cause... you can stay in a demented, delusional world of bias subjective B.S, I won't [[User:Golden Prime|Golden Prime]] ([[User talk:Golden Prime|talk]]) 10:06, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

One more last thing, I request a user Block on Bigcat82, since he isint and can't give any tangible proof that whats in place now as my last undo, is unreliable, as all are accounted for via newspaper acrhives, heres of an example...

This is a Newspaper archive with all its credentials:

The Times 2 September 1936 › Page 12
Clyde beattys lion named boss tweed, kills 3 tigers in one fight
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:E474f4BFJh8J:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/38953345/+clyde+beatty++lion+tiger++killed+++site:www.newspapers.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1 

Thats how it would look like in through the archive, you can go to its main site and purchase a Pdf copy of the article to view it your self, heres another account and how a snap shot peice of the article would look like:

lion kills three tiger’s Source: Altoona Mirror, September 27. 1928
http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k625/Leofwin/lionvstigeraccount4.jpg

So since Bigcat82 has no reason of removing what I posted of lions killing tigers accounts via reliable sources, it is in terms vandalizing, so I would like a mod to place a block on his account if he persist in removing credible and reliable occaisons to have a bias subjective and pro-data topic.[[User:Golden Prime|Golden Prime]] ([[User talk:Golden Prime|talk]]) 01:15, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

:If you wish for a contributor to be blocked, this isn't the place to propose it - [[WP:ANI]] would probably be a better place, ''if'' you had a good case, based on relevant evidence and a clear understanding of Wikipedia policy. Since you appear to have neither, I would however suggest that doing so based on what you have written here would be a total waste of time. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 01:35, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
:P.S. I would also suggest that it might not be in your best interests to raise the matter at WP:ANI, given that you have clearly failed to take previous warnings regarding your behaviour into account - adding material with a patently-false edit summary as you did here [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Tiger_versus_lion&diff=592451497&oldid=592361664] is unlikely to be seen in a positive light. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 02:00, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

You see what I mean, I don't like wasting my time like that...you just called them false...how, wheres your tangibe proof they are false, just saying it is dosent make them false, they are all directed straight to its root source, tell me exactly how is his (Bigcat82) a good case and mine isint? You dident even check for any of his verifications, so stop lying, there are even previous people who undid his revision since they actually read its content, answer one question andy...just one...are there only two sub-speices of tigers?

NO! There are NINE! So how is whats in place already a good case? You shouldent even be replying if you arnt interested in improving anything on this subject, I don't even know why you're here, you say you want reliability, and yet you make up lies and subjective remarks and hide behind wiki rules of abusing authoritys where its not needed. [[User:Golden Prime|Golden Prime]] ([[User talk:Golden Prime|talk]]) 02:30, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
:Wikipedia is a work of consensus. If you are putting forward sources that other's deem as unreliable (and they are clearly giving you reasons, btw), then you haven't achieved consensus. You can't revert and insult just to get your way - so either find a way to work '''with''' other editors or cut your losses and move on. [[User:Flat Out|'''<font color="blue">Flat Out</font>]] [[User talk:Flat Out|<font color="red"><span class="smallcaps" style="font-variant:small-caps;">'''''let's discuss it'''''</span></font>]] 03:13, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

:I have opened a thread concerning User:Golden Prime at WP:ANI. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Golden_Prime] [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 02:57, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

lol you have nothing on me and are making up lies after lie andy, go report me, who cares, we both know you have nothing that was true...I'm waiting andy, it states here WIKIPEDIA'S OWN SOURCE! [[Tiger]] there are NINE SUBSPEICES OF TIGERS! I previously added a revision even before the one you undid as ignorant and faslely proclaimed as you were, you offered no proof, and yet the former revision I had mentioned had 2 BIOLOGIST (you can check my other contribs) state all the tiger averages, and the lion on average is heavier and taller, I'm trying to be as historically as accurate as possible, what are you doing? Being subjective, bias and hiding the truth and twisting facts? 

You, are CONTRADICITING wikipedias own sources, there are more than 2 sub-species of tigers, yet you and flat out reverted to less reliable content...jesus christ talk about hypocrites, good case? You have NO CASE, you cant even exept the basic cases let alone you ignorantly trying to dis-prove of scholar/masters level'd people who you dident even know the concept between history and biology was supposed to be comprehended...yet again, making up things and being bias and subjective...why are you even here, to be a spaming bot?

:For the 100th time I reverted you for edit warring, but I would be interested in you pointing out where in [[Tiger versus lion]] it states there are 2 sub-species of tiger because I can't see it. [[User:Flat Out|'''<font color="blue">Flat Out</font>]] [[User talk:Flat Out|<font color="red"><span class="smallcaps" style="font-variant:small-caps;">'''''let's discuss it'''''</span></font>]] 03:49, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

The bottom line is you dident state why you revereted it to a less reliable one and yet all the accounts, everysingle one of them had a source, and you still reverted it out lol[[User:Golden Prime|Golden Prime]] ([[User talk:Golden Prime|talk]]) 03:14, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

:You were reverted - and blocked - for edit warring. [[User:Flat Out|'''<font color="blue">Flat Out</font>]] [[User talk:Flat Out|<font color="red"><span class="smallcaps" style="font-variant:small-caps;">'''''let's discuss it'''''</span></font>]] 03:49, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

== Reliability of opinion book review for BLP. ==

There's been an ongoing discussion over at [[Napoleon Chagnon]] about the status of a book review ( http://anthroniche.com/darkness_documents/0246.htm ) as a RS for a contentious statement in a biography of a living person. Specifically the following claims:
	<blockquote>Some anthropologists have criticized Chagnon's depiction of the Yanomami as fierce and violent. </blockquote>

<blockquote>Anthropologist Marshall Sahlins has criticized Chagnon's methods.</blockquote>


I'm willing to accept that the page is a faithful reproduction of a Washing Post book review as it claims. The author of the review is [[Marshall Sahlins]], a respected authority in this field. The book he is reviewing is “Darkness in El Dorado” a work critical of Chagnon.

