View source for User talk:Nlu/archive61

==Xiang Yu==
Hi, I noticed from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Xiang_Yu&action=history history] of [[Xiang Yu]] that you are one of the major contributors to the article. I mean no disrespect to you and the others by giving the article a big "revamp" in the past few days. I've a habit (some consider to be a bad one) of rewriting articles that I perceive to be poorly written in terms of structure and language. I see that you've contributed significantly to many articles about the [[Chu–Han contention]], so I believe that's one of your specialties in Chinese history? Check out the current revision of the article. Do you have any suggestions on how to improve it? Are you interested in working on a [[WP:WikiProject Chu–Han contention]] or something? Thanks. _[[User:Lonelydarksky|LDS]] ([[User_talk:Lonelydarksky|talk]]) 10:04, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
:I appreciate it.  I don't consider the Chu-Han Contention a "specialty" of mine, but I do have an interest in it.  Right now, I'm writing on a series of Tang Dynasty-related articles, but I'd have mild interest.  --15:18, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
::I've submitted a request for peer review [[Wikipedia:Peer review/Xiang Yu/archive1|here]]. Please do provide some suggestions for improvements. Thanks. _[[User:Lonelydarksky|LDS]] ([[User_talk:Lonelydarksky|talk]]) 08:24, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
:::Will do when I get a chance.  I'm in the middle of a jury trial right now, so it might take a week or more for me to be able to get to it.  Thanks.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 04:31, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
::::Thanks for your response. Please take your time. _[[User:Lonelydarksky|LDS]] ([[User_talk:Lonelydarksky|talk]]) 04:37, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
:::::Trial is over, but I'm taking a bit of time to recuperate before doing much online.  Will look at it when I get a chance.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 03:08, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

==Unreferenced BLPs==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]] Hello Nlu! Thank you for your contributions. I am a [[WP:BOT|bot]] alerting you that '''3''' of the articles that you created   are tagged as[[Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Sources| Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons]]. The [[WP:BLP|biographies of living persons]] policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to ensure [[WP:VERRIFY|verifiability]], all biographies should be based on [[WP:RELIABLE|reliable sources]]. If you were to bring these articles up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current ''[[:Category:All_unreferenced_BLPs|{{PAGESINCATEGORY:All unreferenced_BLPs}}]]'' article backlog. Once the articles are adequately referenced, please remove the {{tl|unreferencedBLP}} tag. Here is the list:

# [[Scot Shields]] - <small>{{Find sources|Scot Shields}}</small>
# [[Rolando Arrojo]] - <small>{{Find sources|Rolando Arrojo}}</small>
# [[Rick Distaso]] - <small>{{Find sources|Rick Distaso}}</small>
Thanks!--[[User:DASHBot|DASHBot]] ([[User talk:DASHBot|talk]]) 23:04, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

== [[Chinese armies (pre-1911)]] ==

I would like to get your opinion and assistance on this article, especially since certain editors have appeared with a somewhat prejudiced agenda.[[User:Teeninvestor|Teeninvestor]] ([[User talk:Teeninvestor|talk]]) 15:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
:I am not an expert on military strategies or equipment, but I'd be happy to look at specific points.  Do you have a few specific ones in mind that you want me to look at?  (Please also keep in mind that probably the time periods of expertise that I would consider myself to have would be the time between the [[Sixteen Kingdoms]] period and [[Tang Dynasty]], inclusive.)  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 15:50, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

::Yes, I believe your help in expanding this area will be useful. [[User:Teeninvestor|Teeninvestor]] ([[User talk:Teeninvestor|talk]]) 21:29, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

::: Again, specific points on what you want me to look at would be helpful, with an article of this size.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 04:00, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

:::: Perhaps expanding the Sui-Tang and Era of Division period sections?[[User:Teeninvestor|Teeninvestor]] ([[User talk:Teeninvestor|talk]]) 20:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

::::: OK.  I'll take a look when I get a chance.  I'm starting a jury trial, so I might not be able to do anything for a week, but I'll look at it then.  Thanks for getting back to me.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 23:53, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

==Happy Chinese New Year==
Hello, it's a bit late, but still, a happy [[Chinese New Year]] to you! I'm taking a break from Chu–Han articles at the moment and I'm currently working on a potential WikiProject Wuxia. Check out the [[User:Lonelydarksky/Sandbox/WikiProject Wuxia|sandbox page]] here. Maybe you'd like to join and help out in the construction? Cheers! _[[User:Lonelydarksky|LDS]] ([[User_talk:Lonelydarksky|talk]]) 11:47, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
:Thanks.  Sorry about not getting back to you on it.  I'm actually in Taiwan right now, which makes it a bit difficult for me to find time.  I'll be back in the United States on 2/19, and hopefully thereafter I'd be able to do so.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 20:00, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

