View source for Talk:Vilnius University

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==Old talk==
What does "Faculty 	1517" mean on the right side? I suppose that's a typo, isn't it? -- RQ

Wouldnt have time for such, actually would be too lazy.  
What was the author of the first book(in Europe) about rocketry?
He must have studied here.
anyway..  respect--[[User:Vytautas|Vytautas]] 21:27, 2004 Jun 21 (UTC)

:First book about rocketry? They tell tales of such guys in most of the universities I know (well, except for Warsaw University which is relatively new). Probably there was a similar guy in Wilno too... Any details? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 02:44, Jun 22, 2004 (UTC)

Kazimier Siemienowicz  --  Artis Magnae Artileria 1650

After googlin a bit it becomes clear that all these telling tales about such guys have smth. to prove it. It is actually about artilery but contains a chapter about rockets. It was used as a manual for more than a hundred years, was translated to many languages. 

I have found stated(lithuanian source) that there is a source (sort of university book containing names of all students) stating that ''Casimiry Symonowicz'' studied here at the time and got a magister degree. Compare with &#8222;Artis Magnae Artilleriae Pars prima, studio et opera ''Casimiri Siemienowicz'', Eguitis Lithuani, olim artileriae Regni Poloniae&#8230;&#8221;. It is undoubted here that this is the same man.

This man deserver his own page on wikipedia :)

[http://projects.sipri.se/cbw/docs/cbw-hist-pledge.html] -- interesting.

By the way there should be a translation to polish printed in 1963.

:I never heard of this guy but it seems that he was a very interesting personality. I'll prepare an article on him soon. As a sidenote, ther was a [http://aukcjewp.wp.pl/show_item.php?item=27090430 book on him] published in the late sixties, I'll see if I can reach it. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 19:01, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)

== Revert war ==

I must say that I like this article the way it is. I must also say that I'm quite worried by the latest additions by Zinvibudas ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Vilnius_University&diff=13922620&oldid=13921897]). Could someone explain to me:
* Why should we translate all names to Lithuanian, even if those people did not speak that language nor were they using Lithuanised names? I understand that translating foreign names is common in [[Lithuanian language]], but this is English wiki, not Lithuanian.
* Why should we change perfectly working links to already-existent articles to non-UTF compliant links to non-existent articles?
* Also, is adding more POV to this article really necessary? I mean mostly the deletion of the word Poland wherever possible, deletion of mention of the repressions against the university community in 1940 and so on.
I understand that our honourable friend Zinvibudas has his ways, but could someone ask him to discuss his edits '''before''' he starts yet another revert war? [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 10:55, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

This is not English wiki. This is an international wiki and belongs as equally to me as to you. It would have NEVER exceeded 1 million article threshold were it not for the contributions of people from all over the world.--[[User:RokasT|RokasT]] 13:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the general standard of Wikipedia for historical articles is to use the names of cities,etc that were commonly used at the time or of the ruling power. Thus, the names, if anything, should be in Polish. As the above user pointed out, it is intolerable to many Lithuanians to think Vilnius, or Wilno, is for the most part a historically Polish city, and it is sad that some must resort to things like removing mention of its Polish past through means of Lithuanization of names, and deletion of certain inconvinient facts as if this self-deception actually changed the past. That being said, RokasT this is a wiki which is fairly international. Therefore, it would be inappropriate to go around and convert names like Sniadecki and the like to Lithuanian versions as that is the forcing of one's chauvinistic self-deception on others. It would be in good taste to refrain from such edits, and I encourage Zinvibudas to follow that logic. --[[User:24.91.40.69|24.91.40.69]] 02:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

==Image==
[[

Image:GreatCourtyard.jpg|thumb]]

Whenever this page gets unprotected again, this nice image from Commons should be added. [[User:Uppland|u◦p◦p◦l◦a◦n◦d]] 19:46, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


----


== Oldest University in Eastern Europe? ==
Surely not the oldest university in Eastern Europe, since the Jagellonian Unversity in Krakow is at least 100 years older?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Krak%C3%B3w

Krakow is in central Europe, not Eastern! Lithuania is Eastern Lithuania.

:Not according to the map of Europe as stated by the [[U.N.]] [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 02:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

== Logo ==

Would anyone be interested in uploading a better version of the logo than the current one? I could provide it in a lot of formats, including small PNG (with white background), PS or SVG (converted from PS).

my contact address: rimas.kudelis -AT- cr.vu.lt
:By all means, please do so. We welcome all contributions!--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sub> 23:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

== Relevancy ==

The Polish name for this institution is irrelevant in the lead. I left in Stefan Batory (as it is relevant). Whatever historical information concerning VU and Poland is relevant, can be added to the article. And P.P., just curious, was Wroclaw "returned" to Poland or "transferred" to Poland, in 1945, (just like you I don't want weasel wording used either). [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 16:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
:I'd say transferred (it's neutral) - just as Vilnius/Wilno was transferred to Lithuanians in 1939. But since this article states Vilnius was returned, I guess we should be consistent...--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sub> 23:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

==Question==
After [[Soviet invasion of Poland (1939)]], ''Lithuanian language programs and faculties would be established''. What happened to the existing Polish language programs and faculty? Otherwise, an interesting article! PS. Other possible issue: ''the [[Marshal of the Crown]], Kazimierz Lew Sapieha'' was supposed to become one of the sponsors of the university. As it is written, it suggest he was one of the founders - but 1) I cannot find information about 'Kazimierz Lew Sapieha' who lived in 16th century nor about one who was 'marshal of the crown'. There was however [[Kazimierz Leon Sapieha]] (Leon=Lew) who lived in the first half of the 17th century [http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazimierz_Leon_Sapieha_%28syn_Lwa%29], attended the university and was [[Court Marshal of Lithuania]] and [[Marshal of the Sejm]]. I think this needs correction...--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sub> 23:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

:P.P., is that a rhetorical question, ''What happened to the existing Polish language programs and faculty?,'' or are you asking seriously because you don't have even a small clue? If you're serious, I'd say probably the same thing that happened to the faculty and programs at the [[University of Breslau]], in 1945. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 02:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
::It's not rethorical and I'd like a clear, referenced answer. The article states ''However, soon after the city was occupied by the Soviet Union, most of the professors returned, and most of the faculties were reopened on October 1, 1939.'' I do wonder how much they were change than, and how much were they changed after oDecember 13. As for the comparison with Wrocław/Breslau in 1945, do note that most of the (German) city population was expelled, including professors, student and most of the German speakers. This, to my knowledge, was not the case of Vilnius in 1939/1940 (there were expulsions, but I don't think they involved most Polish speakers... or did they?). On a related note, I wonder if there were any courses in foreign languages (particularly Lithuanian) before Sept 1939 at the university? What was the cirriculum for foreign languages anyway than, in Poland and worldwide (but that's a question not for this article to answer).--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sub> 02:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


