View source for Talk:Lyle and Erik Menendez/Archive 1


== Bob Menendez redirect ==
I think the redirect should go to a disambiguation page since [[Bob Menendez]] is now a U.S. [[senator]].  But I don't know how to do this. [[User:Bruxism|Bruxism]] 19:51, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

== Erik's age ==
According to his date of birth and time of murders, Erik was just 17 years old. Isn't this technically a minor and thus could be sentenced as a juvenile? Although even 14-15 year old murderers get sentenced as adults, just wondering if his age was a consideration at all. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/210.49.155.106|210.49.155.106]] ([[User talk:210.49.155.106|talk]]) 22:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

:From my experience with the court systems (misdeamonors, minor crimes) they consider you an adult in the eyes of the law at 16. You can no longer use your youthful offender (get out of jail free with no record) at 16. This may vary from state to state, however. I'm speaking from a Connecticut perspective. I would assume that it would be incredibly rare for age to have a bearing on any serious crimes if they were 16 years old or older. [[User:Tainted42|Tainted42]] 18:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

:It's common knowledge that Erik was 18 years old at the time of the killings. He was born in 1970, not 1971. [[User:Smitty48|Smitty48]] ([[User talk:Smitty48|talk]]) 13:13, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
aasdjkajsdoqwoeqwleas,d.lzliqwoqqwlqw8e12l1ooiae.lzcu zxczx pa qwoqeasdo98qoeqi2323i23kqkwelasdyailzuqweuiacasd  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/85.92.184.108|85.92.184.108]] ([[User talk:85.92.184.108#top|talk]]) 09:41, 20 September 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Fair use rationale for Image:Book menendez.jpg==
[[Image:Nuvola apps important.svg|70px|left]]
'''[[:Image:Book menendez.jpg]]''' is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under [[Wikipedia:Fair use|fair use]] but there is no [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline|explanation or rationale]] as to why its use in '''this''' Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Fair use|boilerplate fair use template]], you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with [[WP:FU|fair use]].

Please go to [[:Image:Book menendez.jpg|the image description page]] and edit it to include a [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline |fair use rationale]]. Using one of the templates at [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline]] is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Images.2FMedia|criteria for speedy deletion]]. If you have any questions please ask them at the [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions|Media copyright questions page]]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Missing rationale2 -->

[[User:BetacommandBot|BetacommandBot]] ([[User talk:BetacommandBot|talk]]) 19:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

==Judalon Smyth==
Check the facts. Judalon Smyth, L. Jerome Oziel's mistress, went to the police after Oziel let her listen to a tape he had made of the confession. Oziel was the psychiatrist whom the Wiki article mentions as threatened by Erik. The facts in this article should be verified.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Altj1|Altj1]] ([[User talk:Altj1|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Altj1|contribs]]) 12:55, 22 May 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Parents' wealth==
Any idea what happened to the remainder of the family fortune? [[User:Juve2000|Juve2000]] ([[User talk:Juve2000|talk]]) 02:47, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/04/05/us/estate-left-menendezes-by-parents-is-dwindling.html  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/67.52.146.12|67.52.146.12]] ([[User talk:67.52.146.12|talk]]) 00:55, 12 December 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Most likely, the defense attorneys for Erik and Lyle Menendez got it all.&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Hydrargyrum|Quicksilver]]<sup>[[User_talk:Hydrargyrum|T]] [[Special:Emailuser/Hydrargyrum|@]]</sup> 20:32, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

== Gratuitous mention of irrelevant brand names? ==
This might seem a trivial issue, but isn't this article absolutely swimming in brand names? It's almost as though it's trying hard to rub in how wealthy the family in question was- making for a really annoying read.
I'm not saying that including these are completely baseless, but detailing the brand of the car, watch, or firearm every single time one is mentioned is quite inconsequential and detracts from the article's continuity and quality. Or is it just me? —[[User:Tshloab|Tshloab]] ([[User talk:Tshloab|talk]]) 03:13, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

:I tend to agree.  I suggest the name of the restaurant that was purchased might be good to edit.  I came here hoping to help with the backlog of BLPs lacking references, but this article seems fully referenced.  As a newbie, I do not understand why this is not published and then edited further as needed.  I also don't understand this much discussion without any actual "be bold" editing.  Responses welcome! —&nbsp;[[User:Anne9853|Anne9853]] ([[User talk:Anne9853|talk]]) 23:05, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

