View source for Talk:Lists of unusual deaths/Archive 16

{{aan}}

== [[Sophie (musician)]] ==

Yes, there are two sources. Yes, both sources use the words "freak accident". But deaths by accidental fall from a roof must be quite common? I suspect that the death has been reported more since she was famous. Does her fame make her death any more unusual than that of, say, a local builder? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 20:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC) p.s. [[User:Rori1911|Rori1911]], I'm sure all your edits, since you joined on 5 July, have been made in good faith, but are you aware of [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account]]? Thanks.

:While I do agree that said death isn't all that unusual, it seems like, unless someone makes a case for the sources used being unreliable, our hands are tied on this one. [[User:ZionniThePeruser|ZionniThePeruser]] ([[User talk:ZionniThePeruser|talk]]) 03:45, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
::A death from a fall is extremely common, [https://www.nsc.org/workplace/safety-topics/slips-trips-and-falls/slips-trips-and-falls-home 46,653 Americans died in 2022] from some type of fall. As [[Laborers' International Union of North America|LiUNA]] points out[https://lhsfna.org/pushing-back-against-the-idea-of-freak-accidents/ here], {{tq|Journalists may use this term to create an attention-grabbing headline or make the story seem more “newsworthy”}} and judging by a few of the entries I've seen, journalists indeed seem likely to be overly generous with describing something as a "freak accident" when the circumstances are rather more commonplace than they are suggesting. Looking past the attention grabbing description and looking at the facts themselves, this does not appear to be an unusual death in any way, our hands are not tied just because [https://www.starobserver.com.au/artsentertainment/transgender-producer-sophie-xeon-dies-in-freak-accident/200370 an anonymous contributor] and a [https://newuniversity.org/2021/02/08/honoring-sophie-the-life-and-legacy-of-the-late-grammy-nominated-producer/ campus paper's intern] used attention-grabbing verbiage. - [[User:Aoidh|Aoidh]] ([[User talk:Aoidh|talk]]) 03:58, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
:::I've had it drilled in my head time and time again that Wikipedia goes by what sources say, even if editors believe otherwise. [[Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth|Verifiability, not truth]] and all that. Wouldn't removing this entry because we don't consider it unusual stray into [[WP:OR]]? [[User:ZionniThePeruser|ZionniThePeruser]] ([[User talk:ZionniThePeruser|talk]]) 05:17, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
::::It scarcely matters because the sources call the death a freak accident anyway, but I think SOPHIE's death was sufficiently unusual because she was a famous (and Wikipedia-notable) person who was taking photographs of the Moon when she fell. Just my two cents. [[User:Gildir|Gildir]] ([[User talk:Gildir|talk]]) 06:34, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::Someone's fame makes their death, however it happens, "more unusual"? Not just "more notable"?? I suspect lots of people take photographs of the moon. Lots of people climb onto roofs with no safety gear. Lots of people fall off. But most of them aren't famous Scottish music producers, songwriters, and DJs. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 06:52, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
::::{{Reply to|ZionniThePeruser}} No, applying Wikipedia policy ([[WP:ONUS]]) does not contradict what is written in [[WP:VNT]], particularly the second paragraph of that essay. This verifiability is sourced to two questionable opinion pieces that use this phrase in passing without making an attempt to explain what makes it a freak accident, and sources that have more established reliability do not describe it as such. Omitting such an entry has nothing to do with [[WP:OR]]. - [[User:Aoidh|Aoidh]] ([[User talk:Aoidh|talk]]) 00:33, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
:::Not great sources, are they. ''[[The Guardian]]'', used as the [https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/jan/30/sophie-acclaimed-avant-pop-producer-dies-aged-34 source] in her article, doesn't say her death was unusual, just that it was a "sudden accident." [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 06:57, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
: Ooo, tricky. On the one hand, as [[user:ZionniThePeruser|Zionni]] points out, the sources call it a freak accident (historically a qualifier for inclusion), and [[WP:VNT]]. On the other, the ''[[Daily Mail]]'' isn't even calling it weird, and they're one of the most likely to sensationalize, so if ''they're'' not calling it unusual... It was unexpected and it was unlikely (sounds like she was up on a roof terrace, so I assume people were intended to be on that roof), but I don't know if I personally would call it unusual. Granted my personal opinion is worth about as much as a single baked bean, but still.
: I could be persuaded either way. I do think "freak accident" is a valid qualifier, looking over the other deaths that have used that phrase; I also think this ''particular'' "freak accident" isn't really that freaky on the balance of things, and could be trimmed as editorial oversight. [[User:NekoKatsun|NekoKatsun]] ([[User talk:NekoKatsun|nyaa]]) 16:46, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
::It is tricky. The words "freak accident" might carry more weight in ''[[The Daily Telegraph]]'' or in ''[[The BMJ]]'', than in those two existing sources. They really don't look very 'reliable', do they. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 17:47, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
* No Rod Hull?, then no Sophie. [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 18:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
*:Well, he wasn't photographing the moon, he was just "adjusting the television aerial on the roof of his bungalow at half-time during an [[Inter Milan]] vs. [[Manchester United F.C.|Manchester United]] match" (... which is not at all unusual). [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 18:22, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
*::Keep in mind, Martin, that SOPHIE was transgender, so please use her appropriate pronouns she/her. Using her dead pronouns seems offensive. [[User:Rori1911|Rori1911]] ([[User talk:Rori1911|talk]]) 16:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
*:::Errm, I was referring to [[Rod Hull|Rod]]. I've used she/her for Sophie throughout elsewhere here? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 16:26, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