My issue is with two interconnected problems. 

The first is that the review is essentially an opinion piece by the author, and one critical of Chagnon. This would make it unsuitable as a RS for a BLP as per [[WP:NEWSORG]]: “Reviews for books... can be opinion pieces.…[[Opinion pieces]] are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact. Since contentious material in BLPs require higher standards than most other material, I don't believe the review meets RS standard since the source is "rarely reliable".

The second issue is that, while the review contains criticisms of Chagnon that originate with Sahlins, it also contains criticisms that originate from “Darkness in El Dorado”, either quoted or paraphrased. This is done in such a way that I  can not with certainty say which criticism are Sahlins’ own opinion, and which are being quoted/paraphrased by the work under review. For example, "most of the criticisms of Chagnon rehearsed by Tierney have been circulating among anthropologists for years" seems to be coming from Sahlins himself. “he also attempted to win the hearts and minds of the people by a calculated redistribution of material wealth, and in so doing, managed to further destabilize the countryside and escalate the violence” is an almost direct quote from “Darkness in El Dorado” and not, presumably, Sahlins opinion. Though it could be. As a result, it’s very difficult to say which parts of this review are purely Shalins’ opinions, and which are selections lifted from the work under review.

I would like a consensus on two points:

1)	The article in question can not be used as a RS for contentious statements of fact in a BLP because it is clearly an opinion piece by Sahlins This is not a RS for the statements of fact that multiple anthropologists have criticised Chagnon, and that criticisms of Changon persisted over a prolonged period. .  This should be uncontroversial, though two editors in that article disagree.

2)	It is unsuitable even for a claim that Sahlins is critical of Chagnon. This is because it is so hard to separate the criticisms that originate with Sahlins from the criticisms that he is reviewing form the work. There is not a single clear example of a criticism originating from Sahlins in the article. Even the statement , "most of the criticisms of Chagnon rehearsed by Tierney have been circulating among anthropologists for years", which is fairly clearly from Sahlins, isn’t actually a criticism of Chagnon by Sahlins. It’s just a note of the fact that Chagnon was criticised by others, which may or may not have included Sahlins. It’s also a statement of fact which, if the previous point is upheld, can’t be reliably sourced from this opinion piece. No other critical material in the article is clearly originating from Sahlins. The article is clearly critical in tone, but I think we need something more concrete than "tone" for a contentious statement in a BLP. I think the least we should have is a single sentence that is both clearly critical of Chagnon and clearly originating from Sahlins and not a review of a passage in “Darkness in El Dorado”.


Thanks for your time. [[User:Mark Marathon|Mark Marathon]] ([[User talk:Mark Marathon|talk]]) 04:05, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:If there is a question about how to use the review in question, why not just quote a relevant passage from the review directly, and make no commentary.  Say exactly this:
::Anthropologist Marshall Sahlins has said: "<direct quote here>" and nothing else.  That way there's no way someone can claim you are adding your own interpretation of the source text.  --[[User:Jayron32|<font style="color:#000099">Jayron</font>]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|<font style="color:#009900">32</font>]]''''' 04:12, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:::The problem is that the article already has large (the largest in fact) section on commentary/opinions surrounding "Darkness in El Dorado”. I agree, it could easily be used in that section in the manner you suggest. The editors in question specifically don't want to use it in that section or in that manner. They want want to use it is evidence that Sahlins and other anthropologists are personally critical of Chagnon and have been for a prolonged period. They want this information in a different section unrelated to "Darkness in El Dorado”. Since any quote from Sahlins likely comes from "Darkness in El Dorado”, they can't be quoted in another section without violating [[WP:UNDUE]] unless they can be ascertained as statements of fact or Sahlins' personal opinion.[[User:Mark Marathon|Mark Marathon]] ([[User talk:Mark Marathon|talk]]) 04:23, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Those issues can be discussed (elsewhere, perhaps), but the specific question here is whether the source meets [[WP:RS]].  [[User:Nomoskedasticity|Nomoskedasticity]] ([[User talk:Nomoskedasticity|talk]]) 09:33, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:::Precisely. The issue is whether it is a RS for the statements given at the start of this section. Alternative usages to support other statements, such as suggested by Jayron32, while useful do not resolve the dispute as it pertains usage in the article. [[User:Mark Marathon|Mark Marathon]] ([[User talk:Mark Marathon|talk]]) 10:44, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
::::A Washington Post book review by a distinguished expert in the field is highly reliable for how a scholar's work has been received. It is not "personal opinion" but professional opinion. If other views conflict, include them alongside this one. [[User:Itsmejudith|Itsmejudith]] ([[User talk:Itsmejudith|talk]]) 07:41, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Judith, I agree that it is reliable for how "Darkness at EL Dorado" has been received. That was never in dispute. What we require is consensus on whether it is reliable for statements of fact about Chagnon. Note also that [[WP:RS]] does not distinguish between personal and professional opinion pieces. Either the article is an opinion piece or it is not. If it is an opinion piece, which you seem to accept, then according to [[WP:NEWSORG]]. Correct?[[User:Mark Marathon|Mark Marathon]] ([[User talk:Mark Marathon|talk]]) 09:18, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::Reviews of books, films, TV shows, musical productions etc are not opinion pieces. When written by an academic, as this one is, it is academic scholarship. This is the kind of source that a BLP of an academic should mainly be based on, but do apply normal caution. [[User:Itsmejudith|Itsmejudith]] ([[User talk:Itsmejudith|talk]]) 09:46, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== citypopulation.de/ ==

Thinking to use it as reference for [[Rajshahi District]]. It will be fine? [[User:Bladesmulti|Bladesmulti]] ([[User talk:Bladesmulti|talk]]) 12:12, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:Probably not.  However, the population figures they use are from the census.  You should use the census figures directly.  [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 03:45, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== Sources for the Moors Article ==

I have a problem with a few sources on the current [[Moors]] article as they're currently being misquoted (possibly libeled), one from an Afrocentrist author known for [[pseudohistory]], and one by some obscure author that has no validity.