== Missing paragraph in the Crime section ==
I noticed that part of the article seems to have been deleted from the crime section. The section goes from describing the indictment to the retrial trial. It entirely skips the 1st, more controversial trial.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.94.129.225|76.94.129.225]] ([[User talk:76.94.129.225|talk]]) 20:00, 17 November 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Lyle Menendez' birthplace ==
There is confusion about  Lyle Menendez' birthplace.  The article, based on one Web reference, says just "Illinois".  Some other Web sources say New York City, New York. NNDB says Cedar Grove, New Jersey.  Which one is correct?&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Hydrargyrum|Quicksilver]]<sup>[[User_talk:Hydrargyrum|T]] [[Special:Emailuser/Hydrargyrum|@]]</sup> 20:32, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

:Most likely, it was New York City, based on the [http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/menendez/life_5.html Crime Library article] by Rachel Pergament.  She writes that Jose and Kitty Menendez moved to Illinois in 1969 with their infant son, Joseph Lyle.  Jose had been working for the accounting firm of Coopers & Lybrand, which apparently had offices in Manhattan.  Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean the couple lived ''in'' New York City at the time of their son's birth; they could have lived in one of a number of nearby towns, with him commuting to his job; Cedar Grove, New Jersey, is not out of the question.  Pergament's article does, however, rule out Illinois as the birthplace.&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Hydrargyrum|Quicksilver]]<sup>[[User_talk:Hydrargyrum|T]] [[Special:Emailuser/Hydrargyrum|@]]</sup> 21:47, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

== Last Man Standing ==

I somewhat doubt that this crime was mentioned in this movie when you take into consideration the fact that it was set in the 1930s. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:C7F:7401:8700:540C:AEBC:15D5:7307|2A02:C7F:7401:8700:540C:AEBC:15D5:7307]] ([[User talk:2A02:C7F:7401:8700:540C:AEBC:15D5:7307|talk]]) 14:23, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on [[Lyle and Erik Menendez]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/815457962|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141102021701/http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/menendez/life_5.html to http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/menendez/life_5.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061107093811/http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/menendez/index_1.html to http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/menendez/index_1.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 23:08, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

== Picture ==

The same picture is used for Lyle and Erik. Its Erik's picture twice.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2601:186:4580:1387:4D61:6AED:343B:3BBE|2601:186:4580:1387:4D61:6AED:343B:3BBE]] ([[User talk:2601:186:4580:1387:4D61:6AED:343B:3BBE#top|talk]]) 13:58, 3 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Number of Gunshots ==

I've seen multiple sources state the total number of gunshots was 15, but if Jose Menendez received 6 shots and Kitty Menendez got 10, that would add up to 16 shots total. Can anyone explain this discrepancy? 

(I did a simple Google search and multiple articles listed the 15-shot total) [[Special:Contributions/66.91.36.8|66.91.36.8]] ([[User talk:66.91.36.8|talk]]) 20:51, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

==Wiki Education assignment: Composition I - Writing Wikipedia, section 2==
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/Indiana_University_of_Pennsylvania/Composition_I_-_Writing_Wikipedia,_section_2_(Fall_2022) | assignments = [[User:Chickenoodlesoup05|Chickenoodlesoup05]] | start_date = 2022-08-22 | end_date = 2022-12-06 }}

<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by [[User:Matthewvetter|DarthVetter]] ([[User talk:Matthewvetter|talk]]) 17:31, 18 October 2022 (UTC)</span>

== Popular Culture ==

In Season 8 Episode 20 (1996) "Married with Children", Al references them in a joke. [[User:Drsruli|Drsruli]] ([[User talk:Drsruli|talk]]) 06:51, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
== Suggestion to add an article ==
Why not add page about pedofile José Menendez?/  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/213.113.46.53|213.113.46.53]] ([[User talk:213.113.46.53#top|talk]]) 15:32, 25 September 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Menéndez vs Menendez ==

