View source for Talk:Annie Duke

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{{Connected contributor (paid)|User1=WWB Too |U1-employer=Beutler Ink|U1-client=Annie Duke}}

== Her tattoo ==
"Say yes when nobody asked", which is a Lao proverb.
What does this proverb suppose to mean? Yes to what? And what if they do ask, should you say no?
Not sure if I comprehend it, I'm guessing be optimistic...maybe... -- [[User:Sirex98|Sirex98]] 10:17, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

:Seems like it means one should volunteer for things which need to be done.  —[[user:EncMstr|EncMstr]] 23:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

== Edits to article ==

There seem to be significant problems with this article. It looked very nice, but actually, lacked specific sources for much of it (general "external links" don't substitute for actual sources and references), and also information was mostly not placed in ways that respected the sections.

I have pretty much left untouched the actual article content, but i have reworked it by merging sentences or moving them, to try and address these. I've also (unfortunately) had to tag several sections as "unreferenced". Details:

# Added as a cite on family and marriage matters, her 2002 Columbia bio. I chose this because it contained most of the bio facts that related to her life in general, such as her background and fathers career and marriage, and also because it seemed more in depth and perhaps less prone to glossing over than a bio on a poker site that might have a good reason to present matters in a non-neutral manner.
# Added some family matters that were omitted, such as children, and reworded the details of her move to Montana that conflicted with that article. Apparently she did not "[leave] academia to pursue family life with her husband", rather the article is quite specific, and cites her as saying she felt something was wrong with an academic career, and that this was after she had married and moved, not before.
# I have split her career as a pro, from her winnings.
# I reviewed the "Other ventures". much of it was actually not other ventures at all. It was a mix of family stuff, trivia, and the like, and a significant number of TV appearances. Cleaned up and moved as appropriate.
# I removed a couple of sentences, such as her game with Stephen Colbert, and the detailed descriptions of some of her appearances. Over detailed. That she appeared is the notable thing, not whether "deal or no deal" was delayed due to football overrunning that day.
# Removed some of the external links. There are many bios of her. It's best given the choice, to source bios from independent sources, which for a player of this stature exist, and not to link to every page which has an interview or reference.

A number of stated facts in the article need verifying, sourcing and referencing still. In general, a decent article but lacking cites. [[user:FT2|FT2]] <sup><span style="font-style:italic">([[User_talk:FT2|Talk]] | [[Special:Emailuser/FT2|email]])</span></sup> 04:23, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

How about a mention of her excellent breast augmentation while you're on body mods?  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Wolfmtnctr|Wolfmtnctr]] ([[User talk:Wolfmtnctr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Wolfmtnctr|contribs]]) 14:34, 14 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->



== Citation ==

Annie Duke appeared on Deal Or No Deal on NBC that aired on March 24, 2008.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.242.250.105|99.242.250.105]] ([[User talk:99.242.250.105|talk]]) 03:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Leaving UltimateBet ==

Annie Duke is leaving UltimateBet. It can be read about here: [http://www.pokernews.com/news/2011/01/pokernews-op-ed-where-will-hellmuth-duke-go-who-ll-be-the-ne-9579.htm] [[User:JaeDyWolf|JaeDyWolf ~ Baka-San]] ([[User talk:JaeDyWolf|talk]]) 15:52, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

== Epic Poker and other problems ==

{{edit COI|A}}
Greetings, all who have this watchlisted or may be visiting from another project page. I've recently started working with Proof Integrated Communications, which is building a new website for Annie Duke. They had planned to link to this entry from it, however they are concerned about a number of problems with it, and have asked me to see about addressing these—including some arguable [[WP:BLP]] violations. When I have a paid COI I avoid editing directly, so I'd appreciate another editor's help. 

Of most concern is the heavily slanted, factually-inaccurate section ''{{oldid|Annie_Duke|540475779#Epic_Poker_Scandal|Epic Poker Scandal}}''. If you have not recently read this section, I'd advise you to read through it carefully, with [[WP:UNDUE]] in mind, before continuing onward.

Some background: this section was added ({{diff|Annie Duke|prev|503612365|in a single edit}}) along with a related sentence in the article's introduction, by an editor with just 5 lifetime edits ([[Special:Contributions/Dablueman|see edit history]]) in a one-week period last year. The MoS-defying use of [[MOS:HEADINGS|title case]] and [[WP:LABEL|contentious label]] "Scandal" give some sense of the problem. Additionally, the section relies on [[WP:RELIABLE|non-RS]] sources: primarily commercial websites such as poker.org, cardplayer.com, and pocketfives.com, and those stories are in turn based on a primary source, [http://www.cardplayer.com/pdf/Federated-Sports-Finances.pdf a single filing] with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court from April 2012. Yet there are in fact established-RS, secondary sources available, including the ''Las Vegas Review-Journal'' to go on, and in these Annie Duke is mentioned only in passing. More about these below.

