View source for Talk:Old Man Murray

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{{Old AfD multi
| date     = January 29 2011
| result   = '''Delete'''
| page     = Old Man Murray
| date2      =  February 22 2011 
| result2    = '''Delete'''
| page2      = Old Man Murray (2nd nomination)
| date3     = March 3 2011
| result3   = '''Recreate'''
| link3     = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2011_March_3#Old_Man_Murray_.28closed.29
| caption3  = DRV
}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|
{{WikiProject Video games|class=C|importance=Low}}
}}
{{archive box|auto=yes}}

== Time to Crate ==

For what it's worth, "Time to crate" is not just a "for example" as noted in the article.  It was the high point of OMM and is the article that everyone in the industry remembers and cites.  If only there were a verifiable source.  [[User:Tempshill|Tempshill]] ([[User talk:Tempshill|talk]]) 18:00, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

: The Gabriel Knight "death of adventure games" theme was also fairly popular, although oddly the current revision of the article only alludes to it; the theme pops up in Wikipedia's own article on [[Gabriel Knight 3]], and is mentioned for example [http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=13978 in this article] from [[Gamasutra]] circa 2007. "''Famously, Old Man Murray’s Erik Wolpaw referred to one of the title’s puzzles as “genuinely deranged”''." -[[User:Ashley Pomeroy|Ashley Pomeroy]] ([[User talk:Ashley Pomeroy|talk]]) 19:18, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

== Propose a recent media coverage/controversy section ==

Considering the amount of attention this page's erroneous, possibly malicious deletion has attracted, wouldn't it be an idea to link back to some of those articles?  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:AnonyGnome|AnonyGnome]] ([[User talk:AnonyGnome|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/AnonyGnome|contribs]]) 06:16, 4 March 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Provided that they're reliable sites, like [http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/04/victory-old-man-murray-is-back-on-wikipedia/ Rock, Paper, Shotgun]. Yes. If you need any help with which sites are considered reliable and which are not, have a look at [[WP:VG/RS]] or drop the links here and I'll go through them. - [[User:X201|X201]] ([[User talk:X201|talk]]) 09:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

:: [http://www.boingboing.net/2011/03/04/did-an-old-grudge-ge.html BoingBoing] covered it today. [[User:Waitak|Waitak]] ([[User talk:Waitak|talk]]) 12:56, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
:: [http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/03/03/1434216/Old-Man-Murray-Entry-Deleted-From-Wikipedia Slashdot discussion here]. [[Special:Contributions/46.116.176.5|46.116.176.5]] ([[User talk:46.116.176.5|talk]]) 13:07, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


This actually would be a bad idea here.  Unless there's better documentation on the grudge between the parties involved, the dispute has nothing to do with OMM itself as a website.  If anything, this scenario would be info for a page (if there was one) about criticism of WP, but I can't seem to find a good point for it. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-size:x-small;">ASEM</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 13:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

:Rock, Paper, Shotgun have published another article on OMM. The best way to describe it is that its a meta reference. [http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/04/the-remarkable-notability-of-old-man-murray/] - [[User:X201|X201]] ([[User talk:X201|talk]]) 14:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

::The best thing to do is take ''that'' article, and any other articles from RS's that , while discussing the notability issue here, give commentary on their impressions of OMM, and make a "Legacy" section, providing selected dropquotes from the RPS article and others. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-size:x-small;">ASEM</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 14:38, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

:::The new article, at the very least, obviously requires some mention, as it's an excellent explanation of OMM's ongoing importance in game journalism and the industry as a whole, the whole sorry <s>tie-died wikiadmin circle-jerk</s> mess that resulted in its deletion should probably end up on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notability_in_Wikipedia#Controversy, i suppose, rather than being completely swept under the carpet<ref>{{cite web|url=http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SchuminWeb&diff=next&oldid=416798897|title=Deletion of reasonable and civil question |publisher=wikipedia |date=2011-03-2 |accessdate=2011-03-04}}</ref>.
::::In the revision history for this article, I added a section on the controversy. Perhaps that content could be added into the section you linked to above? --[[User:Omnitographer|Omnitographer]] ([[User talk:Omnitographer|talk]]) 03:22, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
:::::As I mention above, the issue of the deletion of this article is not significant to the topic of Old Man Murray the website.  It may be something with controversy of Wikipedia, with Chet or Erik and their past and/or ongoing feud, but not to this article.  Now, all these sources that came about due to this that provide commentary on OMM and its legacy, like the RPS article today, all should be included in the legacy section.  But we shouldn't mention anything about this deletion issue here. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-size:x-small;">ASEM</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 03:27, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Deletionists make me angry. Keep this page up! -[[User:Eagleapex|Eagleapex]] ([[User talk:Eagleapex|talk]]) 15:10, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
:How did this article actually get deleted in the first place? The AFD page was 90% '''Keep'''. What admin/editor completely fell asleep on that one? [[Special:Contributions/71.237.250.168|71.237.250.168]] ([[User talk:71.237.250.168|talk]]) 04:12, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
::"Consensus" can have special meaning for special people on wikipedia, alas. [[Special:Contributions/121.45.228.201|121.45.228.201]] ([[User talk:121.45.228.201|talk]]) 04:34, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== "The Notability of Old Man Murray" ==
10 seconds of Google searching has come up with sources that I believe meet WP:RS, but as one of the un-initiated, I don't know what to do with them. Someone more experienced will have to deal with putting them to good use.

