View source for Talk:D-Wave Systems

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==Untitled==
As I put in the article, on January 19, 2007 D-Wave announced that they would be demonstrating the first commercial 16-[[qubit]] [[Adiabatic process (quantum mechanics)|adiabatic]] [[quantum computer]] at two events, one at the [[Computer History Museum]] in [[Mountain View, California]] on February 13th, 2007 and the second at the [[Science World at TELUS World of Science|Telus World of Science]] in [[Vancouver]], [[Canada]] on February 15th, 2007.<ref name=announcement />

I am hoping that once the event has happened there will be enough interest in this topic that people who know a lot more about the physics, technical details, etc. will edit and add to to this and related pages. It may also be a good idea for someone to create a page about [[adiabatic quantum computation|adiabatic quantum computers]].

There is a lot of information out there. Here are some external links I have found through a [http://www.google.com/search?q=adiabatic+quantum Google search on "adiabatic quantum"] and some sites:

*[http://dwave.wordpress.com/ rose.blog] - a lot of info in the blog by Dr. Rose
*[http://arxiv.org/find/grp_q-bio,grp_cs,grp_physics,grp_math,grp_nlin/1/all:+AND+Computer+AND+Quantum+Adiabatic/0/1/0/all/0/1 arXiv.org Search Results] - academic papers related to Adiabatic Quantum Computation
*[http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=959902  How powerful is adiabatic quantum computation?]
*[http://www.citebase.org/abstract?id=oai%3AarXiv.org%3Aquant-ph%2F0405098 Adiabatic Quantum Computation is Equivalent to Standard Quantum Computation]

.. and a lot more

[[User:MartinSieg|MartinSieg]] 20:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


== 256 & 512 Qbit chip ==

Needs update with mention of D-Wave's upcoming 256 Qbit chip, around mid 2012 & 512 Qbit chip, around 1 Jan 2013.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/11/dwave-systems-announces-512-qubit.html
--[[Special:Contributions/59.92.162.251|59.92.162.251]] ([[User talk:59.92.162.251|talk]]) 14:50, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

==Based on pseudoscience==
I don't know how to express it, but this company's technology is vaporware and pseudoscience. There are several problems with both the hardware and the computation: (1) there has been no fundamental breakthroughs in the physics required to create a quantum computer (an immediate Nobel event) and (2) it is strongly suspected that quantum computing cannot solve NP-complete problems in polynomial time. I am not a physicist so I will not address (1), however, I am a computer scientists (PhD), although quantum computing is not my particular field. Quantum computing is BQP and not NP, nor is there any known algorithm for computing NP-complete problems in Polynomial time on a quantum computer. If there are no NP->P transformations then this device is at no advantage to a classical computer so saying it `solved the traveling salesman problem' is a little misleading: answers to this problem can be computed in exponential time on a classical machine. I'm not sure how to say this other than that this article (and it's mention at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer) is highly suspect. I do not believe that the pseudoscience or fraudulent claims should be allowed in reference material. Would it be possible to mark this to make the reader wary?

Response: You raise some good points. However, you admit that you are neither a physicist nor a quantum computing specialist; whereas D-Wave employs several physicists and quantum computing specialists. Thus it's quite possible that they know something that you and the rest of us do not. Further, since D-Wave is a commercial enterprise, not an academic organization, the more significant their breakthroughs, the less likely they would be to reveal the details. So, hopefully, D-Wave will eventually demonstrate a system that behaves like some kind of "quantum" computer should and also performs as well as they predict. -- [[User:Redcedarsalmon|Red Cedar Salmon]] 20:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Response: Wikipedia is a place for established fact, not speculative statements. Anyone can make an outrageous claim. Does that warrant a spot on Wikipedia? Of course not - it would quickly become an advertizing trick. It is entirely possible that an outrageous claim is true. But the burden of proof rests with those making the claim. In science, claims have merit only to the extent that they're verifiable - corporate secrecy is not a free ticket out of scientific scrutiny. 
Speculative articles such as this one are an embarrassment to Wikipedia.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.118.179.114|68.118.179.114]] ([[User talk:68.118.179.114|talk]]) 03:08, 8 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Response: I think that if NASA and Google spent the money to buy DWAVE and the cost of refrigeration ($1 Million/year) it is highly doubtful that it is based on pseudoscience. A great number of scientists work for NASA and Google, I think they wouldn't be able to be fooled by these imposters!  <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2601:543:C002:1EA0:2136:BA99:3362:C883|2601:543:C002:1EA0:2136:BA99:3362:C883]] ([[User talk:2601:543:C002:1EA0:2136:BA99:3362:C883|talk]]) 14:46, 22 March 2016 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Something can be "science", not "pseudoscience", and still not actually work.  FTL travel doesn't work, either, yet NASA scientists have published work on that too.[[Special:Contributions/69.43.35.98|69.43.35.98]] ([[User talk:69.43.35.98|talk]]) 21:01, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

== Article states that NP-complete problems "not exactly solvable"? ==
According to the article, the company's CTO has stated that 'NP-complete problems "are probably not exactly solvable, no matter how big, fast or advanced computers get"'. 

This strikes me as a very odd thing to say. As I understand it, all [[NP-complete]] problems are ''by definition'' in [[NP]], which means that they ''must'' be exactly solvable, or their solutions could not be verifiable in polynomial time, which is one of the defining attributes of NP problems, even if you need a nondeterministic oracle to produce the candidate correct result. What's going on here? -- [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] 10:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

:Agreed. From what I've read an NP-complete problem is one that is definitly solvable, (so we could build an algorithm to solve it), but that it would take an unreasonable amount of time to reach the solution. A QC page from NEC states that to completely factor a 300-digit number would take ~10 million years on a conventional computer, but only "several tens of seconds" on a QC. http://www.nec.co.jp/rd/Eng/innovative/E3/top.html [[User:Sahuagin|Sahuagin]] 15:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

:After reading what Dr. Rose wrote, I think what he means is that in an NP-complete problem, you never really know if your answer is the ''best possible'' answer (IE: An exact solution). If instead of only aiming for the single best answer, you provide a threshold that determines what you would consider to be a ''sufficient'' answer, then the computer can stop when it finds a ''sufficient'' answer. 

:Now, I don't get though why the computer couldn't just run through ALL possible solutions, selecting the best one. From what I have read about QC's thus far, that is what I thought they would be used for. To me what he explained sounds like a conventional computing solution to NP-complete problems. If a QC can only give you an adequate answer, and not the exact answer, then what is the point of a QC? [[User:Sahuagin|Sahuagin]] 15:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

By "probably not exactly solvable" he was stating that it was likely that P=NP is not the case. It's currently the case that solutions may be found to NP problems, but with a very high cost in terms of speed.[[User:125.14.79.155|125.14.79.155]] 16:46, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

== NPOV ==
An earlier version of this article read like a company press release. I've toned it down a bit, but it still makes no mention of any of the skeptical opinions which have been expressed about this demonstration (for example, see [http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=198]), and the apparent lack, so far, of independent technical verification of their results. -- [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] 10:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

This article is a great example of where the Wikipedia principles fail. A typical mix pseudoscience with emotional bias, a hint of conspiracy theory and special interest paid writers. Reminds me of some esoteric articles. [[Special:Contributions/134.3.129.7|134.3.129.7]] ([[User talk:134.3.129.7|talk]]) 21:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

: I'm not sure that WP principles "fail" for this article. They are just mutually exclusive (meaning that they cannot all be satisfied at once). In this case, D-Wave is a real product using new principles and created by real engineers and scientists and has actually been purchased. Therefore, it is [[WP:NOTE|notable]]. However, since there is considerable doubt that it actually performs quantum computations [citation needed], there cannot exist a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] confirming what D-Wave's press releases claim. Also, at least a bit of [[WP:NPOV|presenting opinion as fact]] cannot really be avoided, for the same reason. In summary, calling a company's statements "pseudoscience" just because Quantum Computing is a new and conjectural science is not justified, and neither is this an example of a complete failure of WP's principles. While the article, [[WP:balance|on balance]], should currently appear in WP, future developments (probably requiring several years' time) may either confirm inclusion or form a basis for deletion. When and as reliable published opinions contradicting D-Wave claims appear, they should be included in the article. [[User:David spector|David Spector]] ([[User Talk:David spector|talk]]) 15:26, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

== NP-Complete ... very hard ==
Thank you to [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] for contributions to this page. I see that you also moved [[Orion quantum computing system]] here, which I agree makes sense, at least until there is consensus that it is a proven system of historical significance.
I guess my original version sounded like a press release because most of the information I found on the web was written by Dr. Rose. That's why we need people who know more about the related topics to revise the page.

My limited understanding of NP-complete problems and what Dr. Rose was saying about them is that they are not solvable in polynomial time by any foreseeable technology, and it is already accepted that we can accomplish a lot with ansers that are "good enough". If someone can clarify this in the article, please go ahead.

[[User:MartinSieg|MartinSieg]] 15:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

:"That's why we need people who know more about the related topics to revise the page."
This includes criticism. [[WP:WWIN|WP is not a brochure]]. -[[User:Stevertigo|Ste]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|vertigo]] 21:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

== Separate info about company and tech ==
Perhaps this article should be strictly about D-Wave, including its history, people, goals, claims, and of course how others view it (skeptics, etc.).

My intent for the article about the [[Orion quantum computing system]], which was merged with this one, was to provide information about the technology itself. Perhaps we need an article on [[Adiabatic quantum computer|adiabatic quantum computing]] instead? I feel that the article [[Adiabatic process (quantum mechanics)]] is insufficient. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:MartinSieg|MartinSieg]] ([[User talk:MartinSieg|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MartinSieg|contribs]]) 04:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

At the moment, the company and the product are inseparable, since so far, the Orion quantum computing system is not available for sale, and no-one has one, apart from D-Wave Systems themselves. When these machines are widely deployed, or become famous in a context that is separate from their creator company, then the product itself will of course deserve its own article, in the same way as any notable computer product. -- [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] 10:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

== Cliff Notes on Quantum Computing ==

Yes, an NP-complete problem is in NP by definition, and is therefore a yes-no question by definition and is not amenable to approximate solutions.  However, there are optimization problems that can be called FNP-complete:  They are NP-hard, and if P = NP, then they are in (the function version of) P.  What Rose means is that we should be happy with approximate solutions to FNP-complete optimization problems, even though exact solutions are out of reach, even with quantum computers.