The existing section contains four sentences, each worth looking at separately. For reasons of length, I've placed it inside a collapsed box:

{{Collapse top|title=Critical summary of ''Epic Poker Scandal''}}

First sentence:

:{{xt|Anne Duke was co-founder, Executive Vice President[21] and League Commissioner[22] of the Epic Poker League during its short existence from 2011 until it filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy on February 28, 2012.[23]}}

Except for misspelling her name, the above is basically correct.

:{{xt|Epic poker generated only $37,052 in income during its short existence, however the bankruptcy filings show that Annie Duke paid herself $299,784 for her time as commissioner while Epic Poker amassed debts of over $8 million. [24]}}

First problem: the organization was led by Executive Chairman Jeffrey Pollack, former Commissioner of the World Series of Poker—not Duke—so it's just wrong to say she "paid herself". If the PDF linked above is correct, the $37,052 is probably true for operating income, but by omitting gifts, it understates the company's total revenues (which were, to be fair, well short of covering its debts).

Also omitted: any mention of the three tournaments Epic held in Las Vegas (see: ''[http://www.lvrj.com/business/pinnacle-entertainment-acquires-bankrupt-operators-of-epic-poker-league-and-heartland-poker-tour-159196295.html Las Vegas Review-Journal]'') or the money which was actually raised for charities, giving the erroneous impression that the organization never actually began its planned operations.

:{{xt|Among those defrauded in the Epic Poker League scandal was the Disabled American Veterans charity.[25]}} 

Odd. DAV is one of dozens of creditors listed on the PDF, and one owed far less ($9,602.50) than some others, including Barry Diller's [[IAC (company)|IAC]] ($19,152) and [[Kirkland & Ellis]] ($250,000). More importantly, "defrauded" is a POV invention; no fraud charges were ever filed, let alone intimated. In fact, by the time this section was added, Epic Poker and its parent company had been auctioned off (also see ''LRVJ'' above) yet this dispensation isn't mentioned either.

:{{xt|Referring to the Epic Poker Scandal and the Disabled American Veterans, poker professional Daniel Negreanu stated in an interview that "They haven’t paid the charities or any of their employees or the production crew. They’ve just stole a bunch of the money. That Geoffrey Pollack and Annie Puke." [26]}}

Personal opinion of an uninvolved third party, whose purposeful twisting of Duke's last name (not to mention apparently misspelling Pollack's first) makes more sense if you know Negreanu and Duke are party to a [http://www.pokerlistings.com/blog/great-poker-rivalries-daniel-negreanu-vs-annie-duke widely-known, ongoing poker feud]. Besides having no established expertise about Epic's finances, his viewpoint adds no useful information and should be removed.

{{collapse bottom}}

Given the above, there are a few options. One would simply be striking the section (and related intro sentence) which may be permissible under [[WP:BLP]], but I can understand why some might object. Retitling the section (I'd suggest: ''Epic Poker League'') and striking everything but the first sentence may work, too. However, I'd like a chance to write a short replacement that summarizes the situation based on RS sources (such as the ''LVRJ'') and share that here for review soon. Thanks in advance to anyone who's willing to take the time to help me sort this out. Cheers, [[User:WWB_Too|WWB Too]] ([[User talk:WWB_Too|Talk]] · [[User:WWB_Too|COI]]) 14:09, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
:I trimmed it as per contentious BLP above pending consenus.--[[User:Canoe1967|Canoe1967]] ([[User talk:Canoe1967|talk]]) 15:16, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks, I like how you handled it, moving a trimmed paragraph to ''Other ventures''. I've marked the request template as answered, however if others see this differently, I'm open to further discussion. And while this was the most serious issue, the article overall is somewhat disorganized, particularly within the multiply subdivided ''Poker'' section. I am currently working on another approach to that; if you're willing to look at that later, Canoe, let me know. Cheers, [[User:WWB_Too|WWB Too]] ([[User talk:WWB_Too|Talk]] &middot; [[User:WWB_Too|COI]]) 16:42, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
:::You are very welcome. You may wish to look at [[User:CorporateM/How WP:COI would read if I wrote it|this essay]]. Many feel it is easier to follow than policy and gudeline pages as they are written now. I probably won't have time to help you myself because the weather is warm enough now to take pictures for commons. Much the detail actually belongs in the EPL article and not this one. This is a bio article not a corporate one. Readers can blue link to that article if they want more details.--[[User:Canoe1967|Canoe1967]] ([[User talk:Canoe1967|talk]]) 16:59, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
::::No problem—enjoy the weather, and I'll be able to find help once I'm ready. Thanks again! [[User:WWB_Too|WWB Too]] ([[User talk:WWB_Too|Talk]] &middot; [[User:WWB_Too|COI]]) 17:59, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
:::::I should have noticed this before, but it happens that Epic Poker is covered in the same gossipy, negative way in the final paragraph of the ''[[Annie_Duke#Other_poker_activities|Other poker activities]]'' section—in this case with no sources at all. This one probably should go, too. [[User:WWB_Too|WWB Too]] ([[User talk:WWB_Too|Talk]] &middot; [[User:WWB_Too|COI]]) 18:40, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
::::::[[File:Symbol confirmed.svg|16px]] Done! [[User:WWB_Too|WWB Too]] ([[User talk:WWB_Too|Talk]] &middot; [[User:WWB_Too|COI]]) 19:59, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

