View source for Talk:Beyond Good and Evil

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==General Organization==
===Introduction===
The sentence, "He is possibly one of the easiest philosophers to read, but is most definitely one of the hardest to interpret," seems out of place in an Encyclopedia. It is a very obviously opinionated statement. If this is indeed the general consensus in the philosophical community, then it should be phrased as such.  If this is simply the opinion of the author, then it should be removed.
[[User:Daniel S. Clouser|Daniel S. Clouser]] 15:44, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

===Outline===
I've added an outline of the book: given how systematically Nietzsche presents his arguments in ''Beyond Good and Evil'', this should also be a good way for organizing any kind of summary of those arguments in the future -- if anyone feels brave enough to make such an attempt.<br>
--[[User:Todeswalzer|Todeswalzer]] | [[User_talk:Todeswalzer|Talk]] 21:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

==Original research==
[[User:Skomorokh|Skomorokh]] recently tagged this page for containing original research, however, he/she failed to properly explain his/her concerns on this talk page. I've accordingly removed the tag from the article. --<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">[[User:Todeswalzer|Todeswalzer]]<big>|</big>[[User_talk:Todeswalzer|Talk]]</span> 15:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Possibly add more under notes?  Surely there should be some work by Kaufmann listed that isn't a translation.  There is also only a single footnote in the entire article.  At the very least, here are some more sources.<br />
Nietzsche: Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist, Walter Kaufmann  ISBN: 9780691019833<br />
Kaufmann, W. (----) Nietzsche Between Homer and Sartre: Five Treatments of the Orestes Story. Revue Internationale de Philosophie; 18: 50-73.<br />
Kaufmann, W. (1948) Nietzsche's Admiration for Socrates. Journal of the History of Ideas, Vol. 9, No. 4, (Oct., 1948), pp. 472-491<br />  [[User:Maxxx12345|Maxxx12345]] ([[User talk:Maxxx12345|talk]]) 13:05, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

:There is also useful content by Kaufmann, other than translation, in his ''Basic Writings of Nietzsche'', now added to references, otherwise the article seems to be open (original?) summaries of Nietzsche's text.[[User:Socratesart|Socratesart:talk]] 15:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

==Trivia be gone==
I have removed an entire rancorous debate about trivia. I find it acceptable to remove trivia to its own section. However, a rancorous discussion about whether and how to edit trivia seems about as trivial as you can get. Too trivial even for trivia hounds IMHO. [[User:Wcmead3|Wcmead3]] ([[User talk:Wcmead3|talk]]) 14:27, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

==Fair use rationale for Image:BeyondGoodandEvil.jpg==
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[[User:BetacommandBot|BetacommandBot]] 03:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC) 

==Quote==
Beyond good and evil is well know for one quote: 
He who fights monsters, should watch that he himself does not become the monster. 
As you gaze into an abyss the abyss gazes into you.  

Now I know that isn't the full version but the full quote should be included in the first part of the article, just throwing it out there, not a pro' so i guess its up to you guys.
:::Well known by whom?[[User:Lestrade|Lestrade]] ([[User talk:Lestrade|talk]]) 14:10, 13 December 2010 (UTC)Lestrade
::section number (Nietzsche paragraph number) for the quote should at least be noted as per standard referencing of Nietzsche's texts. Not sure that quote is in "Beyond Good and Evil".[[User:Socratesart|Socratesart:talk]] 04:07, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

::It's under §146 in ''Part Four: Maxims and Interludes''; the translation given by R. J. Hollingdale is,
:::"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." [[User:Wocky|Wocky]] ([[User talk:Wocky|talk]]) 11:17, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

==Peeve==

Punctuation goes inside of quotation marks, not outside (see [[Quotation_mark#Punctuation]]).  
I found this excruciatingly distracting when attempting to read this article. 
There are people who disagree[http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/department/docs/punctuation/node30.html], and call the presentation used here, <s>"logical."</s> <span style="color:red;">Corrected: "logical".</span>  My opinion: punctuation is convention.  Unconventional usage distracts from the message. [[User:Dclo|Dclo]] ([[User talk:Dclo|talk]]) 03:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

:So what do you do with parentheses? "(Put them in quotation marks like this?)", even if the brackets weren't in the original? What about dashes? What about if you're clarifying something someone stated, and would like to know why a person thinks that something is "distracting?" (Really? I thought you sounded more sure of yourself than that.)

