View source for Talk:Super Smash Bros. in esports

{{refideas
|1=''Team Ben: A Year As A Pro Gamer'', Fabiszak, Christopher K., TheBookPatch, 2013 
|2=''Playing with the script: Super Smash Bros. Melee. From a casual game to a competitive game.'', Taelman, J.G.G., [[Utrecht University]], Master thesis, http://dspace.library.uu.nl/handle/1874/311112
|3=''Smash Planet'', Myers, Andy, [[Nintendo Power]], Vol. 195, September 2005, http://imgur.com/a/ijOxG
|4=https://www.thegamer.com/smash-bros-tournament-canceled-nintendo/
|5=https://pressfire.no/artikkel/ber-regjeringen-svare-etter-pressfire-kronikk (government stepping in)
|6=https://www.4gamer.net/games/999/G999905/20231024043/ (news about tournament community guidelines by Nintendo)
|7=https://www.famitsu.com/news/202310/24321631.html (news about tournament community guidelines by Nintendo)
|8=https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2023/10/nintendos-updated-guidelines-for-tournaments-and-content-creation-sparks-community-backlash (news about tournament community guidelines by Nintendo)
|9=https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/nintendo-ceo-explains-decision-not-to-offer-esports-prize-money/
|10=https://www.pressfire.no/artikkel/forbrukerradet-vil-ta-opp-nintendos-regler-med-europeiske-forbrukerorganisasjoner (Norwegian council stepping in)
}}
{{oldafdmulti|date=8 August 2015|result='''no consensus'''|page=Professional Super Smash Bros. competition}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|
{{WikiProject Video games |eSports=yes |Nintendo=yes |class=C |importance=Low}}
}}

== Move to [[Competitive Super Smash Bros.]] ==

Very few players are actually professional by any formal definition of the term, and that means that the using that word in the title is a bit of a cliche and peacock term.--[[User:Prisencolinensinainciusol|Prisencolinensinainciusol]] ([[User talk:Prisencolinensinainciusol|talk]]) 18:57, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''These sources here [http://mashable.com/2015/03/11/apex-15-super-smash-bros/], [http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/12/professional_super_smash_bros_melee_player_talks_smash_4], and [http://tay.kotaku.com/this-is-what-pro-smash-players-think-of-smash-4-1651929127] distinctly mention the term professional, thus the article should be label as such. We can still cover the amateur leagues, as of right now there are players who are sponsored and make a living off the game, in short "professionals". [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 22:02, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

== Current format ==

[[User:Drwoo217|Drwoo217]], the page is unreadable right now. It's impossible to know where you are based on the format. Also you don't need to revert each edit you just go to the last version you want restore that version. I'll correct it to a better format [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 04:47, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
 [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 04:47, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
:{{re|Valoem}} OK, thank you

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to {{plural:1|one external link|1 external links}} on [[Professional Super Smash Bros. competition]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=707068610 my edit]. If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071021125957/http://thephoenix.com:80/Article.aspx?id=28078&page=5 to http://thephoenix.com/Article.aspx?id=28078&page=5

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Cheers.—[[User:Cyberbot II|<sup style="color:green;font-family:Courier;">cyberbot II</sup>]]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;">[[User talk:Cyberbot II|<span style="color:green;">Talk to my owner</span>]]:Online</sub></small> 20:01, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

== [[Wavedash]] ==

I believe wavedashing and wobbling is probably notable enough for a stand alone article any opinions? [[User:UltraDark]], [[User:Drwoo217]], and [[User:Prisencolin]], I believe both have received enough mainstream coverage. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 19:59, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