The sources are the following: Ceylon and the Hollanders, 1658-1796, by, Pieris, P. E. 1874-1959, The Story of the Moors in Spain By Stanley Lane-Poole, Arthur Gilman, and The Golden Age of the Moor by Ivan Van Sertima. 

These sources are currently being used in the [[Moors]] article as I aforesaid.

*The problem with the content is the fact that the source that involved Ceylon and the Hollanders, 1658-1796, is by some obscure author with no validity, is improperly linked, and has no quotation or page reference. Here it is: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#cite_note-4] Even if it did have all those things correct, it still doesn't change the fact the main problem with the source is that it's some self-published source with no validity and has never been vetted by anyone.

*The next source "The Story of the Moors in Spain" By Stanley Lane-Poole, Arthur Gilman is a book created by an orientalist and orientalism can indeed distort differences between different cultures, not only that but Stanley Lane-Poole has not much scholarship, but the main problem is that the citation is currently being falsely quoted and possibly libeled. Here is what the citation on the page says: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#cite_note-1] as you can see it says "'''In ancient times, Africans in general were called Ethiopian; in medieval times most Africans were called Moors; in modern times some Africans were called Negroes.'''" and is quoting/claiming Stanley wrote that, but he did not. [http://books.google.com/books?id=OMYCAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false Here is the book] and you can check, he did not write that material, at all. 

*The next source is one by [[Ivan Van Sertima]] and here it is: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#cite_note-6] as you can see a "better source needed" claim is already there. The citation is substantiating the following material "West Africans from Mali and Niger who had been absorbed into the Almoravid dynasty." That material comes from a self-published source by well known Afrocentrist for extremist views who has been chastised for [[pseudohistory]] and this is the epitome of OR.

In my opinion these sources should be replaced by reliable sources that support the material, and if that cannot be done, then the material should go with the source. [[User:ShawntheGod|ShawntheGod]] ([[User talk:ShawntheGod|talk]]) 15:40, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

:In order - the [[American Ceylon Mission]] Press was not a self-publishing operation, it was (as you can see at that article) part of a highly influential and respectable organisation. Pieris wrote at least a dozen books on Ceylon and related topics which were not self-published, many of which have been felt important enough to see 21st century reprints from a variety of publishers (cf [http://www.amazon.co.uk/Books/s?ie=UTF8&field-author=P.%20E.%20Pieris&page=1&rh=n%3A266239%2Cp_27%3AP.%20E.%20Pieris], where you will also discover he spoke on the subject at Kings College, London in 1937). [[Moors]] is not the only page he is cited on. You'd do better to put some of this excess energy into writing a Wikipedia page about him. 

:[http://books.google.com/books?id=OMYCAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false There] is not the book, merely its front cover; and I seriously doubt we should have concerns about a libel suit from authors who were writing in the 1880s; they might be a bit old for legal action by now. [https://archive.org/details/storymoorsinspa02gilmgoog] is a non-machine-readable copy, but since [[User:Inayity]] has a copy perhaps they will be so kind as to provide a page reference and save some effort.

:Furthermore, all that source is actually cited for is that the Moors were medieval and Muslim. I'm not actually sure that is in serious doubt!

:Without going further into [[Ivan Van Sertima]], but "The Golden Age of the Moor" was published by [[Transaction Publishers]], who are not a vanity publisher. However, the idea that the Almoravids married Africans into the dynasty is hardly remarkable (frex their article cites Lange, Dierk (1996), "The Almoravid expansion and the downfall of Ghana", Der Islam 73, pp. 122-59.) 

:Furthermore, that source was tagged by [[User:Inayity]] - perhaps if you stopped trying to crowbar changes in and appealing to meatpuppets, they'd have a bit more time to look for something better? [[User:Pinkbeast|Pinkbeast]] ([[User talk:Pinkbeast|talk]]) 16:53, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

::Pieris is a complete nobody and just because it was published by a book publishing organization does not mean the book is still not self-published and by "self-published" I mean created by himself, anybody can write a book and get it published by a company, it's not too hard. I really don't even like using books as sources unless they have been vetted quite well. Also, yes [http://books.google.com/books?id=OMYCAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false] here is the book in its entirety. Do you not know how to scroll down the page with your mouse or use the search bar to the left? The book states no such thing and libeling doesn't just involve legal action, that may be a deeper process if the libelous is that serious to whoever the copyright goes to finds it that offensive. Damaging someones reputation by publishing false information under his name is a part of libeling, that misquote can fall under that. If the West Africans entering the [[Almoravid dynasty]] is such a common fact, why is that I looked for other sources that state such a thing yet fine none of validity to replace Ivan?  Either way, it's not gonna change the fact Ivan is an Afrocentrist known for distorting history and has been chastised for his beliefs and the source is currently making the material OR and is garbage. [[User:ShawntheGod|ShawntheGod]] ([[User talk:ShawntheGod|talk]]) 19:16, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:::What do you mean by '''Self-published source'''. I just need that clarified. Also being Afrocentric (like Molefi Asante) does not mean we throw it out. The actual statement which uses Ivan is actually not a pseudo historical claim. And hence why we left it in and allow people to seek better sources [[WP:NODEADLINE]] and this nit picking with some agenda behind it which remains unclear to me (at least) is not helping us to push on and make this article A grade. Give it a rest at some stage and fix something else. It is exhausting going on about Poole. --[[User:Inayity|Inayity]] ([[User talk:Inayity|talk]]) 19:45, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:::When I follow that Google link, the page I get explicitly states "No eBook available".
:::However, there is a full text of the book here https://archive.org/details/storymoorsinspa02gilmgoog (it might be a different edition, I neglected to check) and, assuming the search function is reliable, that indeed does not appear to contain the sentence you refer to beginning ''In ancient times''. [[User:Barnabypage|Barnabypage]] ([[User talk:Barnabypage|talk]]) 19:51, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
::::What was actually going on with that is that [[User:Inayity]] had quoted a section from the introduction which has now been correctly attributed after I found a machine-searchable text.[[User:Pinkbeast|Pinkbeast]] ([[User talk:Pinkbeast|talk]]) 19:54, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::Snap, I just figured that out too. :) If anyone is still interested, the quote in question comes from the introduction to the 1990 edition by [[John G. Jackson (writer)]]. The text of this introduction can be found at http://www.amazon.com/Story-Moors-Spain-Illustrated-ebook/dp/B00EKR1VK2/ref=sr_1_2?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1380653060&sr=1-2&keywords=moors+in+spain. [[User:Barnabypage|Barnabypage]] ([[User talk:Barnabypage|talk]]) 20:00, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:::"Created by himself"? Every book is created by its author, so I really have no idea what on earth you mean by that. (What "self-published" actually means is that the author paid for publication; that the printer just printed, with no concern as to the commercial viability or quality of the work. Pieris's books were not self-published.) And do you have any evidence for these assertions about Pieris or the publisher? "Anyone can get a book published" - well, I'm sure that will be a relief to various would-be authors, but can anyone also get their work repeatedly reprinted decades after their death?

