View source for Talk:Manipur State Constitution Act 1947

{{Old AfD multi |date=25 November 2020 |result='''keep''' |page=Manipur State Constitution Act 1947}}
{{info| 
'''Page views of this article over the last 90 days:'''<br />
{{ PageViews graph |90|Manipur State Constitution Act 1947|en.wikipedia.org }}
}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start|1=
{{WikiProject Politics|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Law|importance=mid}}
}}
{{Meitei script needed}}

== Added proper references ==

Hello {{ping|Luwanglinux}}, I have added proper references as you had asked. Also added proper title in the cited reference.[[User:ChunnuBhai|ChunnuBhai]] ([[User talk:ChunnuBhai|talk]]) 14:31, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
{{re|ChunnuBhai}} the link you provided shows nothing about this constitution being obsolete from the King signing Merger Agreement.By the year 1949.the legal right of the state was already transfered to Council of ministers appointed under  the dejure constitution.also stop removing content from citation.Beside there is high debate of Manipur merger agreement as forceful annnexation.India did not have a legal constitution in 1949.So read the constitution properly first before trying to vandalise it.[[Manipur State Constitution Act 1947]] was legally in practise since 1947 itself [[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯡ</span><span style="color: darkred"></span>]] ([[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color: green">ꯆꯥ</span>]]) 14:39, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

:*I have used the phrase "effectively obsolete" not "obsolete".
* I have included the sentence "However various separatist groups have disputed the Merger Agreement." which covers what you are  saying.
* I have added the correct title in the citation. If you are adding whole text in the title, it makes the page ugly and citation unreadable.[[User:ChunnuBhai|ChunnuBhai]] ([[User talk:ChunnuBhai|talk]]) 14:48, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
:: This article is only about the [[Manipur State Constitution Act 1947]] not Manipur Merger Agreement,what you added is totally in contrast with the article.
::: You yourself have reffered to Merger of Manipur into India in the earlier edit. My edit is in continuation of the same. [[User:ChunnuBhai|ChunnuBhai]] ([[User talk:ChunnuBhai|talk]]) 15:13, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
::{{re|ChunnuBhai}} Read the article properly this article is about law and constitution,not seperatism or manipur merger agreement.you can add those in Manipur merger agreement article.Thanks
{{Cite web|title=(PDF) Annexation of Manipur as the 19th State of India: The Status of the Territory of Manipur in International Law since 1949|url=https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340294032_Annexation_of_Manipur_as_the_19th_State_of_India_The_Status_of_the_Territory_of_Manipur_in_International_Law_since_1949|access-date=2020-10-29|website=ResearchGate|language=en}}

:* The Act is not inforce right now, the Merger Agreement, lead to the Act becoming in-operational. The edit I made is in line with current status of the Act.[[User:ChunnuBhai|ChunnuBhai]] ([[User talk:ChunnuBhai|talk]]) 16:30, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
:* You or Me is not the one to judge the validity of the act.But seriously stop vandalising content byadding unrelated topic which is already removed giving due reason[[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯡ</span><span style="color: darkred"></span>]] ([[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color: green">ꯆꯥ</span>]]) 16:40, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
::* Please stop referring to my edits as Vandalism. and read [[WP:VANDAL]] to understand what constitutes vandalism on wikipedia.[[User:ChunnuBhai|ChunnuBhai]] ([[User talk:ChunnuBhai|talk]]) 16:46, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

== RfC on the edit disagreement between [[User:Luwanglinux]] and me  ==

{{closed rfc top}}

[[User:Luwanglinux]] has been reverting my edits on the article for reasons I do not agree with. also threatening me on my talk page, while I have tried to engage constructively. Request for other editors to comment and resolve the edit disagreements.[[User:ChunnuBhai|ChunnuBhai]] ([[User talk:ChunnuBhai|talk]]) 16:50, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

