View source for Template talk:Orbital launch systems

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==Rename?==
The SpaceX Falcons are not technically ELVs, seeing as they are re-usable, and the whole meaning of the term "ELV" denotes that the rocket in question is not reusable.

Therefore, I suggest that the template is renamed to cover all rockets capable of launching satellites into orbit. This would also allow the Space Shuttle, and other re-usable launchers to be included. --<span style="color:#002222;">'''GW_Simulations'''</span><sub>''[[User:GW Simulations||User Page]]'' | ''[[User talk:GW_Simulations|Talk]] ''|'' [[Special:Contributions/GW_Simulations|Contribs]]'' | ''[[User:GW Simulations/Chess|Chess]]'' | ''[[Special:Emailuser/GW_Simulations|E-mail]]''</sub> 19:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

(OPPOSE)--[[User:Aces lead|aceslead]] 03:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
::For the record, I dropped this proposal and now support the current system, per discussion below. I have reverted edits by {{user|Dojarca}} to the effect of implementing this proposal, per the opposition of this proposal. Please start new discussion if you want to contest the current arrangement. --<span style="color: #116655">'''GW_Simulations'''<sub>[[User:GW Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">User Page</span>]] | [[User talk:GW_Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">Talk</span>]]</sub></span> 21:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

==Requested move==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

{{{result|The result of the debate was}}} '''No consensus''', default '''Not moved'''. —[[User:Centrx|Centrx]]→[[User talk:Centrx|''talk'']]&nbsp;&bull; 02:45, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[[Template:ELVs]] → [[Template:LVs]] – Prevent disputes about Semi-ELVs, make template cover all Satellite Launch Vehicle articles, not just expendable ones. This would allow it to cover the Space Shuttle, and the SpaceX Falcons (the latter are already, incorrectly, included) to name a few. <span style="color:#002222;">'''GW_Simulations'''</span><sub>''[[User:GW Simulations||User Page]]'' | ''[[User talk:GW_Simulations|Talk]] ''|'' [[Special:Contributions/GW_Simulations|Contribs]]'' | ''[[User:GW Simulations/Chess|Chess]]'' | ''[[Special:Emailuser/GW_Simulations|E-mail]]''</sub> 21:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

(OPPOSE)--[[User:Aces lead|aceslead]] 03:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
===Discussion===
I already removed partially reusable launch vehicles from the template.  I think that a template for Reusable launch vehicles and Partially reusable launch vehicles should be created.--[[User:Aces lead|aceslead]] 03:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->

[[:Category:Reusable launch vehicles]]
[[:Category:Partially reusable launch vehicles]]

== Ares and Falcon ==

Please stop adding Ares to the "in development" section. It is partially reusable, and therefore not an ELV. Falcon does not qualify either --<span style="color: #116655">'''GW_Simulations'''<sub>[[User:GW Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">User Page</span>]] | [[User talk:GW_Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">Talk</span>]]</sub></span> 19:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

According to the ''latest'' changes made by NASA, the Ares I would become a true ELV due to the deletion of the SRB recovery system, thus the SRB-based first stage will end its life on the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean like all other American ELVs.  Ares V, on the other hand, will still be partially reusable.  [[User:Rwboa22|Rwboa22]] 23:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

:#Do you have a cite?
:#Is it official or just a rumour?
:A lot of rumours have been going around about Constellation. If they were all true, we'd be seeing a spacecraft called Alitair being launched from LC-34 (or was that LC-37A, LC-40, or LC-39C) at Canaveral. --<span style="color: #116655">'''GW_Simulations'''<sub>[[User:GW Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">User Page</span>]] | [[User talk:GW_Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">Talk</span>]]</sub></span> 21:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

== Shavit? ==

The page for [[Shavit (rocket)|Shavit]] says that Israel plans to use Indian rockets in the future. Does this put their own launcher in the past? [[User:Potatoswatter|Potatoswatter]] 15:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Answer: No it did not, [[Shavit (rocket)|Shavit 2]] launched as recently as 2020. It is quite risky in spaceflight business to do concousions based on "proposals" or even "announced intentions" etc. Best wait until you see flames coming from the bottom of the rocket before it is conclusion time.[[User:El Roih|El Roih]] ([[User talk:El Roih|talk]]) 20:44, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

