View source for Wikipedia talk:Rouge admin

{{WikiProject Essays}}
{{shortcut|WT:ROUGE}}
{{oldmfdmulti
| date = 14 November 2006
| result = '''Speedy Keep'''
| page = Wikipedia:Rouge admin 
| date2 = 27 March 2007
| result2 = '''Speedy Keep'''
| page2 = Wikipedia:Rouge admin  (2nd nomination)
| date3 = 22 February 2008
| result3 = '''Keep'''
| page3 = Wikipedia:Rouge admin  (3rd nomination)
| date4 = 28 October 2008
| result4 = '''ROGUE SPEEDY KEEP'''
| page4 = Wikipedia:Rouge admin  (4th nomination) 
| collapse = yes
}}
{{tmbox|image=none|text='''Archives:''' [[/Archive1|Archive 1]]|textstyle=text-align: center;}}
<!--Discussions Below-->
== Spelling ==

I think you mean rogue and not rouge; I suppose that’s why this essay is funny. However, when you’re following policy and someone says you’re not, that’s not funny.--[[Special:Contributions/68.167.7.162|68.167.7.162]] ([[User talk:68.167.7.162|talk]]) 20:18, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

:The joke about "rouge" admins dates back to 2002 when the admin class was first created. It is not misspelt - "Rouge" is a common mis-typing of rogue, and that is how the label was first created. You seem to be misunderstanding the point about the rouge admins - since the earliest days we have had to deal with people coming to Wikipedia to spread [[Wikipedia:The_Truth|'THE TRUTH']], and the rouge admins were those who faced these <s> nutjobs</s> passionate editors down. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 07:17, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

== Does this page send the wrong message? ==

Sure, we've all run into [[Josiah Carberry|psychoceramicists]] who make this page funny, but one of the issues that's been simmering at Wikipedia is the lack of oversight of the admin corps.  This page has the unfortunate side message that the admins are really right all along and that anyone who disagrees does so because they are... [[euphemism|difficult]].  I've met my share of unhelpful responses from admins who assume that anyone who disagrees is accusing them of being [[just because it's appropriate to have a red link|rouge]].  There's a sentiment in customer service that the "customer is always right" and this page, among others, might give the impression that complaining is meaningless because the "customer is always wrong."

Sure, it's funny, but Wikipedia's terrible "customer service" to the editors is part of the reason we're shrinking and not growing.  I don't know if deleting this page would actually help, but I would support the deletion of it at an MFD if someone wants to second it by proposing it (or just say so and I'll figure out how to do the technical stuff).  [[User:SDY|SDY]] ([[User talk:SDY|talk]]) 18:06, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

:::<s>Having worked in customer service for a national wine merchant and a global telecommunications company, I can assure you that the customer is usually '''wrong'''. Of course, in [[Real life|the real world]] it is perfectly permissible to [[WP:AGF|assume bad faith]]. [[User:Suriel1981|<font color="#9400D2" face="comic sans ms"><strong>ŞůṜīΣĻ</strong></font><font color="#00008C" face="Papyrus">¹98¹</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Suriel1981|<font COLOR="#DC143C"><strong>Speak</strong></font>]]</sup> 21:20, 11 August 2011 (UTC) </s> <big>WIKIPEDIA IS THE REAL WORLD, [[User:Suriel1981]]!! READ [[WP:IRL]] AND THEN GO TO THE NAUGHTY CORNER!! signed: [[WP:SCREW|THE CABAL]]</big>

