View source for User talk:StuRat/archive6

==People to ignore==

This person, on the Ref Desk, seems more interested in fighting and wasting my time than having a civil discussion, so I will ignore them:

 92.15.0.66
 92.15.6.232
 92.15.8.206
 92.15.18.16
 92.15.20.212
 92.15.24.116
 92.24.182.238
 92.24.190.23
 92.24.191.116
 92.28.254.54

== Welcome back ==

Hi StuRat.  I always look forward to reading your posts on the Ref Desk, with their trademark clarity and sanity, and even when I disagree with your arguments, they always give me plenty to think about, so whenever you go AWOL you leave a gaping hole.  Welcome back, and I hope you were enjoying whatever you were doing.   Cheers [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 14:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

:Thanks.  I wasn't actually away, just reduced my level of contributions as I'm in the process of moving.  Next month I should be back to "full time". [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 15:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

== Language ==

"RefDeskia". Hehe. I Like it. :) --[[User:Russoc4|Russoc4]] 17:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

:Thanks ! :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 17:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

== Nick ==

Hi StuRat, I'm just curious about your username. Does it mean anything? Are you aware that it is the (half-correctt, official is "StR") abbreviation for "Studienrat", the default job title and salary level for high school teachers in German state service? [[User:Sanders muc|Simon A.]] 07:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

:No, it's a variation on my name, Stuart.  My parents once received a letter from my school saying "We would like to congratulate your '''daughter Sturat''' on '''her''' excellent academic performance."  I thought it was so funny that I continue to use it as a screen name to this day.  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 18:16, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

::Are you a female!!! the name stuart doesnt sound feminine.[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]][[User_talk:Nidhishsinghal|(&#9794;)]] 18:22, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

:::No, I'm not, that's what made it so funny. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 18:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

::::So, your school staff is guilty for double error on the same letter.[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]][[User_talk:Nidhishsinghal|(&#9794;)]] 18:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

:::::Yes, they were apparently attempting to compensate for the academic excellence of the students with extreme administrative incompetence. :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 19:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

== Templates ==

Also, I wanted to talk about that templates.  This one is horribly inflammatory:

<div class="notice" style="background:#ffc; border:1px solid #AAA; padding:0.5em; margin:0.5em auto;"> [[Image:Stop_hand.svg|30px|left]] OK, it is time for your joking to end. You are potentially offending people, both here in the Wikipedia community and the wider readership. What you are doing could be seen as [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]] and you could get [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]] from editing Wikipedia for it. '''You might not get another warning before having a block imposed''', so be careful and be serious from now on. <!-- Template:Seriously (level 4 warning) --> </div>

This one is better, but still rather unpleasant:

<div align="center" class="notice" style="background:#CF9; border:1px solid #AAA; padding:0.5em; margin:0.5em auto;"> [[Image:Info-pictogram.png|left]]The jokes are getting old. Humor's great, but Wikipedia is a serious encyclopedia. It is time to straighten up and make serious contributions. <!-- Template:Funnybut (level 3 warning) --></div> 

Perhaps it could say something more like this, customized for the Ref Desk, Help Desk, and any other location where questions are asked and answered:

<div align="center" class="notice" style="background:#CF9; border:1px solid #AAA; padding:0.5em; margin:0.5em auto;"> [[Image:Info-pictogram.png|left]]Humor is much appreciated, but this question also deserves a serious answer, does anybody have one ? <!-- Template:Funnybut (level 3 warning) --></div> 

[[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 03:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

:It's one of a series of user warnings, for use on user talk pages not on article pages.  Your wording sounds like something for the RD.  Is the issue you don't want it on this page?   The point is to encourage a user to stop doing something.  I hope we're at the point of having a rational discussion.  I don't see any particular reason to keep it here. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 04:26, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

::Our edits seem to have crossed paths.  Templates like this are almost never used at the point of reference, but on the user talk page (at the point of reference generally the offending comment is simply removed).  The "forum" style pages (HD, RD, VP) are perhaps special, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to have these sorts of templates on the RD.  -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 04:26, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

:::I think the last one might be good to let everyone know the question remains unanswered.  When I see several pages of replies, I generally assume there's an answer in there somewhere, but this would let me know there wasn't, at least at the point where it's posted.  I think I'll propose it at the Ref Desk talk page and see who salutes. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 04:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

::Yes, ref desk talk page seems like a good idea. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 04:41, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

== A modest proposal ==

Hi StuRat - thanks for keeping the conversation alive on the RD - I think I'm going to call it a day, and I think I'm going to leave things as is. I've written all there is which needed to be said I think, and it's time for me to move on. There's a lot of good nuggets there, so hopefully some Wikipedians will pick up on what I've tried to get at. In the meantime, I cannot guarantee that I will be around the RD for a sustained period, but do keep an eye out for my edits there - I have a feeling that some normalcy can come back to the project soon. Cheers, [[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 20:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:Thanks for your help.  I am afraid that [[User:Friday]]'s tendency to do things in a unilateral way will return, however, without another Admin prodding him toward building a consensus with the rest of us.  May I call on you if he drifts back in that direction ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 20:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::I'm always around. :-) --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 20:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

== Chapeau ==

I tip my hat to your tireless efforts on continuing the discourse at [[Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk]]. I think the process has revealed some interesting points. I'm sorry my support was sporadic at best - apart from an overstuffed agenda, I also felt a bit lost and overpowered by the tremendous pace of evolving issues on multiple pages (and also admit to being rule-o-phobe). I decided not to comment on the RFCs on you and THB, because it doesn't seem necessary, but if someone else is going to support the poster's view I will change my mind, and also post a comment. I'm concerned (scratch that, I'm ''angry'') about these recent developments and, FWIW, will try to help you guys when I finally have some spare time next week. Meanwhile, keep up the stiff upper lip, and good luck! ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] 11:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

:Thanks for your support.  I agree on not commenting until the RFC's at least get a second.  This issue just appears to be an unwarranted distraction, IMHO. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 13:02, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

== Sorry, but I am leaving ==

StuRat - just to let you know that I'm am going to leave the RD guideline and RD talk page discussions. I just can't deal with Radiant and Hipocrite any more. Every time I interact with them I end up feeling disgusted and soiled. I am going to find some far corner of Wikpedia where the air is clean and the water is pure and I can leave their poison far behind. Sorry to see that Friday has endorsed your RfC, but I am sure it will just die from lack of further input. Keep up the good work, and thank you for all your help. [[User:Gandalf61|Gandalf61]] 21:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

:Please reconsider.  We need the voices of sane people to finish this process.  If you leave, you let the bullies win.  That doesn't just have implications for the Ref Desk, but for every corner of Wikipedia, even the dark corners.  Light's block ends soon, and DirkvdM still occasionally participates in the talk page discussions:

 "...and when they came for me, there was nobody left to protest." [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 21:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
<small>except me! (I hope)--[[User:Light current|Light current]] 03:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)</small>

As the old latin saying goes: ''Nil desperandum carborundum''. loosely translated as: '''Dont let the bastards grind you down!''' 8-)--[[User:Light current|Light current]] 03:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

==Chain letters==

You wrote: "''For that matter, how about chain letters, especially the online variety, which can grow and mutate and reproduce, with the more successful mutations surviving and the less successful dying out.  So, are they alive ?  (Sure, they need people to survive, but don't many living parasites also need hosts ?)''" [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 22:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

:This is a good example, has reproduction, mutations and natural selection. [[User:David D.|David D.]] [[User talk:David D.|(Talk)]] 06:29, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 07:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

== Dozens? ==

The notion that a hunter would kill dozens of birds with a single shot seems outlandish to me.  Do you have a reference for this?  [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User talk:Friday|(talk)]] 19:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

:Oh geez, so it starts again.  It’s not outlandish at all.  Each shotgun contains many pellets, see illustration of a target hit by one: [http://www.animalliberation.org.au/backgrou.php].  With the birds packed into such a dense cloud, each pellet was likely to hit and each kill or incapacitate at least one bird.  If you count the number of pellet holes, you will see there are dozens. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 20:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

:::A comment from an [[Editing|editor]] who writes with [[ELF|English as a lingua franca]] in mind (i.e. for the benefit of non-native speakers among your readers): I didn't see the original post, but just based on the above, I'd recommend avoiding any ambiguity inherent in the wording ''single shot'' (focused on the action of firing the weapon?) by substituting ''single blast'' (to indicate a possible indeterminate number of multiple projectiles having been fired in that act). Just an idea. ''-- [[User:Deborahjay|Deborahjay]] 05:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)''

::::Good point, Friday should have said "a single blast". [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 12:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

::Sure, I'm familiar with shotguns.  Depending on shot size, there may be anywhere from less than 10, to several hundred pellets.  Very small ones won't generally kill a target individually- typically the target is hit by many pellets.  The shot pattern will spread out over a distance, and the individual pellets will lose their effectiveness as velocity decreases (which is does quite rapidly with such a small projectile.) Do you have a source that mentions anyone downing dozens of pigeons with a single shot?  [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User talk:Friday|(talk)]] 21:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

:::It was from a TV show on [[PBS]] many years ago, and I have no idea what the name of it was.  At moderate range the pellets are spread out far enough to hit dozens of birds (provided the birds are there) and still have enough force to kill or incapacitate the birds.  Those which were incapacitated fell to the ground and were finished off by the hunters or their dogs. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 21:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

::::Eh, I suppose it's a small issue- it's not like you're putting this assertion into an article.  But, please do rememember that the ref desk isn't very well served by us basing what we say from our recollections of things we saw on TV many years ago.  It's very easy to misremember such stuff.  [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User talk:Friday|(talk)]] 21:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::No, it isn't, I don't know about your mind, but my mind doesn't just make up things like that.  The Ref Desk also isn't well served by challenging everything you possibly can, when you have absolutely no evidence that anything is wrong.  This is especially true if you hold a grudge against people and use those challenges as a way to "get back at people". [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 21:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

::::::I have no grudge and no opinion whatsoever about you as a person.  I do remember that you've put in inaccurate information before, and people have pointed this out to you.  You're still doing it, so I'm telling you again.  The ref desks aren't chat boards or panel discussions.  [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User talk:Friday|(talk)]] 22:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::::And where am I giving inaccurate info, exactly ?  If you're going to make claims like that, I'd like to see some evidence. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 22:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, as I said, I don't buy your assertion that hunters would kill dozens of pigeons with a single shot.  Neither your first nor your second explanation for where you got this were convincing to me.  But I suppose this doesn't matter much- now we're essentially looking at your opinion versus mine, neither of which are reliable sources.  I can't even say such a scenario is ''impossible'', just that it sounds quite unlikely to me, and is far from a typical hunting result.  [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User talk:Friday|(talk)]] 22:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

:That's because birds don't typically form a cloud of a million, giving hunters a target they can't miss.  In the future, please don't challenge my statements unless you have some actual proof that they are wrong.  And don't accuse me of giving inaccurate info unless you have proof, either. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 02:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

::As has been pointed out to you many many times before, your standard of "you must prove me wrong" is unreasonable.  If you're going to make unlikely claims, please have references to back it up.  [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User talk:Friday|(talk)]] 02:52, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

::::The problem is your claim that my statements are "unlikely".  You just arbitrarily decide that the claims of people you don't like are "unlikely" and put the burden of proof on them, when you have absolutely no basis for doubting the statement.  And I'm sure your fellow deletionist agree that anything lacking a reference can be deleted arbitrarily (but then again, they think anything can be deleted arbitrarily, reference or not).  That doesn't make it right or mean the majority of people agree. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 15:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

:::The claims of 50 are citable, for example, [http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=603 see this discussion], so StuRats memory is probably correct.  The problem is whether such claims are legitimate. Hunters, [http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42411000/jpg/_42411895_russell_pa416gall.jpg notoriously fishermen], embellish their accounts into ripping yarns. [[User:David D.|David D.]] [[User talk:David D.|(Talk)]] 03:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

::::Since 24 would constitute "dozens", even if the claim of 50 was twice the reality, I would still be correct. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 15:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

::::::Unless you're a baker! [[User:David D.|David D.]] [[User talk:David D.|(Talk)]] 17:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Hmm, I don't particularly like rising, but I do like to loaf around. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 17:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

::::::::StuRat the last thing we need is another bun thread. [[User:David D.|David D.]] [[User talk:David D.|(Talk)]] 17:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::Wow.  I'm surprised enough that such a thing would be reported, whether or not it's really true.  I may have my doubts, but if people are claiming that, they're claiming it.  StuRat, sorry for being so skeptical about this.  [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User talk:Friday|(talk)]] 15:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

::::::Thanks for admitting your error.  This could all have been avoided, however, had you done some research before challenging my statement.  I wish you would learn from this mistake. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 15:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

== "The greater good" sounds familiar... ==

Re: your initial response to [[WP:RD/H#March 10|my query]] on ''"Sanctity of Life" in relation to Warfare'' – I'm clarifying the topic as it more narrowly pertains to the [[Selective Service|individual draftee]] with a [[Humanism|humanistic]] belief system faced with joining a [[Warfare|combat]] unit rather than seeking a desk job or even [[conscientious objection]]. So I'm replying here rather than risking a diversion of the discussion there; to note: I recall the "greater good" argument (though unfortunately not much else!) from my high school history lessons back in the mid/late [[1980s]] [[USA]] as a (the?) rationale for dropping the [[atomic bomb]] on [[Hiroshima]] and [[Nagasaki]] in order to hasten the end of [[WWII]]. Did I get that right, do you suppose? ''-- [[User:Deborahjay|Deborahjay]] 05:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)''

:Yes, that's right.  The argument is that Japan would not have been willing to give an unconditional surrender otherwise.  This would leave the US with the following options:

:1) Accept a conditional surrender, which would have left the militaristic, imperial power structure in Japan, which likely would have resulted in another war with Japan, with nuclear weapons, a few years later, in which case millions would have died.

:2) Continue conventional bombing, with the goals of destroying Japan's military, industrial, and agricultural production, resulting in the deaths from bombing and starvation of millions (almost all Japanese).

:3) Perform a land invasion of Japan, which would have resulted in the deaths of millions of Japanese and hundreds of thousands of allies.  Japanese school children were being taught to charge soldiers with sharpened sticks.

:The US was in no mood to accept a conditional surrender.  There was a contingency plan, however, in case the atomic bomb was not available by the time it was needed, which was a combo of options 2 and 3.  Another concern was that the Soviet Union, which waited until Japan was weakened to declare war on Japan, would invade and conquer large portions of Japan, and then set it up as a communist state.  As it is, they only managed to conquer a few northern islands.

:So, to avoid using the atomic bomb would have likely resulted in more deaths.  I do think their should have been Japanese POW observers present at the [[Trinity test]], however, who then could have been returned to Japan to report on this new weapon.  While I don't think this would bring about an immediate unconditional surrender, perhaps it would be enough to get the Japanese to give an unconditional surrender after [[Hiroshima]], without the need for the second atomic bonb being dropped on [[Nagasaki]].   [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 12:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

== Regarding our exchanges above ==

Hello StuRat. After a short Wikibreak, and some time to reflect, I wish to apologise for the uncivil tone of some of my comments on this page and at the Ref Desk. I still ''strongly'' disagree with your interpretation of Ref Desk policy, culture and purpose, but there is no excuse for personalising a disagreement. Moreover, I realise my annoyance helped antagonise the dispute, rather than resolve it. I think this is a sign that it is time to take a complete break from the Ref Desk for a period, which I intend to do, though I expect I may choose to return at some point in the future. Happy editing. [[User:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">Rockpock</span>]]<span style="color:black;">e</span>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">t</span>]] 07:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

:Thanks for that.  While I still completely reject arguments for authority and [[ad hominem]] attacks, believing that everyone should be allowed to present their arguments, with the readers deciding which is strongest (based on the relative strength of each argument and any supporting evidence), I admit that when someone is uncivil to me I find it difficult to remain civil to them, and I apologize for that. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 13:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/StuRat 2]] ==

I would invite you to read through this again.  Your statement that [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk&diff=prev&oldid=120133370 there's no consensus you've done anything wrong] is rather surprising, given the kinds of comments on that RFC.  You may also pay attention to the few who certified your response- 3 editors besides you, including two who've been blocked many times for disruption.  Do this tell you anything?  [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User talk:Friday|(talk)]] 14:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

:You are, of course, neglecting all the users who endorsed outside views favorable to my position, such as the 10 who endorsed "Outside view by [[User:Amarkov]]". [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 15:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

::You mean the one I endorsed?  I didn't miss that one.  If you read carefully you may find that it deals with part of the issue, and not other parts.  [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User talk:Friday|(talk)]] 15:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

:::That's the one (must have been one of your more reasonable moments).  The statements "The word 'deletionist', by itself, is not incivil", "And I do not see any evidence that StuRat is using it as a particularly derogatory term" seem quite favorable to my continued use of the term.  If you think that position reflects a consensus that I should stop using the term, you are seriously mistaken. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 15:12, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

==[[Wikipedia:Responding to suicidal individuals]]==

Hi StuRat. I would like to invite you to commenting upon or edit the new proposed policy [[Wikipedia:Responding to suicidal individuals]] now that it has finally come up for discussion on [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)]] and [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Policies]]. Hopefully we can reach consensus (or not) within a week or two. Thanks! [[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] 23:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

:I've commented, but it looks like they are more interested in avoiding legal liability than saving suicidal individuals. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 16:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

----

== Hiya Stu ==

Thanks for your comment on my talk page. I responded there, but also wanted to add a note here that I agree with your actions on the matter in question, which promoted a fair outcome, despite reasonbly-held differences in opinion on side matters. Regards. [[User:Dreftymac|dr.ef.tymac]] 00:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

:OK, thanks.  I had seen your comments on your talk page and decided it was best not to respond. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 00:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

== Don't worry, Clio will be back ==

This is just some drama to get everyone to tell her how much they love her and want her back. I'm sure she'll be back as soon as she's gotten enough attention (although it might very well be under a new screen name/sockpuppet). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 04:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

- Since my comment is continually deleted from Clio's page, I will place it here. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 05:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

:...and she is now back, just as predicted.  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 06:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

===I'm really disappointed in you for this subthread===

I'm at an utter loss to understand why you're still persisting in this namecalling and scorn towards Clio.  It's petty, childish, disruptive, and really, really disgusting. —[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 01:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

:My question is... is it allowed to remove comments you dislike from a discussion page? That's what I truly find... well, not elegant. I thought doing so was considered as vandalism. --[[User:Taraborn|Taraborn]] 22:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

::I think that, currently, albeit not elegant, everyone has the right to remove stuff from their talk page, and do whatever they want with it. 

::However, I think there should exist pages to talk about the user that don't belong to the user, as article talk pages. [[User:A.Z.|A.Z.]] 22:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

::Unlike article pages, general talk page material should not be removed unless it violates some policy (like personal attacks).  You can "refactor" comments, though, like moving them to a new section that's more appropriate, or archiving them when old.  Just removing comments because you disagree is a definite no-no, however.  User talk pages are a bit different, though.  There the user has ownership and can remove anything they like, while others should probably restrict themselves to removing their own comments before they have a response. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 10:39, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

== Aren't you tired yet? ==

I know I am. It's almost 3 AM here. [[User:A.Z.|'''A.Z.''']] 05:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

:Only 2 AM here ! [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 05:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

::So plenty of time till the Sun comes along! I for one am going to sleep. I have got to work tomorrow. Good night. [[User:A.Z.|'''A.Z.''']] 05:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

:::Good night. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 06:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

==Jews==

Thanks for your common sense.  For me personally, this comment wasn't deleted because I thought it was wrong though. I still think it is right - it was removed because it wasn't worth fighting offence.[[User Talk:martianlostinspace|martianlostinspace]] 10:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

:I believe you lined it out, as opposed to deleting it.  This is what I recommend if you no longer believe a statement of yours to be correct.  The existence of races is a very touchy issue.  While it is true that there is considerable genetic overlap between races, or, to be more scientific, "gene pools", there are still genes which are far more common in certain gene pools than others.  For example, the gene for [[Tay Sachs disease]] is more common in Eastern European Jews than in the general world population.  I personally have no idea about "head size" genes, however. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 20:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

== Your comment at the Ref Desk talk page ==

I responded to a good point you made. --[[User:Dweller|Dweller]] 13:24, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

:Thanks, I'll take a look now. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 03:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

== I'm sorry :( ==

I must admit to being a dirty little vandal, I altered the desert question on the science desk so that everyone said dessert. i'm still giggling though. [[User:213.48.15.234|213.48.15.234]] 13:21, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

:No harm done, and it was worth a few laughs, too. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 02:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

== You and Friday ==

I'm being somewhat gossip here but I'm just very curious... I see you and [[User:Friday]] arguing (or discussing) many, many times, for example in the Reference desk guidelines. Why is that? Sorry for meddling. --[[User:Taraborn|Taraborn]] 21:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

:The Ref Desk is where people ask questions and get answers from volunteers like me.  [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/guidelines]] is where the rules for answering those questions are written down.  Inclusionists, like me, welcome a wide variety of questions and answers.  Others, like Friday, are apt to delete any question or answer they don't think "is encyclopedic". [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 15:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

::I'm being gossip too, but I believe Friday has once expressed the opinion that the reference desk would be better off if it were deleted. [[User:A.Z.|A.Z.]] 19:54, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

== Please stop feeding the trolls, or at least one particular troll ==

Dunno if you noticed, but Light current has been up to his juvenile behavior again.  I think your [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous&diff=prev&oldid=135277649 clever remarks] in response to his trolling only encourage him.  Would you mind taking ''particular'' care not to feed the trolls, when the troll is him?  Or, if you actually know this kid, would you mind having a word with him?  There are plenty of web sites where they encourage people to act like 12-year-olds, but Wikipedia isn't really meant to be one of them.  [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User talk:Friday|(talk)]] 16:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

== Colour Inkjet Refill ==

Hello. When I refill an HP 28 Colour Cartridge that is low on ink as indicated to me on my computer, I can only refill about 1 mL of each of the three colours (magenta, cyan, and yellow). The cartridge says it can hold up to 8 mL. Why can't I refill 8 mL of each colour? Thanks. --Mayfare 23:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

:Just speculation, but, if it's an airtight container and you are using a needle to inject new ink, you will need to draw air out to allow room for the new ink. StuRat 01:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC) 

Thanks for your speculation, StuRat. However, I am not sure if my colour ink cartridge is airtight. I went on HP's website and couldn't find any information on it. I even tried searching on Google. No luck there. Does anybody know if an HP 28 Colour Cartridge airtight? --Mayfare 02:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

:Why not do an experiment and use the needle to draw some air out first, and see if that doesn't allow you to inject more ink ? StuRat 02:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC) 

I experimented. Drawing out colour ink does not allow me to inject more colour ink. Why can't I refill 8 mL of each colour. --[[User:Mayfare|Mayfare]] 00:45, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

:Actually, I was suggesting you draw out air to make room for the new ink.  Drawing out old ink to make room for new ink is rather self defeating.  Also, if there is still ink in the cartridges, perhaps that isn't the problem.  For example, printer cartridges not used for a while can get a dried out plug in the ink delivery system. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 05:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, my bad. I meant to say that I tried to draw out air but I drew out colour ink instead. --[[User:Mayfare|Mayfare]] 22:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

== Useful article to be deleted ==

Perhaps you want to vote [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_common_phrases_in_various_languages|here]].  [[User:A.Z.|A.Z.]] 17:48, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

:Thanks for letting me know, I've added my comments there. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]]

== Speedy tagged Image ==

There is no source information on the [[:Image:Beachsub.jpg|image page]], so it does not follow the [[WP:IUP|image use policy]] and meets criterion I4 of the [[WP:CSD|criteria for speedy deletion]].  In a nutshell, the image use policy requires that the copyright status of images is verifiable.  Without source information, it's impossible to do so.  For example, the image could have been an artist's impression of the event, drawn on its centenary.

If you know where it came from, please could you fill in the following template and add it to the image page.

 <nowiki>
{{Information
| Description = 
|      Source = 
|        Date = 
|    Location = 
|      Author = 
|  Permission = 
}}</nowiki>

Let me know if you need further clarification of the policy.  Thanks - [[User:Alex valavanis|Papa November 1]] 23:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

:Some googling found the source.  I've added it to the image page, restored it to the article and removed the speedy tag.  [[User:Alex valavanis|Papa November 1]] 10:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

== Election for the Board of Trustees ==

Are you going to vote? You can see the candidates [[m:Board_elections/2007/Candidates|here]] and you can endorse them [[m:Board_elections/2007/Endorsements|here]]. [[User:A.Z.|A.Z.]] 23:16, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

:It looks like the endorsement period is closed.  I would have endorsed [[User:Kingboyk]] for his commitment to democratic means (versus the current group of despots we have as Admins) and [[User:^demon]] for his commitment to re-allow contributions through anonymous proxy servers.  (Users who wish to contribute anonymously should be allowed to do so.) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 00:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

::You can still vote for them. Both have got enough endorsements, unlike the candidate that I have endorsed, [[User:Jouster|Jouster]], for the reasons expressed on his user page. [[User:A.Z.|A.Z.]] 03:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

:::Where do I go to vote ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 03:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

::::I don't know, but I guess the page hasn't been created yet or there is no link to it. According to this [[meta:Board_elections/2007/en#Timeline|timeline]], voting starts next thursday. [[User:A.Z.|A.Z.]] 03:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

:::::I voted, but I don't think the results are in yet. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 23:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::It seems that they'll announce the results tomorrow. [[User:A.Z.|A.Z.]] 21:40, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

== "Discussion" to "talk" ==

Hi, StuRat. Do you want to participate in [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29#Talk_Pages|this discussion]]? [[User:A.Z.|A.Z.]] 23:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:Thanks, I voted in favor of this change to the tab labels. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 23:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

== Integrin ==

You're a member of WikiProject General Audience. I think that project is not working right now, but it's a great idea and a needed project. I think I may join it. 

There's a discussion on the [[Integrin]] article talk page in which I'm defending that the article be more accessible to general audience. Participate, if you wish! [[User:A.Z.|A.Z.]] 03:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

:Thanks, I'll take a look. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 07:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

== Administrators and the stanford prison experiment ==

I'm looking for a diff by yours where you compared administrator corruption to what happened to students during the [[stanford prison experiment]]. Do you happen to know where is that diff? [[User:A.Z.|A.Z.]] 23:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

:It was the 6th comment in this thread: [[User_talk:StuRat/archive4#Imagine.21_redux]]. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 04:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks. I agree with the comparison, and I am referring to that diff in an essay I'm writing (linked from my user page, and that is supposed to be my definitive essay about giving sysop tools to everyone).

::I bought a book by the leader of the Stanford prison experiment, called ''The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil''. I read some parts of the book, but I see it will be somewhat disturbing to read it entirely. I can see Wikipedia all over it. In fact, I was just reading the article about the [[Stanford prison experiment]] today, and I realized you can easily substitute ''guards'' for ''administrators'' and ''prisoners'' for ''editors''. [[User:A.Z.|A.Z.]] 05:25, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

:::For a more ominous comparison, there are Nazi war criminals.  There were many people who behaved in a perfectly decent manner both before and after the war, but who calmly assisted in genocide during the war.  Clearly, when somebody in authority tells people "it's OK to kill those subhumans", a lot of people go along willingly, even cheerfully.  I wouldn't use this is your essay, however, as people tend to immediately ignore any comparison with Nazis as [[Godwin's Law]].  Personally, I think we have much to learn from that period, to ensure that it never happens again. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 16:34, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

::::Interesting. That book does talk about the nazis as well. StuRat, I would like that you read my [[User:A.Z./Administrators|essay]] and perhaps comment about it. I decided already which system for giving admin tools I support. It is simple and it doesn't require structural changes. The RfA reform page will probably move on now because an user decided to put an end to it with a vote. [[User:A.Z.|A.Z.]] 05:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::OK, I added my comments. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 17:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

== [[Matrixism]] ==

I see no evidence that this page is protected.  A redirect should be doable.  [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User talk:Friday|(talk)]] 17:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:Maybe it's not for Admins, but if I try to edit it I get dumped onto a page that says "This page has been protected to prevent creation." [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 17:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Some nonstandard method of protection perhaps?  Weird.. Does it say anything that might give a clue how it's protected? [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User talk:Friday|(talk)]] 17:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::: Its this new way of salting pages. You transclude the article in [[Wikipedia:Protected titles]], which is itself protected with the "cascading" option enabled). It took me a while to work out how this worked too. Good of them the lets the troops know eh? [[User:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">Rockpock</span>]]<span style="color:black;">e</span>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">t</span>]] 17:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::::"Salting" ?  As in "plow the ground with salt so nothing can ever grow there again" as the Romans did in Carthage ?  Now that we know how it's done, can either of you undo it so I can do as the AFD discussion concluded (move and redirect to [[The Matrix]]). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 17:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::::: [[WP:SALT]]. Are you planning to merge the info into [[The Matrix]] or just redirect to the article as is?  [[User:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">Rockpock</span>]]<span style="color:black;">e</span>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">t</span>]] 17:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::::::Merge and redirect, as was the conclusion of the AFD discussion.  I would create a new section named "Matrixism as a real religion" and copy the content there from the user page where it currently resides. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 17:46, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::::::: Sorry, StuRat, but a more recent DRV, see [[Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 March 19]], endorsed the deletion. I'm not about to over-rule that considering how much administrative activity there has been on this article in the past. Here is what I will do, though. If you choose to add the Matrixism material to the Matrix article and it is accepted there for a week or two without significant challenge, then I will unsalt and redirect to there. However, if the material is sufficiently non-notable and unverified as to not sruvive as an article, it is likely that will also be the case as a subsection of the Matrix. [[User:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">Rockpock</span>]]<span style="color:black;">e</span>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">t</span>]] 18:20, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: I don't see how the conclusion of the first ~vote can just be ignored because there was a later discussion.  Do those opinions not matter any more ?  Also, I think often people say "delete" as a lazy way of saying "get rid of that article, but I don't care what happens to the content".  It's something like when people don't have car blinkers on, does that mean they aren't making a turn or that they are just too lazy to put on the blinker ?  I think people should have to explicitly say "destroy the content and don't ever let it be placed anywhere in Wikipedia", if that's what they really mean.  As for cars, a "going straight" signal might help there.  I've added the content to [[The Matrix (series)]]. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 19:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::::::::: By your own argument, why should a later discussion be ignored because there is a former? Besides, I'm not "ignoring" the first Afd, but there is no point unsalting if there is no consensus for the material to be kept anywhere in Wikipedia. The material looks fine to me in its current place. If there is no major objections to its notability and verifiability by this time next week, I will unsalt and redirect Matrixism to that article. [[User:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">Rockpock</span>]]<span style="color:black;">e</span>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">t</span>]] 19:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::: OK. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 19:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::: Great. And on the off-chance I forget, do remind me of this next week. [[User:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">Rockpock</span>]]<span style="color:black;">e</span>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">t</span>]] 19:53, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::::: Done. [[User:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">Rockpock</span>]]<span style="color:black;">e</span>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">t</span>]] 18:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::::::Thanks, I've now changed the [[Matrixism]] redirect to point to the specific section. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 18:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::::::: Then you should probably leave a hidden note by the section heading noting that per [[WP:REDIRECT]], otherwise someone may change the wording of the heading and the redirect would be lost. [[User:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">Rockpock</span>]]<span style="color:black;">e</span>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">t</span>]] 18:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::Good idea, and I've now done so, but the redirect wouldn't be totally lost if the section title was changed.  In that case, the redirect just reverts to the top of the article. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 20:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

==Matrixism (2)==
Hi,

Be a little more careful there -- that's just the first of several AfDs on the topic.  The content was userfied to me as part of a DRV compromise six months ago.  I'm not sure yet whether I'll revert your merge, but be aware that a redirect from my userspace to the article is forbidden, per CSD R2.  I'll probably just restore the userpage as it was.  Good effort, but you should probably check with someone before doing that, rather than after.  Best wishes, [[User:Xoloz|Xoloz]] 22:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

::I did, we had a Ref Desk discussion which was then continued up above on this page.  Admin [[User:Rockpocket]] agreed to "unsalt" the locked page so I could add the redirect after the content went unchallenged for a week. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 22:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

:Never mind... I see now what you've done.  I like the merge, but how did you preserve the attribution history, because my userpage is still as it was? [[User:Xoloz|Xoloz]] 22:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

::I didn't preserve the attribution history.  If you know of a way to do so, please, by all means, be my guest. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 22:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

::Fixed. :)  You'll notice this has changed the history of the redirect -- the people who wrote the content that you merged now receive credit in that history.  I realize this situation was complicated, but remember that bigger merges require the merging of the article history as well, which needs the use of admin tools.  The GFDL demands that the attribution history be retained.  Best wishes, [[User:Xoloz|Xoloz]] 22:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

== Medical advice on the Ref Desk ==

StuRat, please try to avoid offering [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/guidelines/Medical advice|medical advice]] on the Reference Desks as you did in [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science#Numbness in foot|this thread]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science&diff=155330958&oldid=155329638].  It's one of those things that Just Isn't Done around here.  While I appreciate that you're just trying to help, giving a questioner a list of diagnoses for his symptoms isn't appropriate.  Even offering opinions as to whether or not a condition is serious or dangerous isn't a good idea; giving the impression that we'll always tell people if their symptoms are serious may lead questioners to (inappropriately) rely on those evaluations.

Your cooperation in the future is appreciated, and your continued contributions to the Reference Desks are welcomed. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 16:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

:I would add that the rule is as much there to protect you as it is to protect Wikipedia.  Practicing medicine without a license is illegal in almost every country in the world.  If someone comes to harm because of your advice - then aside from moral and ethical issues, you could easily end up bankrupt and in jail - and it's just not worth the risk.  Sneaky tricks like offering links to pages you also wrote outside of Wikipedia is not going to help you there.  I'm not going to let this rest here.  If you won't obey the spirit of the community rules - we'll have to change the wording of the rule so it's not allowed.  Wikiversity should also disallow the offering of medical and legal advice and if we can't settle this amicably - I'll have to start campaigning for similar rules there.  But it would be much, MUCH better for the community if you'd please just stick to the spirit of the guidelines.   As it is, if you keep this up you'll be continually upsetting about 80% of your friends here at the help desk - and causing a rift in the community for the other 20%.  Please - don't do this. [[User:SteveBaker|SteveBaker]] 01:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

::Stu: I have this terrible pain whenever I twist my arm around this way. What should I do? [[User:Edison|Edison]] 16:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

:::I get a similar pain whenever I try to have a civil, logical conversation with many of the Admins here, although the pain isn't in my arm. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 18:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

== Seriously? ==

[http://en.wikiversity.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SB_Johnny&diff=156438&oldid=156055 "There are some serious nutjobs there, like Clio, who seem to be not only allowed, but actually encouraged, to viciously attack others by the Admins there (they block or ban anyone who criticizes her). I'd sure hate to see that lot migrate over here."]. Seriously? I've seen all sorts of people criticize Clio, none of them got blocked. I've criticized her myself, without getting blocked. Do you think [[user:Loomis51|Loomis]] got indefinitely blocked for ''criticizing'' Clio? Do you think the 12 hour block you received [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:StuRat here] was for criticizing Clio? Or which blocks and bans were you talking about? Also, who are the other serious nutjobs? ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 00:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

:Yes, I am serious.  Clio has said the same and worse (like her rant today on the people at Wikiversity which she calls "the realm of the stupid, the second-rate, the vicious and the petty-minded"), but rarely even gets chastised by an Admin, much less blocked, while anyone who aimed such comments at her gets chastised immediately and blocked or banned eventually.  I don't want to discuss the "other serious nutjobs" here, but applying the strictest possible interpretation of Wikipedia policies (many of which clearly aren't applicable at all to the Ref Desk, but are meant for articles only), as well as making up absurd arguments such as us being arrested for practicing medicine without a license or being guilty of posting SPAM for providing a link to a sister project, might give you some clues as to what I'm talking about.  The prevalence of such completely illogical arguments shakes my faith in Wikipedia.  I have long ago lost faith in the "Admins for life" concept. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 01:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

:: Hi StuRat. I missed Clio's little dig at you at the time, just noticing it now. I have reminded her of [[WP:NPA]]. Likewise, you should [[WP:ATTACK#Off-wiki_personal_attacks|be aware]] that "posting personal attacks or defamation off-Wikipedia is harmful to the community and to an editor's relationship with it... Such attacks can be regarded as aggravating factors by administrators". If you are going to complain about the attacks of others, calling them a "nutjob" from the saftey of another site is unlikely to garner much sympathy for you. As i said, just a friendly notice... [[User:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">Rockpock</span>]]<span style="color:black;">e</span>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">t</span>]] 02:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

:::First, that policy only applies to sites "not under the control of the Wikimedia Foundation", not Wikiversity.  Second, I've not provided any links to attacks, although you and others have (does that make you in violation of the policy ?).  Finally, your "reminder" to Clio couldn't have possibly been worded any softer, along with the "please feel free to remove this" language.  Why can't you, or any other Admin, ever be firm with her, and say something like "this language will not be tolerated" ?  You have absolutely no problem saying that to others when they behave as she does.  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 19:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

:::Also, why doesn't the "you have no right to complain because you do it too" logic ever apply to Clio ?  More favoritism at work ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 19:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

:::: Firstly that part that is under dispute is the 3RR on removing attack links. Secondly, that quote does not explicitly relate to links, the following subsection is about external links. The part I quoted speaks for itself: "posting personal attacks or defamation off-Wikipedia is harmful to the community." The fact that you appear to acknowledge you made a personal attack, and instead choose to wikilawyer over whether policy ''explicitly'' forbids it speaks volumes. How about you just stop doing it? Namecalling has no place on any wiki-project, that applies to you and Clio. She is aware of that, now you are too.
:::: Finally, I find that Clio is more responsive to friendly notices. Unlike certain other editors, she does not strive to wikilawyer around every warning and play games with semantics. She either accepts it or disputes it, I don't care which, as long as she doesn't continue doing it. You, on the other hand, appear to do anything you can to bend the rules to suit your purposes, even to the extent of jumping ship and making attacks from the apparent safety of Wikiversity. If that continues I will consider it "an aggravating factor". Oh, and just in case you were not aware. Please feel free to remove this notice from you page if you desire. [[User:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">Rockpock</span>]]<span style="color:black;">e</span>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">t</span>]] 20:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

:::::1) You seem to have responded too quickly.  I figured out which section you had linked to and revised my comments accordingly, but you responded to the old comments.  Please reread my current comments and respond accordingly.