==Editor review==
Hi, do you mind doing an [[WP:Editor review|editor review]] for me [[WP:Editor review/Lonelydarksky|here]]? Thanks. _[[User:Lonelydarksky|LDS]] ([[User_talk:Lonelydarksky|talk]]) 15:00, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
:To tell the truth, I've never done one, and I'm not sure that I'm qualified to...  But if/when I have time, I'll look a bit at your edits.  Thanks for asking me.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 15:50, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
::Thanks for your help. I look forward to reading your review, doesn't matter whether it's formal or not. _[[User:Lonelydarksky|LDS]] ([[User_talk:Lonelydarksky|talk]]) 04:36, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
::: Sorry I haven't done the review yet.  It's just been one thing after another for me.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 20:53, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
::::It's alright, please take your time. But I hope that you can help me do the review within the 4 weeks or so, because I'll be going on a long wikibreak (about 2 months) after that. Thanks for your time, and I apologise if this has caused you some inconvenience. _[[User:Lonelydarksky|LDS]] ([[User_talk:Lonelydarksky|talk]]) 06:52, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

== FYI ==

[[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Review of indefinite rangeblocks]]. –[[user:xeno|<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b>]][[user talk:xeno|<sup style="color:black;">talk</sup>]] 17:20, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
:Thanks for letting me know.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 20:53, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

== Xin and Wang Mang ==

Hey Nice job on updating Chinese history articles! Do you believe it would be better if we
Merge (?) -> [[Xin Dynasty]] with [[Wang Mang]] --[[User:LLTimes|LLTimes]] ([[User talk:LLTimes|talk]]) 19:13, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
:I can see plusses and minuses for both approaches; they really can be articles with different focuses, but since he's the only emperor for Xin, it may also make sense to merge.  I have no strong opinions.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 23:47, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

::Hmm because currently, most of the information on Xin Dynasty is in Wang Mang's page, well I guess we will need more inputs from other wikipedians on this matter, I've posted in Xin Dynasty's talk page. --[[User:LLTimes|LLTimes]] ([[User talk:LLTimes|talk]]) 23:02, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

== [[Yen Xishan]] move to [[Yan Xishan]] ==
Can you make the move ? Need admin rights. Thanks Nlu ;) [[User:Yug|Yug]] [[User talk:Yug|<small><span style="color:green;">(talk)</span></small>]] 09:05, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
:Done. :-)  But please check what printed sources use more, because Yan was an ROC general/politician as opposed to a PRC one or an ancient one.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 12:56, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

==Hi Nlu!==

Long time, no see, old friend. How are you? 

What's your latest biography project? Recently I've been working on [[Parthian Empire]]. You should check it out; it actually has a decent amount of info on the [[Han Dynasty]] and Sino-Persian trade relations (or, to point to the obvious, the [[Silk Road]]). Cheers.--<strong>[[User:PericlesofAthens|<span style="color:blue;">Pericles of Athens</span>]]</strong><sup>[[User talk:PericlesofAthens|<span style="color:#0000CD;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 02:49, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
:Good to hear from you!  I'll check out the article when I get a chance.  Meanwhile, I'm working on some biographies that are approaching the end of the Tang -- which was a huge mess in term of determining who were sufficiently notable to be covered. :-)  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 04:11, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
::That's excellent! Share some links when you are finished. Cheers.--<strong>[[User:PericlesofAthens|<span style="color:blue;">Pericles of Athens</span>]]</strong><sup>[[User talk:PericlesofAthens|<span style="color:#0000CD;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 04:19, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
:::A couple that I recently wrote/revised, which may interest you, would include [[Pang Xun]], [[Gao Pian]], and [[Li Guochang]].  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 04:23, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
::::I love your biography articles; these three men are such different characters and reveal so much about the chaotic conditions in society towards the end of the Tang Dynasty. Very cool stuff. I also hope you like the Parthian Empire article; in it, I mention the earliest tomes of the Twenty-Four Histories, as well as what Sima Qian had to say about the Parthians. In that article, I also inserted [[:File:Silk from Mawangdui 2.jpg|a fabulous image of Han-dynasty silk]], which is very exquisite. Cheers.--<strong>[[User:PericlesofAthens|<span style="color:blue;">Pericles of Athens</span>]]</strong><sup>[[User talk:PericlesofAthens|<span style="color:#0000CD;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 03:21, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