Vilnius was handed over to Lithuanians on October 27. Before then, the Soviets grabbed most of what they could, including supplies, art, industry, coal, some people etc. - the usual thing you'd expect. Under Lithuanian rule the names of the streets and people's surnames were immediately changed or Lithuanised. Polish social or cultural organisations were dissolved and banned, including all non-primary level education, with the exception of two secondary schools. Polish faculty and students of the university were dismissed. Poles were denied citizenship, and as such were not eligible to work (considered foreigners). About 150.000 Poles were left jobless in the town. --[[User:Lysy|Lysy]]<sup>[[User talk:Lysy|talk]]</sup> 22:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
:Would you have some refs for that? Particularly the dismissal of Polish faculty and students from the university would be certainly useful to this article. PS. [[History of Vilnius]] has this unreferenced yet interesting sentence: ''One of the unfortunate decisions made by Lithuanian authorities in this period was the closure and liquidation of Vilnius University on December 15th, 1939 and conducting a policy of repressions against the inhabitants of the town.''--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sub> 03:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

===Off-topic play by Dr. Dan and Xx236===
:Lysy,doesn't it sound a lot like what happened in [[Breslau]] in 1945. Just substitute Polish for Lithuanians and Germans for Poles, leave Soviets as is? [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 23:00, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
::But Dear Dan, using your logic one could come to the conclusion that Poles tried to conquer the world and exterminate all Lithuanians... I don't see much point in that. And Uncle Joe wasn't in charge, neither (at least, not until 1940...).--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sub> 03:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
:::But Dearer P.P., my logic has nothing to do with who was calling the "shots" or whether "Uncle Joe" was in charge or not. If Lysy is correct, and ''the Soviets grabbed most of what they could, ...The usual thing you'd expect,''... then Uncle Joe would have been in charge. If none of what Lysy stated took place, then an apology to the fewer and fewer Soviet war veterans is in order, from you boys. As for "logically" coming to any conclusion concerning world conquest or extermination, please get some rest, and loosen the collar of your [[żupan]]. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 04:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
::::I took the liberty of splitting your usuall off-topic remarks from the content that is actually relevant to this article. I'd think you'd be familiar with [[history of Vilnius]]; but seeing as you are unaware of parts of it, you may be interested to find out that Vilnius was actually occupied by the [[Red Army]] during the [[Soviet invasion of Poland (1939)]] before being turned over to the Lithuanian government (not for very long at that) - Lysy wrote as much. As it is indeed late, I will not look for sources about looting of Vilnius by Red Army now (hopefully Lysy has some refs handy), although I will offer you this quote from the history of Vilnius article: ''A month of Soviet rule in Vilnius had catastrophic consequences: the city was starving, the museums and archives robbed, the valuables and historic documents were stolen and transferred to Russia, and many people were deported.''. Finally, knowing your love for off-topic arguments, let me give you those two photos of a mostly unrelated event: [http://www.firstworldwar.com/photos/graphics/gws_warsawmetal_02.jpg], [http://www.firstworldwar.com/photos/graphics/gws_warsawmetal_01.jpg] - Russian forces stripping Warsaw of metal before their retreat in 1918. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sub> 04:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
::Yes, Dr. Dan, I think this might be somewhat similar to Breslau. But that Breslau thingy happened later, after all the horrors of WW2, the concentration camps, mass killings of civilians and all the stuff you know. I'm not trying to justify the oppression of Germans in Breslau, but it can be somewhat explained by what the Poles went through. --[[User:Lysy|Lysy]]<sup>[[User talk:Lysy|talk]]</sup> 09:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
''liquidation''? As far as I remeber they expelled (all?) Polish professors and moved the Kaunas University to Wilno. [[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 14:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Answer to dr Dan - Breslau Professors were evacuated by German authorities in a train, the students probably fought against the Red Army so they went to Soviet POW camps after the war. [[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 15:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
:Xx236, is any of your comment researched and verifyable, or just "some of it"? Ever hear of [[Festung Breslau]] and see pictures of the University of Breslau and the University of Vilnius in May 1945? Please try to stay away from inserting your POV into this discussion. You have no idea of what the German students of Breslau did or didn't do, let alone their fates, and whether they were imprisoned in Soviet POW camps or not. And the Breslau professor's train ride, where did that come from? [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 15:16, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Dr. Dan - if you want to say that I'm a liar, do your job - get some reading and go the the right talk page.
[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 07:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
:Now, now, Xx236, no one has called you a liar. Please don't insert you "opinions" about German professors, German students, and Soviet Pow camps with information that cannot be sourced or verified. Also please don't refer to this being off topic, and then continuing to put in more off topic "information". And finally, if you truly do not like "off topic" entries, please chide all editors contributing with off topic remarks and photos equally. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 06:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Pleas don't insert your opinions "about German professors, German students, and Soviet Pow camps with information that cannot be sourced or verified". The German professors were evacuated to Dresden but you keep misinforming the readers.[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 15:01, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
:All of the professors, ten of them, two of them? When were they evacuated to Dresden? What are your sources? Were they killed in the [[Bombing of Dresden]]? Did some stay and fight with the [[Volksturm]]? Did some of them end up in Soviet POW camps? Please be consequential with your edits and in your comments. I don't want anyone to misinform the readers either. And I'm happy to move our discussion off of this talk page. Where would you like to take it? [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 04:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

== The University's international students  ==

Weren't they memebers of minorities in Poland? It's almost impossible that students from Soviet Russia studied in Wilno.[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 14:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

:Yes, I'm also puzzled with this sentence. What is the supposed meaning of "international" there ? Foreign ? What is the source of this information ? --[[User:Lysy|Lysy]]<sup>[[User talk:Lysy|talk]]</sup> 18:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

== Vilnius was returned [1] to Lithuania  ==

It's a biased statement. How a 98% non-Lithuanian city can be ''returned'' to a state created in 1918?[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 15:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
:The same way that you think it ''belongs'' to different state created in 1918. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 15:19, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
::But a little differently than a 99% German city was "recovered"([[Recovered Territories|ziemie odzyskanie]]), by Poland in 1945. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 03:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Dan, this article is about the University, let's concentrate on the subject.  Your opinion about the [[Recovered Territories]] should be placed on the related talk page.