However, there is a theorem from the 1980s that for many FNP-complete problems, in particular for the travelling salesman problem, there is a threshold beyond which approximate solutions are ''already'' FNP-complete.  This is contrary to what some of the press releases from D-Wave imply.  On the other hand, in some places Rose steps back from this implication, and says that his computer might only provide ''some'' speedup for optimization problems in FNP, maybe only a polynomial speedup rather than an exponential speedup.  If so, it would have no real bearing on NP-hardness, because all such notions allow a polynomial fudge factor.

The disclaimers from D-Wave imply that the Orion is not really a quantum computer, but a quantum special-purpose device.  If you set aside quantum mechanics for the moment, it is easy to understand that a computer is suppose to be general-purpose, or in technical terms, Turing-complete.  If it is not Turing-complete, then it is an SPD.  Likewise a quantum computer should be quantumly Turing-complete.  Since there is no such claim in the case of the "Orion" device, it is at best a quantum SPD.  You can call it clasically Turing-complete if you count the classical computer that controls it.  The technical debate at the moment is whether D-Wave's demo has any strength even as a quantum SPD, or if it is really a classical facsimile.

If some company, D-Wave or Q-Wave or someone else, built a real quantum computer, it ''still'' would not be able to try all things in parallel and solve NP-complete problems.  Quantum computing should really be thought of as "randomized computing on steroids".  Randomized computing is a kind of parallel computing, in the sense that if you flip a coin, you can imagine parallel worlds in which the answer was both heads and tails.  It is a weak kind of parallelism that has some computational value, but only a limited amount.  Quantum computing is similarly limited, even though it is exponentially faster than classical computing (even the randomized kind) for certain structured problems such as factoring.  It is NOT thought to be all that much faster for NP-complete problems.
[[User:Greg Kuperberg|Greg Kuperberg]] 21:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

==Needed Content and Fixes==
The article is all about the recent announcement of D-Wave's and not the company itself. Content around this was needed. Material from archived versions of company website added. Content arround Orion demos pushed down the page. 
The quote of [[Andrew Steane]] was made to the Guardian newspaper so that source should be found and cited.  Positive opinion on the announcement along with a call for peer review was made by [[David Deutsch]], citation needed. [[User:Shadesofgrey|Shadesofgrey]] 00:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

:I study quantum computing and you have my attention.  What do you want to know? [[User:Greg Kuperberg|Greg Kuperberg]] 04:23, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

::Greg, what is needed is a description of an adiabatic quantum computer. [[User:Shadesofgrey|Shadesofgrey]] 04:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

== Trivia ==
Should we note that their name is most likely a pun on d-wave as in <math>l=2\,</math> angular momentum state, d-wave superconductivity, etc.?--[[User:Lionelbrits|Lionelbrits]] 16:40, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Given the scepticism in the media coudl we say that D-Wave product are both Quantum Computers andNot Quantum computers, both at the same time? ;)  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/135.245.192.10|135.245.192.10]] ([[User talk:135.245.192.10|talk]]) 08:27, 20 May 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Speaking Truth to Parallelism ==
For additional skepticism, see also: Shtetl-Optimized blog by Scott Aaronson
[http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/]
[http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=198]-[[User:69.87.200.74|69.87.200.74]] 01:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

== Deutsch on D-Wave ==
For an interview with David Deutsch, expressing skepticism about what precisely D-Wave has achieved but optimism about the general prognosis for quantum computing, see:
Wired 2007-02, ''The Father of Quantum Computing''
[http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/02/72734?currentPage=all]
[[User:Iain David Stewart|Iain David Stewart]] 22:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:Thanks for the reference! The page has moved though.
:Archived version: http://web.archive.org/web/20121023111610/http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/02/72734?currentPage=all
:New URL: http://archive.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/02/72734?currentPage=all
:[[User:Chrisahn|Chrisahn]] ([[User talk:Chrisahn|talk]]) 02:21, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

== Nov 2007 demo ==

http://www.news.com/D-Waves-quantum-computer-ready-for-latest-demo/2100-1010_3-6217842.html?tag=newsmap -[[User:Ravedave|Ravedave]] 22:08, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

== Orion ==

I keep an eye on slashdot and they recently posted an article referring to tomshardware that says Orion now has 28 qubits. See [http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/super-cooled-quantum-computing,1976.html]. The only thing I'm not sure of is if this is a reliable source. <span style="border:2px solid orange;">[[User:Laptopdude|<span style="background:turquoise;color:purple">&nbsp;'''Laptopdude'''&nbsp;</span>]][[User talk:Laptopdude|<span style="background:purple;color:turquoise">&nbsp;'''Talk'''&nbsp;</span>]]</span> 05:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

:It's unlikely they have any qubits ;) Tom's hardware probably isn't an RS for this article. [[User:SesquipedalianVerbiage|<span style="color:#CC7722; font-family:Papyrus;">'''Verbal'''</span>]] <small>[[User talk:SesquipedalianVerbiage#top|<span style="color:grey; font-family:Papyrus;">chat</span>]]</small> 07:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
::I'm much more certain about this one. [http://www.dwavesys.com/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=9&cntnt01origid=15&cntnt01returnid=21] <span style="border:2px solid orange;">[[User:Laptopdude|<span style="background:turquoise;color:purple">&nbsp;'''Laptopdude'''&nbsp;</span>]][[User talk:Laptopdude|<span style="background:purple;color:turquoise">&nbsp;'''Talk'''&nbsp;</span>]]</span> 21:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
:::I hope you're being sarcastic, that's a press release. :) -- [[user:intgr|intgr]]&nbsp;<small>[[user talk:intgr|[talk]]]</small> 10:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

== AQC? ==

Is this technology AQC, near adiabatic evolution (ie finite error) or something else. Published coments suggest that it is but D-Wave itself isn't being exactly clear on the matter. Here are three pro AQC citations. Perhaps, these are of use to some contributor. 

{{cite book | last = Meglicki | first = Zdzislaw | authorlink = Zdzislaw Meglicki | title = Quantum Computing Without Magic: Devices | publisher = [[MIT Press]] | date = 2008 | pages = 390-391 | isbn = 026213506X}} 

Kyriakos N. Sgarbas, 2007, "The Road to Quantum Artificial Intelligence" in T.S.Papatheodorou, D.N.Christodoulakis and N.N.Karanikolas (eds), "Current Trends in Informatics", Vol.A, pp.469-477, New Technologies Publications, Athens, 2007 (SET 978-960-89784-0-9)

G.P. Berman. A.R. Bishop, F. Borgonovi, V.I. Tsifrinovich, 2007 "Controllable Adiabatic Manipulation of the Qubit State" arXiv:0705.1255v1 [quant-ph] 
[[User:Shadesofgrey|Shadesofgrey]] ([[User talk:Shadesofgrey|talk]]) 01:10, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

== Peer Review == 

Some earlier versions of this article cited D-Wave's articles to counter balance statements that none of D-wave's has been shared with the physics community. Thus maintaining a NPOV. However, these were citations to the a pre-print server, whichis not what most would consider peer reviewed -- but it does have a referal system to qualify contributors. So citations were removed. However, it is clear that D-Wave has many peer review articles -- see below. Perhaps, these can be worked in beside comments like "which has not been published or shared with the physics community"

Phys. Rev. A 79, 022107 (2009); Int. J. Quant. Inf. 7, 725 (2009); Phys. Rev. Lett. 101, 117003 (2008); 
Phys. Rev. Lett. 100, 197001 (2008); Phys. Rev. Lett. 100, 130503 (2008); Quantum Information Processing, 7, pp. 193-209 (2008); Phys. Rev. A 78, 012352 (2008); Phys. Rev. Lett. 100, 060503 (2008); Appl. Phys. Lett. 90, 022501 (2007); Physical Review Letters, Volume 98, 177001 (2007); Phys. Rev. Lett. 98, 057004 (2007); Quantum
Information Processing 6, pp. 187-195 (2007); Phys. Rev. B 74, 104508 (2006); Phys. Rev. Lett. 96, 047006 (2006); Phys. Rev. A 74, 042318 (2006); Science 309, p. 1704 (2005); Europhys. Lett. 72(6), pp. 880-886 (2005);
New J. Phys 7, p. 230 (2005); Phys. Rev. B 72, 020503(R) (2005); Phys. Rev. B 71, 140505(R) (2005); Phys. Rev. B 71, 144501 (2005); Low Temp. Phys. 30, 661 (2004); Phys. Rev. A 70, 032322 (2004); Fizika Nizkikh Temperatur 30, 823 (2004); Phys. Rev. Lett. 92, 017001 (2004); Phys. Rev. B 70, 212513 (2004); Phys. Rev. Lett. 93, 037003 (2004); Phys. Rev. B 71, 024504 (2005); Phys. Rev. B 71, 064503 (2005); Phys. Rev. B 71, 064516 (2005); Europhys. Lett. 65, 844 (2004); Turk J Phys 27, 491 (2003); Phys. Rev. B 68, 014510 (2003); Phys. Rev. B 68, 134514 (2003); JETP Letters 77, 587 (2003); Phys. Rev. B 69, 060501(R) (2004); Phys. Rev. Lett. 91, 097906 (2003); Phys. Rev. Lett. 91, 097904 (2003); Phys. Rev. Lett. 90, 117002 (2003); Phys. Rev. B 68, 144514 (2003); Phys. Rev. B 67, 100508(R) (2003); Phys.Rev. B 67, 155104 (2003); Phys. Rev. Lett. 90, 127901 (2003); Phys. Rev. Lett. 90, 037003 (2003); Phys. Rev. B 66, 214525 (2002); Phys. Rev. B 66, 174515 (2002); 
Quantum Information Processing 1, 155 (2002); Quantum Information Processing 1, 55 (2002); Physica C 368, 310 (2002); Physica C 372-376 P1, 178 (2002); IEEE Tran. Appl. Supercond. 12, 1877 (2002); Physica B 318, 162 (2002); Low Temp. Phys. 27, 616 (2001); Phys. Rev. Lett. 86, 5369 (2001); Phys. Rev. B 63, 212502 (2001) 