== New proposed draft ==

{{edit COI|A}}
Earlier this year, I requested help to address the inaccurate information about Epic Poker included in this article. Now I have returned to propose a new draft for this article that aims to provide a balanced but more detailed encyclopedic treatment of Annie's career and biography. As I explained in my request in February (immediately above) I have a paid COI with the subject matter, so I am looking to find others to review this new draft. 

The draft adds citations, updates information about Annie's poker career and adds more detail regarding her poker activities and involvement with charities. I've placed the draft into my userspace (please note that the categories have been disabled, and will need to be re-enabled if moved into mainspace):

*[[User:WWB_Too/Annie_Duke|Annie Duke (proposed replacement draft)]]

In comparison with the current version, this draft is much more detailed, however I have also focused on consolidating information into appropriate sections and removing details from the current article that cannot be verified or are not encyclopedic. Based on the current structure and that used in other poker player's biographies, I have organized the article into four main sections: ''Early life and family'', ''Professional poker career'', ''Philanthropy'' and ''Other ventures''. More detail on each of these:

{{hidden|header=Details of proposed draft|content=#''Early life and family'' contains much the same detail as the existing section, however, I have moved mention of her professional role with ieLogic to the ''Professional poker career'' section. Additionally, I removed the mention of her bet with Steve Zolotow about her marriage and the detail that her home with her then-boyfriend Joe Reitman was featured in an article in ''The New York Times'' as neither of these details are particularly encyclopedic.
#''Professional poker career'' in my draft includes subsections for ''Early career'', ''Live poker'', ''Online poker activities'' and ''Other poker activities''. The ''Early career'' section describes how she became a professional player and her entry into WSOP tournaments. The ''Live poker'' section includes a summary of her notable live poker achievements, including updated information on her winnings. Under ''Online poker activities'' I have included details about her work for ieLogic and Ultimate Bet, and also her testimony on behalf of the Poker Players Alliance regarding online gambling. The ''Other poker activities'' section details her involvement in debates about sponsor logos and players' rights, and her opposition to the WSOP Ladies Event. Additionally, this section includes information on her role with the Epic Poker League and expands on the detail currently included in the article. I've also included details of her poker-related books, DVDs and products here.
#''Philanthropy'' is an entirely new section, detailing Annie's involvement with various charities, including her own non-profit: Ante Up for Africa and her appearance on ''Celebrity Apprentice'', which she entered to raise money for Refugees International.
#''Other ventures'' is shorter than in the current article, where a lot of detail is given to her appearances on game shows ''1 vs. 100'' and ''Deal or No Deal''. While my version notes that she did appear on these, I was not able to find sources for so much detail about the two shows. Also, as noted above, I've moved the information about Epic Poker and ''Celebrity Apprentice'' into other sections, although the latter is given a short mention in this section. |headerstyle=background:#ccfddc}}

This is a long draft, so I appreciate that editors may wish to look at it section-by-section, but I am equally open to discussing the whole draft if others would prefer. As always, I've aimed to write a balanced, neutral article and welcome editors' review to ensure it meets Wikipedia's guidelines in that respect. Questions are welcome, as are comments on the draft, either here or in my userspace. Cheers, [[User:WWB_Too|WWB Too]] ([[User talk:WWB_Too|Talk]] · [[User:WWB_Too|COI]]) 21:24, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
:At a  quick glance it seems okay. I am a little busy through Sunday but I will try and get some time to look at it in more detail and work on it. I have activated the answered bit in the template in case there is a backlog.--[[User:Canoe1967|Canoe1967]] ([[User talk:Canoe1967|talk]]) 22:31, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