:::I don't know if this is an artifact of geolocation, but there is no search bar anywhere on that page, no indication that the text of the book is anywhere present; and please remember that it's your previous persona, [[Special:Contributions/70.126.13.113|70.126.13.113]], who was needlessly offensive: I can use a Web browser.

:::The idea that whoever now holds the copyright on a book published in 1886 (and we've already got one impossibility there) can be libelled because the book was misquoted is utterly absurd.

:::The source does not make the material OR; see [[WP:OR]]. Only if Van Sertima were to edit the article himself based on his own conclusions would it be OR, and since he is dead that seems unlikely.

:::I suspect this is increasingly far removed from the business of RSN, so I'm leaving it be. [[User:Pinkbeast|Pinkbeast]] ([[User talk:Pinkbeast|talk]]) 19:54, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

:: Here is the original book by Stanley: http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Story_of_the_Moors_in_Spain.html?id=OMYCAAAAYAAJ the same link I gave you earlier, hopefully it works now to those having trouble. You then click on the front cover of the book and can scroll down through it all, or use the search bar on the left. I just elucidated what I meant by self-published in the post above, referring to all books, whether they be published from a company or not. Stanley's original book says no such thing, but apparently a version by an Afrocentrist does (not surprising). So that excerpt is not by Stanley himself. Also it can possibly fall under the definition of libel [[User:Pinkbeast|Pinkbeast]]. Yes it can be [[WP:OR]] because this is what OR is "Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist" that is not reliable, but also questionable due to the extremist views expressed in that literature. If Ivan's view is so common, why do I see no reliable source that expresses the same sentiments? [[User:ShawntheGod|ShawntheGod]] ([[User talk:ShawntheGod|talk]]) 20:13, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:::Colonial era books like Stanley and Pieris are likely to contain nationalistic or racist assumptions and are thus not reliable unless we have recent sources that say that they are still regarded as definitive. Sertima is not reliable for history. [[User:Itsmejudith|Itsmejudith]] ([[User talk:Itsmejudith|talk]]) 09:52, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

:: I completely concur about your sentiments on Pieris and Stanley, not to mention Stanley is an orientalist, they are well known for distortion of culture and differences between groups. The funny thing is Stanley did not even jot such words in his original book, but a republished version by an Afrocentrist writer is who those words belong to. Obviously self-published Afrocentrist writers like Sertima with extremist views are in no way reliable. [[User:ShawntheGod|ShawntheGod]] ([[User talk:ShawntheGod|talk]]) 13:48, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

:Does anyone care to share their opinions on the source regarding the Moors which is a republished edited version by an independently owned publisher [[Black Classic Press]] of Stanley's original work by the Afrocentrist writer [[John G. Jackson (writer)]]? Stanley's original version has been deemed as unreliable, so I don't see how a republished version by a publisher that lacks scholarship with some Afrocentric additions are reliable. You can [http://www.amazon.com/Story-Moors-Spain-Illustrated-ebook/dp/B00EKR1VK2/ref=sr_1_2?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1380653060&sr=1-2&keywords=moors+in+spain. take a look at some of the book here] and I think just by looking through a little of it you can already see the extremist questionable views and the dates are not correct. It does not seem reliable in my opinion. [[User:ShawntheGod|ShawntheGod]] ([[User talk:ShawntheGod|talk]]) 21:30, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::To be honest, the extremist questionable views don't jump out of the page at me. Whatever, this isn't reliable for history. [[User:Itsmejudith|Itsmejudith]] ([[User talk:Itsmejudith|talk]]) 22:13, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

== Is this website a suitable reliable source? ==

Seeking advice on the suitability of http://www.racingsportscars.com as a source, as used in the [[Vittorugo Mallucci]] article. The website is registered to a named individual, rather than an organisation, and I suspect the content is self-published and lacking any editorial oversight. [[User:Jaggee|Jaggee]] ([[User talk:Jaggee|talk]]) 20:16, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
::On the about page its say " contributions from friends and sports car enthusiasts" ....this would be a red flag in my opinion. BUT....its used all over Wikipedia (thus some must think its ok) ....so we should get others to look at this closely - [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=500&offset=0&target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.racingsportscars.com%2F External links search]. I have asked [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Sports Car Racing]] to comment since this could affect many articles and they need to be aware of what people think of the site as a whole.-- [[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 20:27, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:::I agree more, when the car websites are based on news. Than just historicity(you prefer books instead). [[User:Noteswork|Noteswork]] ([[User talk:Noteswork|talk]]) 05:38, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::::It probably does not qualify as a reliable source, per se, but almost all the information on it is copies of race results, making it a useful resource as a guide for someone building an article, but should not be the sole source of information.  Obviously race results and data from official sources is preferred, but some series are defunct and no longer exist, making finding race results near impossible, so sometimes racesportscars is the sole source of information available in that regard. [[User:The359|<font color="#004400">The<sup>3</sup>5<sub>9</sub></font>]] ([[User talk:The359|<font color="#004400"><b>Talk</b></font>]]) 15:38, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

