View source for Talk:Renée Vivien

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== Symbolist? ==
I think that the Symbolists would have been surprised to learn that Vivien was a Symbolist.  She is not normally included as part of the movement.

:Poems by Vivien were included in Bernard Delvaille's anthology ''La Poésie Symboliste''.  ({{ISBN|2221501616}})  There may have been a strong element of "wannabee" in Vivien's verse, which is why I wrote that she "took to heart the mannerisms" of the school, and "claimed allegiance" to it.  -- [[User:Ihcoyc|Smerdis of Tlön]] 04:14, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I am not sure how reliable Delvaille's anthology is as a source of mainstream ideas about Symbolism.   I saw the table of contents of the book which included some unusual choices of authors.  I am getting a copy of the book and will see what he has to say before making a judgment.  Vivien is usually associated with the Sapho 1900 group.

== Birth and parents ==
In the meantime, it is worth noting that Vivien was born in London.  Her mother was American and her father British.

== American poet? ==

Born in England, to an American mother and a British father; grew up in both Long Island, London and France; spent significant amounts of time in all three countries; she wrote in French. Does that make her "an American poet who wrote in the French language"? Did she identify herself as a particular nationality? In the absence of choice by her to identify as one nationality or another, I would be inclined to call her an British/American/French poet (in whatever order) -- or even just "a poet who wrote in the French language". The rest of the article discusses her (complicated) national status enough; adding the adjective "American" is not only questionable but also redundant.

==Citations==
As is mentioned in the banner above the article, none of the sources listed at the bottom are paired with information in the article itself. Without in text citations, this could be considered plagiarism. In addition, some of the links in the citations don't work (namely, Renée Vivien ou le drame de l'absolu (in French): http://perso.wanadoo.fr/laureline/renee_vivienl.htm ). The sources also seem mostly questionable - many of the sources are just links to her poems and very few are actually autobiographical, let alone reliable. There are a lot of potentially opinionated or biased statements/wording choices throughout the article that need to have direct references to be valid (or should just be removed). [[User:MadelineMMay|MadelineMMay]] ([[User talk:MadelineMMay|talk]]) 16:17, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

== Quality ==

I think the article needs to be heavily rewritten. It's incoherent and unrealible. The sources are of a very low-quality, and are more often than not, cyclical in nature. There's a profusion of bizzare, unsubstantiated claims that are littered throughout.  [[User:Anactoriaa|Anactoriaa]] ([[User talk:Anactoriaa|talk]]) 11:00, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

:{{Ping|Anactoriaa}} I think that you are correct about the low quality of the sources. I am about to add a number of sources in the next section. Please peruse those to which you have access & feel free to incorporate them into the article for its improvement. [[User:Peaceray|Peaceray]] ([[User talk:Peaceray|talk]]) 05:02, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

==Citations for the article==
As {{U|Anactoriaa}} has noted, there is a dearth of quality citations for this article. I have gathered a number of citations. Some will be available to all, some will be available at certain libraries, & some will limited access. I invite you to all to help in adding these citations to the article as appropriate.

Some citations will be available via the [[WP:LIBRARY|'''Wikipedia Library''']]. If you are not already a member of the Wikipedia Library & you meet the requirements outlined at [https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/about/#req '''About the Wikipedia Library: Who can receive access?'''], then I urge you to join. [[User:Peaceray|Peaceray]] ([[User talk:Peaceray|talk]]) 05:03, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

