View source for Talk:Secretarybird

{{Article history
|action1 = GAN
|action1date = 08:15, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
|action1link = Talk:Secretarybird/GA1
|action1result = listed
|action1oldid = 950871173

|action2 = FAC
|action2date = 2020-06-15
|action2link = Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Secretarybird/archive1
|action2result = promoted
|action2oldid = 962584994

|currentstatus = FA
|maindate=30 September 2023
|topic = Biology and medicine
}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=FA|vital=yes|1=
{{WikiProject Africa|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Birds|importance=High}}
}}

==Sagittariidae?==
Hackett et al (2008 Science. 320:1763-1767) places the Secretary bird in Acciptridae. They do not have Sagittariidae.  This should be changed, unless my reading of Hackett et al's phylogeny is incorrect.  Can an expert comment?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/152.23.88.37|152.23.88.37]] ([[User talk:152.23.88.37|talk]]) 17:33, 21 January 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Tree? ==
Is the image of a tree relevant or vandalism?--[[User:203.45.119.219|203.45.119.219]] 23:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
:These image were obviously meant to illustrate the "habitat" section, but without captions they are practically useless, and they will be soon deleted anyway. Removing them now [[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 02:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

== Monday? ==
What does the "Monday" refer to in the reference ''The Terror Birds of South America'' - Marshall, L.G., ''Scientific American'', 82-89 (Mnday 1 March 2001)?  Is it Monday?  (I think the first of March in 2001 fell on a Thursday.) -- [[User:KathrynLybarger|KathrynLybarger]] ([[User talk:KathrynLybarger|talk]]) 18:23, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

==To do==
Needs a separate distribution and status section. [[User:AshLin|AshLin]] ([[User talk:AshLin|talk]]) 04:54, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
:The articles is looking like it will be the next colab of the month so this should get done soon! [[User:Sabine's Sunbird|Sabine's Sunbird]]  [[User talk:Sabine's Sunbird|<span style="color:#008000;">talk</span>]] 05:21, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

== [[Secretary Bird]] 4 votes is collaboration for June 09 ==

''Nominated [[27th April]] [[2009]];''

Support:
# [[User:Sabine's Sunbird|Sabine's Sunbird]]  [[User talk:Sabine's Sunbird|<span style="color:#008000;">talk</span>]] 04:32, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
# [[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 04:46, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
# [[User:Rufous-crowned Sparrow|Rufous-crowned Sparrow]] ([[User talk:Rufous-crowned Sparrow|talk]]) 21:12, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
#-- [[User:KimvdLinde|Kim van der Linde]] <sup>[[User talk:KimvdLinde|at venus]]</sup> 23:05, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Comments:
*In not terrible condition, has good images, kills two particular birds with one stone, it's a family all of its own (without the difficulties that entails as it is only one species) and it is an undercovered region of the world. Looks cool too. [[User:Sabine's Sunbird|Sabine's Sunbird]]  [[User talk:Sabine's Sunbird|<span style="color:#008000;">talk</span>]] 04:32, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
*Agree. [[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 04:46, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
===fact cite===
''These eggs are incubated primarily by the female for 45 days until they hatch.'' Any cites for this? According to HBW both birds incubate, with some variation between pairs. [[User:Sabine's Sunbird|Sabine's Sunbird]]  [[User talk:Sabine's Sunbird|<span style="color:#008000;">talk</span>]] 01:48, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

== Disputed info ==

I'm pasting in here an edit by {{User|John Fairfield}}, who provided an alternative first record of this species, using the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica as his source.  I wanted to be sure he had a chance to defend his edit.  I note, however, that Miller is listed as the first describer of this taxon, as indicated by the entry in the infobox.

<blockquote>SECRETARY-BIRD, a very singular African bird, first accurately made known, from an example living in the menagerie of the prince of Orange, in 1769 by A. Vosmaer,' in a treatise published simultaneously in Dutch and French, and afterwards included in his collected works issued, under the title of Regnum Animale, in 1804. He was told that at the Cape of Good Hope this bird was known as the "Sagittarius" or Archer, from its striding gait being thought to resemble that of a bowman advancing to shoot, but that this name had been corrupted into that of "Secretarius."</blockquote>


Thank you very much for your quick response. I am not sure which of our sources are considered to be the most "authentic" but I believe that at least the Encyclopedia Britannica (quoted below) is pretty adamant on whom it considers to have provided the first "description" of the Secretary Bird as well the fact that it has been described by several others prior to Miller. You will, however, notice that the EB concedes at the end of the article that Miller is considered the first to have conferred a scientific name on the Secretary Bird (albeit erroneous = "Falco serpentarius"). In conclusion I would like to mention that I have an original copy of Vosmaers Treatise of the Secretary Bird (published in 1769) in my collection and that at least in my opinion this document and its illustration provide a far more accurate portrayal of the bird than Miller

Kind Regards,

John F.