:[[User:ChunnuBhai|ChunnuBhai]] ([[User talk:ChunnuBhai|talk]]) let others editors come in but seriously why do you want to keep adding Manipur Merger Agreement which was already removed giving proper reason from the content as it is totally unrelated with this constitution.On the contrary Merger agreement is said to be a violation of this dejure law as claimed by experts[[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯡ</span><span style="color: darkred"></span>]] ([[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color: green">ꯆꯥ</span>]]) 17:30, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Please stop pushing [[POV]] by claiming "Experts say" something without giving references. Also there are many examples on wikipedia where, the successor legal instrument is mentioned in respective articles. e.g. [[Indian_Independence_Act_1947]] mentions Article 395 of the Constitution of India and in Article 221 of the Constitution of Pakistan of 1956, [[Article 370 of the Constitution of India]] has sections on 2019 Actions.  What I added is not unrelated to the current article. [[User:ChunnuBhai|ChunnuBhai]] ([[User talk:ChunnuBhai|talk]]) 17:35, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
* I have given proper reference with reliable source from the journal of legal activist from Manipur.please look in above sections.[[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯡ</span><span style="color: darkred"></span>]] ([[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color: green">ꯆꯥ</span>]]) 17:41, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
:: As per [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#ResearchGate]], ResearchGate is not considered a reliable source. Reason, it is self published and not peer reviewed research.[[User:ChunnuBhai|ChunnuBhai]] ([[User talk:ChunnuBhai|talk]]) 17:49, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
::Seriously that content has been reviewed also the author<ref>{{Cite web|title=Laishram Malem Mangal|url=https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=wvJP3OsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=ao|access-date=2020-10-29|website=scholar.google.com}}</ref> is not any layman dude it really is line with [[Wp:RS]].just google it if you wanna see.As for your info I never added that link in the main article but just on this talkpage to come to a consensus with this conflict[[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯡ</span><span style="color: darkred"></span>]] ([[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color: green">ꯆꯥ</span>]]) 17:54, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
:: The conclict is only about you reverting my legitimate edit.[[User:ChunnuBhai|ChunnuBhai]] ([[User talk:ChunnuBhai|talk]]) 18:00, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
:: The conflict is about you adding unrelated topic categories even removing quote from content.I have explained in detail.since the edit was revised by an admin.I hope you understand.[[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯡ</span><span style="color: darkred"></span>]] ([[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color: green">ꯆꯥ</span>]]) 18:11, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
:{{replyto|ChunnuBhai}} Please see [[WP:RFCNEUTRAL]]. Your RfC statement, whilst fairly brief, is decidedly not neutral. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 14:20, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Redrose64}}, Thank for the reply. i will close this RfC and open a new RfC with precise question in neutral voice.[[User:ChunnuBhai|ChunnuBhai]] ([[User talk:ChunnuBhai|talk]]) 15:35, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
{{closed rfc bottom}}

{{reflist-talk}}

== Removing quote from Wp:Rs reference ==
[[User:ChunnuBhai]] has been repeatedly adding unrelated topic and also repeatedly removing quote from reference.
{{talkquote|Whereas it is expedient to enact a law for the governance of the Manipur State, His Highness the Maharajah of Manipur is pleased to enact as follows: Chapter 11. Title: This Act shall be called the Manipur State Constitution Act, 1947. 2. Extent and Application: This Act shall extend to the whole of the Manipur State inclusive of the Hill Areas saving that it shall not apply in any matter where a specific reservation of powers is made to any Authority in the Hills under the provisions of the Manipur State Hill (Administration) Regulation, 1947. 3. Government of the State by His Highness the Maharajah: The territories for the time being and hereafter vested in the Maharajah are governed by and in the name of the Maharajah. All right, authority and jurisdiction, which appertain or are incidental to the Government of such territories, are exercisable by the Maharajah subject to the provision of this Act. 4. Succession: Succession to the throne shall be governed by the law of Primogeniture provided that the heir must be the legitimate son of a marriage recognized by the Council of Ministers. In the event of failure of heirs in the direct male line, His Highness the Maharajah shall, after consultation with the Council of Ministers and the Assembly, designate his heir. 5. Attainment of Majority: The Maharajah or his heir shall be taken to attain majority at the age of 21 years. 6. Council or Regency:a.   Where by reason of the Maharajah being a minor or where by reason of any mental defect or grave bodily sickness as a result of which the Maharaja becomes permanently incapable of exercising his powers, the Council of Ministers shall take steps to set up a Council of Regency which shall exercise those powers in the State and shall continue in office for such time as the Council may determine. b.   Notwithstanding the provision of Sub-Section (a) above, the Maharajah in consultation with the Council of Ministers may, at any time or for any reason, which may appear suitable, set up Council of Regency to exercise his functions. c.    A Council of Regency set up under Sub-Section (a) and (b) above, may comprise of one or more persons as may seem desirable. The Regent or Council of Regency shall before taking office be required to take an Oath before the State Assembly to be loyal to the State and to observe faithfully the Constitution and Laws}}  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Luwanglinux|Luwanglinux]] ([[User talk:Luwanglinux#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Luwanglinux|contribs]]) 17:00, 29 October 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: With due respect you have added a LOT of text as quote. If any user wants to read this much text, he will click on the link itself and read it for himself. [[User:ChunnuBhai|ChunnuBhai]] ([[User talk:ChunnuBhai|talk]]) 17:04, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
:[[re|ChunnuBhai]] Still you should not remove the whole quote[[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯡ</span><span style="color: darkred"></span>]] ([[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color: green">ꯆꯥ</span>]]) 17:08, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