I don't ''think'', I'm writing about documented facts. The modern, nationalistic Lithuanian state was created after WWI. 
[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 07:25, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
:As was Poland. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 05:38, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
::And many other countries. How is that relevant here ? --[[User:Lysy|Lysy]]<sup>[[User talk:Lysy|talk]]</sup> 08:19, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
:::Good question. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 15:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Do not remove info which is directly referenced. [[User:M.K|M.K.]] 11:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

:I can easily find a reference confirming that Vilnius was occupied by Lithuania. Do you want this ? Why are you doing this, M.K ? --[[User:Lysy|Lysy]]<sup>[[User talk:Lysy|talk]]</sup> 16:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
::What are you talking about? Do you separate difference between words "occupation" and "return"? [[User:M.K|M.K.]] 17:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
:::M.K., why don't you just back down? Lysy can certainly find a reference that Vilnius is occupied by Lithuania, and a reference that Lithuania occupied Vilnius again in 1991, (like we were recently informed). Haven't you learned that there are a "plethora" of [[tygodniks]] out there proving everything except that ''if one's Aunt had a moustache she'd be your Uncle''. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 21:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
:OK, let me rephrase this. I understand that your personal POV is that Vilnius was "returned" , you believe it and you dismiss any other POV. However as a wikipedia editor, you should try to avoid taking sides. It's much better to avoid terms like "returned" in such contexts if not absolutely necessary. Using such words does not add any valuable information to the article itself. On the contrary, it might suggest that Vilnius belonged to Lithuania before WW2, which is not true, as it was in Poland. Other than that, I'm sure you know that the Soviets did not "return" Vilnius to Lithuania but first occupied it and then traded for their military presence in the country. --[[User:Lysy|Lysy]]<sup>[[User talk:Lysy|talk]]</sup> 08:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
::First, you making personal attack here, stop this now! Second why you failed to see that word is directly referenced?  And why do you not consulting with other English sources which uses same formulation? And stop accusing me with one sided approach, you have been warned. [[User:M.K|M.K.]] 09:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry but I don't see any personal attack, I'm only trying to explain the problem to you. I also fail to understand your warning. Can you elaborate on this so that your warning is clearer to me ? --[[User:Lysy|Lysy]]<sup>[[User talk:Lysy|talk]]</sup> 10:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
:Accusation of one side then is supported by neutral sources. [[User:M.K|M.K.]] 10:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
::Pardon ? --[[User:Lysy|Lysy]]<sup>[[User talk:Lysy|talk]]</sup> 10:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
::: You directly accused my being one sided ''you believe it and you dismiss any other POV.'' [[User:M.K|M.K.]] 10:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

M.K, nobody is 'attacking' you - your command of English is poor and you misunderstand others, in turn accusing them of things they didn't commit (which now can be seen as personal attack). Please stop 'ad hominen's' and concentrate on the content issue at hand.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sub> 18:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

== Vilnius was transferred [1] to Lithuania which considered the previous eighteen years as an occupation by Poland of its capital. ==

This article is about the University. Wouldn't be better to move the information to [[Vilnius]]? If the Lithuanian POV is quoted here, why not the data about the population of the city?[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 15:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
:Are you suggesting that the Polish POV is not being "quoted" here? And although I agree that the "data" regarding the composition of the population is somewhat OT regarding this article, I fail to understand why you and the ''loyal oppostion'' continue to bring it up here. And maybe you, Xx236, can answer my question on this page, or wherever you think would be more appropriate, if not here. This "disputed" data that Vilnius was a 2% Lithuanian city does not jive with Pilsudski's proclamations to the inhabitants of the city bilingually. Why would this be done for a mere 2% of the population? [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 04:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

::I remember once you suggested you were a historian... dubious, but what the heck: just check the censuses for yourself (they are in one of the articles you criticised if you're lazy or too far away from any decent library). And then check the title of the proclamation (that would be enough, you don't have to read it all) and then check whether you still want to ask the same question. ''<span style="color:#901;">//</span>''[[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 09:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
:::Aside from your insulting demeanor, you have not answered the question. And please, the answer to my question would benefit everyone who might be interested, not just myself. Riddles, and guessing games seem to be more to your liking. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 15:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC) 
Dan, if you don't like any POV, oppose it.  
[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 13:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
:Been doing that for sometime now. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 15:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
::Without citing any sources, just insulting those who provide ones you don't like. This is not a good strateg, Dan. As for the word 'transfer', it [http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0231128193&id=EBpghdZeIwAC&pg=RA9-PA388&lpg=RA9-PA388&dq=Wilno+transferred+Lithuania&sig=9vna8gE5i50_uPyXWcguW55Prdk#PRA9-PA388,M1 is used] by a very respectsble historian, [[Norman Davies]] (the entire paragraph is definetly worth reading, btw).--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sub> 13:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Supporting anti-Polish POV is something different than supporting NPOV. "in the Lithuanian city of Vilna" (1906) - Wow!
[[Paneriai]] - the removal of Poles and Russians from the list of victims, ''fact'' about  after the [[Ypatingasis būrys]] link. The article quotes Lithuanian source. What is your question? 

[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 14:17, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Supporting pro-Polish POV is also different than supporting NPOV - as for [[Lithuania]]n city take a look into link, and I would doubt that any other nation (except Polish, of course) would argue that this city is in Lithuania - take a look at any map form 13th till 20 th century (except, of course 1920-1939), and the weasel name Central Lithuania was chosen not because those people did love Lithuania, but because of the historical name of that area. And Republic of Lithuania did clearly state that this is city of Lithuania, and even Pilsudsky agreed on that on Suwalki cease fire. I do exactly know that it has never been city of Poland (except again 1922-1939), and was never perceived as such (except, maybe, harsh Polish nationalists like endecja). And now you're trying to prove it otherwise. It's ridiculous.--[[User:Lokyz|Lokyz]] 15:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

::All right, Dan, I'll give you the benefit of a doubt once more and reply to your question. First of all, the proclamation was issued not to the Lithuanian inhabitants of Vilna, but [[:Image:MWP Pilsudski odezwa.JPG|to the inhabitants of the former]] [[Grand Duchy of Lithuania]]. Compare the areas and you'll see why the bilingual version. Also take note that the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania included also Lithuanian lands, such as Samogitia, where Poles were but a minority. ''<span style="color:#901;">//</span>''[[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 12:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
:::As for giving me ''the benefit of the doubt'', keep in mind this is an open discussion rather than a private one, and many things that you and I are aware of are being presented to others (maybe even for the first time). Regarding the proclamation, I suppose the Lithuanian inhabitants of Vilnius were not targeted by the proclamation, and therefore irrelevant. And please do not negate the fact that a significant number, a very significant number of Lithuanians were multi-lingual. Which is the heart of the matter anyway. Some in this discussion think if you can speak Polish, you're Polish. That's simply not the case. One of my roomates at UJ, Samuel U, was from Nigeria, and his ability to speak Polish was very impressive. And let me remind you that the Lithuanian Jews in Vilnius and the rest of Lithuania were just that [[Lithuanian Jews]]. Let me give you the benefit of the doubt too. Are you Polish, or a Jew, or a Polish Jew? If you had ancestors in Warsaw during the Partitions, were they Polish Jews or Russian Jews or just Jews? Try to be logical and consequentual in your thinking when you answer this question. Why this distinction regarding these Lithuanian Jews? Or the claim of XX% Poles, XX% "Jews", XX% Lithuanians, XX% Belarusians, XX% Russians? This special designation of these citizens smacks of something strange in my way of thinking. Maybe it's because there is a different mentality in the U.S. (my home base), considering this matter. Perhaps if you pause and think about this you can open your thought processes to a different POV. The only way this edit war will stop, and the WP project regarding the overlapping histories that Poland and Lithuania share, is when this relentless campaign to belittle and deny the uniqueness of Lithuania (as opposed to being conjoined to Poland), its history and geography stops. It unfortunately smacks of those trying to do the same to Poland. Truly a pity. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 14:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