::I see this has been done, thanks very much! [[User:WWB_Too|WWB Too]] ([[User talk:WWB_Too|Talk]] &middot; [[User:WWB_Too|COI]]) 01:48, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I really feel like this new version of the article is far too kind to Duke. It spends a lot of time discussing the charity and advocacy stuff (in fact the EPL section talks more about charity than the main EPL article itself), yet the UB situation is almost completely glossed over with no mention of her involvement publicly defending the UB cheaters or having made large amounts of money off the company which has still not fully repaid the victims. I don't really know enough about the situation to go through with editing the article myself so I will just leave a comment here. [[User:Sysys|Sysys]] ([[User talk:Sysys|talk]]) 22:27, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

:Hi there, Sysys. In my research of Annie Duke, I didn't find very much about Ultimate Bet in reliable sources; what you see is in the article now. For BLP reasons, I think it's best to be careful about what is added along these lines. Relatedly: I see that {{diff|Annie Duke|prev|554959155|today you added figures}} for Annie Duke's income from Epic Poker League, and while I think that number may well be correct, the way it is juxtaposed with the company's liabilities seems to imply wrongdoing on her part, which is certainly not reflected in reliable sources. There's no question that Annie Duke has earned a lot of money, although that is adequately covered elsewhere. I'd be interested to hear what others think as well. [[User:WWB_Too|WWB Too]] ([[User talk:WWB_Too|Talk]] &middot; [[User:WWB_Too|COI]]) 22:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

== uh oh ............ ==

people are talking....

http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/players-react-recorded-ub-meeting-involving-russ-hamilton-588354/  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/108.184.252.247|108.184.252.247]] ([[User talk:108.184.252.247|talk]]) 11:18, 12 May 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== More recent photo for infobox ==

{{edit COI|A}}As a continuation of my work updating this article, I have uploaded a more recent photo of Annie Duke to Wikimedia Commons. This image has been released for use under a Creative Commons license, as recorded by OTRS, however with my COI I am looking for someone to replace the image in the infobox with this one:

*[[:File:Annie_Duke_headshot.jpg]]

Let me know if there are any questions. Thanks! [[User:WWB_Too|WWB Too]] ([[User talk:WWB_Too|Talk]] · [[User:WWB_Too|COI]]) 02:30, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
:{{done}}--[[User:Canoe1967|Canoe1967]] ([[User talk:Canoe1967|talk]]) 03:45, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
:::Many thanks! [[User:WWB_Too|WWB Too]] ([[User talk:WWB_Too|Talk]] &middot; [[User:WWB_Too|COI]]) 03:57, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

== Online poker activities ==

I've reverted recent additions to the "Online poker activities" section, as they didn't seem adequately sourced in relation to the nature of the statements. One statement has no source, one is referenced only to YouTube which is inadmissible, and the other was squeezed in between an existing statement and its ref tag. These claims in a BLP should be sourced to major media outside the poker world[[User:Noyster|: <span style="color:seagreen;">'''Noyster'''</span>]] [[User talk:Noyster|<span style="color:seagreen;"> (talk)</span>, ]] 15:07, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 9 external links on [[Annie Duke]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/816275397|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130226180601/http://www.bluff.com/news/annie-duke-parts-ways-with-ub-poker-17735/ to http://www.bluff.com/news/annie-duke-parts-ways-with-ub-poker-17735
*Added archive https://archive.is/20140518145021/http://theppa.org/press-releases/2007/11/13/dc-annie-duke-testimony-for-judiciary-hearing to http://theppa.org/press-releases/2007/11/13/dc-annie-duke-testimony-for-judiciary-hearing
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130329123321/http://www.womanpokerplayer.com/pokernews/1307-she-saidshe-said-women-should-accept-annie-dukes-challenge.html to http://www.womanpokerplayer.com/pokernews/1307-she-saidshe-said-women-should-accept-annie-dukes-challenge.html
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140518212733/http://www.bluff.com/news/by-the-numbers-epic-poker-league-debut-24301/ to http://www.bluff.com/news/by-the-numbers-epic-poker-league-debut-24301
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130424050513/http://refugeesinternational.org/press-room/press-release/annie-duke-wins-700000-refugees-international-second-place-victor-celebrity to http://www.refugeesinternational.org/press-room/press-release/annie-duke-wins-700000-refugees-international-second-place-victor-celebrity
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140518212137/http://www.bluff.com/news/annie-duke-gets-poker-players-to-suck-out-on-joan-rivers-3531/ to http://www.bluff.com/news/annie-duke-gets-poker-players-to-suck-out-on-joan-rivers-3531
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130514000031/http://giving.childrenshospital.org/document.doc?id=378 to http://giving.childrenshospital.org/document.doc?id=378
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121025142606/http://www.decisioneducation.org/about-DEF/board-of-directors to http://www.decisioneducation.org/about-DEF/board-of-directors

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Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 09:54, 20 December 2017 (UTC)