View source for Talk:Hamat Gader

{{ARBPIA}}
{{WikiProject Syria |class=Start |importance=Low}} 
{{WikiProject Israel |class=start |importance=mid}}
{{OTRS pending}}
== Borders ==

The coordinates puts the location southeast of Sea of Galilee, that would be close to the Syrian border. --[[User:Supreme Deliciousness|Supreme Deliciousness]] ([[User talk:Supreme Deliciousness|talk]]) 20:55, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

== challenge sources ==

[http://www.hamat-gader.com/hamatInfo.php?subjId=todayProfile&linkOrder=9&subLink=20 Hamat Gader in the 20th Century] seems to fail [[WP:RS]] as a source of history.  Maybe it is reliable as a source for the modern facilities. Counterarguments welcome. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 08:26, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually [http://nakba-online.tripod.com/golan-3.htm this web site] is dubious also, so I challenge it too. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 08:30, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

What is the source for "El-Hamma El-Souriya"?  I only find "El-Hamma".  [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 12:00, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

*I don´t see a source  for "El-Hamma El-Souriya" either; but there might be some Arabic/Syrian sources 
*Also, it is onesided to write "allowing free access to Hamat Gader for Israelis" etc;  as it would be equally right to say that from that time Syrian people have been denied access... And it was clearly a vacation-place for Syrians/Arabs  before 1967; just see  all the pictures that people have uploaded to the Pal.rem-site.
*[http://nakba-online.tripod.com/golan-3.htm That web site]  is no longer used in the article, is it? I removed it from [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Al-Hamma_Incident&action=historysubmit&diff=455404975&oldid=455404544 Al-Hamma Incident]; [[Tripod.com]] is an anon, user-generated (free) web-site. Can´t get further from [[WP:RS]], methinks. Cheers, [[User:Huldra|Huldra]] ([[User talk:Huldra|talk]]) 15:16, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
* Why would it be called El-Hamma El-Souriya when it was located within Mandate Palestine?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2.24.37.199|2.24.37.199]] ([[User talk:2.24.37.199|talk]]) 11:38, 24 July 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:: If the name is genuine it would probably be older than the British Mandate. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 12:24, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

== Modern history section ==

The section "Modern history" totally ignores that the Golan Heights is a part of the [[Israeli-occupied territories]] and therefore not under Israeli sovereignty. --[[User:IRISZOOM|IRISZOOM]] ([[User talk:IRISZOOM|talk]]) 02:45, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

==DISCREPANCY!!!==
The article on Hammat Gader uses the term "annexed by Israel" for the area of Hammat. However, the same article mentions the 1923 borders between the truncated Mandate of Palestine and Syria and Transjordan.
These borders do include Hammat Gader as a part of the British Palestine (Cisjordan) and not Syria or the Transjordanian Palestine. Since the Jewish State in Palestine was outlined by the UN as including all the Western Galilee, one cannot use the word "annexed" since the land of Hammat Gader is a part of the Jewish Palestine according to the UN.<small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Zinovy Vayman|Zinovy Vayman]] ([[User talk:Zinovy Vayman|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Zinovy Vayman|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:The background it outlined here: [[Al-Hamma,_Tiberias#1948_and_aftermath]]. In short, Al-Hamma, including Hamat Gader, was part of the DMZ (demilitarised zone) between Syria and Israel after 1949 agreement. Israel did not keep this agreement, and eventually annexed the place. [[User:Huldra|Huldra]] ([[User talk:Huldra|talk]]) 21:27, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

