View source for Talk:World War II reenactment

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{{WikiProject Military history|class=start|b1=n|b2=n|b3=y|b4=y|b5=n|WWII=yes}}
{{WikiProject Reenactment|importance=mid}}
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==Possible sources==
*[http://hnn.us/articles/9092.html What are the people who reenact 20th Century wars up to?]
*[http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1588341283/] ''War Games: Inside the World of Twentieth-Century War Reenactors'' by Jenny Thompson (Smithsonian, 2004)

== External links; OR ==

I removed the external links -- these are non official YT channels (pls see [[WP:Ext]]. I also found the videos objectionable. Pls lmk if we need to discuss. [[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 16:03, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

:I also tagged the article [[WP:OR]] as much of the content is uncited and appears to be original research. [[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 16:21, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

== Weight and coatrack issues ==

This article in its [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=World_War_II_reenactment&oldid=694841729 previous state] was an under-sourced overview of the topic with some coverage of critical responses to particular aspects. The [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=World_War_II_reenactment&oldid=804089178 current version] is a [[WP:COATRACK|coatrack]] for criticism lacking any overview or encyclopedic coverage of the nominal subject. Please expand the coverage of the topic with any sources available and attempt to [[WP:NPOV|rebalance the commentary]]. [[User:LargelyRecyclable|LargelyRecyclable]] ([[User talk:LargelyRecyclable|talk]]) 17:35, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

== Requested move 28 October 2017 ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''not moved'''. An article on [[Waffen-SS reenactment]] can be split out if necessary. Regarding the hyphen, it's not a typo and all our articles that I can see currently use "reenactment". Start a new bundled RM for all of them if you think they should be hyphenated. [[User:Jenks24|Jenks24]] ([[User talk:Jenks24|talk]]) 01:38, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
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[[:World War II reenactment]] → {{no redirect|Waffen-SS reenactment}} – The article used to be a mostly uncited / OR-based fan page: [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=World_War_II_reenactment&oldid=694841729 2015 version]; this material was subsequently removed. What's cited in the article is on the topic of [[Waffen-SS]] reenactment. Sufficient sources exist to establish notability for this topic in its own right; samples: [https://books.google.com/books?id=MO-Q0smiKIUC&pg=PT18&dq=waffen+ss+reenactment&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj87ZLB7pHXAhWHrFQKHWdOCpcQ6AEISzAG#v=onepage&q=waffen%20ss%20reenactment&f=false ''Man of War: My Adventures in the World of Historical Reenactment''], by Charlie Schroeder; [https://books.google.com/books?id=KZAgAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA222&dq=waffen+ss+reenactment&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj87ZLB7pHXAhWHrFQKHWdOCpcQ6AEIOjAD#v=onepage&q=waffen%20ss%20reenactment&f=false ''Wargames: From Gladiators to Gigabytes''], By [[Martin van Creveld]], [https://books.google.com/books?id=pctA4RcSZJwC&pg=PA25&dq=waffen+ss+reenactment&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj87ZLB7pHXAhWHrFQKHWdOCpcQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=waffen%20ss%20reenactment&f=false ''Bearing Witness: Perspectives on War and Peace from the Arts and Humanities''], edited by Sherrill Grace et al; plus the material already cited in the article. 

Waffen-SS reenactment is banned in several countries and remains controversial in the English-speaking world. Therefore, there's substantial coverage in RS of the topic, so a redirect may be appropriate. If anybody wishes to create a WW2 reenactment article, they would be able to turn the redirect into a stand-alone page. Another option is to split Waffen-SS reenactment from this article while leaving a stub behind for future development. There have been concerns about the scope of the article (see above), so I hope they can be addressed by either a '''move''' or a '''split'''. [[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 00:20, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
:I'd be more inclined to split them, as there are plenty of reenactors playing Allied or Heer units.--[[User:Sturmvogel 66|Sturmvogel 66]] ([[User talk:Sturmvogel 66|talk]]) 01:15, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
:This appears to be a coatrack POV article and I would question whether it has any place in WP at all in its present form. Regards. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 01:32, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
::I believe that the POV issues can be more effectively addressed if the scope of the article is redefined to focus on the Waffen-SS reenactment. If the POV challenges are insurmountable, then the article can be nominated for deletion. [[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 02:09, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
:::I would believe that there is a place for an article of this present title - one which has a balanced coverage of re-enactment groups of various countries, events ect. In other words, an article which is representative of the title. Even retitled, the present contents would have significant issues of POV weight and coverage that would need to be addressed. At present, there is an implied syllogism that all members Waffen-SS re-enactment groups are racist neo-Nazis. This may be the case but it must be verified - not to mention the validity of such an hypothesis per [[Karl Popper]]. The POV and coatracking issues are not addressed by simply changing the title. There are weight and scope issues too. This is a case of [[WP:ISNOT]]. IMHO. Create a stub of this <u>article (present title)</u> should be. Take that as an '''oppose'''. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 07:02, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

