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== Welcome! ==

Hi FollowTheTortoise, and welcome to Wikipedia!
Thank you for [[Special:Contributions/FollowTheTortoise|your contributions]].
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== [[Cabinet rank]] ==

I notice that you added WorldCat references to this article but these are NOT sources. They are catalogue entries only for the books in question. You need to read [[WP:CITE]] and [[WP:RS]] which explain what is required as sources. As far as books are concerned, we need a direct citation of the exact page number from the book itself. [[User:No Great Shaker|No Great Shaker]] ([[User talk:No Great Shaker|talk]]) 19:11, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

:I thought that I had put page numbers in my references, but I'll make sure that my edits are up to policy when I can. Have a nice weekend! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 19:17, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
::You have effectively used book adverts as sources instead of the books themselves. You cannot possibly obtain the page numbers from the WorldCat entry. You must reference the actual book. [[User:No Great Shaker|No Great Shaker]] ([[User talk:No Great Shaker|talk]]) 19:26, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

:::I'm pretty sure that I always either had the physical book or book on Kindle in front of me when I was doing those edits. I think what I must have done was use the automatic citation tool, which adds the WorldCat entry, without knowing that that was wrong. I'll have a good read over those policies and fix my edits in the future. Thanks for informing me of my mistake! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 19:33, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
::::Okay. Have a good weekend yourself. All the best and stay safe. [[User:No Great Shaker|No Great Shaker]] ([[User talk:No Great Shaker|talk]]) 19:44, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
:::::{{Done}} (at last). [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 16:59, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

== UK PM talk page discussion ==
Hey, just wanted to give you a heads up that I replied to some discussion on the [[Prime Minister of the UK]] talk page regarding the lead :) [[User:WildComet|WildComet]] ([[User talk:WildComet|talk]]) 01:27, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

:Thanks for letting me know and for leaving such a detailed comment! :) I've now left my response, so hopefully we'll be able to sort something out that we're both happy with! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 20:24, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

== A barnstar for you! ==

{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Minor Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Minor barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Great work with regards to Boris Johnson's page.  I appreciate the alteration of the wording of the article. [[User:DukeLondon|DukeLondon]] ([[User talk:DukeLondon|talk]]) 17:56, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
|}

: Thank you! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 18:23, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
: No worries. [[User:DukeLondon|DukeLondon]] ([[User talk:DukeLondon|talk]]) 18:36, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
==Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom==
Could you add a lost of the informal DPM's please as I think they could be great asset.
[[User:Mr Hall of England|Mr Hall of England]] ([[User talk:Mr Hall of England|talk]]) 22:46, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

:Hey, do you mean Rodney Brazier's unambiguous 14 that are referenced in the article [[Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom]]? [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 22:54, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

::Yes also would the Liberal Leader under Churchill War be considered? [[User:Mr Hall of England|Mr Hall of England]] ([[User talk:Mr Hall of England|talk]]) 14:49, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

:::I can get to work on adding them to the article. I feel that adding them in prose rather than in a table would be better as, while they may be unambigous to Brazier, some might be arguable! And I'm not completely sure who you're referring to. Under Winston Churchill, Rodney Brazier includes Clement Attlee (1940-5) and Anthony Eden (1945 and 1951-55). [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 17:07, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

::::Fair enough, made a little point score as Archibald Sinclair could of been a DPM as the Liberal Party.

:::::Ahh I see. If you can find a source, you could of course add this to the article! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 18:03, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