[[User:Shadesofgrey|Shadesofgrey]] ([[User talk:Shadesofgrey|talk]]) 01:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

=== Neutrality, Factual Accuracy, and Lack of Recent Information ===

The article currently reads like the company has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a scam and has published nothing on what it has done, which is not only non-neutral, but false.  There is also very little recent information in the article, and a near void of information on their technology.  My addition of a very brief description of recent technology based on peer-reviewed publications with links to them ''and'' their their pre-prints was instantly undone.  Is there some reason for this information to be hidden?  The existence of these publications (among many others, e.g. those cited by Shadesofgrey above) appears to contradict statements in the article now, so even if the publications should not be linked-to in the article, it seems that the article may not currently provide a fair and accurate description of the company or its work.  I'll try to add a box at the top indicating that I think the neutrality of the article is questionable.

I fully acknowledge that I am not a neutral party with respect to this article, but apart from the photograph showing the existence of a real chip (also available at http://dwave.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/a-close-up-fully-wirebonded/) my addition only stated information published in cited peer-reviewed papers. Other photographs appear in those peer-reviewed papers, if those would be preferable. [[User:Ndickson|Ndickson]] ([[User talk:Ndickson|talk]]) 20:44, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
: The problem is the lack of independent reliable sources, whereas we have [[WP:RS]] that they probably do not have a quantum computer. They have also been show to lie in the past. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 05:54, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

:: [[WP:RS]] contains: [[Wikipedia:RS#Scholarship]].  I cited 4 peer-reviewed publications.  Are you suggesting that Physical Review B, Superconducting Science Technology, and Science are less reliable sources than blog posts by people who don't have knowledge of the technology?  Just up one paragraph from [[Wikipedia:RS#Scholarship]]: "Many Wikipedia articles rely on scholarly material. Academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources when available."  In fact, to avoid any potential confusion with a universal quantum computer, I intentionally didn't refer to it as a "quantum computer", but an "adiabatic quantum optimization processor".  The publications I cited give strong evidence that this is a valid classification, whereas the blog posts give no evidence that it is not valid, only speculative opinion.  As for your claim that "They have also been show to lie in the past." I don't think that Physical Review B, Superconducting Science Technology, or Science have been shown to intentionally publish false information, so I suggest that you provide some evidence of their supposed past lies.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ndickson|Ndickson]] ([[User talk:Ndickson|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ndickson|contribs]]) 18:18, 7 June 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::: Dwave have been shown to make untrue statements in the past (see their press releases), and as you have a clear COI you should not edit the article. Your dismissal of an expert in the area as "blog posts by people who don't have knowledge of the technology" shows your bias quite clearly. See [[WP:PRIMARY]], and lets wait for second or third party reviews by people not affiliated  with Dwave. The company have made their own bed by their attitude to the press and their scientific colleagues. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 18:54, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
:::: I'm not sure what you mean by "expert in the area", since Scott Aaronson has stated that he's not an expert in experimental physics and doesn't want to be asked about related matters: e.g. [http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=446#comment-42661].  He's an expert in computational complexity theory, which only has a loose tangential relationship with experimental quantum computing.  To my knowledge, D-Wave has not issued any press releases that contradict accepted results in complexity theory, so you'll have to give an example.  Also, Aaronson does not claim to know details of D-Wave's technology, (in fact, many of the significant criticisms appear to specifically take issue with having a lack of information about D-Wave's technology), so I'm not sure how he could give an informed statement on the state of their technology.  He certainly hasn't cited any technological reasons for his opinions on D-Wave.  [[User:Ndickson|Ndickson]] ([[User talk:Ndickson|talk]]) 21:32, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Please propose here what changes and additions you would like made. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 18:55, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

: The page was originally created as a description of the demonstration of so-called "Orion" in 2007, but it hasn't changed significantly since then.  It provides criticism, as it should, but no information on what is being criticized, and no information more recent than the listed criticisms, so it is difficult to ascertain whether even the criticism is up-to-date.

: There should be some sort of description of recent technology and recent events.  For example, the "Orion description" section, which doesn't even describe Orion, let alone its technology, refers in vague terms to technology that is several years old and no longer reflects the current state.  Also, surprisingly, there is mention of two collaborations between Google and D-Wave (2007 and 2009) in the [[Hartmut Neven]] article, but no mention of these collaborations here.  This is strong evidence that this article has become quite out-of-date and needs more recent information.  Full details of D-Wave's technology have been published, most in peer-reviewed journals, such as those I cited.

: With respect to neutrality, for example, the word "claim" appears 4 times in the introductory paragraph.  While this type of language is (probably) grammatically correct, to hold other entities to the same standard, the same could be said of almost all other scientific efforts, since individual results (i.e. "this particular instance of this apparatus did exactly this on this date") are rarely possible to independently verify.  Thus, peer-review and ''repetition'' of the experiment by independent entities for verification are used to determine the validity of experimental results (please see [[Scientific method]]).  The paper cited with evidence of qubits shows extensive results from Macroscopic Resonant Tunnelling experiments as well as Landau-Zener transition experiments, which have been performed on rf-SQUIDs many times by other independent parties, so D-Wave's results are themselves an independent verification of these effects.  This paper was accepted by Physical Review B as valid after review by independent experts in experimental superconducting quantum circuitry.  As such, this fits with the standards set out by the [[scientific method]]. {'''Edit:''' Upon further investigation, NIST has also independently verified D-Wave's coupler design in the context of a superconducting phase qubit: [http://arxiv.org/abs/1001.0816] published in PRL recently. [[User:Ndickson|Ndickson]] ([[User talk:Ndickson|talk]]) 22:58, 7 June 2010 (UTC)}

: While I understand that editing for neutrality is difficult, and open to different interpretations, it would be very difficult to argue to an independent mediator that the current article is written in a neutral tone.  I strongly support keeping critical content, especially if some sort of context for the ciriticisms is given, but the text surrounding that content must be neutral.  Although it is a large task to undertake, I would recommend that the current content and any added content eventually be rewritten by an independent party in a neutral tone. [[User:Ndickson|Ndickson]] ([[User talk:Ndickson|talk]]) 21:32, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

:: Taking into account the desire for having secondary sources supporting even peer-reviewed primary sources (one could argue that Physical Review B is not affiliated with D-Wave and thus not a primary source, but I won't go there), I recommend that the Technology Description section I attempted to add be slightly amended before adding it (bolded here just for easy reference):

:: <nowiki>[[File:DWave_128chip.jpg|| thumb | right |Optical photograph of a [[superconductivity|superconducting]] [[integrated circuit|integrated circuit]] designed to be used as a 128-qubit [[adiabatic quantum computation|adiabatic quantum optimization]] processor<ref>Next Big Future: Dwave Systems Adiabatic Quantum Computer [http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/10/dwave-systems-adiabatic-quantum.html], October 23, 2009</ref>, comprising a tiled array of 16 unit cells, mounted in a sample holder of the Quicksilver system (the successor to Orion). ''Photo courtesy of D-Wave Systems Inc.'']]
</nowiki>
:: '''As of June 2010, it has been published that a D-Wave processor comprises a programmable<ref>M. W. Johnson et al., "A scalable control system for a superconducting adiabatic quantum optimization processor," [http://iopscience.iop.org/0953-2048/23/6/065004/ Supercond. Sci. Technol. 23, 065004 (2010)]; preprint available: [http://arxiv.org/abs/0907.3757 arXiv:0907.3757]</ref> [[superconductivity|superconducting]] [[integrated circuit|integrated circuit]] with up to 128 pair-wise coupled<ref>R. Harris et al., "Compound Josephson-junction coupler for flux qubits with minimal crosstalk," [http://prb.aps.org/abstract/PRB/v80/i5/e052506 Phys. Rev. B 80, 052506 (2009)]; preprint available: [http://arxiv.org/abs/0904.3784 arXiv:0904.3784]</ref> superconducting [[flux qubit|flux qubits]]<ref>R. Harris et al., "Experimental demonstration of a robust and scalable flux qubit," [http://prb.aps.org/abstract/PRB/v81/i13/e134510 Phys. Rev. B 81, 134510 (2010)]; preprint available: [http://arxiv.org/abs/0909.4321 arXiv:0909.4321]</ref><ref>Next Big Future: Robust and Scalable Flux Qubit, [http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/09/robust-and-scalable-flux-qubit.html], September 23, 2009</ref><ref>Next Big Future: Dwave Systems Adiabatic Quantum Computer [http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/10/dwave-systems-adiabatic-quantum.html], October 23, 2009</ref>. The processor is designed to implement a special-purpose [[adiabatic quantum computation|adiabatic quantum optimization algorithm]]<ref>Edward Farhi et al., "A Quantum Adiabatic Evolution Algorithm Applied to Random Instances of an NP-Complete Problem," [http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/292/5516/472 Science 92, 5516, p.472 (2001)]</ref><ref>Next Big Future: Dwave Publishes Experiments Consistents with Quantum Computing and Support Claim of At Least Quantum Annealing, [http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/04/dwave-publishes-experiments-consistents.html], April 09, 2010</ref> as opposed to being operated as a universal [[quantum circuit|gate-model quantum computer]].'''

