View source for User talk:Phoebe MSDS

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''Phoebe MSDS, '''good luck, and have fun.''''' [[User:PamD|<span style="color: green">'''''Pam'''''</span>]][[User talk:PamD|<span style="color: brown">'''''D'''''</span>]] 17:03, 14 October 2020 (UTC)</div> [[User:PamD|<span style="color: green">'''''Pam'''''</span>]][[User talk:PamD|<span style="color: brown">'''''D'''''</span>]] 17:03, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

== Content Removal ==
Hi Phoebe, 
I noticed that in [[Special:Diff/982167140|this edit]] you removed a large amount of text without explaining why; I have reinstated it for now. Was there a specific reason or was this done by accident? Best, — [[User:Blablubbs|Blablubbs]] <sup>([[User talk:Blablubbs|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/Blablubbs|contribs]])</sup> 15:13, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi, it is content that I just wrote, but it was copied from the Historic England webpage for the wreck, so on second thoughts I decided to remove it. [[User:Phoebe MSDS|Phoebe MSDS]] ([[User talk:Phoebe MSDS#top|talk]]) 15:15, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
:{{u|Phoebe MSDS}}, ah, that makes sense. I've asked an administrator to hide those revisions from the page history because Wikipedia can't accept copyrighted text without explicit permission. Your link additions are still preserved, however. Best, — [[User:Blablubbs|Blablubbs]] <sup>([[User talk:Blablubbs|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/Blablubbs|contribs]])</sup> 15:19, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

{{u|Blabubbs}} Thank you kindly! [[User:Phoebe MSDS|Phoebe MSDS]] ([[User talk:Phoebe MSDS#top|talk]]) 15:21, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

== Phoebe MSDS, you are invited to the Teahouse! ==


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Hi '''Phoebe MSDS'''! Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia. <br />Be our guest at [[w:WP:teahouse|the Teahouse]]! The Teahouse is a friendly space where new editors can ask questions about contributing to Wikipedia and get help from experienced editors like {{noping|Cullen328}} ([[User_talk:Cullen328|talk]]).

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== Historic England ==

Hi Phoebe.  I notice that a lot of your edit summaries include the phrase "I edited this page ... on behalf of Historic England".  Do you mean that you are doing this at the direction of, or in the course of employment with, Historic England?  If that is the case then you need to read and act upon two policies: [[WP:PAID]] and [[WP:COI]], however if you are just an independent editor being helpful, then welcome, and sorry for being suspicious.  If you need more information or explanations please ask for help here (I shall be watching this page for a while), on my talk page or at either the Teahouse or Village Pump.  Best Wishes, [[User:Martin of Sheffield|Martin of Sheffield]] ([[User talk:Martin of Sheffield|talk]]) 13:20, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi {{u|Martin of Sheffield}}, I am doing this as a volunteer on behalf of Historic England, at their direction. I spoke with other editors yesterday on the help chat about this and they said I just need to declare what I am doing as being on behalf of HE. I'm also adding a statement in the talk page for each article to indicate the edits I have made. All I am doing is adding an external link to the National Heritage List for England record for each proteced wreck in the UK and adding an external link to virtual or physical dive trails where they exist. It is not promotional in anyway. Is this an issue? [[User:Phoebe MSDS|Phoebe MSDS]] ([[User talk:Phoebe MSDS#top|talk]]) 13:42, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

:Thanks for getting back to me.  Clearly WP:PAID doesn't apply in your case, which to be honest is the "biggie".  I did a bit more poking around and see that you have put a notice on the talk page for some of the changes, just our bad luck that you missed the ''Mary Rose'' which was the one I was looking at!  Although talk page notices are sufficient, I would recommend that you also add a notice to your user page and you might want to use the template - see [[WP:DISCLOSE]].  I'm not sure if you are aware, but there are templates to handle NHLE entries, see {{tl|NHLE}}.  For examples, look at [[Listed buildings in Frindsbury]] where the reference is inserted into the body or at [[All Saints Church, Frindsbury]] where is used as a citation.  You seem to be aware of [[WP:COPYVIO]], but of course you can use the NHLE entry as a source provided that you only write your own words into WP.  Please get back to me for any assistance, this looks to be a genuiinly useful exercise, and I would love to see it spread throughout all relevant pages.  Regards, [[User:Martin of Sheffield|Martin of Sheffield]] ([[User talk:Martin of Sheffield|talk]]) 14:10, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi {{u|Martin of Sheffield}} Thanks! Ah I knew I'd missed one, I will correct immediately. I will add a note on my user page too. I am very new to WP editing, I don't really understand how to use the templates. I also have a limited time to do this, whilst I am a volunteer on this particular project, I do have a day job that needs attending to, so I'll stick to adding the note in the talk page for each article, unless there's a 'templates for dummies' article I could read? haha. 