The first is a article entitled "Interaction and Narrative" by Michael Mateas (see: http://users.soe.ucsc.edu/~michaelm/publications.html for bona fides) and Andrew Stern at UCSC which Google Scholar indicates is formally cited by 8 other papers, and is casually mentioned by 101 articles. The article is part of the following publication: The Game Design Reader: A Rules of Play Anthology, edited by Katie Salen and Eric Zimmerman, pages 642-669, Boston, MA, USA: MIT Press. 2005

The second is The Designer's Notebook: Bad Game Designer, No Twinkie! VI By Ernest Adams, published in Gamasutra June 3, 2005 (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20050603/adams_01.shtml)see bottom of page 4.

The third is "bloggers such as ... “Old Man Murray” are among the most respected commentators and journalists." from "Critical education in an interactive age", author Kurt D. Squire (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=author%3AKurt+author%3AD+author%3ASquire&btnG=Search&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=&as_vis=0) , University of Wisconsin-Madison, published in 'Mirror Reflections: Popular Culture and Education" (Peter Lang, 2008). Seems to have several citations. (I am not an expert citations researcher).

The fourth is from gamecareerguide.com (which has some 70+ academic citations). The article "10 Trends in Game Design) cites Old Man Murray's Crate System (citation 15). (http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/647/10_trends_in_game_.php?print=1)

So there are four references from sources that I believe should pass muster. It took me less than one minute to find them, and perhaps 15 minutes to copy and paste them here. I am sure I could find more with a moderate investment of time should more be needed to establish notability.

I hope that the community can put these references to good use.

Rock Paper Shotgun have published an article with many quotes from industry stalwarts; there's some material there that could benefit the article:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/04/the-remarkable-notability-of-old-man-murray/

[[User:Paulmoloney|Paul Moloney]] ([[User talk:Paulmoloney|talk]]) 14:25, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
*I've thrown it in as yet another citation for the site's influence on the video games industry. It's probably not the best place for it, and someone could probably come up with a better use for it, but at least it's on the article. [[User:Delusibeta|Delusibeta]] ([[User talk:Delusibeta|talk]]) 15:41, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
* The Brian Lee O'Malley quote is of particular interest, as it shows influence outside of gaming/internet circles. [[Special:Contributions/97.120.237.30|97.120.237.30]] ([[User talk:97.120.237.30|talk]]) 17:48, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

If it happened it is notable. OMM happened and had a big influence on the gaming industry as it is today, if at least in an indirect manner. I thought Wikipedia was founded exactly to record history and knowledge, whatever it is, not just a selective outtake dictated by the views of the admins at the time. [[User:ChromeBallz|ChromeBallz]] ([[User talk:ChromeBallz|talk]])
:If it happened actually has nothing to do with notability, it's the influence part that's important. Even though the phraseology of Wikipedia is "the sum of all human knowledge", it's really the sum of all important and notable knowledge. Old Man Murray is important because of its influence on gaming as a whole, not just because it existed. [[User:Silver seren|<span style="color:silver;">Silver</span>]][[User talk:Silver seren|<span style="color:blue;">seren</span>]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]</sup> 23:08, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
:I beg to differ - If something happened it is a part of history AND human knowledge. Wikipedia is one of the few instances where the paradigm of "history is written by the victors" can be sidestepped. Pretending OMM never happened is bad practice for anyone who respects knowledge - Knowledge knows no grades or scores, and right now i'm getting really scared that Wikipedia, the very champion of this philosophy, is degrading into a community where knowledge can only exist as long as the admins allow it. I shouldn't have to elaborate on the term 'slippery slope'. [[User:ChromeBallz|ChromeBallz]] ([[User talk:ChromeBallz|talk]]) 20:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
::The standards for notability are far too malleable to mean anything. Notability is conferred over time, not by an arbitrary system of determining "influence." Wikipedia should err on the side of caution, adding any suggested article to the site and letting notability reveal itself by what is maintained and referred to over the years. Server space is not at a premium, so no real degradation of the service is inflicted by this, and it removes the inevitable capriciousness of "delete" nominations and votes. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User: ToutSuite | ToutSuite ]] ([[User talk: ToutSuite |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ ToutSuite |contribs]])  02:24, 5 March 2011 (UTC) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:::Let's try to keep this talk page focused on improving the article. The notability guidelines are what they are – they've been developed by hundreds if not thousands of editors and have had widespread consensus for years. If you feel like you have some new insight on the matter the place to raise it is [[Wikipedia talk:Notability]], not here. —[[User:Joey Roe|<span style="font-family:serif;color:#006699;">Joseph Roe</span>]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Joey Roe|<span style="color:#999;">Tk</span>]]<span style="color:#999;">•</span>[[Special:Contributions/Joey Roe|<span style="color:#999;">Cb</span>]]</small></sup>, 08:43, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Joseph, you do realize notability is a ''guideline''? You understand what the word ''guideline'' means? There is very little consensus about notability. Most of the recent deletionist scandals ''all'' occurred because of abuse by admins due to the overzealous application of the dubious notability guidelines. [[Special:Contributions/96.255.227.52|96.255.227.52]] ([[User talk:96.255.227.52|talk]])  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 17:47, 13 March 2011 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Status ==