:: Note that two of the Next Big Future links refer to material that has not (yet) been peer-reviewed, and the blog itself has not been peer-reviewed.  However, since it is unlikely that any of the current sources in the article are peer-reviewed (including the opinion piece in Nature), I'm guessing that you don't have an issue with non-peer-reviewed material.  Also, the reference in the photo is the same as one of the others, but I don't know how to make them a single reference (hopefully you do).  Would you have any objections to the above paragraph and image being added?

:: This still wouldn't address the issues of neutrality, but would at least begin to make the article less out-dated. [[User:Ndickson|Ndickson]] ([[User talk:Ndickson|talk]]) 21:57, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
:::Two big problems, 1 no disclaimers. If the photo isn't free then we cant use it. 2, it should just call it a processor as the "quantumness" of the processor has not been independantly verified. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 07:48, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
:::: I see the picture includes a copyright watermark, therefore I have requested it be deleted. Look into our policies on pictures, I'm afraid they're quite complicated. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 07:51, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
::::: As indicated by the license box on the image's page, the image is released under the GFDL, which overrules the copyright watermark, and it is therefore free.  Because it has been released under GFDL, anyone (such as you or I) is free to create a new work with the copyright watermark cropped out, if there is an issue with it being there.  Also, the "quantumness" of [[SQUID#RF_SQUID|rf-SQUIDs]] has been independently verified by many groups even dating back as far as the 1980's, so I can provide citations to dozens of peer-reviewed publications showing this, if you would like. [[User:Ndickson|Ndickson]] ([[User talk:Ndickson|talk]]) 17:59, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
::::::Then please update the image to a cropped one. You also can't have the text "Photo courtesy of D-Wave Systems Inc" or anything like it appear. You might want to have a look at sending [[WP:OTRS]] (I think) proof that the picture has been released. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span>
:::::::Actually, it looks like Wikipedia won't let me select GFDL anymore, so I'll re-contact their legal representative to see if it can be released under one of the Creative Commons licenses or something like that and crop that.  GFDL has clauses for relicensing, but they don't appear to be entirely clear for this case, so this might as well be done thoroughly.  I'll get back to you when I have more info, and thanks for your recommendations. [[User:Ndickson|Ndickson]] ([[User talk:Ndickson|talk]]) 19:52, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
:::::::The reply was that it's okay to upload a version without the watermark, released under CC Attribution, so I've done that and will get them to email permissions-en@wikimedia.org to verify. [[User:Ndickson|Ndickson]] ([[User talk:Ndickson|talk]]) 00:06, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
:::::::The image permission is now verified: [http://File:DWave_128chip.jpg File:DWave_128chip.jpg].  Did you have any additional objections to the technology description? [[User:Ndickson|Ndickson]] ([[User talk:Ndickson|talk]]) 01:05, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== This article is ridiculously biased against D-Wave and needs extensive cleanup ==
[[User:Ndickson|Ndickson]] did not remove any of D-Wave's criticism (though many of them don't apply), but simply added facts, supported by '''peer-reviewed and published papers'''.  If D-wave critics have a reason to doubt the correctness of any of the papers please share them with the scientific community. Otherwise stop undoing modifications that introduce uptodate and factual information to the wiki page.

[[User:Verbal|Verbal]], do you realise that saying something like "The problem is the lack of independent reliable sources" and at the same time removing references to <u>published papers</u> is a contradiction? You want to avoid anything that disproves your pre-conceived ideas, based on some opinionated blog entries? You are the one who has to defend yourself. Either prove the published papers wrong, or stop keeping this page out-of-date.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/216.13.217.230|216.13.217.230]] ([[User talk:216.13.217.230|talk]]) 19:20, 7 June 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:See [[WP:PRIMARY]]. Please propose changes you would like in a neutral manner. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 19:40, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

::It seems that bashing D-Wave has become an ego thing for some people, but Wikipedia is not a place for that. Let's keep D-Wave's page as factual as possible. Take comments like "I think D-Wave is this" or "I haven't seen any evidence for that" to personal blogs, where such speculations belong.

::Ndickson has laid out the general direction. In more concrete terms I suggest the following modifications for the near future:
::1) Integrating NDickson's changes: (*) adding a picture of the 128-qubit chip to show this is no "vaporware" and mention that Orion has been outdated. (*) Adding the "New Technology" section to inform Wikipedia readers about D-Wave's latest technology, backed by peer-reviewed papers.
::2) Adding a section about the 2009 Google demo. I propose the following text (quite factual):

::== 2009 Google Demo ==
::On Tuesday, December 08, 2009 at the Neural Information Processing Systems (NIPS) conference, a Google research team lead by [[Hartmut Neven]] used D-Wave's processor to train a binary image classifier. The theory behind the classifier is explained in http://arxiv.org/abs/0912.0779, while descriptions of the implementation details appear in http://static.googleusercontent.com/external_content/untrusted_dlcp/www.google.com/en//googleblogs/pdfs/nips_demoreport_120709_research.pdf

::3) Adding a link to D-Wave's list of peer-reviewed, published papers, because honestly, removing published papers from this Wikipedia page and at the same time complaining that D-Wave people don't share information with the scientific community is funny and sad at the same time.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/216.13.217.230|216.13.217.230]] ([[User talk:216.13.217.230|talk]]) 17:52, 8 June 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::: First problem: The google text you propose would require an independent [[WP:RS]] (not google or dwave) to support the text beyond the event happening. There should not be a link to all publications as we don't do that for any other company involved in research. Let's stick to [[WP:RS]] and not primary sources. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 18:03, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
:::: I'm neither for nor against the above text, but it might be worth re-reading [[WP:PRIMARY]] before you dismiss things.  e.g.: "'''Primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.''' Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source can be used only to make descriptive statements that can be verified by any educated person without specialist knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about material found in a primary source."  The above text does not interpret the sources it cites, it states explicitly material in those sources.  Secondary sources are much more likely to contain editorialized opinion than fact, but there are many secondary sources that reported on the demonstration with Google, if you'd prefer.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ndickson|Ndickson]] ([[User talk:Ndickson|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ndickson|contribs]]) 18:14, 8 June 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> [[User:Ndickson|Ndickson]] ([[User talk:Ndickson|talk]]) 18:15, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
::::: That doesn't conflict with what I have said. The second sentence should therefore be removed, leaving the whole thing unsourced. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 18:56, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
:::::: True, it doesn't directly conflict with what you said here, and I fully agree that the sources the anonymous user above listed for the collaboration with Google are not so good (certainly not peer-reviewed).  I also agree that for describing the Google collaboration, there are many secondary sources that could be preferable.  However, I'm not aware of any secondary sources on the technology that could be argued to be more reliable than the peer-reviewed (i.e. "reliably published") primary sources.  There are more blog entries, such as NextBigFuture, which summarize some of the content of papers, if you'd just like to have a third party reference.  e.g. [http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/09/robust-and-scalable-flux-qubit.html]  They'd be slightly easier to digest than the full papers, but only give partial information, which may be sufficient.  I'll continue this in the above section, where tempers appear a bit less heated. [[User:Ndickson|Ndickson]] ([[User talk:Ndickson|talk]]) 20:56, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
::::::: What intrigues me about D-Wave's page at its current form is that most of the criticisms are sourced from blog entries and other non-peer-reviewed sources (basically personal opinions and speculations), while any attempt at adding scientifically verified information is met by resistance.

:::Removing references to Google demo papers is not a problem. The result would be:
:::-----
:::== 2009 Google Demo ==
:::On Tuesday, December 08, 2009 at the Neural Information Processing Systems ([[NIPS]]) conference, a [[Google]] research team lead by [[Hartmut Neven]] used D-Wave's processor to train a binary image classifier.
:::-----
:::As a source, one can use http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/google_dwave_claim_have_created_first_quantum_computing_image_search or http://www.tech-talks.com/google-demos-quantum-computer-at-nips-2009/ or any of the many articles one can find over the Internet about this demo.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/216.13.217.230|216.13.217.230]] ([[User talk:216.13.217.230|talk]]) 21:28, 8 June 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::That would be a good addition I think. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 07:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
:::::I added the section. Thanks.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/216.13.217.230|216.13.217.230]] ([[User talk:216.13.217.230|talk]]) 19:15, 9 June 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


== List of D-Wave's peer-reviewed, published papers ==
Here is a link to D-Wave's list of peer-reviewed, published papers: http://www.dwavesys.com/index.php?page=publication-list
It does include papers published prior to 2005 (invalidating a claim on the Wikipedia page). Any suggestions as to the best way of making this list available on the Wikipedia page?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/216.13.217.230|216.13.217.230]] ([[User talk:216.13.217.230|talk]]) 20:45, 10 June 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Thanks for the addition of the list Verbal. I edited the page to emphasize that they are peer-reviewed, and also removed the statement about pre-2005 publications not being available.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/216.13.217.230|216.13.217.230]] ([[User talk:216.13.217.230|talk]]) 17:20, 11 June 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Here is an article in IEEE Spectrum about it: http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/loser-dwave-does-not-quantum-compute/0

Key quotes:

::"If this were the real thing, we would know about it. D-Wave hasn't demonstrated signatures believed to be essential to quantum computers, such as entanglement, a coupling between qubits." --Christopher Monroe, a quantum-computing researcher at the University of Maryland, in College Park.

"Even the best prototypes can't keep more than 10 qubits in entangled states for long. Because of this I am very skeptical of D-Wave's claims that it has produced a 128-qubit quantum computer, and talk of reaching 10 000 qubits at this point is advertising hype." -- Paul Benioff, physicist who pioneered quantum computing at Argonne National Laboratory, in Illinois,

"D-Wave has made claims that have not been generally regarded as substantiated in the community." -- Anthony Leggett, Nobel laureate in physics, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. [[User:Guymacon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guymacon|talk]]) 07:16, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

:More quotes, this time from Scott Aaronson, Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science at MIT, expert on the limitations of quantum computing.