I am blocked from editing by the way, but I enclose the template for you to do with the DPMs (Official and Unofficial)
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
|+Deputy Prime Minister
! colspan=2 rowspan=2|Portrait
! rowspan=2|Deputy Prime Minister
! rowspan=2|Political Party<br>{{small|and position}}
! rowspan=2|Portfolio(s)
! colspan=2|Term of office
! rowspan=2|Ministry
! rowspan=2|Monarch<br>{{small|(Reign)}}
! rowspan=2|{{Tooltip|Ref.|Reference}}
|-
!Took office
!Left office
|-
! style="background-color: {{party color|Labour Party (UK)}}" |
| [[File:Clement Attlee.jpg|60px]]
| {{small|[[Clement Attlee|The Right Honourable]]}}<br>[[Clement Attlee|'''Clement Attlee''']]<br>{{small|MP for [[Limehouse (UK Parliament constituency)|Limehouse]]}}<br>{{small|(1883–1967)}}
| {{Party shading/Labour}} | [[Labour Party (UK)|Labour]]<br>{{small|[[Leader of the Labour Party (UK)|Leader]] 1958–71}}
| 
*[[Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs|Dominions Secretary]] {{small|(1942–1943)}}
*[[Lord President of the Council]] {{small|(1943–1945)}}
| {{small|19 February<br>}}1942
| {{small|23 May<br>}}1945
| {{Party shading/Coalition (UK)}} | [[Churchill war ministry|Churchill War]]
! scope=row style=text-align:center|[[George VI]]<br>[[File:Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom (1837-1952).svg|50px]]<br>{{small|'''(1936–1952)'''}}
|<ref name=":4" />
|-
|}

Archibald Sinclair was not DPM though. [[User:Mr Hall of England|Mr Hall of England]] ([[User talk:Mr Hall of England|talk]]) 20:43, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

::::::{{Done}}. It's perhaps not my finest work, but I think that it'll do the trick and I or somebody else can always come back to it in the future now that the full list with references is there. My apologies for the delay and, while I don't know the full story, it does seem that Wikipedia is a poorer place for not having you as an editor anymore. On this note, please do get in touch with me again if I can help in any way to get your ban lifted or if you have any other suggestions. [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 18:20, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

==Disambiguation link notification for April 4==

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:{{Fixed}} [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 11:37, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
==Concern regarding [[Draft:Spring 1974 United Kingdom government formation]]==
[[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, FollowTheTortoise. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that [[Draft:Spring 1974 United Kingdom government formation]], a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months.  Draft space is not an indefinite storage location for content that is not appropriate for [[WP:MAINSPACE|article space]].

If your submission is not edited soon, it could be nominated for deletion under [[WP:G13|CSD G13]].  If you would like to attempt to save it, you will need to improve it. You may request [[WP:USERFY|userfication]] of the content if it meets requirements.

If the deletion has already occured, instructions on how you may be able to retrieve it are available [[WP:REFUND/G13|here]].

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. [[User:FireflyBot|FireflyBot]] ([[User talk:FireflyBot|talk]]) 10:02, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
==Help==
I was wandering if you could do me this favor for me please?
Could you add this to the following, Add #89CFF0 this to
*[[List of law life peerages]]
*[[List of life peerages (1958–1979)]]
*[[List of life peerages (1979–1997)]]
*[[List of life peerages (1997–2010)]]
*[[List of life peerages (2010–present)]]

Because these are for Lords who are alive but retired from the Lords not died.

[[User:Mr Hall of England|Mr Hall of England]] ([[User talk:Mr Hall of England|talk]]) 16:21, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

:Hey, I'm afraid that I'm not completely sure what you want doing, so if you could re-explain then that would be great. I will also need to check that this would be within the rules before I do it. [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 17:09, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
::You just need to change the colour of the Lord's who are alive but left the House of Lords. That's all. [[User:Mr Hall of England|Mr Hall of England]] ([[User talk:Mr Hall of England|talk]]) 19:22, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Ideal references
*[[Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010]]
*[[House of Lords Reform Act 2014]]

This is what I propose for you:
{{legend|#DDFDDD|Extant|border=1px #555 solid}}
{{legend|#89CFF0|Extant but left the Lords|border=1px #555 solid}}

Hi I was wandering if you have added the changes? [[User:Mr Hall of England|Mr Hall of England]] ([[User talk:Mr Hall of England|talk]]) 21:30, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