Listed as a Start, but considering the amount of effort put in over the past 48 hours and how far the people making it have come, it definitely reads more like a C on its way to a B these days. [[Special:Contributions/216.41.16.82|216.41.16.82]] ([[User talk:216.41.16.82|talk]]) 18:37, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

==References==
Having a lot of non-reliable sources does not make the sourcing here reliable.  <span style="font-family:Comic sans;">[[User:Corvus cornix|<span style="color:green">Corvus cornix</span>]]<sub>''[[User talk:Corvus cornix|<span style="color:Green">talk</span>]]''</sub></span> 21:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
:I think you should go read the deletion review, where multiple users list reliable sources for the subject. [[User:Silver seren|<span style="color:silver;">Silver</span>]][[User talk:Silver seren|<span style="color:blue;">seren</span>]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]</sup> 21:35, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
:Wired, Gamasutra, 1UP, Joystiq, Rock Paper Shotgun, multiple game design-related printed books, how do you figure these "aren't reliable"? [[User:Fippy Darkpaw|Fippy Darkpaw]] ([[User talk:Fippy Darkpaw|talk]]) 22:07, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
::And which of those is a [[WP:RS|reliable source]]?  Maybe Wired...  <span style="font-family:Comic sans;">[[User:Corvus cornix|<span style="color:green">Corvus cornix</span>]]<sub>''[[User talk:Corvus cornix|<span style="color:Green">talk</span>]]''</sub></span> 22:11, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
:::How about all of them? Please see [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games/Sources#List]]. [[User:Silver seren|<span style="color:silver;">Silver</span>]][[User talk:Silver seren|<span style="color:blue;">seren</span>]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]</sup> 22:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
::::After that reply there should be only a smoking crater where Corvus cornix used to be. [[User:Fussbett|Fussbett]] ([[User talk:Fussbett|talk]]) 02:46, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
::::Rather than expecting us to read through the whole thing and come to the wrong conclusion, can you, as an expert in such matters, quote a particular passage that clearly renders these sources "non-reliable", so that myself and the other meatpuppets out there can more easily understand your point? [[User:AnonyGnome|AnonyGnome]] ([[User talk:AnonyGnome|talk]]) 22:28, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
:::::I assume you were replying to Corvus? [[User:Silver seren|<span style="color:silver;">Silver</span>]][[User talk:Silver seren|<span style="color:blue;">seren</span>]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]</sup> 23:08, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
::::::Gah, apologies, yes i was. [[User:AnonyGnome|AnonyGnome]] ([[User talk:AnonyGnome|talk]]) 00:56, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
::How on earth would you come to the conclusion that Gamasutra, the major industry journal in the Entertainment software industry isn't "reliable" for pete sake! Good grief. [[Special:Contributions/121.45.228.201|121.45.228.201]] ([[User talk:121.45.228.201|talk]]) 04:36, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
''1UP.com was built from the beginning to be a community-focused '''social networking site''' for gamers'' ''Joystiq is a video gaming '''blog'''''.  ''Rock, Paper, Shotgun is a UK-based PC gaming '''blog'''''.  <span style="font-family:Comic sans;">[[User:Corvus cornix|<span style="color:green">Corvus cornix</span>]]<sub>''[[User talk:Corvus cornix|<span style="color:Green">talk</span>]]''</sub></span> 23:33, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
:1UP.com was merged with [[UGO Networks]], a news organization. It has social networking and forum parts, yes, but it is still a news source. And blogs are not automatically unreliable, which seems to be what you are implying. Both of those have been vetted by both Wikiproject Video Games and the Reliable Sources Noticeboard as reliable multiple times. [[User:Silver seren|<span style="color:silver;">Silver</span>]][[User talk:Silver seren|<span style="color:blue;">seren</span>]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]</sup> 23:39, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
:Being a blog does not invalid a source. Of course there's various levels of reliability here, but as ''opinion'' pieces they're all mostly considered appropriate experts on the VG industry. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-size:x-small;">ASEM</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 00:09, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
:Blogging used to be John Smith's personal diary, but now a lot of websites use the format, so using 'blog' as a catch-all in this way is extremely outdated. RPS' main contributors are experienced video game journalists who were and are working on newstand gaming magazines, it should hold no less weight coming from RPS than from PC Gamer or whatever. Gaming blogs such as Joystiq, Kotaku, Destructoid and 1up are accepted commentators within the video game industry, interviewing members of the industry, reporting on and reviewing games as well as communicating with publishers and developers. Not recognizing their content because they don't have degrees in writing about Pacman or whatever is taking [[WP:RS]] too far, depriving WP of content without making it more 'reliable'. That isn't to say that they shouldn't be checked-up on as much as possible, as with all sources, but our angst about using established video game sites to source articles related to video games gets on my wheel. [[User:Someone another|Someone]][[User_talk:Someone another|another]] 01:03, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
:[[Penny Arcade]] is alternately called a [[web comic]] and a [[blog]]; however, they have [[PAX|their own convention]], get a lot of page views, and get shoveled new products (sometimes not even released) for free because the people making them want coverage on Penny Arcade.  Effectively... [http://pcgames-accessories.blogspot.com/ PC Games and accessories] it's entertainment, and Tycho/Gabe's babbling.  However, it's significant editorial opinion in the gaming industry, considering all the vendors that show up at their conventions to peddle wares and all the [[marketing|free shit]] they get.  Just something to consider about "blogs." --[[Special:Contributions/199.173.226.229|199.173.226.229]] ([[User talk:199.173.226.229|talk]]) 18:45, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