I don't think that's the message at all. The page parodies and satirises those who, when they don't get their way and face admin action as a result of their insistence, immediately begin censuring said admins - hence the list of frequently applied labels (fascist, anti-Semitic, etc.) - and blaming them for the consequences of their own actions, typically whilst proclaiming their own righteousness. These people have seldom  perused the policies of Wikipedia and are usually extremely obstinate, almost never backing down, and react in a petulant, infantile manner when they continue to 'misbehave' - eg sock puppets, vandalising, etc. They also have a penchant for long-winded rants with intensive use of self-righteous rhetoric, replete with typos; thus, 'rouge' as opposed to 'rogue'. They're Wikipedia's fundamentalists, 'truth seekers' who regard those not enlightened as 'sheeple' and other similar obnoxious terms. Basically, they make an edit(s), it contravenes policy and is reverted, they revert back, blah blah, an admin is called in to resolve the dispute, offering advice and whatnot, perhaps an arbitration case commences...but, most of the time, these warriors of truth fail to listen and comprehend - or they willfully ignore and misunderstand - and, since they're so goddamn stubborn, they can't conceive of their being in the wrong, so they blame it on everyone else - in particular, those who they perceive as having 'power', admins. They often unconsciously associate power with corruption, wholly misconstruing how Wikipedia and consensus functions, and cry censorship, suppression, etc. Does that make sense?I don't see how anybody, aside from said POV warriors, could consider this remotely offensive. If you don't find it funny, too bad - I do, and I'm evidently not the only one.Peace :)  [[Special:Contributions/124.168.210.216|124.168.210.216]] ([[User talk:124.168.210.216|talk]]) 02:51, 29 December 2012 (UTC) ([[User:Psychonavigation]])

::'''''Let's get them <font COLOR=Red>Rouge</font> bastids NIGH!!!''''' {{wink}} <font face="Georgia">[[User:You Can Act Like A Man|<span style="color:Green">'''Basket''' </span><sub><span style="color:orange">'''Feudalist''' </span></sub>]]</font> 16:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
::Certainly there are such "warriors of truth" and a little satire is appropriate, but it seems a bit one sided without the other angle in it of "warriors against the truth" pretending to be genuine admins who are also here. I have been watching one in action and he or she gets many complaints from editors that indicate an unwillingness to debate the issues properly. I invited constructive discussion on one issue on his or her talk page and it was deleted.  Whether their is a cabal I don't know, but there is certainly one rogue admin I have noticed. He or she will probably be stopped eventually but might do lots of damage before that happens. Interestingly he or she has one of those label things that others put on the persons talk page which directs us to this bit of one-sided humor. Good cover for a real Rogue Admin it seems to me. It took me a while to get my head around it.[[User:Jed Stuart|Jed Stuart]] ([[User talk:Jed Stuart|talk]]) 02:32, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
:::You do realize that like everyone, your contribs are visible to everyone? [[User:Jytdog|Jytdog]] ([[User talk:Jytdog|talk]]) 04:00, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
::::Woops, I made a newbie mistake. I will however attempt to tackle him directly if he doesn't be more appropriate. It occurs to me also that it might not have been him who deleted my question from his talk page. I don't know who has that power. Maybe a hacker could have done it even.[[User:Jed Stuart|Jed Stuart]] ([[User talk:Jed Stuart|talk]]) 00:43, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

This page absolutely sends the wrong message assuming you want people to believe the admins aren't petty assholes high on pretend internet power.  Hell I agree with the message hidden under the snarky superiority complex but it sets my teeth on edge to read this drivel. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:166.175.190.193|166.175.190.193]] ([[User talk:166.175.190.193|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/166.175.190.193|contribs]]) 09:36, 18 June 2016‎</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

==message==

This page does not contain the TINC:approved stamp.

Perhaps SCREW will have something to say about this...[[User:Assistant N|Assistant N]] ([[User talk:Assistant N|talk]]) 00:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

== I love this page! That being said, there are a couple of things that "I" would change: ==

I have read and find this page quite amusing. That being said, there are a couple of things that "I" would change:
* 1) I would put the following banner on the actual article page:
{| class="messagebox"  style="color: #000; background-color: #DAF; border-color: #B5F;"
|-
|[[File:Laff alert.svg|80px|LAUGH!!!]]
|That page contains material which is kept because it is considered '''humorous'''. It is '''not''' intended, nor should it be used, for any remotely serious purpose.
|}
* 2) I would also add another banner above that one that tells people that have a legitimate concern or complaint where they can go to get help
{| class="messagebox"  style="color: #000; background-color: #FDA; border-color: #FB5;"
|-
|[[Image:Clipboard.svg|40px|Note!]]
|'''IF''' you have a serious and legitimate complaint, please follow the proper procedure and file it [[WP:A/G|here]].
|}
Other than those two banners being put at the top of the page so that editors that have real issues and are getting desperate to find a solution don't mistake the page as something it is not. — <code class="nowrap">&#123;&#123;U&#124;[[User:Technical 13|Technical 13]]&#125;&#125; <sup>([[Special:EmailUser/Technical 13|e]] • [[User talk:Technical 13|t]] • [[Special:Contribs/Technical 13|c]])</sup></code> 17:20, April 2, 2013‎ (UTC)