::::On the topic of sharing, why do you [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Operation_Wilno&diff=105595107&oldid=105552691 refuse] to 'share' the Jews of Vilnius with the Poles (and Russians...)? Please explain what are your reasons for arguing that the Jews in the city where majority were Poles and minority were Lithuanians should be classified as [[Lithuanian Jews]] (especially when the footnote explains it quite clearly that such labels are misleading)?--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sub> 21:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::Someday you'll let your "better-half" answer my questions himself. In the meantime, the answer to your question is simple; Jews in France are [[French Jews]], and in Russia, [[Russian Jews]], and in Lithuania, [[Lithuanian Jews]]. Too bad you didn't focus like a laser on the more important aspect of my edit. That was that the constant denial of the uniqueness of Lithuania and it people, resembles [[anti-Polonism]], by those who denigrate Poland over and over again. Truly a pity. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 00:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::You may be suprised to read [[Lithuanian Jews]] article. From the lead: ''the term Lithuanian Jew, or (in Yiddish) Litvisher or (in Hebrew) Litaim often means someone who follows [certain] approaches, rather than someone from Lithuania.''. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sub> 03:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::The operative words in the sentence being ''often means'' (probably should be "sometimes means"). Big deal, it negates nothing. Guess it could apply to Polish Jews or Danish Jews as well. And again too bad you didn't "focus like a laser" on the more important aspect of my edit. Truly a pity. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 14:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

==Now it Gets Interesting==

An administrator tells us in his above comment that I ''insult'' contributors by challenging their POV. First of all, I primarily challenge some of them, because false POV and historical inaccuracies are a detriment to the WP project. If that insults someone, that's a psychological issue that they must deal with themselves. Unfortunately this administrator often peppers his POV with great falsehoods as well. As proof of this I offer this flurry of his contributions to the recently added [[Antoni Bohdziewicz]] article and it's talk page as a concrete example. Perhaps we can take this matter to that talk page. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 16:24, 8 February 2007 (UTC) P.S. Transferred or returned, doesn't bother me. Vilnius is where it belongs, with the name that it has.  P.P.S. Davies is a nice man. We used to shop at the same [[Pewex]] in Cracow.

== Vilnius is where it belongs, with the name that it has ==

If it isn't Lithuanian POV, what it is? 

*The city has many names, a Polish one and a Jewish one, too. 
*The city is mainly Lithuanian as the result of the mass executions and expulsion of Poles. Do you approve those mass executions and expulsion? 
[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 08:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

:Gee, Polish majority again, what an selctive attention. Check your sources, the city had majority of Jews, not Poles. After annexation in 1922 there was massive immigration (one  would call it colonization) of Vilnius: more than 200 thousand Poles came from Poland to Vilnius region. And at the time Lithuanian schools in the region were closed, teachers and priests were imprisoned and libraries and schools were burned. Is this the Polish justice way?

:And after WWII soviets forbade Lithuanians to move to Vilnius, to not have too many Lithuanians there, and expulsions - well, the material I've read states, that most of repatriated people did it on their own will (unlike those, who were forced out from former Prussia i and Silezia), and that there were much more more wiling to leave, than actually did [http://www.istorija.lt/lim/stravinskiene2004en2.html].    
  
:As for "Vilnius is where it belongs, with the name that it has" - it's a fact, or do you want to change borders, or even recapture Vilnius by military force to be where it belongs in your POV? Go read some books before acting as an expert. Have good day at a library, Wikipedia talk page is not reference board, and I do not have time to answer all of your questions.--[[User:Lokyz|Lokyz]] 10:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

w*"Vilnius University" article isn't the right place to discuss if mass executions of Jews and Poles and expulsion of Poles is the right way to Lithuanize the city. 
*The term ''repatriated'' is a Communist propaganda, why are you using it? 
*The poeple were running away from the Soviet Union, not "on their own will". The same thousands of ethnic Lithuanians run away to Poland, USA, Western Germany. 
[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 11:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
[[User:Xx236|Xx236]]

:Read some books, before asking ignorant questions again, this is not a chat room.--[[User:Lokyz|Lokyz]] 12:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Lokyz, I find your comment offensive. BTW - I haven't asked any questions above, I'm informing you that you aren't right - it's something totally different. The question ''why are you using it'' is rhetoric, please replace it by ''Plese don't use Communist propaganda vocabulary''.[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 13:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
::The word ''repatriate'' preceeds Communism by quite a long time. Everyone has a POV, the problem is when it leaves the talk page and is incorporated into an article with a mixture of half-truths and blatant falsehoods. Then the WP project suffers. And this "discussion" has gone way OT to the subject matter at hand. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 15:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

:Before informing me, inform yourself, please. Read some decent third party books, not Polish propaganda. if you find offensive reading some research, I wonder what are you doing in wikipedia? Statements like "something totally different" not supoported by any argument here are called POV or weaselising. --[[User:Lokyz|Lokyz]] 15:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
::How someone born in Wilno can be ''repatriated'' to Toruń or Gdańsk? This Wikipedia should be written precisely, i.e. words should be used according to their meaning.[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 13:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
:::The same way they were repatriated to [[Szczecin]] and [[Wroclaw]] and a "plethora" of  " [[Recovered territories|Ziemie odzyskanie]]. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 20:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

::Lokyz, please avoid personal attacks. Dr. Dan can tell you what do they lead to. Xx236 asked you some civil questions, please either reply in a civil manner - or don't.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sub> 18:58, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

