View source for Talk:Tridentine Mass

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==gender segregation during Mass==
I don't know where to put the fact that although gender segregation was traditionally practiced, it is not practiced in American Tridentine Mass anymore, although the practice survives in Europe(correct me if i'm wrong)[[User:Akj150|Akj150]] ([[User talk:Akj150|talk]]) 01:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:I can't comment on practices aside from where I have attended Masses, but in no German TLMs, and I have attended them in several Parish churches in Frankfurt, Berlin, Nuremberg, Regensburg, at the FSSP seminary in Wigratzbad, and in two Munich parishes, have I found segregated naves.[[User:Caisson 06|Caisson 06]] ([[User talk:Caisson 06|talk]]) 03:46, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Lima, do you happen to know since when the gender segregation was dropped in America?--[[User:Akj150|Akj150]] ([[User talk:Akj150|talk]]) 16:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:I presume such separation was even less universal in America than in Europe, where it was the practice in some parishes, but not all - in spite of being recommended in the 1917 Code of Canon Law.  In any case, it was not prescribed in the Missal and so is, I think, off-topic.[[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima|talk]]) 18:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
::I'm going to hazzard a guess that it was likely between the world wars. [[User:Caisson 06|Caisson 06]] ([[User talk:Caisson 06|talk]]) 21:23, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Segregation by sex (not gender) was recommended up to the 1917 Code of Canon Law. (Canon 1262.1). It continued after that time as a local custom in many places but has since pretty much stopped. [[User:Sue De Nimes|Sue De Nimes]] ([[User talk:Sue De Nimes|talk]]) 10:20, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

== Page should be titled "Extraordinary form of the Roman Rite" ==
Given that it's most recently been referred to as such by the highest authority on the matter. "Tridentine Mass" as a name for the Mass is historically inaccurate as what is referred to as the "Tridentine Mass" is essentially the same Mass from a thousand years prior to the Council of Trent with all the extra prayers added in over the years removed that made the liturgy too long. There is also an article titled 'Extraordinary form of the Roman Rite' already so perhaps this one should be merged into that one.

:I don't agree that it should be changed. "Extraordinary Form" is a controversial term by coined by Benedict in 2007. "Tridentine Mass" is how it is referred to in most literature and is generally accepted by other prolific Catholic groups such as the SSPX, Sedevacantist, etc. It would make more sense to simply explain the historical consistency of the Roman Rite (prior to the Novus Ordo Rite being called the "Roman Rite") in the article. [[Special:Contributions/71.233.70.210|71.233.70.210]] ([[User talk:71.233.70.210|talk]]) 05:16, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

:Also, "Tridentine Mass" seems to be the preferred term in historical academia, as it dovetails with the [[Counter-Reformation]] theory. I think "Missal of Pope XXX" is preferable for specific references. [[User:Rick Jelliffe|Rick Jelliffe]] ([[User talk:Rick Jelliffe|talk]]) 12:17, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

== refill created broken citations ==

Re: {{diff|Tridentine_Mass|prev|1034446137|this revert}} by Editor [[User:Veverve|Veverve]] whose edit summary stated: {{tq|they are not broken}}
I did not have to look hard to find:
:<code><nowiki>[http://therambleronline.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=86 The Mass of the Consilium and the Mass of the Ages]</nowiki></code>
::[http://therambleronline.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=86 The Mass of the Consilium and the Mass of the Ages]
converted to:
:<code><nowiki>{{Cite web|url=https://www.afternic.com/forsale/therambleronline.com?utm_source=TDFS_DASLNC&utm_medium=DASLNC&utm_campaign=TDFS_DASLNC&traffic_type=TDFS_DASLNC&traffic_id=daslnc&option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=86|title=therambleronline.com|website=www.afternic.com}}</nowiki></code>
::{{Cite web|url=https://www.afternic.com/forsale/therambleronline.com?utm_source=TDFS_DASLNC&utm_medium=DASLNC&utm_campaign=TDFS_DASLNC&traffic_type=TDFS_DASLNC&traffic_id=daslnc&option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=86|title=therambleronline.com|website=www.afternic.com}}
or
:<code><nowiki>[http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/archive_2008_0515_god_was_worshipped_here_today.htm God Was Worshipped Here Today]{{dead link |date=August 2018 |bot=InternetArchiveBot |fix-attempted=yes}}</nowiki></code>
::[http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/archive_2008_0515_god_was_worshipped_here_today.htm God Was Worshipped Here Today]{{dead link |date=August 2018 |bot=InternetArchiveBot |fix-attempted=yes}}
converted to:
:<code><nowiki>{{Cite web|url=http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/archive_2008_0515_god_was_worshipped_here_today.htm|title=God Was Worshipped Here Today}}</nowiki></code>
::{{Cite web|url=http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/archive_2008_0515_god_was_worshipped_here_today.htm|title=God Was Worshipped Here Today}}
or
:<code><nowiki>[https://archive.today/20120915074642/http://www.syonabbey.org/Publications/massapostles.html The Mass of the Apostles]</nowiki></code>
::[https://archive.today/20120915074642/http://www.syonabbey.org/Publications/massapostles.html The Mass of the Apostles]
converted to:
:<code><nowiki>{{Cite web|url=http://www.syonabbey.org/Publications/massapostles.html|archiveurl=http://archive.today/20120915074642/http://www.syonabbey.org/Publications/massapostles.html|deadurl=y|title=The Mass of the Apostles}}</nowiki></code>
::{{Cite web|url=http://www.syonabbey.org/Publications/massapostles.html|archiveurl=http://archive.today/20120915074642/http://www.syonabbey.org/Publications/massapostles.html|deadurl=y|title=The Mass of the Apostles}}
Every one of these examples is broken:
#in the first example, the url is long dead and the domain now for sale, but, AGF, the attached title was the correct title.  ReFill discarded that good title in favor of the content of the {{tag|title}} tags in the seller's webpage
#in the second example, the url was determined to be permanently dead by [[User:InternetArchiveBot|InternetArchiveBot]] but Refill ignored that and created what appears to be a good citation until you click the linked title and end up at a 404 page
#in the third example, the result is obviously broken because {{tlx|cite web}} emits two red error messages which were ignored by the editor who activated Refill; complaints about the {{para|deadurl|y}} problem have been ignored by the original author and subsequent maintainers