:Who is ''"I"''? Obviously not you, because you put the word in scare-quotes. Some people use quotation marks for "emphasis", but you're plainly too intelligent and well educated for that. --[[User:Thnidu|Somebody else]] ([[User talk:Thnidu|talk]]) 21:33, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
:* I'm not sure what your goal with this comment is, but I've added my signature so it is clear who made this post a year ago. — <code class="nowrap">&#123;&#123;U&#124;[[User:Technical 13|Technical 13]]&#125;&#125; <sup>([[Special:EmailUser/Technical 13|e]] • [[User talk:Technical 13|t]] • [[Special:Contribs/Technical 13|c]])</sup></code> 12:59, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

== Abusive actions by Rouge admin. Possible conspiracy. Urgent action required. ==

A 2012 edit ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Template:Tree_list/doc&diff=next&oldid=499187926 diff]) added "a rouge link" to a crucial document. I fear this may have been done by a sleeper sockpuppet of a Rouge admin. I have just now removed the worst effects of the change but the edit had remained in place so long that there may have been a conspiracy by other Rouge admins to protect this abusive activity. Action This Day. [[User:Thincat|Thincat]] ([[User talk:Thincat|talk]]) 11:42, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

== Chinese translation ==

I have just (after being irritated at being effectively called a rogue admin by two users at Chinese Wikipedia) translated it to Chinese.  (See [[:zh:Wikipedia:胭脂派管理員]].)  Anyone with decent or better Chinese skills, please review to see if I got the spirit of it and make improvements.  Thanks.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 18:39, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
:That could be tricky, the whole page relies on the joke that some people get rouge and rogue confused. Are the two words equally similar in Chinese? ''[[User:WereSpielChequers|<span style="color:DarkGreen">Ϣere</span>]][[User talk:WereSpielChequers|<span style="color:DarkRed">Spiel</span>]]<span style="color:#CC5500">Chequers''</span> 17:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
::Not really, so it's not a word for word translation - but that's why I'd appreciate some input.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 15:49, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

==Humorous==
It's been said before but this page should have a tag on it that notes it is used for humorous purposes. Wikipedia is encyclopedic and not meant to adhere to some weird little club of Wikipedia editors. I'm going to add the tag at the top; since some moron gave you guys administrative privileges you'll probably ban me, but IDGA Flying F because I can change my IP in a matter of seconds. [[Special:Contributions/2601:601:600:4E4C:1C8:AB08:BF02:F16A|2601:601:600:4E4C:1C8:AB08:BF02:F16A]] ([[User talk:2601:601:600:4E4C:1C8:AB08:BF02:F16A|talk]]) 02:49, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

==There Is No Cabal==
There Is No Cabal (TINC). We discussed this at the last cabal meeting, and everyone agreed that there is no cabal. An announcement was made in ''Cabalist: The Official Newsletter of The Cabal'' making it clear that there is no cabal. The words "There Is No Cabal" are in ten-foot letters on the side of the international cabal headquarters, and we show a disclaimer that there is no cabal at the start of every program on the Cabal Network. If that's not enough to convince people that there is no cabal, I don't know what will. --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 02:34, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
:Declaring a conflict of interest and not using self-referencing citations ? [[User:BushelCandle|BushelCandle]] ([[User talk:BushelCandle|talk]]) 03:28, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

== Not Sure If Serious (Even Here on the Talk Page), But... ==

...if so, I thought it would be good to mention the following: I don't think "rouge" is intended (by people who use it seriously) as either a reference to makeup or a misspelling of "rogue". As the page on [[rouge]] mentions, it is French for "red", and as such was used by many self-declared [[communist]] governments. And many of these governments were often regarded as dictatorial, at least by their opposition (including many self-declared communists who viewed these governments as "not true communism"). For example, the [[Khmer Rouge]] was the government of the (in)famous dictator [[Pol Pot]]. I hope this helps somebody who might be confused. [[User:BlueGuy213|BlueGuy213]] ([[User talk:BlueGuy213|talk]]) 15:02, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
:{{re|BlueGuy213}} it is whatever you want it to be :D — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 15:18, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