Should this be formatted as "Menéndez" in the title? --[[User:Jennica|<span style="font-weight:bold;font-variant:small-caps;color:#FFFFFF;background-color:#F49259;letter-spacing:1pt;">Jennica</span>]]<span style="background-color:#B4DF6F">✿</span> / <sup>[[User_talk:Jennica| talk]]</sup> 04:17, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
:{{Reply to|Jennica}} I've fixed it.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 21:50, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
::[[WP:COMMONNAME]] Menendez is more common than Menéndez.--[[User:Wester|Wester]] ([[User talk:Wester|talk]]) 16:52, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:::Hi @[[User:Wester|Wester]], just a question out of curiosity. Because I see that you are now changing this name everywhere. But what is the official spelling of their name? Or does that not matter? [[User:RuedNL2|RuedNL2]] ([[User talk:RuedNL2|talk]]) 21:38, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Wester|Wester]], this page should not have been moved since there was no consensus on the talk page. You need to prove [[WP:COMMONNAME]] with many reliable sources; you can't just say it's common and move a page. 
:::Additionally, you cannot change the spelling of names without proper sources to back it up. Please stop removing "é" from their names. 
:::-- [[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] ([[User talk:Mjks28|talk]]) 21:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
::::Read the source materials linked in the article. They all mention Menenedez without é. It's the common name in English. See also https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%201-d&q=Menendez,Men%C3%A9ndez&hl=en You also seem to forget the page was moved to the hyper-correct Menénedez without much discussion. The two brothers were English speaking Americans, not Spanish speaking Cubans. --Wester (talk) 21:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::Regardless of how the page was previously moved, a proper consensus is still required before you move a page. —[[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] ([[User talk:Mjks28|talk]]) 21:57, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::I did not know that at the time the change was made without consultation to add the "é". But I do agree with the change to Menendez. If you actually look at the sources in the article, the greater majority of them write about "Menendez". In addition, all film/series titles are also without the "é". <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:RuedNL2|RuedNL2]] ([[User talk:RuedNL2#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/RuedNL2|contribs]]) 22:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)</small>

== Evidence  ==

What about gun residue on the hands [[Special:Contributions/2600:6C4A:4FF0:990:B4DE:7E5E:9160:7335|2600:6C4A:4FF0:990:B4DE:7E5E:9160:7335]] ([[User talk:2600:6C4A:4FF0:990:B4DE:7E5E:9160:7335|talk]]) 23:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

:According to the TV documentary I just watched, the police did not test them as initially the authorities did not consider the brothers to be suspects. 
:[[User:Wschart|Wschart]] ([[User talk:Wschart|talk]]) 16:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

== People Article Notesd That The Brothers claimed Abuse Stopped When Lyle Was 8 and Erik Was 6 ==
It is a good article.[https://people.com/the-menendez-brothers-true-story-8714540]
  That is miscommunication. As what is stated in the portion of the article "The brothers claimed that when Lyle was about 8 years old, José stopped sexually abusing him and began sexually abusing 6-year-old Erik." Notice the key word, "began"?[https://people.com/the-menendez-brothers-true-story-8714540]

== I Don't Trust Rossello's Credibility ==
He also previously made a separate sex abuse claim which was able to get televised in 2014.[http://www.latinpost.com/articles/24208/20141022/roy-rosello-alleges-former-menudo-manager-abused-him-had-ricky-martin-dress-as-woman.htm] Though his claim against Edgardo Diaz would lead to the a police investigation in 2023, [https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-05-02/menudo-sexual-assault-allegations-against-founder-edgardo-diaz-los-angeles-police-investigation-teen-band-member-roy-rossello] it has still not resulted in any breakthrough. I like claims that are neutral and with good credibility.[[User:Speakfor23|Speakfor23]] ([[User talk:Speakfor23|talk]]) 20:14, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:There's some sense of credibility, whether we disagree or not. Erik Menendez himself witness Rosello going into a room with Jose Menendez (in 1985, the year of said assault). Right now, it's plausible speculation at this point of time. [[User:Edfl22|Edfl22]] ([[User talk:Edfl22|talk]]) 03:09, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

== Does anyone know why there’s no page for the brothers father Jose? Seems strange. ==

