Talk:American Revolutionary War/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

→

Archive 10

Patriots

There is currently a discussion going on at Talk:Indian Rebellion of 1857/Archive 2#Indian patriots? of the use of the phrase "Indian patriots" which was put into the text after some editors objected to the word "freedom fighters" because as it says in the Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Extremist, terrorist and freedom fighter. "Extremism and terrorism are pejorative terms. They are words with intrinsically negative connotations that are generally applied to one's enemies and opponents, or to those with whom one disagrees and whose opinions and actions one would prefer to ignore. Use of the terms "extremist", "terrorist" and "Freedom fighter" implies a moral judgment; and if one party can successfully attach the label to a group, then it has indirectly persuaded others to adopt its moral viewpoint."

Does the phrase "American Patriots" carry the same connotation as "freedom fighter"? For example should the phrase "British patriots" be added to the info box to present a neutral POV? It seems to me that the phrase "American colonial rebels" could be used in place of "American Patriots" and it would be no less an accurate POV. I am not suggesting that such a provocative label is used, but if American patriot is to be used in this article then it is likely to occur in all the war of independence articles in place of Freedom fighter unless there is a specific reason for using it in this one. --Philip Baird Shearer 13:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Loyalists

"The need to retain Loyalist allegiance also meant that the British were unable to use the harsh methods of suppressing rebellion they employed in Ireland and Scotland. Even with these limitations, many potentially neutral colonists were nonetheless driven into the ranks of the Revolutionaries because of the war.[23]" What harsh methods were employed in ireland and scotland, and why were they ineffective in the US? Is it because there was a ruling class set up in ireland/scotland?Edg126 18:18, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

While I'm no expert at UK history, I believe the methods employed were the use of torture against those disloyal. They would have been ineffective here in the US as they could end up being used as propaganda. Black Harry • Happy Independence Day 18:21, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Not predominantly torture, but harsh pacification though execution, deportation as indentured labours and wanton destruction. See for Ireland Irish Rebellion, Cromwellian conquest of Ireland and Williamite War in Ireland, for Scotland Jacobite rising and Highland Clearances. Debatable if the need to retain Loyalist allegiances was the main reason, probably more to do with the lack of religious differences (Actions like the Bloody Assizes a big issue in England, get little criticism in Protestant England and Lowland Scotland (the Highlands were Catholic) when similar things were done in Ireland) and the geographic scale of the east coast of America. But this is all my speculation, the current text needs a source to support this type of speculation. --Philip Baird Shearer 12:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

George III

The infobox states that King George III was a British military commander. That can't be right . . . right? Funnyhat 04:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Hessian mercenaries

Can someone write article aboun hessian mercenaries during The American Revolutionary War?--Vojvodaen 14:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

On the subject of the Hessians, this wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hessian

states that they were not mercenaries but conscripted soldiers sent by various states of Germany as well as the Kings own subjects from Hanover (the majority coming from Hesse hence the name).

Should the two articles not be made consistent, i.e. they are either mercenaries in both articles or not in both, at the same time in regards to the flag of Hesse in the combatants section, should the other states they came from also be shown via flags or a flag for the German contigent just omitted? --EnigmaMcmxc 12:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Spain - Spanish Empire

There was no german Empire (the Empire was \spain), and you didn`t say French Empire or English Empire, so this is the same case, the Spanish support came from Spain (of course, from all the provinces), but from Spain (and the debt generated by the arms and cannons bought to give to the rebels was in Spain, and it remain in Spain), and the support was the support of Spain.

SPQR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.1.60.111 (talk) 20:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: Delisted

In order to uphold the quality of Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the requirements of the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. Unfortunately, as of October 8, 2007, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAN. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GA/R. The article was given GA status back in 2005 without a review and since then the GA criteria has changed significantly. Although the article currently has a good number of inline citations, several sections throughout the article are lacking sources. Go through the article and add an inline citation for any statement that a reader may question over its verifiability. If you can find sources online, feel free to include those, although book sources are always great, which this article uses a lot of. Due to the length of the article, the lead should also be expanded to three or four paragraphs to better summarize the article. For more information, see WP:LEAD. However, the rest of the article looks fine considering meeting the broad, NPOV, and image requirements. Again, if you address these issues and check the article against the rest of the GA criteria, consider renominating the article at WP:GAN and let me know and I'll look it over again (so you can avoid the current month+ backlog). If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article's history to reflect this review. Regards, --Nehrams2020 19:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Copyedit of France in the American Revolutionary War