:: Also, the place is to the east of the 1967 lines, which is thea area seen as occupied by Israel in the Six-Day War. As there is a dispute between the lines, it's wrong to say it's Israeli or in Israel just because Israel annexed it. --[[User:IRISZOOM|IRISZOOM]] ([[User talk:IRISZOOM|talk]]) 03:08, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
::: <s>It is not east of the 1967 line, nor was it "annexed: by Israel. It was part of the territory allotted to the Jewish state under the 1947 partition plan, and was never part of Syria.  [[User:I invented &#34;it&#39;s not you, it&#39;s me&#34;|I invented &#34;it&#39;s not you, it&#39;s me&#34;]] ([[User talk:I invented &#34;it&#39;s not you, it&#39;s me&#34;|talk]]) 15:26, 18 February 2015 (UTC)</s>
::::It is part of Syrias history.--[[User:Supreme Deliciousness|Supreme Deliciousness]] ([[User talk:Supreme Deliciousness|talk]]) 17:56, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
:::::[[User:I invented "it's not you, it's me"]]: Why don´t you read the link I gave you above? It was decided by the [[Israel–Syria Mixed Armistice Commission]] in 1949 that Hamat Gader was in the  demilitarized zone between Israel and Syria.  After 1949, the 1947 partition plan was simply not relevant  to Hamat Gader anymore. (If you want to argue that it *was* relevant, well then Nazareth and all the other northern places which were supposed to be part of an Arab state (according to the 1947 plan) aren´t Israeli, either.) [[User:Huldra|Huldra]] ([[User talk:Huldra|talk]]) 21:43, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
::::::Nothing ended in 1949, no sovereignty was determined and the 47-8 status is needed to understand later Israeli claims.{{or}} I originally added Hamat Gaedr's area was annexed, which was a mistake. If you look at the [[Golan Heights Law]] [http://www.knesset.gov.il/review/data/heb/law/kns10_golan.pdf] the enclave is not included. Yet the NYT source explains no Israeli government since 1967 would discuss it, and a minister is quoted "The area is part of the state of Israel from the British Mandate period. It is not Syrian and never was." [[User:Danny lost|trespassers william]] ([[User talk:Danny lost|talk]]) 01:55, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

::::::: How is it in Israel? The description now is pretty good but the cats are wrong. As mentioned, the areas in the demilitarized zone was not Israeli and what we have today in the world is a consensus that the territory capture after lines are the occupied parts. --[[User:IRISZOOM|IRISZOOM]] ([[User talk:IRISZOOM|talk]]) 03:05, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::<s>It is within the international border separating Syria from (initially) the British Mandate and (subsequently) Israel. It was never Syrian, and is internationally recognized as part of Israel (see the NYT source in the article. ) The demilitarized Sinai is not a part of Israel just because Egypt agreed to demilitarize it. Nor is the  former DMZ zone of Auja al-Hafir "Egyptian". Syria's fringe position  that it is "no man's land" is just that - a fringe position, which we do  not represent  in this encyclopedia. [[User:I invented &#34;it&#39;s not you, it&#39;s me&#34;|I invented &#34;it&#39;s not you, it&#39;s me&#34;]] ([[User talk:I invented &#34;it&#39;s not you, it&#39;s me&#34;|talk]])</s>

:::::::::: You are mixing up things. The sovereignty was disputed and they had a DMZ to calm the situation. Sinai is under Egyptian sovereignty, while Auja is under Israeli sovereignity, no matter if they had a deal on a DMZ. --[[User:IRISZOOM|IRISZOOM]] ([[User talk:IRISZOOM|talk]]) 04:11, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::: :<s>No, I am quoting you a reliable  source , which says  this is internationally recognized as Israeli- it has the EXACT same status (a DMZ ) as Auja - it is and was, under Israeli sovereignty, despite the fact that  Syyria used force to briefly occupy it in the early 1950s, in violation of the 1949 Armistice. It is as much "Syrian" or "disputed" as  the West Bank is "Israeli" or "disputed". Syria's fringe posiiton on this is just that - a fringe position[[User:I invented &#34;it&#39;s not you, it&#39;s me&#34;|I invented &#34;it&#39;s not you, it&#39;s me&#34;]] ([[User talk:I invented &#34;it&#39;s not you, it&#39;s me&#34;|talk]]) 04:19, 19 February 2015 (UTC)</s>

::::::::::: It's true that NY Times descibes it as inside the international borders but the question has not been resolved as the DMZ didn't solve the issue of sovereignty, also keeping in mind that the world wants Israel to withdraw to the 1967 lines, so there are different views. So no, it's not clear that it is in Israel. --[[User:IRISZOOM|IRISZOOM]] ([[User talk:IRISZOOM|talk]]) 05:05, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::::: <s>That's your opinion, but on this encyclopedia. we go by reliable  sources. The  DMZ was never part of Syria, and Syria's internationally recognized border is to the East of the DMZ. We're not going to give the fringe position any weight here, anymore than we're going to give weight to Israeli claims that the West Bank is "disputed"[[User:I invented &#34;it&#39;s not you, it&#39;s me&#34;|I invented &#34;it&#39;s not you, it&#39;s me&#34;]] ([[User talk:I invented &#34;it&#39;s not you, it&#39;s me&#34;|talk]]) 05:15, 19 February 2015 (UTC)</s>
:::::::::::::Israel was proclaimed on the land it occupied in the 1948 war, and internationally recognized on that area. The DMZ was not part of that. So I would say that its not clear at all that this place is in Israel. --[[User:Supreme Deliciousness|Supreme Deliciousness]] ([[User talk:Supreme Deliciousness|talk]]) 05:29, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

