View source for Talk:Letter (alphabet)

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==How should alphabets/articles be listed?==

When I started this article I intended for the alphabet listings to be a directory of articles rather than lists of symbols. Accordingly, it may be more proper to list the letters of alphabets as such:

[[Arabic alphabet]]: [[Alif]] ({{lang|ar|ﺍ}}), [[Beth (letter)|Beth]] ({{lang|ar|ﺏ}}), [[Taw (letter)|Taw]] ({{lang|ar|ﺕ}}), [[Ṯāʼ]] ({{lang|ar|ﺙ}}), [[Gimel (letter)|Gimel]] ({{lang|ar|ﺝ}}), [[Heth (letter)|Heth]] ({{lang|ar|ﺡ}}), [[ḫāʼ]] ({{lang|ar|ﺥ}}), [[Dalet]] ({{lang|ar|ﺩ}}), [[ḏāl]] ({{lang|ar|ﺫ}}), [[Resh]] ({{lang|ar|ﺭ}}), [[Zayin]] ({{lang|ar|ﺯ}}), [[Shin (letter)|Shin]] ({{lang|ar|ﺱ}}), [[Shin (letter)|Shin]] ({{lang|ar|ﺵ}}), [[Tsade]] ({{lang|ar|ﺹ}}), [[ḍād]] ({{lang|ar|ﺽ}}), [[Teth]] ({{lang|ar|ﻁ}}), [[ẓāʼ]] ({{lang|ar|ﻅ}}), [[Ayin]] ({{lang|ar|ﻉ}}), [[ġayn]] ({{lang|ar|ﻍ}}), [[Pe (letter)|Pe]] ({{lang|ar|ﻑ}}),  [[Qoph]] ({{lang|ar|ﻕ}}), [[Kaph]] ({{lang|ar|ﻙ}}), [[Lamedh]] ({{lang|ar|ﻝ}}), [[Mem]] ({{lang|ar|ﻡ}}), [[Nun (letter)|Nun]] ({{lang|ar|ﻥ}}), [[He (letter)|He]] ({{lang|ar|هـ}}), [[Waw (letter)|Waw]] ({{lang|ar|ﻭ}}), [[Yodh]] ({{lang|ar|ﻱ}})

Also problematic is that letters may have many symbols - it may be better to show one symbol paranthetically than invite countless symbols into the mix. But this is just my opinion. What is the consensus? Should the alphabet listings primarily show article names or letter symbols?

[[User:Poggio|Poggio]] 21:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

: Hm. Yes, I thought about that when I added arabic letters... and I concluded that I prefer the symbols. But, if the consensus is reached that the article name should be incuded here - fine by me. Therefore, I vote '''neutral''' :-)  --[[User:Dijxtra|Dijxtra]] 11:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

::Another issue I notice with the "Latin alphabet" listing - the listing in the article appears to be specifically the variant of the Latin alphabet used in English. It is neither a maximal set of Latin characters (which would include many additional letters) nor a minimal set (which would NOT include late additions/modified forms such as J, G, U or W.) It would be better to choose one approach or the other instead of identifying the English variation as 'the Latin alphabet' when it is actually one of many expanded derivatives. I would guess the other alphabets listed may have similar problems as all of them can be used to write diverse languages. [[User:Arker|Arker]] ([[User talk:Arker|talk]]) 04:54, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

==Graphemes==

Would like to hear discussion on why letters are graphemes. The tricky word here is "are." From my understanding of graphemes, letters are a subset of graphemes (since graphemes include punctuation, etc). It is therefore misleading to simply state letters ARE graphemes (as one edit stated). To those unfamiliar with the technical term, grapheme, this may incorrectly imply that graphemes are synonymous with letters. [[User:Poggio|Poggio]] 22:27, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

:Letters ARE graphemes in the same way dogs ARE animals.[[User:St jimmy|St jimmy]] 14:32, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

::And like bugs are insects. ''<span style="color: #800000; background-color: #FFFFA0; padding: 1px 2px 3px 2px">Said: [[User:Rursus|<span style="color: blue">Rursus</span>]] [[User talk:Rursus|<span style="color: #800000">☻</span>]]</span>'' 06:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

== Images ==
There are hundreds if not thousands of images of letters to choose from on commons [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=letter&fulltext=Search] Which ones would be the best to show here? -- [[User:Astrokey44|Astrokey44]]<small>|[[User talk:Astrokey44|talk]]</small> 14:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