I've added that to the to-do list, it badly needs it--Victor falk 00:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Wrong duration & start date for American Revolutionary War, it should be Oct. 10, 1774, Battle of Point Pleasant

The American Revolutionary War pages describe in several places the war beginning in 1775, but on February 17, 1908, the United States Senate passed Bill Number 160 declaring the Battle of Point Pleasant the first battle of the American Revolutionary War. The Battle of Point Pleasant took place on Oct. 10, 1774 and since this has been made official U.S. historical fact by the Senate, this fact should not be overlooked, omitted, nor neglected in the ARW pages. Consistenthistory 20:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Not exactly overlooked - it is cited at the very beginning of the linked companion article on the Battles of Lexington and Concord. However, following the citation trail leads to a record of virtually total skepticism or rejection by historians. The Senate can pass resolutions but it cannot legislate facts. Hertz1888 20:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Civil War?

See also above #Civil War

I cut the last paragraph from the introduction, and bring this here for discussion:

People are beginning to describe the American Revolution (though not common) as a civil war between those of the British Royal Troops and British Republican Colonists. This has been brought about because many believe it can be misleading to say "Americans vs British", when at the time, "Americans" still considered themselves British, even though they were citizens of a new nation.

The tone of this whole paragraph is highly speculative and sounds like original research. Who, for example, are these "people" who are "beginning to describe the American Revolution... as a civil war"? The two fact tags with this has been affixed are an indication that I am not the only one who finds this problematic. My personal feeling is that there should never be any fact tags in the introduction to an article. Any assertion that is not referenced should be cut. Any thoughts on this matter? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:59, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree -- the paragraph should have been removed for the reasons you stated. Tom (North Shoreman) 00:15, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Military Commanders: May be one missing

The table to the side has a section of military commanders. the section is missing Benidict Arnold who was a major player in the war and a Commander for the U.S. and was appointed to Brigadier General by the British for his treachery. he should be mentioned there, perhaps a key should be formed to show that he was a traitor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.200.173.251 (talk) 00:09, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

American Revolutionary War vs. “War of independence”

See also Talk:American Revolutionary War/Archive 1#Title and scope of this article, #The Title of This Article

At the school I wrote an article about the British Empire. When the text was returned to us, the word:"American Revolutionary War" was marked with a red colour(wrong). My English teacher told me later that the war from 1775-1783 was called "the War of independence" not the "American Revolutionary War"

Why is the Title of this article "American Revolutionary War" and not “War of independence”? --?.  The great Darren shan fan  13:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

(I am not from an english speaking country) wrongs may occure in this question! If u find some, plese report back to me I want to learn from my wrongs.

Because it's part of american mythology to believe they launched a Revolution against oppression and weren't simply an independence movement. I'm not saying it wasn't a true revolution, but it does imply some POV. Theamazingzeno (talk) 21:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

American English has always referred to the U.S. war of independence as the "Revolution". Both the Wikipedia and Wiktionary definitions of "revolution" are broad enough to incorporate national independence movements like the one here in the U.S. The big difference is that in American English the "Revolution" (or war of independence) ended with either Lord Cornwallis' surrender at the Siege of Yorktown or, more properly, the Treaty of Paris (1783); but in the other (mainly non-American) sense of the word, the resulting social and political revolution has continued to this day. (There's a famous quote to the effect that revolutions claiming to have a definite end, like ours, seem to last longer than those that claimed to carry on, like communism.) That distinction likely influences Wikipedia's use of "American Revolution" for the social and political aspects of U.S. independence, while this article covers the military aspects. --RBBrittain (talk) 17:36, 1 March 2008 (UTC) (an American)

Clean slate

I wonder if it isn't time to archive this page and start afresh. Maybe the experienced could ouline some objectives for this quarter with a list of articles that need some cleanup. Just a thought.--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 03:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Number of prisoners who died

Prison Ship Martyrs' Monument says 11,500 dead. The article here says:

"An estimated 25,000 American Revolutionaries died during active military service. About 8,000 of these deaths were in battle; the other 17,000 deaths were from disease, including about 8,000 who died while prisoners of war."

I don't know what is right. I am just pointing out the discrepancy. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

And the article HMS Jersey (1736), about one of the prison ships on which those honored at the monument died, gives yet another set of numbers, some of which contradict this article (and the monument article as well) while others don't. After more than 200 years, it's highly unlikely there will ever be an absolute, definitive count of those who died in this war on either side, especially POWs.

