View source for Talk:Kino's Journey

{{WikiProject Video games|class=C|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Anime and manga
 | class=C |b1=n|b2=n|b3=y|b4=y|b5=y|b6=y
 | importance=mid
 | past-collaboration=[[October 7]] [[2006]]
 | past-collaboration-before=79027370
 | past-collaboration-after=80203711
}}
{{Refideas
| {{Cite news |last=Gifford |first=Kevin |title=Kino's Journey Complete Collection |work=Newtype USA |volume=4 |issue=11 |publisher=A.D. Vision |page=149 |date=November 2005 |issn=1541-4817 }}
| {{Cite web |last=Beard |first=Jeremy A. |url=http://www.themanime.org/viewreview.php?id=752 |title=Kino's Journey |work=T.H.E.M. Anime Reviews |date=4 August 2004 }} – Date can be found at http://www.themanime.org/viewnews.php?m&#61;8&amp;y&#61;2004
| http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2017-09-29/our-most-anticipated-anime-of-fall-2017/.121996
| http://www.anime-now.com/entry/2017/10/14/020018
}}
{{archive box|auto=yes}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config
|maxarchivesize = 100K
|counter = 1
|algo = old(30d)
|archive = Talk:Kino's Journey/Archive %(counter)d
}}

== Broken Links ==

3/5 of the external links were broken.  I removed them. [[User:LaesaMajestas|LaesaMajestas]] ([[User talk:LaesaMajestas|talk]]) 14:19, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

== Maeda Ai ==

There seem to be contradictions on Wikipedia over who voices Kino.
On two pages ([[Ai Maeda (actress)]] and [[Ai Maeda (voice actress)]]) seperate people with the same name are credited for voicing Kino.
Which one is it? Which page is wrong?  <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/89.17.134.9|89.17.134.9]] ([[User talk:89.17.134.9|talk]]) 12:19, 5 March 2016 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:[[Ai Maeda (actress)]] voices Kino.--<span style="background:white;color:">[[User:Juhachi|'''<font color="black">十</font>''']][[User talk:Juhachi|'''<font color="red">八</font>''']]</span> 13:12, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
::I have corrected the Voice Actresses page accordingly.13:32, 5 March 2016 (UTC)  <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/89.17.134.9|89.17.134.9]] ([[User talk:89.17.134.9|talk]]) </small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 8 external links on [[Kino's Journey]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=779003749 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.kinosjourney.com/tv.shtml
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090115091925/http://www.honya-town.co.jp/hst/HTdispatch?nips_cd=997877193X to http://www.honya-town.co.jp/hst/HTdispatch?nips_cd=997877193X
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080315111729/http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/topics/070320_moviefes/index.php to http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/topics/070320_moviefes/index.php
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080331080854/http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/d_original/kino/page2.php to http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/d_original/kino/page2.php
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080325020825/http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/d_original/kino/kino1.php to http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/d_original/kino/kino1.php
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080327070710/http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/d_original/kino/kino2/system.php to http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/d_original/kino/kino2/system.php
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080327070705/http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/d_original/kino/kino2/special.php to http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/d_original/kino/kino2/special.php
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080418073257/http://www.animeondvd.com/reviews2/manga/manga.php?manga_view=2794 to http://www.animeondvd.com/reviews2/manga/manga.php?manga_view=2794

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 13:01, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