:Stop pushing me with that favorite [[WP:CIV]] of yours - I did nothing incivil - I was even very mild, compared to your favorite Halibutt behavior, so no need to scare me or show your superiority. I do doubt that suggestion to read some books is incivility. i did it because, the question was addressed to me, and I'm busy right now and do not have time to argue with someone's babling without arguments, (that is on the verge of trolling). Have a good day.--[[User:Lokyz|Lokyz]] 20:37, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
::Accusing someone of ignorance, babbling and trolling is clear incivility. On the sidenote, Halibutt has never been incivil in such a way as you are almost daily.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sub> 21:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
:::First of all stop accusing people all around wikipedia, such behavior problems were discussed in your [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Piotrus]]. Interesting how P.P. classified  Xx236 comments as ''"some civil questions"'' , quite interesting "civil" "questions" indeed - ''The city is mainly Lithuanian as the result of the mass executions and expulsion of Poles. Do you approve those mass executions and expulsion?''; ''The term ''repatriated'' is a Communist propaganda, why are you using it?''. Talking about disruptive edits of [[user:Halibutt]], I would like to point to Prokonsul this  : [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AOperation_Wilno&diff=104541385&oldid=104468639]. Do you P.P also stand by accusation that ''Lithuanian annexation took place in 1991''? [[User:M.K|M.K.]] 21:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
::::Dr. Dan can tell you where that attempt at censoring him led to. Nowhere. Except to be thrown out, and this "new" venue to "investigate" people thrown out with it. And I should hope some embarrassment for the under handedness of the originator of this very sad event. But I wouldn't count on it. My advice is ''Be not afraid''! [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 00:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

When I see a fur coat, I ask how many animals have been mistreated to make the fur coat. Some people accept the price of animal suffering and admire the beauty of it, I ask them the incivil question - Do you approve the suffering? When I see "Vilnius is where it belongs, with the name that it has" I ask how many people died or were expelled to make the city as it is. I ask the incivil question "Do you approve those mass executions and expulsion?" and don't obtain the human aswer "No, I don't, I remember the victims". [[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 14:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

== which considered the previous eighteen years as an occupation by Poland of its capital. ==

This article is ''Vilnius University''. The history of the city should be discussed in [[Vilnius]]. If the above Lithuanian POV has to be here, the same a Polish POV should be included.
[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 13:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
:How nice of you to notice, ''This article is "Vilnius University"''. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] 20:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Dr Dan, yes, this article is about the University, not about your ego.
[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 14:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

== Oldest Lithuanian book ==

Oldest Lithuanian book, Luther's small cathecism translated by Martynas Mazvydas, was printed in 1547, not in 1595. Furthermore, I seriously doubt whether this Jesuit institution printed works of Lutheran Mazvydas.

Yes, that That was mistake, ir was book of Mikalojus Daukša, oldest (surviving) printed Lithuanian book in Lithuania proper .--[[User:Lokyz|Lokyz]] 16:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

== Republic of Central Lithuania ==

Republic of Central Lithuania was annexed by Poland in 1922, not in 1919, like this article claims.

== V. Kapsukas Vilnius State University ==

Wasn't that the legal name? [[User:Xx236|Xx236]] 14:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

== Soviet propaganda ==

Please, don't rewrite the article without former discussion.[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] ([[User talk:Xx236|talk]]) 13:54, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

== It's rather difficult to imagine ==

That they were no Polish-speaking students at this University as the article now implies. It's rather obvious they were.
--[[User:Molobo|Molobo]] ([[User talk:Molobo|talk]]) 21:21, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

:Hm? I do not think, that there is a an implication, that there were no Polish speaking students. Article simply says, that Academy run by [[Society of Jesus|Jesuits]] was teaching in [[Latin language|Latin]], and all students to attend the Academy had to be fluent in Latin. Carpe diem.--[[User:Lokyz|Lokyz]] ([[User talk:Lokyz|talk]]) 22:01, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

== Faults, erroneus unreliable source ==

Pay attention on very suspicious section about alma mater vilnensis.

''The first rector of the Academy was Piotr Skarga. He invited many scientists from various parts of Europe and expanded the library, with the sponsorship of many notable persons: Sigismund II Augustus, Bishop Walerian Protasewicz, and the Marshal of the Crown, Kazimierz Lew Sapieha. Lithuanians at the time comprised about one third of the students (in 1568 there were circa 700 students), others were Germans, Poles, Swedes, and even Hungarians.'' (Zinkevičius, Zigmas (1988). Lietuvų kalbos istorija (Senųjų raštų kalba). Vilnius: Mintis. pp. 159. {{ISBN|5-420-00102-0}}.)

Is this reliable source? How King Sigismund (died in 1572) could sponsor academy founded in 1579? Kazimierz Lew Sapieha was not a Marshal of the Crown but Court Marshal of Lithuania. Lithuanians at the time comprised about one third of the students (in 1568 there were circa 700 students), others were Germans, Poles, Swedes, and even Hungarians. Its not true - Lithuanians at the time comprised about one third because Poles comprised two-thirds... [[User:Mathiasrex|Mathiasrex]] ([[User talk:Mathiasrex|talk]]) 23:07, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

:This section is speaking of the Academy, opened in 1570. The second part of the 'He invited...' sentence refers to sponsorship of the library. That Sigismund's donations were important is echoed in this UNESCO document [http://portal.unesco.org/ci/en/ev.php-URL_ID=25426&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html]. He willed a large collection to the Academy [http://www.spaudos.lt/Istorija/Libraries.en.htm].

:WRT to [[Kazimierz Leon Sapieha]] - his wp article has no references; I'll just take the description as Marshall of the Crown out, since I'm not interested in sifting thru the titles of the era, which I don't see as that important here. He did make major donations to the library [http://www.mb.vu.lt/en/1227].[[User:Novickas|Novickas]] ([[User talk:Novickas|talk]]) 16:10, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
:WRT your <s>second</s> third objection - I presume the WP author of that text was following the source (can't check since it doesn't offer any views on Google book). If the source specified a percentage of Lithuanians, followed by 'other nationalities included...' - but did not break out the percentages of others - we have to follow that; can't say 2/3 were Poles without a source. I will leave a note for the author. You could probably put Poles at the head of the list of others without encountering objections. [[User:Novickas|Novickas]] ([[User talk:Novickas|talk]]) 15:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

:: This erroneus statement about library repeats even UNESCO. In 1570 the Jesuits founded the Collegium Vilnense, which in 1579 was raised to the rank of academy. Thus, The Vilnius University Library could not be established in 1570. One of the most rudimentary work about history of Vilnius University Józef Bieliński, Uniwersytet Wileński 1579-1831, vol.I Kraków 1899-1900 is unveiling well known fact that two-third of its students were Poles.
[[User:Mathiasrex|Mathiasrex]] ([[User talk:Mathiasrex|talk]]) 17:36, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

::: Actually it is more assumption than a fact. Jesuits tend to have rotation between their schooling institutions - and that did apply to the students as well as to the professors. That is why there were so many different nationalities in the academy. And 2/3 Poles is rather a wishful thinking (btw, what are Poles in the context? Polish speaking people or people from Polish Crown? Was it really important in 17th century, or it became important in 19th?).
::: And a library, most probabbly was established with Collegium, and it went forth - into academy, university and so on. It is the same library, just the name changed.--[[User:Lokyz|Lokyz]] ([[User talk:Lokyz|talk]]) 23:52, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

::Sorry, but I think UNESCO is a good enough source for the establishment of the VU library. I've never seen a source that did not make a direct connection between the 1570 College and the University. If you have some other source that contradicts this, you could put it in.