:Hey, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. [[Wikipedia:Teahouse#Favours and suggestions from blocked editors|It looks like]] we're good to go and I do think that your suggested edits would be constructive, so I will put them into place as soon as find the time! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 18:16, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
::Thanks for working on this [[WP:ER|edit request]]! MHE has also been trying to rework lists of women who were members of the house of lords (I think). You might be better suited to help than me. If you're interested, see [[User_talk:Wugapodes/Archive_19#Help|this discussion]]. Either way, let me know if you need my help, and thanks again! <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— [[User:Wugapodes|Wug·]][[User talk:Wugapodes|a·po·des]]</span> 06:32, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
:::{{Not done}} I was just scrolling through my talk page when I was reminded of this task! I know that it's been a couple of months, but I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able to do the edits. It's not really my area, I'm still not 100% sure what needs to be done and I can be quite busy. Sorry! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 22:22, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

== Welsh Parliament ==

It's dissolution day tomorrow. Are you ready to start deleting post-nominals? [[User:Robin S. Taylor|Robin S. Taylor]] ([[User talk:Robin S. Taylor|talk]]) 18:08, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

:Absolutely - thanks for reminding me! Maybe I could start from the end of the alphabet. Also, are we okay to start at midnight or is there a specific time? I can't find anything on Google. [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 18:12, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

I can't find a specific time either so I would assume midnight. I'll start with A and you start with Z.[[User:Robin S. Taylor|Robin S. Taylor]] ([[User talk:Robin S. Taylor|talk]]) 19:52, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

I have also knocked up this template to put at the tops of the articles concerned. {{Template:2021 Senedd}}

::That's brilliant. Thank you and hopefully speak to you tomorrow. [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 21:04, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

:::Wow! Just checking now, it seems that you've done everyone! Thanks a lot for sorting this! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 09:34, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

==Disambiguation link notification for June 4==

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:{{Fixed}} [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 20:36, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

== Edit revert in Democratic Unionist Party ==

Hi, I have reverted your edit on [[Democratic Unionist Party]] due to [[WP:NPOV|NPOV]] issues. I believe that "less than three weeks into the job" and "despite the fact that" is a violation of the policy. I might be wrong, if I am, please contact me through my talk page or reply to this message, but remember to ping me. [[User:Justiyaya|Justiyaya]] ([[User talk:Justiyaya|talk]]) 05:00, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

:Hi @[[User:Justiyaya|Justiyaya]]. Thanks for your message. This is very concerning to hear. I, of course, didn't mean to breach any policy. I'm not convinced that those quotations are in violation of any policy, but I take any complaint very seriously and am happy to rewrite to prevent any percieved violation. Specifically, is it [[wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Impartial_tone|WP:IMPARTIAL]] that you're concerned about?
:
:I wrote a similar statement on [[Edwin Poots]], so was wondering if you could approve a rewrite that I've done in light of your comments and a rereading of the current version of my referenced articles, which is as follows (I'm afraid that I haven't been able to work out how to add citations to my talk page, but I'm using the same sources as before and have included citation numbers in square brackets): "On 17 June, Poots announced that he had requested a new leadership contest.[76] He said that he would stay in post until a successor was elected.[76] This followed a reported vote by DUP MLAs, 24 to four, against Poots nominating Givan to be First Minister.[77]"
:
:Thanks again for your message. [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 19:39, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
::Hi, I remember debating with myself (for like 10 minutes) whether to revert or not because this is a really small issue. I believe that writing "less than 3 weeks" is more biased than "after 20 days" ([[WP:VOICE]]) and that "despite the fact that" can be removed without much change of the information in the sentence (if you fix the grammar), this is not a huge issue but I would argue that it's still slightly biased. In hindsight, I probably should've made the edits that were mentioned before and accept the revision, so that's what I'll do after I finish writing this message.
::I would approve the similar statement that you mentioned. To put citations into talk pages, you just simply do the same as you would in normal pages, like this.<ref>citation goes here</ref>
::Consider [[Wikipedia:Requests for permissions/Pending changes reviewer|applying]] for [[WP:Pending changes reviewer|pending changes reviewer]], you seem to have enough of an understanding of the policies that are needed (if not, read them) and you probably have enough [https://xtools.wmflabs.org/ec/en.wikipedia.org/FollowTheTortoise experiance] to do so too. 
::-- [[User:Justiyaya|Justiyaya]] ([[User talk:Justiyaya|talk]]) 20:29, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
:::Thanks for doing that, @[[User:Justiyaya|Justiyaya]]! And thanks for the heads up about citations - I think that the normal button has disappeared because I'm using the new reply feature. 
:::And I'll have a think about applying - perhaps when I hit 1,000 edits or when August (my one year Wikipedia anniversary) comes around will be a good time to apply. I spent most of yesterday evening correcting edits saying that Edwin Poots was no longer DUP Leader, so it would have been a useful tool then! Though my usual arena is adding information to relatively uncontentious pages which don't have that feature, I'll have a think, especially if I end up branching out into pages with that feature.
:::Thanks again and have a nice weekend! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 22:21, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
::::Okay, if you do choose to apply, good luck. If you need anything, feel free to talk to me on my talk page. Have fun editing :) [[User:Justiyaya|Justiyaya]] ([[User talk:Justiyaya|talk]]) 05:50, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