The conclusion I see is that the site is not reliable, but is nevertheless widely used. I guess if it is the ''only'' source of something, then that something isn't all that notable - and can be removed. If it just the only ''online'' source, of content that could be sourced elsewhere in paper publications, then we need to dig out those paper sources. Either way, is there any policy-compliant reason to allow this site to be kept as a source in any article? [[User:Jaggee|Jaggee]] ([[User talk:Jaggee|talk]]) 09:43, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

== http://www.deathreference.com/, and a 1918 reference ==

Is http://www.deathreference.com/ a reliable source, specifically for the claim at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sacrifice#Pre-Modern_Europe] that <blockquote>"throughout Pre-Modern Europe, Child sacrifice was a thriving practice. Children and infants were commonly sacrificed either near river crossings or within new buildings, in which they were then buried or crushed under the foundation stones.</blockquote> This seems to refer to http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Sacrifice.html: "Burials suggestive of sacrifice have been found in the sites of ancient bridges and buildings throughout Asia, Europe, and North Africa. It was widely believed that territories were under the control of local gods who might be angered by intrusions. Blood sacrifice at border crossings (often marked by rivers) and within buildings were thought to be prudent offerings. Sacrificial victims were also interred beneath city gates.

Children were often selected as the sacrificial offerings. Excavation of the Bridge Gate in Bremen, Germany, and several ancient fortresses in Wales are among the many examples of this practice." The page has a bibliography, which looks like a list of credible secondary sources, but these claims are not specifically referenced (and our writing is also stretching the claims too far even if the source is to be considered reliable.) I also haven't found any description of the site's editorial control. Should we use it? 

In the same paragraph, "Child-Sacrifice Among European Witches M. A. Murray Man Vol. 18, (Apr., 1918), pp. 60-62" is referenced. I am not convinced that this identifies the reference properly - which journal was it in? and in any case it could be suggested to be out of date. I think that we should not rely on it, but I would be grateful for your ideas. [[User:Richard Keatinge|Richard Keatinge]] ([[User talk:Richard Keatinge|talk]]) 12:57, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:Question a: I agree, I can't see any evidence about who creates, publishes, edits the site and whether there is any peer review. If there really isn't any such evidence then we can't treat the site as reliable. 
:Question b: A hasty comment: that looks as if the journal is ''[[Man (journal)|Man]]'' and the author is [[Margaret Murray]], but I haven't checked. If that's the case, Murray is very notable and (I'd say) reliable; the journal is also reliable. But we'd better know exactly what she says!  [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 13:08, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:: [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]], I have a question about the Margaret Murray page. Is it weighted correctly regarding her current academic reputation? The "Legacy" section seems a bit pointed, the article is laced with broadly negative interpretive phrases (like the ones starting "It was likely", "Murray now became more and more emotional", but many more) and the most quoted source is Simpson, whose quotes consider her only negatively. Our article makes it seem like she's only been discredited,mostly per Simpson, but I don't know if that's the actual assessment from current academic sources. Right now it feels like the article is structured as an argument against her. I don't know what's happening there. [[User:Elaqueate|<span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ <span style="color:#000000">E L A Q U E A T E</span></span>]] 14:17, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::::[Edit conflict:] Very interesting question. My previous response was, as I said, "hasty", and when I made it I wasn't aware of the extent to which she may have favoured now-unfashionable (and indeed probably erroneous) views both in Egyptology and on witchcraft. (If I sounded knowledgeable, it's because I am (was) a librarian, used to spotting authors and titles, not because I am expert in these fields.) I wouldn't retract the "very notable", but I might rethink the "reliable" ... Keatinge is right, of course, [and now Judith, below]: we ought to try for more recent sources anyway.
::::But, as to the slant of our biography page, I'm not sure yet. The ODNB article (shorter than ours) takes a similar line. It is credited to "[[Max Mallowan]]; edited by R. S. Simpson". That's two Simpsons.
::::Our article on [[Jacqueline Simpson]] includes the curious, stray, throwaway line "Also cited for disclaiming theories proposed by Margaret Murray." It looks like a recent inexpert addition, but it's been there since the article was created in 2006, and even [[User:Simpsonworthing]] didn't think of removing it. Still, however that may be, it's perfectly possible that the current slant of the Murray article is the current consensus. I don't know (yet) :)  [[User talk:Andrew Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 15:25, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::: The article on [[The Triumph of the Moon]] (1999) has a bit more but it doesn't clear anything up. It just points to drama, not clarity. It seems that two people, Hutton (in his book) and Frey (in academic journals) have disputed Simpson's opinion on Murray, both of them being in pagan circles themselves, and everybody arguing. I think there's a modern-day POV battle that's obscuring a more neutral take here. As I said on the Murray talk page, there's no clear indication why Murray needed a century of debunking, with nobody being claimed as advancing or supporting any part of her views for that time. And all of these pagan articles have the same nice pull quotes! You don't see that very often. In any case, I also agree that scholarship that's more current would be needed for the claim cited.[[User:Elaqueate|<span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ <span style="color:#000000">E L A Q U E A T E</span></span>]] 16:03, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:::A 1918 paper is too old to be usable, surely? [[User:Itsmejudith|Itsmejudith]] ([[User talk:Itsmejudith|talk]]) 15:17, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:As far as this website is concerned, I don't see how it could be considered reliable. It has no indication of who publishes it, for starters, and that's enough to put me off it. [[User:Mangoe|Mangoe]] ([[User talk:Mangoe|talk]]) 16:03, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks for the advice. I've [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Child_sacrifice&diff=592983446&oldid=592807112 taken it]. [[User:Richard Keatinge|Richard Keatinge]] ([[User talk:Richard Keatinge|talk]]) 17:19, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== thecelebworth.com ==

*{{LinkSummary|thecelebworth.com}}

I [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Maia_Campbell&diff=prev&oldid=593000176 removed it] from a BLP and noticed it's currently being used in 28 other articles. It looks like a part of a spamming campaign, but I thought I'd first see what others think of the site as a source. --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] ([[User talk:Ronz|talk]]) 19:26, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
: It looks like a clickbait spamsite with zero credibility or editorial control. I wonder if it should be spam blacklisted or should it just removed as unreliable? [[User:Elaqueate|<span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ <span style="color:#000000">E L A Q U E A T E</span></span>]] 19:35, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::I've removed them all. They were added by new [[WP:SPA]] accounts, most that have made no other edits. --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] ([[User talk:Ronz|talk]]) 21:10, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== Sibel Edmonds' allegations of coverups by the media and U.S. government ==