: I'm thinking two pictures would be good that show letters from two seperate alphabets.  I really like the one with beads that you just added! [[User:Andromeda321|Andromeda321]] 15:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

::I like the Cyrillic image showing capital, lowercase, and italics, but I'd like to see a version of such an image that also included the handwritten (script) form.  Some letters look very, very differnt between the print and written forms. --[[User:EncycloPetey|EncycloPetey]] 10:59, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

==Greek derivations?==
Is the word "letter" only used for Greek and derived alphabets? What about alphabets (sound-based scripts) such as the [[Arabic alphabet]], the [[Hangul]] and [[kana]]? [[User:Wakuran|惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (&lt; \) (2 /) /)/ *]] 11:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
:Since clarified. -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] ([[User talk:Beland|talk]]) 18:26, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

== will Wikipedia run out of letters ==

Every page has lost of letters, will Wikipedia ever run out?  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Im in ur hows riting teh internets|Im in ur hows riting teh internets]] ([[User talk:Im in ur hows riting teh internets|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Im in ur hows riting teh internets|contribs]]) 22:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Well, you can use the same letter several times... [[User:Wakuran|惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (&lt; \) (2 /) /)/ *]] 13:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

== ... don't belong to here: ==
Hebrew and arabic writing systems. They're not alphabets – they're abjads. I think this article is oldish and needs updating. ''<span style="color: #800000; background-color: #FFFFA0; padding: 1px 2px 3px 2px">Said: [[User:Rursus|<span style="color: blue">Rursus</span>]] [[User talk:Rursus|<span style="color: #800000">☻</span>]]</span>'' 06:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

:Or, as an option, the article is renamed to Letter (writing), in order to prepare for a general enhancement, to contain the main classes of writing systems:
:* '''"Logographies"''' - complex generic syllabary modification systems, in increasing horrificity order: Chinese (not too horrific!), Hieroglyphs, Cuneiform, Crow Congress Footprints;
:* '''Syllabaries''' - full syllable letter sets vowel modifiers only, Korean, Hieratic, Cherokee, Ethiopian,
:* '''Abjads''' - don't contain vowels, Arabic, Hebreew, Arameic, ndmnthrwrtngsstms...
:* '''Alphabeths''' - contain vowels as independent letters, Greek and descendants.
:''<span style="color: #800000; background-color: #FFFFA0; padding: 1px 2px 3px 2px">Said: [[User:Rursus|<span style="color: blue">Rursus</span>]] [[User talk:Rursus|<span style="color: #800000">☻</span>]]</span>'' 07:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

::Eeeh, forget that (for its inaccuracy)! What I mean is that the article needs fact coordination with [[Writing system]], so that &#x5B;&#x5B;Letter (whthck)&#x5D;&#x5D; discusses letters evolution and role, while &#x5B;&#x5B;Writing system&#x5D;&#x5D; discusses the letter system, derivation methods (diacritics, etc.), usage of special letter a.s.o.. ''<span style="color: #800000; background-color: #FFFFA0; padding: 1px 2px 3px 2px">Said: [[User:Rursus|<span style="color: blue">Rursus</span>]] [[User talk:Rursus|<span style="color: #800000">☻</span>]]</span>'' 07:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

== The most common letters ==

What is the most common letters of the alphabets? I mean the most used letters in Latin, Arabic, Cyrillic, Hebrew, Japanese, Chinesse alphabets? Does anybody know about this? 
[[User:Wax69|Wax69]] ([[User talk:Wax69|talk]]) 16:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Since each writing system can be used to write more than one language, and indeed many languages are written with more than one writing system, the question is technically unanswerable. However it is possible to answer for a language/writing system pairing, and this is important in cypher-breaking. For normal written English the frequency table I remember starts with ETAONRISH. Other languages have different frequencies. See [[Frequency_analysis_(cryptanalysis)]] [[User:Arker|Arker]] ([[User talk:Arker|talk]]) 04:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

== Letter sentences? ==

Why are the sentences in the article?  They are not defined (not like a definition is really needed to understand it) and seem to have no importance to the article.  It looks as though someone was just having fun?  Should they be deleated or what? [[User:Beareroflight|βeARer oF liGHt]] ([[User talk:Beareroflight|talk]]) 06:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and its intro, "Here are some 26 alphabet sentences" probably should'nt have "some" in it.  [[User:Beareroflight|βeARer oF liGHt]] ([[User talk:Beareroflight|talk]]) 06:15, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