== Sadiq Khan ==

I'm a little puzzled by your commented out note to his article.   The City of London, for example, has been unchanged (except for minor boundary adjustments) for a millennium.   Are you saying that such authorities cannot elect a mayor or Lord Mayor? [[Special:Contributions/89.240.112.154|89.240.112.154]] ([[User talk:89.240.112.154|talk]]) 16:10, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

:Hey. I wasn't saying that at all! I spent a bit of time adding the style "Mayor" to the articles of the nine [[Directly elected mayors in England and Wales#Metro-Mayoralties covering more than one local authority area|'Metro Mayors]]' before their names earlier today, as per the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009, s 107A(5) ([https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Andy_Burnham&diff=1029685145&oldid=1029527187&diffmode=source for example, on Andy Burnham's article]). However, as the Mayor of London technically isn't "[a] mayor for the area of a combined authority" and [https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1999/29 I have not been able to find any other authority to the contrary], it is clear to me that Sadiq Khan is not entitled to the style of "Mayor" before his name. The comment is there to make editors aware of this. In other words, my comment was about the style of "Mayor", not the existence of a Mayor! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 16:22, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

::Section (2) of the legislation you cite begins:

(1)The Authority shall consist of—
:(a) the Mayor of London;...

Why would the Act provide for a Mayor but not allow him to be addressed as such?   What would be the point of the restriction? [[Special:Contributions/89.240.112.154|89.240.112.154]] ([[User talk:89.240.112.154|talk]]) 16:50, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

:Insane, right? I think that it's just one of the oddities of the UK constitution! Mayors of single authorities are entitled to the style, as per the Local Government Act 2000, s 9H(2), but that subsection only applies to mayors elected under the provisions made by or under part 1A of the Local Government Act 2000 and I can't see how that applies to the Mayor of London. My theory is that it was forgotten when the Greater London Authority Act 1999 was being drafted and hasn't been fixed yet (because, let's be honest, it's not going to be any government's top priority, though incidentally I would like to see a local government consolidation act). 
:I can't see how somebody could have the style of mayor (for a mayoralship first elected in 2000) but not have it granted by primary legislation. Too, Debretts [https://www.debretts.com/expertise/forms-of-address/professions/local-government says] that "[n]o courtesy title or style has been ascribed to the office of Mayor of London." But feel free to correct me if you can find any provision to the contrary! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 17:21, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
::Checking the Act cited, section 9C(2) says "The executive may consist of-
:::(a) an elected mayor of the authority".

Section 9H.(1) says:

In this part "elected mayor", in relation to a local authority, means an individual elected as mayor of the authority by the local government electors fror the authority's area...