:{{re|Valoem}} Hard to say, since those two topics are Melee-specific rather than Smash in general. I don't want this page to turn into SmashWiki by adding tech skill. [[User:Drwoo217|Drwoo217]] ([[User talk:Drwoo217|talk]]) 01:01, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
::{{ping|Drwoo217}}, Wavedash and wobbles has received significant mainstream coverage, the game went from being a small competitive game to a game hosted in also every video tournament as a side tournament. Even Hearthstone tournaments have side tournaments for smash and not for other Blizzard games. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 02:27, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
:::{{re|Valoem}} Let's get the inputs of others first. Not a good idea to add something with only one or two people agreeing[[User:Drwoo217|Drwoo217]] ([[User talk:Drwoo217|talk]]) 03:02, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

== This page is way too long ==

Thanks to everyone for their hard work on the page, but it's gotten a bit to large. I'm thinkng a split or possibily removal of certain content. Any thoughts?--[[User:Prisencolin|Prisencolin]] ([[User talk:Prisencolin|talk]]) 16:11, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
:{{re|Prisencolin}} Yes please, the page has gotta so long a bot auto tagged it. It is way past the recommended article length. I would split the tournaments into [[List of Super Smash Bros. Melee tournaments]], [[List of Super Smash Bros. 64 tournaments]], [[List of Super Smash Bros. Wii U and 3DS tournaments]] and [[List of Super Smash Bros. Brawl tournaments]]. (removed major as that is technically undefinable) [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 03:29, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
:Thanks for bringing this up. I've been thinking about this for a while now too, but I tend to stay away from esports pages since they need so much work and are often better described at other wikis and community sites in my opinion. I suggest removing the vast majority of content from the page per [[WP:INDISCRIMINATE]], and because much of it is unnecessary for summarizing competitive ''Smash'' (and is duplicated from other sources that better handle this content anyway). Specifically, I would suggest the following:
:* '''Trimming''' the rule sets section (duplicated from https://smashboards.com/rulesets/)&nbsp;– Dave's Stupid Rule and every other rule aren't necessary for summarizing how the games are played competitively
:* '''Removing''' the rankings section (duplicated from http://www.meleeitonme.com/ssbmrank2015/ and other sites)&nbsp;– players are better described with prose
:* '''Removing''' the tier list section (duplicated from http://www.ssbwiki.com/Tier_list)&nbsp;– characters are better described with prose
:* '''Removing''' the list of largest tournaments (duplicated from http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_largest_Smash_tournaments)&nbsp;– tournament sizes are outside the scope of Wikipedia's coverage, except when providing context for certain events, like Apex 2015
:As for the tournament results sections, I don't believe this content should be split into separate list pages, but rather removed completely (or userfied). [[List of Super Bowl champions]] and other sports pages refrain from including anywhere near this much information, which, again, is advisable per WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Thoughts? —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 20:36, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
::I disagree, we should including rankings though the tier lists are a bit excessive. Listing tournament results is considered standard in sports pages on Wikipedia. A major of the information here is what people are looking for, it should be split not removed. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 23:17, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