== Semi-Reusable Rocket Template ==

I think a semi-reusable rocket template should be created and that the Shuttle, Ares V, SpaceX Falcons, and the Energia rocket would be given their proper placement in Wikipedia.  If anyone asks "Why Energia?", the response will be that the four liquid-fueled boosters (which became the [[Zenit]] ELV rocket) were reusable and that a fully-reusable Energia was in the works before the collapse of the USSR.  [[User:Rwboa22|Rwboa22]] 23:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
:Done - see {{lt|RLVs}}. --<span style="color: #116655">'''GW_Simulations'''<sub>[[User:GW Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">User Page</span>]] | [[User talk:GW_Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">Talk</span>]]</sub></span> 22:20, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

==Please do not include:==
:[[Ares (rocket)|Ares]] - Partially re-usable
:[[Falcon (rocket)|Falcon]] - Partially re-usable
:[[Jupiter-C]] - A sounding rocket. Some were converted into ELVs, but these were called [[Juno I]].
:[[Redstone (rocket)|Redstone]] - A sub-orbital missile. One or two were used as ELVs, but under a different name, namely [[Sparta (rocket)|Sparta]]. The [[Project Mercury]] versions don't count as they were also sub-orbital.

This list is incomplete, based on things that have been added in the past. Please add to it, but sign your changes. --<span style="color: #116655">'''GW_Simulations'''<sub>[[User:GW Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">User Page</span>]] | [[User talk:GW_Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">Talk</span>]]</sub></span> 21:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


Pegasus is not an ELV: L-1011 is re-usable.--[[User:80.223.18.180|80.223.18.180]] 20:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
::That is like saying no rocket is an ELV because the launch pads are re-usable. --<span style="color: #116655">'''GW_Simulations'''<sub>[[User:GW Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">User Page</span>]] | [[User talk:GW_Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">Talk</span>]]</sub></span> 21:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
*[[Titan I]] was a missile, and was never used for orbital launches, so should not be included. --<span style="color: #115566">'''GW_Simulations'''<sub>[[User:GW Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">User Page</span>]] | [[User talk:GW_Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">Talk</span>]]</sub></span> 08:57, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

== Title change ==

How about changing the title to "[[Expendable launch system]]s" to keep it in line with the main article? --<span style="color: #116655">'''GW_Simulations'''<sub>[[User:GW Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">User Page</span>]] | [[User talk:GW_Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">Talk</span>]]</sub></span> 09:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

N.B. the category name is [[:Category:Expendable launch vehicles]]. ([[User:Sdsds|sdsds]] - ''[[User talk:Sdsds|talk]]'') 20:48, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

* Rename this template or the category? Simiarly, [[Template:Reusable launch systems]] and [[:Category:Reusable launch vehicles]]... [[User:Sardanaphalus|Sardanaphalus]] ([[User talk:Sardanaphalus|talk]]) 02:40, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

:*I would advise renaming the categories, as "expendable launch systems" is common to both American and British English, whereas "Expendable launch vehicles" is American English (albeit that it is sometimes used in the UK). The correct British English term is "carrier rocket". --<span style="color: #115566">'''GW_Simulations'''<sub>[[User:GW Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">User Page</span>]] | [[User talk:GW_Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">Talk</span>]]</sub></span> 09:28, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

::* Okay, I've created {{c|Expendable launch systems}} and {{c|Reusable launch systems}} and {{tl|category redirect}}ed the other two categories to them, respectively. I imagine a bot will take care of the transfer in the next few days.
::: While doing the above, I saw that the parent category for both categories is {{c|Space launch vehicles}}; should that also be redirected, to "Space launch systems"? [[User:Sardanaphalus|Sardanaphalus]] ([[User talk:Sardanaphalus|talk]]) 15:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
::: PS There's also {{c|Partially reusable launch vehicles}} and {{c|Shuttle-derived launch vehicles}} -- redirect those too?
:I would do them all except SDLVs. That is an industry term, and has no neutral alternative. --<span style="color: #115566">'''GW_Simulations'''<sub>[[User:GW Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">User Page</span>]] | [[User talk:GW_Simulations|<span style="color:#000000;">Talk</span>]]</sub></span> 17:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