:In any case, I would hardly call the use of British practi'''s'''es -- when writing in ''English'', that is, the language that originated from the British -- to be "unconventional". I'm sorry if you find the non-American standard to be "excruciatingly distracting", but [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English|Wikipedia's guidelines]] clearly indicate that "No variety is more correct than the others", so long as it is consistent thoughout the article. (Oh, I've also taken the liberty of correcting, in the colo'''u'''r red, your above ''illogical'', though pardonable, punctuation offen'''c'''e -- you know, for consistency.) --<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">[[User:Todeswalzer|Todeswalzer]]<big>|</big>[[User_talk:Todeswalzer|Talk]]</span> 02:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

::just mark the article as british english.   <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Cahmad25|Cahmad25]] ([[User talk:Cahmad25#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Cahmad25|contribs]]) 21:42, 4 January 2022 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Nietzsche & women ==


Nietzsche's introduction begins: "If truth were a woman; what then?" This book is known for having supposedly "chauvinistic" aphorisms on women <s>("If you go to woman, don't forget your whip")</s>. Now, I was wondering if the first sentence of the introduction means that N. is setting up "woman" to be used as an analogy for "truth" - he'd be suggesting that man's relation to truth is very similar to 19th-century man's relation to woman. It seems abstruse enough to be something Nietzsche would do - hide his true meaning behind an analogy.

Has anyone seen any scholarship that discusses this? I don't remember if I got this idea from reading Kaufmann or Danto, or somewhere else. And, if there is some scholarship addressing this, would it be a good idea to write a section on it? I'd write the section if someone knows of the scholarship. [[User:AllGloryToTheHypnotoad|AllGloryToTheHypnotoad]] ([[User talk:AllGloryToTheHypnotoad|talk]]) 15:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

: Well, part of the problem would be that there is no scholarly consensus on what Nietzsche means here, whether that meaning is sustained throughout the book, etc.  It is the sort of thing that every scholar would have to address, however.  (Incidentally, the bit about the whip is from ''Thus Spoke Zarathustra'').  [[User:RJC|RJC]] <sup>[[User talk:RJC|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/RJC|Contribs]]</sup> 15:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

::Funny, I don't think I've even read that one. Oh well - all the other aphorisms on women, then. I was reading in the general Nietzsche article that some scholars have, indeed, tried to address this issue, so maybe I'll just leave it. That info will probably slowly migrate over into this article as time passes, anyway. [[User:AllGloryToTheHypnotoad|AllGloryToTheHypnotoad]] ([[User talk:AllGloryToTheHypnotoad|talk]]) 22:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
N.'s metaphor was fully explained by N. and does not require scholarly interpretation. Dogmatists have been too forceful in their claim that they have found truth, but truth has evaded them. This is compared with a clumsy man's forceful approach to a woman, who is repelled by his manner.[[User:Lestrade|Lestrade]] ([[User talk:Lestrade|talk]]) 14:22, 13 December 2010 (UTC)Lestrade


<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the proposal was {{done}}. Should not have been moved as uncontroversial. A new, proper move request may be issued below this one by those who favour the "(book)" title (and in that case, it should happen by-the-book! What, that could have been funny). [[User:El_C|El_C]] 03:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

==Move back to "Beyond Good and Evil"==

*This page was moved to "Beyond Good and Evil (book)" after [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requested_moves&oldid=233597944#Uncontroversial_proposals a request] in [[Wikipedia:Requested moves#Uncontroversial proposals]]. The top of that section says "''Do not list a proposed page move in this section if there is any possibility that it could be opposed by anyone.''" Well, I oppose it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The book is much more notable than any of the other entries on the disambiguation page, and all the other entries are, to the best of my knowledge, references to it. -- [[User:BenRG|BenRG]] ([[User talk:BenRG|talk]]) 02:34, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