:::::2) She may apologize or not (she never has apologized to me), but in either case she does continue with the insults.  I expect to see a continuing chain of insults from her here, with no action taken against her (in fact, the continuing chain of insults is ''because'' no firm action is ever taken against her).  She has now moved to placing insults on Wikiversity, as well (she just said she "despises" me and "pities" Lewis). 

:::::3) You don't seem to have answered why the "you have no right to complain because you do it too" logic doesn't ever apply to Clio. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 04:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

== Matrixism Deleted by Rogue Administrator ==

The Matrixism re-direct and section on Matrixism in The Matrix (series) were summarily deleted by User:Philwelch. They have been restored (temporarily?) by User:Neil but I imagine this is not the end and you might want to chime in on the subject. Philwelch's administrator status is apparently under arbitration for various violations you might want to have a say there also. [[User:207.69.139.144|207.69.139.144]] 15:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

:Thanks, do you have any links to where his status is being discussed ?  Also, did you just forget to log in or do you prefer to remain anonymous ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 17:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


::Please note that the proper spelling is "rouge." [[User:Edison|Edison]] ([[User talk:Edison|talk]]) 05:25, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

:::If I ever incorrectly spell "rogue" as "rouge", you will be able to tell from my apparent [[Rouge (cosmetics)|blushing]] as well as the [[rogue elephant|stampede]] of people telling me I messed up. :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:48, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

== [[Isochoric process]] now available to normal people ==

Hi, StuRat. I would like to know your opinions on my [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Isochoric_process&diff=159968452&oldid=156934352 changes] to this article. I believe I have improved it. I think it was an instance of experts keeping it from being readable to normal people. You may reply on the article talk  page, if you wish. [[User:A.Z.|A.Z.]] 08:00, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

:Ok, I made some changes and comments (basically, I feel it's important to have material for '''both''' the general and technical audiences). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 14:44, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

::I see your point. I thought your changes were an improvement. [[User:A.Z.|A.Z.]] 02:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

:::Thanks, and let me know if any other articles need a review for a general audience. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 02:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

== Simple Math Question -- Need Help -- Leap Years (?) ==

To: [[User talk:StuRat]] and [[User talk:Lomn]] 

From: [[User talk:Joseph A. Spadaro]]

Re: [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Mathematics#Simple Math Question -- Need Help -- Leap Years (?)]]

Can someone please help me with this simple math calculation?  It can't understand it and it's driving me crazy.  Any insight is appreciated.  Thanks.

* Person A is born on 12/18/1946 and dies on 03/21/1994
* Person B is born on 12/18/1904 and dies on 03/20/1952

===Method One===

According to Microsoft Excel: A lived 17,260 days and B lived 17,259 days.

That seems to make "sense" since ... ''although in different calendar years'' ... they were both born on the same "day" (December 18) but Person A lived an extra day in March (dying on March 21 instead of March 20) while Person B did not live for that extra day in March (dying on March 20 instead of March 21).  So, it makes sense that the March 21 decedent (Person A) has lived one extra day more than the March 20 decedent (Person B) ... that is, Person A lived 17,260 days which is one day more than Person B who lived 17,259 days.

So, the only thing that is truly "different" between Person A and B is ... the ''actual calendar years'' that they lived through ... and thus "how many leap years / leap days did each person live through." (I think?)

Person A has lived through 12 leap days: in 1948, 1952, 1956, 1960, 1964, 1968, 1972, 1976, 1980, 1984, 1988, and 1992.

Person B has lived through 12 leap days: in 1908, 1912, 1916, 1920, 1924, 1928, 1932, 1936, 1940, 1944, 1948, and 1952.

Using Method One (above), Person A lived one extra day more than Person B.

===Method Two===

Person A: From December 18, 1946 to December 18, 1993 is exactly 47 years.  So, A celebrates his 47th birthday.  The date of death on March 21, 1994 is 93 days after the birthday.  (using Excel or viewing a calendar)

Person B: From December 18, 1904 to December 18, 1951 is exactly 47 years.  So, B celebrates his 47th birthday.  The date of death on March 20, 1952 is 93 days after the birthday.  (using Excel or viewing a calendar)

Using Method Two (above), Person A lives 47 years and 93 days.  Person B also lives 47 years and 93 days.  (There is no "one day" difference.)

===Method Three===

I tried to use the Wikipedia template located at:  [[Template:age in years and days]].

Typing in these dates and values yields the following results:

Person A:

<nowiki> {{age in years and days|1946|12|18|1994|03|21}} </nowiki>

yields:

{{age in years and days|1946|12|18|1994|03|21}}

Person B:

<nowiki> {{age in years and days|1904|12|18|1952|03|20}} </nowiki>

yields:

{{age in years and days|1904|12|18|1952|03|20}}

So, Method Three (above) agrees with Method Two (above) ... Person A and Person B died at exactly the same age.

===Method Four===

I also tried to use the Wikipedia template located at:  [[Template:age in days]].

Typing in these dates and values yields the following results:

Person A:

<nowiki> {{age in days|1946|12|18|1994|03|21}} </nowiki>

yields:

{{age in days|1946|12|18|1994|03|21}}

Person B:

<nowiki> {{age in days|1904|12|18|1952|03|20}} </nowiki>

yields:

{{age in days|1904|12|18|1952|03|20}}

So, Method Four (above) agrees with Method One (above) ... Person A and Person B did not die at exactly the same age, but one day off.

===Question===

Can anyone help me understand the difference / distinction / discrepancy between these four methods?  I seem to be missing something, but I cannot figure out what.  Thanks.  Where is my reasoning flawed?

Method One and Four agree that "A" lives one day longer than "B". (17,260 versus 17,259)

Methods Two and Three agree that "A" and "B" live exactly the same length of time.  (47 years and 93 days)

So, perhaps the word "year" means a different thing for Person A than it does for Person B?

That is, the word "year" means 365 days in some cases ... but it means 366 days in some other (leap-year) cases.

That might seem to cause the discrepancy.

However, Person "A" has lived during 12 leap years/days ... and Person "B" has '''also''' lived during 12 leap year/days.  

Thus, for both persons, the word "year" means 366 days in 12 years of their lives ... and the word "year" means 365 days in the other 36 years of their lives.  They have both lived through 12 leap years and 35 normal years (thus, a birthday of 47 years total) ... plus a fractional piece of yet another (i.e., their 48th) year.

Can anyone help me understand the difference / distinction / discrepancy between these four methods?  I seem to be missing something, but I cannot figure out what. 

Where is my thinking flawed?  Thanks.  ([[User:Joseph A. Spadaro|Joseph A. Spadaro]] 05:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC))

:All the methods are correct, but methods 1 and 4 are more useful for comparing ages.  The reason is that methods 2 and 3 each count "47 years", but those years have variable lengths, some being leap years and some not.  As it works out, the 47 years between 12/18/1946 and 12/18/1993 contain 12 leap days (48, 52, 56, 60, 64, 68, 72, 76, 80, 84, 88, 92) while the 47 years between 12/18/1904 and 12/18/1951 contain 11 leap days (08, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, 44, 48).  Note that 1952 is not in the 47 year period in the second case. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 07:01, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

:Incidentally, had methods 2 and 3 counted from death back in time, the 47 years in each period both would have 12 leap years: 03/21/1947 to 03/21/1994 (48, 52, 56, 60, 64, 68, 72, 76, 80, 84, 88, 92) and 03/20/1905 to 03/20/1952 (08, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, 44, 48, 52).  The number of additional days would be 93 from 12/18/1946 to 03/21/1947 but only 92 from 12/18/1904 to 03/20/1905.  Thus, you would get ages of 47 years, 93 days and 47 years, 92 days, respectively.  The lesson ?  Don't use variable sized units if you want an accurate result. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 07:19, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

:: Hi, StuRat.  Thank you for your reply to my question posted on the Math Help Desk (referenced aboved).  I appreciate it.  However, I am confused now more than ever.  Can you please help me understand this situation?  It's driving me nuts.  Thanks so much.  If you like, please start your explanation from scratch -- so that I can follow it more easily.  However, I thought it was important to note that both people (A and B) lived through 12 leap days in the course of their lives.  At some point, you said that one guy only had 11 leap days, while the other had 12.  (You lost me there.)  Then, you said, if we count "backwards" (from death to birth), then they both have 12 leap days in their lifetimes.  (Huh?  You lost me there again.)  So, I am very lost lost (= lost squared).  Ha ha.  Would you mind explaining this again, starting from scratch?  Thanks a lot.  By the way, to clarify confusion: when you say the word "year", please indicate if you mean a calendar year (January 1 to December 31 of 1962, for example) ... or if you mean a full year of the person's life (December 18, 1957 to December 18, 1958, for example).  Thanks again for your time and patience.  Please reply at my Talk Page: [[User talk:Joseph A. Spadaro]].  ([[User:Joseph A. Spadaro|Joseph A. Spadaro]] 14:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC))

::: Follow-up.  The issue is that the 1952 leap day is not counted as part of a "year", but as a separate day, using methods 2 and 3.  The period used for the final year is 12/18/1950 to 12/18/1951, which does not include February 29, 1952.  Thus you have an extra leap day, not part of the "47 years".  This doesn't happen with the other person because his year of death, 1994, was not a leap year.  So, while both people had 12 leap days in their lives, methods 2 and 3 only count, for the person who died in 1952, 11 of those in the "years" and one as a separate day, while they count all 12 of those in the "years" and none as a separate day, for the person who died in 1994. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 15:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

:::Here's a way we can simplify the problem, leave off the first 44 years, which contain 11 leap days in either case:

:::<nowiki>{{age in years and days|1904|12|18|1948|12|18}}</nowiki> = 
:::{{age in years and days|1904|12|18|1948|12|18}}

:::<nowiki>{{age in years and days|1946|12|18|1990|12|18}}</nowiki> = {{age in years and days|1946|12|18|1990|12|18}}


:::<nowiki>{{age in days|1904|12|18|1948|12|18}}</nowiki> = 
:::{{age in days|1904|12|18|1948|12|18}}

:::<nowiki>{{age in days|1946|12|18|1990|12|18}}</nowiki> = {{age in days|1946|12|18|1990|12|18}}

:::This leaves us with the portion that contains the "discrepancy":

:::<nowiki>{{age in years and days|1948|12|18|1952|03|20}}</nowiki> = 
:::{{age in years and days|1948|12|18|1952|03|20}}

:::<nowiki>{{age in years and days|1990|12|18|1994|03|21}}</nowiki> = {{age in years and days|1990|12|18|1994|03|21}}


:::<nowiki>{{age in days|1948|12|18|1952|03|20}}</nowiki> = 
:::{{age in days|1948|12|18|1952|03|20}}

:::<nowiki>{{age in days|1990|12|18|1994|03|21}}</nowiki> = {{age in days|1990|12|18|1994|03|21}}

:::Now, let's break down how those calcs are done:

:::<nowiki>{{age in days|1948|12|18|1949|12|18}}</nowiki> = {{age in days|1948|12|18|1949|12|18}}

:::<nowiki>{{age in days|1949|12|18|1950|12|18}}</nowiki> = {{age in days|1949|12|18|1950|12|18}}

:::<nowiki>{{age in days|1950|12|18|1951|12|18}}</nowiki> = {{age in days|1950|12|18|1951|12|18}}

:::<nowiki>{{age in days|1951|12|18|1952|03|20}}</nowiki> = {{age in days|1951|12|18|1952|03|20}} <- Leap day included


:::<nowiki>{{age in days|1990|12|18|1991|12|18}}</nowiki> = {{age in days|1990|12|18|1991|12|18}}

:::<nowiki>{{age in days|1991|12|18|1992|12|18}}</nowiki> = {{age in days|1991|12|18|1992|12|18}} <- Leap day included

:::<nowiki>{{age in days|1992|12|18|1993|12|18}}</nowiki> = {{age in days|1992|12|18|1993|12|18}}

:::<nowiki>{{age in days|1993|12|18|1994|03|21}}</nowiki> = {{age in days|1993|12|18|1994|03|21}}

:::So, by shifting the leap day out of one of the "years" and into the days counted separately, it appears that an equal length of time has passed, when, in fact, the 2nd interval is a day longer.   Note that all ranges were assumed to be from noon on the starting day to noon on the ending day (or from the same time on both days, in any case). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 16:26, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

::::I'm not StuRat, but perhaps I can help as well.  You've hit on the problem on the RefDesk as well as here:
::::*''year'' is used as a term meaning "sometimes 365 days and sometimes 366 days, starting from an arbitrary point" (in this case, that point is Dec 18)
::::This gives you two different meanings of the word "year" scattered across your examples, intermingled in the final answer, with no further distinction given.  That ambiguity is why you get the varied results for "years + days lived" even though it's quite easy to agree that persons A and B lived a different number of days.
::::Does that clarify the issue, or are you looking for a more explicit breakdown? &mdash; [[User talk :Lomn|Lomn]] 13:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

::::: Thanks to you both.  I appreciate the thorough explanations.  I need a chance to read through them carefully and digest them.  I will see if I understand this situation, or not, and get back to you as appropriate.  Many thanks again.  This problem was really stumping me, and I assume that your thorough explanations will make sense of it, after I have had a chance to read/digest/process them.  Thanks.  ([[User:Joseph A. Spadaro|Joseph A. Spadaro]] 17:34, 6 October 2007 (UTC))

::::::OK, once you get a chance to look it all over, please let me know if it makes sense.  The source of the problem seems to be defining a year as anything other than a calendar year (Jan 1 - Dec 31), which means leap days may, or may not, be included, depending on which days are defined as the "year" and which are the extra days. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 12:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

== RD: Decline ==

I have replied to your response in the Reference desk question "Decline". --[[User:Taraborn|Taraborn]] 15:59, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

:Can you provide a link or at least tell me which Reference Desk ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 17:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

::I think Taraborn is referring to [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#Decline]]. - [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 02:34, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

:::Yea, I managed to find it on my own.  Thanks. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 04:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

== Non-Euclidean? ==

Would you consider editing a paragraph in [[Isaac Titsingh]]?
:"Titsingh returned to Europe where, among several other "firsts", he became the first to introduce the unique [[Wasan]]/Euclidean mathematics<ref>''Maths arising independent of any Greek foundation could and did develop a geometry un-inflected by the input of Euclid's systemic approach.  And yet, the term "non-Euclidean" would be misleading or wrongly applicable to [[Wasan]] or [[sangaku]] because the modern idea of alternatives to the Euclidean proofs are inextricably intertwined with an intellectual exercise which involves modifying the basic postulates of observed reality.''</ref> of  ''[[sangaku]]'' to the West.<ref>Association of American Geographers. (1911). '' Annals of the Association of American Geographers,'' (Vol. I) p. 35.</ref>[http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S15/04/04O77/index.xml ...link to ''sangaku'' overview, Princeton University][https://web.archive.org/web/20070930010653/http://www.arsetmathesis.nl/sangatekst.htm ...link to ''sangaku'' explanation -- digitized photos and geometry graphics (text in Dutch)]'

What about supplementing this text with something like these two sentences as an in-line footnote? 
:''Maths arising independent of any Greek foundation could and did develop a geometry un-inflected by the input of Euclid's systemic approach.  And yet, the term "non-Euclidean" would be misleading or wrongly applicable to [[Wasan]] or [[sangaku]] because the modern idea of alternatives to the Euclidean proofs are inextricably intertwined with an intellectual exercise which involves modifying the basic postulates of observed reality.''

I'm inclined to think that this isn't helpful -- rather more of a distraction?  Maybe not ....  What do you think? --[[User:Ooperhoofd|Ooperhoofd]] 18:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

:I tend to agree.  Is "un-inflected" supposed to mean "uninfluenced" ?  If so, that's an odd way to say it.  Also, I'd say "mathematics", not "maths", since "maths" sounds strange in American English, where "mathematics" is abbreviated as "math".  Finally, may I ask why you came to me with this request ?  I would seem to be an odd choice. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 20:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

::Sorry to have presented an unwelcome query ....  I simply wanted to expand a one-sentence paragraph which, I suppose, does already stand well enough on its own.  I had thought you might have a valuable perspective which could help make the article better.  A difficult-to-parse sequence led to my mistaken impression that you could embody a somewhat rare blend of interests in pre-Meiji Japanese history and in non-Japanese Euclidean geometry.  

::As for why I contacted you now: It just happens that in the past week, [[User:Nik42 |Nik42]] made an uncommonly crisp and insightful comment at [[Talk:Japanese era name]]; and when I followed that user-link, I stumbled across your user-name.  No doubt you've forgotten, but in 2006, you were asking Nik42 about an obscure Edo period controversy:
:::* '''''Kan'ei 6''''' ([[1627]]): The "Purple Clothes Incident" (紫衣事件, shi-e jiken): The Emperor was accused of having bestowed honorific purple garments to more than ten priests despite the shogun's edict which banned them for two years (probably in order to break the bond between the Emperor and religious circles). The shogunate intervened making the bestowing of the garments invalid.

::For some time, this enigmatic subject has been on my short list of things to look into a bit further ... and then I noticed that your user page mentions [[Euclidean distance]] as one of the articles in which you felt your contribution was noteworthy.  Ergo, I added 2+2 and came up with a wrong sum.  It was all a bit of a stretch, I know; but there you have it.  I took a chance, but it didn't work out as well as I'd hoped.

::It all had to do with improving [[Isaac Titsingh]].  What more can I say?  This appears to be one of those times when I'm learning the hard way .... --[[User:Ooperhoofd|Ooperhoofd]] 06:53, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

:::OK, it makes sense now.  I do indeed remember those edits, although, until now, I never thought of there being any link between them.  Well, no harm done, and I hope my suggestions on that paragraph are helpful. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 12:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

== [[Carpal tunnel syndrome]] ==

I seem to be suffering from said affliction (oh no, a medical diagnosis, ban him immediately !).  Therefore, I have been, and will continue to be, less active until it heals.  See you later my friends (and enemies). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 16:16, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

:Get well soon (is that medical advice?) & do come here when you can - you are very much appreciated. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] 17:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks ! It has reduced to a level where I can contribute a bit. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 17:18, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

== A.Z.'s block ==
I thought I would reply here, rather than on Dmcdevit‎'s talkpage. Yes, the reasoning, evidence and discussion leading to many of ArbCom's decisions are non transparent. By the very nature of this information it is sometimes difficult to know exactly why, but in the few occasions I have been privy to information restricted by ArbCom, it was relating to personal identifying details of editors and/or information that compromises the security of editors. Whether that is a good or bad thing, whether than we like it or not is somewhat beside the point. WP is not a democracy, and everthing is not automatically open for community discussion and decision based on democreatic principles. Jimbo made that clear when he first appointed ArbCom: "The Arbitration Committee [...] can impose a solution that I'll consider to be binding, with of course the exception that I reserve the right of executive clemency and indeed even to dissolve the whole thing if it turns out to be a disaster" In other words, ArbCom can make decisions without justifying itself the community and only Jimbo himself can over-rule this. No amount of demanding ArbCom listen to consensus will change that. So, does ArbCom have the potential issue unfair blocks? Of course it does. Is this particular block unfair. Who knows? You and I are not privy to the facts, so we can't know. Maybe will will never be privy to the facts, so we will never be able to know. That is simply something we have to accept if we wish to remain part of this community.

The second issues it that there has been a few recent blocks of so-called "pro-paedophilia advocates" (and I use that term because thats is what others have accused them of being, not because I consider them to be that, personally). I do get the feeling that there is a kind of hysteria around here that people who don't espouse the established "paedophila is bad" line are themselves paedophiles, and paedophiles must be blocked. I don't know if there is any official sanction of that (though Jimbo generally appears to have little patience for such individuals). I personally don't agree with that reasoning . With respect to encyclopaedic content, a "pro-paedophilia advocate" is no more a concern to me than an "anti-paedophilia advocate" - WP is not a place for ''any'' type of advocacy. But I am not WP's legal or PR counsel and wouldn't have to deal with the fallout if the project was implicated in an online grooming scandal. Everyone is welcome to contributed to WP, but in reality, does that mean we should openly welcome self identifying paedophiles and permit them to interact with children? Is that really in the long term interests of the encyclopaedia? I guess what I am trying to say is that while its all well and fine to discuss these issues in purely academic terms, but people like ArbCom and Jimbo have strategic, legal and ethical considerations that we don't. To conclude, I, again personally, don't believe A.Z.'s edits have demonstrated advocacy. However, his editing style has does mean he tends to offer personal opinion and couch things in terms of his beliefs. In the culture of low tolerance for non-conformist views on this issue, he was skating on thin ice. I and others tried to warn him of this a few weeks back, but to little avail. I hope his appeal is successful, but I'm not holding my breath. [[User:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">Rockpock</span>]]<span style="color:black;">e</span>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">t</span>]] 19:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

:This seems like a horrid way to conduct business.  How are we to know if we should object to the block (to Jimbo Wales) and ask him to overrule the ArbComm if everything they do is secret ?  It's one thing to say "this isn't a democracy", but denying the "common people" even with the most basic info of who decided to impose a block, for how long, and for what reason, seriously undermines my confidence in "the system".  As for A.Z., I've seen no evidence that he is personally a pedophile, and haven't even seen any evidence that he holds pro-pedophile views.  The edits of his I've seen so far appear to be rather balanced on the issue.  Do you have any other edits you can point out that I may have missed ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 20:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

:Also, do you have any info on the block and locking of [[User:A.Z.]]'s talk page ?  Were these actions actually requested by the Arb Comm or is [[User:Dmcdevit]]  acting on his own ?  (How do I find out who locked the page ?). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 20:52, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

::I see the block of his talk page was done by [[User:JzG]], who, strangely, doesn't even have a user page of his own. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 20:56, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

::: Back to front: 
::*JzG deleted his own user page in September per [[WP:CSD#G7]]. I don't know the reasons for protecting his page apart from his justification ''"Arbs can write, and A.Z. really does not need the drama in a sensitive case like this."''. I'm guessing it because demands for information were not constructive, the real relevant informed discussions need to take place privately and thus anyone with anything to say should send it to ArbCom. They tried asking people to do that, but they continued to protest of A.Z.'s talk page.
::* I'm the dark about this as much as you. Dmcdevit's comments seems to suggest he was acting "for and on behalf of" ArbCom and thus I don't see any reason to believe he being untruthful about that. Whether ArbCom is aware of something we are not, or have made a decision based on the same information we have, I don't know. If it is the former, was are not in a position to criticize their decision, if it is the latter, then I think it is a poor decision. Based on my experience, I'm guessing it is the former.
::* I don't have any specific edits of A.Z.'s to hand, I'll see what I can find later. However, he generally espoused the view that adult-child sex isn't necessarily child sex abuse and was involved in efforts to distinguish the two from each other in article space. Those sort of arguments are not atypical among the pro-paedophilia lobby during attempts to POV-fork (though, again, I don't have any reason to believe that was A.Z.'s motivation).
::* You make a fair point. How can there be oversight of ArbCom, even by Jimbo, if he is not even aware of ArbCom's actions? I don't know if Jimbo has access to all of ArbCom's private discussion, perhaps he does (you could ask him). However, I agree with you that if there are non-transparent decisions made then, there perhaps should be some mechanism through which we (the community) are at least made aware of what has happened, even if we can't know the exact reasons for it. That might be as simple as making it explicitly clear in the blocking rationale (to be fair, Dmcdevit did note he was blocking for "engaging in pedophilia advocacy, appeals go to arbcom per talk page" which would suggest it was an ArbCom decision) or perhaps there should be a page listing non-transparent ArbCom actions with a brief rationale, so we can all see what ArbCom is up to. The problem, of course, is that such a page would result in lots of people arguing with all of ArbCom's decisions (as we see with A.Z.'s case) because as far as they can tell the person doesn't deserve to be blocked. However, if the reason they were blocked was obvious to the community then there wouldn't be a need for it to be dealt with privately! The only way to break the circular reasoning is to ''trust'' the integrity of ArbCom and, as a check and balance, trust that Jimbo has the ability to oversee their decisions properly (i.e. that he has access to the same information as they do). Other things we could ask for is that, once the appeal is finished and everything is settled, a member of ArbCom provide as much information as they can for the reason behind the block in the blocked person's talk page. I find they are usually as forthcoming as they can be if you ask them respectfully and at the appropriate juncture. 
::*Personally I don't think it is a "horrid" system. The project has a legal and ethical obligation to respect the privacy of individuals by controlling identifying information (which, for example, is why checkuser information is limited and controlled). This means there will be occasions where evidence and information must remain private. In those instances there cannot be public scrutiny and we simply have to trust in those people elected or appointed to make the appropriate decision. In this instance the most basic information were there for those that know where to look: who decided to impose a block (Dmcdevit, "for and on behalf of" ArbCom) for how long (indefinately), and for what reason (for engaging in pedophilia advocacy). [[User:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">Rockpock</span>]]<span style="color:black;">e</span>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">t</span>]] 21:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

:::*I think they could make a lot more of the process public without violating anyone's privacy:

::::1) Make a copy of any discussion or decision on page-locked site with any personal info (names, I/P addresses, etc.) redacted.  The page-lock will prevent people from complaining there, and the redacting will ensure privacy.

::::2) There is no reason why this has to wait until the process is completed.  They may be basing decisions on incomplete or incorrect info, which could be remedied if those people with the info knew Arb Comm had bad or missing info they were using. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 01:17, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

::::: Its rarely that simple. People are naturally curious (why is partly the reason we are all interested in why A.Z. was blocked), I would argue people who choose to spend their free time contributing to an encyclopaedia are at the extreme end of the curious spectrum too. I was privy to restricted information on a recent case and ArbCom, rightly so, would not say ''anything'' more about it publically because even saying what had happened in the most general terms would have sent everyone scurrying off to search, looking for anything that might fit. That serves no purpose. Either is causes people to jump to the wrong conclusions or someone makes the right conclusion and suddenly the information is no longer private. Also, while we can delete and oversight info from Wikipedia, we have no control of what happens on forks or other sites (this is partly the reasoning behind [[WP:BADSITES]]). At the end of the day, personal security/privacy trumps pretty much everything else and if that means we are all left in the dark while the case is discussed, I'll accept that. What would not be acceptable if A.Z. was kept in the dark, but we have no reason to believe that is the case. [[User:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">Rockpock</span>]]<span style="color:black;">e</span>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">t</span>]] 01:47, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

::::::Can you give me some indication of what the case was you were involved with and what privacy issues were being discussed ?  I still think the Arb Comm needs to follow the principles of the United States' [[Freedom of Information Act]], which is that every bit of info should be disclosed unless that particular bit of info would cause harm (except that they shouldn't wait until the info is requested).  Unfortunately, many in the US gov and Wikipedia apparently think the reverse, that everything should be kept private, unless they are forced to divulge it. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 12:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Sure. It was [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles]], the information was an individual's home address, and the incident in question is summarized [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/The_Troubles/Evidence#Vintagekits_recently_and_knowingly_used_paramilitary_rhetoric_to_the_effect_of_intimidating_other_editors|here]]. I would note, however, the offending edit was [[Wikipedia:Oversight|oversighted]] a week or so after it was made (completely removed from the record), so by the time that evidence was presented, it could be discussed openly because there was no way anyone could dig up the edit and find the personal information. However, before oversight was carried out, there was demands that the edit leading to the block be identified, leading to a frenzied debate on the editor in question's talk page (see [[User_talk:Vintagekits/Archive_7#My_side_of_the_story_.28for_what_its_worth.29|here]] for an example, but the whole page is relevant). Its easy to oversight single edits on Wikipedia, and then they can be discussed without fear that the personal information will leak (the equivalent of Freedom of Information releases, with sensitive details blanked out). Everything gets a lot more complicated when the information cannot be oversighted and is still out there to be found. In those cases admins/ArbCom have their hands tied. This is the problem with the FOI system: it only works when you can control the flow of sensitive information.
:::::::: To be honest, though, this is all speculation. For all I know there is no sensitive information in A.Z.'s case specifically. [[User:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">Rockpock</span>]]<span style="color:black;">e</span>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<span style="color:green;">t</span>]] 22:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::Yes, it's beginning to look as though the blocking Admin lied about it being on behalf of the ArbComm.  A.Z. sent me an e-mail saying he had no dealings with, or notification from, the ArbComm prior to the block.  I asked one of the ArbComm members, and, while being evasive, he seems to support what A.Z. said, and not the blocking Admin. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 03:07, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

== Toys Я Us advertisment ==

Hello, last night I was watching Saving Private Ryan and I saw the ad you were talking about. It sounds like the girl was saying "can we get some more toys" or something along those lines. <span style="font-family:Arial;color:blue"> '''''Cheers,[[User:JetLover|Je]][[User talk:JetLover|t]][[Special:Contributions/JetLover|Lover]] ([[User:JetLover/False reverts|Report a mistake]])'''''</span> 23:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

:Is that all ?  I was thinking it was something funny.  Thanks. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 01:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

== Boolean logic ==

Hi Stu,

just a note to let you know that Vaughan Pratt has written a rather long question to you at [[talk:Boolean logic]], requesting your input on your objections to the level of difficulty of [[Boolean algebra (logic)]]. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 04:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

:Thanks, I'll take a look. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 15:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

== Boolean algebra task force ==

I'd like to invite you to participate in the [[WP:BATF|Boolean algebra 
task force]] that I am forming. Despite the name, a task force is just an ''ad hoc'' subcommittee of a wikiproject to work on a particular issue. In this case, I think that our articles on various aspects of Boolean algebra, propositional logic, and applications would benefit from some big-picture planning of the organization of material into various articles. The task force would not require a great time commitment. The main goal is to work out a proposal for how the material should be arranged. A second goal is for the focus to remain interdisciplinary, including computer science, logic, and mathematics. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 16:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

== regarding excess water intake! ==

StuRat! This is temuzion & I should remind u the matter which we r dealing. "excess water intake leads to kidney troubles". Regarding that matter u told me that It might be a sign of diabetes. But it was certainly not diabetes. For more details see the original page where u saw my question [[User:Temuzion|Temuzion]] ([[User talk:Temuzion|talk]]) 04:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

==CECB List==

From [[Comparison of CECB units]]:

{| class="wikitable sortable" style="font-size: 85%; text-align: center; width: auto;"
!Brand
!Model
![[S-Video]]
!Analog passthrough
![[Smart antenna]]
!Manufacturer
![[MPEG-2|MPEG]] Decoder / [[System-on-a-chip|SoC]]
!Demodulator
!Tuner
![[EPG]] type
![[#Other Features Breakdown|Other features]]
!Prices and store
|-                               

! style="text-align:left;" | [http://www.apexdigitalinc.com/ Apex]
| style="text-align:left;" | [http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Apex_DT250.html DT250]
| {{Yes}}<ref name="EZD_Features_Matrix"/>
| {{Yes}}<ref name="EZD_Features_Matrix"/>
| {{Yes}}<ref name="EZD_Features_Matrix"/>
| Denca Industrial Ltd.<ref name="AZSQ.E232568"/>
| {{unk}}
| {{unk}}
| {{unk}}
| {{Yes2}}3-Day
| D, L, V
| $60 -> Best Buy
|-

! style="text-align:left;" | [http://www.dsconverter.com/ Digital Stream]
| style="text-align:left;" | [http://www.dsconverter.com/index.php?p=3 DTX9950]
| {{no}}
| {{yes}}
| {{no}}
| NHENS Digital, Inc.
| LGDT1111D
| Thomson demod + tuner
| Thomson demod + tuner
| {{Yes2}}12-Hr,1-Ch
| D, L, U, V
| $60 -> Radio Shack
|-

! style="text-align:left;" | [[Best Buy#Private label brands|Insignia]]
| style="text-align:left;" |  [http://insignia-products.com/pc-318-49-insignia-digital-to-analog-converter-for-analog-tvs.aspx NS-DXA1]
| {{No}}
| {{No}}
| {{No}}
| [[LG Electronics]]
| LG LGDT1111D
| SoC Integrated
| [http://www.lginnotek.com/main.html LG Innotek] TDVG-H051F/ Sanyo [http://edc.sanyo.com/english/products/tuner/index.html UBA00AL]
| {{partial|Now/Next}}
| D, L, -S, V
| $60 -> Best Buy
|-

! style="text-align:left;" | [[Best Buy#Private label brands|Insignia]]
| style="text-align:left;" | NS-DXA1-APT<sup>†</sup><ref>[http://fccid.net/number.php?id=523261&fcc=BEJ9QKE00710 FCC permissive change attachments for NS-DXA1-APT]</ref>
| {{No}}
| {{Yes}}
| {{No}}
| [[LG Electronics]]
| LG LGDT1111D
| SoC Integrated
| [http://www.lginnotek.com/main.html LG Innotek] TDVG-H151F
| {{partial|Now/Next}}
| D, L, P, V
| $60 -> Best Buy

|-
! style="text-align:left;" | [http://www.magnavox.com Magnavox]
| style="text-align:left;" | [http://www.funai-corp.com/6pdf/om/TB100MW9.pdf TB100MW9]
| {{No}}
| {{No}}
| {{No}}
| Funai
| R8A66973FP
| {{unk}}
| Sanyo [http://edc.sanyo.com/english/products/tuner/index.html UB010AF]
|{{Yes2}}6Hr/1Ch
| D, L
| $50 -> Walmart
|-

! style="text-align:left;" | [[Zenith  Electronics|Zenith]]
| style="text-align:left;" | [http://www.zenith.com/dtv/dtt900.html DTT900] [http://www.zenith.com/dtv/downloads/DTT900_spec_sheet.pdf DTT900]
| {{No}}
| {{No}}
| {{No}}
| LG Electronics
| LG DT1111D
| SoC Integrated
| [http://www.lginnotek.com/main.html LG Innotek] TDVG-H051F/ Sanyo [http://edc.sanyo.com/english/products/tuner/index.html UBA00AL]
| {{partial|Now/Next}}
| D, L, -S, V
| $60 -> Circuit City
|-

! style="text-align:left;" | [[Zenith  Electronics|Zenith]]
| style="text-align:left;" | DTT901<ref>[http://fccid.net/number.php?id=523261&fcc=BEJ9QKE00710 FCC permissive change attachments for DTT901]</ref>
| {{No}}
| {{Yes}}
| {{No}}
| LG Electronics
| LG DT1111D
| SoC Integrated
| [http://www.lginnotek.com/main.html LG Innotek] TDVG-H151F
| {{partial|Now/Next}}
| D, L, P, V
| $60 -> Circuit City
|-

|}

==Other Features Breakdown==
{| class="wikitable" style="font-size: 85%; text-align: center; width: auto;"
|+ Other Features (see table above for which boxes have which)
!Code
!Name
! style="text-align:left;" | Description
|-
!D
|Digital [[Closed Captioning|CC]]
| style="text-align:left;" | Capable of decoding '''digital''' or ATSC ([[EIA-708]]) closed captions, which allow the user to change various aspects of the captions such as size, font style, background opacity, text color, etc. This code should not be used to indicate support for '''any''' kind of CC, since all boxes are required by law to support the older analog or NTSC ([[EIA-608]]) captioning standard.
|-
!E
|[[Power_supply#Domestic_mains_adapter|External Power Supply]]
| style="text-align:left;" | Powered by an external power supply. A box with this feature might be used in a vehicle without using a power inverter.
|-
!L
|Multilanguage Menus
| style="text-align:left;" | The menus can be changed to languages other than English, either during system setup or in normal use.
|-
!-N
|No Channel Update
| style="text-align:left;" | Can't add channels without first wiping out the channels you've already found.  Units which only do this type of replacement auto-scan may never be able to find all channels at once, especially where antenna rotation or adjustments must be made to find different stations.  There are two ways around this problem, an "add only" auto-scan, and manual channel adds.
|-
!P
|Low power consumption
| style="text-align:left;" | Unit uses less than 5 watts of power (e.g. won't run warm).  This may also make the unit last longer.
|-
!R
|Reminders
| style="text-align:left;" | Settable reminders to alert you when a show is on.
|-
!-S
|Stereo volume is low
| style="text-align:left;" | Setting the audio output mode to stereo substantially reduces the volume versus mono or analog.  This means the volume will change when switching between analog and digital TV viewing.
|-
!T
|[[VCR]] Timer
| style="text-align:left;" | Schedules programs at desired times so they can be recorded unattended to TiVo, VCR, DVD recorder or other recording media.
|-
!U
|[[Universal Remote]]
| style="text-align:left;" | Comes with a universal remote control capable of being programmed to control other entertainment devices. Be sure to review the manual to make sure it can control your brand of TV, etc.
|-
!V
|Volume Control
| style="text-align:left;" | Capable of independently controlling the output volume. You could, for example, set your TV to a particular volume and leave it there, using the CECB's remote to control volume instead, or use it to mute the CECB and avoid using the television remote almost entirely.  Note that this type of volume control only allows you to reduce the volume level relative to that set on the TV, while a universal remote can also increase the volume level set on the TV.
|-
|}

== High Output Renal Failure ==

I've requested some help on the [[acute renal failure]] article at [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine|the doctor's mess]]. I don't know if there's a nephrologist aboard, but hopefully the article will nonetheless get some attention. - <span style="font-family: cursive">[[User:Nunh-huh|Nunh-huh]]</span> 21:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

:Thanks.  Please let me know if there's any progress. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 14:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

== Update on the "flaming drink" question ==

I just thought I'd tell you (Franamax, StuRat, hydnjo, Atlant) how the flaming drink thing went.  Well, mixed results.  It's all made, but sometimes it works and some times it does not.  What makes it extra odd, is that it works 100% of the time for me, but only about 50% for the girl that has to do it.  So far, three shows with an audience and it only lit once. UGHH!!!

What I did:  I made a fire place poker out of mostly thin PVC pipe.  In the handle is a gas grill starter with wires going inside the pipe.  Franamax - You mentioned the handle idea and I had already thought of that, but I didn't want to steer people towards what I was already thinking.  I guess it's just a case of great minds thinking alike. ;-)

All of it is painted with "Hammered" spray paint made for outside plastic furniture.  Here's a shot of it close up without the flame.
http://wonderley.com/shows/2008/FarmersDaughter/Photos/Page01/shots/2008-04-17~069.jpg
That's me on the couch.
In the sort of V shaped tip is the igniter at the tip and the other wire coming at an angle.  My invention sparks 99% of the time.

In the coffee mug is a metal jigger that I raised to the level of the top of the mug with a piece of PVC pipe.  That was a mistake.  I made the level of the jigger come to the level of the top of the cup so that the most amount of the flame would be visible.  It should be raised, but not all the way to the top.  I have to pretend to drink from this cup and the jigger (which gets scolding hot) is hard to NOT touch if the jigger is too high.

I scuffed up the inside of the mug and the other side of the jigger to get the glue to stick to it.  The fact that the jigger is metal does not appear to have any effect on the spark.