==Citation disagreement==
{{u|Kautilya3}} is telling citation from an archive.org is unreliable source.an admin help is requested,I have not found any wikirules which state archive.org is unreliable source.[[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯡ</span><span style="color: blue"></span>]] ([[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color: green">ꯆꯥ</span>]]) 14:42, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
: archive.org is an archiving <s>source</s> site. It is not a publisher. Whether you state archive.org or not makes no difference to the reliability of the source. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 14:49, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
::Lol seriously do wikipedia not accept any sources without publisher as reliable source,what made you consider this a reliable source[https://www.constitutionofindia.net/historical_constitutions/manipur_state_constitution_act__1947_1st%20January%201947][[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯡ</span><span style="color: blue"></span>]] ([[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color: green">ꯆꯥ</span>]]) 14:59, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
::: I suggest you quit making snarky comments. If you do not like Wikipedia policies, you are welcome to leave. Nobody is forcing you to edit Wikipedia. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 17:50, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

:Archive.org is not a source of any description. If you include archive.org links, the source is the website it is a copy of.  [[User:Noq|noq]] ([[User talk:Noq|talk]]) 17:59, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

=== Wangam Somorjit ===
I will put down another comment here for the record. 

For this citation that 
[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Manipur_State_Constitution_Act_1947&diff=next&oldid=990794124 Luwanglinux added], claiming it to be published by "Waba Publications & Advanced Research Consortium", and the author claimed to be a "notable google scholar", Google Scholar [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=somorjit+manipur&btnG= knows nothing] about the book or any citations to it. There are no publications of the author listed there. The "Advanced Research Consortium", which gave it web address as "arecom.org" is apparently that of a [https://web.archive.org/web/20080222142913/http://arecom.org/ Mexican organisation]. There is indeed an [https://www.indiangoslist.com/ngo-address/advanced-research-consortium-manipur-in-imphal-manipur_MN-2010-0034021 "Advanced Research Consortium" in Manipur], but its record in research is entirely unreported. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 19:29, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
::You are too much this book is published under [[ISBN]],published in [[Imphal]],printed at [[Assam]] and the author[https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Manipur/DnhTDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0] is a Master degree holder in Manipur history from [[Manipur University]],are you the one who will decide the validity of a publishihg house?.So what if it is Mexican organisation.?.read the book if you want its not written by some mediocre...[[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯡ</span><span style="color: blue"></span>]] ([[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color: green">ꯆꯥ</span>]]) 04:11, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
::: Once again, you are back to making snarky comments. You can also decide whether sources are reliable when you read and understand Wikipedia policies. If you don't like my decisions, you are welcome to take it to [[WP:RSN]].
::: Master's degrees don't make any one a reliable source. See [[WP:SCHOLARSHIP]]. The credentials of the publisher need to be checked. And this particular publisher, which has the pretensions of a research organisation but seems to be no more than an NGO, gave a fake web address. So it is all the more dubious. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 10:56, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