== song lodi ==


song lodi  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.224.155.84|69.224.155.84]] ([[User talk:69.224.155.84|talk]]) 06:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Comment Added

This coment shall be deleted.--[[Special:Contributions/66.131.190.6|66.131.190.6]] ([[User talk:66.131.190.6|talk]]) 18:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)_

== Letter-Words ==
How come there is no article about the usage of single-letters as words, such as ''A'' and ''I''. I'd like to see how other languages use the alphabet to create words from a single letter. --[[User:Moopstick|Moopstick]] ([[User talk:Moopstick|talk]]) 00:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
:The article does cover single-letter words in English.  There would be too many to cover all the languages of the world, but Wiktionary has comprehensive lists for each letter.  See, e.g. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/a -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] ([[User talk:Beland|talk]]) 18:17, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

== Reply Image ==

To Astrokeyy44.
I like the image wiht the greek letter on the vase.--[[Special:Contributions/66.131.190.6|66.131.190.6]] ([[User talk:66.131.190.6|talk]]) 17:57, 19 September 2010 (UTC)_

==Latin vs. English==
Latin Is the same as english right.--[[Special:Contributions/66.131.190.6|66.131.190.6]] ([[User talk:66.131.190.6|talk]]) 18:45, 19 September 2010 (UTC)_

The article was a bit misleading, so I fixed it.  The [[Latin alphabet]] used to write the Latin language has a different set of letters than the current [[English alphabet]].  However, the English alphabet is the same as the [[ISO basic Latin alphabet]] for historical reasons.  "Latin" is used to refer to a variety of national alphabets that use [[Latin script]]. -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] ([[User talk:Beland|talk]]) 18:28, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

== Origin of Letter ==

The origin of the word 'letter' is tamil word 'எழுத்து' ''Ezhutthu'' which means the written alphabets or any other symbol. In tamil grammatical book ''[[Tolkāppiyam]]'' , the first part is Ezhuttadikaram. This book has been dated variously between 8000 BCE and 10th CE. Just try to know these basis. The verb form of that word is 'எழுது' ''Ezhuthu'' which means 'to write'. This is origin of all the word literature, literary, etc., Can you allow this to add into this article ? --[[User:Inbamkumar86|Inbamkumar86]] ([[User talk:Inbamkumar86|talk]]) 09:50, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

ezhutthu + ar -> elutthu + ar -> elett(h)er -> lett(h)er.

Actually, tamil word 'எழுத்து' has a root இலு (இழு) 'ilu' which means pull. 

mid-12c., 'graphic symbol, written character,' from O.Fr. lettre, from L. littera (also litera) "letter of the alphabet," of uncertain origin, perhaps from Gk. diphthera "tablet," with change of d- to l- as in lachrymose. In this sense it replaced O.E. bocstæf, lit. "book staff" (cf. Ger. Buchstabe "letter, character," from O.H.G. buohstab, from P.Gmc. *bok-staba-m). The pl. litteræ in Latin meant "epistle, written documents, literature," a sense first attested early 13c. in M.E., replacing O.E. ærendgewrit, lit. "errand-writing." School letter in sports, first awarded by U. of Chicago football coach Amos Alonzo Stagg. 

late 14c., from L. lit(t)eratura "learning, writing, grammar," originally "writing formed with letters," from lit(t)era "letter." Originally "book learning" (it replaced O.E. boccræft), the meaning "literary production or work" is first attested 1779 in Johnson's "Lives of the English Poets" (he didn't include this definition in his dictionary, however); that of "body of writings from a period or people" is first recorded 1812.  
--[[User:Inbamkumar86|Inbamkumar86]] ([[User talk:Inbamkumar86|talk]]) 10:50, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

== Copyediting ==

I am going to copy-edit this page, and fix any grammatical errors (such as spelling, punctuation, etc.) [[User:JasminePflepsen|JasminePflepsen]] ([[User talk:JasminePflepsen|talk]]) 23:20, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

== Edits via WikiEDU for HES Intro to Linguistics ==

Hello- overall I think you've made some good edits here, but you may want to go over it again as I caught one or two small grammatical mistakes. The other major comment I have is that while there are certainly a good deal of hyperlinks within the article, it seems to be lacking in actual citations, so perhaps you could beef that up a bit! --[[User:Catearmi|Catearmi]] ([[User talk:Catearmi|talk]]) 13:34, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