*I agree.  This move should never have happened:  the community wasn't consulted, and it is without merit.  [[User:RJC|RJC]] <sup>[[User talk:RJC|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/RJC|Contribs]]</sup> 07:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
** It also violates [[WP:DISAMBIG]] [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]]. [[User:RJC|RJC]] <sup>[[User talk:RJC|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/RJC|Contribs]]</sup> 16:05, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
*I also agree. The book title is certainly primary usage of the phrase. [[User:Station1|Station1]] ([[User talk:Station1|talk]]) 08:50, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
*Move back. This was a huge mistake (done without proper up-front discussion) and should be reversed ASAP. How can you categorize a world masterpiece as just another entry along with computer games, tv shows, and music DVD's, all derivative from the original? This is an encyclopedia. If someone comes here and types in "Beyond Good and Evil" he should immediately be taken to the Nietzsche article. The latter can contain a DAB notification. ~ [[User:Alcmaeonid|Alcmaeonid]] ([[User talk:Alcmaeonid|talk]]) 15:52, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
*Good grief, move back. [[User talk:Skomorokh|<span style="font-family:Garamond; color:black;">Skomorokh</span>]] 15:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->

== Very funny but ... ==

The lead contains the following sentence which sounds rather like a comedy line ...

{{cquote|It takes up and expands on the ideas of his previous work, ''[[Thus Spoke Zarathustra]]'', replacing that work's sunny and life-affirming character with a highly critical, polemical approach.}}

... Is describing ''Thus Spoke Zarathustra'' as "sunny and life-affirming" accurate?  If it is, it certainly doesn't appear written in an encyclopaedic style.  Cheers, --[[User:Plumbago|P<small>LUMBAGO</small>]] 10:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

== Lame Link ==
The link in the third paragraph to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_and_evil is absurd. Nietzsche almost(?) certainly was referring to the dominant Christian Morality and not to the nonsense on that page. Heck, it doesn't even mention Christianity on that page. Sigh. I suppose I should be over there complaining except that I don't care about what wikipedia says about "good and evil". But, I do care about Nietzsche. Yes yes, the page does talk about the Greeks but that's still not what's up with this book. [[Special:Contributions/75.88.234.224|75.88.234.224]] ([[User talk:75.88.234.224|talk]]) 08:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

:Fine.  Just go and delete the link.  [[WP:BOLD|Be bold!]]  Just make sure that you include an explanation for your change in your [[WP:ES|edit summary]] so that we all know why you made the change.  Best regards and good editing!  --[[User:Plumbago|P<small>LUMBAGO</small>]] 08:56, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

== How to remove a tautology? ==

It is in the following sentence: ''A weak thirst for possession implies a weak will to power and ignorance of it because it does not produce a drive for self knowledge.'' This sentece says in other words "not knowledge because isn't possible knowledge" or more precisely "the same thing, which I don't know should provide me with means for knowledge." It appears tautological. Has anybody any suggestion how to remove this tautoloy? [[User:Chomsky|Chomsky]] ([[User talk:Chomsky|talk]]) 16:12, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

The fact that "the same thing, which I don't know should provide me with means for knowledge" is a property of self knowledge. The aforesaid sentence may appear tautological because the subject of knowledge is wrongly the will to power. It can be changed to "self" and tautological sound disapears. [[User:Chomsky|Chomsky]] ([[User talk:Chomsky|talk]]) 17:46, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