:"it's notable that, now that D-Wave has happily joined the ruling-out-the-null-hypothesis club, we're down from 128 qubits back to 8.  This paper also makes no claims to demonstrate <em>entanglement</em>, which is almost certainly necessary for any interesting quantum speedup." --  http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=639

:"Any claims by D-Wave that the practical value of quantum annealing has already been demonstrated need to be taken with a huge grain of salt." -- http://blogs.forbes.com/alexknapp/2011/05/24/q-and-a-with-prof-scott-aaronson-on-d-waves-quantum-computer/ [[User:Guymacon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guymacon|talk]]) 18:12, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

::You all might be interested in an [http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110531/full/474018a.html article] in ''Nature'' (12 June 2011, p. 18) titled "First sale for quantum computing".  It also discusses the "mistrust" some folks have about D-Wave. - [[User:J. Johnson|J. Johnson (JJ)]] ([[User talk:J. Johnson|talk]]) 23:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

== Resolution? ==
This is very silly. Arguing about something that can be measured is a waste of time. It appears that some people are just not ready to accept a quantum break-though yet, no matter what. Skepticism is healthy, as long as it's not just an excuse to be lazy.--[[User:SkipMcCormick|SkipMcCormick]] ([[User talk:SkipMcCormick|talk]]) 01:42, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

:: OK, the problem is that "Quantum Computing" in the well-established field that treats of the theory of quantum algorithms refers to a theoretical device that is assumed to be capable of certain things. The pragmatic question is how close you can get to that ideal and even if you don't get particularly close, whether you can still be useful, i.e. still extract some of the speed-up you'd get from the idealized device. This is pretty finicky for all sorts of reasons I won't go into. So there is a gray area of what constitutes "pretty good: especially if we are still in the stage where proof of principle can already get you into Nature, and what is "pretty good" in those papers is not usually portable to worthwhile practical purposes. Anyway, a fair consensus is that there are various devices with a handful of qbits that are pretty good in that generous sense. After all, everybody is pioneering and the Wright brothers did not exactly build a Concorde etc... If it gets into dozens or scores of qbits (or Qbits, people get worked up over the difference but it does not really matter here), there's usually some restrictions on what algorithms the device can do, so we are getting further and further away from the idealized universal device. But if you cry foul at this point you get the reasonable reproach that you should have cried foul from the get go, since even the best 2-qbit devices are really nowhere near the idealised device. So thus far we have the idealized quantum computer, for which, in anticipation of a really good approximation being one day engineered, we have already developed all the algorithms. Then we have the various handful-of-qbits (sometimes more) experimental devices which are really not very good but nonetheless cutting-edge science. And then we have the DWave machine with 100s, 1000s, 10,000s or whatever of qbits. What gives? Well, simply that it is not even remotely an approximation of the idealized device that is the theoretical construct of the QC field. So not a quantum computer in that sense. Is it a quantum computer in any other sense? Well, yes, if only because every physical device that is used as computer is a quantum computer in the some sense! The question is, does its operation "explicitly" exploit quantum phenomena, and the answer is a cautious yes. It is certainly the tool of choice for some types of problems. But remember that there are many examples of problems are quickly "solved" approximately by suitable mechanical contraptions. So the real question is how much you can do with DWave machines, and whether it's cheaper/faster than classical alternatives. Figuring out ways to massage as many different kinds of problems into a form that the machine can work with is one sensible thing, and that task is made lighter by scaling up how many of these flux qbits they fit into the machines. So that's what they've been doing.[[Special:Contributions/137.205.101.77|137.205.101.77]] ([[User talk:137.205.101.77|talk]]) 16:51, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

== D-Wave Two vs PC comparison - fair or not ==

Following the addition of the [http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23519 recent QC vs PC comparison source], I added the following text to the article (This claim is attributed to Catherine McGeoch in the article, although not quoted):

:''However, she admitted that the comparison is "not quite fair, because generic computers will always perform less well than a device dedicated to solving a specific problem"''

Based on a paragraph from the article:

:''The speed tests are also '''not quite fair''', because generic computers '''will always perform less well''' than a device dedicated to solving a specific problem, '''says McGeoch'''. "A next step would be to build a conventional processor optimised for this task, for a fairer comparison," says O'Brien.''

An [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=D-Wave_Systems&diff=prev&oldid=555529570 anonymous editor changed it] to:

:''However, '''it is not unusual for general-purpose algorithms to perform''' less well than a device dedicated to solving a specific problem''

There are multiple problems with this formulation, all of which seem to erode its value:
* The attribution of McGeoch was removed, who is the authority in this case. Positive statements are attributed to McGeoch, and so should the negative, if she said them.
* The admission that the comparison is unfair. As far as I can tell this was a comparison between regular PC CPUs against QC -- which I find unfair, because it's not the best that classical computers have to offer. Comparing QC to GPUs (vector processors) and ASICs would be fairer.
* "is not unusual" is very awkward formulation. Consider "It is not unusual for CPUs to perform less well than a GPU at rendering 3D graphics". While technically true, it suggests that sometimes CPUs may be faster -- it's misleading. The source says "will *always* perform less well"

Note that McGeoch was hired as a consultant by D-Wave, with the goal of coming up with a favorable comparison between quantum and classical computers. It's not a surprise to be that the comparison is unfair, but it's better to state explicitly in the article [[WP:BALANCE|for balance]]. -- [[user:intgr|intgr]]&nbsp;<small>[[user talk:intgr|[talk]]]</small> 17:34, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the reason why the "algorithm" expression was used instead of the "conventional processor" expression is that it has been shown that you can get as good or better performance than D-Wave using a conventional processor with custom software packages designed to solve the problems D-Wave is good at solving. See my edit in the controversy section for the reference. [[Special:Contributions/130.216.63.250|130.216.63.250]] ([[User talk:130.216.63.250|talk]]) 00:26, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

==Criticism section==
The criticism section is pretty flawed.  It implies that after the google/NASA deal, all academic critics have stopped criticizing the company.  This is not true.  In general, the criticism section should be about the specific complaints of critics, and the response by the company  - and a new impressive deal with google+NASA doesn't count as a response.

Another point which is often raised in discussions is that "pro D-Wave" views are based on published peer-reviewed articles, and the criticism is from blog posts and private discussions.  While this is true, it risks leading to a dangerously distorted article.  The peer review of D-Wave's articles doesn't mean that they are accepted as true, or as telling the whole story, but mostly that they are interesting and likely to be true, and to contain new science.  On the other hand, criticizing D-Wave will rarely be publishable because it is hard to say "this company is full of BS" in a way that has new scientific content that a journal will want to publish.  So we should be careful not to confuse publication with credibility here.  Nevertheless, it is interesting that nevertheless people have found ways to make their D-Wave criticism into scientifically interesting articles; see e.g. arXiv:0705.1115. [[User:Aram.harrow|Aram.harrow]] ([[User talk:Aram.harrow|talk]]) 01:14, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

:At least ''some'' of the "peer-reviewed articles" are, in fact press releases, or have no content which is falsifiable.  Still, we do have a problem with blogs and unpublished papers (arXiv are not published); namely what is the field we are looking for an "expert" in, per [[WP:SPS]].  "Quantum computing" (we don't know who the experts are), "experimental physics" (probably, IMO, not the right field, and we don't know who the expert are), "computational complexity" (the right field for some claims, but not others), or ???.  If D-Wave employees are the only (otherwise) credible "experts", we could not use their statements, either.  — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]]  [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 01:11, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

:: Aram, the article you mention is from 2007 which is ages and ages before any D-Wave machines were released to the public, it has only 22 citations on Google Scholar making it one of Bravyi's least cited articles of all time, and the title is "Classical approximation schemes for the ground state
energy of quantum and classical Ising spin Hamiltonians on planar graphs" which means we do not need to read the rest of the paper to know that this "criticism of D-Wave" is not strong at all. It was known since 1965 that Jack Edmonds' "blossom algorithm" can solve planar graph Ising models in polynomial time... but D-Wave's connectivity graph is non-planar. If the problem is planar: use a classical computer to optimize it. If the problem is non-planar, annealing on D-Wave might be faster (and probably WILL be more energy efficient) than solving the problem on a classical computer. Finally, I think any "criticism" of D-Wave right now is a bad idea because humans as a species still don't have enough knowledge to determine whether or not the claims of those critics will turn out to be relevant. You raise an interesting point about blog posts vs peer-reviewed articles, but I do think peer reviewed articles are in general much more valuable than blog posts and criticisms should be publishable in the journals just like you say that pro-DWave papers can be (and still be false or irrelevant, etc.). The criticisms of Umesh Vazirani, Scott Aaronson and Matthias Troyer in the article are all terribly wrong in my opinion. Umesh: "That speed up unfortunately does not hold in the setting at hand" ... why not? I see no reason why we can't get square root speed-up for a Grover-like search. Umesh: "and therefore D-Wave's "quantum computer" even if it turns out to be a true quantum computer, and even if it can be scaled to thousands of qubits, would likely not be more powerful than a cell phone" well now it has been scaled to thousands of qubits and it beat calculations on Google supercomputers that Hartmut Neven said in his talk at the APS conference in 2016 "spent millions of dollars of computer time to do" so Umesh's criticism about the "cell phone" has already been proven to be misleading. Scott: "blowing results out of proportion on press releases that claim speedups of three orders of magnitude, in light of a paper[40] by scientists from ETH Zurich reporting a 128-qubit D-Wave computer being outperformed by a factor of 15 using regular digital computers and applying classical metaheuristics (particularly simulated annealing) to the problem that D-Wave's computer was specifically designed to solve" show me one classical computation that can find the ground state of the Ising models in Katzgraber's paper faster than D-Wave's machine did. Show me just one. Matthias: "Matthias Troyer at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, said that they found "no quantum speedup" across the entire range of their tests" ... funny, his 2014 Science paper shows quite clearly a figure with the label "DW2 Faster" and another label "SA faster" meaning simulated annealing is faster.... and there were points labeled in the "DW2 Faster" region that were SEVERAL ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE away from the cross-over line... furthermore Katzgraber's and Denchev's papers BOTH confirm that Troyer's simulated annealing is not only orders of magnitude slower than D-Wave, but also scales with a worse slope, on a log graph. [[User:Dr. Universe|Dr. Universe]] ([[User talk:Dr. Universe|talk]]) 00:02, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

