View source for Talk:Elagabalus

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== Please read this before requesting a change regarding gender identity ==
<!-- START PIN -->{{Pin message|}}<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 18:18, 26 March 2033 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1995473924}}<!-- END PIN -->
'''The gender identity of Elagabalus is a contentious topic''' and has been raised here before. The most radical claim — that Elagabalus claimed to be a woman and wanted confirming surgery — came from a historian who was also a public official, and answered to the same people who condemned Elagabalus's memory. This article follows the prevailing approach of scholarship by regarding those claims skeptically and thus uses masculine pronouns.

Before requesting a change related to this topic, please '''review the talk page archives'''. These are available through the header at the top of this page, which is visible only on large-screen devices. [[Special:Contributions/67.180.143.89|67.180.143.89]] ([[User talk:67.180.143.89|talk]]) 18:18, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

== Category:LGBTQ Roman emperors ==

I was doing research into LGBTQ people with noble and royal titles, and I discovered the [[:Category:LGBTQ Roman emperors]]. I'm aware that the gender identity and sexuality of Elagabalus has been widely debated, and so I was wondering if it would be appropriate to include Elagabalus in this catagory alongside [[Hadrian]] and [[Nero]]. [[User:Rylee Amelia|Rylee Amelia]] ([[User talk:Rylee Amelia|talk]]) 04:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

:No, and I've removed the category from Hadrian as it doesn't appear to be discussed at all in the article. Nero should probably be removed too looking at the sourcing for the claim, but I will wait for someone with expertise on Roman historiography to discuss it. [[User:Traumnovelle|Traumnovelle]] ([[User talk:Traumnovelle|talk]]) 06:16, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
:Sorry, let me address the actual claim. All mentions of Elagabalus being sexually depraved derive from authors who have good reason to critique and ridicule him. Historians mostly disagree with the idea of these claims having merit to them and so we shouldn't apply a category here, as the category cannot be subjected to the nuance we can give in the text. This idea has been discussed before and I would recommend you read the archives to see prior discussion. [[User:Traumnovelle|Traumnovelle]] ([[User talk:Traumnovelle|talk]]) 06:18, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
::I looked through the archives, and I may be mistaken, but all of the discussions I saw pertained to Elagabalus' potential gender identity and things such as pronouns and gendered terms. I didn't see discussions surrounding categories. I felt that it may be important to include some LGBTQ categories because Elagabalus has been seen through a queer interpretation in some sources. Other historical figures with disputed identities such as [[Public Universal Friend]] are listed in LGBTQ categories. I understand why Elagabalus is interpreted as a man in the context of this article, but I feel that LGBTQ categories could assist some people who are looking into LGBTQ interpretations of historical figures, regardless of the consensus that may have been reached regarding Elagabalus' identity. I'm assuming the current state of the article is well intentioned, and this proposal is not meant to upset that. I often look through categories as a basis for research on certain topics, so I know there are some people that may benefit from this addition. [[User:Rylee Amelia|Rylee Amelia]] ([[User talk:Rylee Amelia|talk]]) 06:31, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
:::[[WP:CATPOV]] and [[WP:CATLGBT]] would apply here. I am unfamiliar with the Public Universal Friend and what the scholarly consensus in regards.
:::>but I feel that LGBTQ categories could assist some people who are looking into LGBTQ interpretations of historical figures
:::We have a category on this page that does just that, titled 'Historical figures with ambiguous or disputed gender identity'. If you're looking for one for sexuality 'Category:Historical figures with ambiguous or disputed sexuality' does not exist but I would recommend asking at Wikiproject LGBT Studies before creating it in case there is an existing category named differently. [[User:Traumnovelle|Traumnovelle]] ([[User talk:Traumnovelle|talk]]) 06:49, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
::::Ok, I will do that. I think having one or more categories related to disputed historical identities would help a lot of people that are interested in these types of interpretations. Thank you! [[User:Rylee Amelia|Rylee Amelia]] ([[User talk:Rylee Amelia|talk]]) 07:04, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::''Category:Historical figures with ambiguous or disputed sexuality'' seems like a good idea. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 08:18, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
::::::I just created the [[:Category:Historical figures with ambiguous or disputed sexuality]]. Feel free to expand it if you'd like! [[User:Rylee Amelia|Rylee Amelia]] ([[User talk:Rylee Amelia|talk]]) 09:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Seems like a total OR and fringe magnet [[User:Golikom|Golikom]] ([[User talk:Golikom|talk]]) 22:49, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
::::::::It's not OR if the article directly mentions it and has multiple sources to create context surrounding these theories. I feel you may be conflating your own personal beliefs on the validity of these claims with the function of the category, which is to recognize that the debate exists rather than give credence to the theory that Elagabalus may have been queer. [[User:Rylee Amelia|Rylee Amelia]] ([[User talk:Rylee Amelia|talk]]) 22:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::The category as created specifies 'ambiguous or disputed sexuality'. Since the article has tons of RS debating that exact question, it's perfect. I would have had that exact objection to the LGBTQ tag which would be either OR or SYNTH {{endash}} there is remarkably little evidence either way, but there is plenty of scholarly debate. Cheers, [[User:Last1in|Last1in]] ([[User talk:Last1in|talk]]) 13:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

== Beard ==

I see that Professor [[Mary Beard (classicist)|Mary Beard]], in her BBC programme ''Mary Beard's Ultimate Rome: Empire Without Limit'', largely attributes the questions over Elagabalus's gender identity to later historical propaganda. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 14:20, 4 December 2024 (UTC)