View source for Talk:Cold-weather warfare

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==Untitled==
the phrasing "The Falklands War in the 1980s had to end in June" has to be changed: according to whom did it have to end? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/79.136.91.163|79.136.91.163]] ([[User talk:79.136.91.163#top|talk]]) 19:50, 29 September 2009 (UTC)</small>

==Unreferenced==
This article is so unreferenced that it is not even clear that the term is defined correctly in the article! On the face of it, Arctic Warfare would be a term used to describe warfare taking place in the Arctic, with a possible stretch to include the Antarctic. I could find no references to indicate that it applies to warfare in the cold.

Even if it did, India/Pakistan, Afghanistan and Yugoslavia certainly don't count. [[User:DJ Clayworth|DJ Clayworth]] ([[User talk:DJ Clayworth|talk]]) 19:56, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

It is untrue that the Germans had only one ski division and that the Soviets had several.  The Germans had the 1st through6th Gebirgs Divsions, !st Ski Division, the 6th SS Gebirgsjaeger and 13th(?) SS Karstjaeger Division, as well as other divisions, trained in ski, snowshoe and mountain combat.  The Soviets did not have a single dedicated ski or mountain division, although they did use ski troops.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.26.14.163|69.26.14.163]] ([[User talk:69.26.14.163|talk]]) 03:55, 22 September 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Requested move 10 December 2016 ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''Cold-weather warfare.''' [[User:HopsonRoad]] 14:31, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
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[[:Arctic warfare]] → {{no redirect|Winter warfare}} – The article is primarily about winter warfare with some references to combat that actually took place in the [[arctic]]. A name change gives the correct emphasis. '''Arctic warfare''' should redirect to this page, not the other way around. [[User:HopsonRoad]] 22:38, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

:'''Comment''' Do you have some sources to suggest that "Winter warfare" is the more common name for this? Bear in mind that some places are cold all year round, and not just in winter. ([[User:Hohum|<span style="color:Green;">'''Hohum'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Hohum|<span style="color:Red;"><sup>@</sup></span>]]) 02:31, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
::Thanks for checking in, [[User:Hohum|Hohum]]. The US Army has a [https://www.wainwright.army.mil/nwtc/ Northern Warfare Training Center] at [[Fort Wainwright]], Alaska and [http://www.benning.army.mil/infantry/AMWS/ Mountain Warfare School] in [[Jericho, Vermont]], both of which emphasize winter operations. There is no universally accepted term. The article is clearly about winter operations, which take place primarily in the north or in mountains. Very little of it pertains to the Arctic. [[User:HopsonRoad]] 04:08, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
:::So far, it seems to me that British/Commonwealth sources tend to use "Arctic Warfare" and American ones "Winter Warfare" and "Northern Warfare", I don't know if there is more global variety. If there is no universally accepted term, what's the basis of changing it? [[WP:COMMONNAME]] prefers the most common name used in reliable sources; if it's unclear which is most common, we use the one the article originally has and provide redirects. ([[User:Hohum|<span style="color:Green;">'''Hohum'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Hohum|<span style="color:Red;"><sup>@</sup></span>]]) 04:37, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
::::Thanks for getting back, [[User:Hohum|Hohum]]. I'm not sure what sources you have in mind for British uses of the word. However, it's hard to apply the word, "Arctic", to the majority of the battles described in the article, cf: [[Battle on the Ice]], [[Battle of Bogesund]], the [[Dano-Swedish war]]s, [[Great Northern War]], [[Finnish War]], [[French invasion of Russia]], [[Winter War]], most winter operations in [[World War II]], even the [[Aleutian Islands Campaign]] was not in the Arctic, winter conflict in this century has been in the Himalayas, e.g. [[Siachen conflict]]. So, it's on a common-sense basis that this article is about winter warfare and only incidentally mentions conflict in the Arctic. [[User:HopsonRoad]] 13:15, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
::::The following British sources use the term, "cold-weather": [http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/operations/arctic-and-northern-european-waters/norway-cold-weather Royal Navy] and [http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2015/february/13/150213-royal-marines-train-in-extreme-arctic-cold Royal Marines]. [[User:HopsonRoad]] 13:23, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
::::The US Army uses [https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/atp3-90-97.pdf "Mountain Warfare and Cold Weather Operations"] in its ATP on the subject. Nonetheless, this article is primarily about conflict in winter, when cold is prevalent. However, I'd be content to rename the article "'''Cold-weather warfare'''", if that worked for others. [[User:HopsonRoad]] 13:47, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
:::::''Cold-weather warfare'' would seem to cover it - I think it would be a good idea to announce this RFC at [[WT:MILHIST]] to get more opinions than mine though. ([[User:Hohum|<span style="color:Green;">'''Hohum'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Hohum|<span style="color:Red;"><sup>@</sup></span>]]) 14:36, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
::::::Thanks, I've done so. [[User:HopsonRoad]] 14:50, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
*'''Support alternative: Cold-weather warfare''': arctic warfare is an oft-used description but as noted is not perfect, however winter warfare is at best no better and at worst much much poorer a title. Spain has a winter and has had wars during said winter but such conflicts would not fall under the remit of this article. Cold-weather warfare is a term used in the literature and avoids both the problems associated with winter and arctic. [[User:Ebonelm|Ebonelm]] ([[User talk:Ebonelm|talk]]) 23:05, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]].  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