I was searching Wikipedia and I could not find an article for the 2 brothers father (and victim) Jose. I find it odd since he was a Hollywood producer and a major figure at the now defunct Caralco pictures. There's no mention of him on the Wikipedia article in the article on Caralco either. Does anyone else find this strange or have an explanation as to why this is? Thanks for any reply in advance! [[User:Dacroce1|Dacroce1]] ([[User talk:Dacroce1|talk]]) 06:11, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

:@[[User:Dacroce1|Dacroce1]] Was there an article at some point before that's gotten deleted? If not, then it's likely that the reason is just that no one has gotten around to it. You might want to check if there is a draft for it. If there isn't, you could create one. [[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] ([[User talk:Mjks28|talk]]) 07:02, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
::Thanks for reply! There's plenty of news articles on the the father so it wouldn't be too difficult to create with citations from those sources. Please forgive my typos as I tend to type quickly and fail to proofread!  [[User:Dacroce1|Dacroce1]] ([[User talk:Dacroce1|talk]]) 03:15, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

== Citation 55 broken ==

The address of the article this cites appears to have changed. It can now be found here: https://people.com/archive/life-love-behind-bars-vol-64-no-19/

I do not know how to edit references, could someone update this? [[User:SageShortForSagebert|SageShortForSagebert]] ([[User talk:SageShortForSagebert|talk]]) 19:03, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

== Seems Epsteined. They hide truth  ==

Eps [[Special:Contributions/213.113.46.53|213.113.46.53]] ([[User talk:213.113.46.53|talk]]) 15:34, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

== Requested move 29 September 2024 ==

<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: var(--background-color-success-subtle, #efe); color: var(--color-base, #000); margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted var(--border-color-subtle, #AAAAAA);"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''

The result of the move request was: '''withdrawn'''. Discussion below reveals that this page was incorrectly moved a year ago to the incorrect name that this RM proposed to move back to. <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> [[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] ([[User talk:Mjks28|talk]]) 23:48, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
----	