I '''oppose''' a move to Waffen-SS reenactment as it will essentially be a de facto "criticism of" article, creating another neglected content fork to drop sensationalist 300 word news articles and tangential axing grinding. The article simply needs (and has needed) the brief attention of a competent editor to create a brief summary. [[User:LargelyRecyclable|LargelyRecyclable]] ([[User talk:LargelyRecyclable|talk]]) 03:45, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' If there are sufficient sources for a Waffen-SS re-enactment article, it should stand alone as a child of the WWII re-enactment article. [[User:Peacemaker67|Peacemaker67]]  ([[User_talk:Peacemaker67|click to talk to me]]) 04:16, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' I'd suggest reducing this to a stub, and splitting the content on Waffen SS reenactment (which is a significant topic in its own right) into a separate article. [[User:Nick-D|Nick-D]] ([[User talk:Nick-D|talk]]) 04:27, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. The general community intent does not appear to be for this page to have such a narrow scope; the fact that non-Waffen-SS material was removed for lack of sourcing does not mean at all that sourced material on broader WWII re-enactment won't be soon enough added, which would just necessitate naming it back again.  Someone could probably add something of this sort in less than 5 minutes of online source research. (I take [[George Carlin]]'s view when it comes to battle re-enactors – "Give 'em live ammo!" – so it won't be me.)<p>Instead, '''move to [[World War II re-enactment]]''' to match the spelling of that word preferred by most dictionaries.<br /><span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] &gt;<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>&lt; </span> 04:34, 28 October 2017 (UTC)</p>

::Support SMcC [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 07:02, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
:::Observe that other articles in category are similarly titled to present and would need change too. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 07:36, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
::::Since it's just a typo fix, that can be done manually and (where necessary) via [[WP:RM/TR]]. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] &gt;<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>&lt; </span> 01:23, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
::Support [[User:LargelyRecyclable|LargelyRecyclable]] ([[User talk:LargelyRecyclable|talk]]) 07:05, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' It seems that a new article could be made about Waffen-SS reenactment ''at some point'', but this article is a reasonable topic, and we shouldn’t split it until this article becomes too long. [[User talk:A Den Jentyl Ettien Avel Dysklyver|<span style="color:blue;">''Dysklyver''</span>]] 10:59, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''', per SMcCandlish and support his comments and suggestion. [[User:Kierzek|Kierzek]] ([[User talk:Kierzek|talk]]) 20:10, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' (I can see "...re-enactment") The article's treatment of Waffen-SS is essentially "some places don't allow that." The current name fits in with the organization in [[Template:Reenactment]].--<span style="background:#C2C2C2">[[User:Gaarmyvet|<span style="color:red;">'''Georgia Army Vet'''</span> ]][[Special:Contributions/Gaarmyvet|<span style="color:white;">''Contribs''</span> ]][[User Talk:Gaarmyvet|<span style="color:blue;">'''Talk'''</span>]] </span> 20:53, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. As it currently stands it's fine. There's plenty that could be written on the subject. Move to [[World War II re-enactment]] though. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 13:12, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]].  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

== Recent edit ==

I restored notable controversies with [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=World_War_II_reenactment&type=revision&diff=835267677&oldid=835240727 this edit]. It has previously been removed [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=World_War_II_reenactment&type=revision&diff=807552772&oldid=807444826], with edit summary: "trim in prep for proper sourcing and expansion". However, no noticeable expansion has occurred. 

I also removed the tag that looked misplaced to me. Please let me know if there are any concerns. --[[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 16:49, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

::I support the revert by [[User:LargelyRecyclable]]. See my comments per proposed move (above). Actions that turned this article into a coatrack, regardless of how well justified they might appear, should remain undone. Regards, [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 07:44, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

:: I've restored this content - this is well-sourced and clearly significant. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]<sup>[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]</sup> 23:30, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

:::It may be "well-sourced and clearly significant" but the extent of coverage gives [[WP:UNDUE|undue weight]] to the extent that it out weighs the "intended" subject of the article and thereby creating a coatrack.  It is also contrary to the general consensus expressed above (IMO). Regards, [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 00:23, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
::::The discussion above was about the article name; not the content in question. The way to deal with the weight concerns is to ''add'' content, not remove the content one may disagree with; pls see [[WP:NOTCENSORED]]. --[[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 00:28, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