==A Three Kingdoms articles I'd like help on...==
Hey Nlu, it's been a long time since I asked for your help. Can you take a look at [[Battle to the Southwest of Xiakou]]? It's supposed to be a precursor to the actual [[Battle of Red Cliffs]] but Sanguo Zhi and Zizhi Tongjian don't have anything more about this skirmish than one sentence. I am having serious doubts about this article and I suspect it is a hoax. I have tried to prod it but another editor became misled by the "Further readings" section, which I believe wasn't used to source the article at all, and removed the prod. (I can't check, but if those books actually support the claims put forth in the article, I'd be inclined to discount those as reliable sources.) So I guess what I'm asking is, do you think I should send this article to AfD? Thanks. [[User:Deadkid dk|_dk]] ([[User talk:Deadkid dk|talk]]) 07:32, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
:The only thing that I could find is a brief sentence in [[Zhou Yu]]'s biography in the ''[[Sanguo Zhi]]'' ([[:zh:s:三國志/卷54|vol. 54]]).  I do suspect that it is a hoax, or, at best, educated speculation by the sources that the article cites, although not necessarily a "hoax" in the sense that the author of this article made it up, just that it is the result of speculation.  I'd consider sending it to AfD.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 13:11, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
::Thanks Nlu! =) For the moment I have redirected it to Battle of Red Cliffs. If that gets reverted then I'll try AFD. [[User:Deadkid dk|_dk]] ([[User talk:Deadkid dk|talk]]) 17:20, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

==Ahoy!==

Hello there NLU, do you like to smoke some cigars?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/193.120.161.6|193.120.161.6]] ([[User talk:193.120.161.6|talk]]) 11:40, 11 May 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:I don't smoke...  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 12:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Well I think like this you will be very healthy my friend. Do you like to be living in USA?  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:193.120.161.6|193.120.161.6]] ([[User talk:193.120.161.6|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/193.120.161.6|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:Short answer: yes.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 14:07, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Well I have been all over. In Germany, in London and now I am in Belfast but I have never been to USA.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/193.120.161.6|193.120.161.6]] ([[User talk:193.120.161.6|talk]]) 10:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Ashina Jiesheshuai==
謝謝/谢谢 [[User:Takabeg|Takabeg]] ([[User talk:Takabeg|talk]]) 16:11, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
:No, 謝謝 you!  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 16:13, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

== delete this prank article ==

i was browsing as an anonymous ip in <small>[[:Category:Chinese military personnel stubs]]</small>  when i came across [[Tang Minglong|this phony article]]. It looks to me like a prank, since there are no sources, there is no corresponding article on chinese wikipedia, and it was created by a banned account. since you're a chinese, i assume you'd know that this person is a fake, so i created this account and came to you, and anyway, even if hes not, the person isn't very notable and doesn't need an article here.[[User:False spotter|False spotter]] ([[User talk:False spotter|talk]]) 23:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
:I have insufficient knowledge in this area to tell whether this is a fake article or not.  I'd suggest submitting it to [[WP:AFD]].  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 04:45, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

==Deletion of Toyota Camry Hybrid==
Hi. I though you might be interested in participation in this discussion [[Talk:Toyota Camry Hybrid#Restoring_this_article]]. There is a user that wants to merge all hybrid model specific articles with the article of the main model.-[[User:Mariordo|Mariordo]] ([[User talk:Mariordo|talk]]) 16:35, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
:Thanks.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 21:04, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
==Talkback==
{{talkback|Acroterion|ts=15:30, 3 July 2010 (UTC)}}

==鍛奴==
Hi. What do you think about [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Bumin_Qaghan&action=historysubmit&diff=375518901&oldid=375405933 A] & [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=G%C3%B6kt%C3%BCrks&diff=prev&oldid=375519407 B]. I know that the concept of 鍛奴 isn't used not only Anagui's personal view but also class issues. [[User:Takabeg|Takabeg]] ([[User talk:Takabeg|talk]]) 11:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
:I am not enamored with the view of equating 奴 with "slave" automatically, but I think both having the concept and not having the concept are defensible.  What I think you should do is to discuss this on one of the talk pages, alert CenkX to the discussion, and invite him/her to join the discussion.  [[Bo Yang]], incidentally, avoided the "slave" concept and referred to them as blacksmiths only.  Perhaps that is more neutral.  (And if you want to do that, you can cite to Bo or to ''[[Zizhi Tongjian]]'' directly.)  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 13:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
: In most of books and articles, "double quote" is used and I also use it. (e.g. 丁勇, 從「鍛奴」到汗國—突厥族的演進及與唐王朝的關係, 歷史月刊 Vol. 163: 北方遊牧民族與中原王朝的 / 歷史分合, August 1, 2001, pp. 22-28.) OK I'll control ''[[Zizhi Tongjian]]'' and add it to article. Thank you. [[User:Takabeg|Takabeg]] ([[User talk:Takabeg|talk]]) 13:46, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
:: P.S. In which book or article does Bo Yang mention to this issue ? [[User:Takabeg|Takabeg]] ([[User talk:Takabeg|talk]]) 13:50, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