== Day/night effects ==

Do the sources being used mention changes in warfare due to the longer nights in winter, and also the effect of [[polar night]] and/or [[midnight sun]] on operations conducted close to the poles? ([[User:Hohum|<span style="color:Green;">'''Hohum'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Hohum|<span style="color:Red;"><sup>@</sup></span>]]) 02:20, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
:Indeed. I added "During winter night operations are the norm, since higher latitudes have longer periods of darkness." under ''Tactics''. [[User:HopsonRoad]] 03:03, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
::Night operations in the event of 24 hour sunlight would seem unlikely ;), so that probably needs some expansion. ([[User:Hohum|<span style="color:Green;">'''Hohum'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Hohum|<span style="color:Red;"><sup>@</sup></span>]]) 03:25, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
:::Just paraphrasing the manual! [[User:HopsonRoad]] 03:57, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

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== Infobox ==

[[User:Gaioa]] has twice removed the infobox, suggesting in the first instance, "Infobox military conflict?? its enough with just the picture", which I reverted with "Please discuss to obtain consensus before removing this content", which he reverted with "Reverted good faith edits by HopsonRoad: Consensus for removing a irrelevant template? Infobox conflict on an article about tactics is "fairly" uncontroversial. Please have a good look at the article you're patrolling." Please note that as the primary editor of the article, I did "have a good look". This is to ask others for a consensus on removing the infobox, as Gaioa suggests. Would others involved in Military history please comment, e.g. [[User:Hohum]] and [[User:Stephen.bennett876]]. Sincerely, [[User:HopsonRoad]] 11:45, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
:Alright, let's talk this through then. Explain to me: why do we use [[Template:Infobox Military Conflict]] for an article that does not '''in any way''' discuss any specific conflict, but rather a military doctorine? Are Wikipedia really ''that'' scarse with templates that we do an anything goes-policy?<br/>And please don't make this an issue of "military history". It's wiki formatting and wiki practice, nothing more. [[User:Gaioa|Gaioa]] ([[User talk:Gaioa|talk]]) 11:55, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
::And by the way, you are clearly [[WP:OWN|OWNing]] this article imho.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Gaioa|Gaioa]] ([[User talk:Gaioa#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gaioa|contribs]]) 11:57, 17 September 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::[[Template:Infobox military conflict]] says, "A military conflict infobox (sometimes referred to as a warbox) may be used to summarize information about a particular military conflict (a battle, campaign, war, or group of related wars) in a standard manner." The justification for its use here is that the cited wars are "related" by cold weather. [[User:HopsonRoad]] 11:51, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
::::I appreciate your concern about my "owning" this article. To avoid that problem, I have asked for guidance at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Use of infobox at Cold-Weather warfare]] I hope that my tone remains dispassionate on the topic. Sincerely, [[User:HopsonRoad]] 12:02, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
::::: My 2 cents (responding to MilHist talk page request) is that the infobox is not appropriate - the infobox is intended for an actual conflict or battle, not military concepts. It does not exist on [[Maneuver warfare]] or [[Desert warfare]] for instance.[[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 12:05, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
:Oh please! Are you alerting the cavalry<small>(no pun intended)</small> at your WikiProject? Can you at least stop pretending that you and your wikiproject own this article? Can we discuss this man on man?<br/>Back on topic, the article is not a conflict and does not need a warbox. That's like saying that [[Siege]], [[Scorched earth]] and [[Nuclear weapon]] needs warboxes about the conflicts they were involved with. You are more than welcome to create a different box like [[Template:Infobox military practice]] or [[Template:Military doctorine used in]], but we need to keep the warbox for articles about actual wars and battles. Don't use the template documentation agaisnt me, that's on par with [[WP:LAWYER|playing lawyer]] to [[WP:OWN|control your personal article]]. [[User:Gaioa|Gaioa]] ([[User talk:Gaioa|talk]]) 12:06, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
::Look [[User:HopsonRoad|man]]. Sorry for my incivility. I just got a bit frustrated at you. I get the impression that you are [[WP:DRAMA|making this excessive]], creating [[much ado about nothing]]. Please forgive my hostile tone.<br/>But I still rest my case, and believe you are [[WP:OWN|owning]] and [[WP:LAWYER|lawyering]] '''without realizing it''' to defend your hard-earned contributions. [[WP:POINT|Hopefully]], we can get some more people into this before [[Duel|we go too far]]. [[User:Gaioa|Gaioa]] ([[User talk:Gaioa|talk]]) 12:13, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
{{od}}I'm somewhat ambivalent. It does no harm, but provides little use. Complaining that it's "using the wrong template" seems a bit disingenuous - if there was an "infobox doctrine" template which showed the same information, or if a table was used, it would suddenly be fine? '''More relevant, in my opinion - is there useful information to be put into some kind of infobox/table in the lead? Something linking to various types of warfare? Incorporating them into the <nowiki>{{history of war}}</nowiki> template?''' 
Please abide by [[WP:CIVIL]]. ([[User:Hohum|<span style="color:Green;">'''Hohum'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Hohum|<span style="color:Red;"><sup>@</sup></span>]]) 12:10, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
:Just to note, alerting a relevant wikiproject is a normal step in gaining wider consensus. ([[User:Hohum|<span style="color:Green;">'''Hohum'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Hohum|<span style="color:Red;"><sup>@</sup></span>]]) 12:14, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