== Please consider the harm to WP that this page does.   Let's grow a pair, shall we? ==

'''Warning:''' '''Fodder for an honest conversation below:'''   What follows is opinion based on my 12 + years of WP experiences & observations, but I believe it to be accurate:

Let us consider that the most useful, constructive editors on WP make edits anywhere from 1-10 times per year '''only'''. They refrain from making edits in topics that they know nothing about. They only contribute to WP in topics or areas where they have in-depth knowledge. When they do make edits, they tend to be substantive, accretive, contribute to the utility of the article and to the knowledge imparted on the reader. Usually, they are sourced and duly referenced with proper citations. In short, they care. I would like to think that committed, engaged, knowledgeable people like this are exactly the kind of folks that Wikipedia, and we, should want contributing to it. They may make fewer edits, but these edits are of a higher quality and made mainly in areas where they possess actual real knowledge & understanding.

I'm quite sure, then, that for them it must be maddeningly irritating to be reverted by some 'Admin' who know knows nothing about the subject.  Let's be honest with each other; Admins generally are rarely experts in a given topic. No one can be an expert in the thousands of topics that Admins oversee, and so many Admins hop around from one WP article to another - thousands of times across significantly broad & diverse topics without any in-depth knowledge of any - and remove, delete, slash, cut, and detract valuable information while, sometimes, let's be honest, a little drunk & delirious on the power ascribed to them with an administrative account.  Some of these reckless Admins really do make WP worse, let's admit it.

If an outsider were to judge it, the 3 revert & block rule might seem unfair (excluding against obvious vandals, of course). I'm not arguing that it's unnecessary, just that it's unfair.   And appealing an undue block is simply way too much work, aggravation & effort for most. It's easier just to  '''''not'''''  contribute to WP in the first place.  '''''Is this really what we want?  Do we really want to repel the best & brightest WP contributors?'''''

The rub is that some (many?) Admins often seem to forget that the WP “guidelines” - which I know we all strive to apply & administer so religiously - are only suggested guidelines, not canon. And let us never forget the 5th Pillar : That Wikipedia actually has no firm rules, per se. 

So at the end of the day, reasonableness must rule, and  '''no Admin among us should remove smart, well-written, sourced edits that add to the encyclopedic knowledge imparted in the article, ''even if an Admin's dominion over a certain article feels challenged, threatened, discouraged or daunted. Or even if there is some 3rd tier, obscure, trivial WP guideline that might possibly, if we stretch, be somewhat applicable.      We all need to start admitting that, too often, the above does happen...'''''

As for this ROUGE ADMINS page: I completely agree with the growing voices of others who are suggesting that it sends the wrong message, and should be deleted. People don't come to WP for humour, anyway. There are plenty of places on the internet for that. This page is pointless.

Yes, we can disregard the feelings of dissenters and tell them to 'get a life,' or 'develop a sense of humour'  but many who have ever felt victimized in one way or another find it difficult to laugh, even while others can. (Think about victims of hazing, harassment, rape, bullying, discrimination, etc..) 

We need to also admit that on the editor/admin continuum, its us Admins who hold '''''all''' the power.''  (Just as Priests, Teachers, Imams, or Bad-Bosses do... many of whom can & do exploit their subjects/subordinates/inferiors/students/employees, etc...)  And who, really, is there to effectively oversee Admins? Should chickens really be in charge of the hen-house? 

As others here have pointed out on this talk-page, let's not forget that in real-life '''''"the customer is always right.”'''''  While we know in practice this isn't always literally true - it at least sends a message of over-arching respect. And on WP, editors are effectively the “customers” because without them, there would be no WP.  We must never forget this.

'''So even though it's couched as 'satire' or 'humour', let's collectively grow up a bit, show some maturity, and delete this page, lest it give cause to those who call us (Admins) arrogant and condescending.'''  