:::You should really wait for further comments to be added and consensus to be reached next time. I had just voiced opposition to splitting the page before you went ahead with it and it hasn't even been 24 hours since you posted your response to Prisencolin. —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 23:43, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
::::This page was way too long as it was. I believe that splitting so people can see the final product is better. Keep in mind I was not the one requesting a split, I do however, think this split needed immediate attention. The main issue now is sourcing we should be able to add 10 reliable sources to each list, not all tournaments have secondary sources, but primary should be reliable in this case. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 00:01, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
::{{ping|Prisencolin}} Any comments? —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 18:28, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
:::
* I guess this is alright, although as the scene gets more exposure it might be a good idea to add these back later.
* The SSBM rankings should probably be kept to 10 or 15 players. Smash 4 rankings probably shouldn't be listed at all because they aren't really authoritative or widely accepted.
* I'm not sure how you'd represent a tier list in prose to be honest. I think the tables should stay, at least the ''Melee'' one.
* Again, I guess the Melee list is worth mentioning, and probably Smash 4. The rest probably need to go.
--[[User:Prisencolin|Prisencolin]] ([[User talk:Prisencolin|talk]]) 05:31, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
::64 should stay, Brawl and PM should be merged into [[List of Super Smash Bros. tournaments]] with split article links for Melee, Wii U/3DS, and 64. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 07:34, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
:::If you don't mind clarifying, are you referring to the lists of tournament results that were split the other day, or to the lists of largest tournaments that are still on this page? As a bit of an aside, ''Brawl''{{'}}s competitive scene was about the same size as ''Melee''{{'}}s around the time of its release, while ''64''{{'}}s competitive scene has only started to grow again very recently ([http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/17275981/the-renaissance-smash-64 see this article]). —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 20:07, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
::I'd be in favor of cutting back the ''Melee'' player rankings to the top ten. I agree that the ''Smash 4'' rankings should be removed, and I think the ''Brawl'' ones should be also since they were last updated in 2014 and therefore aren't that relevant. I didn't mean representing the tier list itself in prose, but rather describing the gameplay characteristics of say the top ten characters, and maybe, for example, explaining why Pichu, Bowser, and Kirby are ranked so poorly (if there are sources to back it, of course). I don't have a problem with keeping one or more of the tier lists, but I think we should explain them, not just show them if we're going to do so. Without context they're not especially useful to a reader. I just reviewed [[WP:CSC]], and I'm thinking keeping the separate lists of tournament results for all the games should be fine if we can cite them. Our biggest concern should probably be that right now, nothing in any of the lists is cited, so we're not satisfying [[WP:V]] or [[WP:N]]. —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 20:07, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
:::Melee it on Me listed certain tournaments considered "majors" in their SSBMRank last year, so we could go off that to list the tournaments considered majors.--[[User:Prisencolin|Prisencolin]] ([[User talk:Prisencolin|talk]]) 17:40, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
::::Okay, great. Speaking of that, what are the criteria that have been used to determine which tournaments are considered super majors and get the yellow background? —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 23:04, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