Sub-paragraph (2) says:

An elected mayor is to be entitled to the style of "mayor"

Section (2) falls within Part I of the Act and section (9) falls within Part 1A.   Thus the exclusion of the courtesy title "The Worshipful" under section 9 does not extend to mayors elected by the councillors under section 2.   This is borne out by Debrett, which says that for mayors who are not directly elected the style is "The Worshipful the Mayor of...".   The Mayor of London, being directly elected, is referred to as "The Mayor of London" and similarly with other directly elected mayors.   If he has been appointed to the Privy Council he will have the style "The Right Honourable".   What I'm not seeing is any prohibition on directly-elected mayors being addressed as "Mayor". [[Special:Contributions/89.240.112.154|89.240.112.154]] ([[User talk:89.240.112.154|talk]]) 14:01, 22 June 2021 (UTC)   

:I don't think that LGA 2000 s 9H(1) applies here, as the Greater London Authority isn't a local authority ([https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-government-structure-and-elections see gov.uk]).
:I also don't think that you'll ever find any prohibition in law that says that the Mayor of London isn't entitled to the style of "Mayor". As I say above, the fact that there is no provision granting the Mayor of London the style of "Mayor" (in my view) must be a minor drafting oversight, rather than a deliberate decision.
:The crux of what I'm saying is that I can't see anything in law (or otherwise) that says that the Mayor of London is entitled to the style of/prefix "Mayor". And I can't see how a statutory provision wouldn't be required to grant this.
:What I'm not saying is that it is incorrect to call Sadiq Khan "The Mayor" or "The Mayor of London" or indeed address letters to him this way. But what I am saying is that, say if you were writing a letter to him, as far as I'm aware, it should technically start "Dear Mr Khan" instead of "Dear Mayor Khan", unlike a letter to the Mayor of Greater Manchester (which as far as I'm aware should technically start "Dear Mayor Burnham", because Andy Burnham is entitled to the style under Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009, s 107A(5)). As an aside, I don't think that the Debretts article has been updated since combined authorities were introduced. 
:Although the above Debretts article satisfies me that Khan isn't entitled to the style of/prefix Mayor, I'm happy to have that note from Khan's article removed, so long as "Mayor" isn't added in its place. We must remember that we are talking about the most minor of details here, though it is interesting! One way to solve this might be through asking the Greater London Authority itself. [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 17:23, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
::I think you're comparing apples and oranges here.   Combined authorities (of which the GLA is not one) do not have a mayor unless the government allows it.   Apart from the mayor, all their members are appointed, not elected.   All the members of the GLA are elected.   The mayors of elected authorities have always had the status of "Mayor" despite there being no specific statutory provision conferring the title.   Hence when the office of Mayor of the GLA was created there was no need to specifically provide that the office holder had the status of "Mayor". 

:::Thanks for replying. I'm completely with you that the GLA is a different beast to a combined authority, though most of its actual staff is appointed, including the Deputy Mayors who are political figures. Nonetheless, I see your point and completely agree with you in that respect. I also think that it's important to note again that the Greater London Authority is also not a local authority. I finally wanted to note that I'm talking about, and the change in Sadiq Khan's article refers to, styles/prefixes, not statuses. 
:::I found this article, [[List of post-nominal letters (United Kingdom)]], quite interesting. In it, it is discussed how there was debate at first (and seemingly no legal authority) as to the post-nominal letters of AMs. The post-nominal letters of "AM", seemingly, therefore, didn't require legislation to be granted. However, the fact that the 2000 Act and 2009 Act both refer to the style of "Mayor" still makes be believe that the style of "Mayor" must require a legal authority to be granted, particularly to an office that was only first elected in 2000.
:::Apart from whether legislation is required to confer the style of "Mayor" or whether it can be confered without, I think that we're in agreement. I wonder whether it would be worth seeing what other editors have to say on this point, by linking this very interesting debate to Sadiq Khan's and the Mayor of London's talk page. Speak to you soon. [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 16:57, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

section

== UK National Security Council ==

Hi,

I'm busy iin RL but saw these links that show changes to the NSC membership and structures:

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/37957/pdf/

Changes to the NSC
The Prime Minister has agreed the new terms of reference for the NSC. He has concluded
that he will chair NSCs once a month and more frequently if circumstances dictate. Given the
breadth and ambition of the agenda we have to deliver, Ministers will also meet as a subcommittee to the NSC as “National Security Ministers” (NSM), with a senior minister in the
chair on issues that the Prime Minister wishes to delegate. On matters of foreign policy, the
Foreign Secretary will chair; on homeland security, it will be the Home Secretary; the
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster will chair on matters of resilience; the Chancellor of
the Exchequer on questions of our economic security; and if it is necessary for NSM to
discuss Europe or trade related issues, it will be the Minister of State at the Cabinet Office.
To keep the discussion decision focused and strategic, the core membership of NSC will be
reduced to:
● Prime Minister (Chair)
● Chancellor of the Exchequer
● Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs and First
Secretary of State
● Secretary of State for the Home Department
● Secretary of State for Defence
● Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster
● Minister of State at the Cabinet Office (Lord Frost)
● Attorney General

https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/2499/pdf/

cc {{reply to|Mmitchell10}} If interested. 

[[User:Condo951795|Condo951795]] ([[User talk:Condo951795|talk]]) 11:34, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

:Hey! Thanks for these - I will update the article this afternoon. Thanks again! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 11:58, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

::{{Done}} I've had a go at updating the article. It could do with some work ([[Talk:National Security Council (United Kingdom)#Possible useful sources|and I've made a list of possibly useful sources]]), but at least it's up to date! Thanks again for the heads up about the new sources: the first was really useful, but I'm afraid that I couldn't really find a way to work in the second one (though I have to admit that I didn't try too hard; another editor would probably be able to do it!) Thanks again! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 21:08, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

==Disambiguation link notification for August 10==

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited [[National Security Council (United Kingdom)]], you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages [[PC]] and [[CMG]]<!-- ([//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dablinks.py/National_Security_Council_%28United_Kingdom%29 check to confirm]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py/National_Security_Council_%28United_Kingdom%29?client=notify fix with Dab solver])-->. 

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:{{Fixed}} [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 06:40, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

== Australian prime ministers, to be or not to be. ==

FWIW, I'm not suggesting that ''caretaker'', ''acting'' or ''interim'' is wrong, concerning Australian prime ministers. Just pointing out the inconsistencies between the office article & the related bios. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 19:20, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

PS: I thank you for not being insulting to me, at the Australian PM talkpage. Unlike that other fellow. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 19:22, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

:Absolutely, you didn't come across that way at all! And I completely agree with you that consistency would be better than the current situation. That was also very rude of that user, I am sorry about that. Detailed knowledge isn't a necessary qualification for editing Wikipedia, but, for what it's worth, you still seem to have it! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 19:35, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
::Thanks :) [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 19:38, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

== List of government ministers of the United Kingdom ==

Hi FollowTheTortoise, how do you feel about PoliceSheep99's complete re-work of [[List of government ministers of the United Kingdom]]? Thanks. [[User:Mmitchell10|Mmitchell10]] ([[User talk:Mmitchell10|talk]]) 06:54, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

:Hey - thanks for messaging me. From the banner at the top of the page, it looks like editing is still in progress. I'm not at all opposed to the article becoming a list of the current offices in use, since we have the template to give a basic overview (I have been meaning to add some styling to the template, but I keep forgetting), but I do worry that adding offices that are no longer in use (a) might lead to unwieldy and perhaps never complete lists and (b) might be unsourced (no source for these older offices have been used yet, as far as I'm aware). But I'd like to wait until the edits are done to form a proper opinion! Perhaps once this happens editors could take any thoughts that they have to the article's talk page? Thanks again. [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 13:21, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
::Very sensible, thank you, will do the same and wait to see how it ends up looking. Regards. [[User:Mmitchell10|Mmitchell10]] ([[User talk:Mmitchell10|talk]]) 14:50, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

== United Kingdom cabinet committee National Space Council ==

Alright saw the revert. Yet the list is dated, do we take that the Space Council exists? Further searches on the web do not confirm it or the Chair(s).

Also in the article, many sources are from archived links. Not really the fault. Gov.uk has not updated many of its links. Good Sunday.