== Kino's gender ==

I'm responsible for edit [[Special:Diff/789417942/792197183|"Primary sources indicate that Kino doesn't identify as female"]], which was later undone by [[Special:Diff/796172330/796388445|"Primary sources acknowledge that Kino is a girl. And at this point it is no longer a spoiler. Please check the history page of this wiki before changing stuff to avoid an edit war."]] Looking at the history, I see some previous edits in which "she" pronouns for Kino were removed on the grounds that Kino's biological sex is a spoiler, and later restored in accordance with Wikipedia's policy on spoilers. I'm not disputing that Kino is biologically female, and I included that information in my edit, but as I explained in my edit with evidence from several primary sources, Kino's gender identity appears to be non-binary, and I believe they should be referred to with "they" pronouns accordingly. Unless anyone can find a primary source showing that Kino's gender identity (as opposed to biological sex) is female, I'd like to reinstate my edit. [[User:Eclipsephiasco|Eclipsephiasco]] ([[User talk:Eclipsephiasco|talk]]) 20:28, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
:For my part, things like "appears to be non-binary" indicates that there is no concrete evidence for that, and you're just speculating based on circumstantial evidence that you're interpreting.--<span style="background:white;color:">[[User:Juhachi|'''<font color="black">十</font>''']][[User talk:Juhachi|'''<font color="red">八</font>''']]</span> 21:50, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
::I agree there's no source that explicitly identifies Kino as non-binary, but as I point out in the explanation I added to the article, the case is pretty strong. The original light novels make a deliberate effort not to use any pronouns for Kino, they use the soft-masculine pronoun "boku" for themself, and there are scenes in the novels and the anime where they object to being addressed with the feminine title "ojou-chan". While there's no conclusive proof in either direction, this evidence is far from circumstantial in my opinion. I hope you'll agree that it's at least ''unclear'' whether Kino identifies as female or non-binary, and I think that ambiguity is worth discussing in the article. And as long as we're acknowledging that it's unclear, I think it's most appropriate to use "they" pronouns, not to indicate that Kino's gender is definitely non-binary but to acknowledge that we're not sure what it is. [[User:Eclipsephiasco|Eclipsephiasco]] ([[User talk:Eclipsephiasco|talk]]) 03:30, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
:::Actually, all of those things are circumstantial. Firstly, the Japanese language doesn't normally use gendered pronouns except in certain, specific cases, so that's already a non-starter. Second, "boku" can and has been used by a wide-range of female characters in anime/manga/novels/video games, so that really doesn't prove one way or the other. Thirdly, "ojou-chan" can be seen in some cases as a [[pejorative]] [[diminutive]] expression, somewhat akin to calling someone "little girl" or "girly", and Kino could just as easily be objecting to its pejorative connotation instead of its gendered denotation. So if we just leave out all the [[WP:NOR|original research]], defaulting to the biological sex should probably be what should happen because the fact is, it's up to interpretation whether "they" would be appropriate or not for this character, and there really is no concrete evidence that I've seen to support that interpretation.--<span style="background:white;color:">[[User:Juhachi|'''<font color="black">十</font>''']][[User talk:Juhachi|'''<font color="red">八</font>''']]</span> 05:21, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
::::One would normally expect the third person narration in the light novels to use the third-person female pronoun "kanojo" frequently when describing Kino, rather than always referring to Kino by name, if they weren't deliberately avoiding "kanojo". I agree that your interpretations of my other points are valid, and that none of my evidence in support of the "non-binary" hypothesis is conclusive; but the only evidence in support of the "female" hypothesis is the implicit assumption, unsupported by any of the source media, that Kino is cisgendered. I think there's enough evidence here that the "non-binary" interpretation is no less plausible than the "female" interpretation, and all the primary sources are silent on the actual answer to this question. The very fact that it's "up to interpretation" and never conclusively resolved in the source text means that this question is worth discussing in the article. [[User:Eclipsephiasco|Eclipsephiasco]] ([[User talk:Eclipsephiasco|talk]]) 08:07, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
:::::Actually, a quirk of Japanese is that the name of a person is used to refer to them almost always instead of gendered pronouns, "him" (kare) and "her" (kanojo), as using the name is considered more polite, so the author wasn't trying to avoid "kanojo" because Japanese just doesn't work like that. If Kino's gender is ambiguous, that's worth pointing out, but anything beyond that I feel would be original research based on an interpretation of circumstantial evidence.--<span style="background:white;color:">[[User:Juhachi|'''<font color="black">十</font>''']][[User talk:Juhachi|'''<font color="red">八</font>''']]</span> 10:45, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