==Why no mention of quantum algorithms?==
The article says nothing at all about quantum algorithms.  Yet a quantum computer can only run asymptotically faster than a classical computer by using a quantum algorithm such as Shor's factoring method, Grover's search method, etc.  D-Wave claims that their quantum computer efficiently solves an NP-hard problem, namely [[quadratic unconstrained binary optimization]] or QUBO.  However there does not currently exist any known quantum algorithm for solving NP-hard problems usefully faster than existing classical algorithms.  Furthermore if any efficient quantum algorithm existed for NP-hard problems its implications for quantum computers would be vastly more profound than Shor's algorithm.  Yet the article does not say anything about the quantum algorithm D-Wave is using.  Something is very wrong here.  [[User:Vaughan Pratt|Vaughan Pratt]] ([[User talk:Vaughan Pratt|talk]]) 19:02, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

== Lede ==

The lede does not reflect the content of the article, since it summarizes the press-releases of the company and presents them as facts. The article itself is more balanced.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 21:59, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
:Six years later, it's presumably worse. [[Special:Contributions/73.222.1.26|73.222.1.26]] ([[User talk:73.222.1.26|talk]]) 22:14, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

== Merge 2 ==

I propose that [[D-Wave Two]] be merged into this article.  What isn't a press release or a quote from a press release is not much longer than what is already here.  (I haven't researched whether "Two" was split from this article.  It doesn't really matter, as they should be together.)  — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]]  [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 00:52, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

:Agree. The significance or notability of the company and the systems it builds does not seem to extend to the individual models of that system. ~ [[User:J. Johnson|J.&nbsp;Johnson (JJ)]] ([[User_talk:J. Johnson#top|talk]]) 20:58, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

*'''Merge''' notability for company entangled with products. For now, per [[WP:SPINOFF]]. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Widefox|Widefox]]</span>; [[User talk:Widefox|talk]]</span> 18:46, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

:: I agree with the merge. I have just gone through and made some clean-up edits to the D-Wave Two article. How do we go about actually merging it in? It has been flagged for a long time --[[User:Strongguy1|Strongguy1]] ([[User talk:Strongguy1|talk]]) 21:14, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

::: If there is no dissent soon, I will be moving to perform this merge [[User:Strongguy1|Strongguy1]] ([[User talk:Strongguy1|talk]]) 15:26, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

:::: I'm removing this as a stale merge. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Widefox|Widefox]]</span>; [[User talk:Widefox|talk]]</span> 21:27, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

== I am deleting a lot of the criticism section if no one objects to it with sound arguments within 2 months ==

The criticism section is quite flawed and the quote by Umesh Vazirani is very out of date and flawed. It’s about time it gets removed. The Talk page has a criticism section, but it’s all discussion and no talk about change. [[User:VPL Strathcona|VPL Strathcona]] ([[User talk:VPL Strathcona|talk]]) 20:49, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

:Has the question of speedup over classical computation been resolved? There seems to be a common thread about the noise levels that I would be hesitant to remove, so I'm interested in what you think are the best post-2015 sources on the topic. [[User:EllenCT|EllenCT]] ([[User talk:EllenCT|talk]]) 21:16, 31 March 2019 (UTC) {{Re|VPL Strathcona}} ? [[User:EllenCT|EllenCT]] ([[User talk:EllenCT|talk]]) 21:12, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

:: {{Re|EllenCT}}, everything in the section is pre-2015. This 2016 paper by Google is crystal clear: See Fig. 4 https://arxiv.org/pdf/1512.02206.pdf. Clearly the time it takes D-Wave to solve the problem is 10^7 times faster than the classical algorithms ("simulated" annealing, and QMC). [[User:VPL Strathcona|VPL Strathcona]] ([[User talk:VPL Strathcona|talk]]) 01:16, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

:::{{Re|VPL Strathcona}} Great. Can you help me find literature reviews other than [https://arxiv.org/pdf/1610.02208.pdf] and [https://arxiv.org/pdf/1604.01746.pdf]? I'd also like your comments on [https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2058-9565/aac8b2/meta], in particular, "To date [July 2018] classical heuristics have consistently outperformed quantum annealing based approaches." And [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405428318300571] which states, "A huge obstacle we are facing is that operating a single fault-tolerant qubit can require many thousands of physical qubits. In a recent study, it was estimated that quantum computing could achieve a significant speedup (in absolute time), but this advantage vanished when the classical processing required to implement error-correction schemes was taken into account [https://arxiv.org/pdf/1810.05582.pdf [37]]." [[User:EllenCT|EllenCT]] ([[User talk:EllenCT|talk]]) 21:38, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

::::{{Re|EllenCT}} Unfortunately I don't know what reviews to give you. The two reviews you just gave me are quite different from each other. What type of review are you looking for? Those two are cut from a completely different cloth! The paper [https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2058-9565/aac8b2/meta] takes forever to load and then it says "service unavailable", can you give me an arXiv link or just the title and authors of the paper? As for the last paper, they are talking about circuit based quantum computation, which has nothing to do with D-Wave. It is true that the number of physical quits is often something like 15,000 times the number of logical qubits. This is far from the case for D-Wave annealers. The closest thing to "quantum error correction" for D-Wave annealers is "quantum annealing correction" where there's only 4 physical qubits per logical qubit, however that is a topic is not really explored in much detail yet.

:::::{{Re|VPL Strathcona}} That paper is on arxiv as [https://arxiv.org/abs/1711.01368].  A more recent demonstration of limited quantum speedup is here [https://arxiv.org/abs/1705.07452] and was published in Physical Review X.  There were also D-Wave papers in Science and Nature last year, using D-Wave processors as programmable simulators of quantum systems [https://science.sciencemag.org/content/361/6398/162] and [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0410-x].  Although these papers are not directly concerned with the speed of simulation, they constitute very clear evidence of quantum effects.  Another note: The discussion of Pegasus not being open to the public is inaccurate; an open-source generator was already online as of April 2018 [https://github.com/dwavesystems/dwave_networkx/pull/45].  I work for D-Wave so I'm very reluctant to edit the main page myself. [[User:Adking80|Adking80]] ([[User talk:Adking80|talk]]) 12:23, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

::::::{{Re|Adking80}} Thanks for sharing the arXiv link. Now I know which paper EllenCT was talking about. Isn't that Katzgraber paper extremely deceptive? They are pretending that QUBO can be solved in polynomial time on a classical computer, but to do that they needed to use the blossom algorithm, which requires the graph to be planar. D-Wave graphs are not planar, so Katzgraber represented entire groups of 8 qubits as a single qubit. Isn't that cheating? So the 2048 non-planar qubits of D-Wave becomes 256 planar qubits in Katzgraber's simulation, isn't that extremely unfair and dishonest? It seems that to properly criticize D-Wave, you need to solve a problem on a non-planar graph, faster than the 2000Q, and as far as I know, this has never been done in any of the papers ..... they always say in their abstract that their classical algorithms are so great and everything, but then the plots always show D-Wave finding the solution faster. As for the "pegasus" I'm not sure ... I don't recall writing about Pegasus at all, but then looking at my edit history it looks like I did edit it (or someone else from the Vancouver Public Library, Strathcona branch, edited it if the account was signed in). You have provided a link to a discussion on GitHub from April 2018. Do you have a link to the code? [[User:VPL Strathcona|VPL Strathcona]] ([[User talk:VPL Strathcona|talk]]) 20:04, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

:::::::{{Re|VPL Strathcona}} The paper is not deceptive because it is in response to a particular D-Wave paper on a set of instances that can be reduced to planar problems.  The particular Pegasus generator code is found here [https://github.com/dwavesystems/dwave_networkx/blob/master/dwave_networkx/generators/pegasus.py]. [[User:Adking80|Adking80]] ([[User talk:Adking80|talk]]) 21:40, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