:Yes, it would "suddenly" be fine. Differing templates are no only for visual consistency, but also to ease the use of bots (both current and future ones) and scripts to know what the article are about. That's why I found this to be a minor issue, since it hardly affect the reader's article at all. Just a small twitch in the honor of consistency. [[User:Gaioa|Gaioa]] ([[User talk:Gaioa|talk]]) 12:18, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
::Hi [[User:Gaioa|Gaioa]], please let's not make this discussion about me—whether I have any pride in my contributions (which I do)—or even whether this pride translates into defensive behavior (ownership). Let's make this about whether the article is improved with a given change—inclusion or exclusion of an infobox. 
::If we review [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#Purpose of an infobox]], it says, "When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored). The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance. Of necessity, some infoboxes contain more than just a few fields; however, wherever possible, present information in short form, and exclude any unnecessary content." I feel that the infobox, as currently used in this article, shapes the geographic scope of the topic and summarizes the progress made in this aspect of warfare. I do appreciate your potential surprise that the infobox may have been used this way, since that is not its main purpose. 
::Please note that my edit comment upon reverting was to request a discussion so that a consensus could be developed. I feel that this is consistent with the ethos of Wikipedia and does not by itself reflect "ownership". [[Help:Infobox]] says that, "The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article." That's what we're doing now and I very much appreciate your participation. 
::Sincerely, [[User:HopsonRoad]] 11:26, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
:::Of course. I'm not hating on your use of infobox. I'm just saying that using the warbox is confusing. Maybe not for readers, but indeed for editors and bots.<br/>Have an infobox. Have a hundred if you want. But don't use one which is meant for a different purpose. There is no point in using [[Template:Infobox film]] on the page of [[Academy Awards]], even if it is deemed practical. [[Template:Infobox film|Filmsboxes]] are used for films, [[Template:Infobox person|personboxes]] are used for persons, and [[Template:Infobox military conflict|warboxes]] are used for wars. A policy of "anybox goes" is just unnessecary. We need ''appropriate'' infoboxes. <br/>And please don't '''only''' talk about the policies and infopages. [[WP:COMMONSENSE]] always applies. And since our ultimate goal is not to follow rules but to write WP, also consider [[WP:IAR]]. [[User:Gaioa|Gaioa]] ([[User talk:Gaioa|talk]]) 12:07, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
:::As a matter of fact, you make a good point. Why not '''create a new infobox''' for this very purpose! If I knew how to make templates, I'd create [[Template:Infobox military tactic]] at once. Or maybe [[Template:Infobox military doctrine]] is better. Come back in a while :) [[User:Gaioa|Gaioa]] ([[User talk:Gaioa|talk]]) 12:11, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
::::Thank you, for your kind reply, [[User:Gaioa|Gaioa]]. You express a concern that I am not familiar with—that an edge-of-the-envelope use of an infobox would confuse a bot. Please tell me more. I understand that stretching the envelope in using a particular infobox could cause another editor to scratch his/her head—a legitimate reaction. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad]] 12:51, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
:::::Great to hear that we are on par again, [[User:HopsonRoad|buddy]]! And great to see that you understand my point, how infoboxes goes where they are supposed to.<br/>I hope you understand my psoition now. To recap: <code>Remove the warbox and replace it with the picture and caption only, or until a proper topic-specific infobox exists.</code> [[User:Gaioa|Gaioa]] ([[User talk:Gaioa|talk]]) 13:08, 18 September 2017 (UTC)<br/>P.S. What does [[wikt:edge of the envelope|edge of the envelope]] mean?
::::::Actually, I personally maintain that the infobox, as presented, provides value to the reader (whom we are trying to serve in writing articles). My suggestion is to await further input from interested editors and then in a few days, summarize that input and encourage those, who have reported here to support '''retain''' or '''remove'''. It shouldn't be up to us to make a side agreement. 
::::::The idea of creating an infobox for military doctrine or tactics should be discussed at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history]].
::::::Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad]] 13:58, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
::::::P.S. by "edge of the envelope", I was referring to a [[flight envelope]], the limits within which an airplane may fly. I was suggesting that my use of this template is within bounds, but at the edge. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad]] 14:03, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
::::::Also, I still don't understand the problem that you raise, regarding the use of this template causing confusion for bots. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad]] 14:21, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
===Compromise?===
{| class="wikitable floatright"
! This is not an Infobox
|-
! Part of [[War]]
|-
| style="font-size: 87%;" | [[File:Navy Seals Winter warfare at Mammoth Mountain, California, in December 2014.jpg|center|220px]] <div class="center">[[Navy SEALs]] training for winter operations</div>
|-
| style="font-size: 87%;"| '''Locations:'''
::Aleutian Islands, Alps, 
::Arctic Ocean, Korean Peninsula, 
::Himalayas, Northern Europe, 
::Russia
|-
| style="font-size: 87%;"| '''Result:'''
::Improved military doctrine on the 
::effects of cold, snow, ice, and 
::thaw on military operations. 
::Increased training in cold conditions.
|-
|}
Hi [[User:Gaioa|Gaioa]],

Would the mocked-up table shown here, which is not a template or infobox, work for you? If the idea is OK with you, then I would tweak it to resemble what's there now.