=== Haorongbam Sudhirkumar Singh  ===
{{U|Luwanglinux}}, You have [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Manipur_State_Constitution_Act_1947&diff=992575351&oldid=992534511 deleted] information sourced Sudhirkumar Singh's PhD thesis to the effect that the MSCA had lapsed with the merger agreement. You offered no explanation for this. Even though we don't normally give high credibility to PhD theses in general, this thesis was carried out at [[Jawaharlal Nehru University]], a top-rated institution of India for social sciences. The author is now a professor at Manipur University [https://www.manipuruniv.ac.in/index.php?/department/history-department/faculty-members-3-2-2-2-2-2-2-2] [http://e-pao.net/epPageExtractor.asp?src=education.NEIHA_North_East_India_History_Association_and_Me_By_H_Sudhir.html] and a credible historian. So I am afraid you cannot simply delete it. This seems to be an instance of [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]]. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 10:43, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
::{{U|Kautilya3}},You are interpreting the thesis in the way you like also you should know that ''Dewan'' abolishment is not related with Manipur State Constitution Act 1947.Dewan is related with [[British Raj]] you seem to have little knowledge about this act better stop imposing your idea without solid reference,I removed it because you put it with the expiration date which contradict with the various sources found.Here is what you added
:::{{tq|15 October 1949<ref>{{harvp|Sudhirkumar Singh, Socio-religious and Political Movements in Modern Manipur|2011|pp=146–147}}: "Manipur State Constitution Act, 1947 lapsed, coalition ministry in the state ceased to function, the legislature dissolved and the post of Dewan abolished with effect from 15 October 1949."</ref>}}

:::: My "little knowledge", as it might be, is not your concern. You have deleted a well-sourced piece of information from the article, where a professor of history at Manipur University has stated that the act "lapsed" precisely 15 October 1949. You can only delete it by appealing to equal or better quality sources as per Wikipedia policies. Ranting about my knowledge is not going to be of any help to you. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 15:56, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
::::::I have given you the reason for deletion with many reference,I also pointed out dissolving Dewan post is not related with this act as you quoted {{tq|the post of Dewan abolished with effect from 15 October 1949}} this fail to prove your claim of the act being dissolved on 15th oct 1949.With due respect this act was enacted by the de jure supreme ruler of Manipur in 1947 ,there is a great difference between de jure and de facto rule in politics as stated by experts[[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯡ</span><span style="color: blue"></span>]] ([[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color: green">ꯆꯥ</span>]]) 16:30, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== It may also be noted that British rule ended in Manipur in 14th August 1947 ==

{{U|Luwanglinux}}, that is a ridiculous kind of sentence that does not belong in any kind of article. Trust me, the British rule ended all over the Indian subcontinent on that day. There is nothing to be especially "noted". -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 16:00, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
::{{U|Kautilya3}},I don't trust you.Even [[Pakistan]] and [[Myanmar]] were included in British India.Indian subcontinent and the idea of India nation differ so greatly.Manipur got independence from British on 14th august 1947 but India got independence from British on 15th august 1947 its all fact.So give it a rest.[[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯡ</span><span style="color: blue"></span>]] ([[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color: green">ꯆꯥ</span>]]) 16:09, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
::: {{U|Luwanglinux}}, Ok, please provide [[WP:RS]] for these statements. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 16:23, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
::{{U|Kautilya3}} I have given newspaper [ https://www.imphaltimes.com/news/itemlist/date/2019/8/14] link Manipur celebrate independence day on 14th august every year,what more proof do you need?.[[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯡ</span><span style="color: blue"></span>]] ([[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color: green">ꯆꯥ</span>]]) 16:36, 6 December 2020 
(UTC)
::: Manipuris might celebrate it on 1 January for all I care. The statement is clear, and the RS for it should be equally clear. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 16:38, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
::::Hmmm ok here is another source<ref>{{harvp|Dr Th. Suresh Singh,The Endless Kabaw Valley British Created Visious Cycle of Manipur, Burma and India|2014|page=259}}"British Created Visious Cycle of Manipur, Burma and India Dr Th. Suresh Singh. extent after the war. ... What is the position of Manipur between the period British left and merging to India i.e. between 14/8/1947 and 14/10/1949? " </ref> [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=British+left+Manipur+on] see this [https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/JAIR_Journal_of_International_Relations/6PvoDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Manipur+got+independence+from+British+on+14th+August+1947&pg=PA54&printsec=frontcover]