In the jigger was originally only about 1/16 of an inch of  "Golden Grain" booze - 95% alcohol.  At my house, it ignited every time.  But, not for Cheryl.  I later thought about it was having it on my kitchen counter.  That's higher up so I was holding the poker at more of an angle on the mug rather than straight down.  So, we changed the jigger to about an half inch on alcohol.  Soon before going on stage with it, she moves some of it on the side of the jigger for even more surface area.

When we do get a flame the poker flames a little as well and she blows it out.  That actually looks great.  The idea of adding salt is awesome - Thanks Atlant.  However, I had no luck dissolving salt in the alcohol.  I warmed up some alcohol with having hot water all around it in a thin glass and stirred a lot of salt in it.  I then let it settle some and used a syringe with a wide tip to suck up some of the alcohol from the middle thinking I'd get the best alcohol with dissolved salt that I could.  It did not appear to make any difference in the color of the flame or the ability to light it.  However, we put salt in a sugar bowl.  Once lit, putting a pinch of "sugar" in the flaming drink was an awesome effect.

I also tried freezing some of the booze so that the 5% that was not alcohol would be solid and use the 100% alcohol that was left - after it warmed back up and it made no difference.  In fact, whatever the 5% that wasn't alcohol, appeared to be unfreezable as well.

Thanks again for all of your ideas. If you want to see more about the show, visit Wonderley.com
--[[User:Wonderley|Wonderley]] ([[User talk:Wonderley|talk]]) 09:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

:The freezing method (or the more common evaporation method) isn't going to work to purify alcohol further.  That's why they only sell 95% alcohol, it's difficult to get a higher percentage through distillation.  There probably are ways, but they are prohibitively expensive, like a high speed centrifuge. 

:Another suggestion, why not film the flaming drink part and show that during each showing.  This will get by the problem of it not lighting all the time and the potential danger.  I realize it may not have quite the impact on film, but that's a trade-off you may have to make. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 13:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

== formating hints/ ref. desk ==
Thanks for the hint.  I had figured out the colons after a while, but still sometimes forget.  Your point was well made and is taken.  I'll try to do better.  Just have some pity for cave people like me.  I stopped programming when Assembler went out of fashion.  It's taking me a while to learn what all the typographical marks are used for these days.  Some of the posts I look at and people might as well be speaking Vogon.  And my generation used to be renowned for using a lot of acronyms. We can't hold a candle to GFDL or WP-RF.  I used to joke that my aunt wasn't 'up with all that technology" and now people tell me about "namespaces" and I go "Huh??"  Plus there's all that stuff you have to think of so people won't get upset with you, like logging in, signing and now colons.  Just don't run over granny when she forgets to not walk up the one way street the wrong way. Thanks :-)  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Lisa4edit|Lisa4edit]] ([[User talk:Lisa4edit|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lisa4edit|contribs]]) 15:59, 27 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:LOL, you forgot to sign.  You may find I'm closer to your generation than you think, being a Fortran programmer myself. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 20:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

== Gully e-card... ==

Thanks very much for that. Made me smile.

Just managed to save it from my spambox as it goes. :)

It kinda reminded me of [[Wikipedia:Reference_desk_archive/Science/2006_July_23#How_many_birds_would_you_have_to_tie_to_your_body_in_order_for_them_to_carry_you_into_the_air.3F|this]] RD topic (dunno if you've seen it). --[[User:Kurt Shaped Box|Kurt Shaped Box]] ([[User talk:Kurt Shaped Box|talk]]) 23:20, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

:Glad you liked it, I thought you might.  The way he fed one then a dozen more showed up seemed  spot on. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 06:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

::They forgot to show the first gull going into an attack stance and trying in vain to defend the food from the others, before getting pushed aside and ending up with little or nothing. Now that would be true to life... ;) --[[User:Kurt Shaped Box|Kurt Shaped Box]] ([[User talk:Kurt Shaped Box|talk]]) 21:52, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

== hi ==

Hi, StuRat - any chance of dropping me a line? - adambrowne666athotmail.com - ta [[User:Adambrowne666|Adambrowne666]] ([[User talk:Adambrowne666|talk]]) 21:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

:I don't quite understand.  You want me to send you an e-mail ?  If so, regarding what topic ?  Do you possibly have me confused with someone else ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 00:19, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

==Proposal==
Since you were heavily involved in the discussion at [[Wikipedia:Responding to suicidal individuals]] some time ago I thought you might be interested in discussing the merits of a similar but slightly different proposal [[WP:VPR#Threats/suicide admin. notice board|here]]. I would be very interested in your opinion. Cheers, --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 00:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

== Language of the dinosaurs ==

Fortran? good god, I almost forgot that existed.  I was taught it at university but have never used it since.  You mean it actually has a use? [[User:Spinningspark|'''<span style="background:#FFF090;color:#00C000">Sp<span style="background:#FFF0A0;color:#80C000">in<span style="color:#C08000">ni</span></span><span style="color:#C00000">ng</span></span><span style="color:#2820F0">Spark</span>''']] 13:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

:I used it in my last job, which was writing [[CAD]] programs for [[Newport News]] shipyards.  It seems far less prone to errors from common problems like confusing pointers, addresses, and values, and failing to add a null terminator to the end of a character string. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 14:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

== Re:Acid Reflux ==

Give it time and you will be up with me soon. My problem is that the diet, exercise and sleep tips don't work well for me these days because these were the tips I originally observed back when my doc first suspected GERD (at the time, I was in the second grade). Now, as a collage student, the diet and exercise tips and sleep advice, combined with the meds, all seem to be failing. I grow more frustrated by the day that there isn;t more that I could do to relieve the problem: usually when I ask people I get this same advice, its just that for once I was hoping someone may have heard about a herbal extract or a radical new surgury or a transplant or something of that nature that I could ask my doc about instead of seeing that all to familar 'no' head shake and that look that suggestiosn I be dead in ten years. 

The post at RD was technically in the wrong (I was having an attack and was venting a little), but when one loses all hope and falls in to the frustration and hopelessness that the rest of his life must be lived like a old person unless one wants to be up at 2:30 in the morning screaming in agony from what amounts to having napalm poured down one throat doesn't inspire much confidence; neither does the fact that the average person lives all the way into his 60s or 70s. Fifty years of dealing with this on top of the 15 already spent dealing with this has a tendancy to make me just a little depressed and a little suicidal. At any rate, thanks for the comments, and I will check to make sure that I try everything you suggested (though at this point I am fairly confident I have). [[User:TomStar81|TomStar81]] ([[User talk:TomStar81|Talk]]) 00:03, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

:Sorry I couldn't help more.  On the plus side, if this causes you to have a healthier diet than most, perhaps you can avoid many of the health problems others suffer as a result of their poor diets. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 00:26, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

== RE: Removing medical questions ==

Do you not think the message you left me was a little harsh? Especially when you consider that it wasn't very clear cut whether he was asking for medical advice or not. Perhaps I was a little hasty in removing the question but personally i'd rather be safe than sorry. It is not a case of me removing anything medical, search through the archives for examples of where I responded to medical questions. Instead, it is a genuine concern for the OP. Please try and be a little less 'overzealous' yourself next time and stop [[WP:ABF|assuming bad faith]]. Regards, <span style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:small;">'''[[User:Cyclonenim|''CycloneNimrod'']]'''</span> <span style="font-size:x-small;"><sup>[[User_talk:Cyclonenim|talk?]]</sup></span><span style="font-size:x-small;"><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Cyclonenim|contribs?]]</sub></span> 21:33, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

:I didn't say anything on your talk page before, with the euthanasia question removal, but started seeing a bad pattern developing with your removals, so decided to speak up.  And no, don't remove something your unsure of "just because it's better to be safe than sorry".  In cases like that, take it to the Ref Desk Talk Page and gather a consensus before removal. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 21:40, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

:Also, consider that removing a question is like a slap in the face to the OP, and we don't want to do that type of thing unless absolutely necessary. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 21:46, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

::As I've said, i'm sorry for being hasty with the removal but I didn't feel the way you approached me was very respectful at all. A careful comment stating your opinion would have sufficed but instead i've been labelled overzealous. You came across in a manner which, to me, is disrespectful. However, in future I will be more careful. It seemed fairly clear-cut to me at the time that it was requesting medical advice so I went with my instinct and removed it, knowing full well it wouldn't be hard to add again if people disagreed. Regards, <span style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:small;">'''[[User:Cyclonenim|''CycloneNimrod'']]'''</span> <span style="font-size:x-small;"><sup>[[User_talk:Cyclonenim|talk?]]</sup></span><span style="font-size:x-small;"><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Cyclonenim|contribs?]]</sub></span> 22:25, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

:::Ok, to soften the harshness a bit, let me say that I'm glad you left a notice that the question had been removed as medical advice, versus deleting all signs of the question.  If we do run across an actual request for medical diagnosis or advice, then that is one valid way to handle it.  However, I actually prefer to leave the question, post your opinion that it's about medical advice, then redirect it.  For example, in the case of the medication dosage question, we could say "Always follow the recommended dosage on the bottle.  If you're unsure of the proper dosage, consult your pharmacist.  If you feel the dosage should be changed, consult your doctor." [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 22:33, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

== Happy First Day of Summer! ==

<!-- Transcribed from {{User:Mifter/First Day Of Spring}} -->
<div class="NavFrame collapsed"><div class="NavHead" style="background:87 CE EB;">Happy First Day of Summer!</div><div class="NavContent" style="background:240 248 255;">
[[Image:Vallø Road.jpg|thumb|left|204px|A Beautiful Summer Field]]
[[Image:Jocote fruit.jpg|thumb|right|204px|Summer is a time for freshly grown fruits and vegetables.]]
Just wishing you a wonderful First Day of Summer 2008!  {{#if:|{{{sig}}}|[[User:Mifter|Mifter]] ([[User talk:Mifter|talk]])}}
<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
<small>If you live in the Southern Hemisphere and are entering the season of Winter not Summer then I wish you a Happy First Day of Winter 2008!</small>
{{clear}}
</center>Give this greeting to others by adding '''<nowiki>{{subst:First Day of Summer}}</nowiki>''' on their Talk Page.
</div></div>
<!-- End Of Template -->

==Summer Madness?==

But it's not that simple becausse who knows where they are posting from. Not to mention a post titled "Science" on the hum desk *groan with hand to forehead*. Having fun so long as they don't make a habit of it. O..O  Thank you so much fo the cows, SR   :)  [[User:Julia Rossi|Julia Rossi]] ([[User talk:Julia Rossi|talk]]) 11:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, they will make a habit of it.  I understand when people don't quite know where to post a question about how their iPod can display different languages (Science, Computers, Entertainment, Language, Misc ?), but some just seem to pick a Desk at random for questions which obviously belong on one particular Desk. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 11:09, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::And this one[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Asya] even in Tagalog. Geez, (moove)...  [[User:Julia Rossi|Julia Rossi]] ([[User talk:Julia Rossi|talk]]) 11:53, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::The author of that Tagalog Q will just have to tag along for the ride to the Language Desk. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 23:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::::Where they got an astonishing eruditely magnificent answer with the Greek thrown in! Jackpot!  [[User:Julia Rossi|Julia Rossi]] ([[User talk:Julia Rossi|talk]]) 10:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::Well, it's all Greek to me (and probably to the OP, as well).  I'm glad you MOOved it to where they got a good answer, though. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:26, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

== Are the rich immoral? ==

Since this has come down to a debate, I thought I should bring it here instead of clogging up that thread (hope you don't mind). To give you some context, let me just point out that I almost invariably take a fairly liberal view to anything from abortion to capital punishment to environmentalism to gun control to income redistribution to . . . you get the picture?

Now all of the examples you've given (company towns, paying in scrip, child labour, serfdom etc) are clearly immoral. Also, I fully agree that unrestricted capitalism leads to some horrid results. All I'm saying is that you can't call the employers of the poor immoral '''just because they employ the poor'''. Looking at this from the other side: the directors of companies are under all sorts of pressure from regulators, customers, suppliers, unions, shareholders, competitors etc. They also do what they have to do to ensure their companies' survival. And if they're not being immoral then they're not being immoral.

If you want to use the word "immoral" to describe the poverty that arises out of ''legitimate'' business practices, then IMHO you'll have to call the [[free market|system]] immoral, not the business owners who are only players in the game despite the fact that they eat better food than the mineworkers. To me, it's a case of: "Don't hate the player, hate the game". [[User:Zain Ebrahim111|Zain Ebrahim]] ([[User talk:Zain Ebrahim111|talk]]) 20:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:I certainly don't think that anyone who employs the poor is immoral.  However, you seem to imply that anything a business does, so long as it's not illegal, is moral.  Here I strongly disagree.  Note that all those immoral business practices you listed were legal at the time they were practiced.  A business has more of an obligation to it's employees than just to follow the laws, IMHO.  For example, businesses that intentionally cut their employees back to one hour less than full time, so they can deny benefits legally, are skirting the law intentionally just to take advantage of their employees.  Other businesses expect employees to work unpaid overtime, and give them poor reviews if they refuse ("not a team player").  There are countless other practices designed to intentionally exploit employees.  While such practices may provide short-term benefits to the employer, I have to think they harm the business in the long run, by causing a high employee turnover rate and employees who hate the company and want it to fail. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 23:14, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::Looks like we're on the same side after all. I wasn't trying to imply that legal implies moral - sorry for the misunderstanding. I think that my use of the word ''legitimate'' wasn't very good because I meant it in a subjective way but I'm still struggling to articulate what I mean ("if it's not immoral then it's not immoral"?). I only entered that thread because of user:DeborahJay's use of the word "pocketed". Providers of capital definitely deserve to be rewarded for the risk they bear. 

::I think that we disagree on the scale of the problem. In my opinion (and limited experience), most business owners these days prefer to take care of their working-class employees, perhaps for the reasons you mentioned. But I think that you might disagree, right? [[User:Zain Ebrahim111|Zain Ebrahim]] ([[User talk:Zain Ebrahim111|talk]]) 10:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I'd say it's maybe 50-50.  Underfunded pension funds (which are guaranteed to collapse when the company does) are another way companies take advantage of their employees legally.  Ironically, companies which put their employees and customers first may be more profitable, in the long run, than those which put profits first.  Unfortunately, American companies, owned by stockholders who want to make a quick buck, and controlled by CEOs who are often replaced, have a very short-term outlook which prevents them from concerning themselves with what's good for the company in the long run.  Being from Detroit, I continue to be astonished by the car company's total lack of planning for the future.  It's like they never even considered that gas prices might go up.  They should have had fuel efficient cars designed and ready to build when oil prices rose, but just kept designing huge SUVs, instead, because that strategy maximized profits for the next quarter. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::Perhaps the car companies didn't expect demand for SUVs to change despite the increased oil price. Have Americans really changed their driving patterns or their preference for "gas-guzzlers" in response to higher oil prices? Here in South Africa (where petrol is fairly cheap), I'm ''starting'' to notice people trying to get rid of their expensive cars for cheaper and more fuel-efficient ones. Note that South African interest rates are currently very high with no signs of decreasing any time soon. In the US, petrol is very cheap and interest rates are low (with potential increases unlikely) so I don't think the car companies expected much of a change in demand. If demand did change much, could it be because of the downturn in the economy in general coupled with higher oil prices? [[User:Zain Ebrahim111|Zain Ebrahim]] ([[User talk:Zain Ebrahim111|talk]]) 16:27, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I don't think many people are yet abandoning their current large SUVs, but very few are going to buy a new SUV with gas prices where they (and the threat of going much higher).  This is what the car companies should have known.  It's not rocket science to know that when fuel prices go up, gas-guzzler sales will plummet.  So, if gas prices stay where they are or for the next 5-10 years, that will get most the gas-guzzlers off the road due to attrition.  If the gas price doubled, that might get people to retire their huge SUVs even earlier than planned. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 20:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

(Remove indent)Yeah, you're right. I guess the silver lining in all of this is that people will stop wasting fossil fuels and humanity may actually survive a few more decades than anticipated. [[User:Zain Ebrahim111|Zain Ebrahim]] ([[User talk:Zain Ebrahim111|talk]]) 00:37, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:Let's hope so... [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:04, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

== Phew ==

Thanks StuRat, I was almost expecting an op reaction, so it was nice to find your support message. Seems strange that people think the desks have fixed "staff" when most of us probably float around them all. Maybe locating properly to the so-called minor desks will help them and not dilute the main ones so much. Thanks again,  [[User:Julia Rossi|Julia Rossi]] ([[User talk:Julia Rossi|talk]]) 23:30, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

:You're welcome, and keep up the good work ! [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 23:16, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

::Re refdesk talk, the Ent desk -- has it ever been so famous?  : ) [[User:Julia Rossi|Julia Rossi]] ([[User talk:Julia Rossi|talk]]) 23:56, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:::...or ever so entertaining ?  Personally I think the Entertainment Desk is a good place to quanrantine all our Pokemon questions, to keep them from infecting the healthy Desks. :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 00:21, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

== Identifying internet bot ==

Hi, do you know how to identify [[Internet bot]]? For example an IP is editing/vandalizing some pages in a wiki, how will I understand if the IP is person or bot? '''[[User:Otolemur crassicaudatus|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Otolemur crassicaudatus</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Otolemur crassicaudatus|talk]]) 03:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
:Hi, I do understand about wikipedia bots. But sometimes it happen that IPs make edits in wikis which are actually not operated by humans. How to identify this phenomenon? How will I understand by seeing an IP address if it is a bot or not? '''[[User:Otolemur crassicaudatus|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Otolemur crassicaudatus</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Otolemur crassicaudatus|talk]]) 04:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

== Thanks ==

Thank you for removing the "troll" at the reference desks. It was in the way of everybody including me who wished to post and answer questions. I am glad to see Jump gyn blocked. I was checking the history. --[[User:Mayfare|Mayfare]] ([[User talk:Mayfare|talk]]) 01:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

:You're welcome.  I hope this is the last we see of that troll. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 02:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

::I wouldn't count on it... <!-- lol, you lot at the RD are so much fun! I'm on there almost every day, sometimes very obvious, but more often subtle and delicate in my questioning and giving of answers. I even tried to be constrictive with [[User:Jessica - N10248]] but alas I was checkuser blocked despite not vandalizing once during that accounts tenure. I have five different Ip's, and three of them are dynamic, so I could be anyone! BTW I see my edits at the RD regulars page were removed. Shame as I might stop once I get my recognition. Still, I really like your well though out answers. You and the other RD regulars often AGF and answer my questions, though gone are the days when one can ask about Avril Lavigne. --> [[User:ZigZap|ZigZap]] ([[User talk:ZigZap|talk]]) 13:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

== RD diagnoses ==

StuRat, I don't think Kainaw was suggesting that the OP couldn't tell the difference between a lodged popcorn kernel and a tooth.  He merely noted that identification of a new, hard lump in the mouth is not a sure thing, and what one thinks is a tooth isn't always.  (For the record, patients can and do mistake firmly lodged nuts and popcorn kernels for teeth, so Kainaw's remark wasn't completely off the wall.)  Kainaw correctly noted that a bony tumor could present that way as well &ndash; though he really oughtn't be offering alternate diagnoses for the symptoms given &ndash; and there are numerous other possible explanations.

I've removed both the question and the bulk of the answers, as we have no basis for concluding that the OP's symptoms are the result of a wisdom tooth eruption, and we ''all'' should know better than to glibly offer such a diagnosis.  [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 04:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:I'm disappointed that your first response here was to revert me without discussion, and to assert a consensus that was not apparent.  Before you choose to revert me again, can you ''please'' participate in the discussion at WT:RD? [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 04:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

::I have: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#Tooth_question].  I am very dissapointed that you removed the question without a consensus or even discussion, and then only added it to the discussion page as an afterthought.  As I've stated many times in the past, if you expect people to not revert your removals without consensus, then you need to offer the same courtesy and not delete questions without consensus.  And, in this case, it was quite obvious that this was a matter of dispute, based on the comments of myself and others at the question. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:::How do you see it as an 'afterthought'?  I removed the diagnosis, posted here to your talk page as rapidly as possible as a courtesy, and immediately after that posted a request for comment on WT:RD.  The entire process took sixteen minutes, and I did nothing in the intervening time.

:::Your understanding of the existing guidelines is flawed.  Where there is a reasonable apprehension that a question seeks medical advice, the question (and answers) should not be restored ''until'' there is a consensus to do so.  If you are certain that your position is correct, then please wait for a ''real'' consensus to be established at WT:RD&mdash;the question will be restored in due time.

:::I will be asking at AN/I for a neutral admin to step in, since you seem bent on edit warring in contravention of the guidelines. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 05:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

::::It takes two to edit war, and I would say the person who first did the removal without consensus is the one starting the edit war, and that would be you.  I'm also guessing that any guideline that says that anyone can unilaterally remove questions but nobody can restore them without a consensus was created in the same way (added without consensus, but with removal of that guideline requiring a consensus). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 05:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

StuRat, it is established convention to remove questions seeking medical advice and the consensus at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive457#Edit war over tooth advice on the Ref Desk|AN/I]] is that TenOfAllTrades’s action was correct. —[[User:TravisTX|<span style="font-family:Georgia; color:#2F335F;">Travis</span>]][[User_talk:TravisTX|<span style="color:#888888; font-size:small;"><sup>talk</sup></span>]] 13:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:However, the consensus at the Ref Desk talk page and at the question itself is that it's not a question seeking a medical diagnosis or advice.  It wasn't appropriate for Ten to bypass the consensus-building process at the Ref Desk and take it to AN/I. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 14:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

::I must disagree with your analysis of the discussion at WT:RD. The OP does not state that a new tooth has erupted or that a dentist has said that a new tooth is growing, therefore, we cannot assume that it is actually a tooth and not something else. —[[User:TravisTX|<span style="font-family:Georgia; color:#2F335F;">Travis</span>]][[User_talk:TravisTX|<span style="color:#888888; font-size:small;"><sup>talk</sup></span>]] 14:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:::Ah, so you're going with the absurd suggestion that the OP can't properly identify a tooth.  I will trust that the OP isn't an idiot. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 15:02, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:::Travis, when answering, we have to assume that it is, in fact, a tooth. Things would get out of hand pretty quickly if we continuously second guessed the premises to our OPs' questions. [[Special:Contributions/Zain Ebrahim111|Zain Ebrahim]] ([[User talk:Zain Ebrahim111|talk]]) 15:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

::::You two are assuming that a tooth has erupted or has otherwise been positively identified. All I’m saying is that the OP did not make it clear and that a lump under the gum is not necessarily a tooth. The OP wrote, “is growing a new tooth,” not, “had a new tooth come in.” —[[User:TravisTX|<span style="font-family:Georgia; color:#2F335F;">Travis</span>]][[User_talk:TravisTX|<span style="color:#888888; font-size:small;"><sup>talk</sup></span>]] 15:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

::::On the other hand, now that the OP [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk&oldid=228774146&diff=228784456 has clarified] his question, the point appears to be moot. Cheers —[[User:TravisTX|<span style="font-family:Georgia; color:#2F335F;">Travis</span>]][[User_talk:TravisTX|<span style="color:#888888; font-size:small;"><sup>talk</sup></span>]] 16:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

== Heady header ==

The header you added at the RD talk page seems a bit excessive. We're trying to reach consensus and that type of thing won't really help. Besides, on talk pages (like this one :) ), the OPs' opinions are refected in the headers. Just a thought, [[Special:Contributions/Zain Ebrahim111|Zain Ebrahim]] ([[User talk:Zain Ebrahim111|talk]]) 13:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:Had I added a header that said "Nonconsensus deletionists at it again", then I'd agree.  However, my "Tooth question" header is completely neutral, while "Tooth advice" was not, and was completely false in that no advice of any type was solicited by the OP (had they asked if the tooth should be pulled, then that would be an advice question).  Opinionated headers should be avoided, as they tend to make the situation worse.  I also draw a distinction between user talk pages and article talk pages, where more effort should be made to remain neutral. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 13:55, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

== This is crazy?! ==

I am a new editor.  I saw what user:TenOfTrades done and its extremely unethical.  He has acted very manipulatively, and anybody new and joining the debate would be lead straight into a fed and baited conclusion.  When you left a note on my talk page, I thought you were going to disagree with me, but I'm glad you defended our merits.  We are right, however depending on the choice of other editors who opine, we could very well find ourselves in the minority.  I have been trying to encourage people to let this issue die, since its so obfuscated and its not worth bringing to attention how TenOfTrades has sidestepped the boundary of ethics to manipulate the POV in such a way that uses cheap tricks to "win" the fallacious argument that ultimately we're either forced to engage in or walk away from.  I will continue this fight, for the sake of principle and for the sake of wikipedia only, if you do.  However, if you think it will be drag out and will be a dirty fight, then I recommend we just keep an eye on the questionable user and make sure he doesn't do this often.  Hopefully, he's not doing it intentionally.  He has a commendable edit history, so I doubt he's trying to sabotage his good name.  The discussion is probably over his head, and he is not quite ready to engage in formal, civil debates, while handling himself ethically. [[User:Sentriclecub|Sentriclecub]] ([[User talk:Sentriclecub|talk]]) 15:15, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

This is not a positive environment for encouraging new editors to be contributing to wikipedia.  I'm a college grad, very educated, and am rethinking my place here.

:I agree completely.  Removing a post is like a slap in the face, especially to newbies, and should only be done under extreme circumstances.  There are more Ref Desk users who agree with this, but, unfortunatley, those who disagree are Admins and tend to ignore the will of the majority.  Still, if we stick together and fight such unilateral actions, we can prevent things from getting even worse.  I hope you'll stick around. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 15:27, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

::In the lawsuit-happy climate of the United States, we must err on the side of caution when it comes to anything that could be perceived as medical, legal, financial, or any other advice which could easily lead to litigation. —[[User:TravisTX|<span style="font-family:Georgia; color:#2F335F;">Travis</span>]][[User_talk:TravisTX|<span style="color:#888888; font-size:small;"><sup>talk</sup></span>]] 15:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:TenOfAllTrades#Clearifaction_and_a_Thank-You 20 minutes before travis' response][http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATenOfAllTrades&diff=228827990&oldid=228618075][http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATenOfAllTrades&diff=228826078&oldid=228618075][http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:TenOfAllTrades&diff=prev&oldid=228827499] this is not about opposing viewpoints between whether or not to err on the side of caution.  All 6 of us believe uniformly that it is very commendable of wikipedia to have respect for the medical community by having a large "gray area" and always sticking to answers that are completely [[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science&diff=prev&oldid=228572228 black]].  The discussion was about another matter, which for those who don't see it, I'm not involved. [[User:Sentriclecub|Sentriclecub]] ([[User talk:Sentriclecub|talk]]) 16:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:::I can't imagine any way the question asked and answers given could possibly lead to Wikipedia losing a lawsuit.  On the other hand, we routinely answer questions on explosives and such that could easily lead to that. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually i can see how [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science&diff=prev&oldid=228572228 this "black" answer alone] is not treating his question medically, but the followups '''after my answer''' undermined any chance of not relooking at the question with a monstrous slanted perception. 

The illusory effect lies with comparing the question to my answer, vs comparing the question to the subsequent fallouts.  The question didn't change, but put into the new thread which developed, is undeniably a "medical issue", which should then be deleted.  For those whose intelligence[http://www.eskimo.com/~miyaguch/titan.html (12+ outta 24)] manifests itself in alalogies, then I can convey my point this way.

[http://listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/same-color-illusion.png Look at this graphic.]

The question along with my succinct answer was a "black square" but kineua's response minutes later was the green can.

Hope some of you liked the analogy method of explanation, and will check out this maze puzzle[http://www.urticator.net/maze/] for more brain workouts. [[User:Sentriclecub|Sentriclecub]] ([[User talk:Sentriclecub|talk]]) 16:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


== Thanks for saving pages ==

Thank you for saving pages about various Linux distributions from blatant deleting. I am sick of these "Delete because of non-notability" dictators. [[User:Megaribi|Megaribi]] ([[User talk:Megaribi|talk]]) 10:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

== Personal attacks at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alinex]] ==

Please refrain from [[WP:personal attacks|personal attacks]] like the one you posted at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alinex]]. The editor in question may be very mistaken, but it's best to [[WP:assume good faith|assume good faith]] to prevent heated disputes. --[[User:Explodicle|<span style="background:Silver;color:Black;letter-spacing:2pt">Explodicle</span>]] <span style="font-size:x-small;">([[User talk:Explodicle|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Explodicle|C]])</span> 18:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

== Something like that, yes ==

I didn't mean to evade the questions you asked at the end of your response to [[WP:RD/S#Inverse relationship between length of work shift and task performance, employee health|my Science Ref Desk query]], but as I wrote initially, I can't provide further details. The situation is characteristic of assignments on a military base, yes. I appreciate your input, [[User:StuRat|StuRat]], thanks. ''-- [[User:Deborahjay|Deborahjay]] ([[User talk:Deborahjay|talk]]) 19:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)''

:OK, I don't want you to tell me, if you'd have to kill me afterwards. :-)  My experience as an instructor (often working long hours, and sometimes at defense contractors) is purely anecdotal, so I guess you'll need others to point you toward the studies you seek. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 01:42, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

== Merry Christmas! ==

<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:blue; background-color:AliceBlue; border-width:1px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks"><!--  Commented out: [[Image:ChristmasTree.jpg|150x100px|left]] -->

<span style="font-family:terminal;">[[User:Flaming|flaming]][[User talk:Flaming|lawyer]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Flaming|c]]</sup><small>[[User:CheeseDreams|never]][[User:-Ril-|for]][[User:Account created to post on Reference Desk|get]]</small></span> is wishing you a [[get hitched|Merry]] [[Christmas]]! This greeting (and season) promotes [[Wikipedia:WikiLove|WikiLove]] and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a [[Christmas|Merry Christmas]], whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Don't eat yellow snow!  <br /> 

Spread the holiday cheer by adding {{[[WP:SUBST|subst]]:[[User:Flaminglawyer/MerryChristmas!|User:Flaming/MC2008]]}} to their talk page with a friendly message.
</div>

:Thanks, and I certainly will consider giving gifts to those I've had disagreements with in the past...at least if I can find that box of exploding candy canes. :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:18, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

::and you can include my list. I found that very sin-spiring.  [[Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas|Have yourself a merry little Christmas]] ti-ime. (I trust you to think parody, SR.) : )) from   [[User:Julia Rossi|Julia Rossi]] ([[User talk:Julia Rossi|talk]]) 07:01, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

:::Thanks.  Have you heard my version of Winter Wonderland ?

 In the winter we can build a snowman,
 then some kids 'll come and kick it down,
 we'll ask 'em if they did it, they'll say "no man",
 then we'll rub their faces in the ground.

 Then we'll sit, and perspire,
 as we set their coats on fire,
 and we'll make 'em walk home,
 when it's twenty below...

 Walking through a winter wonderland ! [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 15:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

::::<applause> Respek! Be sure to put out the CD in time for next Christmas and I want one!  : ))  [[User:Julia Rossi|Julia Rossi]] ([[User talk:Julia Rossi|talk]]) 22:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

:::::I'll put it out on a [[flash drive]], made especially for flashers. :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 02:48, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

== Hope you don't mind... ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:AndonicO/Talkpage_header&diff=258719136&oldid=237183532 This.] To be honest, I'd very much like to see said infomercial. :) · [[User:AO|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman;color:Black;">'''A'''''ndonic'''''O'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:AO|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman;color:Navy;">'''''Engage.'''''</span>]]</sup> 03:50, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

:Yea, that infomercial was pretty funny alright, right up there with the [[Flowbee]] and hair in a spray paint can. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 05:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

== new [[WP:RDREG]] userbox ==
<div style="float:right">{{WP:RD regulars/box|no}}</div>
The box to the right is the newly created userbox for all [[WP:RDREG|RefDesk regulars]]. Since you are an RD regular, you are receiving this notice to remind you to ''put this box on your userpage!'' (but when you do, don't include the |no. Just say <tt><nowiki>{{</nowiki>WP:RD regulars/box}}</tt> ) This adds you to [[:Category:RD regulars]], which is a must. So please, add it. Don't worry, no more spam after this - just check [[WP:RDREG]] for updates, news, etc. <span style="font-family:terminal;">[[User:Flaming|flaming]][[User talk:Flaming|lawye]][[User:-Ril-|r]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Flaming|c]]</sup></span> 07:38, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

:I added it, thanks ! [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 14:58, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

==You maybe interested in the Article Rescue Squadron==

{| cellpadding=5 style="border: thin solid red; background-color: white"

|-

|[[File:Barnstar search rescue.png|70px]]

|valign=top|Hello, StuRat. Based on the templates on your talk page,  please consider joining the [[Wikipedia:Article_Rescue_Squadron|Article Rescue Squadron]]. Rescue Squadron members are focused on rescuing articles for deletion, that might otherwise be lost forever. I think you will find our project matches your vision of Wikipedia. You can join [[Wikipedia:Article_Rescue_Squadron/Members#All_Members|>> here <<]]. 

[[User:Ikip|Ikip]] ([[User talk:Ikip|talk]]) 18:14, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

|} <!--Template based on Template:WPSPAM-invite-n, one of the 260 Category:WikiProject invitation templates -->

:Sounds interesting.  But how do you keep an AfD article from being deleted mid-improvement ?  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 12:17, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
::That depends if it is speedy delete or regular delete (Afd), if it is speedy delete you can add <nowiki>{{hangon}}</nowiki>, if it is a  regular delete (Afd), you can add <nowiki>{{rescue}}</nowiki>. the rescue tag alerts squadron members to come and help you complete the article, by adding well referenced sources.  
::But as PC PRO journalist Dick Pountain found: 
:::"For an example of the dark side [of Web 2.0] running out of control, though, check out Wikipedia...In the NYRB article Baker explains how Wikipedia continually struggles to repel vandalisation...but as a result is now ruled by bands of vigilantes who delete all new material without mercy or insight. This is such a strong claim that it needed checking, so I decided to attempt an edit myself…I wrote a roughly 100-word potted history of [The Political Quarterly]… within five minutes I received a message to the effect that this entry has no content…and has been put up for "express deletion…It seems Wikipedia has completed the journey by arriving at an online equivalent of the midnight door-knock and the book bonfire".[http://www.pcpro.co.uk/columns/204999/idealog.html] 
::See also [[Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:Reevaluation#Journalists]], and [[User:I'm Spartacus!/Why I hate Speedy Deleters]]
::If an article is deleted, you have several avenues of recourse available: [[User:Ikip/AfD]]
::I hope I (over) answered your question. Please message me on my talk page, if you wish to continue this conversation. [[User:Ikip|Ikip]] ([[User talk:Ikip|talk]]) 18:14, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

== Oh you do trot them out ==

Egyptian pigs can't fly (and never will now) but at least one Mexican pig flu. [[User:Spinningspark|'''<span style="background:#FFF090;color:#00C000">Sp<span style="background:#FFF0A0;color:#80C000">in<span style="color:#C08000">ni</span></span><span style="color:#C00000">ng</span></span><span style="color:#2820F0">Spark</span>''']] 18:21, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

:I wonder if the swine flu outbreak is due to the record amounts of pork in the US budget ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:13, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

== Wow ==

I'm surprised that someone hasn't asked you to archive your talk page. I'm not asking, just that I don't think mine was this long when someone asked me to archive. Anyway I left two new responses to your Blu-Ray question (the first one). Basically the summary answer is your best bet IMHO is to do a software rip in Windows with AnyDVD HD (perhaps accessory tools depending on precisely what you want your output to be, e.g. MKV). You can then probably playback with free players+codecs including in Linux generally without problem (the good thing is once it's ripped, if you aren't using some commercial player then if it works now it'll likely work 5 years from now). You may not have menus and the audio may not be full quality but normal playback should be fine. That option should be EUR79.99 for a 2 year subscription (hopefully the FLOSS will have caught up by then). You may want to try Any DVD HD first (since it has a free trial) and see if it works as you expect. (Although I also noticed they're having a 20% discount until May 10th so if you're sure it's what you want). The main limitation/s here (well other then being Windows only but I don't think that can be helped at the moment) is that you may have to rip every time and if it doesn't work well you'll have to wait (well this can be true with commercial software players as well). [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 20:24, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

:Thanks for the info.  80 Euros is a bit steep.  Add to that the cost of a new 1080 monitor or TV, the price for the Blu-Ray drive, the price of bigger flash drives on which to store the movies temporarily, and the $4 a month Netflix fee for Blu-Ray access, and this will end up costing me over a thousand dollars, to watch only slightly better videos.  (The only difference I've really seen is in reading tiny credits.)  So, I think I'll wait and stick with normal DVDs for now.  Hopefully there will be a free solution soon. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 21:25, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

== Medieval stuff ==

Hey StuRat, the "church talk" thread was archived on the RD, but if you want to keep the discussion going, we could start a new topic (since we kind of steered away from the original point anyway). I've also been translating Pope Innocent's letter about translating the Bible into French, I guess I'll stick it in my user page somewhere. [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] ([[User talk:Adam Bishop|talk]]) 02:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

:Thanks.  Let me know when the translation's done and I'll take a look. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 01:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

::Okay, [[wikisource:Cum ex injuncto (1199)]] has the translation, and a link to the Latin original too. That letter turned out to be more concerned with unauthorized preaching than unauthorized translations, though. I found that there is also a letter from Gregory VII in 1079 that talks about Bible translations too, so I'm working on that. I'm also going to add more info about medieval [[Bible translations]] (or maybe as a new article). [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] ([[User talk:Adam Bishop|talk]]) 15:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

:::Thanks ! [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 11:22, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

::::If you're still interested, I've just finished a new [[Bible translations in the Middle Ages]] article. [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] ([[User talk:Adam Bishop|talk]]) 21:03, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

:::::OK, thanks, I'll take a look. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 14:51, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

== Changing titles of Ref Desk questions ==

I see, OK, I will keep that in mind. Thank you. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 13:43, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

:You're welcome. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 13:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
==personal RFC on sneeky edit==
http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Planetary_habitability&diff=311665773&oldid=311665338 <br />
I'm curious to know, do you consider this kind of edit sneeky and/or not encyclopedic??<br />[[User:GabrielVelasquez|GabrielVelasquez]] ([[User talk:GabrielVelasquez|talk]]) 15:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

:Removing a discussion tag in the middle of the discussion ?  I suppose that's bad, but why are you asking me ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:08, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

== Trauma ==

There are good reasons not to offer medical advice to this questioner. You may consider it best to redact your suggestion about desensitization therapy.[[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 15:37, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

:I made no such suggestion.  I merely mentioned that this is one option a therapist might consider. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

== Belated reply for Jan RD discussion ==

Just to let you know, I came across this [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2009 January 2#What if Girl fakes Rape?]] when looking for something else and left a reply [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FArchives%2FMiscellaneous%2F2009_January_2&action=historysubmit&diff=322237884&oldid=262803117]. I'm not asking that you reply simply thought you might like to know [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 22:58, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

:Thanks. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 15:25, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

== Reference Desk archiving interval ==

There's a discussion running on the [[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk#Page length|RD talk page]] about decreasing the archiving and transclusion thresholds to reduce the page size, perhaps to as few as four days.  I don't care one way or the other, but I'd like to make sure any consensus includes input from some long-time regulars, so I'm dropping this note on the talk pages of a few that pop to mind.  (I hope no one feels this is improper canvassing.) —[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 01:19, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

:Thanks.  I can't see how it could be "improper canvassing" as I'm on the fence on this issue myself.  I certainly suffer from long pages as much as anyone, having a very old Windows 98 computer.  On the other hand, I don't like having questions archived before they are fully resolved, either. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 15:28, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

== REFDESK answer ==

Hello. I am just writing to note that I copied the answers from the refdesk to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:History_of_ferrous_metallurgy#Identifying_iron_ore_in_antiquity here], where I first asked the question. Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/Theseeker4|<span style="color:forestgreen;">'''The'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User:Theseeker4|<span style="color:#0000C0;">'''Seeker&nbsp;4'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Theseeker4|<span style="color:#CC7722; font-family:Papyrus;">''Talk''</span>]] 15:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

:You're quite welcome, glad I could help. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 15:16, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

== US debt levels ==

I noticed some of your comments about the precarious financial situation the US is in, and I think I agree with your assessment of the severity of the situation, but I am unsure what to do to best shield myself from what I perceive as a coming collapse (probably in the form of hyper inflation).  I was wondering if you have any ideas, and also if you would be up for discussing this issue, or pointing me to people who do have the same view and would be able to provide some insights.  Regards [[User:XM|XM]] ([[User talk:XM|talk]]) 01:27, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

:I think an economic collapse is now inevitable, but perhaps not for several decades.  I don't think hyperinflation is all that likely, though, as that typically results from "printing money".  That is, printing excessive quantities of money to pay off debts.  I don't think the US is stupid enough to do that.  However, I'm beginning to think that the US will eventually need to default on it's debts, meaning that they will, at some point, announce that they have no intention of repaying those financial obligations.  Much like a bankruptcy, it may be a bitter pill to swallow, but could be good economically, in the long run, if it makes people and countries less likely to loan money to the US and if the US then learns to live within it's means, as a result.  