Sincerely, [[User:HopsonRoad]] 11:18, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
:'''Sure'''. Let me clarify again, that I '''was never against the mere existence''' of an infobox. I was only concerned with you using a irrelevant infobox. I'll explain what I meant with bots:
{{cquote|A category maintanence bot is told to make sure that all articles about wars and battles are in a subcategory of [[:Category:Wars]]. But how would a bot know which articles to check? Well, its author thinks "What does all WP articles on wars and battles have in common? I know, they all have the warbox." Therefore, the bot is programmed to go through all articles which [[Wikipedia:Transclusion|transcludes]] the [[Template:Infobox military conflict|warbox template]], as documented at [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Infobox_military_conflict|this special page]]. The bot arrives to '''this''' article and decides "It has a warbox, so it must be about a certain military battle." The bot is wrong - the article are about a warfare diciplin - but '''a bot cannot know that'''. Thus, [[Cold-weather warfare]] is added to the war category although it is not about ''a'' war.}}
:Of course, this is only a theoretical situation, and I cannot give names of a bot which would do this. But there may be one, or one may be created. And when it does, it could easily '''see this page as something it is not'''. This page belongs in [[:Category:Warfare]] or its subcategories, not [[:Category:Wars]] or its subcategories.
:I still recommend creating a specialized infobox for warfare doctorines, but as a mere patroller, I will leave that to the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history|spec-ops]]. [[User:Gaioa|Gaioa]] ([[User talk:Gaioa|talk]]) 13:37, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

::I've tweaked the presentation slightly to avoid the wasted framing that "thumbnail" creates. ([[User:Hohum|<span style="color:Green;">'''Hohum'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Hohum|<span style="color:Red;"><sup>@</sup></span>]]) 17:48, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
:::Thanks for your insights and assistance, [[User:Gaioa|Gaioa]] and [[User:Hohum|Hohum]]. I'll plan on implementing this workaround, next week. I need to upgrade my skill set in the process. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad]] 13:36, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

* IMO, the infobox (with Locations and Result fields) is inappropriate for a topic like this and is not normal on Wikipedia articles (e.g. it's inconsistent with similar articles such as [[Mountain warfare]] and [[Psychological warfare]]). It should be removed - leaving just the picture (and caption). <b>[[User:DexDor|DexDor]]</b><sup> [[User talk:DexDor|(talk)]]</sup> 08:53, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks for weighing in here, [[User:DexDor|DexDor]]. I'll be substituting something else in place of the infobox, which is a marginal fit. All the examples of types of warfare that have been cited as not having an inbox—maneuver, desert, mountain and psychological warfare—are sub-par (often with too few references) and in my opinion don't constitute paragons of what a military article should be. As I quoted, above, the purpose of an infobox is "to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article". I would appreciate more time to develop a solution, here. Sincerely, [[User:HopsonRoad]] 19:11, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

== Mountain warfare – WWI ==

Hi [[User:‎Chiswick Chap|‎Chiswick Chap]], thank you for your addition of an informative and well-sourced section on camouflage to this article. In your edit comment, you suggested bringing across a bit on WWI mountain warfare. I looked at [[Mountain warfare#World War I]] and found it to be among many sections in that article without any citations. Perhaps that could be fixed in that article, before it is brought across here. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad]] 21:45, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

:: I hadn't even seen that article. I merely mentioned that the topic deserved coverage, and I've at least illustrated it in the snow cam section. There is material at [[Italian Front (World War I)]], not of my making. You may find [https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/most-treacherous-battle-world-war-i-italian-mountains-180959076/ The Smithsonian's report] a useful starting-point. All the best, [[User:Chiswick Chap|Chiswick Chap]] ([[User talk:Chiswick Chap|talk]]) 21:52, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

== Choice of images ==

[[User:Manelolo|Manelolo]] replaced an image, with the following comment, "replace bad quality pic with featured pic". Here are the two images: [[File:Warriors of Lapland.jpg|right|thumb|150px|'''New:''' A Finnish soldier with a [[reindeer]] in Lapland during the [[Continuation War]] in 1944. Reindeer were used to pull supply sleighs along the snow.]]
[[File:The War in Finland, 1940 HU55566.jpg|thumb|left|150px|'''Old:''' Finnish [[ski troops]] during the [[Winter War]].]]I don't concur with the assessment that the new one is superior for illustrating the article, except for having a higher degree of artistic merit. 

The '''Old''' image shows camouflaged troops in position with the skis that they used to travel there. The caption doesn't have to do very much to explain the significance of their tactics, nor is there any doubt that it depicts warfighting. 

The '''New''' image relies entirely on the caption to tell its significance. The person depicted is not in a warfighting posture and is not wearing winter camouflage. Therefore, what we might be looking at could be a reindeer herder or hunter. The image may also give undue weight to the role of draft animals in the conflict. 