::::::In personal conversations about existing people those pronouns are avoided, but omniscient-third-person narrators of fictional works aren't "polite" to their characters in the same way, and normally use such pronouns frequently. I also see almost no "original research" in my edit; aside from "However, in the present Kino does not seem to identify as female or male, and objects to being addressed as a girl or as a boy", which I agree is debatable, all I'm doing is stating verifiable facts directly from my cited sources. Meanwhile I haven't seen any verifiable sources to support the assertion that Kino's gender is female, so I'm not sure why that should be the default assumption. Here's my proposal for how the relevant section of the article should read: <blockquote>Kino is the main protagonist in the series and travels to different countries with their talking motorcycle Hermes, discovering the various countries' cultures and people. Kino is skilled in combat, carrying both guns and knives, and is accustomed to life as a traveler. To those they meet, they are invariably polite and answer questions directly. In the novels and anime, Kino's gender presentation is ambiguous: they dress in baggy motorcycle gear and use the first-person pronoun "boku", a "soft-masculine" pronoun also sometimes used by girls.<ref>{{cite web|title=The many ways to say "I"|url=http://nihonshock.com/2009/11/the-many-ways-to-say-i/|website=Nihonshock|accessdate=25 July 2017}}</ref> In the novels, the third-person narration only refers to Kino by name and never with gendered pronouns, and Kino is sometimes addressed as a girl and sometimes as a boy by different people they meet.<ref name="novel">{{cite book|last1=Sigsawa|first1=Keiichi|title={{Nihongo|Kino's Journey - the Beautiful World|キノの旅　the Beautiful World}}|date=2000|publisher=Media Works|location=Tokyo|isbn=9784840215855}}</ref> In the story {{Nihongo|''Country of Adults -Natural Rights-''|大人の国 -Natural Rights-}}, Kino recalls living as a girl in the Country of Adults before meeting Hermes and borrowing the name "Kino" from another traveler.<ref name="novel"/>{{rp|166-198}} However, after their departure from the Country of Adults, Kino appears to reject a static gender and become "simply Kino."<ref>{{cite journal|last1=Malone|first1=Sheila|date=December 2014|title=Androgynous Punk as Postfeminist Signifying Strategy of Transgression Within Subcultures: Punk Aesthetic as Gender De[con]struction in the Trilogy Film Series "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" and the Anime Series "Kino's Journey"|url=http://contentionjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/MaloneDec2014.pdf|journal=Contention: The Multidisciplinary Journal of Social Protest|volume=2|issue=1|pages=57-68|issn=2330-1392|access-date=28 September 2017}}</ref></blockquote> As far as I can see, there's no original analysis or synthesis there (note the inclusion of a new scholarly source commenting on Kino's rejection of gender). [[User:Eclipsephiasco|Eclipsephiasco]] ([[User talk:Eclipsephiasco|talk]]) 15:26, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
:::::::"In personal conversations about existing people those pronouns are avoided, but omniscient-third-person narrators of fictional works aren't "polite" to their characters in the same way, and normally use such pronouns frequently." Yeah, in English, but like I said, Japanese just doesn't work like that. Beyond politeness, it's also about context. Japanese is heavily based on context, and to specify who is being referred to, names are almost always used in place of gendered pronouns; that's just how the language is constructed, so like I said, it's a non-starter because of the nature of the Japanese language. And the reason why your interpretation is based largely on original research is because of [[WP:SYNTHESIS|synthesis]]. You're using how Kino dresses and Kino's use of "boku" to advance an interpretation not expressly given in the series, i.e. that Kino does not identify as either male or female. The fact that Kino is addressed as both a girl and a boy by different people also means nothing, because that's how other characters interpret Kino, and has nothing to do with Kino personally. Furthermore, you even point out that Kino lived as a girl, but you're interpreting becoming "simply Kino" as ''appearing'' to "reject a static gender", which is an interpretation to advance an idea not specifically in the series, which is the whole definition of synthesis. If you have to use words like "appear" or "seem to", that's a dead give away that you're interpreting something and it's original research.--<span style="background:white;color:">[[User:Juhachi|'''<font color="black">十</font>''']][[User talk:Juhachi|'''<font color="red">八</font>''']]</span> 20:31, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