[[:Lyle and Erik Menendez]] → {{no redirect|Lyle and Erik Menéndez}} – This page was improperly moved without a consensus on the talk page, so I'm starting a formal discussion here. The reason for the move was cited as [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. However, the mover failed to prove how the lack of é is the common name with sources. —[[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] ([[User talk:Mjks28|talk]]) 21:54, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:Read the source materials liked in the article. They all mention Menenedez without é. It's the common name in English. See also https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%201-d&q=Menendez,Men%C3%A9ndez&hl=en You also seem to forget the page was moved to the hyper-correct Menénedez without much discussion. The two brothers were English speaking Americans, not Spanish speaking Cubans. --Wester (talk) 21:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
::I don't see what being English speaking Americans has to do with it. Other American people, such as [[Héctor Elizondo]], are English speaking Americans, but still use the "é" in their names, despite sources erroneously using "e". —[[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] ([[User talk:Mjks28|talk]]) 22:08, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:::The fact that the boys are American obviously means nothing, since their father did come from Cuba, so that spelling is possible. But if you actually look at the sources in the article, the greater majority of them write about "Menendez". In addition, all film/series titles are also without the "é". [[User:RuedNL2|RuedNL2]] ([[User talk:RuedNL2|talk]]) 22:18, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
::::Nit: These "boys" are 56 and 53 years old. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 22:25, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::That should indeed have been "brothers" or "men". Only after seeing the series I forgot that it was already 35 years ago haha. But you understand what I meant to say. [[User:RuedNL2|RuedNL2]] ([[User talk:RuedNL2|talk]]) 22:29, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::Yes, but even back then, they were adults. They were 21 and 18 years old at the time of the killings. It seems important because characterizing them as "boys" was part of their defense strategy, if I remember correctly. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 22:36, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:Before the undiscussed move of 29 September 2024‎ that was mentioned above, there was a previous undiscussed move on 19 April 2023‎ in the opposite direction. Before April 2023, the title was [[Lyle and Erik Menendez]] for 19 years. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 22:23, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:As previously stated, all series and film titles are also written as "Menendez". In addition, Netflix's upcoming documentary, in which the brothers themselves give an interview, will also be released as "The Menendez Brothers". [https://www.netflix.com/tudum/articles/the-menendez-brothers-documentary-release-date-photos-news See for example this Netflix article], I assume that they write the names of the people (in this case the brothers) they interview in the official way. To be clear, I am in favor of the spelling Menendez. And I am '''against''' the change back to Menéndez [[User:RuedNL2|RuedNL2]] ([[User talk:RuedNL2|talk]]) 22:36, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
::In that case, I '''oppose''' this proposed move. We shouldn't be putting accents into the names of high-notability Americans unless there is some clear reason to do that. Such a reason seems currently absent in this case. I just checked and found what appears to be evidence of improper editing of the article. At least four of the cited sources that were identified as having an accent in their headlines and in two direct quotes do not actually have an accent in the sources themselves. The change of the birth names given in direct quotes seem especially egregious. I invite others to check what the sources say and to look in the article history for changes of the titles and quotes from the cited sources. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 22:47, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:::After your post I found five sources that had "Menéndez" in the headline here on Wikipedia, while the sources themselves also simply mentioned "Menendez"... [[User:RuedNL2|RuedNL2]] ([[User talk:RuedNL2|talk]]) 23:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
::::The article also incorrectly included accents in the titles of five books in the "Further reading" section. None of those books have accents on Amazon. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 23:16, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::Between myself and RuedNL2, a lot more sources have been found that improperly showed accents in their headlines. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 23:39, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::How many, if any, sources use the accented name? [[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] ([[User talk:Mjks28|talk]]) 23:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Zero. I also found third one with a direct quote that incorrectly included an accent. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 23:47, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::None of the 94 sources in the article... [[User:RuedNL2|RuedNL2]] ([[User talk:RuedNL2|talk]]) 23:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:::In light of the majority of the sources used in the article spelling it "Menendez", which I didn't know were changed, I now '''oppose''' the move. "Menéndez" is still their real name, so it should be spelled as such in the lead, but since "Menendez" is the common name, that should be used as the article title. I will not withdraw this RM because this section should still be open for discussion so other editors can contribute their POVs. [[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] ([[User talk:Mjks28|talk]]) 23:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
::::How do we know that their "real name" includes an accent? —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 23:18, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] do you have sources that their real name includes an accent? Since all mediaworks, like documentary/film/series/book titles are all without the "é". [[User:RuedNL2|RuedNL2]] ([[User talk:RuedNL2|talk]]) 23:21, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::I live in Australia, so I can't access a lot of the sources that give details about the brothers' actual identities, so I just trust that the sources have been properly checked and applied to Wikipedia. Now, as I see the amount of headlines, quotes and books that have been changed, I realise that seems to not be a good idea. [[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] ([[User talk:Mjks28|talk]]) 23:25, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::If you now oppose the move yourself, I don't understand why you say you will not withdraw it. It has been unanimously opposed. The article has about 100 cited sources and "Further reading" and "External links", and as far as I can tell, ''none'' of them include an accent in the cited sources. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 23:39, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::But wouldn't it be better to withdraw this RM? Since there is no evidence that their names are written with an accent. And this only came about because someone on Wikipedia changed the title without consultation. While everything indicates that it is written without an accent, just like all media titles work and the vast majority of sources... [[User:RuedNL2|RuedNL2]] ([[User talk:RuedNL2|talk]]) 23:42, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::So far, only four editors have contributed to the discussion. It should stay open for other editors, who may have differing POVs and sources that can back up the accented name, to contribute. It may be unanimous now, but it's only been two hours, which isn't enough time. If a day or so has passed and nothing has changed, I will withdraw the RM. [[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] ([[User talk:Mjks28|talk]]) 23:47, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Sorry, but this is the upside down world. There is nothing in the article to indicate that the name was written with an accent, you can't even cite a source yourself. While all 94 sources in the article write the name without an accent. [[User:RuedNL2|RuedNL2]] ([[User talk:RuedNL2|talk]]) 23:53, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::The names were changed for seemingly no reason, yes. However, the RM should stay open to give editors a chance to explain why the "é" was added or should be kept. It's important to hear both sides. [[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] ([[User talk:Mjks28|talk]]) 23:56, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
::::Having looked through the page history, it is clear that the names were changed from Menendez to Menendez without any sources and for seemingly no reason. Seeing as this is the case, their names should be changed back to Menéndez. [[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] ([[User talk:Mjks28|talk]]) 23:55, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Lyle_and_Erik_Menendez&diff=prev&oldid=784405276 Here] is one improper edit that I found. It was at 04:18, 8 June 2017 (UTC) by {{user|Jennica}}. It introduced an incorrect representation of the titles of many cited sources. There was no [[WP:edit summary|edit summary]]. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 00:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::I noticed that it was that editor which first raised the idea of moving the page to Menéndez last year. [[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] ([[User talk:Mjks28|talk]]) 00:40, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::According to the two sources cited in the paragraph about their parents, and also the article in ''[[Psychology Today]]'', their father's name was Jose, not José. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 02:33, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::@[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] Do any sources use José? [[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] ([[User talk:Mjks28|talk]]) 02:49, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::::It is used [https://www.biography.com/news/menendez-brothers-murder-case-facts here]. The number that use "Jose" seems to far exceed the number than use "José". —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 05:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
:Other important evidence that Menendez is the correct spelling, [https://www.amazon.com/They-Said-Wed-Never-Make/dp/0976874407 look at Erik's wife's book], both her name "Tammi Menendez" and the title "They Said We'd Never Make It: My Life With Erik Menendez" do not contain an "é" on the cover. [[User:RuedNL2|RuedNL2]] ([[User talk:RuedNL2|talk]]) 23:12, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' The longstanding stable title of the article is "Menendez".  It was moved without discussion to "Menéndez" in 2023, then reverted today. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 04:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per [[WP:COMMONNAME]].  The OP ([[User:Mjks28]]), per the above discussion, now appears to support "Menendez" and should probably consider withdrawing the RM. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 04:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
*:@[[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] I will keep the RM open for a day or so to encourage more discussion from other editors who may have differing POVs. if nothing has changed after that and the consensus is still Menendez, I will withdraw the RM. [[User:Mjks28|Mjks28]] ([[User talk:Mjks28|talk]]) 04:24, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
</div><div style="clear:both;" class=></div>
== Why is the mother not mentioned? ==