:Of course, if you hold US bonds or treasury notes, this would be a disaster for you.  To protect yourself I'd stick with investments with inherent value.  Gold is one option, but any commodity is probably good, as those would still have value in a total economic collapse.  If hyperinflation does happen, then dollars may be useless, but bags of wheat will still have value.  I'd avoid investing in luxury items, though, as few may be able to afford them at some point in the future.  And diamonds, in particular, are a poor investment as they are currently overvalued and prices may suddenly collapse once high quality artificial diamonds flood the market.

:Also, developing nations may do well, since they would be less likely to be pulled down by financial links with the US.  So, investing in basic commodities in the developing world might be the best overall strategy.  What do you think ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 03:00, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

==[[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|Speedy deletion]] nomination of [[:Life imitating art]]==
[[Image:Ambox warning_pn.svg|48px|left]] A tag has been placed on [[:Life imitating art]] requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under [[WP:CSD#A1|section A1 of the criteria for speedy deletion]], because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see [[Wikipedia:Stub#Essential information about stubs|Wikipedia:Stub]] for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on [[Wikipedia:Notability|notable]] subjects and should provide references to [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] that [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verify]] their content. You may wish to consider using a Wizard to help you create articles - see the [[Wikipedia:Article wizard2.0|Article Wizard]]. 

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding <code>{{tl|hangon}}</code> to '''the top of [[:Life imitating art|the page that has been nominated for deletion]]''' (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on '''[[Talk:Life imitating art|the talk page]]''' explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for ''speedy'' deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact [[:Category:Wikipedia administrators who will provide copies of deleted articles|one of these admins]] to request that they  [[Wikipedia:Userfication#Userfication_of_deleted_content|userfy]] the page or have a copy emailed to you. <!-- Template:Db-nocontext-notice --> <!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom --> [[User:Mootros|Mootros]] ([[User talk:Mootros|talk]]) 06:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|AfD]] nomination of [[Life imitating art]] ==
[[File:Ambox warning pn.svg|left|48px|]]An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for [[Wikipedia:Deletion process|deletion]]. The nominated article is [[Life imitating art]]. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also [[Wikipedia:Notability]] and "[[WP:NOT|What Wikipedia is not]]").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion(s) by adding your comments to [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Life imitating art]]. Please be sure to [[WP:SIG|sign your comments]] with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>).

You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the [[WP:AfD|articles for deletion]] template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate.

'''Please note:''' This is an automatic notification by a [[WP:BOT|bot]]. I have nothing to do with this article or the deletion nomination, and can't do anything about it. --[[User:Erwin85Bot|Erwin85Bot]] ([[User talk:Erwin85Bot|talk]]) 01:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

== Science Ref Desk ==

Hi. I recently posted a question on the science reference desk(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#Bubbles) which you seemed to know the answer to, but if you don't mind I would like to clarify that I understood the explanation. The question was why bubbles form when a liquid under pressure, like an unopened can of coke, suddenly has the pressure released. Someone mentioned that the high pressure of the gas above the liquid increases the liquid's pressure, which inhibits bubbles from forming. If that's the correct explanation (as you vouched it was), is it true that bubble may not form below a certain depth, and that if the pressure were relieved slowly, bubbles would first form at the surface? Or did I misunderstand the explanation? Thanks! [[Special:Contributions/173.179.59.66|173.179.59.66]] ([[User talk:173.179.59.66|talk]]) 23:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

:No, I would expect that relieving the pressure slowly would cause bubbles to form more slowly, but uniformly, because the pressure change will move almost instantly throughout the bottle (the speed at which a pressure wave moves is probably around the speed of sound). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 00:31, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

::But doesn't pressure increase with increasing depth? I would have thought that, while the surface may be at a low enough pressure to allow for bubble formation, the lower portions of the liquid would remain bubble-less. Or perhaps I'm completely missing the concept of bubble formation (which I suspect I am)... [[Special:Contributions/173.179.59.66|173.179.59.66]] ([[User talk:173.179.59.66|talk]]) 00:38, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

:::Pressure does increase with depth, but the depth of a bottle of soda is so little it hardly makes any difference.  Now, if you had a 100 foot tall bottle of pop, you probably would see an effect like that. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 00:42, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

::::Alright cool, but I ''am'' right with in thinking that it's the liquid's pressure which prevents the bubbles from forming, right? [[Special:Contributions/173.179.59.66|173.179.59.66]] ([[User talk:173.179.59.66|talk]]) 03:20, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::Yes, that's correct. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 11:22, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

::::::Great, thanks a lot. [[Special:Contributions/173.179.59.66|173.179.59.66]] ([[User talk:173.179.59.66|talk]]) 13:41, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

==[[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities]]==
What's happening with [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities]]?  [[User:Woogee|Woogee]] ([[User talk:Woogee|talk]]) 05:49, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

:I was editing when my computer locked up.  I rebooted and then tried to finish my edit, but it apparently deleted the rest of the page, somehow.  I went to revert it, but FiggyBee beat me to it. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 05:52, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

== Sorry ... ==

... about [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language&diff=prev&oldid=351775799 this]. Fixed three minutes later. I hadn't even noticed hitting the button. Maybe I'm not fit for rollback. ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 14:14, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

:Thanks for restoring it. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 14:26, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

==I took out an edit?==
But it was only a sub-heading. Nonetheless, I'll keep it in mind.[[Special:Contributions/70.54.181.70|70.54.181.70]] ([[User talk:70.54.181.70|talk]]) 17:00, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

== Language issues on the Reference Desk ==

Hey StuRat!  I was annoyed by Richardrj's dismissive response to your question [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous#pocket_money_in_india here]. After reading all of the answers, you can see that the OP meant what Americans would call "allowance" when he/she referred to "pocket money".  But this sense of the term is clearly British, so since we're Americans, it's no wonder we need clarification on the questioner's intent.  By dismissing you, Richardrj discouraged you from helping with this particular question.  Richardrj's response implies that he understands that this term is not part of your national vocabulary.  As a RefDesk regular, he no doubt knows that you are American.  I see this as part of a pattern among certain British contributors of dismissing American English as a legitimate variety of English.  See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2010_March_5#Ownership_of_Language this exchange], which left me fuming.  I admit that my use of "unimportant" was unfortunate in my last comment there.  I wonder what you think of this and whether you think it is worth bringing up on the RefDesk Talk page?
Best wishes, [[User:Marco polo|Marco polo]] ([[User talk:Marco polo|talk]]) 19:37, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

:Thanks for your support !  I'm not upset, though.  When the Brits call US English inferior to British English (which they call "International English"), I find it rather silly, but not particularly insulting.  Hey, we hear them as all a bunch of effeminate speakers, right ?  I don't think taking it to the talk page is warranted, and would probably just cause a needless fight.  I'll continue to ask for, or provide, translations where I see people using Britspeak, though.  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 20:01, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

== Your vote on the [[List of food products]] article  ==

No, I'm not mistaken you have not voted yet :-} That is why I'm dropping this note to encourage that you will. I hope it's one of support but if its not then you are still entitled to your opinion. As for me it is essential to my understanding of why nutrition facts are printed on the food product label in the first place. Balanced meals which conform to specific diet plans can only be made by combining more than one food product in the right portion with other food products to meet such stringent criteria as a diet plan provides. Please vote '''KEEP''' and save the List of food products article for posterity and everyone else. [[Special:Contributions/71.100.8.49|71.100.8.49]] ([[User talk:71.100.8.49|talk]]) 11:00, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

== fortran ==

Nothing wrong with fortran for numerical computation, but jeez, man, I think you'd enjoy programming a lot more if you branched out into other languages for other purposes.  You might also like [[Project Euler]].  ;-) [[Special:Contributions/69.228.170.24|69.228.170.24]] ([[User talk:69.228.170.24|talk]]) 20:21, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

:If you're talking about my recent Math Ref Desk programs, those both are for numerical computation.  It's not like I was creating a bouncing ball animation or something. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 22:25, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

::Well I'd say they were combinatorial rather than numerical.  Anyway, whatever works for you is great.  But it's often possible to write 3 lines of a higher level language instead of 50 lines of fortran (which is relatively low level by today's standards). [[Special:Contributions/69.228.170.24|69.228.170.24]] ([[User talk:69.228.170.24|talk]]) 00:21, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

:::Someone did rewrite my recursive Fortran program as a "C++ metaprogram", but the output looks horrid. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 02:25, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

::::Hehehe, you do realize that was sort of a joke (and a funny one).  The person implemented the recursion in the C++ type system so that the expanded list came out as a compiler error message. [[Special:Contributions/69.228.170.24|69.228.170.24]] ([[User talk:69.228.170.24|talk]]) 02:42, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

:::::I saw the error, buy just thought it was a warning they ignored. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 11:14, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

::::::I added a Haskell example. [[Special:Contributions/69.228.170.24|69.228.170.24]] ([[User talk:69.228.170.24|talk]]) 09:11, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

:::::::OK, I'll take a look. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 10:38, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

==Merging article Bracelet to Necklace (combinatorics)==
I'm recommending that the article on [[Bracelet (combinatorics)]] be merged into [[Necklace (combinatorics)]].

I saw that you had previously edited one (or both) of these article.  You're invited to participate in the discussion here: [[Talk:Necklace (combinatorics)]].

Thanks, <span style="white-space:nowrap;"><b>[[User:Justin W Smith|Justin W Smith]]</b> <i><sup>[[User talk:Justin W Smith|talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Justin W Smith|stalk]]</sub></i></span> 15:12, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

== You are now a Reviewer ==

[[File:Wikipedia Reviewer.svg|right|130px]]
Hello. Your account has been granted the "{{mono|reviewer}}" userright, allowing you to [[WP:Reviewing|review other users' edits]] on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, is currently undergoing a [[WP:Pending changes|two-month trial]] scheduled to end 15 August 2010.

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not [[wp:autoconfirmed|autoconfirmed]] to articles placed under pending changes. Pending changes is applied to only [[Special:StablePages|a small number of articles]], similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial. The list of articles with pending changes awaiting review is located at [[Special:OldReviewedPages]].

When reviewing, edits should be accepted if they are not obvious [[WP:VAND|vandalism]] or [[WP:BLP|BLP violations]], and not clearly problematic in light of the reason given for protection (see [[Wikipedia:Reviewing process]]). More detailed documentation and guidelines can be found [[WP:Pending changes|here]].

If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. <!-- Template:Reviewer-notice --> [[User:Courcelles|Courcelles]] ([[User talk:Courcelles|talk]]) 17:37, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

==Funding bias==
Hi, based on our conversation last April at [[Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Science/2010 April 14#Research influenced by funding source]], I finally created a stub article called [[funding bias]]. Thanks for the comments you made. There seems to be a wealth of peer-reviewed literature on this topic. ~[[User:Amatulic|Amatulić]] <small>([[User talk:Amatulic#top|talk]])</small> 21:26, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

:Hasn't been a stub for a while. Looks like you took a summer break. Welcome back. ~[[User:Amatulic|Amatulić]] <small>([[User talk:Amatulic#top|talk]])</small> 18:48, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

::Thanks, glad to see we have a nice article starting to take shape. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:00, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

== Fecal anthropology article ==

Hi.  I'm trying to fix the [[fecal anthropology]] article which you started.  I have a problem with it because I do not believe that this is a strong enough specialty within archaeology to be a whole article, and I have never heard of it referred to by this name.  Did you have a particular reason for naming the article as you did?  Or are you aware of an article that this might be a good fit as a subsection of?  thanks!  [[Special:Contributions/174.30.246.212|174.30.246.212]] ([[User talk:174.30.246.212|talk]]) 05:00, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

== ArbCom elections? ==

I didn't realize that Arbcom elections had come up [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2010/Candidates] - I was curious if you have any ideas regarding who are the best candidates for inclusionism and transparency?  (I also asked [[User:Cyclopia]] and he had some useful answers if you're interested) [[User:Wnt|Wnt]] ([[User talk:Wnt|talk]]) 17:37, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

:I don't have much time to investigate that right now, unfortunately, but thanks for letting me know. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

== Chat on the Ref Desk ==

Are you cool if I skim the discussion of Viennese Waltz's comment off to the talk page (as in, everything after VW's comment)? I'm looking at it and thinking how it might look to the OP! Seems like you'd be the only one with a legitimate gripe if I do, so I'd like to check first. [[Special:Contributions/86.164.31.131|86.164.31.131]] ([[User talk:86.164.31.131|talk]]) 20:46, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

:I think I'd prefer one of those collapse boxes, as sending anything to the talk page ensures endless discussion, and I'd rather end the thread now. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 20:48, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

::Cool beans, consider it done. [[Special:Contributions/86.164.31.131|86.164.31.131]] ([[User talk:86.164.31.131|talk]]) 21:10, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

:::Thanks. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 21:27, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
==Talkback==
{{talkback|WP:RD/C|Join a Facebook network: confirmation email|ts=17:46, 8 December 2010 (UTC)}}

==Chinese name stuff==
Hey Sturat! I found the Chinese name of Beltway 8 at [[Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Chinese_questions]] [[User:WhisperToMe|WhisperToMe]] ([[User talk:WhisperToMe|talk]]) 01:55, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

== Reference Desk Removals ==

[[user:Baseball Bugs]] has decided to remove a question, including your response, [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science&diff=prev&oldid=406862661 here].  [[user:Mwalcoff]] has deleted a question, including your response, [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous&diff=prev&oldid=406818497 here].  Both removals may be discussed on the Reference desk talk page, [[Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#Garbage_disposal|here]] and [[Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#Deleted_question|here]], respectively. [[User:Buddy431|Buddy431]] ([[User talk:Buddy431|talk]]) 05:00, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

:Thanks for letting me know, I appreciate it. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 05:08, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

== Door opening and closing ==

I was back on AOL, and I heard [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Computing/2011_March_3#Why_do_I_hear_a_door_closing.3F the sound] again. This confirms it.[[User:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:Green;">Vchimpanzee</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[User talk:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color: orange"> talk</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Vchimpanzee|<span style="color: purple">contributions</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' 22:36, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

:Good.  Glad I could help. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 06:02, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

::The weird thing is that today I was signed in to my other AOL email account, which actually ends in "aim.com", and never heard any doors. Maybe the time of day was different and no one was there.[[User:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:Green;">Vchimpanzee</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[User talk:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color: orange"> talk</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Vchimpanzee|<span style="color: purple">contributions</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' 17:54, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

:::Could be.  Also, I'd expect quite a bit of variation on how many friends come and go even at the same time each day. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 23:46, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

== Making farmland out of desert[[User:Mickey 63|Mickey 63]] ([[User talk:Mickey 63|talk]]) 15:09, 19 March 2011 (UTC) ==

Hello StuRat I'm mickey 63 please excuse me if I get the etiquette wrong I'm new to this type of discussion. I asked a question yesterday(18 March)if it was possible to transform desert into arable farmland,I received various answers one of which was interesting because it goes along with my own train of thought.Firstly, to construct a man made hole in a suitable place and then tow an iceberg to that place to make a lake.You would of course need a canal system to get the iceberg to the hole and for distribution,but is it possible?[[User:Mickey 63|Mickey 63]] ([[User talk:Mickey 63|talk]]) 15:09, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

:No, for several reasons:

:1) Iceberg would melt before you could get it there.

:2) Water would soon evaporate and need to be replenished.

:3) Canal would have to be huge, and if you had a huge canal, water would flow into the hole without the iceberg.

:A better approach is to redirect part of a river into a natural depression, like the [[Colorado River]] into [[Death Valley]]. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:41, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Mathematics/2011 March 19#Calculating one variable from six others]] ==

To - [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat|talk]]).  Hello.  I wanted to thank you for all of your help with my questions on the Math Help Desk (about the formulas for metabolism and body age, etc., that you were able to figure out from the body measurement variables).  I very much appreciate all the time and effort you put into that;  I also appreciate your taking the time to explain to me all of the steps so clearly.  I am going to review all of your math explanations in more detail.  I may get back to you with some minor follow-up questions, if that's OK.  In the meanwhile, though, I wanted to express my appreciation.  Many thanks!  Your insight was invaluable ... and exactly what I was looking for.  Thank you!   ([[User:Joseph A. Spadaro|Joseph A. Spadaro]] ([[User talk:Joseph A. Spadaro#top|talk]]) 20:16, 22 March 2011 (UTC))

: You're welcome.  Glad I could help. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 21:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

: Here's a permalink, BTW: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Mathematics/2011_March_19#Calculating_one_variable_from_six_others]. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 00:05, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

::  Thanks.  I'd like to ask you a follow-up question to this issue, if I may.  First of all, thanks for all your help so far.  Second of all, thanks also for congratulating me on the weight loss.  I had to laugh at that because, in the year 2010, I actually lost 30 pounds or so.  This data is only from the start of the new year in 2011 ... so the weight loss of 5 pounds or so is only a drop in the bucket, in my mind.  Thanks for the congrats, though.  Third of all, my follow-up question is this.  I essentially understand most of what you stated throughout the thread.  However, I am confused as to where did you come up with the actual decimal point results for some of the data?  For example, if the Visceral Fat Level (VFL) in my chart was listed at "8" ... how did you determine its more exact / precise value of 7.66850?  You did this with all of the VFL numbers, and I was confused as to how you derived the exact decimal point results.  When given a ''rounded'' result, how did you arrive at the ''non-rounded'' exact value (to 5 decimal places) of that data point?  Were these just trial-and-error "guesses" until you arrived at the exact / correct result?  Or was there some more precise mathematics involved that led you to the correct non-rounded values?  If you don't mind, would you please explain this to me at my Talk Page, when and if you have the time to do so.  Thanks!   ([[User:Joseph A. Spadaro|Joseph A. Spadaro]] ([[User talk:Joseph A. Spadaro#top|talk]]) 16:10, 28 March 2011 (UTC))

:::It is essentially trial-and-error, yes.  That said, the "transition points" (the top and bottom and where the rounded numbers change), are the places most likely to cause trouble.  In the body age calculations, we even had one spot where the rounded ages varied by 2, from 39 to 41, so I started trying to make those numbers work, then tested my results to see if they would work at the other transitions, too.  BTW, I would caution against calling my numbers an exact solution.  Perhaps "one possible solution consistent with the data provided" would be better.  Additional data might mean that the formulas and values would need to be revised (hopefully only slightly).  Here's the data in question:

 Body Age (rounded)↓   Body Age (not rounded)↓ 
 -------------------   ----------------------- 
     41                   40.9                 
     41                   40.6                  
     39                   39.4                 
     39                   39.3                 
     39                   38.6                 
     38                   37.9                  
     38                   37.8                 
     38                   37.7                  
     38                   37.7                  
     37                   36.9                  
     37                   36.9 

:::[[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat|talk]]) 20:25, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

:::: Hi.  Thanks again for your help.  I will have some follow-up questions in the future that I plan to post on the Wikipedia Reference Desks.  The follow-up questions are somewhat related (tangentially) to this issue above.  I will be posting them when I get some free time.  Perhaps, if you see them, you can also weigh in on the Reference Desks.  You seem to frequent those pages, it seems.  Thanks again!   ([[User:Joseph A. Spadaro|Joseph A. Spadaro]] ([[User talk:Joseph A. Spadaro#top|talk]]) 21:00, 7 April 2011 (UTC))

:::::You're welcome.  I will help answer, if I can. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:44, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

==Problems with upload of File:Cake2.GIF==
Thanks for uploading '''[[:File:Cake2.GIF]]'''. You don't seem to have said where the image came from, who created it, or what the copyright status is.  We require this information to verify that the image is legally usable on Wikipedia, and because most image licenses require giving credit to the image's creator.

To add this information, click on [[:File:Cake2.GIF|this link]], then click the "Edit" tab at the top of the page and add the information to the image's description.  If you need help, post your question on [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions]].

For more information on using images, see the following pages:
* [[Wikipedia:Image use policy]]
* [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags]]

Thank you for your cooperation. --[[User:ImageTaggingBot|ImageTaggingBot]] ([[User talk:ImageTaggingBot|talk]]) 21:07, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

:Fixed. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 00:07, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

==Massive Cake Impression==

I am glad you were able to help the OP on Humanities Desk Page.  I had to use all my skills of interpretation, as the OP gave us so little to go on.  I have not your skills, but what a cake!  All my study of Hermeneutics, I felt called to use.  I wonder what museum will benefit?  What a cake!   [[User:Bernard Mc Nally|MacOfJesus]] ([[User talk:Bernard Mc Nally|talk]]) 19:32, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

:Yes, that was a challenge, due to both misinformation and missing information.  As a computer programmer, I'm used to getting incomplete and incorrect specs, and having to follow up with the author.  As for the cake having no seam allowances, because they intend to sew the pieces of fabric together right at the edges, that just seems crazy.  In normal use that fabric would soon unravel and the seams would burst.  However, if only used as a prop for one play, it may get very little (ab)use, and thus survive.  I believe that sets are full of items too fragile to actually use, like walls that collapse if you lean against them (as [[Jackie Gleason]] once found out on the set of ''[[The Honeymooners]]''). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:43, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

:Incidentally, here's the permalink: [[Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2011_March_23#wedding_cake_impression]]. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 20:09, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I would not underestimate the skills of the OP, after all this will stay in a museum permanently.  However, temprature changes, no matter how slight will pay their toll!  [[User:Bernard Mc Nally|MacOfJesus]] ([[User talk:Bernard Mc Nally|talk]]) 20:14, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

:"Pay their toll" ?  That's interesting.  Here the expression is "take their toll". [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 20:27, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I was using [[reverse psychology]], in the sense that a toll is a levy, and temprature changes will "cause a payment to be made", which the "baker" of the cake will have to pay!  The expression is sometimes used here (but not often) in that way!  I would still like to know which museum!  [[User:Bernard Mc Nally|MacOfJesus]] ([[User talk:Bernard Mc Nally|talk]]) 22:50, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

She must live in the States as she used the expression: "I don't buy that!" [[User:Bernard Mc Nally|MacOfJesus]] ([[User talk:Bernard Mc Nally|talk]]) 23:01, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

:I certainly use that expression here in [[Detroit]].  Where are you ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 23:03, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

At the moment in [[Greenwich]], with one leg west and the other right! (Sorry for the [[sense of humour]]!).  [[User:Bernard Mc Nally|MacOfJesus]] ([[User talk:Bernard Mc Nally|talk]]) 23:07, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

:Does that make one leg an hour ahead of the other ? :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 23:13, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

No, No, Britain ruling the Waves would not allow that and any seam-sewing had to be done mid-Pacific, so when "you went West a day went west". Now? Someone left the cake out in the rain!  [[User:Bernard Mc Nally|MacOfJesus]] ([[User talk:Bernard Mc Nally|talk]]) 23:22, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Mid-night here!  Henry Vlll has just appeared to me and said I was sitting in his chair!  I'm anxious to keep my head on my shoulders, so I moved!  (I'm not eating any more cake before bed-time).  Sorry again!   [[User:Bernard Mc Nally|MacOfJesus]] ([[User talk:Bernard Mc Nally|talk]]) 00:09, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

:Your humor must be too British for me, and I get Monty Python and most more recent Britcoms, too. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 00:11, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

== Ref Desk Question ==

Hello StuRat. I asked a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Mathematics/2011_January_1#Graph_Theory question] on the ref desk a few months back and you were kind enough to give a detailed response to it. I still have a few doubts regarding the question, particularly what statement about bipartite graphs can be inferred and how does it follow. In context of your response I deduced that X+Y should be even for a board to have opposite squares of the same color and a nx1/1xn board with n even should always take out same number of white and black squares. I dont know how to proceed from this point. Could you help me a little please. Thanks-[[User:Shahab|Shahab]] ([[User talk:Shahab|talk]]) 13:25, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

:To clarify, are we still talking about removing 2×1 rectangles ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 14:39, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

::No. I understood the 2x1 rectangle part. I am interested in knowing the generalization and how it relates to bipartite graphs.-[[User:Shahab|Shahab]] ([[User talk:Shahab|talk]]) 16:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

:::I'm not quite sure what kind of general statement is being sought, beyond those I listed with the question, such as "A) The general rule appears to be that you can't remove balanced color rectangles (or squares) from a larger imbalanced-color square (or rectangle), and end up with nothing." [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:24, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

::::My doubt was precisely this: what statement about bipartite graphs may be inferred from all this. The question was in a graph theory book (by Douglas West). It does seem vague a little. Anyway, thanks for all the help.-[[User:Shahab|Shahab]] ([[User talk:Shahab|talk]]) 04:54, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

:::::You're welcome.  Sorry I couldn't help more. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 17:48, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

== Warkany syndrome ==

Hi StuRat.  I saw your reply to the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#Warkany_syndrome_1_and_2 Ref Desk question] on [[Warkany syndrome]].  I was also trying to answer the question and for the life of me couldn't find a real reference that defines Warkany syndrome 1 versus Warkany syndrome 2.  To be honest, I never use that eponym since trisomy 8 and trisomy 8 mosaicism seem much more informative and only the mosaic form is ever really seen clinically.  Can you point me to a reference that differentiates between 1 being mosaic and 2 being complete trisomy 8?  Everything I can find in PubMed seems to simply use "Warkany syndrome" for mosaic trisomy 8 - the 1977 Riccardi article that is cited only uses "The Warkany syndrome" in the abstract, and I don't have a handy copy of that issue of "Birth Defects Orig. Artic. Ser." :)  One of my Google hits ([http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Warkany+syndrome+2]) for "Warkany syndrome 2" describes the syndrome seen in trisomy 8 mosaicism.  And of course, most of the other google hits are just sites regurgitating Wikipedia content!  Thanks, [[User:Medical geneticist|Medical geneticist]] ([[User talk:Medical geneticist|talk]]) 16:32, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

:Yes, this link [http://www.humangeneticsdisorders.com/welcome/warkany-syndrome-2-trisomy-8/] seems to say that both the complete and mosaic forms are types of "Warkany syndrome 2", leaving me baffled as to what "Warkany syndrome 1" is.  I tried to clean up our articles based on the assumptions already present in them, but perhaps they were wrong to begin with ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:48, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

:Ah, this link seems to give a very rough description of Warkany syndrome 1: [http://www.nlm.nih.gov/archive/20061212/mesh/jablonski/cgi/jablonski/syndrome_cgi96c9.html?term=Warkany+syndrome+1&field=name].  I will use that to fix our articles. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:51, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

:OK, fixed.  Please let me know if it looks OK to you. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 17:16, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

::I think your detective work explains a lot.  I followed the link from the NLM site and the OMIM entry has been removed from the database, suggesting to me that this "syndrome" does not exist anymore.  I also managed to get the pdf of the 1961 article on IUGR and it looks like this is one family amongst a whole lot of other cases with IUGR and not really a description of a syndrome.  See my detailed response at the Ref Desk.  Perhaps the main article should be [[Trisomy 8]] with some discussion that the Warkany syndrome eponym is sometimes used, linking that to a page on Warkany syndrome that discusses the two very distinct "Warkany syndromes".  --- [[User:Medical geneticist|Medical geneticist]] ([[User talk:Medical geneticist|talk]]) 20:20, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

== Siphons are a Renewable Energy source  ==

In todays energy thirsty society, we should be exploring all clean energy sources that will help us supply our electricity needs into the future.  Large SIPHONS can bring water from lakes and even rivers to any desired location away from the source as long as the outlet is below the inlet far enough.  A River Siphon can run 24/7, and the water that is used to produce power can be returned back to the river without any harmful effect on the environment. Siphons should someday be classified as a Hydroelectric source.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/72.53.194.237|72.53.194.237]] ([[User talk:72.53.194.237|talk]]) 22:03, 16 April 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Toothbrush Moustache ==

I wanted to thank you for reverting and supporting my addition of the [[toothbrush moustache]] to Hitler's legacy. It's good to know that some people here still believe in good faith. [[User:Le Scarlet Douche|Le Douche? But of course!]] ([[User talk:Le Scarlet Douche|talk]]) 00:54, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

:You're welcome.  Note that neither of the people who reverted your edit thought it was a bad faith edit (vandalism), they just didn't think it was quite important enough to include in an article which is already too long.  I disagreed.  Perhaps the article needs to be broken up more, and a [[Hitler's legacy]] article will end up containing your contribution. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 00:58, 20 April 2011 (UTC)


Accordin  To The Title, You  Are Saying Poor Hitler Has A ToothBrush Mustache. Now That Makes Me  Laugh Great.[[Special:Contributions/184.163.238.18|184.163.238.18]] ([[User talk:184.163.238.18|talk]]) 15:53, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

== Hoarding ==
Thanks for trying to improve the [[Hoarding]] article but please do not put the same un-cited and un-sourced information in again. Do some research if you like and find information and make a citation for information.
The article has a problem and is tagged to remove information like the information you returned to it which is not cited with some reference citation from reliable sources. Fidel Drumbo 16:01, 22 April 2011 (UTC)  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:FidelDrumbo|FidelDrumbo]] ([[User talk:FidelDrumbo|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/FidelDrumbo|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Thanks for at least telling me about your deletion.  However:

:1) I did include a link to the main article, [[compulsive hoarding]], which contains plenty of references.

:2) Do you doubt that compulsive hoarding exists ?  That's the only reason I can see for your deletion.  If not, then references should be added, rather than the section deleted. 

:3) There was already one reference before I arrived, so the tag, which stated that there were no references, was incorrect.  There are now 5 refs, so I removed the tag. 

:4) Please include a proper signature, including a link to your talk page, when leaving comments.  Fortunately I have Sign-bot active, which, as you can see, also considered your unlinked signature to be inadequate.  

:5) Please use either the "New section" tab at the top or the "Start a new talk topic" link at the top of this page, when adding new sections, rather than editing the previous section, as that results in incorrect indexing on the history page. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:17, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

::For some reason the soft-wear of my signature does not work right, sorry about that, also I am not an expert here at how this method works. 

::Main article may be good but can not use Wikipedia as a reference as it is ''unreliable''.

:::The references in the main article is what I am referring to.  Is it really necessary to copy them all over ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 10:06, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

::The article was tagged for good reason about removing un cited un referenced material. I added the number one reference previously. Any material on the article previously could be deleted. I have no stake in things being ''true'' or not. As to me adding references for others material, that is not my job unless I chose it. Any info. on the article as said was removable previously, no ''truth'' involved.

:::It's also not your job to delete perfectly good, if unreferenced, material.  I just don't get your motivation for doing so.  I suppose it's easier to delete than improve, but that doesn't make it right. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 10:04, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

::The parking, car parking information you added seems out of place. Probably best to remove that. It just does not make a lot of sense in that human section and the citation is not giving the page number of the reference or any information really on that information. I am going to remove that and the citation, mostly it appears to be information from Talmud discussion? So is moralistic or ethical information which does not seem to fit maybe. Hoarding parking places? Otherwise thanks for adding the very good citations, especially the Mayo clinic definition. Sorry but my signature thing is just not working. Not sure why, but the robot will add my signature no problem. Fidel Drumbo 02:10, 23 April 2011 (UTC)  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:FidelDrumbo|FidelDrumbo]] ([[User talk:FidelDrumbo|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/FidelDrumbo|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Have  You Ever Watched [[Hoarding, Buried  Alive]]? It  Is Fun To Watch And Is Educational ABout Hoarding.[[Special:Contributions/184.163.238.18|184.163.238.18]] ([[User talk:184.163.238.18|talk]]) 16:02, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

:No. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:46, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

== Invitation to take part in a study ==

I am a Wikipedian, who is studying the phenomenon on Wikipedia. I need your help to conduct my research on about understanding "Motivation of Wikipedia contributors." I would like to invite you to [[User:Cooldenny/Questionnaire|Main Study]]. Please give me your valuable time, which estimates about '''20 minutes'''. I chose you as a English Wikipedia user who made edits recently through the RecentChange page. Refer to the first page in the online survey form for more information on the study and me.[[User:Cooldenny|cooldenny]] ([[User talk:Cooldenny|talk]]) 02:08, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

== schools ==

Hi {{PAGENAME}}.  The  [[WP:WPSCH|Wikipedia Schools Project]] has set up a dedicated  '''help and feedback page''' at '''[[WP:WPSCH/H]]'''. This for elementary/primary, middle, and high schools (often called  ''college'' in the UK). It is not for universities.<br> If  you regularly give advice to users, you might wish to send enquirers there - we are quick to respond. However, [[WT:WPSCH]] still remains the place for general discussion about the management and policy of school articles. --[[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 00:21, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

== Mistake ==

Please do not leave an unnecessary grammar mistake near the end of [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FHumanities&action=historysubmit&diff=427523217&oldid=427522811 your otherwise well written response] at the Ref. Desk. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 07:38, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

:Care to identify the mistake ?  If it's "brags" versus "bragged", I corrected that right after I wrote it. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 01:37, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

::''For people who follow international law, they are entitled to it's''[''sic'']'' protections.'' Having identified that, I still agree with what you said. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 07:38, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

:::Ah, you refer to my use of "it's" rather than "its".  I take it you missed the long discussion of this on the Ref Desk a while back ?  I realize this usage isn't standard, but I prefer it, to make a distinction between the possessive form and the plural form of "it". [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 15:43, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

::::If someone has taught you a different definition of these words than is documented in every published grammar then you have had bad teaching. Perhaps someone has given you an impression that the rules of educated English are malleable to your preference. The reasoning "I prefer it, to make a distinction between the possessive form and the plural form of "it" " is absurd. The plural of "it" is "they". [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 21:41, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::1) Unlike French, there's no single committee which sets the global standard for English.  

:::::2) English (and French, for that matter) is ultimately malleable, as the rules are periodically adjusted to match the current practice.  

:::::3) The plural for "it" is sometimes "its" as in "I treat all my guests equally, whether they are 'hes', 'shes', or 'its'". [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 22:02, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

::::::1) There is no single committee which sets the global standard for colours.
::::::2) Colours (and toffee, for that matter) are ''toutement malléable'', as the colours are periodically adjusted by the committee that doesn't exist whenever I get an idea for improvement.
::::::3) Sometimes colours are black as in "I close my eyes in a bucket of sand to make them black, whether they are red, blue or white."
::::::4) In this way I have discovered a confusion, but luckily I have the solution. I simply write black instead of white.
::::::5) My idea is very good and I thought of it myself. It's insignificant that universities, art schools, every painter in the entire Universe and people who compile catalogues of carpet colours say I am wrong. That happens to all Great Innovators, like Albert Einstein when she invented the elliptical billiard ball.
::::::6) Just like Einstein (did I mention her invention?) I shall ignore the doubters who moan "Oooh oooh how can we tell the difference between white which you call black and real black?" and "There wouldn't be a problem if you pulled your head out of the bucket".
::::::7) Everyone will be convinced I am right when they see my improvement celebrated in Wikipedia. I shall write black where the inferior standard says white, as often as I can at a reference desk. Children will learn from my example and a search engine will help everyone find my posts in the archive where nobody but me can edit them.  [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 11:50, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::::Wow, what the heck was that ?  I assume you are trying to say that the rules of spelling and grammar are as fixed as the laws of physics (the elliptical ball) and historical facts (Einstein's gender).  They aren't, they are just opinions that evolve over time.  I suppose our definitions of colors could change over time, though.  I remember thinking that when looking at a box of 64 crayolas.  "Periwinkle" ?  What's that ?  Can't they come up with a better way to label colors than just random words they assign to random colors ?  How about a system like compass headings ?  We could have RED, RED_ORANGE_RED, RED_ORANGE, ORANGE_RED_ORANGE, ORANGE, etc.  That would make more sense.  So, yes, that one is a good example.  I don't see any possible advantage to switching the names of black and white, though. 