=== Clean up ===
'''Note''': Please see the previous section. We started discussing cleaning up this article three months ago and never really got anywhere, but many of these points have already been brought up. Specifics for what might be trimmed and/or removed were also given. Thanks. —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 17:46, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

It looks like {{ping|Izno}} removed some cruft and cleaned the article which I mostly agree, however I think there should be discussion as to what should be removed. I think it is vital that player rankings remain, tier list should definitely go though. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 14:16, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
:{{ping|Valoem}} Are there [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] to [[WP:V|verify]] or provide [[WP:WEIGHT|appropriate weight]]? --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 14:23, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
::Yes absolutely, here is one for power rankings [http://www.redbull.com/us/en/esports/stories/1331801839585/tafokints-2016-summer-melee-power-rankings Red Bull] and here are a bunch on tier lists [http://moviepilot.com/posts/3772520 Movie Pilot], [http://shoryuken.com/2016/09/05/zero-completes-his-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u-tier-list-high-and-top-tiers-added/ Shoryuken] and [https://www.buzzfeed.com/ahmedaliakbar/a-definitive-ranking-of-all-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u-chara BuzzFeed], so absolutely appropriate weight for it to be included. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 21:35, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
:::MoviePilot isn't an RS--it has no editorial review and appears to be entirely user submitted. Red Bull seems okay in this case. Shoryuken might be but it's blocked at work. The Buzzfeed article isn't a tier list. I'll take a second look later at Shoryuken. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 21:44, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
::::Shoryuken is the organization that runs the [[Evolution Championship Series]], so any information from its site should be perfectly reliable (although that doesn't necessarily mean it provides sufficient weight for inclusion of the player rankings or tier lists or whatnot). —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 23:54, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
:::::I would not agree they're reliable as a third part then but instead as a first party--good for claims about themself but not much else. (Review [[WP:SELFPUB]].) --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 12:53, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
::::::"Shoryuken" is currently classified as "not reliable" per consensus at [[WP:VG/S]], after two separate discussions. [[User:Sergecross73|<span style="color:green">Sergecross73</span>]] [[User talk:Sergecross73|<span style="color:teal">msg me</span>]] 14:28, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
::::::Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Any information from the site should be ''factually accurate'', but it should be treated as a first-party source. Third-party publications are of course preferable. —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 19:47, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
:::::::I wouldn't even treat them as that though. The writers themselves have no credentials, they're just random gamers/fans/enthusiasts who submit stories for the site, and there doesn't appear to be any sort of editorial oversight from the website itself. They seems to be comparable to [[IGN]] or [[GameSpot]] [[WP:USERG|user]] blogs - which we don't allow at all. [[User:Sergecross73|<span style="color:green">Sergecross73</span>]] [[User talk:Sergecross73|<span style="color:teal">msg me</span>]] 20:45, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
::::::::Ah, okay. I was under the impression the site has informed staff writers since it's affiliated with Evo. Of course, without an about page of any sort it's a bit difficult to gauge the writers' qualifications. —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 21:23, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
:::Regardless, these do not support the content presently in the article. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 21:45, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
::::Agreed. As I stated in the above section, I'm in favor of removing the player rankings section and instead describing notable players in the prose. —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 23:54, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
:::::I too support trimming down these ranking lists. They're way too long, and not particularly encyclopedic. If people want to know the rankings, they should go to those particular sites check the charts, not here... [[User:Sergecross73|<span style="color:green">Sergecross73</span>]] [[User talk:Sergecross73|<span style="color:teal">msg me</span>]] 14:32, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
::::::I was wondering what the opinions of some of the content editors were, Wikipedia does in fact list sourced rankings such as [[Pound for pound]]. These ranking are sourced I believe when viewers look from information regarding Smash Brothers competitive scene ranking are something they are looking for. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 02:46, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
:<p>I've undone the revert--it's clear to me that no reliable sources are forthcoming and the editor desiring to keep the content has been provided a week now. We should strive for prose based on reliable sources. {{ping|Valoem}} If you think the content is worth keeping, you should perhaps work on a sandbox to get the content into a good shape.<p>I've also re-redirected [[Smashboards]]; while it "survived" an AFD, it did so with a "no consensus" close. If I had fallen on the "delete" side it probably would have been deleted then. As it is now, I'm at the point where it is definitely desirable to merge the reliably sourced content here--the topics match well and it seems to me that Smashboards is indeed something worth talking about, though perhaps in no-great-amount. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 13:30, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
::See discussion on bottom. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 17:10, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

* [[WP:NOT|WP is a generalist encyclopedia and not a repository for any information]]. If you don't have reliable, secondary sourcing for some set of facts, there is a really good case it isn't noteworthy for a generalist encyclopedia. Repeating this to make a point: If you only have primary and unreliable sources for number of attendees, prize money, etc., then WP is not the place to host that information. Feel free to build such lists elsewhere. These tables need to have such sourcing or they will be removed for [[WP:V|verifiability]]. [[File:Eye close font awesome.svg|14px|link=user:czar/watching|I am no longer watching this page—ping if you'd like a response]]&nbsp;<span style="background:#F0F0FF; padding:3px 9px 4px">[[User talk:Czar|<span style='font:bold small-caps 1.2em Avenir;color:#B048B5'>czar</span>]]</span> 18:07, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