Start Quote

SECRETARY-BIRD, a very singular African bird, first accurately made known, from an example living in the menagerie of the prince of Orange, in 1769 by A. Vosmaer,' in a treatise published simultaneously in Dutch and French, and afterwards included in his collected works issued, under the title of Regnum Animale, in 1804. He was told that at the Cape of Good Hope this bird was known as the "Sagittarius" or Archer, from its striding gait being thought to resemble that of a bowman advancing to shoot, but that this name had been corrupted into that of "Secretarius." In August 1770 G. Edwards saw an example Secretary-Bird (apparently alive, and the survivor of a pair which had been brought to England) in the possession of a Mr Raymond near Ilford in Essex; and, being unacquainted with Vosmaer's work, he figured and described it as "of a new genus" in the Philosophical Transactions for the following year (lxi. pp. 55, 56, pl. ii.). In 1776 P. Sonnerat (Voy. Nouv. Guinee, p. 87, pl. 50) again described and figured, but not at all correctly, the species, saying (but no doubt wrongly) that he found it in 1771 in the Philippine Islands. A better representation was given by D'Aubenton in 1 Le Valliant (Sec. Voy. Afrique, ii. p. 273) truly states that Kolben in 1719 (Caput Bonae Spei hodiernum, p. 182, French version, ii. p. 198) had mentioned this bird under its local name of "Snakeeater" (Slangenvreeter, Dutch translation, i. p. 214); but that author, who was a bad naturalist, thought it was a Pelican and also confounded it with the Spoonbill, which is figured to illustrate his account of it the Planches enluminees (721); in 1780 Buffon (Oiseaux, vii. p. 33 o) published some additional information derived from Querhoent, saying also that it was to be seen in some English menageries; and the following year J. Latham (Synopsis, i. p. 20, pl. 2) described and figured it from three examples which he had seen alive in England. None of these authors, however, gave the bird a scientific name, and the first conferred upon it seems to have been that of Falco serpentarius, inscribed on a plate bearing date 1779, by John Frederick Miller (Ill. Nat. History, xxviii.), which plate appears also in Shaw's Cimelia Physica (No. 28) and is a misleading caricature


End Quote

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:John_Fairfield"  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:John Fairfield|John Fairfield]] ([[User talk:John Fairfield|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/John Fairfield|contribs]]) 20:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Taxonomic history ==

The history of the taxonomy is a little involved and probably too technical to include in the article - but I'll mention it here. (I don't completely understand it)

I noticed that in 1891 [[Richard Bowdler Sharpe|Sharpe]] in Vol 1 of his Hand-list placed the secretarybird in the order Accipitriformes, the family Serpentariidae and the genus ''Serpentarius''. see [https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/8390440 here] - this differs from the present taxonomy.

Walter Bock in 1994 on p. 212 of his book [http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/handle/2246/830 History and Nomenclature of Avian Family-Group Names] writes:

"(23) SAGITTARIIDAE Finsch and Hartlaub, 1870 (1825) (''Sagittarius'' Hermann, 1783) conserved in preference to Gypogeranidae Vigors, 1825 (''Gypogeranus'' Illiger, 1811 = ''Sagittarius'') and Serpentariidae Selys-Longchamps, 1842 (''Serpentarius'' Cuvier, 1798 = ''Sagittarius'') [Art. 40(b)]."

The ICZN code: [https://code.iczn.org/family-group-nominal-taxa-and-their-names/article-40-synonymy-of-the-type-genus/ Article 40. Synonymy of the type genus] (There are paras 40.1, 40.2 and 40.2.1 but no 40(b))

It appears that although Finsch and Hartlaub introduced Sagittariidae (actually as Sagittariinae) in 1870, well after Gypogeranidae Vigors, 1825 and Serpentariidae Selys-Longchamps, 1842, Sagittariidae has priority because the genus ''Sagittarius'' Hermann, 1783 has priority over both ''Gypogeranus'' Illiger, 1811 and ''Serpentarius'' Cuvier, 1798.