::::: The first link you give is a Google Book search. The first source that pops up is the CIRCA pamphlet, which states ([https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oKZoDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA23#v=onepage&q&f=false p.23]):
::::: {{talkquote|Under the Act, two independent Dominions known as India and Pakistan were set up with effect from August 15, 1947. ''Along with that'', Manipur also became technically and legally independent from the British Crown by virtue of the Section 7(1)(b) of the Indian Independence Act, 1947.}}
::::: This makes extremely clear that the independence of Manipur was ''part of'' the independence of India, not some separate event. This is quite the opposite if the special claims you are making. The source you picked is some propaganda booklet, hardly a reliable source. And the second link is also not a HISTRS, published in 2014 in a journal on "International Relations". For all you know, the author is just replicating the current Manipuri practice of celebrating it on the 14th August. The present day Maharaja critiqued this practice in the newspaper link you provided:
::::: {{talkquote|Addressing on the function as the Chief Guest titular king of Manipur Leishemba Sanajaoba reminded the history of how Manipur became Independent from the British on the ''intervening midnight of 14 and 15 August 1947'' [which is exactly the time that India celebrated independence] and added that today's celebration of Independence Day will make the people aware about the history of Manipur. ... He further said that the intervening midnight of August 14 where Manipur became independent from the British empire doesn't have any hoisting of flag and added that the flag was hoisted on 15 August or 29th of Thawan of the Manipuri lunar calendar around 7.10 in the morning of 1947. }}
::::: Finally, whether it is the 14th or 15th doesn't make a damn bit of difference. You are just chasing red herrings and wasting every one's time. What does this have to do with the Manipur State Constitution anyway? That sentence in the lead is still [[WP:UNDUE]]. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 18:05, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
:::::: Hmm its you quite wasting time and energy on this,is the reference from book also a pamphlet..the line in the lead is quoted from two lead newspaper of Manipur and Nagaland.Also the fact that Manipur celebrate independence day every year on this said day..peace[[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯡ</span><span style="color: blue"></span>]] ([[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color: green">ꯆꯥ</span>]]) 02:12, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
::::::: Yes, the CIRCA booklet is a "pamphlet". It is arguing a position. But it is arguing it based on solid facts, which are thoroughly researched. Newspaper journalists don't have either time or energy to do any such research. They can only be depended on for "news", what they see and report. That is the [[WP:NEWSORG|policy]]. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 14:26, 7 December 2020 (UTC)


{{reflist-talk}}

== Copyright problem removed ==

[[File:Copyright-problem.svg|32px]] Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://www.jstor.org/stable/42748891. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, ''unless'' it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see [[WP:COPYRIGHT#Using copyrighted work from others|"using copyrighted works from others"]] if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or [[WP:Donating copyrighted materials|"donating copyrighted materials"]] if you are.)

For [[WP:Copyrights|legal reasons]], we cannot accept [[WP:Copyrights|copyrighted]] text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of ''information'', and, if allowed under [[fair use]], may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and [[WP:CS|referenced]] properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original ''or'' [[WP:Plagiarism|plagiarize]] from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our [[WP:NFC#Text|guideline on non-free text]] for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations '''very seriously''', and persistent violators '''will''' be [[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]] from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. <!-- Template:Cclean --> [[User:Sennecaster|Sennecaster]] ([[User talk:Sennecaster|talk]]) 19:41, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