::Józef Bieliński, Uniwersytet Wileński 1579-1831, vol.I is online in full and searchable [http://books.google.com/books?id=31AoAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false]. So if you can find the two/thirds sentence(s) in there, you could put that in, I'd want to see the page number tho. (I didn't find dwa trzec but my Polish is pretty sketchy, Lokyz's seems better, so he could vet the material). [[User:Novickas|Novickas]] ([[User talk:Novickas|talk]]) 13:10, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

== name    ==

"Wilno University" is used in reference to the institution in historical context [http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Wilno+University%22&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1], including in general and noteworthy works such as Timothy Snyder's Reconstruction of Nations [http://books.google.com/books?id=xSpEynLxJ1MC&pg=PA76&dq=%22Wilno+University%22&hl=en&ei=G8NyTYD8DsH48Aao16XyAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22Wilno%20University%22&f=false]. For comparison, also see the article on [[Wroclaw University]] which has the German (and Latin) name included. There's no reason to not include "Wilno University", please stop removing it.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 23:24, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Re: [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Vilnius_University&diff=prev&oldid=417914836] - I don't see "Wilno University" anywhere.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 06:59, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

== third opinion ==

Since Lokyz and Dr.Dan are reverting blindly without engaging in discussion and citing an irrelevant wikipedia policy as justification in their edit summary I am going to ask for third opinion on this.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 16:03, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Here are specific comments addressing the issue:

#Per [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#Alternate_names]]: ''Nevertheless, other names, especially those used significantly often (say, 10% of the time or more) in the available English literature on a place, past or present, should be mentioned in the article, as encyclopedic information.''. This name is used significantly often in available English literature.
#"Wilno University" is used in over '''one thousand''' works [http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Wilno+University%22&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1#sclient=psy&hl=en&tbo=1&tbs=bks:1&q=%22Wilno+University%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&fp=cb0e94edbb6a6df8]. If we include ""Wilno University" Lithuania" in order to screen out potentially non-English works we get 320+ English language works [http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Wilno+University%22&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1#hl=en&ds=bo&sugexp=ldymls&pq=%22wilno%20university%22&xhr=t&q=%22Wilno%20University%22%20Lithuania&cp=28&pf=p&sclient=psy&tbo=1&tbs=bks:1&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=%22Wilno+University%22+Lithuania&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&fp=cb0e94edbb6a6df8].
#Many of the English language books which use the term "Wilno University" are recent so this isn't just a question of changing usage over time (which by itself would be sufficient to include the alternative name). For example [http://books.google.com/books?id=iz3NACNOpCAC&pg=PA162&dq=%22Wilno+University%22+Lithuania&hl=en&ei=36V3TaCdD4HkrAGPifm-Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Wilno%20University%22%20Lithuania&f=false] (1994, "Wilno University was the Alma Matter of Mickiewicz, Milosz, and many other great Polish figures." - this also shows the place's connection to Poland), [http://books.google.com/books?id=5pAwqsSyTlsC&pg=PA21&dq=%22Wilno+University%22+Lithuania&hl=en&ei=36V3TaCdD4HkrAGPifm-Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Wilno%20University%22%20Lithuania&f=false] (2006), [http://books.google.com/books?id=xSpEynLxJ1MC&pg=PA99&dq=%22Wilno+University%22+Lithuania&hl=en&ei=36V3TaCdD4HkrAGPifm-Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Wilno%20University%22%20Lithuania&f=false] (2004, this is a very widely read and cited work), [http://books.google.com/books?id=lmld75blKCwC&pg=PA36&dq=%22Wilno+University%22+Lithuania&hl=en&ei=36V3TaCdD4HkrAGPifm-Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&sqi=2&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22Wilno%20University%22%20Lithuania&f=false] (2009), [http://books.google.com/books?id=r-fXgmb5EmEC&pg=PA203&dq=%22Wilno+University%22+Lithuania&hl=en&ei=36V3TaCdD4HkrAGPifm-Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&sqi=2&ved=0CF0Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=%22Wilno%20University%22%20Lithuania&f=false] (2006) and so on.
#This is just a routine application of Wikipedia's standard naming policies - in fact, there really shouldn't be a need for opening a 3rd Opinion request - and that's how it works everywhere else on Wikipedia. For example see [[University of Wrocław]], where we have "Universität Breslau" in the lede and so far nobody has objected. At the very least there should be a consistency here.
#The University had been part of Poland and was the Alma Matter of many famous Poles, as indicated already above. Hence it is common sense to include "Wilno University" in the lede.
#The objection to the inclusion has been made that "Wikipedia is not a dictionary" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_is_not_a_dictionary]. However, if one actually reads the "not a dictionary" policy page it is obvious that is completely irrelevant here. It says nothing about alternative names. It is mostly concerned with what '''subjects''' are appropriate for Wikipedia. And I have asked repeatedly for the editors making this argument to point out specifically the part of the policy which applies here but all I've gotten so far is a refusal to discuss and continued blind reverting with the policy being mis-invoked again and again.
#There really is no reason NOT to include the alternative name? What is the damage that would do? Would anything bad happen? Would our readers be misinformed? No. It is really hard to come up with a reasonable objection (of course I can readily think of several unreasonable ones, as evidenced before).

Did I mention that the name "Wilno University" is widely and extensively used in English language sources?[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 16:20, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

*See [[Wikipedia:Lead#Usage_in_first_sentence]] - "Alternatively, if there are more than two alternative names, these names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section; it is recommended that this be done if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves. Once such a section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line." [[User:Novickas|Novickas]] ([[User talk:Novickas|talk]]) 17:41, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

:I would think that's fine if it was just one among many names that are '''occasionally''' used in English language sources, but both "Wilno University" and "Vilna University" are used quite extensively. As an aside, the names section is possibly incorrect, I think it - it was a "''Jesuit Academy of Vilnius''" (actually English sourced do call it "Jesuit Academy of Wilno", [http://books.google.com/books?id=ZcavoW8-uFMC&pg=PA251&dq=%22Jesuit+Academy+of+Wilno%22&hl=en&ei=wL13Tes-z_6sAf7Xze8J&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Jesuit%20Academy%20of%20Wilno%22&f=false]") essentially from 1570 until 1579 when it became the "Academy of Wilno" ([http://books.google.com/books?id=ngUnAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Academy+of+Wilno%22+1579&dq=%22Academy+of+Wilno%22+1579&hl=en&ei=EL53Tb_JEsTurAHj8anPCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&sqi=2&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBA]).