== Evaluation (for HSS intro to linguistics) ==

This article is missing citations and sources for various sections of the article. The "History" section skipped over large chunks of time. There is some irrelevant information in the "A classical definition" section. There is also no section on letter-words. There is no definition of abjads in the article. Most of the information that is there is good, but is lacking citations. [[User:JasminePflepsen|JasminePflepsen]] ([[User talk:JasminePflepsen|talk]]) 13:07, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

== Sources ==

These are the sources I plan to use to edit this article.
Fromkin, Victoria, Robert Rodman, and Nina Hyams. An Introduction to Language. 10th ed. Boston: Wadsworth Cengage Learning, 2014. Print.
Harris, Roy. "Writing as Representation." Origin of Writing. London: Gerald Duckworth, 1986. 76-121. Print.
Moorhouse, A. C. Writing and the Alphabet. London: Cobbett, 1946. Print.
Ogg, Oscar. The 26 Letters. N.p.: Thomas Y. Crowell Company, 1971. Print.
[[User:JasminePflepsen|JasminePflepsen]] ([[User talk:JasminePflepsen|talk]]) 13:53, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

== Additional Thoughts ==

The article looks great! Very informative.  As an additional piece of information you might thinking about what popular/common languages use what alphabets.  Also, if you are going to include pictures you could put a picture of the IPA in your article (for clarification).  The only other big piece is that I notice that you use a picture of the ASL alphabet... maybe talk about that a little bit in your article as well? Great job though. [[User:Zoe1117|Zoe1117]] ([[User talk:Zoe1117|talk]]) 19:41, 29 July 2017 (UTC) Zoe1117


== PeerReview Suggestions  ==
I like the article.  The additional citation is needed per wiki rules.  Outside of that, good job.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Rorschaq|Rorschaq]] ([[User talk:Rorschaq#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rorschaq|contribs]]) 23:13, 29 July 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Lowercase ==

"Only two Roman letters, a and g, have more than one standard lowercase form."
AFAIK r, s and z have at least two (mostly standard) lowercase forms (though in z's case the "standard" state is currently debatable), and if we add italics to the mix (which is also standard lowercase) there are even more multi-form letters.[[Special:Contributions/139.47.7.19|139.47.7.19]] ([[User talk:139.47.7.19|talk]]) 23:43, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

==Edit suggestions==
I am thinking about adding a use section, about how letters are used. Summary of I what I propose to include: Not only are they used to write words, but they are also used in constructing sequences, abbreviations, to create unique identifiers, and to describe shapes. There are derivatives of letters that have become symbols with various uses.  Applications include the fields of mathematics, physics, chemistry, biochemistry, astronomy, biology, computer science, engineering, transport, and commerce. (each of which I would expand with a few sentences). [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 10:17, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

== Ampersand ==

In the table of alphabets, the Latin alphabet ends with an ampersand (&).  Does this mean something, or is this an oversight or minor vandalism? - [[User:Jkgree|Jkgree]] ([[User talk:Jkgree|talk]]) 20:44, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
:Take a read of [[Ampersand]] to find out the story. I do not believe this is vandalism. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 10:02, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

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== This entry is based on a false premise ==

The welsh alphabet is comprised of letters, as are all alphabets - OK.

The welsh letter "d (D)" is different to the welsh letter "dd (Dd)" - NOT OK. Fails the definition right at the start. They are NOT digraphs; they are separate and distinct letters.

BTW this makes it difficult for programs to tell the difference between two adjacent "d" in a word and one "dd". There is no gramatical rule to apply!   Strictly a different ISO character should be used but most people type welsh on an english keyboard.

Would anyone like to comment ? [[User:Precious47140|Precious47140]] ([[User talk:Precious47140|talk]]) 23:01, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

:There are simply two different levels of analysis one can work with here. There's no contradiction. [[User:Remsense|<span style="border-radius:2px 0 0 2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F;color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]][[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="border:1px solid #1E816F;border-radius:0 2px 2px 0;padding:1px 3px;color:#000">诉</span>]] 23:09, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
::Unicode does not have a digraph for DD or dd that I can find. It does have LL and LL for middle Welsh: 
::* {{Unichar|1EFA}}
::* {{Unichar|1EFB}}
::Modern translation and textual analysis software is very good at determine context. --[[User:JMF|𝕁𝕄𝔽]] ([[User talk:JMF|talk]]) 22:31, 30 April 2024 (UTC)