'''Are there any other intrepid, courageous Admins out there who are with me on this?'''     :::::::  [[User:NotionDisabuser|NotionDisabuser]] ([[User talk:NotionDisabuser|talk]]) 21:47, 14 September 2017 (UTC)


  
* [[User:NotionDisabuser|NotionDisabuser]] wrote:<blockquote>Let us consider ... constructive editors ... contribute to WP in topics or areas where they fully and completely have in-depth, unassailable knowledge... edits... substantive, accretive, interesting & well-written, contribute significantly to the utility of the article and to the knowledge imparted on the reader. Usually, they are sourced and duly referenced with proper citations.....<br/>I'm quite sure, then, that for them it must be maddeningly irritating to be reverted by some 'admin' who know knows nothing about the subject. </blockquote>
: The second paragraph quoted does not follow the first.  No reasonable admin would revert a constructive, in-depth, unassailable ... duly referenced with proper citiations, edit.  My guess is that you have in mind [[WP:FRINGE]] and the error in your logic is with "proper" as in "proper citations".  The "unassailable knowledge" part makes me think you may be a kook.  --[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 00:08, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

*I see various misconceptions about how Wikipedia works in the above post.  Articles and edits are not only patrolled by administrators.  Admins are also subject to policies and are pressured to hand their tools/privileges if they do not follow them.  My impression is that those claimed "substantive, accretive, interesting & well-written" contributions were likely improper for inclusion in the encyclopedia if they really were removed.  But no specific example was shown.  Also, since edits must summarize sources, expert knowledge is rarely required to distinguish appropriate content from problematic edits.  —[[User:PaleoNeonate|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#44a;text-shadow:2px 2px 3px DimGray;">Paleo</span>]][[User talk:PaleoNeonate|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#272;text-shadow:2px 2px 3px DimGray;">Neonate</span>]] – 01:13, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
::I see that the original comment was now changed to say "us admins", for whatever reason.  If the goal is to have this humorous essay deleted, you can nominate it for deletion too, the discussion will determine if the page should be deleted.  Thanks, —[[User:PaleoNeonate|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#44a;text-shadow:2px 2px 3px DimGray;">Paleo</span>]][[User talk:PaleoNeonate|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#272;text-shadow:2px 2px 3px DimGray;">Neonate</span>]] – 05:15, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


*:: @[[User:PaleoNeonate|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#44a;text-shadow:2px 2px 3px DimGray;">Paleo</span>]][[User talk:PaleoNeonate|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#272;text-shadow:2px 2px 3px DimGray;">Neonate</span>]]: Of course I understand how Wikipedia works. But when you say Admins "are pressured to hand their tools/privileges if they do not follow," let's be honest with each other: Hand-over to whom? Other Admins, that's who. Isn't this chickens watching over the hen-house, as I mentioned above? And honestly, out of the tens of thousands of Admins, how many are actually desysopped each year?  Exactly.   I'd like to build some consensus here before nominating this page for deletion... Ideally, several other Admins will step-up, see the light and nominate it too. I don't want to be the lone soldier of conscious.  (Are you listening [[User:SDY|SDY]] ([[User talk:SDY|talk]]), [[User:Jed Stuart|Jed Stuart]] ([[User talk:Jed Stuart|talk]]))? There's no point in nominating it only to have it fail and not be deleted, as has happened too many times in the past. Are our lives really so bad that we need '''''this page''''' for our humour? No, of course not. So let's just delete it. [[User:NotionDisabuser|NotionDisabuser]] ([[User talk:NotionDisabuser|talk]]) 12:40, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


** [[WP:SOCK]]: "Undisclosed alternative accounts are not to be used in discussions internal to the project." --[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 13:47, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


:::  See? This is exactly what I was talking about! Thank you [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] for proving my point. There are too many Admins who, when they personally disagree with what has been written, or feel somewhat challenged or threatened, will do whatever it takes to find some, any (sometimes obscure) WP Guideline or Policy, no matter how awkward or poor the fit, simply to wield their power (undeservedly).  '''[[WP:SOCK#LEGIT]]:'''   Please don't check-user me or try to 'out' or ban me, or make ad-hominem attacks. I mean no disrespect, and I'm sorry if I struck a raw nerve, but as I warned above, I'm just trying to start an honest conversation. We should always encourage discussion, right?   [[User:NotionDisabuser|NotionDisabuser]] ([[User talk:NotionDisabuser|talk]]) 14:17, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