:Wow, do you really think the word blog in Wikipedia's reliable source guide refers to the format of site rather than the type of site? Gawker, for example, is not '''just''' some blog. [[User:Worm4Real|Worm4Real]] ([[User talk:Worm4Real|talk]]) 01:30, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

:Rock Paper Shotgun is a UK Limited company, aiming to be a reliable source of PC game news and reviews. [[User:Kirrus|Kirrus]] ([[User talk:Kirrus|talk]]) 10:50, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

== bn ==

Oxford Capacity Analysis  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/96.48.13.234|96.48.13.234]] ([[User talk:96.48.13.234|talk]]) 23:53, 13 March 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==New Sections==
[[User:Adam.Wasserman|Adam.Wasserman]] ([[User talk:Adam.Wasserman|talk]]) 02:48, 14 March 2011 (UTC) Again please excuse any newbie errors I may have made in editing the main article. I decided to show initiative andtry and figure out for myself how to add the citations I found. I hope I did a decent job, apologies if I muffed it in any way.

[[User:Adam.Wasserman|Adam.Wasserman]] ([[User talk:Adam.Wasserman|talk]]) 20:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC) Please excuse any newbie-type errors I might make. I have never participated in a discussion page before.

:They look good. The only thing I want to note is that the links need to be turned into actual references and not just in-prose links to sources. [[User:Silver seren|<span style="color:silver;">Silver</span>]][[User talk:Silver seren|<span style="color:blue;">seren</span>]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]</sup> 02:51, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

:Just saying something was cited in something else is poor writing, though the sources appear good.  I've taken a major step to group the "Start to Crate" and the "Death of Ad. Games" commentary together to incorporate these new sources  too. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-size:x-small;">ASEM</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 03:26, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

== Past tense in lede ==

The lede can use some clarity as it uses the past tense when describing the site while the website still seems to be a live link. Is the tense used because it was an active page that has subsequently become an archive? —[[User:Ost316|Ost]] ([[User talk:Ost316|talk]]) 19:05, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
:Old Man Murray is no longer active and has had no activity for several years. Since 2003, I believe. While the website itself still works, there has been no new news reports or any other significant activity since then, which is why it is referred to in the past tense. [[User:Silver seren|<span style="color:silver;">Silver</span>]][[User talk:Silver seren|<span style="color:blue;">seren</span>]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]</sup> 20:31, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
::Thanks; that is what I thought.  It should be made clear in the lede; it ''is'' still a website, but it ''was'' written and updated. —[[User:Ost316|Ost]] ([[User talk:Ost316|talk]]) 21:14, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

== Start date? ==

There is no mention of when OMM began; I would expect a History section, but failing there should be at least an indication of the start year. [[User:Languagehat|Languagehat]] ([[User talk:Languagehat|talk]]) 17:43, 22 May 2016 (UTC)