Mention why they killed Mary Louise "Kitty" Menendez and stop being double standard between the genders. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1016:B03C:532:A55B:4547:19A5:C3AD|2600:1016:B03C:532:A55B:4547:19A5:C3AD]] ([[User talk:2600:1016:B03C:532:A55B:4547:19A5:C3AD|talk]]) 21:26, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
:I had a look at the version of the article at the time this comment was made, and I did not see this alleged gender bias of "the mother not mentioned". The killing of their mother was discussed in several places in the article. I notice the word "why" in the comment, and perhaps it is a comment about motive. Of course their motive may not be known for certain. It can be helpful if a comment is more clear and specific. For example, some specific additional sentence could be suggested, along with citation(s) to reliable source(s). —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 03:46, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 7 October 2024 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Lyle and Erik Menendez|answered=yes}}
Change "Kyle" to "Erik"

"Smyth alleges she heard Lyle tell Kyle that they must kill both Oziel and his wife to protect their secret."
to
"Smyth alleges she heard Lyle tell Erik that they must kill both Oziel and his wife to protect their secret." [[Special:Contributions/128.240.225.14|128.240.225.14]] ([[User talk:128.240.225.14|talk]]) 12:35, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:PianoDan|PianoDan]] ([[User talk:PianoDan|talk]]) 16:45, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

== Dispute over edits/lead by Iimitlessyou ==

Hi, {{u|Iimitlessyou}} instead of edit warring, I'd like you to explain your reasoning aside from making [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Lyle_and_Erik_Menendez&diff=prev&oldid=1250104254 vague and inapropriate] edit summaries. Wikipedia is not [[WP:CENSORED]]. Presumptions about my editing ("pro prosecution editor" and "obviously proven") are a failure to [[WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH]]. The article should reflect the reliable sources, and it is acceptable to include the prosecution's argument. That is my intention. The tapes are one of the few pieces of evidence which were ''not'' hearsay and a key element of the prosecution.