===A list of citations for Renée Vivien===
*{{cite book |last=Albert |first=Nicole |last2=Erber |first2=Nancy |last3=Peniston |first3=William |title=Lesbian Decadence : Representations in Art and Literature of Fin-de-Siècle France. |publisher=Harrington Park Press, LLC |publication-place=La Vergne |date=2016 |isbn=978-1-939594-21-1 |oclc=1023552079 |ref=none}}
*{{cite journal |last=Albert |first=Nicole |title=Sappho Mythified, Sappho Mystified or The Metamorphoses of Sappho in Fin de Siècle France |journal=Journal of Homosexuality |publisher=Informa UK Limited |volume=25 |issue=1-2 |date=1993-11-17 |issn=0091-8369 |doi=10.1300/j082v25n01_07 |pages=87–104 |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Aldrich |first=Robert |author-link=Robert Aldrich (historian) |last2=Wotherspoon |first2=Garry |chapter=Vivien, Renée (1877–1909) |chapter-url=https://archive.org/details/whoswhoingaylesb00robe/page/466/mode/2up |chapter-url-access=registration |via=Internet Archive |title=Who's who in gay and lesbian history : from antiquity to World War II |publisher=Routledge |publication-place=London |date=2002 |isbn=978-1-84972-257-5 |oclc=213298249 |pages=466-467 |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Benstock |first=Shari |author-link=Shari Benstock |chapter=Contrasting Poetics: Vivien and Barney |chapter-url=https://archive.org/details/womenofleftbank00shar/page/285/mode/2up |chapter-url-access=registration |pages=83, 276, 279, 285–289, 302–03|title=Women of the Left Bank : Paris, 1900-1940 |publisher=University of Texas Press |publication-place=Austin |date=1986 |isbn=978-0-292-79193-0 |oclc=698116886 |url=https://archive.org/details/womenofleftbank00shar |url-access=registration |via=Internet Archive |ref=none}}
*{{cite thesis |last=Blankley |first=Elyse Marie |title=Daughters' exile: Renee Vivien, Gertrude Stein, and Djuna Barnes in Paris |year=1984 |oclc=986514993  |type=PhD |publication-place=Davis, CA, US |publisher=University of California |ref=none}}
*{{cite journal |last=Carr |first=Jennifer |title=Melanie C. Hawthorne. Women, Citizenship, and Sexuality: The Transnational Lives of Renée Vivien, Romaine Brooks, and Natalie Barney. Liverpool UP, 2021. |journal=Studies in 20th & 21st Century Literature |publisher=New Prairie Press |volume=46 |issue=1 |date=2022-05-17 |issn=2334-4415 |doi=10.4148/2334-4415.2223 |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Castle |first=Terry |author-link=Terry Castle |title=The literature of lesbianism : a historical anthology from Ariosto to Stonewall |publisher=Columbia University Press |publication-place=New York |date=2003 |isbn=0-231-12510-0 |oclc=1150214259 |url=https://archive.org/details/literatureoflesb0000unse |url-access=limited |via=Internet Archive |ref=none}} Note: There is a brief chapter (pages 608–613) but Vivien is also mentioned throughout the book. See [https://books.google.com/books?id=8dBWMz-FpZcC&pg=PA609&dq=Ren%C3%A9e+Vivien https://books.google.com/books?id=8dBWMz-FpZcC&pg=PA609&dq=Ren%C3%A9e+Vivien]
*{{cite web |last=Corinne |first=Tee A. |title=Photography: Lesbian, Pre-Stonewall |url=http://www.glbtqarchive.com/arts/photography_lesbian_pre_stonewall_A.pdf |date=2002 |website=glbtqarchive.com |publisher=GLBTQ, Inc. |ref=none}}
*{{cite web |last=Corinne |first=Tee A. |title=Subjects of the Visual Arts: Nude Femailes |url=http://www.glbtqarchive.com/arts/subjects_nude_female_A.pdf |date=2002 |website=glbtqarchive.com |publisher=GLBTQ, Inc. |ref=none}}
*{{cite journal |last=Dilts |first=Rebekkah |title=(Un)veiling Sappho: Renée Vivien and Natalie Clifford Barney’s Radical Translation Projects |journal=Refract: An Open Access Visual Studies Journal |publisher=California Digital Library (CDL) |volume=2 |issue=1 |date=2019-11-11 |issn=2640-9429 |doi=10.5070/r72145856 |ref=none}}
*{{cite journal <!-- Citation bot bypass--> |last=Engelking |first=Tama Lea |title=Genre and the Mark of Gender: Renee Vivien's "Sonnet feminin" |journal=Modern Language Studies |publisher=JSTOR |volume=23 |issue=4 |year=1993 |issn=0047-7729 |doi=10.2307/3195207 |page=79–92 |url=https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/clmlang_facpub/93/ |ref=none}}
*{{cite journal |last=Engelking |first=Tama Lea |title=Renee Vivien and The Ladies of the Lake |journal=Nineteenth Century French Studies |publisher=Project Muse |volume=30 |issue=3 |year=2002 |issn=1536-0172 |doi=10.1353/ncf.2002.0014 |pages=363–380 |oclc=5612759813 |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Engelking |first=Tama Lea |chapter=Decadence and the Woman Writer: Renée Vivien’s ''Une femme m’apparut'' |editor-last=Holmes |editor-first=Diana |editor-last2=Tarr |editor-first2=Carrie |title=A "belle epoque"? : women in French society and culture, 1890-1914 |publication-place=New York |date=2007 |pages=225–237 |isbn=978-0-85745-701-1 |oclc=961901020 |jstor=j.ctt9qd89w.21 |hdl=2027/heb08670.0001.001 |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Fabre-Serris |first=Jacqueline |title=Women Classical Scholars |chapter=Anne Dacier (1681), Renée Vivien (1903): Or What Does it Mean for a Woman to Translate Sappho?  |publisher=Oxford University Press |date=2016-10-27 |doi=10.1093/acprof:oso/9780198725206.003.0005 |oclc=964291395 |isbn=9780191792571 |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Faxneld |first=Per |chapter=Lucifer and the Lesbians: Sapphic Satanism |chapter-url=https://academic.oup.com/book/1486/chapter/140908526 |chapter-url-access=subscription |title=Satanic Feminism: Lucifer as the Liberator of Woman in Nineteenth-Century Culture |publisher=Oxford University Press |year=2017 |isbn=978-0-19-066447-3 |url=https://academic.oup.com/book/1486 |url-access=subscription |pages=9, 20, 234, 236–237, 261, 265, 274, 285, 327, 347, 354–385, 387, 407, 419, 423–425, 437, 439–440, 461, 476, 482–483, 498–507, 509–510, 513–514 |oclc=1025340204 |ref=none}} (via the Wikipedia Library)