:::Having read the previous arguments, I am not convinced that Kino should be referred to in the plural. However the ambiguity of how she appears to people remains. I agree that the statement from Martin Wisse "Generally, Kino talks using  gender neutral pronouns in Japanese, rather than using those stereotypically (sic) reserved for men or women. " is probably appropriate (given that I do not speak Japanese and must accept that interpretation) and could be included in an expanded Character entry to better explain the situation and place her characteristics within the overall context of her character. eg:
:::::"Kino is the main protagonist in the series and travels to different countries with her talking motorcycle Hermes, discovering their cultures and people. She is skilled in combat, using both guns and knives, and is accustomed to life as a traveler. To those she meets, she is invariably polite and answers questions directly and tries not to interfere or become involved in the affairs of the country, although sometimes she does. In the anime, Kino's gender is intentionally ambiguous and in her travelling clothes she looks like a young man. To maintain this ambiguity, Kino generally talks using gender neutral pronouns in Japanese, rather than using those stereotypically reserved for men or women. In the fourth episode it is confirmed that she is female. This is when she first met the male traveler "Kino" who rebuilt the motorcycle Hermes and whose name she later adopted."
::::[[User:Ozflashman|Ozflashman]] ([[User talk:Ozflashman|talk]]) 21:24, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
:::::"Kino generally talks using gender neutral pronouns in Japanese, rather than using those stereotypically reserved for men or women." That is not true at all. Kino uses "boku", [[Japanese pronouns#List of Japanese personal pronouns|which is mainly used by males]]. And besides, as I stated above, "boku" can and has been used by a wide-range of female characters in anime/manga/novels/video games, so her use of it doesn't specifically point to a gender identity, but it is certainly not "neutral" as that one editor claimed.--<span style="background:white;color:">[[User:Juhachi|<b style="color: black;">十</b>]][[User talk:Juhachi|<b style="color: red;">八</b>]]</span> 03:51, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
:::Following that comment, the amended text could read:
:::::"Kino is the main protagonist in the series and travels to different countries with her talking motorcycle Hermes, discovering their cultures and people. She is skilled in combat, using both guns and knives, and is accustomed to life as a traveler. To those she meets, she is invariably polite and tries not to interfere or become involved in the affairs of the country, although sometimes she does. In the anime, Kino's gender is intentionally ambiguous and in her travelling clothes she looks like a young man. She was born in The Country of Adults and escaped after the original Kino, the male traveler who befriended her, was killed saving her life. Later she adopted his name."
:::Please note that some of the other entries also need some clarification, eg. Hermes' origin, the death of the original Kino, etc, but should be done after the issue of Kino's entry is resolved. [[User:Ozflashman|Ozflashman]] ([[User talk:Ozflashman|talk]]) 05:30, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

ok but hear me out here..... just because they're assigned female at birth doesn't mean they identify with being female. labelling them as female when they refuse to label themself is pretty transphobic if you ask me, plus for the most part their gender identity is up to interpretation. if you interpret them as female because they were born female, thats good on you! but officially, in the source, they actively defy gender labels. additionally, they're seen to use both labels referring to themself, even in english translations. they're recognized as nonbinary by a lottt of people/sources and i really dont think its fair to take that away from people :] and a little bit of neutral pronouns aint hurting anyone. your transphobia is showing </3

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on [[Kino's Journey]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/814807054|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080508201747/http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/d_original/kino/kino2.php to http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/d_original/kino/kino2.php
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080224044034/http://www.kinonotabi.com/dvd.html to http://www.kinonotabi.com/dvd.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080403055239/http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/d_original/kino/page5.php to http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/d_original/kino/page5.php
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080315105147/http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/users_s/d_hp/archive_hp/hp_11_20.php to http://www.mediaworks.co.jp/users_s/d_hp/archive_hp/hp_11_20.php

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 01:28, 11 December 2017 (UTC)