A number of your edits are unusual. [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Lyle_and_Erik_Menendez&diff=prev&oldid=1250041650 Here] you trimmed  all mention of the fact the brothers confessed to premeditating the murder, from both lead ''AND the body''. That is inexplicable to the point I do have to wonder about [[WP:CENSORSHIP]], especially given the premeditation was clear in the tapes. I'm going to assume good faith here, and hope you will clarify.

The prosecution argued three main points: motives of hatred and greed, and a fabricated abuse story ("Prosecutors contend that the abuse is a fiction" [https://archive.is/68gbW#selection-2593.0-2593.47 source]). You've tried to trim the lead so no mention of their counter argument is included. There is just no good reason to do this.

I can see very interested in the case, as you've done some heavy editing on the Netflix series article. You'll need to provide some proper explanations/reasoning here and let's discuss them. However, consensus is ultimately determined by what the [[WP:RS]] say. Thanks. [[User:Zenomonoz|Zenomonoz]] ([[User talk:Zenomonoz|talk]]) 00:03, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 9 October 2024 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Lyle and Erik Menendez|answered=yes}}
In the second paragraph, change "The confession later lead to their arrest." to "The confession later led to their arrest." [[User:Nuclearpinguino|Nuclearpinguino]] ([[User talk:Nuclearpinguino|talk]]) 02:33, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:{{done}} [[User:Zenomonoz|Zenomonoz]] ([[User talk:Zenomonoz|talk]]) 02:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

== Major misrepresentation of source ==

I'm refraining from intervening on limitlessyou to avoid edit warring. In this [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Lyle_and_Erik_Menendez&diff=prev&oldid=1250210066 edit] limitlessyou added: {{tq|"Erik's prosecutor, Lester Kuriyama, also ''theorized that Erik's confusion about his sexual orientation suggested that José's alleged molestation was consensual''"}}.

This is not in [https://archive.is/jpUPu the source]. The prosecutor '''never''' suggested this. The source states: {{tq|Lester Kuriyama suggested that Erik Menendez is gay, and that his sexual orientation--not molestation by his father--fed the family friction that led to the killings .... if Erik Menendez is gay, Kuriyama said, that would explain how he could have described for jurors various sex acts that he testified his father forced him to perform}}. He did not mean that acts between Erik and his father ever occurred, nor did he say anything about consent. The prosecution was arguing the claims of abuse were falsified.

Needs a revert asap given the article is receiving north of 100,000 views per day. [[User:Zenomonoz|Zenomonoz]] ([[User talk:Zenomonoz|talk]]) 05:28, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:{{u|Iimitlessyou}}, you need to revert your edit. [[User:Zenomonoz|Zenomonoz]] ([[User talk:Zenomonoz|talk]]) 05:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
::I [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Lyle_and_Erik_Menendez&diff=prev&oldid=1250239683 added] a {{failed verification}} tag to Imitlessyou's made-up claim the prosecution suggested Erik was molested consensually. Imitlessyou immediately [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Lyle_and_Erik_Menendez&diff=prev&oldid=1250241761 deleted it]. Disruptive editor not here to build an encylopedia. [[User:Zenomonoz|Zenomonoz]] ([[User talk:Zenomonoz|talk]]) 07:50, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

== Protected edit request on 9 October 2024 ==

{{edit fully-protected|Lyle and Erik Menendez|answered=yes}}
This might not be super nessesary but please change the "pp" template to "Edit fully-protected" for people to know that this is admin-only protected as as of now it says "semi protected" which is pretty misleading. Thanks '''''Warm Regards''''', [[User:Miminity|Miminity]] ([[User talk:Miminity|Talk?]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Miminity|me contribs]]) 12:29, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:@[[User:Miminity|Miminity]] it is displaying the 'F' lock for me. Can you check again? "Edit fully-protected" template is meant for new sections on the talk page of fully protected article when requesting edits to be made on the article. [[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 13:16, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
::I don't know why it is the semi one is on it earlier. But, yeah the edit fully protected is an edit request, I just look it up but thanks anyway. '''''Warm Regards''''', [[User:Miminity|Miminity]] ([[User talk:Miminity|Talk?]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Miminity|me contribs]]) 13:26, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
:::Likely it was cached for you, and now the cache is cleared. [[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 13:45, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

