View source for Talk:Asenath Barzani

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==Was she a "rabbi"==

Where is the sourcing of her being called "Rabbi"? [[User:PhatJew|PhatJew]] 12:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
:I didn't write it, so don't insist I source it.  A quick glance, however, at the results of a fairly simple google search yields these:  [http://www.caje-cbank.org/Vol15No3.pdf] [http://www.kurdistanica.com/english/religion/judaism/judaism.html] [http://www.loolwa.com/multiculturalism/programs.html] and [http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/030411/kurdish.shtml]...the last one says directly that she "was ordained as a rabbi in the 17th century." [[User:TShilo12|Tom]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">e</span>]][[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 12:05, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

::Her title was ''Tanna’it'' and her job was ''Rosh yeshiba''. -- [[User:Olve|Olve]] 08:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

:::As this seems well referenced I have added the category Orthodox Rabbis. Please remove this category if it is incorrect. There seems to be one more such case, a female Hassidic rebbe in Ludmir, Russia.  [[User:Gidonb|gidonb]] 09:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

:It's clear she had the job, but it's less clear she had the title (or the pay). The most important question is what she was known at the time, what people today have called her carries less weight. If she was known as a rabbi at the time, it would be good to cite scholarly sources given the controversial nature of the topic. If she was known by a different title, such as a "Taana'it" or Rosh Yeshiva at the time, it might be better to give these titles and then discuss modern opinions as to whether this is equivalent to being a rabbi. There are some women's yeshivas with female heads who are nonetheless not called rabbis, although I understand the yeshiva she headed was for men. Special care for factual correctness and careful distinction between contemporary vs. modern opinions of her and her role is important. Factual overenthusiasm here could backfire and lead to discrediting the example and rejection of its genuine precedential value. It's a topic well worth researching. --[[User:Shirahadasha|Shirahadasha]] 12:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I honestly don't think the recent official encyclopedia of Kurdistan is a reliable authority on whether or not 17th Century Jewish rabbinical authorities -- her contemporaries -- regarded her as a rabbi. They are neither scholars of Judaism nor religious authorities. We can publish that some people today regard her as a rabbi, but WP should not take this as its own position without a scholarly basis. WP requires reliable sources.  --[[User:Shirahadasha|Shirahadasha]] 20:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

:Well &mdash; she was clearly a rabbi, but she was not a Rabbi (rather, she was a ''Tanna’it'' by title), if you see what I mean. Much in the same way that [[Moses Gaster]] was a rabbi, but not a Rabbi (rather, he was a ''Haham'' by title), of the [[Spanish and Portuguese Jews’ Congregation, London]]. -- [[User:Olve|Olve]] 20:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

This whole debate is anachronistic. There was a formal system of Rabbinic ordination until the middle of the first Millennium, and the religious leaders of Judaism in the 7-9th Centuries didn't use the title 'Rabbi' to refer to themselves, calling themselves Geonim instead. Many of the Medieval Jewish legal authorities, like Rambam and Ramban, didn't have Rabbinic ordination. They used the title "Rab" but consciously distinguished it from the more-important title 'Rabbi'. In his Disputation at Barcelona, Ramban argues that he isn't a Rabbi! The modern institution of Rabbinic ordination was developed in central Europe in the late Middle Ages but wasn't adopted by non-Ashkenazi Jewish communities until the 20th Century. Despite all this, Jews today would universally consider the Geonim, Rambam and Ramban to be Rabbis as we use the term today. So this is an unanswerable debate. [[User:Ariehkovler|Ariehkovler]] ([[User talk:Ariehkovler|talk]]) 11:59, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

== Smicha ? ==

Did she have Smicha? If she did who gave it to here? For some one to be a Rabbi he must have smicha from a reliable Rabbi.
If she doesn't have Smicha then it should be mentioned in the article.--[[User:Yisraeldov|yisraeldov]] 13:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
: The modern institution of Smicha wasn't in use in Kurdistan. But lots of people we consider Rabbis have no such Smicha, including everyone in the Middle Ages. Ramban makes this point in the Barcelona Disputation. Would you insist that an article about Rambam or Ramban mention that they had no Smicha?[[User:Ariehkovler|Ariehkovler]] ([[User talk:Ariehkovler|talk]]) 11:39, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

== Tanna’it VS Rabbanit ? ==

A deffinition should be provided for "Tanna'it". It seems that a claim is being made that the title "Tanna'it" implies Rabbi. I don't see the difference between [[Rabbanit]] ( Rebitzen ) which is commonly used to refer to the ''wife'' of a rabbi.--[[User:Yisraeldov|yisraeldov]] 14:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
*See [[Rebbetzin]] ;-} article. [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] 15:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

::We don't know for sure what her contemporaries meant when they applied the term to her. Any definition would likely be [[WP:OR|original research]] unless some [[WP:RS|source]] indicates that her contemporaries had that definition in mind when they used the term. In the [[Talmud]], a "tanna" referred to a transmitter of oral teachings which had not yet been written down as a [[Mishna]] or [[Breita]], and the [[Tannaim]] refer to the early formulators of the Talmud. Best, --[[User:Shirahadasha|Shirahadasha]] 16:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

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