== References ==

The references, when clicked lead to nowhere. A large number of previous edits are not viewable anymore. [[User:TrangaBellam|TrangaBellam]] ([[User talk:TrangaBellam|talk]]) 17:29, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
: See the previous section on copyright violation. The source is a journal paper mentioned above.
: On another note, please note that the Maharaja had no administrative powers from 1891 to 1947. The British appointed an administrator as the President of the Manipur State Darbar ("PMSD" in your sources), who held the reins. The Maharaja apparently devoted himself to social causes.<ref>{{citation |first=M. Sajjad |last=Hassan |title=Explaining Manipur’s Breakdown and Mizoram’s Peace: the State and Identities in North East India |publisher=London School of Economics |date=February 2006 |url=http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/28150/ |p=7}}</ref> That is probably how he ended up founding the NHMM. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 21:45, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
:: It is also unclear to me whether the Manipuris for agitating for "democracy" or just agitating against the British rule. When the so-called democratic government was installed, the Maharaja just appointed his own brother as the Chief Minister and that was apparently ok for Irabot's party. The Manipuris are royalists ''par excellence''. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 21:53, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
::: {{tq|and that was apparently ok for Irabot's party}} - Source needed because on my reading of Irabot's pamphlets/speeches, I don't agree.
::: I don't believe that Manipuris of the mid-1940s can be classified as a monolith — that was a time of intense factionalism among political parties who worked towards a largely-common goal but disagreed on vital specifics including deference to the royal house, accession etc. [[User:TrangaBellam|TrangaBellam]] ([[User talk:TrangaBellam|talk]]) 09:55, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
:::: It is in your own citation:
:::: {{talkquote|A coalition government led by the Praja Shanti Party, which was supported by the Krishak Sabha and the Hill representatives, came into existence.{{sfnp|Indrakumar, Colonialism and Movement for Democracy|2015|p=69}}}}
:::: I admit it is possible that the Manipuris of mid-1940s are more liberal than the Manipuris of today. But what I read from the Manipur scholars today is pretty uniformly royalist. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 12:23, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
::::: The support was highly conditional and strategic. In hindsight, it was naive. I will note the minute details over the relevant article.
::::: The adulation for the royals is ''largely'' a post-colonial phenomenon. [[User:TrangaBellam|TrangaBellam]] ([[User talk:TrangaBellam|talk]]) 08:47, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

== Backgrounnd ==
The lead in the background as per this revision [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Manipur_State_Constitution_Act_1947&oldid=1247492709] bring only one POV that Manipur hill areas were ruled independently from the jurisdiction of Majaharaja without any relation to the Maharaja. But Aitson treaty record itself clearly mentioned that the hill administration was done by President of the Durbar in the name of the Maharaja.<ref>{{citation |editor-first=C. U. |editor-last=Aitchison |title=A Collection of Treaties, Engagements and Sanads Relating to India and Neighbouring Countries |volume=XII |location=Calcutta |publisher=Government of India, Central Publication Branch |year=1931 |url=https://archive.org/details/dli.ernet.235895 |via=archive.org |pages=107|quote=After the suppression of the Thado Kuki rebellion in 1919 .. the method of administration in the Manipur Hill areas was completely changed. Four Sub-Divisions were formed, three of which are administered by members of the Assam Provincial Civil Service lent to the State, while the fourth is directly under the President of the Darbar, who now administers the whole of the Hills in the name of the Maharaja.}}</ref> [[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">&#x1f432;</span> <span style="color: blue">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:green">ꯋꯥ ꯍꯥꯏꯐꯝ (talk) </span>]]</sup> 16:53, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

:That is a separate issue. My objection was that you were doing an "[[WP:UNDUE]] expansion of background". This article is about the 1947 constitution, and the background you add has to be what is needed as context to this topic. Or, you need to find sources on the constitution that bring in the additional information you think it is relevant.
:As for administering "in the name of the Maharaja", it was mentioned right in the beginning that the Maharaja was the "nominal head of state". You understand what is meant by "nominal", right? 
:Finally, you have been here long enough to know that, when an edit is contested, [[WP:CONSENSUS]] is required before you can reinstate it. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 18:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

:: ''' The hill regions, populated by Naga and Kuki tribes, were taken out of the jurisdiction of the Maharaja and administered by the President using Assam regulations''' this statement show POV that hill region were under administrative rule of Assam not Manipur, this is the part where this contestation come.

::*{{tq|After a long debate in the British Parliament, it was decided that Manipur should not be annexed by the colonial power but be maintained as a Princely State under the indirect rule which allowed minimum investment in material and human resource by the British. Manipur was one of the last small kingdoms to join the list of Princely states under British Raj}} <ref>{{Cite journal |last=Mutuwa |first=Miranda Bembem |date=2018 |title=Colonialism and the Princely State of Manipur: Creation of Modern Urban Space in North East India |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/26906278 |journal=Proceedings of the Indian History Congress |volume=79 |pages=448–456 |issn=2249-1937}}</ref>

:: British continued to indirectly rule Manipur as a state for a long time and it did not change after  1891 also. This is the reason Manipur State Constitution Act 1947 was enacted in 1947. So, mixing up with Assam regulation as if part of Manipur territory (hill regions)  were under administrative rule of Assam state without any relation with Manipur need [[WP:CONSENSUS]] before it is reinstated.