::::::::{{Re|Adking80}} Thank you so much. I now concede that the pegasus generator was on GitHub since 2018. I'm not sure when it was made open-source (since it seems many D-Wave repositories are private, and one of the commits in that repository midway through the commit history, says "added explanation so that we can pre-release it to customers"). I'm sure there's a lot of people that are not D-Wave customers, but even assuming this repository was made public right at the start, how many people knew about it? It looks like Mark Fingerhuth did know about it, based on his comment here: https://quantumcomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/2536/what-is-d-waves-pegasus-architecture/5134#5134. But even a few months ago Neil de Beaudrap was constantly asking for a mathematical description of the Pegasus, in his comments there. I have looked deeper into the git repo you posted, and while I do see some formulas for the Pegasus edges added in a commit by user "Boothby", it's very hard for me to understand what is going on, with so little description of what the nodes are and what the indices mean. The phrases "orthogonal major offset" and "orthogonal minor offset" mean nothing to me. In any case, the paper by Dattani, Chancellor and Szalay uses a completely different 6-index scheme, compared to the 4-index scheme explained in Boothby's commit. The formulas are completely different and I see no correspondence between Boothby's formulas and theirs (probably mostly because the node definitions and meanings of the indices are completely different). In any case, the paper on arXiv explains each node and each edge in a way that I can understand, whereas the generator you sent to me can probably make Pegasus graphs, but the comments do not give me enough information that I would be confident that I could reproduce Pegasus on my own (indeed it looks like the authors did not use D-Wave's scheme for describing the edges). I actually searched online earlier (like Neil de Beaudrap I guess) to see if there was some explanation of Pegasus the way I understand Chimera so easily, but I couldn't find anything at the time. To conclude this paragraph, what do you recommend we add/change to the Wiki article? I believe that the GitHub repository is not able to replace the value of the arXiv paper, which seems to be a better "source" for describing Pegasus. About the Katzgraber paper, thank you for pointing out the context that this was in response to a D-Wave paper about planar graphs. I guess the point is that for planar graphs you should use the polynomially scaling blossom algorithm, and for non-planar graphs you should use D-Wave (if it embeds well enough). So I thank everyone here for all the references, but I see no reason why there should be so much outdated "controversy" in the controversy section of the Wiki article. The Troyer papers were completely wrong, the Katzgraber paper is about planar graphs, and the Vazirani quote was from 2007 (before even the D-Wave One) and it does not seem "noteworthy" enough to be on Wikipedia. Furthermore, Vazirani's paper was quite deceiving. He '''proved''' in 2001 that AQC with only Z's, and standard QC with gates, have exactly the same speed-up for a Grover search. So then what is his problem with D-Wave? Why is he saying that the company is founded on a "misunderstanding" of his paper? Seems to me that he himself proved that AQC with only Z's can be as powerful as a universal QC for Grover search, and to me all that matters is that it's useful for at least one algorithm .... I mean give me a break .... how far have "universal" QCs come in the 34 years since David Deutsch's 1985 paper? Call me when there's a "controversy" section for Google's 72-qubit QC presented at the APS conference but never shown to anybody, and for IBM's 16-qubit public access QC which is vastly outperformed by classical computers, not because of lack of qubits but because of too much noise. [[User:VPL Strathcona|VPL Strathcona]] ([[User talk:VPL Strathcona|talk]]) 03:12, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

:::::::::{{Re|VPL Strathcona}} I agree D-Wave is held to a higher standard than other companies and that a lot of the controversy section is completely outdated, particularly the quote from Vazirani.  The landscape has changed a lot in the past 12 years.  Much of the criticism comes from people who have an interest in other quantum computing efforts, of which there are now many.  And much of it comes from academics who don't want anybody saying that a quantum annealing processor is a quantum computer.  This is in spite of the underlying equivalence between circuit model and annealing quantum computers, cf. [https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.109.050501] and [https://epubs.siam.org/doi/10.1137/080734479].  A critic might say that D-Wave's coherence times are too short and temperature is too high.  However, decoherence (which affects circuit model and annealing in different ways anyway) and temperature are issues for all physical QC implementations, including IBM, Google, Rigetti, etc.  Some manifestations such as Rydberg atoms are less prone to e.g. temperature, but they have other implementation challenges, often programmability.  Another criticism is lack of non-stoquastic terms in the D-Wave Hamiltonian, but D-Wave recently demonstrated non-stoquastic coupling [https://arxiv.org/abs/1903.06139] as well.  So, in my opinion the page needs a significant overhaul, but it should be done by people without the conflict of interest that I have. [[User:Adking80|Adking80]] ([[User talk:Adking80|talk]]) 15:43, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

::::::::::{{Re|Adking80}}. D-wave machines are programmable, therefore they are computers. Any problem can be compiled onto a D-Wave machine with enough qubits, just not always efficiently. We could even do Shor's algorithm on D-Wave machines, but not efficiently (the gadgets for converting universal problems onto Ising problems are not efficient ... but they still exist, so you can still do any problem you want on the D-Wave machine, the embedding might just be so bad that it would be worse than doing it on a classical computer). It's a "quantum computer" just not efficient for every possible problem. You talk about decoherence and temperature, but we don't really need very long coherence for quantum annealing compared to a deep circuit. As for temperature, I don't know of any company who's hardware has better quality qubits than D-Wave. Thanks for the paper on non-stoquastic terms in D-Wave Hamiltonian, I didn't know about this. Seems it's not a lot of qubits though, and MIT Lincoln Labs and Norhtrup Grumman and Google have been trying to do non-stoquastic terms with not much success. I'm not sure if it's practical to program for non-stoquastic machines either (when we leave the Ising model, I lose my intuition for how to turns a real-world problem into a minimization problem). You talk about equivalence between AQC and circuit model, but those proofs only work at 0-temperature and for closed systems not even interacting with the vacuum modes (so the proof would not even work for qubits in a real vacuum that has QED vacuum modes). But luckily we don't have to worry about any of that if we don't claim D-Wave machines can do universal QC. The main point is that they can solve some optimization problems faster than any classical algorithm on a classical computer, including Katzgraber's. There's not enough qubits to solve real-world problems, but they're getting there. A major criticism now would be: how does D-Wave's machines compare to Fujitsu or Hitachi annealers? Maybe Fujitsu can find the ground state just as fast as D-Wave, meaning there's not really any "quantum advantage" even though there's no doubt that there's quantum entanglement, quantum tunnelling, quantum coherence, etc... (how can there not be quantum effects? Impossible. .... But how relevant are the quantum effects ... it remains to be seen what the classical annealers can do). The classical annealers have all-to-all coupling? That seems like an advantage. As for conflict-of-interest, well I don't work for any company or any university ... I'm just an enthusiast. I just didn't want to remove the controversy section uni-laterally. In the title of this Talk section, I said I'll give people 2 months to provide some reason why anything from the controversy section should stay. I don't see anything "notable" enough to stay there. For historical purposes it might be neat to have information about how controversial D-Wave was in the early days, but are there any good BALANCED sources to cite there? Everything seems to be emotionally charged and unbalanced. For example Katzgraber keeps saying he's crushing D-Wave runtimes with classical computers, but then why in his figures the D-Wave curve is below the classical-algorithm curves when the y-axis is time-to-solution? Has Scott Aaronson even said one accurate thing about D-Wave controversy? Sure Vazirani made that quote, but is it really notable enough to be in an encyclopedia? Isn't keeping that quote there going to make people lose respect for him? Doesn't he probably want it to be taken down for the sake of his reputation? I will wait until end of May to see if anyone comes up with a really strong argument for why anything in the controversy section should really be there. Finally: what do you want me to do about the Pegasus? I don't think the arXiv paper can be "replaced" by some comments in a code on GitHub, which lacked the amount of detail given in the paper. How about something like: "D-Wave began development of a GitHub repository in 2018 which included a Pegasus generator and it should be possible to deduce a description of the graph by looking at the comments in the code [1] but later in 2019 a group of academics de-coded it themselves and made their findings available to the public [2]" where [1] is the GitHub repository, and [2] is the arXiv paper. I just don't know if "GitHub repository" is considered an appropriate "source" on Wikipedia because I'm somewhat new here. [[User:VPL Strathcona|VPL Strathcona]] ([[User talk:VPL Strathcona|talk]]) 03:33, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

:::::::::::{{Re|VPL Strathcona}} Here is a whitepaper on the D-Wave website describing Pegasus: [https://www.dwavesys.com/sites/default/files/14-1026A-C_Next-Generation-Topology-of-DW-Quantum-Processors.pdf] found at [https://www.dwavesys.com/resources/publications?type=white].  My personal opinion about the criticism section is that it is out of date, but was important at the time.  The fact that it is difficult to find prominent scientists giving such pointed criticism is proof enough of that.  In any case, maybe someone else will provide a good reason to keep a lot of this criticism section.  Maybe not. [[User:Adking80|Adking80]] ([[User talk:Adking80|talk]]) 15:26, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

::::::::::::{{Re|Adking80}} Thank you for the white paper! Very interesting! I note it's form February 2019, so a bit newer than the references in the current Wiki article, but that doesn't mean we can't add it to the Wiki page. Figure 2 in the whitepaper actually looks a lot more like Figure 12b of the Dattani-Chancellor paper than the pictures they used to show in the talks (for which a PDF of Mark Johnson's is online and pictures from Trevor Lanting's are online) and GitHub program. Okay so there is the Pegasus section and the Criticism section: I get the sense that you're a bit vague about what you want me to do, or in any sense, you're not explicitly saying what you would like. I understand this is because you say you have a conflict of interest, which is very admirable of you (some company employees would just try to boost their company's reputation). But I do not have a conflict of interest since I am not working for any tech company or university, I am just an enthusiast. So I will make the changes. I am indeed seeking the opinions of other people here though (and I guess you're the only one engaging in the discussion, so your opinions are 100% welcome whether or not you have a "conflict-of-interest"), because I don't want to uni-laterally delete the criticism section (or change the Pegasus section which I didn't even write in the first place). My opinion is that the criticism section is unfairly biased *against* D-Wave, and has inaccuracies (some of them due to being "out of date" but some of them plain wrong) which can hurt the company's reputation, and hurt the entire field of adiabatic quantum computing or quantum annealing in general. I get the sense from people that adiabatic quantum computing "isn't real quantum computing" even though the papers you mentioned seem to indicate that it is quantum, and common sense tells me that it is computing. I personally think the criticism section should just be removed entirely, and someone else can start a new one if they really think it's necessary to criticize D-Wave. But you say that "it was important at the time" and that "maybe someone will provide a good reason to keep a lot of this criticism section", which makes me unsure of what you want me to do. Do you want to keep some parts? I'm thinking to remove the whole thing, but if there's parts you want to keep I can do that. I think you're too worried about having a "conflict-of-interest", and I'm too worried about making uni-lateral decisions. I guess it would be fair for me to delete the criticism section if no one objects though (I will still wait until the months are over, even though it feels like 2 months have already past, I want to give everyone a long enough time to object to what I'm considering). Do you object to what I'm doing? (i.e. removing the criticism section, and modifying the Pegasus section)?