Some background to the project- In 2023 it will be the 50th anniversary of the Protected Wrecks Act and so the trust (in partnership with Historic England) are trying to tidy up all the information available and boost public understanding of the sites. I think the plan will be to add more info to all the WP pages eventually. I'm adding the NHLE records to the articles because the NHLE entries are frequently updated by HE which have lots of info about archaeological intervention and protections. I am also adding links to virtual dive trails of the sites to enable non-divers to explore the wrecks (these are freely available to the public, an educational resource), as well as links to the actualy physical dive trails- these are super important because they provide instructions for divers to dive the wrecks in a way that will not result in damage or degradation to the wreck! I've also tidied up the list of protected wrecks on [[List of designations under the Protection of Wrecks Act|this]] page as there were some mistakes and missing links to associated WP pages :) [[User:Phoebe MSDS|Phoebe MSDS]] ([[User talk:Phoebe MSDS#top|talk]]) 14:49, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

:The templates exist to serve two purposes: to reduce the typing load and to standardise entries.  For instance <nowiki>{{NHLE|num=1000075}}</nowiki> is a lot quicker to add and yields {{NHLE|num=1000075}}.  Given that the page is entitles ''Mary Rose'' we can assume that the reader will realise that it is about the carrack and perhaps the number is of more use?  If you need to add a description, modify the template like this:<nowiki>{{NHLE|num=1000075|desc=a description of the wreck}}</nowiki>{{NHLE|num=1000075|desc=a description of the wreck}}.  For graded buildings (probably not applicable to you) you can also add {{para|1=grade}}.  I realise that WP editing can be a bit daunting at first, I've been here nearly a decade and am still learning.  Most folks are pretty tolerant of newbies, but please do not be upset if someone comes along and edits your work to fit in with WP's style and policies.  As I've said before, please feel free to ask me for help.  FYI I'm and ex-diver, a yachtsman and amateur historian, married to a professional one so am clearly "on your side".  One last thing: in conversations is is conventional to indent each reply by starting it with one or more colons.
::When replying to a reply like this, simply add more colons! [[User:Martin of Sheffield|Martin of Sheffield]] ([[User talk:Martin of Sheffield|talk]]) 15:15, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
:::Is this indentation right? Sorry I didn't know how you were making it indent! I would not be upset at all if someone were to make my edits fit better, only apologetic that I didn't do it right to begin with. I think I will allocate more time for this projcet, as I think there's a lot I could do to improve the articles, and create articles for the wrecks that currently don't have one! RE the templates, could I add that into the little introduction bit at the top of each article? Thanks so much for your help on this, it's really appreciated![[User:Phoebe MSDS|Phoebe MSDS]] ([[User talk:Phoebe MSDS#top|talk]]) 15:28, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
::::You've cracked the indentation.  It helps on complex discussions to see who is replying to which point.  There's a trick when it gets excessive, but more of that later.:-)  The "little introduction bit" is normally called a "lead" (though some people insist on calling it "lede" which is discouraged).  Generally the lead should only precis information that is given in full (and cited) in the main text, however in this case I do think the number could be cited.  I've been checking up on the infoboxes (those summaries to the right) and there is not an easy way to insert the listing status into the ship box, so I'd leave it alone ''pro tem''.  Give me a few minute, I'll hack the ''Mary Rose'' about a bit and then tell me what you think.  Regards, [[User:Martin of Sheffield|Martin of Sheffield]] ([[User talk:Martin of Sheffield|talk]]) 16:24, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
::::: Awesome! I've already added the list numbers to the wrecks on [[List of designations under the Protection of Wrecks Act|this]] page, I'm pleased with this! It'd be great to add them into the info box, but happy to put it in the lead too! Also, a number of wrecks have virtual trails, where do you think I should add that information? Thanks for your help! [[User:Phoebe MSDS|Phoebe MSDS]] ([[User talk:Phoebe MSDS#top|talk]]) 07:45, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
::::::I'd confine the trails to the body of the article.  The article is about the ship, the trail is incidental to the main purpose so shouldn't be in the lead.  Can you point me to an example please?  Thanks, [[User:Martin of Sheffield|Martin of Sheffield]] ([[User talk:Martin of Sheffield|talk]]) 08:52, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
::::::: That makes sense! This is the [https://www.cloudtour.tv/rooswijk/ Rooswijk Virtual Trail]. I've also added the NHLE link into the lead for the [[Cattewater Wreck]], and a couple others- does it look right? [[User:Phoebe MSDS|Phoebe MSDS]] ([[User talk:Phoebe MSDS#top|talk]]) 09:30, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