== Cleopatra  ==

The asp thing started with Shakespeare. It was a poisoned hair pin [[User:Whoami313|Whoami313]] ([[User talk:Whoami313|talk]]) 17:03, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

:At least she wasn't killed by having poison [[Ghost (Hamlet)|poured into her ear while asleep]]? But, it [https://www.entandaudiologynews.com/features/history-of-ent/post/murder-most-foul-strange-and-unnatural does happen]! [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 16:36, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

== Mysterious = Strange or Unusual ==

I have seen this multiple times on here, but I see that people disregard the word "mysterious" as unusual. However, I found this Collins' dictionary site that states: "Someone or something that is mysterious is strange and is not known about or understood." Also, "strange" is listed as a synonym.

I don't know if this will, in fact, fully settle this debate.

Link: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/mysterious#:~:text=Someone%20or%20something%20that%20is,curious%20More%20Synonyms%20of%20mysterious [[User:Rori1911|Rori1911]] ([[User talk:Rori1911|talk]]) 13:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

:Doesn't "mysterious" imply that some or all of the details are unknown, i.e. a mystery? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 16:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
:By that logic, wouldn't all those listed in [[List of unsolved deaths]] and/or [[List of people who disappeared mysteriously at sea]] be eligible for inclusion here? [[User:ZionniThePeruser|ZionniThePeruser]] ([[User talk:ZionniThePeruser|talk]]) 19:39, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

== Catherine Steyer - Jan. 1937 ==

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-morning-call/101133365/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-gazette/101032333/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/daily-news/101135896/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-herald-sun/101133293/

This is a death I pretty randomly stumbled upon and seems to fit this list to a T, as it looks to me like a very unusual incident that is unique/probably hasn't occurred in that exact manner anywhere else. However, [[Wikipedia:NOR|I'm not a reliable source]], and since the sources don't explicitly describe it as "unusual", I wanted to check with people before adding this. The best I got is the Gazette or the NY Daily News' describing it as a "bizarre/baffling mystery" (with the Herald-Sun mentioning a "bizarre" trap).

Is this good enough, or should I just forget about it? [[User:LaughingManiac|LaughingManiac]] ([[User talk:LaughingManiac|talk]]) 14:28, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

:i mean the word 'bizarre' could/can count. [[User:Chaliceborn777|Chaliceborn777]] ([[User talk:Chaliceborn777|talk]]) 23:25, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
::All right, thanks for the input. Given the discussion above, I'll wait a few days to see if anyone disagrees, then [[WP:BEBOLD|BEBOLD]] and add this. [[User:LaughingManiac|LaughingManiac]] ([[User talk:LaughingManiac|talk]]) 00:51, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
:Well, I gave it a month, and got no other responses. Thus, I've added it, as I stated I would. If anyone has issues with the phrasing, by all means, feel free to correct (or suggest). I tried to be somewhat detailed to emphasize the unusualness of the death, while not dwelling unduly on the minutiae - that said, I understand if someone finds it a little too wordy, or awkwardly presented. [[User:LaughingManiac|LaughingManiac]] ([[User talk:LaughingManiac|talk]]) 19:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