What is the assessment of other editors? Sincerely, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 21:03, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
:[[c:Commons:Featured pictures]] should not be confused with [[Wikipedia:Featured pictures]] -- a major distinction between the two is that the Wikipedia version emphasizes the encyclopedic value (i.e. ability to illustrate the subject matter) of an image. Having spent some years at the latter, I agree that the previous image has more encyclopedic value for the reasons you state. [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 22:07, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
::Agreed. The old image is of far more use. ([[User:Hohum|<b style="color: Green;">Hohum</b>]] [[User talk:Hohum|<sup style="color: Red;">@</sup>]]) 23:59, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
:: Agreed, my bad. [[User:Manelolo|Manelolo]] ([[User talk:Manelolo|talk]]) 05:44, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

::: Agree, the old image is apposite, relevant, and encyclopedic, enhances the article, and gives an idea of what was involved in fighting in such conditions. The new one looks as if someone is joking about. [[User:Chiswick Chap|Chiswick Chap]] ([[User talk:Chiswick Chap|talk]]) 08:20, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

:::: I mean, to be fair, it's not a joke. At that time and age, reindeer were as important to cold-weather/arctic warfare as horses were to more "temperate-climate" warfare. :-D Although not a sexy topic, true. But as the saying goes, "amateurs talk about tactics, professionals talk about supply." Nevertheless, the old pic is better suited for the article and the fuss can be closed (since I switched the pic). [[User:Manelolo|Manelolo]] ([[User talk:Manelolo|talk]]) 10:10, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
{{outdent|::::}}Thank you, [[User:Manelolo|Manelolo]], for your considerate replies here and for your good-faith efforts to improve Wikipedia! Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 11:06, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

*I too prefer the old, self-explanatory, image, because I don't like the way the new one needs so much explanation in the caption. For me, technical quality is a lesser consideration. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] &#124; [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 11:53, 16 March 2018 (UTC).

== Winter warfare ==
This article is about winter warfare. During the Raid on Kirkenes in July is was about 17° C outside. Thats recreational weather. Nothing to do with main topic of this article.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Gonzosft|Gonzosft]] ([[User talk:Gonzosft#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gonzosft|contribs]]) 10:22, 3 January 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:{{reply| Gonzosft }} Arctic warfare is also within the scope this article, as described in the lead sentence. It's purposely titled "Cold-weather warfare" to address such issues as you mention. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 15:44, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
::What Cold/Arctic issues did that raid have? If it's none, it's not a good example to use in the article, even if it was conducted in the Arctic. ([[User:Hohum|<b style="color: Green;">Hohum</b>]] [[User talk:Hohum|<sup style="color: Red;">@</sup>]]) 16:48, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
:::I concur. I have deleted the entire section on WWII naval operations in the arctic, none of which mentioned issues of cold in the text. Thanks for your discussion, here. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 17:45, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

== "Sausage war" ==

{{ping|Vuo}} Thank you for your analysis, regarding Finnish tactics against the Russians. I searched several sources and couldn't find support for the material regarding field kitchens, except for a brief description of a "sausage war" where combatants from both sides attacked encampments where there was a field kitchen. See, for example, [https://books.google.com/books?id=yXsLNVaDfcoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=battle+of+suomussalmi+analysis&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj_xZqon-rmAhVSbs0KHSipBcoQ6AEwAnoECAQQAg#v=snippet&q=shift%20rotation&f=false A ''Frozen Hell: The Russo-Finnish Winter War of 1939–1940'' By William R. Trotter]. I have reverted your entry, but welcome further contributions, supported by references. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 15:33, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

== Not global? ==

Hi {{u|Dentren}}, I notice that you put a "non-world-wide" badge on this article. Do you have any sources that would help make it more so, bearing in mind that not all the world has cold weather? I would be very interested to see them. I found the sources cited to be difficult enough to come by. 

As it is, the article shows Swedish and French historical battles, Finnish troops fighting Russians, British warships iced up, a Russian tank, a Norwegian fighting vehicle, an Austro-Hungarian ski patrol, a Japanese helicopter, a Russian missile battery, and a Russian submarine. It also cites the cold-weather exercises done by ten countries. Look at the sources cited, I find a variety of nationalities represented and writings about a variety of militaries, as well. So, I wonder if, absent more international useful sources, whether the tag is warranted. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 17:00, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

:Thank you for your comment. I suggest to search for sources in French, Russian, Danish, Norwegian and Swedish (Finnish literature is already cited in some places). China, Pakistan and India have also been significantly involved in conflicts or exercises in cold-weather warfare (in the borders between these countries). So far it seem that certain definition in the article are heavily based on US military doctrine. While the bias existis in both in images and text content, is it worse in terms of content.  [[User:Dentren|<b style="color:green">Dentren</b>]] &#124; [[User_talk:Dentren|<sup><b style="color: Grey;">Ta</b><b style="color: Green">lk</b></sup>]] 08:53, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

::Thank you for your reply, {{u|Dentren}}. I fear that searching for content in a foreign language and then being able to understand it is a high bar for content in a Wikipedia article. If you have the capability to at least identify some likely sources, I'm willing to run the links that you provide through Google Translate and see what they say. Sincerely, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 20:03, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