:::::@[[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] While not the primary question of the above discussion, it certainly touched upon issues of content. I would also observe that you remove substantial amounts of text here and do so habitually ([[WP:POT]] - though this is not a matter of incivility). While [[WP:NOTCENSORED]] it is also [[WP:NOTSOAPBOX]] and coverage of a subject within an article must have due [[WP:Weight]] lest it become a [[wp:coatrack]]. You are correct, in that the best way to improve an article is to add rather than remove content - but this must be done in a balanced way. It is not that I disagree with the content per se, but that it gives undue weight to a particular aspect and thereby distorts the purpose of the article. You asked if there were any concerns. The answer is, "Yes". Regards, [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 01:52, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
::::::The Waffen-SS content was eliminated from the article due to it being {{tq|tangential axing grinding}}, whatever that means, but I would like to point out that it was present in the article since before I edited it: [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=World_War_II_reenactment&oldid=694841729#Controversy Dec 2015 version]. As you can see, the rest was unsourced original research, and it was proper to remove it. [[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 02:06, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
:::::::And consequently, it is now appropriate to remove this material due to weight (or expand the other sections to the point that it might be re-inserted). I would observe that, rather than removing a large body of unsourced material, the other (and perhaps better) alternative would have been to provide sources. Regards, [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 02:41, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

This discussion has been notified at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history]]. Regards, [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 02:53, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

===Material in question===
For reference, the material removed was:

{{Quote box
|bgcolor = Cornsilk
|quote ='''Controversies'''<br><br>In 2007, BBC investigative reporter [[John Sweeney (journalist)|John Sweeney]] produced a documentary entitled ''Weekend Nazis'' that delved into the reenactment scene in the UK. Members of German units, especially the [[Second Battle Group]] (SBG)), were interviewed and investigated about their hobby. Two SBG members were covertly filmed expressing racist views. The documentary was broadcast on 27 August 2007; in the ensuing controversy, the SBG issued a statement through their lawyers: "The views alleged to have been made by members of the SBG are, in the opinion of the SBG, fascist, racist and utterly reprehensible and as such are views we strongly oppose."<ref name="telegraph">{{cite news|url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1561261/Neo-Nazis-infiltrate-WWII-re-enactment-group.html| work=Daily Telegraph| date=2007-08-27| title=Neo-Nazis infiltrate WWII re-enactment group| accessdate=2007-09-05 | location=London | first=Graham | last=Tibbetts}}</ref> <br><br>
In 2010, [[Rich Iott]], a [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] candidate for US Congress, came under intense scrutiny after images were released showing him wearing an SS uniform.<ref>{{cite web
  | website=[[The Atlantic]]
  | last = Green
  | first = Joshua
  | url = https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/10/why-is-this-gop-house-candidate-dressed-as-a-nazi/64319/
  | archiveurl = https://web.archive.org/web/20151221224316/http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/10/why-is-this-gop-house-candidate-dressed-as-a-nazi/64319/
  | archivedate = 2015-12-21
  | title = Why Is This GOP House Candidate Dressed as a Nazi?
  | author =
  | date = 2010
  | access-date = 20 December 2015
  | language =
  | ref = {{harvid|The Atlantic|2010}}
  }}</ref> Iott defended his interest in historical reenactment.<ref>{{cite web|title=House Candidate Rich Iott Defends Nazi Uniform Photos|url=http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tea-party-nazi-reenactor-rick-iott-defends/story?id=11845422/64319/|publisher=ABC News|accessdate=22 December 2014|author=|date=8 October 2010}}</ref>}}

This content was deemed to be {{tq|tangential axing ''(sic)'' grinding}}. I'm still not sure what the meaning of this phrase is, but it appears that there was an objection to including the controversies surrounding this activity. But it's what it is. Waffen-SS reenactment is a controversial hobby so there are bound to be controversies that reliable sources cover. Another objection was: {{tq|there is an implied syllogism that all members Waffen-SS re-enactment groups are racist neo-Nazis. This may be the case but it must be verified}}. The Telegraph source does report on this in re: a particular reenactment group, so I'm not sure what the concern is.

The main argument is around NPOV and WEIGHT. I.e. that this coverage is one-sided and if we include this we must include other stuff as well. I find this to be a weak argument; adding the controversies is not stopping the balancing info (if needed) from being added. It also needs to be better demonstrated that this is not neutral while excising reliably-sourced material does not help. [[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 21:39, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}

==Topic ban==
These two edits [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=World_War_II_reenactment&curid=3540394&diff=902607464&oldid=902543678] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=World_War_II_reenactment&diff=prev&oldid=902499075] violated the topic ban imposed here: 

*[[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/German war effort#Cinderella157 German history topic ban]]

I've undone them. --[[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 23:43, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

== D-Day Conneaut ==

Why is there no mention of D-Day Conneaut, which is one of the largest World War II reenactments in the world. if not the USA? D-Day Conneaut is a special event held every year in Conneaut, Ohio, on the shores of Lake Erie. IT reenacts the D-Day Invasion and the defense of the beaches by the German Heer. It has camps where various reenactors discuss the history behind their uniforms and weapons, and the role that their respective factions played during World War II. 
[[Special:Contributions/72.23.158.98|72.23.158.98]] ([[User talk:72.23.158.98|talk]]) 01:05, 26 September 2023 (UTC)