:BTW, are you planning on making the same argument at [[Wroclaw University]]?[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 17:55, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
:::The point is that it has had several official names in several languages over its history - Latin, Polish, Russian, Lithuanian. All are significant as official names and there are more than three, which per lead recommendations calls for a separate section. And it doesn't have the Russian version of Imperial University, or the Polish version of Sefan Bathory U, or the Russian version of Vilnius State University of Vincas Kapsukas yet. [[User:Novickas|Novickas]] ([[User talk:Novickas|talk]]) 18:36, 9 March 2011 (UTC) 
:::Yes but also note the close connection to Poland as indicated in sources given above. Also, let me ask you about "Wroclaw University" again - thoughts?[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 18:43, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
::::I think that the best solution is expansion of the lead with a section on the university's history, in which we will mention historical names in their contexts. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 00:48, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

::But nobody is removing the German and other names from the lead there... I wonder why? --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 18:12, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

:::Whether someone is "removing German and other names from the lead there" is irrelevant to this discussion. Keep wondering. As if articles are supposed to be cloned to others to justify and serve some agenda. They are not. You formulated a "guideline" [[WP:NCGN]], some years ago, which is continually being invoked to justify placing Polish language names into every Lithuanian entity on English Wikipedia, [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Burbi%C5%A1kis&diff=417008973&oldid=416918987 recently] even a village (pop.7). The current name for the university is sufficient for the lead on English Wikipedia. The "names" section adequately provides information on the university's  other historical names. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] ([[User talk:Dr. Dan|talk]]) 16:57, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

My question was for Novickas, and I would still appreciate an answer.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 03:07, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
::This talk page is for discussing improvements to the Vilnius University article. Short answer tho, I have no plans to edit the article you mention. [[User:Novickas|Novickas]] ([[User talk:Novickas|talk]]) 14:30, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
:::I don't expect you to edit the article, but do you think that the same argument applies there? I'm asking about consistency in naming across Wikipedia, which I think is part of the relevant issue here.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 15:46, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
::::Yes, I think all articles ought to follow WP:Lead, which emphasizes concision and readability, but leaves room for an entity's multiple names by way of a dedicated name section. [[User:Novickas|Novickas]] ([[User talk:Novickas|talk]]) 17:03, 11 March 2011 (UTC) 
:My response was to P.P., and his wondering why. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] ([[User talk:Dr. Dan|talk]]) 05:20, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

====Comment from an uninvolved editor====
Hi; I came in response to your request over at [[WP:3O]].<br>
*In some cases I would be happy to put the alternate name in the lede, but in this case we have quite a large "names" section at the top of the article; I think the alternate name is best placed there, and I doubt it's quite prominent/official enough to be promoted out of that section into the lede (though it's a close call).
*As an aside: There appear to be a gap in the timeline between 1832 and 1919. Maybe mention the closure at this point? Also, the timeline of names tells some interesting history in itself, so it might be a good idea to wikilink some terms (even if they are already linked from the later "History" section).
*It may also be helpful to wikilink to [[History of Vilnius]], which discusses the complex subject in more detail - we can hardly retell this history in standalone text in every different article that relates to Vilnius.
*If the lede was greatly expanded, maybe it would be reasonable to include the alternate name at that point, but for the moment the short and slightly awkward lede (which is a consequence of the long and slightly awkward history) is probably not the best place for it.
This kind of discussion often becomes difficult - frustrated editors start sniping at each other or start acting passive-aggressively - so I have to commend you all on staying civil and [[WP:AGF|assuming good faith]]. Well done; it's not always easy to keep a cool head. [[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 17:37, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
:The recent "''Wilno/Vilna/Vilnius''" frenzy in the "names" section looks silly, and I doubt it accurately reflects what sources say. [[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 01:15, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
:::I agree that the "Wilno/Vilna/Vilnius" thing in the names section is unnecessary, but this is precisely why it would just be better to put "Wilno" and "Vilna" once in the lede and be done with it (note that the "names" section was a lot different when I posted the 3O request) - and just have the "official latin name" in the names section.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 03:06, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
::::I think that all of that is better done - once - in the names section. However, my third opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it {{=)}} [[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 10:04, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
::::Renata3 and I have made some efforts at condensation and concision. The number of refs in the name section is absurd, but I'm loath to remove them, they could be used elsewhere in the article sometime. I don't care about the ordering of the EN version of the city name in these entries - I was going to sort them by their appearance in the refs, but many are offline, so no can do. I suppose they're all relevant, so maybe ref order doesn't matter that much. [[User:Novickas|Novickas]] ([[User talk:Novickas|talk]]) 15:20, 11 March 2011 (UTC)  
:::::Extra refs can be helpful in the case of dispute, though, and I think that the problem posed by excessive refs is quite small compared to other problems we might face. If every wikipedia article suffered from problems like "''Too many sources''" or "''Every sentence is referenced''" I'd be a very happy man. [[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 15:52, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
::Please read entire article on [[History of Vilnius]]  as well as [[Vilnius]] and [[Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth]].--[[User:Jacurek|Jacurek]] ([[User talk:Jacurek|talk]]) 02:53, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

== Proposed merge with [[Vilnius University Institute of International Relations and Political Science]] ==

More appropriate as appears to be a faculty of said university. No significant notability with individual faculty <span style="background:Black">[[User:Nordic Nightfury|<span style="color:White;">'''Nördic'''</span>]]</span> [[User talk:Nordic Nightfury|<span style="color:Black;">'''Nightfury'''</span>]] 08:49, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
:{{merge done}} [[User:Klbrain|Klbrain]] ([[User talk:Klbrain|talk]]) 17:57, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

== Some proposed changes ==

{{edit COI|ans=y}}

1. Update rankings information in the introduction of the article and in the section "Ranking", it contains old data from 2021, change it to the latest information. Source - https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2024

2. Add academics information about Bachelor's, Masters', International study programmes and Vilnius University research fields and prominent researchers. It is a research university, but there is no part about the research conducted. 
For example: 
== '''Academics''' == 
=== '''Teaching and learning''' ===

More than 23,000 students are currently studying in 98 Bachelor’s and 113 Master’s degree programmes, with PhD studies offered in 29 scientific fields. Students can also choose from more than 60 medicine and dentistry residency programmes. 
International students may choose from the 56 study programmes in English in such fields as medicine, odontology, business and management, economics, mathematics and informatics, philology, law, and communications. More than 2500 international students are studying at Vilnius university, which is around 10% of all students.
While offering undergraduate, graduate and postgraduate studies in the fields of the Humanities, Social Sciences, Natural Sciences, Medicine and Health Sciences, and Technologies, Vilnius University seeks to ensure that the quality of these studies at all levels conform to the European standards, while pertaining to the needs of the state and society. 
Based in the centre of Europe, Lithuania’s capital Vilnius provides a world-class ICT infrastructure, rapidly-growing businesses, a multilingual community and a very rich cultural life. The University conducts joint study programmes together with foreign higher education institutions. During these collaborative studies, part of the programme takes place at the University, with the other part taking place at a foreign higher education institution. After the completion of these joint studies, a joint qualification degree can be awarded, if the requirements are met. 