::::::::::::: It's not my opinion, it's how it is described in the books etc. No where did I find that Israel has the sovereignty there and I have just checked even more on this. The DMZ was neither a part of Syria or Israel. They describe different claims - the internal border agreed between the French and the British, the 1949 lines and the 1967 lines, such as in this [https://books.google.se/books?id=DjAyc8Ru7RoC&lpg=PA421&vq=151&hl=sv&pg=PA151#v=onepage&q&f=false book]. --[[User:IRISZOOM|IRISZOOM]] ([[User talk:IRISZOOM|talk]]) 05:33, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Let me get this straight, what is Israel proper is what was allocated to the Jewish state by the partition plan? Yall really want that the definition thats used? Cus that would make Sefa-Amr and Nazareth and Lydda and Ramle all outside of Israel. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<font color="#C11B17">nableezy</font>]]''' - 05:36, 19 February 2015 (UTC)</small>

AFAIK, the last international recognised decision about Hamat Gader placed it in equal Syrian and Israeli DMZ. If we have the israeli categories,  should we not also have <nowiki>[[Category:Resorts in Syria]],  [[Category:Roman sites in Syria]] and [[Category:Springs of Syria]]</nowiki> in the article? [[User:Huldra|Huldra]] ([[User talk:Huldra|talk]]) 15:36, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
:I dont see why just the Golan categories are not sufficient. But {{u|Danny lost}}, thats your third revert in an article with a 1RR. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<font color="#C11B17">nableezy</font>]]''' - 16:04, 19 February 2015 (UTC)</small>
::Ah sorry. I wouldn't mind adding Syrian cats. The GH cats are a bit of a stretch. It doesn't answer either of the definitions at [[Golan Heights]]: The site is in the valley that topographically defines The Golan Plain's southern border, about 450m bellow it. And legally it is not part of the area annexed by Israel. What's in common is that both are held by Israel since 1967. It's also a bit strange to call it a populated place. [[User:Danny lost|trespassers william]] ([[User talk:Danny lost|talk]]) 16:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
::That said, it is often discussed in works about the Golan, as it doesn't fit any more easily other regions. [[User:Danny lost|trespassers william]] ([[User talk:Danny lost|talk]]) 17:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm dubious about it being in the Golan at all.  For one thing it wasn't in the Syrian province of that name.  For another, it was not included in the Golan Heights law of 1981.  So I'd say it isn't in the Golan Heights by either Syrian or Israeli reckoning.  It is a part of mandatory Palestine that Israel claims sovereignty over by bluff, similar to the Latrun Salient. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 17:45, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
:So how would you word its location? Im kind of at a loss myself. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<font color="#C11B17">nableezy</font>]]''' - 19:07, 19 February 2015 (UTC)</small>

:And today it's in the admin. unit of "Natural region Kinerot", in subdistrict Kinneret (not in the adjacent subdistrict of Golan): [http://www.cbs.gov.il/shnaton61/map/01_01.pdf], [http://gis.cbs.gov.il/shnaton53/keymap_h.htm]. [[User:Danny lost|trespassers william]] ([[User talk:Danny lost|talk]]) 21:41, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

== Protected edit request on 25 February 2015 ==

{{edit protected|Hamat Gader|answered=yes}}
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Reference is missing. Change no. 8 to:

<nowiki>{{cite book|url=http://books.google.com/?id=uM_kFX6edX8C  |first=Benny |last=Morris |authorlink=Benny Morris |year=2004 |title=The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited|isbn=978-0-521-00967-6 |publisher=Cambridge University Press}}. P. 513.</nowiki>

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[[User:Danny lost|trespassers william]] ([[User talk:Danny lost|talk]]) 14:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
:[[File:Yes check.svg|20px|link=]] '''Done'''<!-- Template:EP --> — '''''[[User:Mr. Stradivarius|<span style="color: #194D00; font-family: Palatino, Times, serif">Mr.&nbsp;Stradivarius</span>]]''''' <sup>[[User talk:Mr. Stradivarius|♪&nbsp;talk&nbsp;♪]]</sup> 02:11, 2 March 2015 (UTC)