[[User:Condo951795|Condo951795]] ([[User talk:Condo951795|talk]]) 13:58, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

:Hi @[[User:Condo951795|Condo951795]]. Good Sunday to you too and thanks for the message! There isn't much online about the National Space Council, but I did find [https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/uk-general-statement-copuos-64th-session this speech] from Wednesday which mentions the National Space Council as a current 'thing' (it also mentions that it's chaired by Boris Johnson). [https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/scotlands-space-industry-how-the-uk-government-is-helping-this-burgeoning-high-tech-industry-to-take-off-iain-stewart-3348280 This recent Scotsman article] also refers to it. So I am pretty convinced that the National Security Council still exists. It would be good if we could get a new 'List of Cabinet Committees' from the UK government soon (the last one being from November 2020), but until then, and without any sources pointing otherwise, I think that we should still take the November 2020 list as conclusive. 
:As for the other sources in the article, because Cabinet Committees are quite liquid-like, some of the article and its sources may very well be outdated. I can try and work on that if I can find the time! Thanks again! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 14:13, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
:: ok can you add it there?[[User:Condo951795|Condo951795]] ([[User talk:Condo951795|talk]]) 02:18, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
:::What do you want me to add? [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 11:10, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
:::: The  above references or what is relevant? [[User:Condo951795|Condo951795]] ([[User talk:Condo951795|talk]]) 11:36, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
:::::As we already have a source for the name of the committee, its chair and deputy chair and its terms of reference, I don't think that we need to add any more sources. I also don't think that we need to continually prove that a committee continues to exist unless there are reliable sources pointing otherwise or the source in question is hopelessly outdated. Feel free to add the sources yourself, but I don't think that they're necessary. I will also try and fix the article when I have the time, but I'm a little busy at the moment - sorry! Thanks again for your messages! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 11:56, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

== Deputy Prime Minister of Canada ==

The issue is that the Canadian cabinet's order of precedence is ''not'' an order of succession, and has absolutely ''nothing'' to do with determining who would become the new Prime Minister in the event that Justin Trudeau were to die in office or be forced to suddenly resign — it only dictates the order in which people can act on behalf of the Prime Minister in the event that Justin Trudeau is ''temporarily'' unavailable. If, say, there was a hurricane making a beeline toward Ottawa while Justin Trudeau was out of town at a G7 summit, then that order of precedence would apply in determining who has the authority to shut down the government offices and send the civil servants home for the day: if Chrystia Freeland can't be reached then call Laurence MacAulay, and if he can't be reached either then try Carolyn Bennett next, and on and so forth. 

It has absolutely ''nothing whatsoever'' to do with what would happen if, say, Justin Trudeau were to die in a plane crash on his way to or from the G7 summit. That is, it does ''not'' set in stone that Chrystia Freeland is automatically the new PM in the plane crash scenario, or that Laurence MacAulay is automatically the new PM if Chrystia Freeland was on the plane too, and on and so forth — in such an event, the Liberal Party has to meet to choose its ''own'' new leader, and its hands are ''not'' tied by whatever orders in council Justin Trudeau had issued while he was alive. The deputy prime minister does ''not'' automatically become the new prime minister in that scenario, the second person in that order of precedence does ''not'' automatically become the new prime minister if the PM and DPM are both dead, and on and so forth — the surviving members of the Liberal ''caucus'' get to choose their new leader ''themselves''.

That's the fundamental issue: it simply is not equivalent to the US presidential line of succession at all, and has absolutely nothing to do with the order in which anybody would move up the ranks in the event of the prime minister's death. So it doesn't belong in our article about the deputy prime minister's role, because it has nothing to do with that — if content about the cabinet's order of precedence is desired, then the deputy prime minister's article is not where it belongs.