:::::::::::::{{Re|VPL Strathcona}} I think that the deletion of the Controversy section is unwarranted - I would recommend a rework of the section to remove outdated criticisms but to summarize the still-relevant, previously existing criticisms and accompany them with paragraphs explaining new progress they have made to address these problems. I personally think in particular that the Nature 2011 and Science 2014 paragraphs are worth keeping, as well as a reworked version of the paragraph of criticisms from Scott Aaronson, given that he is perhaps the most outspoken, and well-known critic of their work in the QIS field. Perhaps these could all be combined and shortened. The claim that a Wikipedia section of an article might "hurt the company's reputation, and hurt the entire field of adiabatic quantum computing or quantum annealing in general" as you state in the previous reply, seems rather like hyperbole to me, and is in any case not the concern of editors aiming to be objective only. Nonetheless, your concerns about bias in the previous version seem to me to be entirely warranted. As for supporting studies, keeping the PRX 2014 paragraph and adding new paragraphs about their work to implement nonstoquastic Hamiltonians in [https://arxiv.org/abs/1903.06139] and the PRX 2016 paper [https://journals.aps.org/prx/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevX.6.031015] would balance it out (again, perhaps shortening and combining these paragraphs). Whether or not it seems unfair that D-Wave faces a lot of criticism in contrast to others as noted in a previous reply, it is certainly a significant component of the public conversation about their work, largely due to serious concerns from experts in the field voiced repeatedly over several years. As for the comment at the top of the thread which claims that all criticism seems to be pre-2015, there is certainly a wealth of criticism levied in recent years such as those mentioned elsewhere in this thread and [https://arxiv.org/abs/1806.06081],[https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2058-9565/aab6ba/meta],[https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2058-9565/aa7877/meta],[https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.119.110502] to name a few, which could be added if the timeliness of the content is a concern. The disagreement of one editor with the content of some critical articles does not mean that the criticism ceases to exist and that the criticisms then aren't notable enough to warrant a section on the Wikipedia page. The topic is still a rather heated, popular, and contentious one among those working in QIS (indeed, as shown by this Talk page alone) and I would advocate re-balancing the controversy section and putting it back up, rather than outright deletion.  A restructuring of the section may also be nice, since the previous version bounces back and forth between criticisms and support. I think having the controversy section organized with two subsections of Criticism and Support or something of the like may be more clear to readers. If there are no serious objections, I think the section should be reinstated and a rework should be conducted as soon as possible thereafter. [[User:Tyttcfm|Tyttcfm]] ([[User talk:Tyttcfm|talk]]) {{time}}

::::::::::::::{{Re|Tyttcfm}}. Thank you so much for writing to me rather than just quickly reverting the edit! Honestly I did originally have the intention of doing a complete re-write of the criticism section or making it much more compact while still having all the original (now historical) criticism such as the 2014 Science paper and all. However one conclusion I made for sure was that the section should be taken down, as no one in 9 weeks gave any reason to keep anything up. I disagree that the Science 2014 paper should be mentioned at all unless we are to have a "support" section and put it there. I very much like your idea of having a "support" section if there is a criticism section. The Science 2014 paper showed that the D-Wave machine beat Troyer's groups best classical-computer algorithm at the time, by several orders of magnitude, for many problem instances. His laptop also beat D-Wave for many instances, but that should NOT be considered criticism at all! I've been studying quantum computing in multiple decades and I can tell you first hand that it was a very "academic" and "theoretical" subject for so long, and some colleagues were saying it will be 70 years by the time we actually have hardware. The fact that in 2014 there was a device of any sort, that was BEATING classical computers by orders of magnitude, for ANY problem, was absolutely amazing to me. It means that for THOSE specific problem instances, I would certainly want to use the quantum annealer, and for the other instances, go ahead and use Troyer's laptop.... but do not "criticize" D-Wave at all for being beaten by a laptop on some very specific instances of problems, when D-Wave is beating the laptop by orders of magnitude on other specific instances of problems!  You wrote "largely due to serious concerns from experts in the field voiced repeatedly over several years"  but Scott Aarsonson is NOT an expert at all!!! He knows almost nothing about AQC or quantum annealing!! He is a "theoretical computer scientist" specializing in computational complexity theory and computational complexity classes for quantum algorithms. AQC is not his field. Look at the speaker lists for the annual AQC conference, the repeated speakers are Nick Chancellor (who never criticized D-Wave), Paul Warbourton (who never criticized D-Wave, Mohammad Amin (who works for D-Wave), Andrew King (who works for D-Wave), Daniel Lidar (who convinced his university USC to spend $10 million on a D-Wave, and published a Proof that AQC = Standard QC), Nike Dattani (who never criticized D-Wave), Helmut Katzgraber (who has shown repeatedly that D-Wave crushes his state-of-the-art classical algorithms in terms of runtimes), Elisabeth Crosson (who never criticized D-Wave). Now I'm looking at the 4 links you sent me. First, I never want to see that Katzgraber paper about "planar" graphs ever again. The D-Wave 2000Q has 2048 qubits, and he treated every 8 qubits as 1 logical qubit, so that D-Wave would only have 256 qubits instead of 2048, and these 256 qubit would be in a PLANAR graph. For a planar graph you can use the "blossom algorithm" which is polynomially scaling, and this was known since the 1960s when Jack Blossom invented it. D-Wave's graphs are NON-PLANAR. That's why if you use all 2048 qubits and don't treat each non-planar subset as just ONE spin, you CANNOT use the Blossom algorithm anymore. Therefore nothing Katzgraber did in that paper is new since 1960s, and it is an extremely unfair comparison to D-Wave. There is no sense in confusing readers by putting those misleading papers in a Wiki article! Unfortunately Katzgraber and Troyer are authors on two of the other 4 papers you gave me, and Troyer is the one bragging about a laptop beating D-Wave when that same laptop was orders of magnitude slower for several problems in the exact same paper. So I unfortunately do not think I should spend anymore time reading their papers unless someone says something specific that I should look into (such as the specific things I wrote for others here: planar graphs, D-Wave beating laptop for several instances of the problem, etc.). Thank you for the paper by Tameem Alabsh. His "review" on AQC was extremely biased... it talked about tonnes of AQC algorithms and had a whole section on AQC algorithms for which there's not yet any proof that it's faster than classical computers, and yet, why is it that there's not one single reference to one of the most famous and most frequently published AQC algorithms: the one for factoring integers? Anyway, while I cannot trust papers by Albash to be objective (just like I can't trust Katzgraber and Troyer), I see from the abstract that he is saying that the temperature has to be lowered as the number of qubits goes up. This I think everyone already knew, but perhaps it is a fair criticism. I can read more into it when I have time. However is it Wikipedia worthy? Are we going to list in an encylopedia, every single paper that says something like, in order for D-Wave to work, we need low temperatures? The paper has only 26 citations on google scholar. It is not in the media or newspapers or covered by journalists, which are often the requirements for things to be Wiki worthy. Where is the citation to the paper that AQC = Standard QC ? There's one by Aharanov et al., and also by Lidar & Menzel or something like that. Where's the papers that show that D-Wave factored numbers larger than anything Shor's algorithm ever did? I agree that there's no proof yet that those factoring algorithms will be scalable, but should we include those papers in a wiki article about D-Wave? I currently would say no. It's not encyclopedia worthy (and in fact, those article HAVE indeed been covered by the media in dozens and dozens of places, so in some sense I would push to include those types of articles to be in the D-Wave article if Albash's "quantum annealing requires very low temperatures" should be  in it!). So I do like your idea of having  "criticism" and a "support" section, but I don't know how those should look. What articles should we cite and not cite? How should we construct the paragraphs? and the overall structure? I believe Wiki is not a "forum" so it's not a place to dump everyone's opinions about a company's article. Right now I think it's much better to have "no criticism section at all" rather than having what we used to have. What we used to have, is something I'm glad was there originally, but I think now is the time we can move on from that era. FINALLY, maybe we can point out these things like Albash's result that we need low temperatures to do quantum annealing, but does it have to be on the Wiki page for "D-Wave Systems" the company? perhaps we could have a Wiki article called "Qauntum Annealers" or "D-Wave Quantum Annealers" or even "Criticism of D-Wave" ... is it criticism of D-Wave the company? Or of (some of) their products? I don't see why we need to have Albash's paper cited anywhere in the D-Wave COMPANY wiki page. I am open to discussion from everyone though! [[User:VPL Strathcona|VPL Strathcona]] ([[User talk:VPL Strathcona|talk]]) 20:26, 7 June 2019 (UTC)


== Deleting "notable alumni and collaborators" ==

This list still/again consists of people already mentioned, people who don't rate as among the most notable collaborators, and people who have never worked with D-Wave.  As such I think it is best removed. [[User:Adking80|Adking80]] ([[User talk:Adking80|talk]]) 20:38, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

== Co-founders? ==

Ladizinsky goes around calling himself a co-founder but the article doesn't reflect this. Is he more of a "founder" in name because they gave him extra stock, or what? Where does this information come from and what is his own claim based on? [[Special:Contributions/12.231.67.211|12.231.67.211]] ([[User talk:12.231.67.211|talk]]) 00:32, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

:It is a bit confusing. The article currently states, ''"D-Wave was founded by Haig Farris (former chair of board), Geordie Rose (former CEO/CTO), Bob Wiens (former CFO), and Alexandre Zagoskin (former VP Research and Chief Scientist)."'' However, the [https://www.dwavesys.com/our-company/leadership D-Wave Systems website] describes Eric Ladizinsky as "Co-Founder and Chief Scientist", and it also describes Geordie Rose as "The Founder" and Haig Farris as "co-founder". I suggest that the article be updated to read, ''"D-Wave Systems was founded by Geordie Rose (former CEO/CTO), along with Haig Farris (former chair of board), Eric Ladizinsky (current Chief Scientist), Bob Wiens (former CFO) and Alexandre Zagoskin (former VP Research and Chief Scientist)."'' <b style="font:1.3em/1em Trebuchet MS;letter-spacing:-0.07em">[[User:nagualdesign|<b style="color:#000">nagual</b>]][[User talk:nagualdesign|<b style="color:#ABAB9D">design</b>]]</b> 01:23, 26 February 2021 (UTC)