:::::::Something else interesting is that it's so important to you that you are willing to invest so much time in it.  My spelling of "it's" seems to genuinely distress you.  I take it you are a "everything must be done by the book" type of person ?  If even this stresses you out, you'd better learn to relax, for your health's sake. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 21:07, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

::::::::Wrong. The text is a parody of a person who uses the absurd claim that it is commendable to create a confusion to mitigate another confusion that doesn't exist. I am an admirer of librettist [[W. S. Gilbert]] who excelled in the comedy of satire where the subject is unaware that they are being laughed at, and to whom I owe the surrealist image of the elliptical billiard ball. Play [https://www.gsarchive.net/mikado/webopera/mk206.html this midi] if you like. The lyrics are 126 years old but I expect you can understand them, thanks to the resilience on that timescale of the English language against vain attempts to "debug" it. There's nothing wrong with your spelling of it's, you just did it where the equivalent words "IT IS" make no sense. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 09:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::You don't seem to have addressed my 2nd paragraph.  Why are you so obsessed with how I choose to spell the possessive form of "it" ?   (I'd better not mention that I sometimes use the spelling "thru" instead of "through", or your head might explode.) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 09:38, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::Blah-blah. Ooops sorry, I meant Bye-bye. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 13:32, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

== Question  For  You  Or Anybody  On  Your  Talki  Page  .. ==

Hi  StuRat. What Are  The Economic Activites In China?[[Special:Contributions/184.163.238.18|184.163.238.18]] ([[User talk:184.163.238.18|talk]]) 15:48, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

:This is an odd place to ask such a question.  First, have you looked at our [[China]] article ?  That should have led ou to [[Economic history of the People's Republic of China]].  Another good source is the CIA Factbook: [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ch.html] (pick the economy section).  If you still need more info, try the Wikipedia Reference Desk. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:45, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

== Thanks ==

Thanks for adding section headings to the monster thread on RD/M.  I love this thread so much.  [[User:Comet Tuttle|Comet Tuttle]] ([[User talk:Comet Tuttle|talk]]) 17:33, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

:You're welcome.  I find it much easier to edit this way. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 17:40, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

== .PPM to .GIF ==

#Do you know whether the [[Netpbm]] package runs under Windows Vista?
#What route do you follow from plain .PPM to animated GIF? Is GIMP involved?
[[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 07:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

1) I don't know about Vista, I use Windows XP.

2) No GIMP.  I use the [[ImageMagick]] convert command:

 convert -delay 10 fubar*.ppm fubar.gif

The delay between frames is optional, of course.  I use numbers in the PPM file names to control the order in which they are combined (like fubar01.ppm - fubar99.ppm). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 08:17, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

:Do you know how ImageMagick produces the GIF color table i.e. is it fixed or derived from the source image? [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 08:08, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Derived from the source image.  In the case of an animated GIF, I believe each frame gets it's own color table derived from the image. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 15:45, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

== Mistake the second ==

Please don't leave an unnecessary grammar mistake near the end of [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FMiscellaneous&action=historysubmit&diff=430467339&oldid=430467024 your otherwise well written response] at the Ref. Desk. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 08:03, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

:Fixed.  Some questions:

:1) Why don't you identify the mistake with these posts ?

:2) Do you do a post like this for every mistake anyone makes on the Ref Desk ?  I've seen some posts with a dozen or more mistakes.  You must be very busy. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 15:49, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

::1) It's unnecessary.
::2) No. I would need to see diffs to believe that "posts with 12+ mistakes" is not an exaggeration. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 21:10, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

:::1) And why is it necessary to withhold info which would obviously be useful to me (so I wouldn't have to search for the error) ? 

:::2) How many errors do you count by the OP here: [[Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Entertainment/2011_May_17#The_Last_Story_in_CoroCoro_Comic_what_the_hell_was_they_thinking.21]] ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 01:51, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

::::1) Please excuse my frankness when I say that a school system taught you English and presumably parents/aquaintances/society at large have transmitted the English-speaking culture to you. That is the way it survives through each generation. We are part of that process. You also take part in the English Wikipedia project which will be a significant gift to future generations. I presume you are literate enough to see obvious typos. Be reassured that no one witholds English grammar from you, and if you want I can refer you to excellent Wikipedia articles and guidebooks on the subject.
::::2) I counted ''many'' language errors by the OP at the link you give, as you also did [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FEntertainment&action=historysubmit&diff=429621812&oldid=429621127 '''and commented on''']. I add my comment that there is a difference between what one reasonably expects from an OP coming to a Ref. Desk and from a responder. The former can be a child asking for help and an OP virtually never edits their own post. (You asked the OP to rewrite!) In contrast, a responder in effect volunteers to represent Wikipedia to the OP. Responses are then archived for future reference. We hold responders responsible for what they post, especially at the Ref. Desks, because they are normally the only one allowed to correct errors in what they post. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 11:22, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::1) Unlike many others, I do proofread what I write and correct mistakes, when I find them.  But, of course, like everyone else, I do occasionally miss a few.  If not already perfectly obvious from my previous posts, I am requesting that you tell me specifically which word or words you object to, rather than ask me to proofread my post again to try to discern what you consider to be an error.  Since English grammar is variable, I won't always agree with you on what is and isn't an error.

:::::2) The errors in that post rose to the level that I wasn't able to decipher it (although somebody else was able to).  When they get that bad, I feel the need to ask for a clarification.  I also respond to errors when I see an opportunity for a bit of [[humor]], as that hopefully makes it seem less critical than a correction otherwise might. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:35, 24 May 2011 (UTC) 

::My understanding is that you were one of those late last year who opined that they wouldn't mind if Cuddlyable3 pointed out their spelling and grammar mistakes in RD posts. If CA3 were to point out such errors to random (or targeted) others, they would likely attract sanctions for their ongoing behaviour, which has been found against consensus and disruptive. However it is my impression that you explicitly asked for these corrections. Is that impression wrong? [[User:Franamax|Franamax]] ([[User talk:Franamax|talk]]) 23:06, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

:::I don't recall that, but I may have.  I wouldn't mind, in general, but Cuddly does seem to point out errors in a particularly annoying manner.  In addition to not telling me what the error is, they also argue with me if I choose not to change my text, and then open what they call an "RFC".  Cuddly also makes larger H1 headings here, instead of the standard H2 headings (which I have now fixed). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 01:51, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

::::It is no big deal to correct one's own typo [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cuddlyable3&diff=prev&oldid=414668452 as in this example]. Note the absence of ''ad hominem'' reproof or other unhealthy reaction there. I ''ceased'' to discuss your continuing eccentric deviation from the established English contraction IT'S = IT IS when you introduced nonsense about obsession and "your head might explode". I can't think why you want to tell a belligerent stalker about your page heading levels but I dislike the idea that every visitor's post to your page must begin under a H1 heading "Vicious comments from others". I don't know any other user page arranged that way and I offer [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cuddlyable3 a friendlier welcome on mine]. BTW this is my name: [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 11:26, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::A) You missed, presumably intentionally, the "(and a few that aren't)" part of my section heading.  You're the first person to have a problem with that heading.  

:::::B) Who is the "belligerent stalker" you're talking about ?  

:::::C) I presume you don't like having your screen name abbreviated.  It's a bit long to always write out, though. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:22, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

::::::My answer to B) is nobody who is worth mentioning. I see no more questions. Thank you for fixing the "you're". [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 20:35, 24 May 2011 (UTC) I

:::::::Your welcome. :-)  And, as I requested, please tell me the actual word(s) in error the next time you post here. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 21:07, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
::::::::I leave finding the error in "Your[''sic''] welcome" as an exercise for the reader.  [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 09:34, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::As perhaps a not so random drive by editor I find your conclusion that Stu's use of the word "your" is erroneous is itself erroneous. I believe that it was intentional and intended to bait your pedantic  response. I'll be redundant and repeat his closing :-) and add ;-)  Regards C3 and do try to lighten up. <small> Any syntactical, grammatical or spelling errors in this posting are not intentional and so I don't care. </small>[[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] ([[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]]) 02:22, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::Yes, C3 took the bait I left; hook, line and sinker. :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 02:38, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::: ;-) [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] ([[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]]) 02:58, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

== Polishing gym shoes ) ==
((Moved here from where I left it in error at Stu-Rat)
In my era, the shoes (and the laces) were washed first (by hand, with a scrub brush or in a washing machine, depending on dirty they were and how lenient my grandmother was feeling) and then hung to dry by their tongues on the clothesline. Once they were completely dry, you took a bottle of  [http://shoeshinekit.com/hofliqshodre.html liquid white shoe polish] and, after shaking it thoroughly, poured some out onto a rag. Using a circular motion, you covered the whole of the canvas part of the shoes. The gym teacher would test by wetting her finger and then touching the shoe. If white didn't come off on her finger, 2 demerit points. (I think it is the same liquid used by band members to apply to the straps that support drums, for example, in a marching band.)  Now you know how to polish white canvas shoes. :-) [[User:Bielle|Bielle ]] ([[User talk:Bielle|talk]]) 03:59, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

:Wow, what a waste of time.  And how is having white paint on your shoes that comes off on everything supposed to be an improvement ?  Also, the idea of the canvas is that it breaths, to prevent kids from getting hot, sweaty feet where [[athlete's foot]] will flourish.  But plugging all of the air holes with white paint messes up that plan.  If they just wanted you to do busy work to "build character", they could have had you move piles of dirt around all day. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 06:10, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

::The canvas gym shoes I recall didn't have visible air holes except right at the arch, but the ones inherent in the weave would certainly have been clogged. There was, and perhaps still are, aspects of formal schooling that resembled the military life, where doing apparently stupid things over and over in unquestioning obedience was supposed to build character. Sometimes I am astonished that so much creativity still bubbled up in people despite their school experiences. [[User:Bielle|Bielle ]] ([[User talk:Bielle|talk]]) 15:56, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

:::Yes, I meant the air gaps in the weave.  

:::"When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school, it's a wonder I can think at all." - [[Kodachrome (song)]] - [[Paul Simon]]. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:39, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

== Reference Desk: Your response removed ==

[[user:Red Act]] has removed a thread that you participated in [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FScience&action=historysubmit&diff=435534518&oldid=435533796].  It is being discussed on the reference desk [[Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#Vandalism_by_Red_Act|talk page]]. [[User:Buddy431|Buddy431]] ([[User talk:Buddy431|talk]]) 03:57, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

:Thanks for letting me know ! [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:23, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

== Ref Desk Removal ==

Knock it off [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities&diff=prev&oldid=436619916].  I provided a reliable source to answer a question.  You have no right to remove my answer.  If you don't like the question, you are under no obligation to answer it.  '''Do Not''' try to try to impose your policies on me.

Also, you should have notified me when you made that removal, as well as [[User:Willminator]] when you removed his correct (though admittedly unsourced) response [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities&diff=prev&oldid=436580847].  I have done what you should have [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Willminator&diff=436619920&oldid=436598730].  If you have a problem to my response, bring it to my talk page, or the ref. desk talk page. [[User:Buddy431|Buddy431]] ([[User talk:Buddy431|talk]]) 04:35, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

:I knew the answer to that Q as well, but didn't feel like helping a kid cheat on his homework.  (If there was any question of it being a homework Q, that would be different.)  Why do you want to help him cheat ?  There's absolutely no sign of him making any effort to figure it out himself.  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:42, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

:As for notification, I certainly believe in that for "innocent bystanders", but not for people who knowingly violate the rules, like you. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:44, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

::I provided a reliable source (a news article) that gives a decent amount of information about the subject.  You don't have to answer the question if you feel it is wrong, but do not prevent others from doing what the reference desk is for (providing references, hopefully reliable).  How is it "cheating" to use resources at your disposal, including the internet, to do your assignments (provided it's not specifically prohibited).  And how am I "helping him cheat" in providing a news article that describes the topic in some detail (and yes, includes the answer to the question).  The article I provided is probably ten times as long as the brief mention the subject gets in the presumed student's textbook, where we would otherwise be telling him to look.

::I get sidetracked, though.  Even if this was me blatently helping a student cheat (which I don't think it was), you have no reason, whatsoever, to remove my valid, correct, on topic, and referenced response. You can worry about what you post, and I'll worry about what I post.  How's that? [[User:Buddy431|Buddy431]] ([[User talk:Buddy431|talk]]) 04:50, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

:::1) The answer is right in the title of your link, so he doesn't have to read a word of the article.

:::2) He doesn't learn a thing about how to do a web search.

:::3) No, the Ref Desk is a collaborative effort, and we each police each other.  Do you feel you can just ignore all the rules ? 

:::4) You should also know that I very rarely delete anyone else's contributions, but this case was one of the most blatant homework questions I've ever seen.  Now, if you had suggested how to do a web search, instead of just giving him the answer, that would be different.  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:57, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

== Could the U.S. hock Taiwan? ==

You might like to repair the error in your otherwise [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FHumanities&action=historysubmit&diff=436812835&oldid=436807346 well written post] at RD/H. Location: Verse 2), Sentence #1, Word #9, Character #3, ASCII code 0x2C. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 22:20, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

:You already know my usage of "it's" as the possessive form is intentional, and therefore not an "error". [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 22:27, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
::That logic is faulty because it reduces to the untenable axiom "what I do is inerrant just because I do it". Wikipedia, an encyclopedia project that is written in English, explains that '''its''' and '''it's''' can mean:
::* '''''it's''''', a [[contraction (grammar)|contraction]] of ''it is'' or ''it has'' 
::* '''''its''''', the possessive adjective and possessive pronoun form of the personal [[It (pronoun)|pronoun ''it'']].
::These should have been taught to you and if not then it is time that you learned them. Thousands of your fellow editors wish to use these words correctly so what possible satisfaction do you gain from letting us all down? Your [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AStuRat&action=historysubmit&diff=436079083&oldid=436077422 jeering post] above shows that you derive some kind of malicious glee from interchanging the correct usages of these words. I see bad attitude that is toxic to the project. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 23:34, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

:::An [[Wiktionary:error|error]] is "an accidental wrong action or a false statement not made deliberately", so this clearly isn't an error.  And you're the only one who gets upset at this, which says more about you than me.  Learn to relax a bit. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 23:41, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

::::You quibble. I originally used the word "error" in polite assumption that your mistake was innocent. I withdraw that assumption and call your distorted wordage "erroneous" which means incorrect, inaccurate, mistaken, deviant, from L. ''erroneus'' "vagrant, wandering". It is dishonest to prevaricate now that your wrong action is accidental after you have brashly stated that it is intentional. You seem intent on acting out the truism "''The wise one welcomes a correction because it guides towards perfection, but the fool only defends his error making.''" [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 01:10, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::Why are you accusing me of lying ?  I never claimed it was an accident, that was you.  As you well know from our previous exchanges, I choose to use "it's" as the possessive form, knowing full-well this is non-standard.  You're the dishonest one, here, by continuously pretending it's an accident, every time I use it. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 02:25, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

::::::The accusation of lying is indeed strong and I owe everyone an explanation of how I have reached that opinion. StuRat argues that a wrong act is not an error if he does the wrong act deliberately. That argument is sophistry. It is irrelevant for an editor to speculate on a writer's motive because the editor's proper function is to put text right. A textual error is identifiable as such and there is no special class of wrong text that "looks obviously wrong to a normally educated English reader but is really correct because StuRat willed it". The presumption that StuRat has standing to justify such [[Special pleading]] would be a lie. It was unnecessary to confront StuRat with that castigation initially and I did not do so. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 14:04, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:Quite aside from the deliberate use of "it's" as a possessive, do you also use "her's" and "he's", or some other variant using an apostrophe for the other persons? I don't recall seeing any such, so I am just curious. If you don't, why is "it's" singled out? This is a genuine question, unrelated, except as to proximity, to  Cuddly's stand. [[User:Bielle|Bielle ]] ([[User talk:Bielle|talk]]) 01:34, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

::I would use "her's" as the possessive form of "her", yes.  We already have a distinct, possessive form of "he", that being "his", so there's no need to create one there. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 02:25, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::Besides being grammatically untenable (see below) the above post is sexist. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 14:18, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

::::Now what crazy idea have you gotten ?  It's not my fault that "he" has the possessive form "his", while "her" does not have a unique possessive form.  If there was a word "heris" or "hris" or some such thing, then there would be no need for "her's", and, conversely, if there was no word "his", then I'd write "he's", instead. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 17:53, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::"Hers" is a "unique possessive form", though, is it not?  Is there some other use of "hers" I am overlooking? [[User:Bielle|Bielle ]] ([[User talk:Bielle|talk]]) 18:17, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

::::::The plural, meaning more than one "her".  Not common, like the plural of "it", but still a valid word.  And "her's" obviously means "belonging to her", to any reader, while "he's" or "hi's" would cause confusion. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:29, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::::I am just sorting through the logic here. There is no such thing, as far as I know, as a "her". Can you give me an example, aside from contrived grammar such as "The 'hers' in that sentence should all be 'hises' (another non-word)? And, just for the record "it's" is as likely to cause confusion as "he's", for example, isn't it? Perhaps we should all go back to: mine, thine, yourn, hisn, hern, ourn, yourn, theirn.  Ah, yes, no "itn", is there? [[User:Bielle|Bielle ]] ([[User talk:Bielle|talk]]) 19:13, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::::Adding to StuRat's nonsensical justification for abusing "it's", StuRat displays ignorance of such basic grammar as used in the sentence: ''She retrieved her wallet because it was hers but she left the money because it was his.'' However things that are more disturbing than StuRat's real or pretended incorrigibility in handling pronouns are
:::::::* StuRat's near-megalomaniacal assumption than the English language is waiting for StuRat to heal it by StuRat's supposed improvements, and
:::::::* StuRat's language abuses make the kind of mess that is routinely fixed by other editors in article mainspace, but instead StuRat posts them in ref. desk responses where generally only StuRat is allowed to correct them. I have yet to see ''that'' happening.
:::::::Since StuRat's ideas for posessive pronouns with apostrophes have a [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/snowball%27s_chance_in_hell snowball's chance in hell] of acceptability in any Wikipedia article I suggest StuRat watches [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V3xzY0M7BI|a film]], noting the film's title.  [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 18:45, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

::::::::Since there's more than one female in that clip, they must be using "hers" as the plural of "her". :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:53, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::Not funny. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evK08AvlrYY Have a massage], listen to [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0adgKR85iGo country music], watch [[Divorce His, Divorce Hers|another film]] and [http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/epl0062l.jpg wise up]. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 19:36, 3 July 2011 (UTC)


===Chiming in===

Disclaimer: I was unaware of the above discussion when I wrote what follows.<br>
Stu, I think you're taking your '''it's''' thing too far.  It's bad enough that you mix your abbreviatory it'ses with your possessive it'ses in the same sentence (''...but if '''it's''' not long enough to merit '''it's''' own article'').  Now, verbs are getting the apostrophic treatment too ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities&diff=437495923&oldid=437495781 ''if it '''get's''' too big'']).  Desist, or I'll sool Cuddlyable3 onto you.  :)  --  [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;"><sup>[your turn]</sup></span>]] 03:54, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:OK, that one actually was a mistake, I will fix it.  Does "sool" mean "sic" in Aussiespeak ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:30, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:: While you're at it, you might want to do something with ''"Most of the '''planet's''' (all, now that we exclude Pluto) orbits ..."'' at the Planets question on the Science desk.  That looks like you're talking about the various orbits that one single planet has, but the logic tells me you're actually talking about the orbits of the planets (plural) - hence ''"Most of the '''planets'''' ... orbits"''.  
:: Yes, we also use "sic my dog onto you", but "sool" is well known too.  However, not so well known that it merits a mention in wiktionary. [http://www.definition-of.com/sool Here]'s an online reference.  Cheers.  --  [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;"><sup>[your turn]</sup></span>]] 05:06, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::OK, good catch, I'll fix that one, too. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 06:18, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::: Interesting that you acknowledge "get's" is a mistake, but you make no such acknowledgment for "merit it's own article".  You've made it abundantly clear that you're more than fully conversant with the rules, but you still intend to do it your way.  That doesn't alter the fact that "it's" used possessively is a mistake, because no amount of conscious, deliberate intention to do a wrong thing somehow makes it right.  Cold-bloodedly and calculatedly killing a person with malice aforethought is an even worse crime than killing a person in the heat of the moment.  That principle applies exactly the same to deliberately making spelling mistakes - as you proudly do all the time with "it's" - as compared to making inadvertent typos, as we all do from time to time.  There's no law against being a stubborn, obstinate rebel.  But the honest thing to do would be to accept and acknowledge that "it's" used possessively is wrong and ''ipso facto'' a mistake, even if you fully intend to go right on using it that way.  --  [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;"><sup>[your turn]</sup></span>]] 14:37, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::A "[[Wiktionary:mistake|mistake]]" or "error" must be accidental.  You can argue that my usage is "incorrect", but not that it's a mistake or error.  When correcting others' English, you should endeavor to use correct English yourself.  To use your killer example, it's as if you accused a murderer of [[negligent homicide]]; they are two different things. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 17:47, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

::::::In 19th century France, ''[[Crime of passion|crime passionnel]]'' was a valid defense in murder cases. The modern equivalent is a temporary [[Insanity defense]]. Is this where StuRat is going? [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 19:14, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::::Those aren't remotely equivalent.  While being found to be insane may get the verdict "not guilty"; being a crime of passion today may only get the sentence reduced from [[murder]] to [[voluntary manslaughter]], in the US: [[Murder_%28United_States_law%29#Degrees_of_murder_in_the_United_States]] (although I don't see why people who occasionally go nuts and kill people around them deserve a lighter sentence). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:35, 3 July 2011 (UTC)  

:::::::: I deliberately didn't get into precise legal terminology, because crimes are differently defined and named from place to place.  There's no "negligent homicide" in Australia, for example. I was simply comparing a deliberate, intentional, conscious, wilful, planned act with one done inadvertently with no pre-thought. 
::::::::But of course I can argue your use of "it's" is an error.  You yourself have admitted this by acknowledging the rules outlaw it.  Now, whether a mistake must always be accidental - I'd argue against that idea, too.  Have you ever spent some money on something and then later discovered you could have got it at half the price somewhere else, if only you'd known?  and then kick yourself for not doing as much research as you might have done?  When you purchased the item, it was intentional, conscious, deliberate, with absolutely nothing "accidental" about it.  But in retrospect, you now see it as very much a mistake.  Very much so.  --  [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;"><sup>[your turn]</sup></span>]] 21:55, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::Perhaps that could be considered a mistake, if you didn't know that there was a better deal to be had elsewhere.  But, if you had full knowledge of this, then it would not be a mistake, any more than using "it's" knowing full well that it's non-standard is a mistake. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 22:19, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::: So what's the "better deal" with writing stuff like "merit it's own article"?  What is more important to you than doing what the rules and conventions say?  There has to be something in it for you.  Like cigarette smokers.  I was one myself, for years after I knew how harmful they were.  Yet I kept on smoking, because that immediate "fix" was more important to me, in the moment, than any thoughts of how my hip-pocket nerve or my lungs and general medical condition were being affected.  Once I stopped, I fully realised what a colossal mistake it had been all along to be controlled by that momentary, temporary, fleeting "fix" - but that's what addiction is all about, I guess.  So, that's my story of why I ignored all the best advice and did it my way.  Whats yours with possessive "it's"?  --  [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;"><sup>[your turn]</sup></span>]] 23:00, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::::Geez, didn't we cover all of this long ago ?  I prefer to make a distinction between the possessive form and the plural form of "it".  Also, my way seems more consistent with the addition of apostrophe S (or S apostrophe for plurals) when making a proper noun possessive. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 23:18, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::::: Sorry, but what plural form? As for consistency, adding apostrophe S is consistent with the rule for making '''nouns''' possessive, but "it" is not a noun so those rules don't apply.  Not even with attributive possessive pronouns like "Whose book is that? It's mine/yours/his/hers/its/ours/yours/theirs".  Why not add apostrophes to yours, hers, ours and theirs if you're so keen on consistency?  No, I don't believe consistency is your real motivation here, Stu. You don't have to divulge it if you don't want to, I'm just curious, that's all.  No way am I trying to make you change anything.  I gave that up as futile a long time ago.   --  [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;"><sup>[your turn]</sup></span>]] 23:42, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::::::The (rare) plural forms are in the sentence "How many "hes", "shes" and "its" can we expect ?"  I do use the apostrophe with "her's" because "belonging to it" or "her" both make sense, but not "belonging to your" or "our" or "their".   [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 00:18, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::::::StuRat repeats a claim that has [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2011_May_7#Request_for_comment:_ITS already been tried at RD/L]. It will hoodwink only someone who cannot tell the difference between a ''plural'' and a ''plurality''. Any child can write "sheep" twice and then boast of her ability to write many ''sheeps'' but that is not discovering a rare new plural form. StuRat's concern is with the posessive use of an apostrophe to the exclusion of all else. But in English the [[apostrophe]] (see article) serves all these purposes:
::::::::::::::* The marking of the omission of one or more letters (as in the [[Contraction (grammar)|contraction]] of ''do not'' to ''don't'').
::::::::::::::* The marking of [[possessive case]] (as in ''the cat's whiskers'').
::::::::::::::* The marking as [[plural]] of written items that are not [[word]]s established in English [[orthography]] (as in ''P's and Q's'', ''the late 1950's''). (This is considered incorrect by some but the use of the apostrophe to form plurals of proper words, as in ''apple's'', ''banana's'', etc., is universally considered incorrect.) [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 08:24, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::::::: I think "hoodwink" is a little harsh.  I've never known StuRat to be malicious; he's always a proper gentleman.  But I will say this: He uses a non-standard spelling to avoid confusing the possessive "its" with the so-called plural of "it".  That plural is so extremely rarely encountered in real life as to be virtually unheard of.  So, to alter the spelling of a word we all use every day of the week, to defer to a word most of us never encounter even once in our entire lives, that's if it's even a word ''at all'', is ... well, lame hardly begins to cover it.  But that's what he's telling us.  Still, the man is entitled to make whatever mistakes he chooses, as are we all.  Maybe we should leave him alone now.  --  [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;"><sup>[your turn]</sup></span>]] 11:43, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::Thanks (except for the lame part), but you're still using the word "mistake" incorrectly. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 14:05, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::: I do believe you're the one who's mistaken on that score, but we can agree to disagree.  --  [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;"><sup>[your turn]</sup></span>]] 20:05, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

There are eight possessive pronouns in modern English: mine, yours, his, hers, its, ours, theirs, and whose, plus the antiquated possessive pronoun thine and the Middle English yourn (see also English personal pronouns). The word "its" is, however, rarely used as such (almost always it functions as a possessive adjective). Among these, "its" and "whose" are properly distinct from "it's" (a contraction of "it is" or "it has") and "who's" ("who is" or "who has"); however, <u>these and other misspellings with apostrophes</u> ("her's" to mean "hers", etc.) are common. - ''my underlining''. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 14:12, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:And you imagine that quoting the "rulebook" will get me to change my mind ?  Or, when you encounter a deceased equine, do you enjoy thrashing it's Earthly remains ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 17:57, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

::Wikipedia articles do not create rules, instead they report verifiable information collected from reliable sources. I quoted above from the article [[Possessive pronoun]] which hardly surprisingly is the work of ''hundreds'' of editors working in consensus. Can correct information enlighten an obdurate mind? It would be nice to imagine so but StuRat's talk of thrashing suggests it may just feed StuRat's [[Martyr complex]]. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 19:03, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::Your thought processes seem rather disordered.  I've said nothing to imply I feel like a martyr, as I am a live rat, not a dead horse. :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:36, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

::::<small>[[Rat]]s may be charming pets ([[Fancy rat|really!]]) or infectious vermin. Their language skills are minimal and legend says they are [[Pied Piper of Hamelin|easy to mislead]]. The rats at the [[Karni Mata]] Temple are destined for reincarnation as Hindu holy men but that does not make them competent to teach English. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 09:10, 4 July 2011 (UTC)</small>

:::::I'm not an English teacher, since, even with my modest efforts at reform, it's still far too random and illogical for me. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 14:02, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::: I had exited this discussion, but "my modest efforts at reform" demands a response.  You now finally admit that you are using "it's" possessively in an attempt to influence others to do likewise.  You want people to play by your rules.  Yet you refuse steadfastly to play by the rules that have been solidly cemented in by convention over a very long period of time, about when to use "it's" and when to use "its".  That's the crux of this; it's not some silly apostrophe, that's trivial at the end of the day.  It's your insistence on doing something your way, even if the whole world is telling you you're wrong.  You've used logic as an argument (even though exactly how logic applies to most of the English language escapes me), to mask your real motivation here. It's your way of having control over ''something'', no matter how (relatively) minor and inconsequential it may be in itself. Well, I can understand that, I really can. We all need a sense of control about stuff; the trick is in picking which stuff to try to control.  Sure, you get to control what letters and symbols you use to communicate your thoughts; you can choose whether to talk about bricks, or to talk about mortar; but you can't choose to refer to bricks as "zxqrtlpfgf", simply because nobody would understand your communication.  You might spell it as "briks", and people would probably "get" it.  So, why not do that?  It'd work.  It's more "logical", it's more efficient, it has everything going for it.  But once you start doing that sort of stuff, you're committed to widening your campaign; you can't stop at just one word.  Yet you have, as far as I can tell, stopped at "it's", which tells me it's not a serious and committed attempt at "reform" of the language.  There are so many illogicalities in English, that picking just one word to fix is futile and pointless, less than a drop in the ocean.  You call it "modest".  To the extent that it's the understatement of the century, I agree with that.  So, we come back to you having a sense of control, and now that you've told us what this is really all about, you don't need to keep on doing it.  Do you, Stu. --  [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;"><sup>[your turn]</sup></span>]] 20:36, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::: <small> The above psychotherapy session was provided ''pro bono'', as a public service.  Future consultations will attract my usual fee.  :) --  [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;"><sup>[your turn]</sup></span>]] 20:45, 5 July 2011 (UTC) </small>

:::::::I might consider ignoring all the idiotic rules of English, and just start spelling things phonetically from now on, but then ... evrywun wud think I was ignorant uv the rulz, rather than just having contempt for them.  However, I do sometimes use the "thru" spelling and refuse to put the double quote after a period ending a sentence, since "the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step". [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 22:08, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::::: That's a good thing (not having a double quote after a period).  Logic does indeed have its place in language.  Some languages are highly logicsl in their structure, spelling and pronunciation.  English is ... less so.  That's not a criticism, just an observation.  Because where does it say that languages have to be 100% logical?  They are what they are.  English is now virtually the world language, despite all the flaws, illogicalities, inconsistencies and internal variety it exults in.  That's not to say it can never change; it changes all the time, as any healthy language does.  But to try to force a change based on your idea of what the "logical" thing should be is doomed to failure.  It's like deciding who to fall in love with and marry, based on some scientific, rational assessment of potential candidates.  It just doesn't work that way.  Same with language; language employs logic where it meets a need, but it is essentially and at its core non-logical (that's not illogical, although it sometimes is that, too).  --  [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;"><sup>[your turn]</sup></span>]] 22:27, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::[[Psychotherapy]] begins with [[Psychoanalysis]] which provides many theories and few sure cures. It would be harsh to subject StuRat to such probings without his prior agreement that there is a mental condition that needs attention. We are not qualified to conclude any such thing, far less treat it. We can only ask questions and observe behaviour in Wikipedia. StuRat displays the following peculiarities.
:::::::::* Contempt for the rules of English, that StuRat derides as idiotic and illogical, supported by his claim to have exposed the ambiguity of ITS. This if it were a novel discovery would make StuRat a Notable Person.
:::::::::* Activism. StuRat clearly intends to continue exploiting the protected (against editing) environment of the ref desks as a platform for demonstrating his preferred modifications to English.
:::::::::* Irresponsibility. The effect of StuRat's unorthodox writing inserted alongside other responses in normal English, particularly on those who ask for help at the desks and often are not themselves skilled in English, doesn't seem to register to him. StuRat attempts to isolate himself from all responsibility by his fatuous claim that his actions are not errors because he wants to do them.
:::::::::* Asociality. StuRat is aware of possibly upsetting others but not in any sympathetic way. He uses upsetting as a ploy. Thus my questions must be because I am unreasonably "upset", and if StuRat thinks he has baited someone, that is cause to jeer.
:::::::::I don't think that a yearning for control, as Jack suggests, explains all of this. Returning to the analogy of the little girl and her "sheeps", she decides that she will call woolly animals "sheep" in singular and "wolf" in plural. Thus the problem is solved, and you can't blame a little girl for liking to get attention. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 19:02, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

===Chiming out===
I agree with Jack's posts here. StuRat makes valuable contributions to the ref desks and has recently helped me personally. We seriously need closure on this subject that if unchecked will continue to disrupt ref. desks in public view. StuRat has rightly said:
*(to Buddy431) "..the Ref Desk is a collaborative effort, and we each police each other. Do you feel you can just ignore all the rules ?"
*(to Jack of Oz) "OK, that one actually was a mistake, I will fix it....I'll fix that one, too." Good to his word, StuRat fixed both mentioned mistakes.

I think enough time has been spent on StuRat's observation that ITS can in a rare context be a plurality of IT. The general reaction is "So what? English has lots of unlikely and seemingly illogical features." Consensus is that StuRat's argument gives '''no justification for one responder at the ref. desks to deliberately deviate from conventional English'''. I think StuRat must '''stop''' his unilateral effort at reforming English grammar in the "front window" of Wikipedia. StuRat's unconventional punctuations that until now have been under administrator's radar can, if continued, develop into a perceived [[WP:POINT]] disruption. That serious situation will not be helped by claiming that the unorthodox writing was done deliberately for an allegedly good cause, because the ref. desks shall not be used for language experiments.

It would be good to have an assurance from StuRat that he will stop his campaign for a new system of English punctuation. He remains free to discuss punctuation both on his page and as a subject at RD/L. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 13:28, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

:You seriously think any admin would "take action" because you are upset at my punctuation ?  I would think the reaction to your last "Request for comment" would show you how unreasonable it is for you to pursue this further.  Admins enforce Wikipedia rules, not spelling rules on talk pages like the Ref Desk.  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:34, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

::Deliberately flouting [[WP:MOS]] on ref.desks where you should be cooperating with other editors is disruptive. The MOS has clear rules about standard English punctuation, as you well know. If you want to persuade anyone that the language we use in English Wikipedia needs your idea for reforming, you must seek consensus at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style Talk:MOS]. You have not tried that, nor do I see any post from you at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Apostrophe Talk:Apostrophe] or even [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ITS Talk:ITS]. Please think carefully about what you are doing, not just about how long you may "get away with it". In this thread you appear to be obdurate in opposing the MOS, myself and Jack of Oz. If you don't have anything constructive to add, [[WP:WQA]] is indicated as a first step towards resolving our dispute. [[User:Cuddlyable3|Cuddlyable3]] ([[User talk:Cuddlyable3|talk]]) 11:35, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

:::The Manual of Style applies to articles, not to talk pages, like the Ref Desk.  You've annoyed me quite enough now, please go away. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:52, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

::: Cuddlyable3, you may have missed me saying above that I have long since ceased trying to make Stu change his ways.  My sole interest here now is curiosity (''"Lord, grant that I may seek to understand than to be understood."'')  Oh, sure, it'd be nice if he listened to the voice of reason that you and I have been speaking, but at the end of the day he's allowed to spell things any damn way he pleases, for whatever weird or sane reasons he may have.  I do believe you're treating this as if he's broken some law and is hurting innocent people.  It's only spelling.  It is not the stuff of formal disputes.  Time to let go and move on to more productive pursuits.  If you choose to continue, you won't have my support.  Best. --  [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;"><sup>[your turn]</sup></span>]] 11:44, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

== Comments at [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous]] ==

I was so tempted to revert your edits to that page in bulk.  Due to [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous&diff=prev&oldid=442301402 this edit] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FMiscellaneous&action=historysubmit&diff=442302857&oldid=442302574 this edit].  Speaking down to other editors like that does not help the goals of the project.  In fact, one of those editors is under mentorship for his behavior so poor examples like this do not help.  In the future, try to be a little more [[WP:CIVIL|civil]] and maybe take a look at [[Wikipedia:Etiquette]].<tt>  </tt>[[User:Ryan Vesey|'''''Ryan''''']] [[User talk:Ryan Vesey|'''''Vesey''''']] [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Ryan Vesey|<small>Review me!</small>]] 04:25, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

:OK, I'll try to tone it down, but it's frustrating that so many seem to think "Question" or "mmm..." is a useful title. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:31, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

::Thanks.  I have no problem with the title being changed, it was just the comments that irked me.  Sadly, the reference desk isn't the only place where poor section titles are left.  The [[WP:HD|help desk]] is usually full of poor titles; although, I don't see many right now.  Anything is better than [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&diff=prev&oldid=440658236 no section title] though, don't you think?<tt>  </tt>[[User:Ryan Vesey|'''''Ryan''''']] [[User talk:Ryan Vesey|'''''Vesey''''']] [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Ryan Vesey|<small>Review me!</small>]] 04:42, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

:::Actually, I have more patience with that type of error, since it probably just means they don't know how to use a wiki.  That is a more specialized skill than knowing how to come up with a title.  Everyone learns that in elementary school. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 05:02, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

::::(edit conflicted with three comments at once) Yeah, the comment made me respond back in tone (“Oh...umm...then can you please ''help me with my question''? to “Oh...umm...(to be “blunt”) then do you mind to kindly ''help me with my question''?”). And not “everyone learns that in elementary school”; that's an assumption. Just a comment. (sorry, kind of “blunt”) '''''[[User:Since 10.28.2010|<span style="color:#DAA520;">An</span>]] [[User talk:Since 10.28.2010|<span style="color:#DAA520;">editor since 10.28.2010.</span>]]''''' 05:27, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

:::::Really ?  You never had to write "What I did on summer vacation" on top of a paper, as the title ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 05:39, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

===hi (What's wrong with random section titles ?)===

Hi. Please tell me how [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FMiscellaneous&action=historysubmit&diff=442302857&oldid=442302574 this] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FMiscellaneous&action=historysubmit&diff=442302857&oldid=442302574#mmm..._.282011_FIFA_U-20_World_Cup_on_television.29 shortcut]) is “incredibly useless”. '''''[[User:Since 10.28.2010|<span style="color:#DAA520;">An</span>]] [[User talk:Since 10.28.2010|<span style="color:#DAA520;">editor since 10.28.2010.</span>]]''''' 04:47, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

:His reasoning was that "mmm" gave no indication to the subject of the question/problem you were having.  If you look at the section directly above, you will see that the issue was discussed already.<tt>  </tt>[[User:Ryan Vesey|'''''Ryan''''']] [[User talk:Ryan Vesey|'''''Vesey''''']] [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Ryan Vesey|<small>Review me!</small>]] 04:53, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

:Your title was just "mmm...".  We see that title in at least 5 places:

:1) Right above the question.  This is probably the only place you had considered, thinking we could read the actual question to find out what you meant to ask.

:2) At the table of contents at the top of the page.

:3) On our watch-lists.

:4) In the history page.

:5) As the search term in the archive pages.

:In all but the first case, we have the question title only, and no actual question, so it's critical that the title give us some clue as to what the question is about.  Otherwise, all those lists become completely useless. 