==== '''Research''' ====
The research areas of Vilnius University are:
# Humanities
# Lithuanian Studies
# Structure and Development of Society
# Biological and Sociopsychological Cognition and the Evolution of Man
# Healthy Mankind, Prevention, Diagnostics and Treatment of Diseases
# Genomics, Biomolecules and Biotechnologies
# Changes in Ecosystems, Protection and Natural Resources
# New Functional Materials and Derivatives
# Theoretical and Condensed Matter Physics
# Laser Physics and Light Technologies
# Fundamental and Applied Mathematics
# Informatics and Information Technologies

More than 1/3 of the PhD theses created in Lithuania are defended at Vilnius University, where over 3,000 research publications are published, and more than 400 research projects are implemented annually.
Vilnius University has over 160 research teams, which are acknowledged across the globe. The University’s researchers are equipped with world-class equipment and infrastructures, and they obtain the best possible results. The interdisciplinary approach that the University researchers apply in their search for original and innovative solutions allows the Vilnius University researchers reach an outstanding performance within the academic, educational, cultural, business and social ecosystems.
Vilnius University offers more than 450 open access R&D services and infrastructures in all R&D and innovation areas including: life sciences, chemistry and geosciences, photonics and nanotechnology, laser physics, semiconductors and lighting, information technologies, psychology and many others. Of course, each business, academic or social partner faces unique challenges; therefore, all of our R&D services can be adapted to every organisation’s needs.
 
By attracting targeted funding or using the University’s funds, the University currently represents the country or participates as a partner in the following international research infrastructures: EMBL; EMBC (European Conference on Molecular Biology); Instruct-ERIC (Structural Biology Infrastructure); ELI (Extreme Light Infrastructure); CERN; WAEVE Consortium (Next Generation Spectroscopy Facility for the William Herschel Telescope); and the Biobanks and Biomolecular Resources Research Infrastructure (BBMRI-ERIC). The ongoing cooperation in the development of these infrastructures is not only international but also national in scale. For example, the Semiconductor Technology Centre (PTC) and the Innovative Chemistry (INOCHEM) Centre are currently being developed. In addition to these research infrastructures, the University is actively involved in other research networks, associations and continuous research activities. Among other international infrastructures, the University’s activities in CLARIN, SHARE-ERIC, LaserLab-Europe should also be mentioned.

The EMBL Partnership Institute was established in the Vilnius University Life Sciences Centre (LSC), based on an agreement concluded in 2020, the main goal of which is to initiate and develop new directions and technologies in relation to genome editing research and applications in LSC, and to promote the application of genome editing technologies in LSC and Lithuanian research and study institutions and businesses.

Global Entrepreneurship Monitoring (GEM) is the world's largest survey of the state of entrepreneurship, conducted since 1999, using the GEM methodology for entrepreneurship, which is recognised as one of the world's most objective, rigorous and reliable methodologies. From 2021, Vilnius University Business School (VU Business School) coordinates and implements GEM in Lithuania. 
Vilnius University participates in different national and international research projects such as the EU Seventh Framework Programme, Horizon 2020, COST, EUREKA, CERN, etc. To enhance the interrelation between science and business, Vilnius University has established four open access centres aimed at providing access to available research and laboratory equipment not only to students and researchers but also to representatives of business or to personnel of other institutions of science and research. 

Lecturers at the University are highly esteemed researchers and have been bestowed the most prestigious Lithuanian science and Lithuanian Academy of Science awards. They are also members of international scientific organisations and honorary doctors of foreign universities.

=== Prominent researchers ===

One of the most well known scholars in Vilnius University is Prof. Virginijus Šikšnys. He is famous for pioneering a CRISPR/Cas9 gene editing technology also known as ‘gene scissors’. Prof. Šikšnys is now Head of the Department of Protein–DNA Interactions at the Vilnius University Institute of Biotechnology.
Prof. Andrej Spiridonov is famous for the discovery of drivers of evolutionary changes at mega-scale. His latest research suggests that life rather than climate influences diversity at scales greater than 40 million years.
Dr. Mangirdas Malinauskas has been working in laser and optical technologies for more than ten years. At the Laser Research Centre, Malinauskas develops technologies popularly known as ‘4D printing’. Such technologies can produce so-called intelligent objects that can change shape and other properties in response to appropriate conditions: electricity, light, heat, humidity, acidity, solvent composition, etc.
Dr. Linas Mažutis is successfully developing microfluidic technologies at Vilnius University Life Sciences Centre (VU GMC). He is a co-founder of two biotech and biomedical companies. The first one, Platelet BioGenesis, is an allogeneic cell therapy company focused on platelet biology, discovering a new category in therapeutics. He has also co-founded a start-up: the biotechnology company Droplet Genomics which has been rapidly making its way to international markets. The company‘s success is based on droplet microfluidic technology, enabling the study of single cells and molecules. One year ago the company attracted an investment of €1 million.
In 2004 Prof. Valentina Dagiene has established an International Challenge on Informatics and Computational Thinking called BEBRAS (‘Beaver’) which is implemented in over 60 countries. It is an international initiative aiming to promote informatics (Computer Science, or Computing) and computational thinking among school students at all ages. Participants are usually supervised by teachers who may integrate the BEBRAS challenge in their teaching activities. The challenge is performed at schools using computers or mobile devices."

Sources: https://www.vu.lt/en/studies, https://studyin.lt/institutions/vilniusuniversity/, https://www.masterstudies.com/institutions/vilnius-university.

3. In "Structure" remove wrong link on [[Vilnius University Institute of International Relations and Political Science|Institute of International Relations and Political Science]], it directs to Vilnius university Wikipedia page. 

4. In "Campus" it is not the '''main courtyard''', change it into '''the Grand Courtyard'''. Sources: https://www.vu.lt/en/about-vu/history/university-ensemble, https://www.govilnius.lt/visit-vilnius/latest-tips/enter-the-courtyards-of-vilnius.

[[Special:Contributions/158.129.156.9|158.129.156.9]] ([[User talk:158.129.156.9|talk]]) 14:05, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
:{{Respond|orangeexclamation|Not done for now:}} it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. <!-- Template:ECOI --> <span style="font-size:85%;border:3px solid red;border-radius:15px">[[User:Spintendo|<span style="color:#f00;">&nbsp;<b>Spintendo</b>&nbsp;</span>]]</span> 08:24, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
::Information has been added. [[Special:Contributions/84.15.180.169|84.15.180.169]] ([[User talk:84.15.180.169|talk]]) 09:22, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

== Excessive refs ==

Why does {{tq|The Latin name is rendered into English as Jesuit Academy, Jesuit College, or Academy of Vilnius (Vilna/Wilna/Wilno).}} require 12 citations? [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 23:58, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

:Of course it doesn't, they should be removed [[User:Marcelus|Marcelus]] ([[User talk:Marcelus|talk]]) 15:24, 17 February 2024 (UTC)