Remember that the laws of war as we know them today didn't exist then; humane treatment of POWs was only an unwritten European custom, which the British may not have felt bound to in what they saw as a civil war (much like modern-day historians' view--contrary to tradition--that the Alamo did have survivors, but they were executed on the spot by Santa Anna as traitors; that was also his reason for the Goliad Massacre). --RBBrittain (talk) 18:05, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

That's interesting. Thanks for the reply. Maybe someone can put all the numbers and sources. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Relevance?

Meanwhile, Native Americans and African Americans served on both sides.

Just questioning the relevance of this statement in the opening paragraph - While true, the statement does not really flow with the intended overall point of the opening paragraph. Perhaps it would be better suited in the Historical Assessment area?

JHM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.124.104.190 (talk) 12:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Loyalists

See also Talk:American Revolutionary War/Archive 1#NPOV terms: rebels, patriots, etc., #Civil War, #Civil War?

The article has a problem of American nationalism woven in it from start (the title) to end. A way to help end this thread would be to include a section or at least a paragraph near the beginning of this article explaining that the population of the 13 colonies were not universally on the side of the patriots/rebels. It needs to explain that some were ardent one way or another and that others were neutral (or just wanted a quiet life). At the moment the way this article is written is that it was us Americans against those Brits with no implication that it was also a civil war within the colonies.

At the moment without such a paragraph the article has a bias. I could go through the article and highlight what I perceive to be an American nationalist bias, but I will just highlight a couple near the start. In the lead the article implies it was all colonists were in favour of independence eg: "The war was the culmination of the political American Revolution, whereby the colonists " instead of "colonies" and another example in the first section "When the war began, the British Colonists ("Americans") did not have a professional army or navy. ... the Americans were particularly effective at suppressing Loyalist activity when British regulars were not in the area." The definition supplied for Americans is "British Colonists" so what were the Loyalists if not Americans? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 12:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Historical assessment

Describing the war as a civil war within the British Empire needs further explanation because by that logic so were "The Fifteen", "The Forty-Five" and the Anglo Irish War although few would describe them as such. The section "Historical assessment" very badly needs to cite sources. Facts are easy to find in many text books and almanacs, but analysis is not and is laden with points of view, so this section more than most needs citations.

Not only that the the wording of this section is confusing for example " but in their own way, two different nations or factions" what does that mean? English Cavaliers and Roundheads were not from different nations so presumably we are talking about Americans and Britons, or are we? It is not clear. It would also be a good move to replace phrases like "One could argue" with "Smith has argued" (substitute Smith with a scholar's name) and a citation at the end of the sentence otherwise it looks like "original research--Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 12:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

There has been considerable vandalism on battles, with battles being altered to American victories when they clearly aren't such as Harlem Heights or White Plains, one which was a draw and the second being a British tactical victory. Therefore, I propose that all pages on the American Revolutionary War be semi-protected. (Trip Johnson (talk) 20:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC))

Flags and WP:MILHIST

I can't find the part of WP:MILHIST that says that flags should not be included in the military conflict infobox. Could someone point me in the right direction, and/or explain the reasoning behind the decision. It seems to me that the flags can only add to the clarity of the infobox. -- Nidator ^{T / C} 17:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The relevant guideline is to be found here. I think this article qualifies (compare with the example article, Battle of the Atlantic (1939–1945)), so I will include the flags again. -- Nidator ^{T / C} 18:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Article Re-writes needed URGENTLY

A certain wiki-goer is editing battles using myrevolutionarywar.com, which in my opinion, is a very unreliable source, as much of it is copied and / or edited information from Wikipedia. Urgent article re-writes are required (Trip Johnson (talk) 19:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC))

I believe britishbattles.com is a very unreliable source. (Red4tribe (talk) 20:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC))

Why? Because it states Harlem Heights as a draw and White Plains as a victory? Because it is not written by a six year old, like myrevolutionarywar is? Oh sorry, that site is just copied and slightly altered material from Wikipedia, so therefore it should not be used as a reliable source. Or is britishbattles an unreliable site because it is a British site and therefore it must be biased? Can't you see that the site you use is mostly copied and altered material from Wikipedia? It is written by someone who doesn't even know history for christ's sake! It should NOT be used as a source for wiki information, as it is not reliable. Many sources I came across state that at Brandywine, British losses were around 550, not 1,000. Losses were never that high for the British. These articles were accurate until you began editing them with unreliable information. (Trip Johnson (talk) 21:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC))