::: This is mainly out of my area of interest, but I think it's mainly a matter of tone and presentation, which with the images and mentions of US handbooks and so on does look and feel rather too American at the moment. If I was going to make just one change it would be to choose something else for the lead image than the current SEALs publicity photo - I mean, "camouflaged" but sitting up and silhouetted against the skyline... it sets the wrong tone. I can read Swedish (and probably Norwegian and Danish) without trouble so am happy to help if you come across any likely Nordic documents. Indian and Pakistani materials might easily be in English, if you can get any, but if not there are certainly Hindi- and Urdu-speaking editors who could help there. [[User:Chiswick Chap|Chiswick Chap]] ([[User talk:Chiswick Chap|talk]]) 20:24, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
::::I might have a book that can help here that I read back in university, I think it's called "Battling the Elements" and is an overview of various battles where weather played a significant role - probably Western-focused, almost certainly a tertiary source, and I seem to recall that it was mostly about 20th century operations, but it might at least have some suggestions for more content to cover. Will dig it out tonight and see if there's anything there which we don't have covered. [[User:Creffett|creffett]] ([[User talk:Creffett|talk]]) 20:42, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
:::::All right, found it - "Battling the Elements: Weather and Terrain in the Conduct of War," by (I wish I were making this up) Harold Winters (and other people...but really, a book on weather by a guy named Winters). As expected, not a ton there, and very Western-focused. It has a good overview of the impact of cold, snow, and ice on military operations (19th century onward), along with discussions of both Napoleon and Hitler's invasions of Russia. There's also some discussion of alpine combat, though I'm not sure how much of that belongs here versus in [[Mountain warfare]].
:::::
:::::From looking at the article, I see a couple of areas where a more global perspective could be added, though I don't have actual thoughts on what to add. The current article is definitely Western-centric, and I think that East Asia and South Asia might be good places to start. Off the top of my head, I wonder if any of the following areas had battles which were impacted by cold climates:
:::::* Hokkaido - I think it's subarctic
:::::* Sakhalin Island (either the Russo-Japanese war or the Russo-Soviet front of WW2...though Russia shows up plenty in this page already)
:::::* Northern China/Mongolia (actually, I wonder if there are any sources about how it affected the Mongols...)
:::::* India/Pakistan (I think the Karakorum mountains are the ones on their shared northern border - did any of their conflicts take place there? Also the Sino-Indian war, since if I recall correctly the Himalayas were the locus of dispute there.
:::::
:::::There was one good thing I'll add - Winters discusses "arctic hysteria" and the general impact of the arctic environment on mental health and morale, which doesn't appear to be in the article. [[User:Creffett|creffett]] ([[User talk:Creffett|talk]]) 23:19, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

: you all forgot the Battle of Moscow 1941 when german infantry in summer uniforms was faced with sovjet elite troops from siberia. attacking on ski and winter camouflage suits. whatch video from minute 5:00 --[[User:Gonzosft|Gonzosft]] ([[User talk:Gonzosft|talk]]) 11:34, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdD0Xps2B6A

{{u|Creffett}}, Thank you for suggesting ''Battling the Elements''. Looking inside, I see only five pages with mention of cold on them, as follow:
*P. 46 discusses cold fronts.
*P. 81 discusses the impact of cold in Russia and its effect on Napoleon and the Germans in WWII.
*P. 85 discusses the Chosen Reservoir campaign.
*P. 92 discusses German preparations for winter in 1943 and a 1942 cold-weather handbook.
*P. 96 discusses American troops facing weather in the Battle of the Bulge, the Alueutian campaign, and mentions the German 1942 handbook.
Of these, the German handbook would be new to the article. The "arctic hysteria" is a reference to the psychological reaction to prolonged winter darkness, sometimes known now as [https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/seasonal-affective-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20364651 Seasonal affective disorder (SAD)]. 

{{u|Gonzosft}}, thank you for mentioning the [[Battle of Moscow]]. It appears that there is some good cold-weather warfare-relevant information here.

Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 01:19, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

*The Falklands war is an obvious example of a recent cold-weather campaign that's missing (and one where for obvious reasons English-language sources are likely to be easy to find); both directly in terms of the weather's effect on (particularly) naval operations, and indirectly in that Argentina was so afraid of a Chilean intervention that its three specialist cold-weather brigades were all left guarding the Patagonian border. [[Timeline of the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic in May 2020|Benedict Arnold's invasion of Quebec]] would be another obvious historical example, and would provide some variety from what's essentially [[List of wars involving Russia in the winter]].&nbsp;‑&nbsp;[[User:Iridescent|Iridescent]] 11:26, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
::Thank you for these suggestions, {{u| Iridescent}}. This source, [https://www.csmonitor.com/1982/0625/062534.html "Argentine troops tell why war lost"] suggests that the weather was cold-wet, e.g. freezing rain. Probably just within the scope of this article. [[Benedict Arnold's expedition to Quebec|Arnold reached Quebec City]] on November 14. It appears that wilderness terrain, more than weather, was responsible for his difficulties. Heading north in late September, suggests that he would have expected the autumnal weather that he encountered. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 12:53, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
{{outdent|::}}{{u|Dentren}}, you can see the changes that I've made to increase the global scope of the article, [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Cold-weather_warfare&diff=954630805&oldid=953941788 here]. In summary, I've added:
*Japanese historical examples
*Information from the ''Taschenbuch für den Winterkrieg''
*Soviet WWII doctrine
*Experience from the [[Falklands War]]
*An overview of winter warfare in "Historical lessons learned"
*New, more diverse images
Based on the references that I compiled below, is there more that you see to do to warrant removing the "non-world-wide" badge? Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 16:48, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
:{{u|HopsonRoad}}, I think there is definitely many improvements. It is always difficult to settle on the proportion of images, sources and examples, specielly since US and UK content is what most editors finds easiest to find and read. Given the size of their armies and geopolitical significance more examples of Chinese and Russian cold-weather warfare would be desirable. [[User:Dentren|<b style="color:green">Dentren</b>]] &#124; [[User_talk:Dentren|<sup><b style="color: Grey;">Ta</b><b style="color: Green">lk</b></sup>]] 15:45, 3 May 2020 (UTC)     
::{{u|Dentren}}, I concur that Russian and Chinese examples would be desirable, and I looked for them. The two examples of current activities that I found, [https://www.rbth.com/defence/2017/06/28/arctic-survival-kit-how-russian-soldiers-cope-with-cold-in-the-far-north_787960 Arctic survival kit: How Russian soldiers cope with cold in the Far North] and [https://weather.com/travel/news/winter-china-soldiers Chinese Soldiers Undergo Extreme Training Exercises in Frigid Weather] seemed to be lacking in substance. I found it difficult to find a discussion of doctrine or cold-adapted equipment. There was and is a discussion of "Arctic operations" at the end of the article that discusses the circumpolar geopolitics, bases and assets.  