And do you know [http://www.akademiai.com/content/p70t7648u7255533/ this article] which refers to the Rouran society as a slave-owning system. [[:zh:木骨闾|木骨闾]] was also "slave". [[User:Takabeg|Takabeg]] ([[User talk:Takabeg|talk]]) 14:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
:I am not in school these days (haven't been for about 13 years now), so I don't really have the same kind of access to academic studies as I used to.  With that being the case, I am not sure I am qualified to review the article for its reliability.  I do agree that Rouran (as well as any Asian society at the time) was, at least to some degree, a slave-owning society.  On the other hand, because of the double use of Chinese characters (for meaning and for sound) particularly in the context of the use of those characters to describe non-Han names, I am less comfortable with the idea of ascribing a meaning to every Chinese character that is used.  In other words, I would be hesitant to directly translate 匈奴 as "savage slaves," for example.  Further, while it was noted in Chinese texts that [[Helian Bobo]]'s change of the surname from Liu to Helian (赫連) was intended to denote a grand (赫) connection (連) to Heaven, it has always been disputed, ever since Northern Wei days, whether "Helian" was actually intended for that use or was a transliteration of a Xiongnu term.
:For the original text of the ''Zizhi Tongjian'' that I was referring to, see ''Zizhi Tongjian'', [[:zh:s:資治通鑑/卷159|vol. 159]] -- specifically, this passage:
::突厥本西方小國，姓阿史那氏，世居金山之陽，為柔然鐵工。
::(What I would translate as, "Tujue was originally a minor state to the west, with the surname [[Ashina]].  They lived north of the [[Altai Mountains]] for generations, and served as ironsmiths for the [[Rouran]].")
:Given the general acceptance (both in Song and later times) of the ''Zizhi Tongjian'' as a reliable source with very little controversy, and given [[Sima Guang]]'s general tendency to be careful in his descriptions, I would adopt it.
:(As for Bo, he basically translated this into modern Chinese; I can look up his translation of this specific passage if you really want to, but I think a direct cite to the ''Zizhi Tongjian'' is sufficient; this is not a particularly arcane passage.)  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 02:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

: Thank you very much. I used ''Zizhi Tongjian'', [[:zh:s:資治通鑑/卷159|vol. 159]]. And I found an explanation about blacksmith slave like this: 

Larry W. Moses, ''Relations with the Inner Asian Barbarian'', ed. John Curtis Perry, Bardwell L. Smith, ''Essays on Tʻang society: the interplay of social, political and economic forces'', Brill Archive, 1976, {{ISBN|9789004047617}}, p. 65. [http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=5s4UAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA65&dq=Blacksmith+slave+Juan+Juan&hl=tr&ei=UE9PTNXaItTzcbvEmaUB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFMQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Blacksmith%20slave%20Juan%20Juan&f=false '''Slave' probably meant vassalage to the Juan Juan confederation of Mongolia, whom they served in battle by providing iron weapons, and also marching with qaghan's armies.'']

And [[Helian Bobo]] is very interesting figure. [[:zh:铁弗|铁弗]] = 杂胡 and according to ''Book of Sui'' Ashina was also 杂胡. See you. [[User:Takabeg|Takabeg]] ([[User talk:Takabeg|talk]]) 22:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
:Thank you.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 03:37, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

==結社爾 or 結社率==
[[Xue Zongzheng]] said that the letter 率 (of [[Ashina Jiesheshuai]]) is a wrong use in 薛宗正《突厥史》, pp. 388-389. I want your oppinion too. Thank you. [[User:Takabeg|Takabeg]] ([[User talk:Takabeg|talk]]) 14:27, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
:I am not inclined to disregard traditional sources on this without conclusive evidence -- say, a future archaeological find that conclusively use "結社爾" rather than "結社率."  Since all traditional sources use "結社率," I feel that's more reliable than "結社爾," with all due respect to Xue.  Again, if archaeological evidence overturns that in the future, I'd be willing to reconsider.  (This is unlike the [[Xue Rengao]] vs. Xue Renguo controversy, where there is a split among the traditional sources themselves.)  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 02:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
: Thanks. I understood. [[User:Takabeg|Takabeg]] ([[User talk:Takabeg|talk]]) 03:52, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
::Thank ''you''.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 05:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
:::Actually, I just realized that ''[[Book of Tang]]'' uses 結社爾.  Still, I find 結社率 more reliable, but I am now less convinced than I was.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]])

==Bumin==
Hi Nlu. Can I ask a question about Bumin ?