== More "first" deaths ==
Please note that [[User:Bdblakley29]] has recently added four more entries for "first" deaths to the list ([[Thorvald Eiriksson]], 1006; two Dutch sailors, 9 July 1594; unknown man, 15 August 1640; John Gregory Tierney and Harold Connelly, 20 December 1922). I still fail to see how we can include "first" deaths that sources do not explicitly call "strange" or "unusual" without making the list far longer than it now is, nor what other criteria we could use to keep the number of "first" deaths to a reasonable limit. (We ought to consider removing [[Thomas Selfridge]], 17 September 1908, and possibly even the [[Soyuz 11]] crew, for the same reason, whereas some other "first" deaths, such as [[Bridget Driscoll]], are properly sourced as being unusual as well as first-time events.) [[User:Gildir|Gildir]] ([[User talk:Gildir|talk]]) 01:11, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

:Honestly, if you think we should delete the aforementioned entries then do it.   [[User:Bdblakley29|Bdblakley29]] ([[User talk:Bdblakley29|talk]]) 01:44, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
:The currently agreed criterion makes no mention of "first". We'd need another RfC to agree that. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 11:23, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
::I will begin deleting entries for "first" deaths with no sources calling them "unusual" or a synonym and moving "first" deaths with only one source calling them "unusual" to the holding tank. [[User:Gildir|Gildir]] ([[User talk:Gildir|talk]]) 13:15, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

== "455 quotations" ==

Regarding [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=List_of_unusual_deaths&diff=prev&oldid=1251911679 this recent edit]: my understanding is that the quotations in the references have been deliberately added to allow an easy means of verification that the sources describe the death as "unusual" &etc. I'm not sure there are other methods of providing this is a convenient way. Any suggestions? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 20:09, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

:What is the word count limit for a quote in a reference? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 14:11, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

== suicide by volcano: I have two unusual deaths to be considered for addition to this list.  ==

first and foremost is a suicide by volcano from the 1983 catastrophic and explosive eruption of mt. St. Helens in WA state. Owner of the Mt.St.Helens lodge Mr. Harry R. Truman is a local folk hero for refusing to leave after several official evacuations of the entire region surrounding the volcano. Mr. Truman, the entire USA knew for weeks prior that an eruption was imminent. Truman's death attributed to "pyroclastic flow" alone is worthy of this list. The facts that this was a suicide by volcano as well as that he was a respected war veteran and resort owner, but also that Truman took with him 16 pet cats that he refused to evacuate. All died as a result when the volcano erupted and sent a tsunami of scolding hot earth, lava, and ash completely consuming his lodge and burying it and the adjacent Spirit Lake in a reported 150ft deep mass of debris. The reported landslide was given the record for largest landslide in recorded history. Most certainly this is a more unusual and spectacular demise then dozens already on this list. Not to mention world renown. 

My second one is an obvious one that I'm absolutely stunned isnt on this list. You'll have to do the fact finding for Bruce Lee. His death is still the subject of conspiracy theories and superstitious folklore to this day. Not too mention it is still mostly a mystery. [[Special:Contributions/2601:600:CB00:2BD0:40D1:A49B:5EC9:BEE3|2601:600:CB00:2BD0:40D1:A49B:5EC9:BEE3]] ([[User talk:2601:600:CB00:2BD0:40D1:A49B:5EC9:BEE3|talk]]) 06:18, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

:The criteria for inclusion at present is that there are at least two reliable sources that call the death "unusual" or some synonym thereof. People who refuse to evacuate and are killed by natural disasters are sadly pretty common, and conspiracy theories don't inherently make a death unusual. If you can find sources that support these, though, you're welcome to add them. [[User:NekoKatsun|NekoKatsun]] ([[User talk:NekoKatsun|nyaa]]) 21:13, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

== Betty Stobbs ==

I found this one thing on a list of strange deaths in history and this one incident about a farmer being pushed off of a cliff by 60 sheep. It seems like a freak accident, but let me know. [[User:RBainbridge2000|RBainbridge2000]] ([[User talk:RBainbridge2000|talk]]) 20:58, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
: Got two reliable sources calling it a freak accident? [[User:NekoKatsun|NekoKatsun]] ([[User talk:NekoKatsun|nyaa]]) 21:11, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
::Trying to find some reliable ones, but I'll keep ya updated. [[User:RBainbridge2000|RBainbridge2000]] ([[User talk:RBainbridge2000|talk]]) 16:52, 26 October 2024 (UTC)