== A bowl of strawberries for you! ==

{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Erdbeerteller01.jpg|120px]]
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Hi I’ve just reviewed [[Hazardous (ship)]]. Thanks for creating this. Any further references you can find will be good, but if not, leave it to other editors to find some. Happy editing! [[User:Mccapra|Mccapra]] ([[User talk:Mccapra|talk]]) 23:19, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
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:: Thank you! I've added a new pages for a load of the protected wrecks in the UK, so their pages are a little sparse at the moment, I will try to beef it up a bit, but it'd be excellent for other users to contribute! [[User:Phoebe MSDS|Phoebe MSDS]] ([[User talk:Phoebe MSDS#top|talk]]) 08:00, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

== I have sent you a note about a page you started ==

Hello, Phoebe MSDS

Thank you for creating [[Chesil Beach cannon]].

[[User:Herpetogenesis]], while examining this page as a part of our [[WP:NPP|page curation process]], had the following comments:

{{Bq|1=Good work! Try adding a few more references and footnotes for verifiability.}}

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with {{code|<nowiki>{{Re|</nowiki>Herpetogenesis<nowiki>}}</nowiki>}}. Please remember to sign your reply with {{code|<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>}} .

<small>(Message delivered via the [[Wikipedia:Page Curation/Help|Page Curation]] tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)</small><!-- Template:Sentnote-NPF -->

[[User:Herpetogenesis|HᴇʀᴘᴇᴛᴏGᴇɴᴇꜱɪꜱ]] ([[User talk:Herpetogenesis|talk]]) 22:30, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
::{{Re|Herpetogenesis}} Thank you for your comment, I've been adding a few new pages for protected wrecks in English waters, I've been getting my info from the NHLE pages for the wrecks, which is the most up-to-date info! I will try to add a few more refs in where I can! [[User:Phoebe MSDS|Phoebe MSDS]] ([[User talk:Phoebe MSDS#top|talk]]) 08:03, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

== Comments on [[Rill Cove Wreck]] ==

Hallo Phoebe and welcome to editing. I saw [[Rill Cove Wreck]] while [[WP:WSS|Stub-sorting]] and it led me to your user talk page where I see you've had quite a lot of advice from experienced editors. I've done quite a bit to this article now. If I can just chip in a few points?
* It's a good idea to put something on your user page [[User:Phoebe MSDS]], introducing yourself if you care to (might be worth saying a bit about the project you're working on), but even just a full stop will then make your user name appear in blue (seen as an established editor) rather than red (usually a very new editor). It can affect the way other editors look at your edits, perhaps unconsciously.
*Have you made contact with the Shipwrecks Wikiproject? It might be useful to leave a message at [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Shipwrecks]] to introduce your project. They don't seem as developed as some other WikiProjects which have detailed "How to write an article about a xxx" guidelines, though I see that they aim for "Consistency in format for all shipwreck articles", but it might be worth contacting them.
*If you are re-using one reference within an article, you should give it a "name" and then refer to it by that name, so that it only crops up once in the list of references
*I don't think we need the whole NHLE stuff in the lead, though perhaps it is worth linking to the Act, as providing a definition of what a "Protected Wreck" is
*It's useful to use the template when linking to the NHLE info, because it future-proofs us against the NHLE re-designing their database, if we assume that the number will always be the key access point. The Charity Commission are at this moment messing up a lot of links to their site because they've redesigned their register, but at least we know that if we can work out how to edit the {{tl|EW charity}} template, all the hundreds of links will start to work again without being edited individually. So that's another argument in favour of using the template.
* I googled around and found a coin collecting site which talked about this wreck and gave it another name, so I've added that, bolded the name, and made a "Redirect" from it so that anyone searching or linking for [[Lizard Silver Wreck]] will get to the right place.
*Also found the desk based report, which is a nice thing to be able to offer our readers, so added it as an "External link"
*I noticed that [[Rill cove]] and [[Rill Cove]] existed as redirects to [[List of shipwrecks of Cornwall]]. I have retargeted them to point to this new article, and made a link from the list to your new article, but the same will need to be done for any other articles you're creating which are on that or similar lists.
*It's easy to add the co-ordinates - see the formula I used and slot in the values given in the NHLE listing - and the reader can then click on the link top right in the article to go directly to a choice of maps. Added value. (Once I'd added the coordinates I could see where it was, beyond "Cornwall" - the map in the NHLE listing doesn't help much as it's such a large scale that there aren't any placenames to be seen!)
* Punctuation goes before references, in Wikipedia's [[WP:MOS|Manual of Style]].
Sorry that's rather a lot of stuff all at once, but I hope you'll find some of it useful so that you can make even better articles on these interesting wrecks. Happy Editing! [[User:PamD|<span style="color: green">'''''Pam'''''</span>]][[User talk:PamD|<span style="color: brown">'''''D'''''</span>]] 17:48, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

:Hi {{Re|PamD}} thanks for your comments.