Art. 40.2.1. "A name maintained by virtue of this Article retains its own author but takes the priority of the replaced name, of which it is deemed to be the senior synonym."

So presumably this is why Bock puts (1825) in brackets after Sagittariidae as that is the date that Vigors introduced Gypogeranidae.

- [[User:Aa77zz|Aa77zz]] ([[User talk:Aa77zz|talk]]) 15:42, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

:I am nosing around looking at info for ''[[Pelargopappus]]'' and other fossil taxa that sit within Sagittariidae. This allows us to split a family page off from the species - the above is then good for the family page. [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 05:06, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

== weird voice ==

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mzQI2gLbok

The link is to a video of a secretary bird making its deep growling noise.
- [[User:Aa77zz|Aa77zz]] ([[User talk:Aa77zz|talk]]) 15:07, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

== FAC ==

So shall we decide which section each of use does? Also does anybody else have ''The Birds of Africa''? If not I'll order it. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 22:23, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
:I thought it was looking pretty comprehensive as of now. I figure there must be some more cultural material and was going to look on google scholar for that, as well as seeing what recent journal articles there were. [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 04:17, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
::But don't we have to make sure the article accurately reflect the sources? That book is cited a lot. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 11:42, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
:::{{u|LittleJerry}}: I phone-scanned the secretarybird article in the ''The Birds of Africa'' and sent you (and Cas) a pdf on 22 Nov 2019. I can send you another copy if you wish. I have access to most of the sources cited in the article but not to Brown & Amadon (1968). ''Eagles, Hawks, and Falcons of the World''. As I cannot access a library at the moment, I plan to eventually replace the cites to this book. - [[User:Aa77zz|Aa77zz]] ([[User talk:Aa77zz|talk]]) 12:47, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

::Oh right, I forgot. My labtop has since broken and I have gotten a new one so I lost that scan. I did get back the other scans that I sent Cas by searching my sent emails for my gmail. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 16:56, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
:::{{u|Aa77zz}}, are there any other sources you don't have? If not, after Brown and Amadon is replaced should you get this copyedited and sent to GA? [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 21:19, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

*The article accurately reflects the source and states that the cere is blueish grey. My understanding is that the cere is at the top of the bill where the [[Beak#Nares|nares]] (nostrils) are located. In the photo of the head the tissue around the nares is yellow. What am I missing? - [[User:Aa77zz|Aa77zz]] ([[User talk:Aa77zz|talk]]) 16:47, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
::The source, Brown et al 1982 ''Birds of Africa'', is obviously wrong. Kemp 1994 HBW Family Sagittariidae Morphological Aspects [https://www.hbw.com/family/secretarybird-sagittariidae here] has "the '''yellow cere''' around the elongate, vertical, oval nostrils" - as in the photo. The HBW family page has lots of info that isn't in the HBW species page. - [[User:Aa77zz|Aa77zz]] ([[User talk:Aa77zz|talk]]) 10:18, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

*There are different opinions as to which sex is larger. Brown et al 1982 Birds of Africa has: "males often paler than females and with a longer crest and tail, and '''somewhat larger'''." They give the wing measurements as male: 630-670mm, female: 610-660mm but don't give a refence for the measurements. Ferguson-Lees & Christie Raptors of the World give the male as 107% of the female. (explained on p23 this is calculated as cube of middle of the range of standard wing measurements - presumably those quoted by Brown ie (650/635)**3 = 1.072). BUT Kemp 1995 on breeding p.62 has "The sexes of the Secretarybird were very similar in size and colour but, when breeding pairs were seen together at close range, males could usually be distinguished by their '''slightly smaller size''', more blue-grey upperparts, more developed crest with some grey feathers, proportionately longer central tail feathers, more rounded head and less extensive bare facial skin behind the eye." The weights published by Biggs et al 1979 don't specify the sexes. Clearly, any difference in average size is small - with a big overlap. - [[User:Aa77zz|Aa77zz]] ([[User talk:Aa77zz|talk]]) 10:43, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
::So do we just have to replace cites to "Brown & Amadon (1968)"? What do we have to do to get this to GA? [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 17:19, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Just looking at content, wondering whether there is more on vocalisations. Will have a look. Also taxonomic history - need a source that shows all tehse are synonyms. [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 03:06, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