::Given these considerations, should the badge remain, or should I seek input from the others who have contributed to this discussion? Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 18:33, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

::''Update'': I've also checked the sources in the [[Russian Ground Forces]] and [[People's Liberation Army]] articles for material and found little of value for use here. I feel that the statement, "The examples and perspective in this article ''deal primarily with the US military'' and do not represent a worldwide view of the subject", ''is no longer true''. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 16:07, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

===Propose to remove badge===
{{u|Dentren}}, [[User:Chiswick Chap|Chiswick Chap]],  [[User:Creffett|creffett]], and [[User:Gonzosft|Gonzosft]], thank you all for your suggestions on how to improve this article. As you can see, below, I have made a good-faith effort to find citations, pertaining to this subject. I have also substantially increased the content of the article, based on those citations. I have searched for more in-depth writings about Russian and Chinese cold-weather warfare doctrine and materiel, but have only found a few examples of publicity material. If anyone can offer something further, I'd be interested to incorporate it into the article.

In the meantime, because the recent additions add examples from Japan, China, Argentina, and India/Pakistan, introduce substantive topics with German and Russian material, add a substantive discussion of Russian practice, and add new and more diverse images (including a substitution in the lead image), I feel that the badge statement that "The examples and perspective in this article ''deal primarily with the US military'' and do not represent a worldwide view of the subject", ''is no longer true''. Therefore, I propose to ''remove the badge'', unless there is a consensus against doing so. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 13:35, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
:{{u|HopsonRoad}}, I see {{u|Chiswick Chap}} has removed the tag, and I agree with it. Very well done. [[User:Creffett|creffett]] ([[User talk:Creffett|talk]]) 13:53, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

::{{u|HopsonRoad}}, I have looked at the article briefly and it seem that picture selection is more balanced now. Im not sure for now if there  is anything to do about the sources used in the article that seem heavily connected to NATO. But I guess NATO-linked sources are among the best one available... I agree the template can be removed until further issues are discussed in detail (e.g. lack of content regarding contemporary Chinese, Indian and Russian definitions, research and doctrines). Also, article may have [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images|too many images]], particularly in the "Training by nation" section.   [[User:Dentren|<b style="color:green">Dentren</b>]] &#124; [[User_talk:Dentren|<sup><b style="color: Grey;">Ta</b><b style="color: Green">lk</b></sup>]] 21:05, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
:::{{u|Dentren}}, I look forward to sources surfacing regarding contemporary Chinese, Indian and Russian doctrine and materiel. I've looked hard for them and found only official, self-congratulatory websites. Much of the content is based on physics, not doctrine, e.g. the nature of snow, mud, precipitation, and cold. It's how to handle those conditions that is of interest, especially if there are different approaches. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 21:26, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

===Possible references===
*[http://redcultura.com/index.php/pdf/download/id=637494&type=stream World War II Winter and Mountain Warfare Tactics]
*[https://books.google.com/books?id=5yVzAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA1021&lpg=PA1021&dq=Argentine+cold-weather+troops&source=bl&ots=UJQvgrT7un&sig=ACfU3U25Qm3V-R1Ul5nbaLYAuvfFLBoP9g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiLuvHR1pLpAhWJg-AKHTAdBowQ6AEwGXoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=Argentine%20cold-weather%20troops&f=false Encyclopedia of Military Science, G. Kurt Piehler, SAGE Publications, Jul 24, 2013]
*[https://www.google.com/books/edition/Finnish_Military_Effectiveness_in_the_Wi/t_OODAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Finnish+Military+Effectiveness+in+the+Winter+War,+1939-1940&printsec=frontcover "Finnish Military Effectiveness in the Winter War, 1939-1940"]
*[http://www.90thidpg.us/Reference/Manuals/SS%2018.pdf US Army translation of ''Taschenbuch für den Winterkrieg'']
*[https://www.google.com/books/edition/Battling_the_Elements/yvHbDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Battling+the+Elements:+Weather+and+Terrain+in+the+Conduct+of+War,%22++Harold+Winters&printsec=frontcover Battling the Elements—Weather and Terrain in the Conduct of War By Harold A. Winters]
*[https://www.adn.com/alaska-life/2018/05/15/when-japan-invaded-alaska-what-you-need-to-know-about-the-75th-anniversary-of-the-battle-of-attu/ When Japan invaded Alaska: What you need to know about the 75th anniversary of the Battle of Attu]
*[https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/Hot%20Spots/Documents/India-Pak/Chopra-Himalayn-war-1963.pdf  THE HIMALAYAN BORDER 'WAR: AN INDIAN MILITARY VIEW]
*[https://arctichealth.org/media/pubs/298806/v1s2ch10.pdf COLD, CASUALTIES, AND CONQUESTS: THE EFFECTS OF COLD ON WARFARE]
*[http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us-archive/FM31-70%281959%29.pdf US Army "Basic Cold Weather Manual" 1959]
*[https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/atp3-90-97.pdf US Army "Mountain Warfare and Cold Weather Operations" 2016]
*[https://ciehub.info/ref/MCWP/3-35-1.pdf US Marines manual "Cold Weather Operations" 2000]
*[https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/07/30/a-new-cold-war-how-the-army-is-preparing-for-a-fight-in-the-arctic/ Army Times "A new cold war: How the Army is preparing for a fight in the Arctic"]
*[https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2019/02/27/northern-border-with-canada-not-southern-is-what-worries-norad-leaders/ Military Times "Northern border along Arctic, not southern, is what worries NORAD leaders"]
*[https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a251427.pdf USMC cold weather doctrine "In Every Time and Every Place"]
*[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13518046.2016.1129877?scroll=top&needAccess=true&journalCode=fslv20 Training the US Army to Fight the Red Army in Winter—Former Finnish Officers and Military Knowledge Transfer from Finland to the United States During the Early Cold War, 1947–1964]
*[https://www.csmonitor.com/1982/0625/062534.html Argentine troops tell why war lost]