== Merge request for Smashboards ==
{{Discussion top|result=The result was a clear consensus for '''merge'''. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 18:34, 22 May 2017 (UTC)}}
{{ping|Izno}} has expressed a desire to merge Smashboards with this article. I am wholly against the merge, Smashboards has had a notable influence on the community as documented by sources. The prior AfD was closed as no consensus. I am interested in what editors who actively expand the article opinions are here. I am going to ping some active editors [[User:Maplestrip]], [[User:Drwoo217]], [[User:Prisencolin]] and [[User:UltraDark]]. I think Professional Super Smash Bros. competition has some excessive information, but I disagree with the removal of player rankings and the merge of Smashboards. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 17:08, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
:It's fine for you to disagree with the merging of Smashboards into this article—you're right, that wasn't discussed, and reverting Izno's bold merge is acceptable per [[WP:BRD]]. However, it does appear that consensus was achieved for removing the player rankings lists in the section above, and you said the "tier list should definitely go". What reason was there for reverting all of Izno's edits (beyond just the merge)? —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 17:16, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
::Not that many editors have entered the discussion, also Izno's bold merge is fine until I contested and now we have two people disagreeing. Discussion is required and player rankings are clearly important and a reason why people visit the page. The smash tournament records however, is cruft thought there are multiple sources when a smash tournament breaks records. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 17:23, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
:::If they are clearly important, then [[User:Valoem|you]] can produce [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] indicating their [[WP:WEIGHT|importance]], correct? This should not be a difficult request to fulfill if they are indeed "important". --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 17:25, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
::::Let's continue the discussion of whether the player rankings and tournament lists should be removed or trimmed in the above section and leave this section for just discussing the Smashboards merge. —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 17:31, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
:::::{{ping|zziccardi}} That seems a good idea to me. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 17:35, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
:I pretty much disagree with the removal of rankings as well as SmashBoards. Some of the information however has to go. I'm pretty much against the merge. [[User:UltraDark|<font color="2596ca">'''ULTRA-DARKNESS'''</font>]]'''[[User talk:UltraDark|<font color="3487tk"><sup>''':) 2 CHAT'''</sup></font>]] 17:19, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
::{{ping|UltraDark}} Surely you also can produce [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] to [[WP:V|verify]] the rankings. Do you have any such? --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 17:27, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
:::You're right on every corner, MIOM is an unreliable source, as for PG (at least they're actually an organization, XD)... I don't know. The article is pretty excessive though. --[[User:UltraDark|<font color="2596ca">'''ULTRA-DARKNESS'''</font>]]'''[[User talk:UltraDark|<font color="3487tk"><sup>''':) 2 CHAT'''</sup></font>]] 17:33, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
::::Melee It on Me has received coverage from reliable sources ([http://www.redbull.com/us/en/esports/stories/1331689724686/how-one-organization-helped-melee-thrive see here]) and is ''the'' community leadership group for ''Melee''; in other words, its writers are informed, but the site should be considered a first-party source. Do you think we could continue discussing this in the above section and leave this one for talking about the merge? It's better to keep related discussions together. —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 17:39, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
::As for the SmashBoards merge, given that it is an unreliable source, I'd suggest merging it would be okay, but I feel like there might be backlash in doing so. I don't care if there is backlash, but I '''support''' the merge as I don't see much in terms of [[WP:NOTE|notability]] other than a mention from [[Kotaku]].--[[User:UltraDark|<font color="2596ca">'''ULTRA-DARKNESS'''</font>]]'''[[User talk:UltraDark|<font color="3487tk"><sup>''':) 2 CHAT'''</sup></font>]] 17:53, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
* '''Merge''' Smashboards here. The last AfD did not demonstrate [[WP:GNG|significant coverage]] in multiple [[WP:RS|reliable]], [[WP:IS|independent sources]]. <small>([[WP:42|?]])</small> The standard procedure—since the website is best known as a facet of the larger SSB community/professional player community and not necessarily separate from that—is to cover the topic in its own section here, sourced to the few reliable sources we have, and then to expand out to its own article [[Wikipedia:Summary style|summary style]] if and only if there is enough coverage to warrant it. <span style="background:#F0F0FF; padding:3px 9px 4px">[[User talk:Czar|<span style='font:bold small-caps 1.2em Avenir;color:#B048B5'>czar</span>]]</span> 18:01, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
* '''Merge''', per Czar and Izno. —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 18:18, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' per Czar and Izno. [[User:Sergecross73|<span style="color:green">Sergecross73</span>]] [[User talk:Sergecross73|<span style="color:teal">msg me</span>]] 18:40, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' per other users. Since most relable sources that discusss SmashBoards in the context of the competitive smash scene, Smashboards should be redirected here and included as a section om this page. As for the rankings, they should be kepted but probably limited to top 10 or 15.--[[User:Prisencolin|Prisencolin]] ([[User talk:Prisencolin|talk]]) 20:21, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
*I'm personally fairly neutral on the Smashboards situation and have never gotten much of an opinion on it. I do feel that ''this'' article still needs a lot of trimming. Moreover, I am way more worried about the myriad of "tournament results" articles (which are all just a series of tables) than an article about a somewhat notable ''Super Smash Bros.'' forum. ~[[User:Maplestrip|<span style="color:#005080">Mable</span>]] ([[User talk:Maplestrip|<span style="color:#700090">chat</span>]]) 10:53, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
{{Discussion bottom}}