:I will add something to my page about the project, but I have finished what I set out to do now, which was ensure all the protected wrecks had a page, and ensure that they had links to their NHLE numbers.
:I was recommended by another user to include the NHLE number in the lead, so I used the NHLE template. Considering that the vast majority of information on these unknown wrecks comes from the NHLE page, I think it ought to be included in the lead. The NHLE database has been overhauled recently, these numbers will always link to these wrecks in the register.
:In some cases, the NHLE page does not give super accurate coordinates in order to protect the wreck, as illegal salvage is difficult to police. I will look to include the coordinates given by the NHLE in the pages I've created.
:I'll take on the rest of your comments, they are really helpful. While I was doing this, I had 20 articles to compile, so it was difficult to remember to do all these things, I can go back over what I've done and add new bits in and tidy them up! [[User:Phoebe MSDS|Phoebe MSDS]] ([[User talk:Phoebe MSDS#top|talk]]) 08:37, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

:*I really don't think it's appropriate to include the whole NHLE template in the lead paragraph, and I'm sure that the articles where you've used it will be edited to tidy this up. ({{ping|Martin of Sheffield}} Sorry to disagree with you on this). I've tweaked [[South Edinburgh Channel Wreck]] to tidy the references.
:* I also noticed that you don't state what country "Kent" is in: given that this is an international encyclopedia we always need to specify "England" etc. It's a common omission: I'm forever adding "United States" to articles written by Americans who think Wikipedia is an American encyclopedia (or that the USA = the world). It also seemed useful to add "Margate", as giving a better idea of location. 
:*I see the point about the NHLE and location... though in fact I trimmed a few decimals off the coords they gave for Rill Cove. They gave 8 points of decimals, while according to [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Geographical_coordinates#Precision_guidelines]] 0.0001 degrees is accurate down to less than a meter! I should have trimmed it even further ... 3 decimal points, which is precise to about 65-70m, seems best. Accurate enough for all sensible purposes, but discreetly imprecise. Done. [[User:PamD|<span style="color: green">'''''Pam'''''</span>]][[User talk:PamD|<span style="color: brown">'''''D'''''</span>]] 09:51, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

::Hi  {{Re|PamD}}  Fair enough! As an inexperienced user I will gladly defer to an expert! :) Understood RE the country issue, hadn't occured to me at all! Not all of the wrecks have imprecise locations, sometimes the given position is actually false, although I am not sure which wrecks this applies to! Thank you for commenting on the NHLE page on my behalf too!! [[User:Phoebe MSDS|Phoebe MSDS]] ([[User talk:Phoebe MSDS#top|talk]]) 15:14, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

==Article Help==

{{Help me-helped}}

I'd like to write a page for the company I work for, what are the rules on this? I understand that it can't be promotional in any way, and I will ensure it is referenced thoroughly. I will also provide a declaration of my association to the company on the talk page. What else do I need to do? Thanks! [[User:Phoebe MSDS|Phoebe MSDS]] ([[User talk:Phoebe MSDS#top|talk]]) 11:27, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
:You'll probably want to read through [[WP:PAID]], [[WP:PSCOI]], and [[WP:YFA]]. If you want more help,&nbsp;change the {{t|help me-helped}} back into a {{t|help me}}, stop by the [[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]], or Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|live help channel]], or the [[WP:Help desk|help desk]] to ask someone for assistance.&nbsp;[[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 12:44, 19 October 2020 (UTC)<!--Template:helpmessage-->

==Citing the National Heritage List for England==

Hi, when you use the {{tl|National Heritage List for England}} template you should normally enclose it between <code><nowiki><ref></nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki></ref></nowiki></code>, so that the citation appears in the references section, not in the main text. For example:
*<code><nowiki>The wreck is a Protected Wreck managed by [[Historic England]].<ref>{{NHLE|num=1000087}}</ref></nowiki></code>
I have fixed this in [[HMS Pomone (1805)]] and [[Iona II]], and I notice than another editor has fixed some others. More remain to be fixed, for example [[Loe Bar Wreck]]. Could you look back through the articles you have edited and fix any others? Thanks, [[User:Verbcatcher|Verbcatcher]] ([[User talk:Verbcatcher|talk]]) 01:04, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

:Hi, I will look into this! I spoke to other editors on the help chat before I added the NHLE numbers in and a few of them said to keep it in the lead part of the article which is why I did this. I am happy to put it in the refs, but I was originally going on what I'd been told by other users! Thanks for flagging! [[User:Phoebe MSDS|Phoebe MSDS]] ([[User talk:Phoebe MSDS#top|talk]]) 09:02, 6 November 2020 (UTC)