Trip, it is no secret that you are not fond of Ameirica. I have looked back at you last 500 edits and you have made ridiculous claims such as the war of 1812 was a British Victory(but lets not get into that now, and personally, I have nothing againstthe UK or bias for the US so lets not get into that either). You have also been stalking me, changing most recent edits I have made. British battles is a British site, clearly written by someone favoring the British and giving the best possible benifiet. I havecompared it up with many sites(such as my revolutionary war and many others, I do not know if they are American or not) and it constantly comes up as giving the British the better look on things.Why is it that every time I list a reference, from anywhere, it is clearly(in your opinion) a biased American site but when you list a British site is gives a perfectly good view on things? If you wish me for to give you the links to the other sites, just ask. Where is your evidence that they copy off of wikipedia? I would like to see that. (Red4tribe (talk) 21:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC))

I am fond of America. In fact, some of my best friends are American. I even applaud the American military in some battles that I come across, such as Mogadishu, Trenton, Cowpens and Monmouth. I even admire what Morgan did at Cowpens, because of his clever strategy, that has become the basis for many of my fights on strategy games. Don't make accusations without proof. I just don't like your edits. All you need to do is look at the content on myrevolutionarywar to see that a great deal of it is copied information (unless I am thinking of another site). Britishbattles is not biased. Look at the Battle of Lexington. It states "The British suffered extensive loss. The Americans considered the contest an encouraging start to the war". If it was biased towards the British it would say Winner: The British on the grounds they destroyed some supplies. It even calls them Americans there and then, when technically they weren't. I claimed the War of 1812 as a British STRATEGIC victory on the grounds that the US war aim of taking Canada failed, and that they ended the war holding some American territory. Its not that hard to bloody figure out. And I have been stalking you? Who was it that edited Harlem Heights and White Plains to American victories? I am policing Wikipedia areas in which false information is being added. Come on, what is the likelyhood of over 350 DEATHS being taken in one battle, and just 400 wounded? That is totally ridiculous. The losses are totally out of proportion. Look at New Orleans roughly the same amount of dead was taken, and there was nearly 1,200 wounded. Either the Americans managed to bayonet over 200 British and Hessian soldiers, or they were using 3 pounders in place of muskets. Claims that Trenton was a "Decisive victory" on the field aswell, when it wasn't. It wasn't even Trenton that won back New Jersey. You have been making edits which contradicts the information in the article. For example, edits on Princeton that the American suffered "30 killed" when further down it says 46 American soldiers were killed at Princeton, mostly by Mawhood's troops. Ridiculous claims that the British lost over 300 dead at Brandywine, while further down the official records from the battle states that there was 93 dead. I'm not saying don't use the source, just don't use it for casualty records, because that site is notorious for getting them wrong. Weapons in that era wasn't powerful enough to inflict that many dead, most of the casualties on the field would have been wounded, for the enemy to sustain 300 dead, a huge, sustained or multiple attack(s) would have had to have been launched such as at New Orleans, Bunker Hill or Fort Carillon. Just use a more reliable source, or just leave the reverted edits as they are. (Trip Johnson (talk) 23:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC))

Lets look at it this way. If Wales secceded from England and Scottland and France and Wals both declared war on England. Obviously this will not happen but lets just say it does. The English invasion of Wales goes horribly wrong, the French come and burn the center of London, but then are defeated at the Battle of Livepool. Both sides make peaace and things return to as they were before. That is what happened in The War of 1812 just in a different location. Neither side is victorious. If you give me some evidence as to houw myrevolutionarywar copies form wikipedia, prehaps it could be diposed as a reliable reference. But you have yet to give that to me and I have not noticed anything. I will say, I was very surprised by the high loss totals in Brandwyine, I did not believe it was that high originally myself, but I would like evidence to dipose of it. I do not mean to say that British Battles is not reliable for anything, I just feel it favors to the British side it casulty lists, outcome of battles, etc. (Red4tribe (talk) 01:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC))

How can it favour them in terms of the outcome of battles and casualty lists if that was what actually happened? Its not our fault the British won most of the battles during the war. How can casualty lists favour the British? Higher losses clearly stated at Lexington, Bunker Hill. Emphasis on the decisive defeats at Saratoga and Yorktown. Losses even exceed those on Wikipedia, for battles such as Germantown. It states 550 casualties if I remember correctly to the American's 1,000. Not that far off. If you click on "American Revolutionary War" it demonstrates how inefficient the British Army was at the time; how there was no education for officers, hardly no discipline / training in peacetime, destroying the American myth that they were fighting a bullet proof steamroller of an army. Therefore, I don't see how it can possibly be biased. Let's not go into the War of 1812, because we will be here all bloody day. As for myrevolutionarywar; here is a bit:

'The Americans—under Generals George Washington, Nathanael Greene, and Israel Putnam, totaling around 2,000 men—held a series of high ground positions in upper Manhattan against an attacking British division totaling around 5,000 men under the command of General Alexander Leslie. British troops made what became a tactical error by sounding a fox hunt bugle call while in pursuit, meant to insult the Continentals, who were in orderly retreat. This instead infuriated the Americans who galvanized to hold their ground and rallied for victory (though the battle is taken as a draw).'.

If you look back through my previous edits for the Battle of Harlem Heights, there is a statement that is almost, if not, identical to that. It has been slightly altered, but the statement there now is virtually the same:

The Americans—under Generals George Washington, Nathanael Greene, and Israel Putnam, totaling around 2,000 men—held a series of high ground positions in upper Manhattan against an attacking British division totaling around 5,000 men under the command of General Alexander Leslie. British troops made what became a tactical error by sounding a fox hunt bugle call while in pursuit, meant to insult the Continentals, who were in orderly retreat. This instead infuriated the Americans who galvanized to hold their ground.

The statement, (though the battle is taken as a draw) was put on Wikipedia by me, which is why I was surprised to find the same opening statement, along with my edit on myrevolutionarywar.com

(Trip Johnson (talk) 11:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC))

Myrevolutionarywar for Harlem Heights was created in 1999(even before wikipedia was started). The page on wikipedia for Halrem Heights 2004. So, what probably happened was that whoever wrote the fox hunt on wiki copied and slightly edited it from myrevolutionarywar. (Red4tribe (talk) 15:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC))

So how is it I wrote the line, without even looking at myrevoultionarywar, the line: (though the battle is taken as a draw) on WIKIPEDIA, then a week later, that same line appeared on myrevolutionarywar? (Trip Johnson (talk) 17:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC))

I looked back on your previous edits on the battle of harlem heights. You did not write that whole paragraph. You merely changed the last few words of the paragraph to "The battle however, ended Indecisively. " It was probably changed to its current ending by you or someone else later that week. Previous to this edit you made, you had only made 1 edit and that was to undo my1st change to the result to an American Victory. Thus, my original reasoning stands(and it is a reliable reference). Whoever originally wrote that paragraph copied, and changeda few words from the myrevolutionarywar website. It is the oppisite of what you have said. Here is the link to your change http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Harlem_Heights&diff=202370128&oldid=202370022(Red4tribe (talk) 19:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC))

If you actually read what I wrote properly, I said I did not write the whole paragraph, I said I just wrote the line (though the battle is taken as a draw), which mysteriously appeared on myrevolutionarywar which gave me reason to believe it was copied. (Trip Johnson (talk) 11:41, 16 April 2008 (UTC))

I have looked back at previous pages of the battle of Harlem Heights on google and it has been there since the pagewas written, in 1999. 5 years before the battle of Harlem Heights was even created on here. Trip, do not start lying. Just because you don't believe a few things myrevolutinoary war says doesn't mean you need to go around making up stories about it. Clearly someone who originally made the article copied from myrevolutionarywar. (Red4tribe (talk) 12:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC))

Do NOT accuse me of lying. How dare you. Personally, I believe you, and your bumming buddy, Plains, are trying to bait me into an argument by making false claims of vandalism, and you, lying. How dare you make an accusation with no evidence. (Trip Johnson (talk) 17:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC))

Accuse you of lying? How can I not? You have blatantly lied to me about “your paragraph”. First you claim you wrote the paragraph. Then you claim you changed the last few words of it. You did neither. That paragraph has been on myrevolutionarywar since 1999, 5 years before the Wikipedia article on Harlem Heights was even created. My “bumming buddy” is correct in saying that you think you run Wikipedia, because you do. I am not the only person you have gotten into arguments with; it isn’t just some big coincidence. I would love to hear how myrevolutionarywar copied off of Wikipedia, they must have created some time machine. (Red4tribe (talk) 20:08, 16 April 2008 (UTC))