Relating to the modern Russian military forces:
*[https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm100-2-1.pdf US Army Field Manual "THE SOVIET ARMY: Operations and Tactics]
*[https://www.rbth.com/defence/2017/06/28/arctic-survival-kit-how-russian-soldiers-cope-with-cold-in-the-far-north_787960 Arctic survival kit: How Russian soldiers cope with cold in the Far North]
*[http://redstar.ru/rokossovtsy-uchatsya-ne-po-shablonu/ "Rokossovtsy learn not by the pattern"]
*[https://dvoku.mil.ru/Ob_uchrezhdenii/Istoriya Main page About university History]
*[https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12072218@egNews#txt The only ice range in the Far East built to train future commanders of the Arctic units]
*[http://ens.mil.ru/education/higher/academy/more.htm?id=8680@morfOrgEduc Far Eastern Higher Combined Arms Command School named after Marshal of the Soviet Union KK Rokossovsky]

Connected to the [[Siachen conflict]]:
*[https://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-indian-soldiers-have-died-in-siachen-since-1984/20120828.htm 846 Indian soldiers have died in Siachen since 1984]
*[http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,958254,00.html The Himalayas War at the Top Of the World—Fighting at breathtaking altitudes, Indians and Pakistanis are locked in an icy stalemate By Edward W. Desmond/Kashmir]  
*[http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/Army-Chief-Visits-Siachen-Glacier-After-17-Casualties-in-3-Months-Due-to-Avalanches/2016/04/01/article3358063.ece Army Chief Visits Siachen Glacier After 17 Casualties in 3 Months Due to Avalanches]

== Please add these 2 battles ==

Please add battle of Lund (1676) and battle of Narva (1700)[[Special:Contributions/92.34.208.212|92.34.208.212]] ([[User talk:92.34.208.212|talk]]) 18:52, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
:Thank you for these suggestions. The [[Battle of Lund]] article doesn't have any references supporting the main cold-weather effects described. There were several different [[Battle of Narva|Battles of Narva]]. Which one did you have in mind and why is it a good example for this article. Sincerely, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 20:27, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
Battle of Lund : Swedish army could not attack until the little river had frozen, which is mentioned on multiple Swedish web sites about the battle.
Battle of Narva : I mean the one on November 30 i 1700.
And I just found that in 1461 there were 2 battles in England with snow.[[Special:Contributions/92.34.201.106|92.34.201.106]] ([[User talk:92.34.201.106|talk]]) 18:46, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

== Too many images? ==
[[File:10-2 Foto Bonardi.jpg|thumb|Italian mountain troops in WW1]]
{{u|Hohum}}, I see that you have added some images to the 20th century section. One problem is that the create [[MOS:SANDWICH]]; another is that there are now three images showing troops in trenches or other protected location (Tommies in trench, Austrians on mountain, and Finns behind berm). Perhaps we should choose one image from WWI and one from WWII, but not both showing soldiers behind barriers. If the images were diverse enough, I would suggest a gallery. Thank you for your interest in this article! Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 18:50, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I've added a suggested image, above for WWI troops in motion. I suggest that we drop the muddy pictures of the British and Austrian troops, drop the Battle of the Bulge image and keep the Finns. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 19:05, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
:I think I just moved them around in order to prevent them crashing into later sections. I agree, remove low quality images as required, while keeping as much relevancy and diversity as possible. ([[User:Hohum|<b style="color: Green;">Hohum</b>]] [[User talk:Hohum|<sup style="color: Red;">@</sup>]]) 19:13, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

== Warfare vs combat ==

{{ping|AdoTang}} I note the possibility of substituting "combat" for "warfare" in the lead sentence. It's good for tautology, but is it accurate? Let's discuss. [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 21:21, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
:Perhaps "military operations" is a good alternative, because warfare isn't necessarily active combat. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 21:24, 23 April 2023 (UTC)