*{{cite book |last=Germain |first=André |title=Renée Vivien |publisher=G. Crès & cie |year=1917 |oclc=10057722 |language=fr |url={{google books URL|id=_PlcAAAAMAAJ}} |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Glick |first=Elisa |chapter=The seductions of Sapphic decadence |title=Materializing queer desire : Oscar Wilde to Andy Warhol |publisher=State University of New York Press |publication-place=Albany |date=2009 |isbn=1-4384-2738-7 |oclc=809411167 |ref=none}}
*{{cite journal |last=Hawthorne |first=Melanie |title=Behind the Bamboo Screen: Renée Vivien and the Rituals of Self-Destruction |journal=The French Review |publisher=Project Muse |volume=92 |issue=4 |year=2019 |issn=2329-7131 |doi=10.1353/tfr.2019.0274 |pages=54–66 |oclc=8872157536 |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Hawthorne |first=Melanie C. |title=Women, Citizenship, and Sexuality: The Transnational Lives of Renée Vivien, Romaine Brooks, and Natalie Barney
 |publisher=Liverpool University Press |date=2021-01-23 |isbn=978-1-78962-273-7 |doi=10.2307/j.ctv1hqdjv0 |oclc=1237865853 |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Jay |first=Karla |author-link=Karla Jay |title=The amazon and the page : Natalie Clifford Barney and Renée Vivien |publication-place=Bloomington |date=1988 |isbn=0-253-30408-3 |oclc=568764307 |url=https://archive.org/details/amazonpagenatali0000jayk |url-access=registration |via=Internet Archive |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Leontis |first=Artemis |title=Eva Palmer Sikelianos |publisher=Princeton University Press |date=2019-03-05 |isbn=978-0-691-18790-7 |doi=10.2307/j.ctv5j01vj |oclc=1080938485 |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Marks |first=Elaine |chapter="Sapho 1900": Imaginary Renée Vivien, Charles Maurras, an the Rear of the Belle Epogue |chapter-url={{google books URL |id=vw9F13gnmAkC |page=58}}|pages=43–58 |title=Marrano as metaphor : the Jewish presence in French writing |publisher=Columbia University Press |publication-place=New York |date=1996 |isbn=0-231-10308-5 |oclc=1035758179  |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Rosello |first=Mireille |chapter=Renée Vivien's ''La Dame a la louve'' and ''Une Femme m'apparut'' |chapter-url=https://archive.org/details/infiltratingcult0000rose/page/146/mode/2up |chapter-url-access=registration |via=Internet Archive |title=Infiltrating culture : power and identity in contemporary women's writing |publisher=Manchester University Press |publication-place=Manchester, UK |date=1996 |isbn=0-7190-4875-3 |oclc=1302083624 |pages=146–180 |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |editor-last=Goujon |editor-first=Jean-Paul |title=Album Secret: Renée Vivien, Natalie Barney, Eva Palmer |publisher=Editions "A L'Ecart" |year=1984 |oclc=13007229 |language=fr |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Souhami |first=Diana |author-link=Diana Souhami |chapter=''Discursion 3'': Renée Vivien, More Renée Vivien; ''Discursion 43'': Renée Vivien's Death |chapter-url=https://archive.org/details/wildgirlsparissa0000souh_s5r8/page/36/mode/2up |chapter-url-access=registration |title=Wild girls : Paris, Sappho, and art -- the lives and loves of Natalie Barney and Romaine Brooks |publisher=St. Martin's Press |year=2005 |oclc=1285844271 |url=https://archive.org/details/wildgirlsparissa0000souh_s5r8 |url-access=registration |via=Internet Archive |pages=36–54 |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Souhami |first=Diana |author-link=Diana Souhami |title=Wild girls : Paris, Sappho, and art -- the lives and loves of Natalie Barney and Romaine Brooks |publisher=St. Martin's Press |publication-place=New York |date=2005 |isbn=0-312-34324-8 |oclc=1285844271 |url=https://archive.org/details/wildgirlsparissa0000souh_s5r8 |url-access=registration |via=Internet Archive |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Summers |first=Claude J. |chapter=Vivien, Renée  (1877–1909) |chapter-url=https://archive.org/details/gaylesbianlitera00summ/page/718/mode/2up |chapter-url-access=registration |via=Internet Archive |title=Gay and Lesbian Literary Heritage: a reader's companion to the writers and their works, from antiquity to the present |publisher=H. Holt |publication-place=New York |date=1995 |isbn=0-8050-2716-5 |oclc=865245596 |pages=179–181 |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Vicinus |first=Martha |author-link=Martha Vicinus |chapter=The Lesbian Androgyne: Renée Vivien |chapter-url=https://archive.org/details/intimatefriendsw0000vici/page/190/mode/2up |chapter-url-access=registration|title=Intimate friends : women who loved women, 1778-1928 |publisher=University of Chicago Press |publication-place=Chicago |date=2004 |isbn=0-226-85563-5 |oclc=1310747923 |pages=n21, 162–163, 171-173, 178, 183, 186, 189, 190-198, 234, 235, 243 |url=https://archive.org/details/intimatefriendsw0000vici |url-access=registration |via=Internet Archive |ref=none}}
*{{cite book |last=Vivien |first=Renée |translator-last=Foster |translator-first=Jeannette H. |others=introduction by [[Gayle Rubin]] |chapter=Introduction |chapter-url=https://archive.org/details/womanappearedtom00rene/page/n11/mode/2up |chapter-url-access=registration |via=Internet Archive |title=A woman appeared to me |publication-place=Tallahassee, Florida |date=1982 |isbn=0-930044-06-1 |oclc=22067452 |pages=iii–xx |ref=none}}
*{{cite book <!-- Citation bot bypass--> |last=Wright |first=Julian |author-link=Julian Wright (historian) |title=The Regionalist Movement in France 1890-1914 |publisher=Oxford University Press |date=2003-07-10 |isbn=978-0-19-926488-9 |doi=10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199264889.001.0001 |url={{Google books URL |id=dhmQfnPc4AwC |page=111}} |pages=111-113 |ref=none}}