== RFC on inclusion of material in a number of sections ==

{{Rfc top|1=Although this is an easy close and has a clear consensus, I am closing this as requested at [[WP:AN/RFC]]. There is a clear consensus to '''Remove the lists''' from the article. Some have mentioned that they would want it removed only until a reliable source is available, however, that is a minority view and there is no consensus for that. The clear consensus for now is to remove the lists. [[User:Yashovardhan Dhanania|Yashovardhan]] ([[User talk:Yashovardhan Dhanania|talk]]) 15:54, 19 May 2017 (UTC).
*'''Clarification '''(As sought [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AYashovardhan_Dhanania&type=revision&diff=781506200&oldid=781494779 here]): This RFC pertained only to the lists which did not have enough reliable sources to be [[WP:V|verifiable]]. As such, the close only means to remove the tables/other content for which verifiable source did not exist. Other parts of the article shall remain unaffected by the close. [[User:Yashovardhan Dhanania|Yashovardhan]] ([[User talk:Yashovardhan Dhanania|talk]]) 17:26, 21 May 2017 (UTC) }}

Presently, the material in the [[Professional Super Smash Bros. competition#Tier list|tier list section]], the [[Professional Super Smash Bros. competition#Rankings|rankings section]], and in the [[Professional Super Smash Bros. competition#List of largest Super Smash Bros. tournaments|largest tournaments section]] is not [[WP:V|verified]] by [[WP:RS|reliable, secondary sources]] such that the [[WP:WEIGHT|correct weight of those topics is assigned to these sections]]. The users defending their inclusion [[WP:BURDEN|have not provided the necessary reliable sources]]. A previous discussion began at [[#This page is way too long]] and continued in [[#Clean up]] was not conclusive but appears to indicate that the material should indeed be removed (based on the above-cited policies and guidelines).