:::: PS:  Think of my words not as coming from an attacker but rather from your own adult child, who loves you, and just doesn't want to see any harm come from all of the drinking you've been doing ...  [[User:NotionDisabuser|NotionDisabuser]] ([[User talk:NotionDisabuser|talk]]) 

:::::Since you are making the analogy, what adults tend to say kids who object to things they don't understand, is "you'll understand when you're older". This is often true with regard to humor. [[User:Jytdog|Jytdog]] ([[User talk:Jytdog|talk]]) 17:05, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

::::::   I amended the above to "adult" child, as in 'intellectual equal.' Nonetheless, you've also proved my point:  How many Admins are like you, and see themselves as the 'Parent', looking down condescendingly on all the young, infantile editors, who just need to be spanked and taught a lesson? A lot, I bet, right?   Thank you [[User:Jytdog|Jytdog]]. We know how you feel. Anyone else have any input? [[User:NotionDisabuser|NotionDisabuser]] ([[User talk:NotionDisabuser|talk]])

{{Od}} None of the editors who've commented here to your screed are admins. We're just ordinary registered editors, though with years of actual editing experience, and none of us can delete pages. There are only about 1,300 administrators on English Wikipedia, not "tens of thousands of Admins". None of those administrators is going to delete this page without a clear consensus to do so. They would be reverted, and possibly sanctioned in some way, if they did, as it would be an improper use of admin tools, the very thing you're railing against here. The only way to get this page deleted is by nominating it for deletion, and you've already refused to do that for the time being. This talk page is primarily for discussions directly related to editing the page itself, not for criticizing unnamed admins for vague, unspecified offences. It's certainly not the place for browbeating or intimidating an admin into deleting the page with condescending comments like "Let's grow a pair" or "Are our lives really so bad that we need this page for our humour? No, of course not. So let's just delete it." If you want it deleted, grow a pair yourself and nominate it for deletion now. Otherwise you're just tilting at windmills, and that isn't what this page is for. - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 19:59, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

:: Thank you  [[User:BilCat|BilCat]]. Let's think of this as an intervention, or Jerry McGuire inspired manifesto, rather than screed. WP, and we all, can emerge better if we simply introspect a little. Whether Admin or HVE (High-Volume-Editor) who unduly deletes and reverts a lot, the same concepts apply.

:: This page was nominated for deletion a few times in the past already... each time it was discussed & dismissed. I'm just trying to build some concensus here first, so that it doesn't fail again, by pointing out that a page like this causes way more harm than good, and makes us all - whether Admin or HVE - look really bad. And it hurts WP overall. Is this really what we all want?  [[User:NotionDisabuser|NotionDisabuser]] ([[User talk:NotionDisabuser|talk]])  <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 20:30, 15 September 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:::Of course no one wants to harm Wikipedia, but you haven't ''proven'' that it does so. Merely stating your opinion isn't proof of anything. As to admins vs HVEs, this page has nothing to do with HVEs. They have their own cabal - see [[Wikipedia:Rouge editor]] that actually stands in opposition to this one. Good luck with your campaign to build a consensus, but that isn't the purpose this talk page. That's the purpose of a deletion nomination. - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 20:51, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
:::I won't be responding here further. Nothing you have written here is reasonable and you are just repeating yourself now. I imagine others are going to stop as well.  Given that you have said you are SOCKING here, it is just likely as not that you have been indeffed for exactly this is kind of NOTHERE battering of talk pages. [[User:Jytdog|Jytdog]] ([[User talk:Jytdog|talk]]) 20:54, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

:::: @[[User:Jytdog|Jytdog]] None of the assertions & allegations you've made are well-founded.  Your refusal to discuss the merits, and willingness to so quickly & recklessly level ad-hominem attacks (exactly what I requested you refrain from) is also noted, and speaks loudly about your Wikipedia editing style.

:::: You'd be well-served, in life and on Wikipedia, by refraining from rash, baseless presumptions.  Thank you for stepping aside and letting cooler heads contribute constructively to the conversation. [[User:NotionDisabuser|NotionDisabuser]] ([[User talk:NotionDisabuser|talk]]) 22:11, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

* [[User:NotionDisabuser|NotionDisabuser]], what are some of the pages where you believe this bad admin reverting has occurred, and what does this page have to do with it. --[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 00:17, 16 September 2017 (UTC)