:Also,  the title of this section ("hi") is also of no help.  A section title should describe the contents of the section.  Therefore, I will change this title, too. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:58, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

::Well, obviously you can change titles on your own talk page, but I see the other change as somewhat disputable. I thank you for the explanation (as that is the ''only'' reason I came here for). '''''[[User:Since 10.28.2010|<span style="color:#DAA520;">An</span>]] [[User talk:Since 10.28.2010|<span style="color:#DAA520;">editor since 10.28.2010.</span>]]''''' 05:01, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

:::You're welcome, and sorry for being so harsh. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 05:05, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

::::You better be sorry :) (to clear any miasunderstanding, the preceding was a joke and not in any way an insult, as you can see from the “:)”. any insulting or offending statements are coincidential and unintentional. I see you have received multiple and numerous barnstars for your humor, so I see you have almost no problem with this)

:::{{ec}}Actually, it is not disputable at all.  Please read this quote from [[WP:Talk page guidelines]]. <blockquote>* '''{{anchord|Section headings}}''': Because threads are shared by multiple editors (regardless how many have posted so far), no one, including the original poster, "owns" a talk page discussion or its heading. It is generally acceptable to change headings when a better header is appropriate, e.g. one more descriptive of the content of the discussion or the issue discussed, less one-sided, more appropriate for [[Wikipedia:Accessibility|accessibility reasons]], etc. To avoid disputes it is best to discuss a heading change with the editor who started the thread, if possible, when a change is likely to be controversial. It can also sometimes be appropriate to merge entire sections under one heading (often preserving the later one as a subheading) if their discussions are redundant. In order to ensure links to the previous section heading (including automatically generated links in watchlists and histories) continue to work, one should use one of the following templates to [[HTML anchor|anchor]] the old title: {{tl|formerly}}, {{tl|anchord}}, {{tl|anchor}}.</blockquote><tt>  </tt>[[User:Ryan Vesey|'''''Ryan''''']] [[User talk:Ryan Vesey|'''''Vesey''''']] [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Ryan Vesey|<small>Review me!</small>]] 05:06, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

::::To be “blunt”, did you not read it? I said “''I see'' the other change as somewhat disputable”. I. Sorry, don't have enough time to read a long quote, ''may'' read it later. '''''[[User:Since 10.28.2010|<span style="color:#DAA520;">An</span>]] [[User talk:Since 10.28.2010|<span style="color:#DAA520;">editor since 10.28.2010.</span>]]''''' 05:27, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

:BTW, the reason I left your original title and added mine in parenthesis was so that anyone doing a page find on the old name would still find it. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 05:43, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

== Reference Desk Removal ==

[[user:Looie496]] has removed one of your contributions of the reference desk [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous&diff=442400958&oldid=442400714].  It is being discussed on the [[Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#Removed Section]]. [[User:Buddy432|Buddy432]] ([[User talk:Buddy432|talk]]) 03:25, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

:Thanks for the notice ! [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 03:28, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
== [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|Proposed deletion]] of [[George Withers]] ==
[[Image:Ambox warning yellow.svg|left|link=|48px|]]

The article [[George Withers]] has been [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed for deletion]]&#32; because of the following concern:
:'''Unreferenced article that doesn't indicate the notability of the subject.'''

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be [[WP:DEL#REASON|deleted for any of several reasons]].

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your [[Help:edit summary|edit summary]] or on [[Talk:George Withers|the article's talk page]].

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== Nomination of [[Comparison of CECB units]] for deletion ==

<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">[[File:Ambox warning orange.svg|42px|alt=|link=]]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article '''[[Comparison of CECB units]]''' is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to [[Wikipedia:List of policies and guidelines|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]] or whether it should be [[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|deleted]].

The article will be discussed at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comparison of CECB units]] until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion.  However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. --[[User:Gh87|Gh87]] ([[User talk:Gh87|talk]]) 05:27, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

==FORTRAN==
OP here...regarding the FORTRAN code thread I started on the computing reference desk, the files files I gave you were for the 6th orbit of the satellite (hence the name cr0006) and I couldn't get any info to give you about that orbit.  But I was able to find some info about later orbits.  So for orbit #190, [http://nssdcftp.gsfc.nasa.gov/spacecraft_data/crres/aerospace_agency_tapes/tape_headers/orbit_006-365/cr0190.hed here] is the header file and [http://nssdcftp.gsfc.nasa.gov/spacecraft_data/crres/ephemeris/data/orbit_006-365/cr0190.eph here] is the ephemeris file.  So when you run the FORTRAN code on these two files it should print out [http://nssdcftp.gsfc.nasa.gov/spacecraft_data/crres/ephemeris/document/EPHFORMT.TXT about 60 pieces of data].  Some of the columns should look like [http://vmo.igpp.ucla.edu/data1/CRRES/MAG/PT2S/CRRES_MAG_2s_0190.dat this] where we have year, month, day, hour, minute, seconds, x-component of Earth's magnetic field, y-component, z-component, the total magnetic field, B-Theta, and B-Phi.  The Julian date might be referred to as day of the year (which is 284 for October 11, 1990).  The files we are trying to process contain extra information such as altitude (which is exactly why we are trying to process them).  So this data should be enough to tell you if the code is working or not.  Thanks, really appreciate this.  I can't begin to imagine why the principal investigator would use such highly non-standard libraries in the code and make it so difficult.[[User:A Real Kaiser|  -  Looking for Wisdom and Insight!]] ([[User talk:A Real Kaiser|talk]]) 22:02, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

:OK, hopefully that's enough info for me to make some progress.  I'll take a look and see what I can do. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 22:53, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

:Now I get this info extracted from the header file:

 Vehicle ID    =          861                    Experiment ID =            1
 Orbit Number  =          190                    Julian Date   =        48175
 Year          =           90                    Day of Year   =          284
 UT Start of Data = 76322.305                    UT End of Data =   *********
 UT First Perigee = 76427.000                    VTCW at Start =      3272820
 VTCW at End   =      32B6980                    Agency Tape Date =   1990311
 Missing Maj Frames         5                    Filled Minor Frms         20

 Penumbra Start =   77124.000                    Penumbra Stop =    79944.000
 Umbra Start   =    77143.000                    Umbra Stop    =    79906.000
 Penumbra Start =      -0.001                    Penumbra Stop =       -0.001
 Umbra Start   =       -0.001                    Umbra Stop    =       -0.001
 VTCW          =      3272820                    UT            =    76322.305
 VTCW          =      32B6980                    UT            =    *********
 VTCW          =     FFFFFFFF                    UT            =       -0.001

:Some of that looks good, like "Year = 90", while some of it looks rather suspect, like the Julian Date and values printed as asterisks.  I need you to tell me which of those fields are right, and which are wrong. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 23:41, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Wow, amazing.  Sorry I took so long to respond.  I was trying to see if I can get a hold of at least some processed data and I did.  For this orbit, orbit #190, the header info you have up there is all 100% correct (including the asterisks and zeros).  All the fields have the same exact values to all the decimal places shown.  So this is a very good sign.  If you were to run this code on the ephemeris file, this is the output you should get.  The columns are UT, altitude, latitude, longitude, B, L, B0.

{{Collapse top}}
 76320.,  408.,-17.09,285.98,21484.6, 1.12,21434.6

 76380.,  379.,-17.60,291.04,21195.1, 1.13,21143.1

 76440.,  373.,-17.97,296.15,20798.7, 1.14,20704.3

 76500.,  390.,-18.19,301.27,20355.8, 1.15,20127.8

 76560.,  428.,-18.26,306.35,19900.9, 1.16,19376.7

 76620.,  488.,-18.18,311.36,19436.0, 1.18,18420.1

 76680.,  568.,-17.97,316.26,18941.8, 1.21,17284.8

 76740.,  669.,-17.63,321.01,18394.8, 1.24,16050.2

 76800.,  787.,-17.18,325.58,17780.1, 1.27,14811.8

 76860.,  923.,-16.64,329.96,17095.2, 1.30,13646.7

 76920., 1075.,-16.03,334.13,16346.9, 1.34,12599.9

 76980., 1240.,-15.35,338.09,15548.4, 1.37,11685.5

 77040., 1418.,-14.63,341.84,14715.4, 1.40,10896.2

 77100., 1608.,-13.89,345.38,13865.2, 1.43,10214.1

 77160., 1808.,-13.12,348.72,13013.9, 1.46, 9617.9

 77220., 2017.,-12.34,351.86,12176.5, 1.49, 9087.8

 77280., 2233.,-11.57,354.81,11365.1, 1.52, 8607.6

 77340., 2456.,-10.80,357.58,10589.2, 1.55, 8164.9

 77400., 2684.,-10.04,  0.19, 9855.3, 1.57, 7750.9

 77460., 2917., -9.30,  2.65, 9167.2, 1.60, 7359.8

 77520., 3155., -8.57,  4.96, 8526.6, 1.63, 6987.8

 77580., 3396., -7.86,  7.14, 7933.5, 1.66, 6632.9

 77640., 3639., -7.18,  9.19, 7386.4, 1.69, 6293.9

 77700., 3885., -6.52, 11.13, 6883.1, 1.72, 5970.1

 77760., 4132., -5.88, 12.95, 6421.1, 1.75, 5661.4

 77820., 4381., -5.26, 14.68, 5997.3, 1.78, 5367.5

 77880., 4630., -4.66, 16.31, 5608.7, 1.81, 5088.4

 77940., 4880., -4.09, 17.86, 5252.4, 1.84, 4823.9

 78000., 5131., -3.54, 19.33, 4925.5, 1.88, 4573.7

 78060., 5381., -3.00, 20.72, 4625.5, 1.91, 4337.5

 78120., 5632., -2.49, 22.04, 4349.7, 1.94, 4114.8

 78180., 5882., -2.00, 23.30, 4096.1, 1.98, 3905.0

 78240., 6131., -1.52, 24.49, 3862.1, 2.01, 3705.4

 78300., 6380., -1.07, 25.63, 3644.0, 2.05, 3517.2

 78360., 6627., -0.63, 26.71, 3442.3, 2.08, 3340.2

 78420., 6874., -0.20, 27.75, 3255.5, 2.12, 3173.7

 78480., 7120.,  0.21, 28.74, 3082.3, 2.16, 3017.2

 78540., 7365.,  0.60, 29.68, 2921.4, 2.19, 2870.0

 78600., 7608.,  0.98, 30.58, 2771.8, 2.23, 2731.5

 78660., 7851.,  1.35, 31.44, 2632.5, 2.27, 2601.3

 78720., 8092.,  1.70, 32.27, 2502.5, 2.30, 2478.6

 78780., 8331.,  2.04, 33.06, 2381.1, 2.34, 2363.2

 78840., 8569.,  2.37, 33.82, 2267.6, 2.38, 2254.3

 78900., 8806.,  2.69, 34.55, 2161.3, 2.41, 2151.7

 78960., 9041.,  3.00, 35.25, 2061.5, 2.45, 2054.9

 79020., 9275.,  3.30, 35.92, 1967.9, 2.49, 1963.5

 79080., 9507.,  3.59, 36.56, 1881.6, 2.53, 1879.0

 79140., 9737.,  3.87, 37.18, 1802.2, 2.56, 1800.8

 79200., 9966.,  4.14, 37.77, 1727.7, 2.60, 1727.0

 79260.,10194.,  4.40, 38.34, 1657.6, 2.63, 1657.4

 79320.,10419.,  4.66, 38.89, 1591.6, 2.67, 1591.5

 79380.,10644.,  4.91, 39.42, 1529.4, 2.71, 1529.3

 79440.,10866.,  5.15, 39.93, 1470.7, 2.74, 1470.5

 79500.,11087.,  5.38, 40.42, 1415.3, 2.78, 1414.7

 79560.,11307.,  5.61, 40.90, 1363.0, 2.81, 1362.0

 79620.,11525.,  5.83, 41.35, 1313.5, 2.85, 1311.9

 79680.,11741.,  6.04, 41.79, 1266.6, 2.88, 1264.5

 79740.,11956.,  6.25, 42.22, 1222.2, 2.92, 1219.4

 79800.,12169.,  6.45, 42.63, 1180.1, 2.95, 1176.6

 79860.,12380.,  6.65, 43.02, 1140.2, 2.99, 1136.0

 79920.,12590.,  6.84, 43.40, 1102.3, 3.02, 1097.3

 79980.,12799.,  7.03, 43.77, 1066.2, 3.06, 1060.5

 80280.,13818.,  7.89, 45.42,  910.3, 3.23,  900.8

 80580.,14799.,  8.66, 46.81,  786.8, 3.39,  774.0

 80880.,15744.,  9.35, 47.98,  687.7, 3.55,  671.9

 81180.,16654.,  9.96, 48.97,  607.0, 3.71,  588.8

 81480.,17530., 10.52, 49.79,  540.5, 3.87,  520.2

 81780.,18374., 11.02, 50.47,  485.3, 4.02,  463.3

 82080.,19186., 11.48, 51.04,  438.9, 4.16,  415.5

 82380.,19969., 11.90, 51.50,  399.7, 4.31,  375.1

 82680.,20722., 12.29, 51.87,  366.3, 4.44,  340.7

 82980.,21447., 12.65, 52.16,  337.6, 4.57,  311.3

 83280.,22146., 12.99, 52.37,  313.0, 4.70,  285.9

 83580.,22818., 13.30, 52.52,  291.6, 4.82,  264.0

 83880.,23464., 13.59, 52.61,  272.9, 4.94,  244.9

 84180.,24086., 13.86, 52.65,  256.7, 5.06,  228.2

 84480.,24684., 14.11, 52.64,  242.3, 5.16,  213.6

 84780.,25258., 14.35, 52.58,  229.7, 5.27,  200.8

 85080.,25810., 14.57, 52.49,  218.6, 5.37,  189.4

 85380.,26339., 14.78, 52.36,  208.7, 5.46,  179.4

 85680.,26847., 14.98, 52.20,  199.9, 5.55,  170.5

 85980.,27334., 15.17, 52.01,  192.0, 5.64,  162.5

 86280.,27800., 15.35, 51.79,  185.0, 5.72,  155.5

 86580.,28245., 15.52, 51.54,  178.7, 5.80,  149.1

 86880.,28671., 15.68, 51.27,  173.0, 5.87,  143.4

 87180.,29077., 15.83, 50.98,  167.9, 5.94,  138.3

 87480.,29463., 15.98, 50.67,  163.3, 6.00,  133.7

 87780.,29831., 16.12, 50.34,  159.2, 6.07,  129.5

 88080.,30180., 16.25, 49.99,  155.5, 6.12,  125.7

 88380.,30511., 16.37, 49.63,  152.1, 6.18,  122.3

 88680.,30824., 16.49, 49.25,  149.0, 6.23,  119.2

 88980.,31119., 16.61, 48.86,  146.3, 6.28,  116.4

 89280.,31396., 16.72, 48.46,  143.8, 6.33,  113.9

 89580.,31656., 16.82, 48.05,  141.5, 6.37,  111.6

 89880.,31898., 16.92, 47.63,  139.5, 6.41,  109.5

 90180.,32123., 17.01, 47.20,  137.7, 6.45,  107.6

 90480.,32332., 17.10, 46.76,  136.1, 6.48,  105.9

 90780.,32523., 17.19, 46.31,  134.7, 6.52,  104.4

 91080.,32698., 17.27, 45.85,  133.4, 6.54,  103.0

 91380.,32857., 17.35, 45.39,  132.3, 6.57,  101.8

 91680.,32999., 17.43, 44.93,  131.4, 6.60,  100.7

 91980.,33124., 17.50, 44.46,  130.6, 6.62,   99.7

 92280.,33234., 17.57, 43.98,  130.0, 6.64,   98.9

 92580.,33327., 17.63, 43.50,  129.5, 6.66,   98.2

 92880.,33404., 17.69, 43.02,  129.1, 6.67,   97.6

 93180.,33465., 17.75, 42.54,  128.9, 6.68,   97.1

 93480.,33509., 17.80, 42.05,  128.7, 6.69,   96.7

 93780.,33538., 17.86, 41.57,  128.8, 6.70,   96.4

 94080.,33551., 17.90, 41.08,  128.9, 6.71,   96.2

 94380.,33548., 17.95, 40.60,  129.2, 6.71,   96.2

 94680.,33529., 17.99, 40.11,  129.6, 6.71,   96.2

 94980.,33494., 18.03, 39.63,  130.1, 6.71,   96.3

 95280.,33442., 18.07, 39.15,  130.8, 6.70,   96.5

 95580.,33375., 18.10, 38.67,  131.6, 6.70,   96.9

 95880.,33292., 18.13, 38.19,  132.5, 6.69,   97.3

 96180.,33192., 18.16, 37.72,  133.6, 6.68,   97.9

 96480.,33076., 18.18, 37.25,  134.8, 6.66,   98.5

 96780.,32944., 18.21, 36.79,  136.2, 6.65,   99.3

 97080.,32796., 18.22, 36.33,  137.8, 6.63,  100.2

 97380.,32631., 18.24, 35.88,  139.5, 6.61,  101.3

 97680.,32449., 18.25, 35.44,  141.4, 6.58,  102.4

 97980.,32251., 18.26, 35.00,  143.5, 6.55,  103.7

 98280.,32036., 18.27, 34.58,  145.9, 6.52,  105.2

 98580.,31804., 18.27, 34.16,  148.4, 6.49,  106.9

 98880.,31555., 18.27, 33.76,  151.2, 6.45,  108.7

 99180.,31288., 18.26, 33.36,  154.3, 6.41,  110.7

 99480.,31004., 18.25, 32.98,  157.6, 6.37,  113.0

 99780.,30702., 18.24, 32.62,  161.3, 6.33,  115.4

100080.,30382., 18.22, 32.26,  165.3, 6.28,  118.2

100380.,30044., 18.19, 31.93,  169.7, 6.22,  121.2

100680.,29688., 18.17, 31.61,  174.5, 6.17,  124.6

100980.,29312., 18.13, 31.31,  179.8, 6.11,  128.4

101280.,28918., 18.09, 31.03,  185.5, 6.04,  132.6

101580.,28504., 18.05, 30.77,  191.9, 5.97,  137.2

101880.,28071., 18.00, 30.53,  198.8, 5.90,  142.4

102180.,27617., 17.94, 30.33,  206.5, 5.82,  148.2

102480.,27143., 17.87, 30.15,  215.0, 5.74,  154.6

102780.,26648., 17.80, 30.00,  224.4, 5.66,  161.9

103080.,26132., 17.72, 29.88,  234.9, 5.57,  170.1

103380.,25594., 17.63, 29.80,  246.5, 5.47,  179.4

103680.,25033., 17.52, 29.76,  259.5, 5.37,  189.8

103980.,24449., 17.41, 29.76,  274.0, 5.26,  201.7

104280.,23842., 17.28, 29.82,  290.4, 5.15,  215.3

104580.,23211., 17.14, 29.92,  308.8, 5.04,  230.9

104880.,22554., 16.98, 30.08,  329.8, 4.91,  248.8

105180.,21872., 16.81, 30.31,  353.7, 4.79,  269.6

105480.,21163., 16.61, 30.61,  381.1, 4.66,  293.8

105780.,20426., 16.40, 30.99,  412.7, 4.52,  322.1

106080.,19662., 16.15, 31.45,  449.4, 4.37,  355.5

106380.,18867., 15.88, 32.02,  492.4, 4.22,  395.3

106680.,18043., 15.57, 32.71,  543.1, 4.07,  443.0

106980.,17186., 15.22, 33.53,  603.5, 3.91,  500.7

107280.,16297., 14.82, 34.50,  676.2, 3.74,  571.5

107580.,15373., 14.36, 35.64,  764.9, 3.57,  659.2

107880.,14414., 13.84, 36.99,  874.4, 3.39,  769.3

108180.,13418., 13.23, 38.58, 1011.9, 3.21,  909.7

108240.,13214., 13.10, 38.93, 1043.6, 3.17,  942.4

108300.,13009., 12.96, 39.30, 1076.9, 3.14,  976.8

108360.,12802., 12.82, 39.67, 1112.0, 3.10, 1013.1

108420.,12593., 12.67, 40.06, 1148.9, 3.06, 1051.4

108480.,12383., 12.52, 40.47, 1187.7, 3.02, 1091.9

108540.,12172., 12.36, 40.88, 1228.8, 2.98, 1134.7

108600.,11959., 12.20, 41.31, 1272.1, 2.95, 1179.9

108660.,11744., 12.04, 41.76, 1317.8, 2.91, 1227.9

108720.,11528., 11.86, 42.22, 1366.2, 2.87, 1278.7

108780.,11310., 11.68, 42.70, 1417.5, 2.83, 1332.6

108840.,11090., 11.50, 43.20, 1471.8, 2.79, 1389.8

108900.,10869., 11.31, 43.71, 1529.5, 2.75, 1450.6

108960.,10647., 11.11, 44.25, 1590.7, 2.71, 1515.2

109020.,10423., 10.90, 44.80, 1655.9, 2.67, 1584.1

109080.,10197., 10.69, 45.37, 1725.3, 2.63, 1657.4

109140., 9969., 10.46, 45.97, 1799.3, 2.59, 1735.6

109200., 9740., 10.23, 46.59, 1878.3, 2.55, 1819.2

109260., 9510.,  9.99, 47.23, 1962.8, 2.51, 1908.5

109320., 9278.,  9.74, 47.90, 2055.8, 2.47, 2005.7

109380., 9044.,  9.48, 48.59, 2155.5, 2.43, 2110.8

109440., 8809.,  9.21, 49.31, 2262.3, 2.39, 2223.2

109500., 8572.,  8.93, 50.06, 2376.9, 2.35, 2343.6

109560., 8334.,  8.63, 50.84, 2500.3, 2.30, 2472.7

109620., 8095.,  8.33, 51.65, 2633.2, 2.26, 2611.3

109680., 7854.,  8.01, 52.50, 2776.6, 2.22, 2760.3

109740., 7612.,  7.67, 53.38, 2931.8, 2.18, 2920.5

109800., 7368.,  7.33, 54.30, 3099.9, 2.14, 3093.2

109860., 7123.,  6.96, 55.27, 3282.3, 2.10, 3279.4

109920., 6877.,  6.58, 56.27, 3480.9, 2.06, 3480.3

109980., 6630.,  6.18, 57.32, 3697.4, 2.02, 3697.3

110040., 6383.,  5.76, 58.42, 3933.9, 1.97, 3931.9

110100., 6134.,  5.32, 59.57, 4190.7, 1.93, 4183.4

110160., 5884.,  4.87, 60.77, 4473.0, 1.89, 4455.9

110220., 5635.,  4.38, 62.04, 4784.0, 1.85, 4751.0

110280., 5384.,  3.88, 63.36, 5127.5, 1.81, 5070.7

110340., 5134.,  3.35, 64.75, 5507.8, 1.77, 5416.9

110400., 4883.,  2.79, 66.22, 5930.0, 1.74, 5791.3

110460., 4633.,  2.21, 67.76, 6399.9, 1.70, 6195.8

110520., 4383.,  1.59, 69.38, 6924.3, 1.66, 6631.8

110580., 4135.,  0.95, 71.09, 7510.8, 1.62, 7100.5

110640., 3887.,  0.27, 72.89, 8168.6, 1.58, 7602.4

110700., 3641., -0.44, 74.79, 8907.7, 1.55, 8137.1

110760., 3398., -1.19, 76.80, 9739.9, 1.51, 8703.2

110820., 3157., -1.97, 78.93,10678.0, 1.48, 9297.7

110880., 2920., -2.79, 81.18,11736.1, 1.45, 9915.9

110940., 2686., -3.64, 83.57,12929.2, 1.42,10550.8

111000., 2458., -4.53, 86.10,14272.3, 1.39,11193.4

111060., 2235., -5.46, 88.78,15779.1, 1.37,11832.1

111120., 2018., -6.42, 91.63,17460.4, 1.34,12453.8

111180., 1810., -7.41, 94.65,19321.4, 1.32,13043.9

111240., 1610., -8.42, 97.85,21358.3, 1.30,13587.4

111300., 1420., -9.46,101.24,23554.6, 1.29,14070.1

111360., 1241.,-10.50,104.84,25877.9, 1.27,14479.0

111420., 1076.,-11.54,108.64,28277.9, 1.27,14803.3

111480.,  924.,-12.56,112.65,30687.0, 1.26,15033.9

111540.,  788.,-13.55,116.86,33024.2, 1.26,15164.6

111600.,  669.,-14.50,121.27,35201.1, 1.26,15194.3

111660.,  569.,-15.38,125.87,37126.9, 1.26,15130.7

111720.,  488.,-16.17,130.64,38711.8, 1.26,14994.8

111780.,  428.,-16.85,135.55,39868.7, 1.27,14822.4

111840.,  390.,-17.42,140.57,40518.5, 1.28,14658.7

111900.,  373.,-17.84,145.67,40602.0, 1.28,14547.4

111960.,  379.,-18.12,150.79,40095.3, 1.29,14517.9

112020.,  408.,-18.25,155.90,39019.2, 1.29,14577.1
{{Collapse bottom}}
Let me know how it agrees.  Thanks! [[User:A Real Kaiser|  -  Looking for Wisdom and Insight!]] ([[User talk:A Real Kaiser|talk]]) 19:49, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

:OK, thanks.  Now that I know everything is good so far, I'll keep going and let you know how it looks.  

:Also, just curious, what's up with that Julian Date ?  Does that mean the 175th day of 1948 (or 2048) ?  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 21:25, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

I didn't know about this myself.  [[Julian day]] here it is.[[User:A Real Kaiser|  -  Looking for Wisdom and Insight!]] ([[User talk:A Real Kaiser|talk]]) 04:22, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

:OK, but something else is missing.  The Julian date would be 2448175, not 48175, so the program must omit the first two digits.  I take it this is by design ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 05:45, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, I have no idea.  We are not concerned with too many of those parameters so I really don't know what most of them are (I guess they can be googled).  The header file info is just identification.  We are only concerned with a small part of the overall data available.  Others would be interested in the rest...depending on what they do I guess.  If I ever get to meet the original developer, I guess I can find out ;-) [[User:A Real Kaiser|  -  Looking for Wisdom and Insight!]] ([[User talk:A Real Kaiser|talk]]) 07:22, 10 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />


Hey not to be annoying but did you get the code to read the ephemeris files yet?  I understand if you are too busy.  You have already helped me so much.[[User:A Real Kaiser|  -  Looking for Wisdom and Insight!]] ([[User talk:A Real Kaiser|talk]]) 19:47, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

:I'm a bit busy at the moment, but should get a chance to look at the prog again this weekend. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:48, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Hey if you are done with it, I'll take whatever code you have working.  If it works, good!  Otherwise, I'll see what can I do with it.  Thanks for helping! [[User:A Real Kaiser|  -  Looking for Wisdom and Insight!]] ([[User talk:A Real Kaiser|talk]]) 19:46, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

:Not quite done, yet.  I'm going to do a bit more work on it next weekend.  BTW, if there's any way you could find out the contents of the ephemeris file, that would really help.  Right now I just have to guess if the things it is reading in are correct, which can lead to problems with where the least significant bit is located, etc. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:48, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah the output should be extended output I have posted above.[[User:A Real Kaiser|  -  Looking for Wisdom and Insight!]] ([[User talk:A Real Kaiser|talk]]) 23:47, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

:Right, and if I get that output, all's good.  But if I don't, then I have to figure out why, and part of that debugging would be to see if I'm reading in the correct data.  If I don't actually know the data and format in the input file, that debugging would be difficult to complete. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 23:55, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

So I looked around the documentation and the closest thing I found to an answer to your question I think is "Ephemeris data will be written in 32-bit positive integer form (31 data bits with the MSB set to O)".  Does that help?[[User:A Real Kaiser|  -  Looking for Wisdom and Insight!]] ([[User talk:A Real Kaiser|talk]]) 03:19, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

:A little bit.  In FORTRAN terminology, a 32-bit integer is a 4-byte integer, or INTEGER*4.  However, aren't there any real numbers or character strings included in the file ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 07:55, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Nope, from what I understand, all the variables stored in the input file are all 32-bit long signed integers.  Real values are represented by multiplying and adding some scaling factors.  I think the code has those built in so the output includes decimals.[[User:A Real Kaiser|  -  Looking for Wisdom and Insight!]] ([[User talk:A Real Kaiser|talk]]) 18:21, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

:OK, thanks, that will help. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:00, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

:Are you still interested in this ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 00:53, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to reply a bit late, started working on other parts of the project.  If you were able to make some progress on this or if you fixed up the code, I would really appreciate it.  Thanks![[User:A Real Kaiser|  -  Looking for Wisdom and Insight!]] ([[User talk:A Real Kaiser|talk]]) 02:27, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

== Cumulative position probabilities as a result of tossing dice ==

Hi StuRat!  You seemed interested in the behavior of the probabilities, so I computed some more values for you. (A Perl program this time, enabling cut and paste -- a big improvement over transcription from my calculator screen!) Note that the period column is the distance from one extremum to the previous one of the same type, and the half_period column is the distance to the previous extremum of the opposite type.

{{Collapse top|title=One die -- 1-100}}
   n  probability         diff from limit   ext  period  half_period 
   1: 0.166666666666667  -0.119047619047619
   2: 0.194444444444444  -0.091269841269841
   3: 0.226851851851852  -0.058862433862434
   4: 0.264660493827160  -0.021053791887125
   5: 0.308770576131687  +0.023056290417402
   6: 0.360232338820302  +0.074518053106016  HI
   7: 0.253604395290352  -0.032109890423934  LO
   8: 0.268094016727633  -0.017620268986653
   9: 0.280368945441498  -0.005345340272788
  10: 0.289288461039772  +0.003574175325486
  11: 0.293393122241874  +0.007678836527588  HI  5  4
  12: 0.290830213260238  +0.005115927545953
  13: 0.279263192333561  -0.006451093380725  LO  6  2
  14: 0.283539658507429  -0.002174627206856
  15: 0.286113932137395  +0.000399646423110
  16: 0.287071429920045  +0.001357144205759  HI  5  3
  17: 0.286701924733424  +0.000987639019138
  18: 0.285586725148682  -0.000127560565604
  19: 0.284712810463423  -0.001001475250863  LO  6  3
  20: 0.285621080151733  -0.000093205562553
  21: 0.285967983759117  +0.000253698044831  HI  5  2
  22: 0.285943659029404  +0.000229373315118
  23: 0.285755697214297  +0.000041411500011
  24: 0.285597992627776  -0.000116293086510  LO  5  3
  25: 0.285599870540958  -0.000114415173327
  26: 0.285747713887214  +0.000033428172929
  27: 0.285768819509794  +0.000054533795509  HI  6  3
  28: 0.285735625468241  +0.000021339753955
  29: 0.285700953208047  -0.000013332506239
  30: 0.285691829207005  -0.000022456507281  LO  6  3
  31: 0.285707468636877  -0.000006817077409
  32: 0.285725401652863  +0.000011115938577  HI  5  2
  33: 0.285721682947138  +0.000007397232852
  34: 0.285713826853362  -0.000000458860924
  35: 0.285710193750882  -0.000004091963404  LO  5  3
  36: 0.285711733841354  -0.000002551872931
  37: 0.285715051280413  +0.000000765566127
  38: 0.285716315054335  +0.000002029340050  HI  6  3
  39: 0.285714800621247  +0.000000514906962
  40: 0.285713653566932  -0.000000632147354
  41: 0.285713624685861  -0.000000661028425  LO  6  3
  42: 0.285714196508357  -0.000000089205929
  43: 0.285714606952857  +0.000000321238572  HI  5  2
  44: 0.285714532898265  +0.000000247183979
  45: 0.285714235872253  -0.000000049842032
  46: 0.285714141747421  -0.000000143966865  LO  5  3
  47: 0.285714223110836  -0.000000062603450
  48: 0.285714322848332  +0.000000037134046
  49: 0.285714343904994  +0.000000058190708  HI  6  3
  50: 0.285714300063683  +0.000000014349398
  51: 0.285714261257920  -0.000000024456366  LO  5  2
  52: 0.285714265488864  -0.000000020225421
  53: 0.285714286112438  +0.000000000398152
  54: 0.285714296612705  +0.000000010898419  HI  5  3
  55: 0.285714292240101  +0.000000006525815
  56: 0.285714283629285  -0.000000002085001
  57: 0.285714280890219  -0.000000004824067  LO  6  3
  58: 0.285714284162269  -0.000000001552017
  59: 0.285714287274503  +0.000000001560217
  60: 0.285714287468180  +0.000000001753895  HI  6  3
  61: 0.285714285944093  +0.000000000229807
  62: 0.285714284894758  -0.000000000819528  LO  5  2
  63: 0.285714285105670  -0.000000000608615
  64: 0.285714285808245  +0.000000000093960
  65: 0.285714286082575  +0.000000000368289  HI  5  3
  66: 0.285714285883920  +0.000000000169635
  67: 0.285714285619877  -0.000000000094409
  68: 0.285714285565841  -0.000000000148445  LO  6  3
  69: 0.285714285677688  -0.000000000036598
  70: 0.285714285773024  +0.000000000058739  HI  5  2
  71: 0.285714285767154  +0.000000000052869
  72: 0.285714285714584  +0.000000000000298
  73: 0.285714285686361  -0.000000000027924  LO  5  3
  74: 0.285714285697442  -0.000000000016843
  75: 0.285714285719376  +0.000000000005090
  76: 0.285714285726324  +0.000000000012038  HI  6  3
  77: 0.285714285718540  +0.000000000004255
  78: 0.285714285710438  -0.000000000003848
  79: 0.285714285709747  -0.000000000004539  LO  6  3
  80: 0.285714285713644  -0.000000000000641
  81: 0.285714285716345  +0.000000000002059  HI  5  2
  82: 0.285714285715840  +0.000000000001554
  83: 0.285714285714092  -0.000000000000193
  84: 0.285714285713351  -0.000000000000935  LO  5  3
  85: 0.285714285713837  -0.000000000000449
  86: 0.285714285714518  +0.000000000000232
  87: 0.285714285714664  +0.000000000000378  HI  6  3
  88: 0.285714285714384  +0.000000000000098
  89: 0.285714285714141  -0.000000000000145  LO  5  2
  90: 0.285714285714149  -0.000000000000137
  91: 0.285714285714282  -0.000000000000004
  92: 0.285714285714356  +0.000000000000070  HI  5  3
  93: 0.285714285714329  +0.000000000000044
  94: 0.285714285714273  -0.000000000000012
  95: 0.285714285714255  -0.000000000000031  LO  6  3
  96: 0.285714285714274  -0.000000000000011
  97: 0.285714285714295  +0.000000000000009
  98: 0.285714285714297  +0.000000000000012  HI  6  3
  99: 0.285714285714287  +0.000000000000002
 100: 0.285714285714280  -0.000000000000005  LO  5  2
 
 Average period between maxima: (98 - 6) / (18 - 1) = 5.41176470588235
{{Collapse bottom}}