@Petrarchan47 has accused me of engaging in a Wikipedia campaign of trying to discredit U.S. government "whistleblowers."  I disagree, of course.  If noting, as I did, that a particular "whistleblower" has also been diagnosed as paranoid psychotic happens to discredit said "whistleblower," the party doing the discrediting is not me but the reliable source reporting the diagnosis.  Currently at issue is having Wikipedia cite other members of the self-styled whistleblowing community in the various biographies of these people.  An example Wikipedia edit may be found [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Russ_Tice&diff=593031113&oldid=593030686 here], where [[Sibel Edmonds]] is cited as a "whistleblower" with no reference to the fact this person is also a 9/11 conspiracy theorist.  Elsewhere Sibel Edmonds notes that "Both mainstream and quasi alternative media outlets refused to publish or air Mr. Tice’s revelations" and [http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/21/msnbc-censors-nsa-whistleblower-russ-tice-minutes-before-interview/ declares] that this is because MSNBC "censored his entire testimony on these stunning allegations!"  Petrarchan47 referred me to Edmonds' view here that there is conspiratorial suppression at work to answer my question "why Tice's claims weren't picked up by respectable media."  Is Sibel Edmonds a reliable source?  Does citing the opinions of other "whistleblowers" who share a beef with the U.S. government add value to a "whistleblower"'s article or is it more of a self-referencing loop?--[[User:Bdell555|Brian Dell]] ([[User talk:Bdell555|talk]]) 18:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