::<s>I'll try to replace the 1969 book today or tomorrow. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 11:47, 10 April 2020 (UTC)</s>
:::Done. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 23:00, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
Okay - have nominated at GAN. Will get some fresh eyes on it that way. [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 02:42, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

{{u|Casliber}}, {{u|Aa77zz}} whats the next step? [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 22:03, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
::Let me just ask {{U|Sabine's Sunbird}} for one lookover before nominating...[[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 01:39, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

{{Talk:Secretarybird/GA1}}

== Secretarybird vs Secretary bird.... ==

So I was surprised  to see [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=secretary+bird%2C+secretarybird&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Csecretary%20bird%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Csecretarybird%3B%2Cc0 this graph], which indicates the spaced form is more widely used, yet the [https://www.worldbirdnames.org/bow/raptors/ IOC], [https://www.hbw.com/species/secretarybird-sagittarius-serpentarius HBW], [https://www.birds.cornell.edu/clementschecklist/overview-august-2019/ Clements], [https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/22696221/93549951 IUCN redlist] all have unspaced. [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 11:29, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

[http://ielc.libguides.com/sdzg/factsheets/secretarybird/taxonomy San Diego Zoo] uses spaced. [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 11:32, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Can anyone see any other important sources using spaced? [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 11:32, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
:: When viewing the ngram link above you need to click the box marked "case-insensitive" - because as we know well most ornithologists use uppercase for the initial letters. Even with this change the spaced version appears more popular but the ratio drops from 37:1 to around 10:1. According to the google ngram more authors use the hyphenated form than use the single word. I've looked at the journal articles that I've downloaded to my laptop - not all of which are cited in the article. Of those published in the last 20 years, 8 use the unspaced form, 4 add a space and 1 uses a hyphen - thus a majority use a single word. I have a couple of fieldguides (or field guides?) on Afican birds: the guide on W. Africa was first published in 2001 and uses a hyphen, the guide on E. Africa was first published in 2002 and adds a space. The Atlas of South Africa Birds published in 1997 (currently an external link) uses the single word. So although some ornithologists add a space it appears the important modern sources use the unspaced form. - [[User:Aa77zz|Aa77zz]] ([[User talk:Aa77zz|talk]]) 15:07, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
:::Howard & Moore (4th ed) published 2013 is/was an important source - but is now out of date. It uses a hyphen (Vol 1 p.234) or [https://www.aviansystematics.org/4th-edition-checklist?viewfamilies=211 here]. -[[User:Aa77zz|Aa77zz]] ([[User talk:Aa77zz|talk]]) 15:42, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
::::I was half-hoping at least one source would reflect on the spaced vs unspaced spelling variants...but no luck after looking. [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 01:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
:::::{{cite journal|jstor=4085449|last1=Parkes|first1=Kenneth C.|title=A Guide to Forming and Capitalizing Compound Names of Birds in English|journal=The Auk|year=1978|volume=95|issue=2|pages=324–326|url= https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/auk/v095n02/p0324-p0326.pdf}} - gives this bit on rules -  ''1A Compound bird names should be spelled as a single word, unhyphenated, if: A. The second component is the word "bird." Examples:   Tropicbird, Frigatebird, Oilbird, Hummingbird, Puffbird.'' [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 06:37, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
:::::::Brilliant. Now to think how to add.... [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 20:13, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

== Passage re possible origin of name is nonsensical  ==

With regard to the following: Glenn's statement  would only make sense if there was evidence that the Dutch/Afrikaans name ''secretaris'' was not itself ultimately derived from Arabic, i.e. there is no reason why Dutch could not have acquired a mutated form of the Arabic name. (Possibly via French, another Romance language, or the Latin commonly used in scientific circles in the early modern era.)

"C. Hilary Fry of Aberdeen University suggested that "secretary" is from the French secrétaire, a corruption of the Arabic صقر الطير saqr et-tair meaning either "hawk of the semi-desert"... Glenn has dismissed this etymology on the grounds that there is no evidence that the name came through French, instead supporting Buffon's etymology; namely, that the word comes from the Dutch secretaris "secretary", used by settlers in South Africa."

I have to say that the hypotheses that the name relates somehow to the appearance/behaviour of the bird, reek of [[folk etymology]]. Fry's hypothesis is far more plausible in terms of linguistics and how [[loanword]]s mutate, in the transition from one language to another.

[[User:Grant65|<span style="color:black">Grant</span>]] &#124; [[User talk:Grant65|<span style="color:black">Talk</span>]] 07:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)