Sarcasm and false claims aside Red, I said I wrote the last statement, again you are deliberately reading falsely to fit your claims. I did not lie at all, maybe it was a spur of the moment thing. Oh and the line (though the battle was taken as a draw), which you clearly and deliberately think I did not write in, was my work. It surprised me to find it, and the exact same opening paragraph on myrevolutionarywar, which led me to believe it was not copied. I do not think I run Wikipedia. Was it not you who persistently vandalised Harlem Heights to a clear "American Victory", White Plains to a clear "American Victory", White Marsh to a clear "American victory" and Trenton to a decisive encounter based on YOUR assumption and some unreliable website? I think you've been living around the pro-patriotic American bunch too long (no offense to the Americans who aren't like this), you are just trying to believe what you want to believe, because the truth is confronting you. You and Plains need to sort out your egos, you two think YOU run Wikipedia not me. I have encountered many admins across many pages yelling at others to see that I obviously do not run Wikipedia. Though, given some of the tossers that are about, sometimes I wish I did. (Trip Johnson (talk) 22:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC))

This isn't an offical warning... yet. I'm going to suggest that you two knock this off now. Both of you need to get real history books, not go to the web, and read them slowly and carefully. There are many articles in wiki that are contraversial to say the least. In my time here as an editor I've found one of the single most useless wastes of time is arguing who won. I've seen it in battles as stupid as Borodino to wars like 1812 where who won is a matter of conjecture. If you have a side at all in these battles and wars its probably best not to edit at all but if you do you had best be citing everything you do to a couple of very reliable sources. If you can't do that then just don't edit at all. If I get the impression that there is edit warring going on the admins will be getting involved, nuff said. Tirronan (talk) 22:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Thankyou Tirronan (Trip Johnson (talk) 22:52, 16 April 2008 (UTC))

Thank you tirronan for your post. I'll behave if the other user simply let my vote against his version stay put and stop erasing it. I'm glad to see admin get involved. Good work. I'll stop my little game since I see you guys are on your game. (Plains2007 (talk) 23:00, 16 April 2008 (UTC))

I would love to see an admin involved. Prehaps Trips, it will interest you to know that when Harlem Heights was originally written, it was listed as an American Victory, until someone changed it. And to add onto that I listed 5 references, all which you threw away as "unreliable". Clearly it did not matter to you that 3 others agreed with me while none with you. As for the battle of white marsh, what is the point of having 15 words summeriaze a battle ,it is much more reasonable to leave it as an American Victory, because it was. It seems two others have alos undone your edits on that page. Also, for White Plains I added a reference that listed it as an American Victory you probably completley ignored it)but it was still changed. You said that you put " and rallied for victory (though the battle is taken as a draw)" on there? You did not. it was there before you did any editing. You changed that to "The battle however, ended Indecisively". The last thing I would like to know, is how is myrevolutionarywar unreliable is it didn't copy off of wikipedia? (Red4tribe (talk) 23:08, 16 April 2008 (UTC))

Sigh. I bet you are one of these people who likes to pretend they are American, you get such a boner over the United States and the need for putting American victories on battles whereby they withdrew. Oh I forgot, one or two extra casualties qualifies as a victory. Britain won a hell of alot of wars then. Hey, Germany even won World War 2 on that regard! Now, Tirronan has just stated above that we drop this, and I am quite willing to do that. You, on the other hand are not. You keep on vandalising these pages and deleting my references. You continue to try and continue this discussion / argument by putting up re-worded insults and false claims. When, oh when, Red are you going to stop being such a persistent virus of a person? (Trip Johnson (talk) 00:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC))

Sure. I'll drop it. Just answer my questions first. You have no reference for White Marsh or any other battle I am reverting. I have added references. (Red4tribe (talk) 00:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC))

One thing I will promise is if there is so much as a another single insult throw I'll post the complaint myself WP:CIV. To both, if you can't cite it don't do it. I might suggest a wikibreak. Allow other editors to look at this thing for a bit ok? I've about 3 tons of sources myself and I think others do as well. Tirronan (talk) 00:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Not clear if the matter is dead and over, but I'm assuming that the makers of myrevolutionarywar.com are the same as mywarof1812. In the effort of full disclosure, I've not gone to myrevolutionarywar, but I have gone to its sister 1812 website frequently and I can vouch that its material is deeply inaccurate. I'd say that if the 1812 site is any indicator of the quality of the material for the website duo, it would be best to not use either. Auror (talk) 00:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

myrevolutionarywar.com is actually quite accurate and it is unfortunate that it's name continues to be slandered. To claim that White Plains was a draw or win for the British is an outright and unfounded lie.