== Expanding scope ==

A few years ago I proposed expanding the template's scope to encompass all orbital launch systems, not just expendable ones, however the discussion couldn't find a consensus either way. I'd like to propose it again now. In reality this seems to be a more useful categorisation since, as has been seen with Falcon, the line between reusable and expendable rockets is somewhat blurred. The only past or present orbital launch system which is not currently included in this template is the Space Shuttle - it is included in the reusable launch systems template, and could continue to be listed there as well, however that template's scope has significantly altered from being a version of this template for reusable and partially reusable launch systems. It would make sense to have one template for all vehicles capable of reaching orbit rather than exclude the Shuttle simply because it is partially reusable. --'''''[[User:WDGraham|<span style="color:#115566;">W.</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:WDGraham|<span style="color:#364966;">D.</span>]]&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/WDGraham|<span style="color:#496636;">Graham</span>]]''''' 07:20, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

== Splitting the template ==

Hello,

I think the template is starting to overgrow. It is becoming too large and cluttered to serve its purpose. Therefore I suggest the template be split into 3 or at least 2 parts. The 3 parts could be: Orbital launch systems (Current); Retired orbital launch system and Orbital launch systems in development. This would also neatly reflect the current structure of the template. I am not suggesting that anything be taken off the template, I am only suggesting the template be split into parts. 

If the template would be split into 2 parts, those parts could be: Orbital launch systems, which would consist of current and retired orbital launch systems; and Orbital launch systems under development, which would consists of the "In development"-part of the current template.

Thank you,
[[User:El Roih|El Roih]] ([[User talk:El Roih|talk]]) 23:00, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

:I have no preference, but I suggest you take a look at the <nowiki>{{Mexican Drug War}}</nowiki> template. They also overgrew the template content, and someone came up with this idea of collapsible sub-sections. Cheers, [[User:Rowan Forest|Rowan Forest]] ([[User talk:Rowan Forest|talk]]) 23:27, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
{{Mexican Drug War}}
:As navboxes go, this one is not particularly crowded. A split would prevent readers from seeing links between current and historical vehicles (e.g. the Soyuz series). — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 07:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

:: Good point JFG. So maybe splitting into 3 would be unwise. But how about splitting into 2 (the current and retired launch systems and the systems under development)? That would retain the links between current and historical vehicles. Also, splitting into 2 would have the added benefit of increasing the quality of the template. What I mean by this is that taking the systems under developments into their own template, what would remain (the current+historic launch systems) would be solid fact. Being an "orbital launch system in development" does not actually mean a whole lot nowadays (if it ever has, the history of spaceflight is full of rocket designs that never made it anywhere near the launch pad), with some small orbital launcher development projects being basically a group of guys operating from a garage. So taking the "under development" ones out, we would eliminate a lot of uncertainty from the template, and as said above, what would remain would at least be the kind of solid fact you would expect to find from an encyclopedia like Wikipedia (I honestly think some of the "in development" rocket programs are more hearsay than any type of encyclopedic material). Thank you, [[User:El Roih|El Roih]] ([[User talk:El Roih|talk]]) 02:50, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
:::I agree that we should not give prominence to "paper rockets", and we should monitor developments of listed projects here. I just removed a few of them, that were either canceled or not moving forward. I'm convinced that once-a-year assessment of progress is a better approach than splitting the template. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 23:10, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

== Additional in-development vehicles ==

I won't speculate on what is and isn't "notable," but the following companies/vehicles are notable enough to merit their own Wikipedia articles, so should they also merit inclusion in this template? [[Perigee Aerospace]], [[TiSPACE]], [[Skyrora]], [[Skyroot Aerospace]]. [[User:Rwald|Rwald]] ([[User talk:Rwald|talk]]) 03:05, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

You can read above from the discussion "Splitting the template" about this.[[User:El Roih|El Roih]] ([[User talk:El Roih|talk]]) 20:50, 26 February 2022 (UTC)