Should the content continue to exist as it does in the article at present, or should it be removed until such time as reliable, secondary sources are available? --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 19:01, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
*'''Remove lists''' per [[WP:GAMECRUFT]]/[[WP:LISTCRUFT]]. Its not the job of an encyclopedia to replicate all these stats and details. If readers want to read the websites that host these sorts of lists. If no sources are hosting it, then [[WP:V|we shouldn't either]]. [[User:Sergecross73|<span style="color:green">Sergecross73</span>]] [[User talk:Sergecross73|<span style="color:teal">msg me</span>]] 20:03, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
*'''Remove lists'''. The "largest tournaments" section is already covered by [[List of Super Smash Bros. Melee tournaments|the subarticles on the topic]], though those seem very inappropriate too. Honestly, the lists of tournaments probably needs to be reworked entirely, not just from a verifiability perspective, but also from an encyclopedic perspective. The other two lists are clearly inappropriate, as they are only about the most recent developments, rather than showing the historically notable aspects of the rankings or tiers (which would still be crufty). ~[[User:Maplestrip|<span style="color:#005080">Mable</span>]] ([[User talk:Maplestrip|<span style="color:#700090">chat</span>]]) 20:19, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
* I think we're in consensus, but I'd also smash the tournament subarticle lists if they can't be sourced. The largest tournament lists are the only tables I could see worth keeping, but only if their info is verified in a reliable, secondary source. If not, then the info wasn't worth mentioning in a secondary source, nevertheless an encyclopedia. <span style="background:#F0F0FF; padding:3px 9px 4px">[[User talk:Czar|<span style='font:bold small-caps 1.2em Avenir;color:#B048B5'>czar</span>]]</span> 00:31, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
*:I think the "also" is a separate discussion. <small>There {{em|is}} probably sourcing for some of the tournaments, just a) not {{em|all}} of those presently there nor b) all of the information for each of those tournaments.</small> --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 11:54, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
*'''Remove lists''' until there are reliable sources for them.  Even with sources, the three sections mentioned in the first sentence of the RfC would still seem to have undue weight at their current size.  [[User:Egsan Bacon|Egsan Bacon]] ([[User talk:Egsan Bacon|talk]]) 15:33, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - Summoned by  bot. Until the information/lists can be supported in reliable sources. [[User:Meatsgains|Meatsgains]] ([[User talk:Meatsgains|talk]]) 22:57, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' these game results sections. If they are posted on an "official" website, that can be an external link at the bottom of the artile.  That way anyone interested in the statistics will see up-to-date information.  Even if reliable independent sources are discussing the game statistics, this is a reason to describe and/or summarize them, not to compile or replicate them.&mdash;[[User:Anne Delong|Anne Delong]] ([[User talk:Anne Delong|talk]]) 11:06, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
*'''Keep part of list but not all''' Some of the information is overkill which I've been in a agreement for sometime, however these tournaments list and results have been documented by reliable sources as have the Power Ranking, which is the core of the information readers are looking for ... the competitive ranking. I think the parts i remove "List of largest tournaments" and "Tier List" is fine. The other part I believe warrants further discussion. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 14:45, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
*:This is your opportunity to defend the content that is in the article and listed above. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 15:49, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
*:I think we can justify keeping the rankings of the top ten players for ''Melee'' and ''Smash'' on the Wii U, but anything more than that seems excessive to me. —[[user:zziccardi|<span style="color: #006400;">zziccardi</span>]]&nbsp;([[user talk:zziccardi|<span style="color: #808080;">talk</span>]]) 21:30, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
*::Would you not agree the information a reader would be looking for would most likely be tournament results, rankings, and history. We cover all this on sport articles and smash has grown larger enough that it has similar sources coverage such lists, however we need to start adding sources to the tournament results section. I've found over 100 sources so far everyone has been too lazy to add them. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 04:24, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
*:::{{tq|information a reader would be looking for}} is not what Wikipedia is for, for if that were our only goal, we would no doubt necessarily engage in [[WP:OR|original research]], write about [[WP:FRINGE|fringe topics in great length]], and other discussions. "Normal" sports articles being of poor quality (and that poor quality is systemic, regardless of the kind of article you might be reading, whether game, tournament, biography, or team) does not imply that we should be of a similar quality (review [[WP:OSE]]). If you have sources which are [[WP:RS|reliable]], by all means, provide them. I might suggest, however, you actually verify them as reliable by using the list provided at [[WP:VGRS]]. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 14:46, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
{{Rfc bottom}}

== I've trimmed down and added sources ==

I've trimmed to top ten, per discussion and added sources, there are no reliable sources for Brawl, I believe ssbcentral is reliable for 64 rankings, but it does not pass WP:VG/RS. Not sure what to do with those sections, but tournament results and added rankings for Melee and Wii U certainly have sources which pass WP:VG/RS. I started adding sources for tournament results for 2017. There are more sources coming. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 18:05, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