== Natalie Barney's view of Vivien's portrayal in The Pure and the Impure ==

it's not just reportedly that she didn't like it, - in her piece  The Colette I Have Known, she says Colette judges Renee in her profile without 'understanding or consideration.' [[Special:Contributions/94.197.168.225|94.197.168.225]] ([[User talk:94.197.168.225|talk]]) 19:38, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

:she states that the profile shows Colette's dislike of Vivien. Judith Thurman, one of Colette's best biographers, says she didn't really like her, but did feel sympathetic to her because of her mental illness, the cause of much of her behaviour. [[Special:Contributions/94.197.168.225|94.197.168.225]] ([[User talk:94.197.168.225|talk]]) 19:39, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
::Colette did dedicate a piece to Vivien, Printemps de la Riviera, about a lesbian masked ball they attended with the courtesans Liane de Pougy, Carolina Otero and Renee's onetime lover Emilienne d'Alencon. [[Special:Contributions/94.197.168.225|94.197.168.225]] ([[User talk:94.197.168.225|talk]]) 19:41, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
:Barney also felt that Colette's negative view of Vivien's poetry was because she disliked most poetry. Judith Thurman states that Vivien's poems were out-of-fashion even when written (not that this necessarily means they were without merit) [[Special:Contributions/94.197.168.225|94.197.168.225]] ([[User talk:94.197.168.225|talk]]) 19:42, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

== Emilienne d'Alencon ==

Vivien also dated her [[Special:Contributions/94.197.168.225|94.197.168.225]] ([[User talk:94.197.168.225|talk]]) 19:39, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

== Olive Custance ==

Vivien also had an affair with her - related in A Woman appeared to me. Custance was also Barney's lover [[Special:Contributions/94.197.168.225|94.197.168.225]] ([[User talk:94.197.168.225|talk]]) 19:46, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

== Sacha Ricoy ==

Helene van Zuylen eventually dumped Renee for Sacha Ricoy, wife of the Brazilian ambassador Luis Ricoy, and daughter of the Russian-Jewish sculptor Mark Anotokovsky. [[Special:Contributions/94.197.168.225|94.197.168.225]] ([[User talk:94.197.168.225|talk]]) 19:47, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

:see Lot's Wife : Lesbian Paris [[Special:Contributions/94.197.168.225|94.197.168.225]] ([[User talk:94.197.168.225|talk]]) 19:48, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

== Converting citations in the Further reading section to the Cite Book template<span class="anchor" id="Converting citations"></span> ==

As per [[Wikipedia:Citing sources#Generally considered helpful]], I am going to convert the citations in the Further reading section to {{tl|Cite Book}} format to be consistent with the citation style in the rest of the article. [[User:Peaceray|Peaceray]] ([[User talk:Peaceray|talk]]) 15:05, 7 June 2024 (UTC)