: Wow, that entire discussion is bad. It is misleading, unreadable, and concludes with [[WP:OR|original research]]:
::{{Font color|red|In one of the central aphorisms (§194) in ''Beyond Good and Evil'' and the chapter of "Natural History of Morals" he describes the unrefined and refined types of possession. Nietzsche points that you can see the differences among men based on what they count as really having. Only the man with the strongest thirst for possession is capable of refined possession because it is based on knowledge and self knowledge and therefore has a stronger will to power. A weak thirst for possession implies a weak will to power and ignorance of it because it does not produce a drive for self knowledge. 'Modern' morality (transformed slave morality) finds its psychological origins in a "kind of slavery" of unrefined parental possession.}}
: How about we move this to the end of the section, after the idea of "ladders" has already been broached, and say something like:
::{{Font color|green|Nietzsche argues that noble and base are distinguished by more than what they value as "good." Even where there is agreement over what is good, what men consider a sufficient sign of possessing what is good differs (§194). Nietzsche describes [[love]] as the desire to possess a woman. The most unrefined form of the desire is also the most readily identifiable as a desire to possess another: control over the woman's body. A subtler desire to possess her wants her soul, as well, and thus wants her to be willing to sacrifice herself for her lover. Nietzsche describes this as a more complete possession. A still more refined desire to possess her prompts a concern that she might be willing to sacrifice what she desires for a mistaken image of her lover. This leads some lovers to want their women to know them deep down so that their sacrifice really is a sacrifice for ''them''. A similar rank-ordering applies to [[statesmen]], the less refined not caring whether they attain power by fraud, the more refined not taking pleasure in the people's love unless they love the statesman for who he really is. In both cases, the more spiritualized form of the desire to possess also demands one possess what is good more completely.}}
:'''[[User:RJC|<span style="background:#CEFFCE;color:#0000C6;font-family:Garamond">RJC</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:RJC|<span style="color:#0000C6">Talk</span>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/RJC|<span style="color:#0000C6">Contribs</span>]]</sub> 17:59, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Please, do it yourself, though I am not sure, if it is a transcription of the original Nietzsche's ideas in §194, but it doesn't already sound tautologicaly. Thank you. [[User:Chomsky|Chomsky]] ([[User talk:Chomsky|talk]]) 09:06, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I must admit, that your transcription of the Nietzsche's original text is very good. It made possible for me to understand even the text in my mother tongue. But I don't understand to your instruction above this transcription and therefore I can't incorporate <s>it</s> this transcription into the article. Forgive me. Thank you. [[User:Chomsky|Chomsky]] ([[User talk:Chomsky|talk]]) 09:36, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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== Requested move 13 October 2019 ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''

The result of the move request was: '''Not moved''' <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> [[User:Iffy|Iffy]]★[[User Talk:Iffy|Chat]] -- 09:12, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
----


* [[:Beyond Good and Evil]] → {{no redirect|Beyond Good and Evil (book)}}
* [[:Beyond Good and Evil (disambiguation)]] → {{no redirect|Beyond Good and Evil}}
– Proposing the move as there is no a clear primary topic compared to a 16 years old [[Beyond Good & Evil (video game)]] per the page [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&range=latest-20&pages=Beyond_Good_and_Evil%7CBeyond_Good_and_Evil_(album)%7CBeyond_Good_and_Evil_(film)%7CBeyond_Good_%26_Evil_(video_game) views] and it may per [[WP:ASTONISH]] surprise people who are looking info about the game. [[User:Jovanmilic97|Jovanmilic97]] ([[User talk:Jovanmilic97|talk]]) 16:04, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''': A video game that has been recently popular with 16-year-olds is not comparable in notability with this major historical work of philosophy by Friedrich Nietzsche (and this article gets more page views too). —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 00:00, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
::Agreed, though the 16 year old statement was regarding how old the game was not the demographic that it’s popular with. I would be quite surprised if 16 year olds suddenly took interest In a 2003 video game.--[[Special:Contributions/67.68.29.177|67.68.29.177]] ([[User talk:67.68.29.177|talk]]) 03:32, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. The 19th century work by Nietzsche is clearly the primary topic over a 16 year old video game, having more page views (as demonstrated above) and significantly greater long-term notability. [[User:PC78|PC78]] ([[User talk:PC78|talk]]) 09:29, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Longterm significance criterion says that it's definitely the primary topic, and this is coming from a big fan of the videogame.<sub><small>[[User:Zxcvbnm|ZXCVBNM]] ([[User Talk:Zxcvbnm|TALK]])</small></sub> 17:17, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Actually [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&start=2015-07&end=2019-09&pages=Beyond_Good_and_Evil|Beyond_Good_and_Evil_(album)|Beyond_Good_and_Evil_(film)|Beyond_Good_%26_Evil_(video_game) longer-term page views] don't show a primary topic at all. [[User:Shhhnotsoloud|Shhhnotsoloud]] ([[User talk:Shhhnotsoloud|talk]]) 12:37, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''<!-- Template:RM bottom --></div>