:: Also, full administrative the power of the Mahajara can't be exercised not only in the hills ,restriction of rules of Maharaja is in the valley as well, as per some scholar like Gangmumei, British felt a need to protect the hill tribes from slavery tradition enforced by Maharaja and colonial divide and rule policy, British did frame rules for management of hill tribes without slavery system of the Maharaja in 1935 which policy is reflected in Manipur State Constitution Act 1947 [[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">&#x1f432;</span> <span style="color: blue">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:green">ꯋꯥ ꯍꯥꯏꯐꯝ (talk) </span>]]</sup> 03:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

::: You are always welcome to challenge the existing content that doesn't sound right to you. But the way to do so is to check the cited sources and see whether they have been accurately summarised. If that checks out, then you can hunt for other sources. I suggest you stop using the "POV" term until you are sure that there are multiple POVs in the sources. (Sorry to be preaching!)
::: In this particular case, the Aitchison volumes are official Government of India documents. So they are [[WP:PRIMARY]] sources. So you can't use them to counter contemporary scholarly sources. See this paper to understand how British representations of "indirect rule" often differ from the reality.
:::* {{citation |first=James |last=Onley |title=The Raj Reconsidered: British India’s Informal Empire and Spheres of Influence in Asia and Africa |journal=Asian Affairs |volume=11 |number=1 |date=March 2009 |url=https://socialsciences.exeter.ac.uk/iais/downloads/Onley_Raj_Reconsidered.pdf |ref={{sfnref|Onley, The Raj Reconsidered|2009}}}}
::: This is not about Manipur, but the British Raj in general. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 08:28, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
{{od}}
Here is the system of administration of Manipur described by Sudhirkumar Singh:
{{talkquote|However, the state's administration was made to be carried out under the administrative scheme christened as 'Manipur under the British Management 1907' under which was constituted a Durbar initially consisting of eight members but later on five members with the Maharaja as its president and a British officer of the Eastern Bengal and Assam cadre as the vice-president. The Durbar members were categorized as the ordinary members (held departments) and additional members (without departments). The 1907 scheme was modified in 1910 under which the raja was empowered to appoint and dismiss the Durbar [members] only with the prior consent of the Political Agent. It was later modified in 1916 under which the raja ceased to be the Durbar president. ''The schemes were nothing but a well-designed administrative arrangement under the overall colonial supervision. It was a carefully monitored system of colonial administration.'' The rules of administration were framed by the Assam Governor and approved by the Government of India. Under the administrative scheme, the Durbar was the highest executive body to administer the state affairs. ''Even during his presidentship, the Maharaja could do nothing without consulting the Durbar''. He was just outwardly decorated to exercise veto to any Durbar resolution, but, if so, reasons thereof of his veto should be furnished to the Assam Governor. It was a clear indicative of decorated 'hollow crown'. In the next step, he was removed from the Durbar presidentship. ''The Governor of Assam, as an agent of the Crown, [had] the final say and his decision was binding on both the Durbar and the Maharaja.''}}
This is not "indirect rule" normally so-called. In the normal indirect rule, there is a Political Agent, who advises the ruler and the ministers on what the British would consider acceptable or not acceptable. But, in Manipur, there was an official appointed for direct administration, called the "President of the Durbar".So, Manipur was not like a normal "princely state". The princely ruler was just a figurehead. He had no authority. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 08:50, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

: {{tq|But, in Manipur, there was an official appointed for direct administration, called the "President of the Durbar".So, Manipur was not like a normal "princely state". The princely ruler was just a figurehead. He had no authority.}} 
: This statement is misleading based on the fact that '''the so called President of the Durbar was initially the Maharaja himself and he had authority though limited as British rule was evident. Manipur was never annexed by British ( declared formally by British that Manipur was not annexed ).[[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">&#x1f432;</span> <span style="color: blue">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:green">ꯋꯥ ꯍꯥꯏꯐꯝ (talk) </span>]]</sup> 02:03, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