Editors who use [[WP:Refill]] are responsible for the edits that it suggests.  It is poor practice to simply accept the tool's suggestions as good edits (they very often are not) and leave behind a mess for other editors to cleanup.  I shall revert Editor Veverve's revert.

—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 23:14, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
:While I was writing the above, Editor [[User:Veverve|Veverve]] has made come changes that I will not revert.  But, there are sill broken citations in the article that [[WP:Refill]] made that someone will have to fix.
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 23:18, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
::{{ping|Trappist the monk}} Everything seems fixed now. Thanks for pointing out the problems. [[User:Veverve|Veverve]] ([[User talk:Veverve|talk]]) 23:35, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

== Scope of article topic ==

This article has a confused and overlapping scope with other articles. The hatnote claims that this article is only about the historical situation and to see [[Preconciliar rites after the Second Vatican Council]]. Yet at the end of this "Tridentine Mass" article we have "Present practice" and lots of stuff about the post-Vatican II, modern up-to-the-minute situation for the TLM. So which is it going to be? [[User:Elizium23|Elizium23]] ([[User talk:Elizium23|talk]]) 08:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

:{{ping|Elizium23}} I have done the split. I think the confusion was due to the [[Preconciliar rites after the Second Vatican Council]] article being created only recently. [[User:Veverve|Veverve]] ([[User talk:Veverve|talk]]) 08:56, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

== Pre-1955 missal and indults ==

“Sometimes the term "Tridentine Mass" is applied restrictively to Masses in which the final 1962 edition of the Tridentine Roman Missal is used, the only edition still authorized, under certain conditions, as an extraordinary form of the Roman Rite Mass.”

I think this is incorrect. I am pretty sure the FSSP and (maybe) the ICKSP have an indult to practise the pre-1955 Holy Week, which doesn’t use the 1962 missal. [[User:Ed is the standard text editor|Ed is the standard text editor]] ([[User talk:Ed is the standard text editor|talk]]) 00:50, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

:ICKSP does use the pre 1955 Holy Week Ceremonies. I go to a parish that is staffed by ICKSP Priests.  [[User:ZackaryH85|ZackaryH85]] ([[User talk:ZackaryH85|talk]]) 00:26, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
::That’s awesome! :) I should probably move to change the article to reflect the indults. [[User:Ed is the standard text editor|Ed is the standard text editor]] ([[User talk:Ed is the standard text editor|talk]]) 01:14, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
:::{{re|Ed is the standard text editor|ZackaryH85}} I'm fairly certain there is evidence to confirm this, but you'd need to a reliable source saying so to add it to the article. I'll have access to a couple resources relevant next month if this question is still something you two are looking to source. ~ [[User:Pbritti|Pbritti]] ([[User talk:Pbritti|talk]]) 01:18, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
::::Thanks! That’s definitely helpful. [[User:Ed is the standard text editor|Ed is the standard text editor]] ([[User talk:Ed is the standard text editor|talk]]) 01:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
::::Thank you so much and any help would be appreciated   [[User:ZackaryH85|ZackaryH85]] ([[User talk:ZackaryH85|talk]]) 02:05, 28 October 2024 (UTC)