== Protected edit request on 9 October 2024 (2) ==

{{edit fully-protected|Lyle and Erik Menendez|answered=yes}}
Request to change citation 69 from cite web to cite AV media, to make it clear to our readers we are referencing a video clip, and to include a timestamp in the video clip to support the relevant quote in the article. That video clip is one hour and forty-six minutes long, for the convenience of our readers, a timestamp should be included, so our readers don't have to go hunting for it themselves. Per [[WP:HOWCITE]] – ''This information is included in order to identify the source, assist readers in finding it, and indicate the place in the source where the information is to be found''. Thanks.
:<nowiki><ref>{{cite AV media |people=Pamela Bozanich (Los Angeles Deputy District Attorney) |date=December 1993 |publication-date=June 19, 2020 |title=87-CA v. Menendez: OPJ: Lyle Menendez Jury Instructions |type=Video |url=https://www.courttv.com/title/87-ca-v-menendez-opj-lyle-menendez-jury-instructions/ |access-date=June 1, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210602220137/https://www.courttv.com/title/87-ca-v-menendez-opj-lyle-menendez-jury-instructions/ |archive-date=June 2, 2021 |time=1:12:23 |publisher=[[Court TV]]}}</ref></nowiki> [[User:Isaidnoway|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:blue"> ''Isaidnoway'' </b>]][[User talk:Isaidnoway|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:#03B54F">''(talk)''</b>]] 00:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
::{{done}} as requested. Thanks for providing the long cite [[User:Star Mississippi|<span style="color:#be33ff;">Star</span>]] [[User talk:Star Mississippi|<span style="color:#ff33da;">Mississippi</span>]] 02:08, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
:::This is [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Iimitlessyou may have introduced WP:CITOGENESIS in 2021 which made it's way into mainstream media|on the admin noticeboard]] and is potentially [[WP:UNDUE]]. It's not mentioned in any RS until recently, because it was not an "argument" made in the jury trial, but a query over definitions which occurred during discussion of ''jury instructions'' (not before jury). I would favour this being re-included if it were clarified in context via secondary sources, but it was questionably framed by Wiki editor Imitlessyou, who did not use a source, and then this particular framing appears to have been repeated verbatim in a few very recent secondary sources. This type of quote mining is persuasive to readers who are unfamiliar with lawyers definitional disputes, but it was likely never mentioned in any of the RS sources (even books very sympathetic to the brothers) for a practical reason. [[User:Zenomonoz|Zenomonoz]] ([[User talk:Zenomonoz|talk]]) 02:27, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

== Protected edit request on 9 October 2024 (3) ==

[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Lyle_and_Erik_Menendez&diff=prev&oldid=1250210066 Here] Imitlessyou modified a sentence to read: {{tq|"The prosecution argued that there was no evidence the photographs were taken by Jose, ''despite them being documented and kept by Kitty''"}}. The cited [https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2005/09/07/0355863.pdf source] does not say they were {{tq|"documented and kept by kitty"}} on page 12508 nor elsewhere in the source. Also looks like POV pushing language.

Imitlessyou also deleted {{tq|"the rest of the film roll showed the photos were taken at a children's birthday party"}} from the end of the sentence.

[[User:Zenomonoz|Zenomonoz]] ([[User talk:Zenomonoz|talk]]) 03:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

:It may be useful to retain the ninth court [https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2005/09/07/0355863.pdf source] that Imitlessyou cited, however, if this type of source is allowed (it seems non-primary as it is from 2005 court of appeals?) [[User:Zenomonoz|Zenomonoz]] ([[User talk:Zenomonoz|talk]]) 03:16, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

== Protected edit request on 10 October 2024  ==

{{Edit fully-protected|answered=yes}}

<!--Don't remove anything above this line.-->
Change the wikilink for Ian Brennan to [[Ian Brennan (writer)|Ian Brennan]] (located in the notes section). The current link is pointing to the disambiguation page. [[User:Jolly1253|Jolly1253]] ([[User talk:Jolly1253|talk]]) 03:19, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
<!--Don't remove anything below this line-->
:{{re|Jolly1253}} {{done}}. Thanks for the catch. [[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 04:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)