{{Collapse top|title=Two dice -- 1-150}}
   n  probability         diff from limit   ext  period  half_period 
   1: 0.000000000000000  -0.142857142857143
   2: 0.027777777777778  -0.115079365079365
   3: 0.055555555555556  -0.087301587301587
   4: 0.084104938271605  -0.058752204585538
   5: 0.114197530864198  -0.028659611992945
   6: 0.146626371742112  +0.003769228884970
   7: 0.182227366255144  +0.039370223398001  HI
   8: 0.166345759983234  +0.023488617126091
   9: 0.155526024996190  +0.012668882139047
  10: 0.147783795687692  +0.004926652830549
  11: 0.141275313987112  -0.001581828870030
  12: 0.134199441151658  -0.008657701705485
  13: 0.124703575323390  -0.018153567533753  LO
  14: 0.138567339985884  -0.004289802871259
  15: 0.145771350282075  +0.002914207424932
  16: 0.148354627183744  +0.005497484326601  HI  9  3
  17: 0.147889983414447  +0.005032840557304
  18: 0.145672338925150  +0.002815196068007
  19: 0.142886274610975  +0.000029131753832
  20: 0.140764094418021  -0.002093048439122
  21: 0.140744872286715  -0.002112270570427  LO  8  5
  22: 0.141558293889562  -0.001298848967581
  23: 0.142503054290152  -0.000354088566991
  24: 0.143243171224347  +0.000386028367204
  25: 0.143649910420996  +0.000792767563853
  26: 0.143670481132249  +0.000813338275106  HI  10  5
  27: 0.143207188969124  +0.000350046111981
  28: 0.142763608813836  -0.000093534043307
  29: 0.142528050732930  -0.000329092124213
  30: 0.142514760658092  -0.000342382199051  LO  9  4
  31: 0.142651801849006  -0.000205341008137
  32: 0.142836086293657  -0.000021056563486
  33: 0.142971433394364  +0.000114290537221
  34: 0.143002869896381  +0.000145727039238  HI  8  4
  35: 0.142959359946810  +0.000102217089668
  36: 0.142889015168303  +0.000031872311160
  37: 0.142829956855659  -0.000027186001484
  38: 0.142801528128473  -0.000055614728670  LO  8  4
  39: 0.142805773389582  -0.000051369467561
  40: 0.142832236336064  -0.000024906521079
  41: 0.142860646381712  +0.000003503524569
  42: 0.142877670465058  +0.000020527607915
  43: 0.142879971693433  +0.000022828836290  HI  9  5
  44: 0.142871561832545  +0.000014418975402
  45: 0.142859592522521  +0.000002449665378
  46: 0.142850528542199  -0.000006614314944
  47: 0.142847561204591  -0.000009581652552  LO  9  4
  48: 0.142849841804941  -0.000007301052202
  49: 0.142854500971623  -0.000002641885520
  50: 0.142858702250614  +0.000001559393471
  51: 0.142860806708505  +0.000003663851362  HI  8  4
  52: 0.142860608575119  +0.000003465717976
  53: 0.142858949193206  +0.000001806336063
  54: 0.142857061695371  -0.000000081161772
  55: 0.142855854007695  -0.000001288849448
  56: 0.142855619890867  -0.000001522966276  LO  9  5
  57: 0.142856130878425  -0.000001011978718
  58: 0.142856913455488  -0.000000229401655
  59: 0.142857532420994  +0.000000389563851
  60: 0.142857768743374  +0.000000625886231  HI  9  4
  61: 0.142857649377952  +0.000000506520809
  62: 0.142857349100241  +0.000000206243099
  63: 0.142857061109591  -0.000000081747552
  64: 0.142856906773639  -0.000000236083504  LO  8  4
  65: 0.142856908161610  -0.000000234695533
  66: 0.142857012006186  -0.000000130850957
  67: 0.142857137865007  -0.000000004992136
  68: 0.142857223063129  +0.000000080205986
  69: 0.142857244181161  +0.000000101324018  HI  9  5
  70: 0.142857213764569  +0.000000070907426
  71: 0.142857162593544  +0.000000019736401
  72: 0.142857120135652  -0.000000022721491
  73: 0.142857102085851  -0.000000040771292  LO  9  4
  74: 0.142857108060125  -0.000000034797018
  75: 0.142857127249226  -0.000000015607917
  76: 0.142857146744829  +0.000000003887687
  77: 0.142857157907003  +0.000000015049860
  78: 0.142857158679991  +0.000000015822848  HI  9  5
  79: 0.142857152255243  +0.000000009398100
  80: 0.142857143897575  +0.000000001040432
  81: 0.142857137927367  -0.000000004929776
  82: 0.142857136147172  -0.000000006709971  LO  9  4
  83: 0.142857137911701  -0.000000004945442
  84: 0.142857141243510  -0.000000001613633
  85: 0.142857144150075  +0.000000001292933
  86: 0.142857145501618  +0.000000002644475  HI  8  4
  87: 0.142857145234423  +0.000000002377281
  88: 0.142857144016301  +0.000000001159158
  89: 0.142857142704536  -0.000000000152607
  90: 0.142857141905739  -0.000000000951404
  91: 0.142857141795500  -0.000000001061643  LO  9  5
  92: 0.142857142188003  -0.000000000669139
  93: 0.142857142740246  -0.000000000116897
  94: 0.142857143155886  +0.000000000298743
  95: 0.142857143299270  +0.000000000442127  HI  9  4
  96: 0.142857143200167  +0.000000000343024
  97: 0.142857142984450  +0.000000000127307
  98: 0.142857142786294  -0.000000000070849
  99: 0.142857142686569  -0.000000000170574  LO  8  4
 100: 0.142857142695508  -0.000000000161635
 101: 0.142857142772239  -0.000000000084904
 102: 0.142857142860082  +0.000000000002939
 103: 0.142857142916765  +0.000000000059622
 104: 0.142857142928044  +0.000000000070901  HI  9  5
 105: 0.142857142904417  +0.000000000047275
 106: 0.142857142868109  +0.000000000010966
 107: 0.142857142839343  -0.000000000017800
 108: 0.142857142828159  -0.000000000028983  LO  9  4
 109: 0.142857142833480  -0.000000000023663
 110: 0.142857142847360  -0.000000000009783
 111: 0.142857142860807  +0.000000000003665
 112: 0.142857142868076  +0.000000000010933
 113: 0.142857142868081  +0.000000000010939  HI  9  5
 114: 0.142857142863292  +0.000000000006149
 115: 0.142857142857436  +0.000000000000293
 116: 0.142857142853443  -0.000000000003699
 117: 0.142857142852430  -0.000000000004713  LO  9  4
 118: 0.142857142853826  -0.000000000003317
 119: 0.142857142856201  -0.000000000000942
 120: 0.142857142858181  +0.000000000001038
 121: 0.142857142859033  +0.000000000001890  HI  8  4
 122: 0.142857142858767  +0.000000000001624
 123: 0.142857142857879  +0.000000000000737
 124: 0.142857142856971  -0.000000000000172
 125: 0.142857142856447  -0.000000000000696
 126: 0.142857142856406  -0.000000000000737  LO  9  5
 127: 0.142857142856702  -0.000000000000441
 128: 0.142857142857090  -0.000000000000053
 129: 0.142857142857370  +0.000000000000227
 130: 0.142857142857455  +0.000000000000312  HI  9  4
 131: 0.142857142857374  +0.000000000000231
 132: 0.142857142857220  +0.000000000000077
 133: 0.142857142857084  -0.000000000000059
 134: 0.142857142857020  -0.000000000000123  LO  8  4
 135: 0.142857142857032  -0.000000000000111
 136: 0.142857142857088  -0.000000000000055
 137: 0.142857142857149  +0.000000000000006
 138: 0.142857142857187  +0.000000000000044
 139: 0.142857142857192  +0.000000000000049  HI  9  5
 140: 0.142857142857174  +0.000000000000031
 141: 0.142857142857149  +0.000000000000006
 142: 0.142857142857129  -0.000000000000014
 143: 0.142857142857122  -0.000000000000021  LO  9  4
 144: 0.142857142857127  -0.000000000000016
 145: 0.142857142857137  -0.000000000000006
 146: 0.142857142857146  +0.000000000000003
 147: 0.142857142857151  +0.000000000000008  HI  8  4
 148: 0.142857142857150  +0.000000000000008
 149: 0.142857142857147  +0.000000000000004
 150: 0.142857142857143  -0.000000000000000
 
 Average period between maxima: (147 - 7) / (17 - 1) = 8.75
{{Collapse bottom}}

The damped oscillation about the limit seems quite reasonable for an iterative process dependent on a fair number of previous values.  Is there anything more to see here? -- [[Special:Contributions/110.49.248.249|110.49.248.249]] ([[User talk:110.49.248.249|talk]]) 02:02, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

:Thanks !  I wonder if there was a way we could have predicted the oscillation frequency, before running the simulation. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 03:29, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

::Can you follow Arthur Rubin's generating function ideas well enough to calculate his ''θ''? It shouldn't be too hard to write a program which would analyze and calculate the oscillation period given any probability distribution.  It could start by reporting on the behavior under one n-sided dice with values 1..n.  It would be interesting to compare such results to AR's number. -- [[Special:Contributions/110.49.227.166|110.49.227.166]] ([[User talk:110.49.227.166|talk]]) 00:54, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

:::Actually the math went a bit over my head when it went on to that and then matrices.   I am certainly competent to write a simulation program for the general case, though, if that would be helpful. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 01:41, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

==MESSAGE for StuRat==
Have you seen the Episode called World's Fair before?([[Special:Contributions/99.88.78.94|99.88.78.94]] ([[User talk:99.88.78.94|talk]]) 07:01, 17 September 2011 (UTC)).

:No, I just reformatted your question so others could better answer you. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 08:08, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

==FORTRAN Contd.==
Sorry to reply a bit late, started working on other parts of the project. If you were able to make some progress on this or if you fixed up the code, I would really appreciate it. Thanks![[User:A Real Kaiser|  -  Looking for Wisdom and Insight!]] ([[User talk:A Real Kaiser|talk]]) 00:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

:Oh, welcome back.  Would you like me to email it ?  What's your e-mail address ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 01:32, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Sure man thanks! its {{nospam|magictunnel8|gmail.com}}. [[User:A Real Kaiser|  -  Looking for Wisdom and Insight!]] ([[User talk:A Real Kaiser|talk]]) 06:28, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
:::<small>I {{tl|nospam}}med the email address. [[User:Franamax|Franamax]] ([[User talk:Franamax|talk]]) 06:48, 28 September 2011 (UTC)</small>

== [[Otium]] ==

This is my latest article. Feel free to make any improvements. --[[User:Doug Coldwell|Doug Coldwell]] <sup>[[User talk:Doug Coldwell|<span style="color:darkblue;">talk</span>]]</sup> 19:45, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

:Thanks for improvements.--[[User:Doug Coldwell|Doug Coldwell]] <sup>[[User talk:Doug Coldwell|<span style="color:darkblue;">talk</span>]]</sup> 19:55, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

::You're welcome. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 20:19, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

:::Expanded article. Any ideas for a DYK hook?--[[User:Doug Coldwell|Doug Coldwell]] <sup>[[User talk:Doug Coldwell|<span style="color:darkblue;">talk</span>]]</sup> 11:09, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

::::Since it's an unfamiliar word to most, how about just the definition (the first sentence of the article) ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 17:13, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

::::: I like your suggestion - even better than the one I came up with that has already been approved (See article Discussion). How might I change it or should I just leave well enough alone? --[[User:Doug Coldwell|Doug Coldwell]] <sup>[[User talk:Doug Coldwell|<span style="color:darkblue;">talk</span>]]</sup> 19:35, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

::::::That first sentence looks good as is, to me. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:45, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

:As for improving the article, perhaps a chart showing similarity and differences between the various philosophers' interpretations of odium might be in order. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:45, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

::[[Wikipedia:Help desk#Chart for comparing different philosophical ideas]] --[[User:Doug Coldwell|Doug Coldwell]] <sup>[[User talk:Doug Coldwell|<span style="color:darkblue;">talk</span>]]</sup> 21:32, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

:::Don't worry about the criticism, pretty much anything you write will be criticized by somebody as OR.  As for how to do a chart, start by copying a chart in a format similar to what you want, then change the cell contents.  Here's one that might work:

{| class="wikitable" style="float:right; margin:1ex 0 1ex 1ex;"
|- colspan="3" style="text-align:center;"
|+ '''Presidential pay history'''
! Date established !! Salary !! Salary in 2009
dollars
|-
| September 24, 1789 || style="text-align:right;"| $25,000 || style="text-align:right;"| $566,000
|-
| March 3, 1873 || style="text-align:right;"| $50,000 || style="text-align:right;"| $865,000
|-
| March 4, 1909 || style="text-align:right;"| $75,000 || style="text-align:right;"| $1,714,000
|-
| January 19, 1949 || style="text-align:right;"| $100,000 || style="text-align:right;"| $906,000
|-
| January 20, 1969 || style="text-align:right;"| $200,000 || style="text-align:right;"| $1,175,000
|-
| January 20, 2001 || style="text-align:right;"| $400,000 || style="text-align:right;"| $487,000
|-
| colspan="3" style="text-align:center;"| Sources:<ref name="salary history">{{cite web|url=http://www.lib.umich.edu/node/11736/|accessdate=2009-10-07|publisher=[[University of Michigan]]|title=Presidential and Vice Presidential Salaries, 1789+|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110606213444/http://www.lib.umich.edu/node/11736/|archive-date=2011-06-06|dead-url=yes|df=}}</ref><ref name="dollar calc">[http://measuringworth.com/calculators/uscompare/# Relative Value in US Dollars]. ''Measuring Worth''. Retrieved May 30, 2006.</ref><ref name="Inflation Calculator">[http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl# Dept. of Labor Inflation Calculator]. ''Inflation Calculator''. Retrieved August 10, 2009.</ref>
|}

{{clear}}

:: Thanks for chart. I'll go to work on it tomorrow.--[[User:Doug Coldwell|Doug Coldwell]] <sup>[[User talk:Doug Coldwell|<span style="color:darkblue;">talk</span>]]</sup> 21:56, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

:::{{Done}}--[[User:Doug Coldwell|Doug Coldwell]] <sup>[[User talk:Doug Coldwell|<span style="color:darkblue;">talk</span>]]</sup> 12:17, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

:I suggest you remove the "Religion" section, as there seem to be lots of quotes about "uppermost" or "highest" seats or rooms, but it's unclear how that relates to odium. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 20:03, 4 November 2011 (UTC) 

::{{Done}}--[[User:Doug Coldwell|Doug Coldwell]] <sup>[[User talk:Doug Coldwell|<span style="color:darkblue;">talk</span>]]</sup> 20:52, 4 November 2011 (UTC)



:There was a lot of redundancy within each section, which I've worked to remove, but there's still lots of redundancy between sections, with pretty much everything after Stoicism saying the same thing about odium.  How can we eliminate this redundancy ?  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:45, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

:OK, the chart looks good (although you should probably add links to each philosopher).  Now comes the painful part.  You need to remove large swaths of each philosopher's section to remove all the redundancy.  That is, you don't need to explain each philosopher's concept of otium, when it's the same as another.  You should have sections for Stoicism, Epicureanism, and the rustic concept of otium.  The individual philosphers' sections should only contain info not found in the chart.  If there is no info for a philosopher not in the chart, then that section should be removed.  I know it's painful to remove things you've painstakenly wrote, but it will make for a much more concise and interesting article. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 14:43, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

:: I'll work on removing large swaths of each philosopher's section after my nap. I'm a [[Senior citizen|senior citizen]] [[retiree]] and I need a nap every afternoon.--[[User:Doug Coldwell|Doug Coldwell]] <sup>[[User talk:Doug Coldwell|<span style="color:darkblue;">talk</span>]]</sup> 16:10, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

:::Hey, I'm not a senior, but I take naps too. :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:13, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
:::: All I know is that you wake up a lot smarter than me. <br />
:::: I tried to follow your instructions on copyediting the article. Does it need more refining?--[[User:Doug Coldwell|Doug Coldwell]] <sup>[[User talk:Doug Coldwell|<span style="color:darkblue;">talk</span>]]</sup> 18:37, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::I haven't looked in depth yet, but my first impression is that yes, it could be cut down a bit more. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 12:39, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
:::::: Thanks for reply. I'll work on it today. I eventually want to turn this into a Good Article.--[[User:Doug Coldwell|Doug Coldwell]] <sup>[[User talk:Doug Coldwell|<span style="color:darkblue;">talk</span>]]</sup> 13:00, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
:::::: {{Done}} - I've made it more concise. Does it need more "fine tuning"? Good Article possibility?--[[User:Doug Coldwell|Doug Coldwell]] <sup>[[User talk:Doug Coldwell|<span style="color:darkblue;">talk</span>]]</sup> 16:25, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

== How do I stop Video Game lag?  ==

if people are leaving a game while you are playing online with them it has nothing to do with your video card, it would have to be your online connection. If you're still on dial-up, sucks for you. the only good dial-up service that is sub-par for online gaming is earthlnik (id get around a 250 ping in CS). if you really don't want to lag i would definately go for cable or DSL, those are your best bets  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Linda901212|Linda901212]] ([[User talk:Linda901212|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Linda901212|contribs]]) 07:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Why did you answer here instead of where I posted on the Ref Desk ?  I do have DSL, and these are single-player Flash games.  I don't think the lag is due to my Internet connection speed, I think it's because some process on my computer is taking up too many resources (CPU time, memory, etc.). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

== double numbering  ==


Hi, you thoughtfully wrote, "I reformatted your post to remove the double numbering." StuRat (talk) 20:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC) 

When you have time, please try to explain what I did wrong and how I should have done it differently. Thanks.  --[[User:KnowLimits|KnowLimits]] ([[User talk:KnowLimits|talk]]) 04:25, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

== How do I ...? ==
{{resolved}}
Thanks. I will check your clear suggestions re numbering. How do I mark that section "answered" ? )I had not set it up as help,  so I can't gp help-resolved. Thanks.  --[[User:KnowLimits|KnowLimits]] ([[User talk:KnowLimits|talk]]) 07:06, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
:You could put {{tn|resolved}}, if you want. Like I did here. <small><span style="border:1px solid;background:#00008B">[[User:Chzz|'''<span style="background:#00008B;color:white">&nbsp;Chzz&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:Chzz|<span style="color:#00008B;background-color:yellow;">&nbsp;►&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 16:06, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
::Ha, jinx, I see StuRat has just said the same, over on KnowLimit's talk! <small><span style="border:1px solid;background:#00008B">[[User:Chzz|'''<span style="background:#00008B;color:white">&nbsp;Chzz&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:Chzz|<span style="color:#00008B;background-color:yellow;">&nbsp;►&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 16:08, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

== You didn't attempt to counter this statement: ==

::::You don't always need to use bleach to clean counters; sometimes water alone will clean them off; it depends on what needs to be cleaned off. You're ''incongruentizing'' my analogy; '''bleach is to countertops as soap is to skin'''. There are [http://www.biobidet.com/BB-i3000_Premium_bidet.htm soap dispensers on higher-end bidet-seats.] --[[Special:Contributions/70.179.174.101|70.179.174.101]] ([[User talk:70.179.174.101|talk]]) 19:38, 22 November 2011 (UTC)</sub>  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.39.138.209|75.39.138.209]] ([[User talk:75.39.138.209|talk]]) </span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

You had crossed out your reply, so it looked like you withdrew it.  You also crossed out my reply, which you shouldn't do.  I doubt if you really mean "soap", perhaps some form of detergent ?  Those are only useful when dealing with oil, in that they help to emulsify them.  Stools aren't normally oily.  And any residue of the detergent would be itchy and the oil removed from the skin would need to be replaced with moisturizer.  They also don't kill germs, unless you are talking about an antibacterial detergent. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 15:44, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

== Movie Title from 1973 ==

Hi

Thank you for updating Subject/headline.  I hope something will come up.

Regards
Sincerely

Dona Lay  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/95.146.182.142|95.146.182.142]] ([[User talk:95.146.182.142|talk]]) 20:10, 3 December 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:You're welcome. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 00:42, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

== Ref Desk Comment Deleted ==

[[user:Tango]] has [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science&diff=prev&oldid=468778681 deleted] one of you contributions on the reference desk.  If you'd like, if may be discussed on the [[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk|talk page]]. [[User:Buddy431|Buddy431]] ([[User talk:Buddy431|talk]]) 17:55, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

:Thanks for the notice. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:06, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

== Message ==

I couldn't understand most of the events in Monk Season 2 Episode 11. Episode 11 is called Monk & 3 Pies. Monk & Sharona know that Pat Van Ranken won the 2nd Pie. Monk & Sharona know that Pat Van Ranken wasn't eating the 2nd Pie. Pat Van Ranken was digging through the 2nd Pie. Monk & Sharona told the Captain that Pat Van Ranken was looking for something inside the 2nd Pie. I don't know if the Captain believes that Pat Van Ranken was digging through the 2nd Pie.

Please write your answer for this question: Have you seen Monk Season 2 Episode 11?

If you saw Monk Season 2 Episode 11, then can you please answer my following questions?

Does the Captain believe that Pat Van Ranken was digging through the 2nd Pie? If the Captain believes that Pat Van Ranken was digging through the 2nd Pie, then why does the Captain refuse to go to Pat Van Ranken's house?([[Special:Contributions/76.20.90.53|76.20.90.53]] ([[User talk:76.20.90.53|talk]]) 22:51, 19 January 2012 (UTC)).

==Disambiguation link notification==

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== Subterranea ==

I think we're wearing out our welcome for this subject on the refdesk, sadly: this is a good debate to have over beer, with arm-waving and drawing on napkins. Lest you get the wrong idea, I've been fascinated by subterranean structures since childhood and have devoted significant thought to how it might be done.  Unfortunately, I don't see it happening: people don't like being underground for long periods, a problem that exists for human spaceflight. I've written much of the content on the individual positions of the [[Maginot Line]], a perfect example of a self-sufficient deeply-buried (30m) community. Ventilation, damp, access and bulk water are a common thread for all the Maginot structures. They required constant maintenance to keep out water, and if the lights went out, well there you were. I've spent a lot of time looking at the Paris Metro, and have given a lot of thought to how one would actually build a hobbit hole. The earthquake issue is a red herring: nobody's likely to put a large underground habitat in an earthquake zone (who would move to San Francisco to live underground anyway?  The best place would be in the high Arctic or Antarctic regions where the stable environment would be valuable and, at least in winter, nobody would miss the outside. '''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color:black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color:gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 01:13, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

:I also think deserts are a good place to go underground, as in Australia, or Texas/New Mexico/Arizona/Utah/Nevada.  As for not wanting to be underground, that was my point about cheap large-screen TVs, making it possible to make it feel like you have windows to whatever scene you would like, so it no longer feels like you are underground at all. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 02:03, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

::You might find this proposal interesting: [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2048395/Earth-scraper-Architects-design-65-storey-building-300-metres-ground.html#ixzz1mSqehdaX]. '''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color:black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color:gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 14:23, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

:::Thanks.  Mexico City gets earthquakes, though.  As for the sunlight, it looks like they would only get full sun near noon.  How could they build a glass cover that size without a frame ?  If they intend to let people walk on it, that's even more weight, and women in dresses might not like the peep show they give everyone. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 05:37, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

::::People aren't particularly heavy, even all packed together, so I don't see that as a challenge compared to the issues of earthquake engineering and moisture protection.  Mexico City used to be a lake, and has a strong tendency to return to that state, so I'm curious about how one might de-water the site to build it and then keep it dry. Soil liquefaction would remain a concern, but it's possible that the tip of the structure is planned to bear on bedrock, it would seem to me to be buoyant compared to the lakebed around it and might have to be tied down. Meanwhile the [[Mexico City Metropolitan Cathedral]] on the square is sinking into the soil. '''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color:black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color:gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 13:54, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

:::::I wonder if it could be designed to be neutrally buoyant.  That is, the upward force from the portion below ground (which is lighter than the ground) would be exactly balanced with the downward force from the portion above ground (which is heavier than air).  This would be like a boat floating in water.  It might still need to be attached to bedrock to prevent drifting, but a few small cables could do that job. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:32, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

::::::Neutral buoyancy would need a lot of mass, and hazarding a guess of a nominal displacement volume of 1,000,000 cubic meters (conveniently equal to 1,000,000 tonnes of water), and given that much of the structure is open light well, I doubt that the structure would amount to more than 25% of that displacement mass. Most comparable (passenger) ships would float with around 75% of the vessel above the water. My guess would be a network of cables to epoxy-grouted bedrock anchors to resist uplift, evenly distributed through a web of boreholes to a wide variety of anchor points along the height of the structure, rather than just tying down the pointy end and depending on the bedrock at that point being competent. Hydraulic pressure at 300m would become rather significant too: that's about test depth for a WWII-era submarine. You could deal with that by free drainage, but then you've got huge amounts of pumping, and with that the cathedral really would sink into the ground. '''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color:black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color:gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 21:10, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

:::::::I think adding a few stories above ground to achieve neutral buoyancy would be more practical than all those cables. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 21:17, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

::::::::It'd require more than a few: buildings are mostly air, and the point of this project, at least, is to more or less leave the plaza as is.  I'd also be interested in how much light might make it to the bottom at any time other than high noon. Anyhow, it's an interesting concept that tries to address some of the concerns I'd raised about isolation from the surface. '''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color:black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color:gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 21:45, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

== Iron injections ==

Thank you very much for your advice. I don't think I lack these vitamins because I'm addicted to vitamin-fortified breakfast cereals, but I'll look out for any cramps or stiffness. Have a nice afternoon/evening. [[User:Leptictidium|Leptictidium]] (''[[User talk:Leptictidium|mt]]'') 18:25, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

:But then you should be getting enough iron from those, too, right ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:34, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

== Falling balls ==

Re your "To further complicate the question" at [[WP:RD/S#Falling balls]], I can't tell if you are mocking Whoop Whoop or sincerely furthering the discussion, which I suppose is the beauty of your contribution.  Congratulations, sir. -- [[User talk:Thinking of England|ToE]] 01:41, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

:Thanks. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 02:20, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

== Koran question ==

Just so you're aware, I did respond to you on [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 March 3#Koran burning]]. Sorry for the delay, I've been off Wikipedia. I've had [[Mass Effect 3|an issue to deal with]] which occupied my free time. [[File:718smiley.png|15px|alt=Awesome Face]] &mdash; <b>[[User:HandThatFeeds|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS; color:DarkBlue;cursor:help">The Hand That Feeds You</span>]]:<sup>[[User talk:HandThatFeeds|Bite]]</sup></b> 19:28, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

:OK, I took a look.  Thanks. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:54, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

== politics list ==


Not to nitpick, (Ok, I'm going to nitpick.)  I agree with the sentiment of number #21 on your politics list, but I'm not sure about the solution.  No one gets sued for ''downloading'' mp3s they get sued for ''uploading'' them. If I participate in a [[bittorrent]] of a movie, and ten thousand other people participate I've assisted in bootlegging of 10,001 copies of the movie, even though my only real intention was to get a copy for myself. That's just how the system works.  
I think that modern peer-to-peer methods of piracy don't lend themselves to simplistic solutions like just counting up the infringements. 
However, I don't have a suggestion for a more fair penalty. [[User:APL|APL]] ([[User talk:APL|talk]]) 10:16, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

:I've seen that threat at the start of DVDs, with no distinction made between uploads and downloads.  It may very well be that they only prosecute uploads, but I'm also opposed to having overly strict laws and leaving it up to the authorities to decide who to prosecute, as this gives them too much power over us.  I think I will add this to the list. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 15:44, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

== Tails ==

What trolls have. [[Special:Contributions/70.174.142.77|70.174.142.77]] ([[User talk:70.174.142.77|talk]]) 01:45, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

==Deleted post==

There is a discussion which concerns you at [[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk#Deleted Birther soapboxing]]. '''[[User:Spinningspark|<span style="background:#fafad2; color:#C08000;">Spinning</span>]][[User talk:Spinningspark|<span style="color:#4840a0;">Spark</span>]]''' 19:36, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

== What is my political philosophy ? ==

I'd like to list some of my beliefs, and see if they fit into any existing political philosophy (US citizen here, but the answers need not be limited to US political parties):

1) I seem Libertarian in some aspects, such as believing in the legalization of drugs and prostitution.  However, I do think they should be regulated, and kept away from kids.  Gambling should be legal, but not state supported, as in state lotteries.

2) I think the legal and religious practices of marriage should be decoupled, so that a legal "domestic partnership" can exist between any group of people, and a religious "marriage" should only be subject to the rules of your religion.

3) I believe that the movement of wealth from the poor and middle-class to the rich is a serious problem, eventually destablizing a nation, and should be countered with a heavily progressive tax system (up to 90% at the top bracket).  Furthermore, I believe the poor should be helped, but not just with cash handouts.  Since they are often poor at handling money, they should instead be given benefits like free healthy food (not junk food or alcohol), free child care, free job training, and a negative income tax (a subsidy to their paychecks).  When unemployment is high, I believe government works programs should employ them.  I also believe free college should be offered to any citizen who can get accepted at a legitimate, accredited institution.

4) I believe in a reciprocal trade policy, not unrestricted free trade.  That is, if a nation doesn't accept your exports freely, don't accept theirs freely either.  We should also only trade with true democracies.  Thus, we should phase out all trade with China, unless they become fully democratic.

5) I believe in disarmament, but not unilaterally.

6) I believe in using military force when attacked (such as in Afghanistan, but not Iraq) or to prevent genocide (as in Rwanda), but not "to protect national interests".

7) I believe that broadcast TV should be regulated more, to prevent kids from seeing violence and obscenity.  Advertisements should also be regulated more, to prevent false claims.  Cable can continue, unregulated, as long as parents have the ability to block stations they don't want.  The Internet should remain as unregulated as it currently is.

8) I believe that global warming is caused by humans, but that any attempt to stop it is futile, and our resources would be better spent in relocating people who live in low-lying coastal areas.

9) I believe that big businesses are basically amoral, and will rip people off at the first opportunity, unless prevented from doing so by government regulation with fines steep enough to impact profits.

10) I believe in environmental protection.  However, since the benefit of protecting the environment is shared by all, so should the burden be.  That is, it's wrong to tell people they now live in a special environmental area, and are thus prevented from doing as they please, unless they are compensated accordingly.

11) I oppose taking property by eminent domain except in cases where no other option exists (like when building roads).  Taking private property to give it to a business or private owner in the belief that they will generate more tax revenue is something I specifically oppose.

12) I oppose tax breaks for large corporations used to lure them into one state or prevent them from leaving.

13) I believe the tax system should be greatly simplified.  I'd like to see the money taken as withholdings be the end of it, with no additional need for tax forms filed every year.

14) I believe in the separation of church and state.  That is, no state support for religion, and specifically no equal footing for "intelligent design" with evolution in classrooms. 

15) I believe that equating spending money with free speech is a fundamental error, and that unlimited donations to support political candidates is dangerous and should be stopped by public funding of candidates.

16) I believe that the "equal time" doctrine should be restored for broadcasters, thus reversing the trend of media to become heavily biased, which is polarizing the nation.

17) I believe in direct democracy, slowly implemented, so as to gradually take power away from "representatives".  California's proposal system is a good start (true, it's led to some bad laws, but people will learn from that, given enough time).

18) I believe in stronger consumer protection laws, such as requiring the  total amount payed for an item to be listed before, and in equal size, to any info on payment amounts.

19) I believe in free health care, but not coverage for abortions.  (They should be legal, just not publicly funded.)

20) I believe traffic fines should be proportional to income, so rich people would be as affected by them as the poor.

21) I oppose absurd penalties for media piracy (like the quarter million dollar fine and 5 years in prison for one not-for-profit offense).  The penalty should be no more than for shoplifting an item of identical value.

22) I oppose the concept that a police officer is a more reliable witness than the accused.  A policeman's statement should not be taken as fact, unless backed up with evidence like video.

23) I oppose the concept of "not guilty by reason of insanity".  I support "guilty and insane", instead, meaning that they should be treated for their insanity, but, if ever found to be sane, should then serve out their time in prison.

24) I oppose the [[Exclusionary Rule]].  If evidence was obtained improperly, then the court should have the power to punish those who did so, but not to exclude the evidence.  That is, determining who is, and is not, guilty, is more important.

25) I believe gun ownership should be tightly regulated.

26) I'm opposed to "protected classes".  Thus, minorities shouldn't be given any extra consideration when applying to college or for a job (indeed, any institution which does so should be sued for discrimination).  However, if they are discriminated against, they should have the same right to sue as anyone else.  Note there also shouldn't be special laws for police officers, allowing them to carry guns where private citizens can't, allowing them to use highway turn-arounds where others can't (anyone should be able to, but in an emergency only), or prescribing more severe penalties for assaulting or killing a police officer.  Handicapped access and parking should be optional, not government enforced.

27) I'm opposed to overly strict laws with optional enforcement by authorities.  If out-of-towners who drive through a speed trap are given tickets for speeding, then police officers or the mayor who drive through must be given tickets if they speed, too.  This should be enforced by the next level of government up.

28) I'm opposed to capital punishment, but only because I don't trust the American justice system to determine who is guilty.  I generally believe in the "eye-for-an-eye, tooth-for-a-tooth" approach to measuring the severity of a punishment.  

29) I don't believe in the concept of the victimless crime.  If there's no victim, then there's no crime.  

30) Crimes which affect multiple people should be charged as multiple crimes (one trial will suffice).  Thus a stock-trader who swindles a million people should be given a million consecutive sentences, as should a terrorist who kills many.

31) No taxation without representation.  Thus, special taxes on non-residents should be prohibited. 

32) I believe corporate executive compensation is out of control.  Specifically, members of the board of directors of one company should not be employed by another company where somebody employed by the first company is on their board of directors, as they can then give each other raises ad infinitum.  Executive compensation should be decided by votes of all stockholders.

33) I oppose conscription in the military, except as a last-ditch effort to save a nation facing defeat and occupation.

::I just went through some of your political views and had some follow up questions for you. Most of your views are logical and more reasonable than most others I have read about. (Its absolutely fine if you don't want to reply). I hope that you understand my english (I am not a native speaker and there will be grammatical errors), but do tell me if I do not make sense in some point below.

::A) w.r.t point 4, if you ban trade with china, from where will you get your $20 grinders?? . Does [[Russia]] qualify as a democratic country for you pt. 4

::B) How will you ensure your pt.4 ban. e.g. suppose you ban trade with china but allow trade with Taiwan(a democratic country), and Taiwan gets things that you want manufactured in China and acts as a middleman and pockets the profits. How will you ensure that this does not happen in a globalized world.

::C) w.r.t. point 1, you say you support legalisation of drugs. I assume that by drugs you mean cannaboid based drugs like Hashish and Cannabis. Do you also support legalisation of say Coke and Heroin.

::D) Do you support legalisation of [[Kidney trade in Iran|Organ Sale]] (with regulation i.e.) as is done in persia. Do you support [[euthanasia|right to die]] ?

::E) Do you support religious conversions on death bed? Do you support religious conversions of minors by inducement such as money.

::F) You say you are opposed to capital punishment. Are you sure you won't want to hang someone guilty of a serious crime (you can imagine, I will not describe).

:::Thanks. --[[User:Viscious81|nids]][[User_talk:Viscious81|(&#9794;)]] 22:24, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

::::I renumbered your 1-6 to A-F, to avoid confusion with my numbered list:

::::A) Not sure what you mean by a $20 grinder.  Do you mean a [[submarine sandwich]] ?  Those are about $5 here.  As for getting cheaper items, I suggest Taiwan, Malaysia, South Korea, Bangladesh, etc.

::::B) The middleman would add to the price, so that China would no longer be the lowest price supplier.

::::C) Yes, I'd legalize those, too.  I'd put similar restrictions to those on alcohol, though, such as no driving, piloting a plane, operating heavy machinery, etc., while intoxicated.  And none for kids.

::::D) I support the right to die (although I'd require counseling first to make sure they understand all the alternatives and made an informed decision).  As for paying people for their organs, yes, I think that would make sense, but some rather strong controls would be needed, like them declaring in front of a judge that this is their decision.

::::E) Religious conversion is a private matter for churches to decide upon, not something which voters should be able to decide.  If I were to decide, however, I'd allow conversions on the death bed, but wouldn't offer money.

::::F) Yes, I definitely think some criminals deserve execution, but, in the US at least, the "justice system" seems incapable of determining who they are, due to the [[exclusionary rule]], incompetent public defenders, the influence of money, corrupt prosecutors, etc.  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 03:29, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

::::::Thanks for the reply. 

::::::A) By grinder, I meant [[Blade grinder]]. Basically anything that costs about $20 when made in China but would cost $200 if made in America and atleast $50 when made anywhere else. But I guess I get your point although I would disagree with it. You are assuming that Chinese goods will no longer be cheapest if they are routed through a third country with added middleman costs. 

::::::E) For Organ sale and euthanasia, you would want strong checks (and perhaps a ban on minors?) so as to ensure that they make a informed decision. How is religion then a completely private matter. Why should it be not regulated, say declaring in front of a judge that you wish to convert. Why can't there be a ban on minors when they are not allowed to make many decisions about their life. Similarly, don't you think that in case of religious conversion on deathbed, there cannot be a informed consent. Here, too, I do think that I get your point though I disagree. I suppose that you are assuming that religion is totally harmless. 

::::::Thanks anyways. Reading through your political philosophy was a learning experience. :) --[[User:Viscious81|nids]][[User_talk:Viscious81|(&#9794;)]] 13:04, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

:::::::A) I think China has only a tiny advantage over other third world nations, so a $20 item from China would be more like $25 from them.  I expect adding a middleman to make up that difference.

:::::::E) I take it you are from a nation with a state religion ?  I believe in the total separation of Church and State.  This both means that the government should have no control over religions (unless they commit crimes, like murder) and that religion should have no control over government.  And religious conversion should be fully reversible, unlike selling your organs.  (Some theocracies punish [[apostasy]], but I am strongly against that.) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:23, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

::::::::No, I am not from a country with a state religion, (but religion is a messed up concept in my country). My question was in a different sense and let me give an example to explain my point. I don't know if you are catholic or not, but please do not get offended by the example I give below. btw, I too am against theocracies and the punishment that they hand over to apostates. My only concern is that their should not be any subterfuge in proselitization campaigns. Just like any consumer product, people should be able to make a informed decision. Two scenarios:
             
:::::::::a) A nun works for charity in a third world country. She is deeply catholic and her purpose is to get as many converts to catholism as she can. So, though she helps poor and needy, she also baptizes them on their [[Deathbed conversion|death bed]]. Now, its not a problem if she converts them via informed consent. However, there is [[The Missionary Position|no informed consent]] in these scenarios. Should State intervene??

:::::::::b) A missionary works in a remote Amazon forest. When somebody falls ill, he gives a sugar tablet to them and tells them to take it after taking name of their tribal gods. The tablets do not work. Then he gives them aspirin and asks them to take it after taking the name of Jesus. The aspirin works. People leave their tribal religion and become christians. In a way, this is a sleight of hand or even fraud. 
:::::::::We protect children by not allowing them to take some decisions as long as they are minor, because we assume that they will not be able to make an informed decision. In your view, Should state also not protect such marginalized sections, their culture and religion in a similar way. Remember that there is already a restriction on alcohol trade in reserved areas as opposed to normal areas.--[[User:Viscious81|nids]][[User_talk:Viscious81|(&#9794;)]] 20:56, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

::::::::::a) I can't see how any god would care what some nun mumbles over a dying man.  If they didn't agree to convert, whatever the nun says is entirely meaningless.  She might as well have converted everyone in China, against their wishes, from her home.

::::::::::b) In this case I'd argue they should be charged with fraud, especially if they then received donations or work from the converted, or their families.  <small>I picture one of the converted saying "Jesus may be the better healer, but our old god sure did taste a lot better". :-) </small> [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 21:33, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

== BP ==

Even adjusting for 1950, [[BP]] can't be changed into calendar years. Having said that the section heading wasn't helpful as there were probably two floods and we don't start section headings with 'the' normally, so I've changed that and rewritten the section with a new reference. I'm guessing that whoever added BP didn't understand its meaning or even find a source using BP. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 06:19, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

:I take it you meant to link to [[Before Present]] not [[British Petroleum]].  At the time scales involved the diff between now and 1950 seems irrelevant.  You don't agree ?  Or is your point that we need to make it clear that radiocarbon dating wasn't used in the calcs ?  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 08:06, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

== Date linking ==

Greetings.  Regarding your edits at [[Judea]], I thought current WP practice was to discourage linking of years, as seemingly indicated at [[MOS:UNLINKYEARS]] and [[WP:YEARLINK]].  I have seen other editors (and, I believe, bots as well) going through articles and removing such links.  Is there something I am misunderstanding about the proper direction to go with such edits? [[User:Hertz1888|Hertz1888]] ([[User talk:Hertz1888|talk]]) 22:11, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

:OK, I didn't know that.  This article had an ugly mixture of some linked dates, some unlinked, and, even worse, the brackets at the end added to link some dates, but not at the front.  So, it had to be fixed, and I thought the best way to make it consistent was to link all the dates, but if the policy is to unlink all the dates, that's fine, too.  (It was also inconsistent in use of "[[BCE]]" and "[[CE]]", which I added for all dates except the modern ones, but I trust this change can stand.) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 22:16, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

::Thanks for the quick response.  If you don't mind, then, I'll review the article and do some reformatting, trying not to put back in anything ugly. [[User:Hertz1888|Hertz1888]] ([[User talk:Hertz1888|talk]]) 22:33, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

:::Sure, have at it.  BTW, what is the rule on when to add CE ?  It seems silly to add it for 2012, but foolish to omit it for 1 CE.  Where is the dividing line ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 22:38, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

::::I've never seen anything written on that, and don't know whether there is an official policy; perhaps one is needed.  I apply a commonsense test consistent with your description: only specify the era when necessary to avoid possible ambiguity.  Cheers, [[User:Hertz1888|Hertz1888]] ([[User talk:Hertz1888|talk]]) 23:25, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

:::::OK then, lacking any guidance, I think I will go from 999 CE to 1000. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 01:48, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

::::::I can tell you this much: the articles I've seen that don't involve BC/BCE frequently omit any label, and might say, simply, e.g., "in the year 70" or "in 410".  I suppose that as long as there is no room for confusion of the reader, any reasonable formulation will do.  Perhaps some more solid guidance can be gained through discussion on [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers]].  [[User:Hertz1888|Hertz1888]] ([[User talk:Hertz1888|talk]]) 02:42, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

:::::::OK, thanks. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 03:26, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

== Monkbook ==

I posted the script [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Computing/2012_May_14#Monobook.2Fvector]. Regards, [[User:SGGH|S.G.<sup><small>(GH)</small></sup>]] <sub>[[User_talk:SGGH|ping!]]</sub> 20:51, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

:Thanks, but I can't help with this.  You might have a problem, in that nobody could help when you first posted, without the script, and now it's too far up the page for anyone to see it.  You're normally not supposed to repost, but in this case, moving it to the bottom might make sense. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 21:05, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

== Accidental revert ? ==

Aaaarrgghh. Yeah. Sorry. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 04:00, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:No prob. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:20, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

== Hello Stu ==

Do you like geography as well as math?  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Legolover26|Legolover26]] ([[User talk:Legolover26|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Legolover26|contribs]]) 18:01, 24 May 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Sure do, but then again, there's not many topics I don't like. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 03:30, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

== Wikipedia Help Survey ==

Hi there, my name's Peter Coombe and I'm a [[m:Wikimedia Fellowships|Wikimedia Community Fellow]] working on [[w:Wikipedia:Help Project/Community fellowship|a project to improve Wikipedia's help system]]. At the moment I'm trying to learn more about how people use and find the current help pages. If you could help by filling out [https://wikimedia.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_eri3eVaNSj7GWGw this brief survey] about your experiences, I'd be very grateful. It should take less than 10 minutes, and your responses will not be tied to your username in any way.