:Since it is about opinions/statements it's not a question of "is she a reliable source". The following question should answer yours:<br>"Are U.S. government officials a reliable source? Does citing the opinions/statements of U.S. government officials who share a beef with "whistleblowers" add value to a "whistleblower"'s article or is it more of a self-referencing loop?"<br>In general, the answer would be yes for both scenarios.[[User:The Magnificent Clean-keeper|TMCk]] ([[User talk:The Magnificent Clean-keeper|talk]]) 18:40, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::So should that particular Wikipedia edit I called attention to be in or should it be out?  You seem to be calling on Wikipedia to give equal time to 9/11 Truthers because "government officials" have a "beef" with the Truthers and are in general conspiracy against the Truthers (or perhaps just "the truth" generally).  Does the U.S. government in fact propagate fringe theories equally frequently?  If you believe so and you mean to make a general call for equal time I would note that on the bios in question equal time is not currently being granted since unverified claims by the self-styled whistleblowers are currently being given significantly more weight.--[[User:Bdell555|Brian Dell]] ([[User talk:Bdell555|talk]]) 19:05, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::Whistleblower retaliation is not a fringe theory.  If Edmonds has a fringe theory about 9/11, it is not in the text cited nor in her bio. It stays, and you need a chill pill. --[[User:HectorMoffet|HectorMoffet]] ([[User talk:HectorMoffet|talk]]) 19:20, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Whistleblower retaliation is also not been even close to proven in the cases at hand here.  The issue here is one of RS.  As for "chilling", have you decided to chill your project to use Wikipedia's Main Page for political protest purposes or is that still going strong?--[[User:Bdell555|Brian Dell]] ([[User talk:Bdell555|talk]]) 19:43, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:I don't know Russ Tice or Sibel Edmonds, but the nature of your post suggests tendentiousness.  Your post suggest that we're citing a "truther" as a reliable source, when the "truther" appears to actually be verified agent of the FBI-- i.e. someone who's job is to think about these sorts of things.   This is a pretty gross oversimplification that cast doubt on the rest of your statement.   The diff you cite merely shows her offering an opinion, which is allowed.    In general, dial it down. --[[User:HectorMoffet|HectorMoffet]] ([[User talk:HectorMoffet|talk]]) 18:55, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::Wikipedia currently places the Sibel Edmonds BLP in the 9/11 conspiracy theorists category.  Whether people from this category should be deemed RS strikes me as a legitimate question.--[[User:Bdell555|Brian Dell]] ([[User talk:Bdell555|talk]]) 19:10, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::It did before you posted to the message board, but it no longer does.  That category is not supported by the article text and was thus a gross violation of [[WP:BLP]].   She may be a truther, I never heard of her, but category was not justified. --[[User:HectorMoffet|HectorMoffet]] ([[User talk:HectorMoffet|talk]]) 19:15, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::You've "never heard of her" but you just KNOW that the "category was not justified," do you?  How about practising due diligence before editing a BLP?  Clearly some other editor (besides me) disagreed with you on this point, since otherwise the category would not have been added in the first place, no?  Do other editors not deserve the courtesy of some cursory investigation before reverting them?  May I point out that Edmonds is a  [http://www.911truth.org/2009-truth-statement/ signer] of the "9/11 Truth Statement"?  May I also note that she went on the show of conspiracy theorist extraordinaire [[Alex Jones]] to [http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/240706insidejob.htm declare] that "The evidence points to a massive government cover-up" and when Jones asked her "if 9/11 was an inside job" and "Do you think the evidence is leaning towards that?" she replied "... I would say yes."?--[[User:Bdell555|Brian Dell]] ([[User talk:Bdell555|talk]]) 19:51, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::I worry we're getting into [[Wikipedia:DONTFEED]] territory, but one last stab.   The claim that she is a truther was not supported by the text in her bio.  Per [[WP:BLP]],  Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced  should be '''removed immediately and without waiting for discussion'''.  Good luck, I hope I've communicated with you successfully. --[[User:HectorMoffet|HectorMoffet]] ([[User talk:HectorMoffet|talk]]) 20:05, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::You evidently don't believe I deserve the courtesy of being communicated with given the policy you cite here, but I will return to my point about editors "deserv[ing] the courtesy of some cursory investigation" by noting that you [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Edward_Snowden&diff=prev&oldid=593162000 accused me] of "a very gross violation of BLP" despite the fact I have never edited that BLP.  Very gross violations of a BLP require editing that BLP, do they not?  You opened up a new Talk page section on a different BLP calling on everyone to review my editing based on my "error", despite the fact it would have taken very little effort to look at the article history and see that whoever added the "Truther" category, it wasn't me.  There's actually a good explanation for why the Truther stuff is not in Edmonds' article: she said it to other conspiracists and so another Wikipedia editor would likely make the knee jerk complaint that the party passing on the information is not reliable as he or she is a fellow conspiracist.  Now how about addressing the question of whether whoever did edit Edmonds' BLP did, in fact, commit an "error" in terms of factual accuracy?--[[User:Bdell555|Brian Dell]] ([[User talk:Bdell555|talk]]) 20:49, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Specifically, Edmonds subscribes to the "those responsible are not being held accountable because X" theory, not the "controlled demolition" theory.  That should be reflected in the text of her article, as she's absolutely a 9/11 conspiracy theorist.  Furthermore, her statements on matters should be taken with a large grain of salt, especially in BLPs. [[User:Thargor Orlando|Thargor Orlando]] ([[User talk:Thargor Orlando|talk]]) 20:15, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Has she actually claimed the truthfulness of a a fact that's contradicted by extant evidence?  As best I can tell, the only thing she claims to know for a fact is that she relayed some relevant intelligence and her higher-ups failed to prevent 9/11 and covered up their own incompetence.  That may be a minority opinion, but it's far from being a truther. (again, correct me if I'm wrong-- I'm not up to speed on all this).  (incidentally 9/11 conspiracy theorist isn't a very good term, 9/11 WAS, in fact, a conspiracy, be all accounts.    We're confusing JFK conpsiracy theoriests with 9/11 Truthers).   --[[User:HectorMoffet|HectorMoffet]] ([[User talk:HectorMoffet|talk]]) 20:45, 30 January 2014 (UTC)  
:::::::::One assumes that her assertions on the matter regarding the US government covering up portions of the story are believed by her to be truthful.  She details them in the documentary about her.  It's a theory with no apparent factual basis behind it.  This alone should disqualify her from being a reliable source, especially on BLPs. [[User:Thargor Orlando|Thargor Orlando]] ([[User talk:Thargor Orlando|talk]]) 20:59, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:You say "One assumes that her assertions on the matter regarding the US government covering up portions of the story are believed by her to be truthful"-- we assume no such thing.   What I'm asking is, has she advanced a theory that is provably false.   In my opinion, claiming that the US intentionally demolished the towers is demonstrably false.   A theory that the people ''should'' have connected the dots, failed to, and were shy about admitted that-- that's not a truther. --[[User:HectorMoffet|HectorMoffet]] ([[User talk:HectorMoffet|talk]]) 21:07, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::In this case, the idea that there are groups outside of Al Qaeda that actually funded and orchestrated the attacks and are being ignored by the government, her claim,  is considered false. [[User:Thargor Orlando|Thargor Orlando]] ([[User talk:Thargor Orlando|talk]]) 21:25, 30 January 2014 (UTC) 
:::To the extent we're using her as a reliable source to demonstrate obviously false claims, that's fringe.   What I've seen so far is just her claim that whistleblower retaliation exists-- which isn't fringe.   Having a fringe view in one domain (e.g. Jesus resurrected) doesn't disqualify you from expressing legitimate views in other domains. --[[User:HectorMoffet|HectorMoffet]] ([[User talk:HectorMoffet|talk]]) 21:31, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Except that her status as a "whistleblower" is directly because of her conspiratorial, fringy viewpoints on 9/11. [[User:Thargor Orlando|Thargor Orlando]] ([[User talk:Thargor Orlando|talk]]) 21:40, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
----
::: The [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Russ_Tice&diff=593031113&oldid=593030686 diff] cited is sourced to [http://archive.is/Sfotz this article] about TIce and it quotes and mentions Edmonds. That doesn't appear to be something made up by the editor you're disputing with.(It doesn't directly call her a whistleblower; it says, "Sibel Edmonds, the leader of the newly formed National Security Whistleblowers Coalition", but the connection is made by that source. The citation should be direct and not to "archive.is" as well.) I don't know whether the article is relevant, and there are many profound errors of weight and sense here, but both sides of the dispute have to use reliable sources, not blogs, and not synthesize a description of her, for or against. Having a mental condition at some point does not automatically disqualify a person by itself, and not being quoted in the mainstream media is not automatically some kind of censorship. It looks sloppy and unreliable on both sides here. [http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/ boilingfrogspost.com] looks like a self-published blog and should not be used for any fact beyond evidence of the opinions of its writer. This could probably be handled [[Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard|here]] just as well.[[User:Elaqueate|<span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ <span style="color:#000000">E L A Q U E A T E</span></span>]] 18:58, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::I don't even see any evidence that she denies the known facts of 9/11;   She may debate some of the facts about the level of government incompetence, but I don't hear her talking about controlled demolitions of the towers or any other tin-foil hat ideas.    Correct me if I'm wrong, but what evidence is there that she's a truther?  --[[User:HectorMoffet|HectorMoffet]] ([[User talk:HectorMoffet|talk]]) 19:13, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::(Edit conflict) The claim I added when mentioning Edmonds comes straight from the her wiki bio, which says "Her later claims gained her awards and fame as a whistleblower." There has not been dispute about it, nor has there been any about Tice, who is constantly referred to as a whistleblower, despite the fact that after going to Congress about lack of whistleblower protection, he suddenly was required to take another psych eval which the government used to discredit him. It didn't work, he [http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jan/13/how-do-you-get-politicians-to-care-about-privacy stands alongside] [[Thomas Drake]] as a whistleblower and is continually interviewed about the ongoing NSA revelations. The source I used to quote Edmonds is one brought to the article by Bdell555, whose [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Russ_Tice&diff=591513279&oldid=591314769 first edits] to this BLP are something everyone should review. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px  #B8B8B8;">[[User:Petrarchan47|<font color="#B3B3B3">petrarchan47</font>]][[User talk:Petrarchan47|<font color="deeppink">t</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Petrarchan47|<font color="orangered">c</font>]]</span>''' 19:20, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::I don't know anything about Edmonds, I was only speaking to the quality of the sources mentioned so far. It sounded like someone (subject or editor or both or neither) was advancing fringe theories, so I directed them there to sort it out, without prejudice to anyone. [[User:Elaqueate|<span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ <span style="color:#000000">E L A Q U E A T E</span></span>]] 19:26, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks, good advice. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px  #B8B8B8;">[[User:Petrarchan47|<font color="#B3B3B3">petrarchan47</font>]][[User talk:Petrarchan47|<font color="deeppink">t</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Petrarchan47|<font color="orangered">c</font>]]</span>''' 19:57, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::No problem; right now the only diff offered as evidence of anything was a direct quote from a newspaper that was then attributed as a direct quote in the Wikipedia article. That's not a reliable source issue. It sounds like people are arguing about due weight, not sourcing. [[User:Elaqueate|<span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ <span style="color:#000000">E L A Q U E A T E</span></span>]] 20:04, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::Yes but a determination of general reliability about a party making claims would inform the debate about how much space to give to that party's claims.--[[User:Bdell555|Brian Dell]] ([[User talk:Bdell555|talk]]) 20:56, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::: The notice board is not a place best-suited for determination of "general reliability" for any and all future or theoretical claims. 1. Source, 2. Article, 3. Content. There's a reason it says, {{xt|Many sources are reliable for statement "X" but unreliable for statement "Y".}} This looks like free-running content dispute and should be handled on the talk page of an actual article, regarding actual claims in context, I think. I haven't seen a single diff where she's being used as a source for anything. [[User:Elaqueate|<span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ <span style="color:#000000">E L A Q U E A T E</span></span>]] 21:55, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::Why does this board exist if every instance has to be evaluated on a case by case basis and no generalizations can be made about the reliability of a source generally?  I raised the issue of Sibel Edmonds here because looking through the history apparently she's never come up before on this noticeboard.  Are you saying it wouldn't have mattered because no precedent would have been created anyway were she deemed unreliable in the past?  I'd also note that it seems rather too convenient if an RS problem like "The moon is made of cheese"[unreliable source] can be solved by just saying "According to [unreliable source], the moon is made of cheese."  The second formulation is definitely better but it's hardly home free.  Hector is of the view that "9/11 WAS, in fact, a conspiracy, be all accounts."  Does this view have to be engaged again and again on article Talk pages or is there some centralized forum where it can be settled?--[[User:Bdell555|Brian Dell]] ([[User talk:Bdell555|talk]]) 22:17, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::I've removed Sibel Edmonds, and replaced it with a statement from Tice. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px  #B8B8B8;">[[User:Petrarchan47|<font color="#B3B3B3">petrarchan47</font>]][[User talk:Petrarchan47|<font color="deeppink">t</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Petrarchan47|<font color="orangered">c</font>]]</span>''' 21:26, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