İbrahim Kafesoğlu] wrote that ''Still in 534, Bumin established political relationship with the government of Northen (Western) Tabgach (Wei) and in 542 he had been seen near the Yellow River.''<ref>İbrahim Kafesoğlu, ''Türk millî kültürü'' (Turkish national culture), Ayyıldız matbaası, 1977, [http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=FDkBAAAAMAAJ&q=Bumin+534&dq=Bumin+534&hl=tr&ei=Z9dVTInBMYbWvQPgosjxAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ p. 79.]</ref>

Do you have historical sources about this issues ? 
*北魏孝武帝[[:zh:永熙 (北魏)|永熙]]三年=公元534年
*西魏文帝[[:zh:大统 (西魏)|大统]]元年=公元535年

Thank you.

[[User:Takabeg|Takabeg]] ([[User talk:Takabeg|talk]]) 20:38, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

And what do you think about 

At the beginning of 6th century, the [[Rouran Khaganate]] was weakened during the war aginst [[Gaoche]] Fuzhiluo's tribe. Kök Türks took advantage of this chance, in 541 they moved south from the southern foot of [[Altay mountains]]. After the decline of Gaoche, [[Anagui]] made them aristocrat of the Rouran Khaganate. In 542, Kök Türks expanded its territory beyond the east of desert and reached to [[Ordos]].<ref>張豈之, 王子今, 方光華, 秦汉魏晋南北朝史, 五南圖書出版股份有限公司, 2002, {{ISBN|9789571128702}}, [http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=RIBttwx-v8IC&pg=PA463&dq=542+%E7%AA%81%E5%8E%A5&hl=tr&ei=vfFVTITvK46MvQO884EZ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=542%20%E7%AA%81%E5%8E%A5&f=false p. 463.]</ref>

I found that

[[:zh:s:周書/卷27]] ([[:zh:大统 (西魏)|大统]])八年 (542)..........每歲河冰合後，突厥即來寇掠

But we can't say there was political relations.............

I must go home. See you. [[User:Takabeg|Takabeg]] ([[User talk:Takabeg|talk]]) 23:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

===Sources===
{{reflist}}

:Hi --
:My thoughts are that, absent my having more reliable sources available to me, I'd rather rely on the ''Zizhi Tongjian''.  (Again, this doesn't mean that it actually is the ''most reliable'' or ''best'' source, just that I am unqualified to judge the other sources cited here to be reliable.)  According to the ''Zizhi Tongjian'', the relationship between Western Wei and the Tujue did not start until 545, when [[Yuwen Tai]] sent Annuo Pantuo to Tujue (not the other way around, as the [[Bumin]] article currently state) to establish relations.
:As far as your reference to the ''[[Book of Zhou]]'' is concerned — it is my opinion that while the date is correct and appears to establish that there were Tujue raids from 542, that doesn't mean that there were political relations.  Indeed, the ''Zizhi Tongjian'''s entry in 545 states:
::至其酋長土門，始強大，頗侵魏西邊。
:This suggests that when Bumin became chieftain (although not using the title of khan yet), he became strong, and was beginning to raid the western regions of Western Wei.  So it makes sense that these raids were occurring ''before'' the 545 establishment of relations (which presumably decreased these raids, if not eliminated them).
:For more of the chronology, also see ''Book of Zhou'', [[:zh:s:周書/卷50|vol. 50]].
:I do not believe Ibrahim's 534 date to be supported by any Chinese source, and given that it is an assertion about Tujue-Wei relations, I think not having a Chinese source to corroborate makes his assertion here unreliable.  (The ''[[Book of Wei]]'', for example, does not mention Tujue ''at all''.)  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 03:00, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

: 非常感谢 [[User:Takabeg|Takabeg]] ([[User talk:Takabeg|talk]]) 07:47, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

:: P.S. Maybe An Noupantou is correct. Because of [[:zh:安国 (昭武九姓)|安国]]. [[User:Takabeg|Takabeg]] ([[User talk:Takabeg|talk]]) 07:52, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
::: No problem.  Thank ''you''.  --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 22:56, 2 August 2010 (UTC)