And no, the section as written is not unsourced, either. [[User:Bearcat|Bearcat]] ([[User talk:Bearcat|talk]]) 12:04, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

:Thanks for your detailed reply! I think that you misunderstood me though (or perhaps I didn't explain myself very well). What I'd like to do is add the following two sentences, which are very similar to the ones that were in the article before, though I have removed the paragraph break and the phrase "...line of succession..." because reading your comment made me think that it might cause confusion to our readers:
:<code>The Prime Minister sets a list of ministers who are able to perform prime ministerial functions and are authorized to act for the Prime Minister if the Prime Minister is unable to perform the functions of their office, in [[Order in Council|orders in council]] known as Acting Ministers Minutes.<ref>{{Cite web|date=27 November 2015|title=Open and Accountable Government 2015|url=https://pm.gc.ca/en/news/backgrounders/2015/11/27/open-and-accountable-government|url-status=live|access-date=30 August 2021|website=pm.gc.ca|language=}}</ref><ref name=":1">[https://orders-in-council.canada.ca/attachment.php?attach=40243&lang=en 2021-0073]</ref> The incumbent Deputy Prime Minister, [[Chrystia Freeland]], currently heads this line.<ref name=":1" /></code>
:It is clear to me that succession and inability, as subject matters, go hand in hand (as they do on [[Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom]]), so where one is discussed the other should be too. It is particularly pertinent in this case as the incumbent Deputy Prime Minister, Chrystia Freeland, is second in the aforementioned list.
:And I can see now that the most important part of the current section on succession is sourced, based on the following quote from [https://policyoptions.irpp.org/magazines/august-2020/the-role-of-deputy-prime-minister-is-not-as-powerful-as-most-think/ the Policy Options article]: "[t]here is no provision in the Canadian Constitution for a 'number two position' stepping into the PM’s role. Canada is not akin to a presidential system, with a vice-president enshrined in the constitution as the successor upon resignation, impeachment or death of the president. The elected PM is the PM for the life of the government, unless he or she resigns or dies in office, at which point an interim leader is selected by the government caucus, subject to endorsement by the governor general." It was my mistake to remove that information last month and it should definitely be included. It was because the information on succession was removed and replaced with information on Acting Ministers Minutes that I renamed the section 'Inability', but I can now see that they should go together in one section called 'Succession' (or 'Succession and inability' if you'd be more comfortable with that).
:But it remains that most of the current section is unsourced, including some information in the first two sentences (for example, "[a]lthough he or she may serve in an [[Acting (law)|acting]] capacity on a temporary [[Caretaker government|caretaker]] basis to ensure continuity of government function during the immediate period of transition, the deputy prime minister does not automatically become the new permanent prime minister"). Before I made the edits last month, there had been a 'More citations needed section' banner (which, for the record, I didn't add) on the section since September 2020, so it would be great if we could (as well as adding the above sentences on Acting Ministers Minutes) remove the unsourced statements from that section. I hope that that makes sense and thanks for responding so quickly! [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 13:12, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
::Hey @[[User:Bearcat|Bearcat]], I don't want to spam you, but I just wondered whether you had read my above message? [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 11:39, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

== Counsellors of State ==

Hi, I've left you a message on the talk page. [[User:Richard75|Richard75]] ([[User talk:Richard75|talk]]) 12:05, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

== Slight govt reshuffle - do you have access to the Telegraph? ==

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/09/10/suella-bravermans-return-maternity-forces-cabinet-mini-reshuffle/

I'll post the relevant part

"It was a modest change, however, that resulted from the return of Suella Braverman from maternity leave rather than the seismic restructuring of his top team that was widely anticipated...The 41-year-old QC was reappointed Attorney General following six months off in the wake of the arrival of her second child....Number 10 confirmed on Friday that, as part of a mini-reshuffle, Mr Ellis and Ms Frazer would return to their previous roles."

You might wish to update the politics articles you made and expanded.

Regards

[[User:Condo951795|Condo951795]] ([[User talk:Condo951795|talk]]) 04:57, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

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== A barnstar for you! ==

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:Thank you - that's very kind. I'm looking forward to returning when I've got a bit more time in my life for Wikipedia! Merry Christmas to you and yours! :) [[User:FollowTheTortoise|FollowTheTortoise]] ([[User talk:FollowTheTortoise#top|talk]]) 15:30, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

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