== IMDB reliable source for awards? ==

Are the awards portion of IMDB[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0365140/awards] part of the curated content that is considered reliable or is that part of the user generated stuff? that we do not use? -- [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;;;">TRPoD <small>aka The Red Pen of Doom</small></span>]] 02:04, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
:I wasnt aware that any part was curated? Surely there is an official BAFTE site that could be used tho? [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 03:34, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
::I believe there are parts of IMDB that are reviewed, however as Gaijin suggest there must be better sources for all of these awards. [[User:Flat Out|'''<font color="blue">Flat Out</font>]] [[User talk:Flat Out|<font color="red"><span class="smallcaps" style="font-variant:small-caps;">'''''let's discuss it'''''</span></font>]] 03:41, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
:::I think what is being implied here is why IMDB isn't usually considered useful for information like this.  Insofar as the award is itself worth mentioning (BAFTA, Oscars, Golden Globes, major film festival awards, etc.) there exists other more reliable sources.  Insofar as there is no other source than IMDB, the award isn't probably worth mentioning.  Therefore, IMDB shouldn't be used for this purpose.  --[[User:Jayron32|<font style="color:#000099">Jayron</font>]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|<font style="color:#009900">32</font>]]''''' 04:49, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
:Yes, the awards section of IMDb is curated. They ask for sources of awards data that are submitted and reject submissions of awards reports that contain information that is contradicted by other sources that they regard as more reliable.[http://www.imdb.com/updates/guide/awards][http://www.imdb.com/help/show_leaf?infosource] I don't know how long they have had the current procedures in place for verification of awards; it's not inconceivable that some entries for lower-profile awards that were added to their database years ago may be incorrect. For high-profile awards (Oscars, BAFTAs, Palmes d'Or) generally, and for recent lower-profile awards, IMDb awards listings should be considered reliable. Info from IMDb's "trivia", "goofs", "quotes", and biography sections are not reliable. [[User:Dezastru|Dezastru]] ([[User talk:Dezastru|talk]]) 19:08, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
::Yes, but for higher profile awards, is there a conceivable reason why one would discard a more reliable source in favor of IMDb?  --[[User:Jayron32|<font style="color:#000099">Jayron</font>]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|<font style="color:#009900">32</font>]]''''' 05:04, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

==  Amiannoying - reliable? ==

Amiannoying is pretty well edited and comfortably less misleading compared to NNDB, but still what you think about it? Because I have found some errors in Amiannoying as well.

Thanks [[User:Noteswork|Noteswork]] ([[User talk:Noteswork|talk]]) 13:31, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

:Not remotely a reliable source. See [http://www.amiannoying.com/(S(cqln5untsu4oj1mjcvyqngsg))/faq.aspx#7a] for where they say they get their information from. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 13:44, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
::So they basically get every information through some secondary source? Thanks [[User:Noteswork|Noteswork]] ([[User talk:Noteswork|talk]]) 14:03, 31 January 2014 (UTC)