I've just blanked the 64 and Brawl rankings pending further discussion. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 18:15, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
:Current version looks much, much better than the last time I looked at this article, that's for sure. I think keeping in mind the fact that Wikipedia is an [[encyclopedia]] and [[WP:NOT|what Wikipedia is not]] is the important when it comes to what we do and don't include. ~[[User:Maplestrip|<span style="color:#005080">Mable</span>]] ([[User talk:Maplestrip|<span style="color:#700090">chat</span>]]) 19:07, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
::I'm going to restore the section for Smash 64 and Brawl, I believe while ssbcentral is not reliable in establishing notability, it should be enough to be used as a primary source for 64 rankings, along with Smashboards final rankings of Smash Brawl. I've also trimmed it to the top 10. Please let me know if there are any issues. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 23:18, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
:::The RFC specifically concluded that information without reliable sourcing -> not in the article. This is not difficult to understand. So yes, I have a problem with that. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 01:18, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
::::Wikipedia allows primary sources to verify certain content, as per [[WP:PRIMARY]], "Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[4] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. ''A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge.'' For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source." [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 02:43, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
:::::You should generally avoid being selective in your choice to reference certain sections of policy and guideline without referencing others in the same policy or guideline. Review the rest of that paragraph: {{tq|'''Do not''' base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them.}} (emphasis original). Your viewpoint was neither the majority viewpoint nor is your viewpoint now supported by the closure. There are other places for this material, and those places cover it well. {{em|As it is}}, the sources we are using get eyebrows raised at AFD and elsewhere (ref [[WP:Articles for deletion/Buck (video game) (2nd nomination)]]), so we really should attempt to knock primary sources down whenever they pop up in articles on video game-related material. If you've got the secondary source material, let's write a really cool article on what those sources said rather than use these lists to prop the article up. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 02:59, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
::::::But this article isn't based on primary sources, its two lists which appears to pass ''A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge'', does it not? But I do agree with what you are saying, however I do believe these two lists may in fact be better than a descriptive section. I've also inputted my opinion at the AfD you mentioned. [[User:Valoem|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">'''Valoem'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Valoem|'''<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Valoem|'''<span style="color:Green;">contrib</span>''']]</sup> 03:35, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

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== Move discussion in progress ==

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== Mention of the sexual abuse allegation wave? ==

I feel like this is hot right now, and [https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/super-smash-bros-esports-community-rocked-by-rape-allegations/ Digital Trends], [https://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/29399607/sexual-abuse-allegations-surface-fighting-game-community ESPN], and [https://www.shacknews.com/article/119001/multiple-sexual-misconduct-allegations-rock-smash-bros-esports-to-its-core ShackNews] have covered this. Should we add this to the article, while keeping in like with [[WP:BLP]] like ''always''? [[User:PrincessPandaWiki|<span style="color:#FF0090">❤︎'''PrincessPandaWiki'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:PrincessPandaWiki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/PrincessPandaWiki|contribs]])</small> 04:06, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

== Too much focus on Melee ==

Hello! It appears that this article primarily focuses on the history of competitive Smash in Melee, however I feel that this is a bit [[WP:UNDUE]] given that the article title is not "Super Smash Bros. Melee in esports" but rather "Super Smash Bros. in esports" referring to the series in general. So I Feel that the section on Melee's history could be slimmed down and all games could be mentioned. ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze&nbsp;Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze&nbsp;Wolf#6545</sub> 16:08, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
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== Specific order of "Tournament results" ==

Was there already a discussion of which definitive order the "Tournament results" section should be? I have a feeling that it would be more accurate to sort the links chronologically than alphabetically, as a way to reflect the evolution of the series' esports community. [[User:Carlinal|Carlinal]] ([[User talk:Carlinal|talk]]) 01:06, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
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==Wiki Education assignment: Introduction to Technical Writing==
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