: Sudhirkumar Singh also described this indirect rule: {{tq|At the politico-administrative outset, a rigor of deliberations among the colonial policy makers on the political fate of the state, finally concluded to refrain from direct annexation under the British India and instead introduced the rule of British paramountcy. The period of British paramountcy in Manipur can be studied under the two inter-related phases:(a) The Rule of Superintendency 1892-1907. (b) Indirect Native Rule 1907-1947...With the formal coronation of Churachand Singh to the throne in 1907, there began an ''indirect system'' of colonial rule called the native regime under the overall British colonial supervision that continued till the British departure. It was a deliberate colonial policy to ensure the sustenance of the native political system by way of entrusting the direct responsibility of management of the state to the ruler with his supporting native staff members. Under the system, the office of Political Agency was purposively designed as a link between the imperial rule and the native administration...The 1907 scheme was modified in 1910 under which the raja was empowered to appoint and dismiss the Durbar member only with the prior consent of the Political Agent. It was later modified in 1916 under which the raja ceased to be the Durbar president. The schemes were nothing but a well designed administrative arrangement under the overall colonial supervision. It was a carefully monitored system of colonial administration. '''The rules of administration were framed by the Assam Governor and approved by the Government of India. Under the administrative scheme, the Durbar was the highest executive body to administer the state affairs'''.}} 

: It was not only the rules of hill that Governor of Assam made, but the rules of the administration as whole for the state.[[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">&#x1f432;</span> <span style="color: blue">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:green">ꯋꯥ ꯍꯥꯏꯐꯝ (talk) </span>]]</sup> 02:03, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

: {{tq|The Raja as the President of the Durbar was given wide powers. He was in-charge of armed state police and had powers to appoint all 'famnaibas' or title-holders and officials drawing pay of more than Rs.15 a month, and the members of the Cheirap and Panchayat Courts. 12 He had the power of calling any case either pending or disposed off. The five Manipuri members of the Durbar were appointed by the Raja in consultation with the Political Agent but they were removable only with the express consent of the latter. The members of the Durbar were given charges of Jail, Civil Police, Judiciary and forest respectively and these members in turn appointed the employees of their respective departments.13 In 1918, the Raja was awarded K.C.S.I. and was given the title of 'Maharaja'. It would be interesting to note that, throughout the period of colonial rule, the administration of the hill tribes was always under the direct supervision of the Vice President/President, and after 1916 the Durbar as a whole had no jurisdiction over the affairs of the hills. Such a system, the Britishers argued, was to save the hill tribes from the 'long reign of tyranny and oppression perpetrated by the Meitei King. A closer examination of the new system however revealed that the colonial masters were pursuing a policy of 'divide and rule'.}} <ref>{{Cite book |last=Lokendra |first=N. |url=https://books.google.co.in/books?hl=en&lr=&id=6FXEEd2muZoC&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=Colonial+Rule+and+Structural+Transformations+in+Manipur+Valley&|title=The Unquiet Valley: Society, Economy, and Politics of Manipur (1891-1950) |date=1998-01-01 |publisher=Mittal Publications|pp=39-41 |isbn=978-81-7099-696-5 |language=en}}</ref>
:  British indirect rule in Manipur is by formal procedure but their paramountcy is more of a direct rule, that's not the point I argue, Governor of Assam ( making rules of administration was not only representing the Assam Government but the Crown (The Governor of Assam, as an agent of the Crown, made the final say and his decision was binding on both the Durbar and the Maharaja)  as per sources.[[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">&#x1f432;</span> <span style="color: blue">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:green">ꯋꯥ ꯍꯥꯏꯐꯝ (talk) </span>]]</sup> 02:03, 27 September 2024 (UTC)  
{{od}}
The change of wording you have made to say that it was "not annexed" is acceptable to me. If you are proposing further changes, please tell me what. Walls of text are not helpful. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 13:43, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

:Unless we have to add more detail regarding the change in rules of British administration in Manipur, in the background section, its acceptable for now [[User:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:red">&#x1f432;</span> <span style="color: blue">ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Luwanglinux|<span style="color:green">ꯋꯥ ꯍꯥꯏꯐꯝ (talk) </span>]]</sup> 13:53, 29 September 2024 (UTC)



{{reflist-talk}}