Thank you for your time, <br />
[[w:User:the wub|the wub]] ([[w:User talk:the wub|talk]]) 18:19, 14 June 2012 (UTC) <small>(Delivered using [[m:Global message delivery|Global message delivery]])</small>
<!-- EdwardsBot 0212 -->

== Nothing personal ==

Hi StuRat, I'm glad I could help you out with your fish tongue question. I also wanted to say that I meant nothing personal when I complained (at the talk page) about humor on the ref desk last week. You were just the person who happened to be brought up, and my response would have been the same whoever had. So, I hope no hard feelings :) [[User:SemanticMantis|SemanticMantis]] ([[User talk:SemanticMantis|talk]]) 19:03, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

:Thanks.  I do, however, stand by my assertion that unpaid volunteers can't be held to the same humorless standard an employer can require (although, even then, such a drab work environment may lead to a decrease in morale with high absenteeism and turnover). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:33, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

== Hawthorn on the refdesk ==

I'm sorry, I poked my nose in where it wasn't needed and screwed up your link. My apologies, I will think next time. Best to you. Richard Avery [[Special:Contributions/86.4.184.18|86.4.184.18]] ([[User talk:86.4.184.18|talk]]) 22:36, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

:No problem.  It's not your fault that there are several different species all called "red hawthorn". [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 02:44, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

== Pop-ups ==


7/5/2012

Hi StuRat
As this is all new to me, I'm probably not going through the correct procedure - anyway, maybe I will find out.
Attempting to avoid pop-ups moved from Google Chrome to IE.On your advice checked the enable section on Tools.
Showed only duplicate pair that I did not recognize, so removed them. Believe I had gone through similar action on
Google Chrome with no success. Will try getting on to a web page to see if it has cleared. Will let you know.

[[User:Hamish84|Hamish84]] ([[User talk:Hamish84|talk]]) 04:18, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

You have an impressive history!

:Thanks.  I use [[Firefox]] myself, and occasionally [[Opera web browser|Opera]], and both seem to have functional pop-up blockers.  BTW, I assume you are on a Windows computer, am I correct ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 07:09, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

==You are invited==

Hello, StuRat, just wanted to invite you to participate in [[User:Snow Rise/Overflow channel: Japan's surrender|a userspace extension of a recent RefDesk discussion you took part in]], created for the purposes of illumination, community goodwill, and, just perhaps, improved articles on the subject matter.  This invitation goes out specifically to you as a participant in the original discussion, but anyone reading this is free to join us.  Come contribute if you are so-inclined and don't have too much real editing to do! :) [[User:Snow Rise|Snow]] ([[User talk:Snow Rise|talk]]) 11:40, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

==Apple pop-ups==

Hi StuRat,

Re ubiquitous Apple pop-ups. kept on looking for  help from Microsoft.
They advised Eplorer 9 which had a download for such intrusions.
It seems to have worked!!
Thank you [[User:Hamish84|Hamish84]] ([[User talk:Hamish84|talk]]) 08:23, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

:Good, glad it's fixed. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 16:41, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

== Ubiquitous Its ==

I was surprised to read this:
''Veblen goods, where much of the value of the product is due to it's price alone, not it's inherent utility.''
I thought you just used "its" for both "it's and "its". It seems instead you just use them backwards to the norm. Is this new? Just curious. [[User:Bielle|Bielle]] ([[User talk:Bielle|talk]]) 01:14, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

:I've always used the apostrophe in both, unless I had a typo somewhere.  I would only use "its" as the (rare) plural of "it". [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 02:10, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

::I knew you had a rule. I just couldn't remember what it was. (small joke.) [[User:Bielle|Bielle]] ([[User talk:Bielle|talk]]) 02:12, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

== Is the dreaded Ratbone attacking? ==

<small>Ratbone, I'd normally put this on your talk page, but you don't have one.</small>  Why do you take every opportunity to tell me I'm wrong, when it is frequently you who are wrong ?  First you claimed I was wrong when I said that window air conditioners often use a [[slinger ring]], then you used bad math to say [[hypoxia]] isn't a problem on airplanes without air circulation, and now there's this.  Do you have something personal against me ?  What have I done to you to merit such mistreatment ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat|talk]]) 10:46, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

:<i> I transcluded the above comment from [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science#Do_Sounds_Played_at_the_Same_Time_Add.3F]]. [[User:W203.27.72.5|203.27.72.5]] ([[User talk:W203.27.72.5|talk]]) 11:11, 14 July 2012 (UTC)</i>

::Just so you know, StuRat, he also claimed that [[User:Hydnjo]] had incorrectly formulated [[Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#Air_Conditioning|his recent question]], whereas I believe the mistake was on Ratbone's part. So, I don't think he's singling you out. He seems to be a very competent engineer, and has given great explanations of how thing work, but his reading-comprehension is sometimes lacking based on how he replies to other people's comments. [[User:W203.27.72.5|203.27.72.5]] ([[User talk:W203.27.72.5|talk]]) 11:18, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

::I have nothing personal against Stu - I often enjoy his usually humorous posts.  However, I will, if the subject lies within my professional competencies, correct anything that I think is wrong, so that the OP can judge for him/herself and not be misled.  I do think that folk posting answers should endevour to give valid answers and not just the fisrt thing that comes into their head.  Some months ago I made a recommedation that the etiquete of Refg Desk be ameded to encourage people to hang back and give time for experts in the field to answer - but if no expert answers within a day, by all means should anyone else have a go.  Adaopting this rule would considerably improve the value of Ref Desk, and better questions would result, and more knowledgable and expert persons would post answers.  As it is, the often poor quality and sometimes completely wrong answers discourage experts from getting involved.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/121.215.29.47|121.215.29.47]] ([[User talk:121.215.29.47|talk]]) 12:31, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

:::One problem with your "experts" concept is that many people who consider themselves experts are really not.  In the "slinger ring" example, you had some expertise in this area, but it was in Australia, and a decade old, so you really weren't as qualified to discuss how A/C works now, in the US, as I am, as demonstrated by your incorrect statements. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:41, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

::::The world isn't perfect, neither am I, neither are you, and neither are experts.  Being an expert does not stop you from making  mistakes, but, overall, an expert will give a better quality opinion.  I did NOT say only experts should answer - that would be wrong.  What I did say, is that folk who are not expert should hang back a short while so that experts may answer.  Too many folk are just posting guesses.  If the expert response does not come, or it has error(s), or is not clear, or is not pitched to the OP's level, then by all means let non-experts have a go - that will improve the overall response to the OP's question.  Incidentally, I have since checked with a colleague who is still in teh aircon business.  He showed me that slinger-equiped aircons have become available in Australia, and they don't sound noticeably different to ones that don't.  He was surprised by your claim, as I was, but neither of us could imagine what grinding a squirrel in gears sounds like.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/120.145.55.176|120.145.55.176]] ([[User talk:120.145.55.176|talk]]) 05:50, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::I wonder if we can find a recording of the sound online, so you can hear it.  It's the irregular sound of it, rather than a normal continuous fan sound, that I find annoying.  Perhaps you Aussies have improved on it so it doesn't make that racket.   Here's a video with the noise (although mine is worse): [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=filDzIfS9JI].  (Ironically, it's called a sleep video, so apparently some people find it soothing.)  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 06:02, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::::I checked out the youtube video, but it has little value as we don't know how close the microphone was, or how far the gain was turned up.  It does appear that the recording was done outside, not inside, so the noise is less important.  It sounds to me like typical fan-in-air noise, with a bit shaft bearing rumble.  Perhaps you could record the sound of your own aircon, with a good electret microphone held 2 m away, accompanied by a relaxed mature human voice, so I have some (albiet rough) idea how loud the aircon is, and how balanced the recorded sound is - if you really wanted to go to so much trouble!  Someone else posted that the patent I refred to in Ref Desk could really have been about quieting the slinger ring - he may be right - it's hard to tell with patents.  Unfortunately, us aussies making an improved aircon for domestic use is quite unlikely - we have almost no manufacturing for retail markets - everything comes from China and Korea, with small quantities (premium models) comming from Japan and New Zealand, though we do make commerical aircon locally - a friend of mine (former business associate) owns one factory.  This is a consequence of government policy, dreamed up by politicians who think that ecomonic success comes from trading our extensive mineral resources for Chinese manufactured goods.  Looks like they are right too, but if the Chinese economy collapses, so will ours.  We used to have a very large, diverse, and extensive manufacturing industry, but it's just about all gone now.  Regards, Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/121.215.146.212|121.215.146.212]] ([[User talk:121.215.146.212|talk]]) 11:27, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

::::::::Yea, same with the US manufacturing base, with a few exceptions, like cars, planes, and military items.  However, many of the items made in China are based on US specs, so, if Aussie does the same, they could specify an A/C unit that doesn't make that horrid sound. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:09, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::::::Yep.  Could be regional market factors. Chinese goods started ariving here in bulk 20 years ago, but were not what the market wanted, and were not of good quality.  They have since bent over backwards to meet market needs and meet European technical standards, as is applicable to Australia.  Their products are excellent now.  We still make cars - our car industry is stonger than USA's.  We make military stuff too, ordinance, submarines, ships - even selling ships to the USN - though I gather the USN doesn't think much of them.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/124.182.16.199|124.182.16.199]] ([[User talk:124.182.16.199|talk]]) 05:59, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

::::::::::I think your assessment of the US auto industry needs an update.  It was in trouble, but GM and Chrysler got a government bailout, cut benefits and employees, and now are both in good shape (I've worked at both).  Ford was in good shape all along. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 06:10, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Stu. I have nothing personal against you - I often enjoy your usually humorous posts.  

REF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:121.215.69.8

However, I will, if the subject lies within my professional & serious hobby competencies, and I have the time, correct anything that I think is wrong, so that the OP can judge for him/herself and not be misled.  I do think that folk posting answers should endevour to give valid answers and not just the first thing that comes into their head. 

Some months ago I made a recommedation that the etiquete of Ref Desk be ameded to encourage people to hang back and give time for experts in the field to answer - but if no expert answers within a day, by all means should anyone else have a go.  Adopting this rule would considerably improve the value of Ref Desk, and better questions would result, and more knowledgable and expert persons would post answers.  As it is, the often poor quality and sometimes completely wrong answers from many posters discourage experts from getting involved. This is a pity, because all other similar forums are geared to high school & college students, and won't answer topics outside of high school and college syllabi.  Ref Desk will tackle just about anything, except its seems advanced chemistry. Surprisingly (at least to me), the admin folk treated this as a threat and debated whether I was someone else or was a troll!

Join me in a quest to increase the quality of Ref Desk answers - then the quantity will look after itself. 

Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/121.215.29.47|121.215.29.47]] ([[User talk:121.215.29.47|talk]]) 12:41, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

:But, as I gave in my examples, you frequently incorrectly accuse me of being wrong.  In fact, I have yet to see a case where you accused me of being wrong where I actually was wrong.  Can't you see how this creates a quality problem, when correct answers are claimed to be wrong, leaving the OP uncertain as to the answer ?  I suggest, if you're going to accuse me, or anybody else, of being wrong, that you have proof, and check your math carefully.  You also seem to misread my posts to mean something other than what I actually said, then you claim that what you imagined I said is wrong.  And, as 203.27.72.5 notes above, you apparently do this with other editors, too.  I suggest you start your posts with "Just to clarify..." or, at most, "I disagree, because..." rather than any form of "You are wrong..." or, especially, "You often post incorrect answers...", which is drifting into personal attack area, as it's attacking the person, not the post. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:12, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

:Also, if you really want to improve the quality of Ref Desk responses, I suggest you use a spellchecker, since, in addition to the 3 instances of misspelling "identical" in that single post, you also had 3 other misspellings. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:44, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

::Stu, in your recent posts (eg air in Ref Desk aircraft discussion and in this talk page) you are doing the very things you have accused me of doing:-  You are misreading my posts, and you have gotten very personal.  Pot calling the kettle black at the very least, mate!  And you make claims that are simply wrong - eg you claimed I supplied no references - in fact I did - go back and look.  You claimed I did not explain a calculation - cripes, its only simple division.  Spelling is not the most important thing; content is.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/120.145.20.72|120.145.20.72]] ([[User talk:120.145.20.72|talk]]) 17:31, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

:::I will go look at my posts to try to determine what you mean.  However, if you continue to be rude to me (and others), by accusing me of being wrong at every opportunity, you can expect the same from me.  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:14, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

:::As for your lack of references, you mentioned your "stadard" ASHRAE "pschrometry" chart, but provided no link to it, so I can't verify the info. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:05, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

:<small>Since the discussion is now here, where it belongs, I have deleted the copy under your (and many other peoples) shared dynamic I/P talk page, where it does not belong. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:12, 14 July 2012 (UTC) 

::Excellent!  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/120.145.55.176|120.145.55.176]] ([[User talk:120.145.55.176|talk]]) 05:37, 15 July 2012 (UTC) </small>

:OK, the "discussion" at the airline question has now turned outright nasty, with you accusing me of lying, etc.  Can't you see how your original rudeness has led to us hijacking the OP's question and damaging both of our reputations ?  I propose a truce, where, at least on future questions, we both try to behave in a civil manner.  This means no more statements like "Stu enjoys posting on this forum - pity he doesn't check his facts first". [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:32, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

::Re wording:  The phrases "You are wrong", and "I disagree" mean exactly the same thing, though the second is marginally more diplomatic due to the shift in focus.  They mean I ''do'' think you are wrong. However "Just to clarify" means something completely different.  It means I ''don't'' think you are wrong, I just think I have a better way of explaining the same view, or am including an step missing in your reasoning, etc.  If I'm not dissagreeing and am just clarifying, I usually say so, or say "Such and such is partly right", if that is the case.  Perhaps mere clarifications haven't seemed appropriate to your recent posts.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/124.182.16.199|124.182.16.199]] ([[User talk:124.182.16.199|talk]]) 04:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:::There's nothing wrong with being diplomatic.  It can avoid wars, either here or in the real world.  (There might be a cultural difference, too.  I think Aussies enjoy insulting each other, while here, that will get you shot.  Something to keep in mind if you ever visit the US.)  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:58, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

::::Yes, you are right about cultural differences - not only are there differences between countries, there are differences between industries!  In the software industry, which I have worked in, robust discussions are essential to bringing to light and fixing faulty algorithms & buggy code while retaining productivity - guys hurl more or less insults at each other without the least offence being taken.  But don't try that in the journalism game.  I have worked quite a bit with USA folk - I worked for a few years as an application engineer in the local dealership of a well known American manufacturer of large diesel engines (whose coporate colours are yellow and black) - and I found the biggest factor in good communication was terminology.  In Australia, as in England, "sump" means the casing on an engine where the oil lives.  To an American, it's an "oil pan" - Americans consider the word "sump" to mean where the brown stuff goes after you do your trousers up and flush.  It can make for some pretty bizare emails.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/124.182.16.199|124.182.16.199]] ([[User talk:124.182.16.199|talk]]) 05:44, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::I only use it in the term [[sump pump]]. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 06:11, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

::Re finding a chart: There's actually a simplified but very nice chart in the Wikipedia article on psychrometrics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PsychrometricChart.SeaLevel.SI.svg.  The psychrometric chart is a one-page "bible" for all those in the aircon design & application business - jst about everything an aircon guy would want to know can be worked out by plotting lines on this chart.  We all keep copies of the ASHRAE version in A4 or A3 size on hand.  I had assumed that you would at least go search on WP - If I do all the work, I learn and not you.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/124.182.16.199|124.182.16.199]] ([[User talk:124.182.16.199|talk]]) 04:35, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

::Re truce:  I went to the Ref Desk page before looking here.  A truce is a good idea, but how about this:  As well as being civil, I promise to read carefully your posts and check my posts for facts before save-pageing them, and you undertake the same.  And each of us to try and read the best into everyone's posts, and not try and read the worst into them - act in good faith in other words.  And, lastly, and most importantly, each of us to accept with good grace when we shown to be wrong.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/124.182.16.199|124.182.16.199]] ([[User talk:124.182.16.199|talk]]) 04:35, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:::Agreed, but there's also a vast area where nobody is right or wrong; it's opinion, or weighting different factors differently, or differences in interpretation, etc.  Saying somebody is wrong when it's likely to fall into one of those gray areas isn't helpful, especially when saying they are "frequently wrong".  Agreed ?  I'll even toss in not criticizing your spelling (if that can be called spelling), as a bonus, unless there's a good joke to be made. :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:49, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

::::I certainly agree that gray areas often occur - these must be recognised.  In good faith, though, I have to say that, for example, your initial post on the airplane air topic "As for how long before it becomes uncomfortable, that's just a few minutes" was not in any way correct, as even just my calculations, a limit case, showed.  And I could quote lots of other reasons (eg time spent by trapped underground miners without harm), but we've done enough on that.  Regarding spelling, I am actually a very good speller, but there's no question that a) my typing skills are shocking, and b) I obviously don't care that much on forums.  Content is what I care about.  On work matters its a different story - the both spelling and content matter.  I've enjoyed the jokes already posted about my spelling. (The guy who posted about indentical, outdentical, and inbetweenical was at my expense, but it was brilliant). Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/124.182.16.199|124.182.16.199]] ([[User talk:124.182.16.199|talk]]) 05:18, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::What somebody considers comfortable is exactly the type of gray area I mean.  Certainly somebody in ill health, who is already uneasy flying, and maybe a bit claustrophobic, is going to feel uncomfortable sooner.  Even a 1 degree rise in temperature or a 1% increase in humidity or a 1% decrease in oxygen level might be enough to set them off.  There's not going to be any precise answer that will state, scientifically, whether somebody is comfortable or not.  The best you can say is that the average, healthy person may be comfortable within a certain range.  If somebody comes over to your house, and says they find the temperature uncomfortable, do you then prove to them, scientifically, that they really are comfortable ? :-)

::::::It is well known in the aircon industry that it is something of a black art to get people to feel comfortable.  There is a rule of thumb in one of my textbooks that says you can only expect to satisfy 80% of people in a large office.  If, say, you set the temperature to 22 C at 50% rel humidity (a common setting in Australia, in Perth, Western Australia we set offices to 23 C due to the warmer climate in Perth), 80% will be entirely happy, 10% will claim its too cold, and 10% will reckon its too hot.  I had one lady who continually claimed she was cold.  I cranked her office up to 25 C, and she still complained - and she wore a coat and everything.  You get that.  Nevertheless, most people, '''at rest''', will certainly not notice a 1 C rise in temp, or a 1% rise in humidity, nor for that matter a drop of 1% in oxygen level.  The alarm level in oxygen sensors (Crocons and the like) used by confined space workers is usually set at 2% low.  They'll be battling to notice a 10% rise in humdity.  All this changes if ambient temperature rises above body temperature, and it changes if they are doing physical work.  For a good discussion on what people tolerate, see Chapt 4 in Air Conditioning Engineering, 5Th Ed, W P Jones, Butterworth-Heinemen 2001, but bearing mind its an English book.  England is a cold country - what they think is so hot as to put people at risk is what Australians routinely work in.  In the aircon game, there's a whole lot of tricks done to counter what people do & think.  For instance, office workers who have their desk at a window typically claim they feel warmer in summer, colder in winter than their mates in the middle of the floor, even when instruments show they are getting air at the same temp, humidity, and velocity as everyone else, and they are not in the sun.  It is common to provide extra cool (summer) and warm (winter) air to folk near windows, for this reason.  So in answer to your question, altered in focus a bit, if a customer says he/she is too hot.cold, whatever, I showed them with instruments what they were getting.  But that does not always work, and the saying "the customer is always right" then applies.  I had responsibility for one office building in Perth that had been nicknamed by its occupants as the "sheep carrier" - it was 6 stories, long and narrow, and they reckoned it was too hot and they smelt.  Instrument recording over a full week showed temperature was 20 C (far too low officially, should be 23 C) and humidity 55% - a touch high , but only a touch.  I sent blokes up in to the ceiling spaces for a day and told them to essentially just make a lot of noise.  Then I had an article printed in the company magazine saying that we had spent x dollars on checking and refurbishing the aircon, and went round the building showing everyone my instruments.  A bit of a con perhaps, but it worked.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/124.182.16.199|124.182.16.199]] ([[User talk:124.182.16.199|talk]]) 06:45, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::::Ever had a car with an automatic climate control system ?  These have a thermostat and turn the heat or A/C on and off just like at home.  I find them to be entirely useless.  I feel hotter when the sun is shining on me, when frustrated by being stuck in traffic and/or running late, when I just came from exercising, when the humidity is higher, when eating or drinking something hot, etc., and cooler when damp with sweat, etc.  It's entirely incapable of determining when to turn the heater or A/C on and off to make me comfortable.  (To some extent the same is true at home, but conditions there don't change as rapidly, and it's less convenient to manually turn the furnace or A/C on and off.)  So, I override the automatic controls by setting the temp to either 60°F if I want cooling or 80°F if I want heating (72°F is room temp), then I adjust the fan speed as needed.  This works well, and avoids one other problem, when the fan blows on suddenly while I'm trying to listen to the radio: "There's a horrible accident out there with traffic backed up for miles, so, whatever you do, don't turn onto Route '''SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH''' because, as I said, that road is completely impassable and will be for hours." :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 07:04, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

::::::::I've always had a car with aircon - its essential in our climate and our traffic congestion.  Some more "automatic" than others.  I entirely agree with your thoughts here (except fan -see further on).  A tinted windscreen helps marginally re sun shining.  Cars here have a dark band running across the top of the windscreen - don't you have that too?  I had a Mercedes 220 at one stage - it had a much better "automatic" aircon system than the Fords and Holdens  (Holden is an Australian unique product - pretty good.  The company is owned by GM - gave us a fright last year when it looked like GM might fail.  The big Holdens use a locallised version of the GM Global V6 engine), but your comments would still apply.  In all cars I have experienced, the fan runs continuously at the speed it's set to, regardless of what the rest of the aircon & heater is doing.  The big upmarket Fords here have a form of what aircon folk call "enthalpy control" (ie takes into account humidity), but I have not owned one.  As these Fords are essentially close copies of US Fords, I assume you guys have this option too.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/124.182.45.47|124.182.45.47]] ([[User talk:124.182.45.47|talk]]) 13:16, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::::::We used to have that dark band (although here it's on the "windshield"), up until the 1970's.  I think there was a concern that it reduced visibility at night, so they were phased out.  Instead we use fold down visors, and premium models have extenders (horizontal and vertical), and separate visors for the side windows.  An automatic system that detects humidity is an improvement, but there are also those other factors, like turning into the sunlight or shadows.  Leaving the fan on might well be an improvement, too, since there are times when A/C plus fan feels too cold but turning both off feels too hot.  Having just the fan on might be better, at least for a few minutes.  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:59, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

::::::::::You amaze me.  We had external visors on our windscreen/shields back in the 1950's and 60's. Sideshields/visor for side windows were once factory options from Ford Australia and other makes too.  I haven't seen them for at least 30 years, except maybe on old Ford F250 redneck utes (what you guys call a "pickup" - only strange people who want to stay in the 1960's buy them).  Tinting is better as it doesn't add more wind noise and doesn't compromise pedestrian safety.  These days here, cars with factory option dark tint on all windows is not uncommon, but most would have the standard factory light tint on all windows with a dark band on the upper part of the windscreen/shield.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/121.215.59.126|121.215.59.126]] ([[User talk:121.215.59.126|talk]]) 02:39, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::::::::Wind noise ?  You must be talking about something entirely different, as visors are entirely inside the car.  There were "rain guards" on the outside on side windows, which deflected raindrops so they didn't fall inside a window open a crack, but they did cause wind noise and drag, so I haven't seen those in quite a while.  I also saw an aftermarket "brim" over the front windshield on a pickup once or twice, but that's rare.  BTW, it's 102°F (39°C) here tomorrow, so my A/C will get a good test. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 02:51, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

::::::::::::Ahh!  You meant ''those'' sorts of visors - the ones that are lightly padded and have a little concealed mirror on the inside of them for our ladies to study themselves - all cars have always had them, since at least the 1930's.  They are so obvious and universal I thought you must have meant the outside ones.  My house/home office aircon display says its 12 C outside as I type this.  Weather Bureau expects it to peak at 17 C (63 F) today - bloody cold mate!  I have it at 22 C (72 F) inside.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/121.215.59.126|121.215.59.126]] ([[User talk:121.215.59.126|talk]]) 03:32, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::::::::::I would absolutely love that weather.  All I'd need is a jacket when I go outside.  Perfect.  My point on the visors is how they've gone so overboard with them here, with all sorts of extenders and extra visors for the side windows. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 03:36, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::I also still wonder about "indentical".  It seems highly improbably that you made the same typo 3 out of 3 times, especially since the "n" is nowhere near the "i" or "d", so did you cut and paste it, for some reason, or did you just not know how to spell it ?  Fess up. :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 05:52, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

::::::I know perfectly well how to spell ''identical''.  But I type without looking at the keyboard and usually thinking ahead on what I'm going to say in the next paragraph.  My fingers tend to make the same sort of mistake each time - additional letters in some words.  You may have notice I often reverse two letters in a word.  Sometimes I type the letter one keyboard row above the correct one.  I'm not dyslexic - it's just what my fingers do for some reason.  Yep, my fingers, without me noticing, made the same error 3 times, and another 2 that you didn't spot either ("innitialy").  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/124.182.16.199|124.182.16.199]] ([[User talk:124.182.16.199|talk]]) 06:45, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::::"n" is a home key when typing.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/124.182.16.199|124.182.16.199]] ([[User talk:124.182.16.199|talk]]) 07:03, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

::::::::I see the problem then.  The home keys are ASDF (left hand) and JKL; (right hand), on a standard QWERTY keyboard (believe it or not I also teach typing to the visually impaired).  This allows you to reach up for the top row of letters (and numbers/symbols, but that's quite a reach) and down for the lower letters, with the thumbs used for the space bar.  You should have a slight bump on the F and J keys, to show you how to position your hands for touch typing.  Try it, this might solve your typing problem.  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 07:11, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

::::::::::The trouble is, I've been using computers for 40 years, and until the IBM PC came out in 1984 (or thereabouts) the keyboards were qwery but not standard key alingment.  I've never been formally trained in touch typing, but 40 years has gradually made me transition for 2-finger typing to 4/6 fingers and now something vaguely like touch typing using most fingers, and using ADC and NJK; as home.  Note only 3 keys/3 fingers on left.  Not doubt a professional touch typing teacher would be pretty horrified, but I can go pretty fast - as fast as most office girls.  I do a lot in MS Word, which has a good spell checker, and write a lot of software code, using error detecting compilers.  But for Ref Desk and email I don't worry about it.  None of my work colleagues worry about it either.  It's probably too late to overcome 40 years of bad typing habits.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/124.182.45.47|124.182.45.47]] ([[User talk:124.182.45.47|talk]]) 12:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::::::::Sorry to say, but your typing speed would be rated quite low, as they subtract a huge penalty for each mistake, figuring the time to correct mistakes into account.  (A typist who can type a page in 30 seconds isn't much use if she then spends a half hour correcting it.) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:54, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

::::::::::::That's a pretty wild exaggeration.  Not only a typist that fast would be a miracle, when I'm using MS Word, it fixes 98% of my errors itself, but in doing that chooses incorrect words a few times.  To fix the residual words and wrong words takes only a minute or so per page - especially as one learns the pattern in the errors.  Same when I am writing software - the compiler does not correct, but it highlights what it doesn't understand.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/121.215.59.126|121.215.59.126]] ([[User talk:121.215.59.126|talk]]) 02:39, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::::::::::Auto-correct is dangerous.  I was typing a letter to the boss, that said something like "In reference to your [[memorandum]]...", and the auto-correct didn't recognize the word, so made it "In reference to your [[memo]] [[random]]...", making it sound as if I was criticizing the random nature of the boss's memos.  Could have gotten me fired, if the boss didn't believe it was auto-correct that did it. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 02:59, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::::::True.  We've all had that sort of thing happen.  Hope your boss saw the funny side.  But lots of things we use have hazzards.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/121.215.59.126|121.215.59.126]] ([[User talk:121.215.59.126|talk]]) 03:18, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

::I notice that others have complained about your humorous posts, on the ground that humour is not serving the community.  I don't agree, and I often enjoy your humnour.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/124.182.16.199|124.182.16.199]] ([[User talk:124.182.16.199|talk]]) 04:35, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:::Thanks. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:49, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:Incidentally, my exchange with Jayron32 here is a good example of a polite disagreement, with no attempt to insult each other or question each other's competency: [[Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Alcohol_and_Christianity]]. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 09:14, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

::I had a look.  Definitely not a topic I could be in the least bit passionate about.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/124.182.45.47|124.182.45.47]] ([[User talk:124.182.45.47|talk]]) 13:37, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:::That's not why I referred you there.  It's an example of how to disagree with somebody without insulting them.  I see that Jayron has now turned to insults, too.  Oh well, at least it was a good example up until then.   [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:54, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

::::I knew why you refered me to it.  My sense of humour was too oblique for you.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/121.215.59.126|121.215.59.126]] ([[User talk:121.215.59.126|talk]]) 02:39, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

::::In good faith & trying to help, may I offer a comment on the debate between you and Jayron?  That's what friends are for.  I assume you were referring the bit where he/she starts "I'm not particularly interested in convincing you one way..."  I think that pargraph is only marginally insulting.  He's just saying you have your opinion, which you are entitled to, but you could listen to him, which would be nice.  Incidentally, I agree with your points you made in that topic, and think Jayron was wrong, but what I think about that not relevant.  We all have our faults, Stu.  Yours is that you don't like being challenged.  I've got faults too (apart from typing), but I'll keep quiet about them!  Maybe Jayron was wrong with the wording he chose, but you then had a choice - you could have said nothing; or you could have chosen words to calm things down. What you did, in saying "I didn't insult you, so why do you insult me..." was escalate it.  That solves nothing, and others will loose respect for both of you.  In your place I would have said nothing. An insult is at least as much about what the receiver makes it.  If you turned the other cheek, other readers would not think any less of you, at worst they'd just think Jayron got a bit frustrated.  Sometimes true diplomacy is finding the best way to repond to persons not so good at it, while not surrendering what you are entitled to keep.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/121.215.59.126|121.215.59.126]] ([[User talk:121.215.59.126|talk]]) 03:18, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::I don't mind being challenged, so long as it's done politely, and "you are being deliberately obtuse" is not polite.  Escalation would have involved me then insulting him even more, but I decided to take a different approach and point out that such language is a violation of policy, to see if that will work any better. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 03:29, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::UPDATE: My approach appears to have worked: [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities&diff=502741483&oldid=502741469]. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 10:27, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

::::::I think you are lucky that Jayron backed down, and it's sad that you found it necessary to tell me Jayron backed down. Many would not back down.  While he/she has backed down & appologised, you both look a bit silly.  While you did not insult Jayron, you did escalate - as I said, the reciever can choose not to be insulted, and sometimes that's the best way.  You chose to feel insulted, and in that way escalated, but Jayron may not have intended to insult you - it may have been just loose words.  If you had not bitten, other folk would just think Jayron was frustrated.  I didn't think he was especially intending to insult, I just thought he/she was frustrated, which is nobody's problem except Jayron's.  Now you have replaced one wrong (your good self insulted) with another (both of you looking foolish)  Does this not make sense?  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/120.145.148.180|120.145.148.180]] ([[User talk:120.145.148.180|talk]]) 11:41, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::::We seem to be hitting that cultural difference again.  Apparently Aussies think it's fine to insult each other, but that's not true here.  Here an insult requires an apology.  Perhaps it goes back to dueling times, where the proper response to a public insult was a public demand for an apology, and, if that was refused, then it was time to escalate to dueling (these days we hopefully can avoid violence, but not always, unfortunately).  I'm guessing dueling never took place in Australia, so that part of your culture is different.  You'll note that Jayron, also being from the US, seems to agree that an apology is in order following an insult, whether intentional or not.  We seem to have resolved the situation, hopefully with no residual bad feelings on either side, which would not be the case if I just tried to ignore it. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:04, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

::::::::I think you've hit the nail on the head.  You think of it in terms of a challenge that has to be fought and won, whereas I see it as an error in diplomacy, requiring a response where ''neither'' party looses any more than has already been lost.  Certainly, duelling of the pistols at 20 paces sort never happened in Australia, as the country is not old enough, however all of us of European descent (which is most of us, although we have a significant Asian population and a small native population), retaining some European culture, same as the US.  Probably more important in this context is that our pioneers were few and far between, in (for them) a harsh and unforgiving country.  In the Wild West days in USA, you had far greater population density than we did.  Our background meant asserting your rights was critical, but a fight could ultimately kill both of you, because the winner probably could not survive on his own.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/144.137.252.162|144.137.252.162]] ([[User talk:144.137.252.162|talk]]) 03:43, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

::::::::Something to bear in mind:  Assuming you and Jayron are both American and that therefore the exchange was culturally acceptable to both of you, and there's no hard feelings remaining, you should allow that others who access the site have a different culture, and may well see ''both'' of you as a bit silly, as explained.  Having said that, I hope there's no hard feelings between you & I either.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/144.137.252.162|144.137.252.162]] ([[User talk:144.137.252.162|talk]]) 03:43, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::::::Defending one's honor and such are far more a part of US culture, apparently, from the duel between two of our founding fathers ([[Alexander Hamilton]] and [[Aaron Burr]]) to modern shootings when one gang member "disses" (disrespects) another.  But since Australia was a penal colony to start with, I don't imagine criminals passed down much of a culture of needing to defend their reputation.  The US was more founded by religious nut-jobs, for whom reputation was critical. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:02, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

::::::::::Your implied view that criminals would not have much of a reputation to be concerned about sounds reasonable, but I doubt that it is a factor.  There are 6 States in Australia, not counting various islands and minor administrative territories, and only 2 of the States started as penal colonies, though limitted numbers of convicts were sent to other States on the request of locals wanting cheap labour.  It's difficult to estimate what fraction of our current population are descended from convicts, but it's probably less than 1% in the two States concerned, and even less elsewhere.  During the early years when convicts arived, free immigrants outnumbered convicts by 40:1, and substantial immigration has continued ever since.  Another aspect, albiet controversial and difficult to prove due to inadequate surviving English records, was that the British authorities were very selective about who they sent - essentially folk of good stock who had committed a minor crime after falling on hard times.  Australia was not just a dumping ground, England saw it as a strategic part of containing French expansion, and, later, a way of trading to prosperity - farm products for industrial goods.  Certainly it is remarkable how many convicts had excellent trade skills and even professional qualifications, such as architects and engineers - well above a typical English gaol population at the time.  And remarkable how low their crime rate was in Australia.  So they were keen to re-establish & maintain their good name.  I myself am descended from German immigrant vineyardists/winemakers (father's side) and mother emmigrated by invitation (Dad wanted a bride and the Australian Govt paid her fare) from Europe at the close of World War 2.  American media we see here gives a view that USA still has an large fraction of religious nuts  (''Scientific American'' magazine is paranoid about the "deep south" creationist types), but its this accurate?  I had a girlfried once who came from a small town in Colorado, and her outlook on life was indistinguishable from the average Australian girl, her school experience of singing your national anthem etc notwithstanding.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/120.145.11.195|120.145.11.195]] ([[User talk:120.145.11.195|talk]]) 05:05, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::::::::LOL @ "girlfried", sounds tasty but bad for your cholesterol. :-)

:::::::::::Colorado isn't bad.  It's the "red states", which tend to vote Republican, where you get people wanting to teach "creationism" in public schools as if it were science.  Here's a map showing the red and blue states from the last Presidential election, and you'll notice that CO is blue: [http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/election-outcome.jpg].  This map is a typical split, except for maybe VA (Virginia), NC (North Carolina, Jayron's state), and IA (Iowa), which normally are "red".  I'm from MI (Michigan), BTW. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 05:38, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

:This all reminds me of an old joke:

::American: "Is it true that many of you Aussies are descendents of criminals ?"

::Aussie: "How dare you !  I'll have you know we're descendent from criminals AND prostitutes !" [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 05:42, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

:::I hadn't heard that one - but it gave me a chuckle.  It sounds like a joke circulating here when Bush-2 was President of US:-
:::Australian diplomat:  "Is it true that your President is an unqualified idiot?"
:::American diplomat: "That's a lie!  He's a certified idiot."
:::Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/120.145.11.195|120.145.11.195]] ([[User talk:120.145.11.195|talk]]) 06:31, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

::::I've got some Presidential jokes:

::::1) Why did President Clinton wear wool boxers ?  ... It gets cold in the Oval Office, and they helped to keep his ankles warm.

::::2) President Bush: "Canada, isn't that one of our Northern states ?"  ... "No sir, we aren't scheduled to invade and annex Canada until next year." [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 07:04, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

== Creating talk pages ==

Hi Stu,

Its probably not a good idea to create a talk page for me.  As I get a different IP address each time I boot my PC up or restart my network connection (which I do quite a bit because I am a part time software developer, and change to a private network when testing) such talk pages will end up orfan junk doing nothing much other than wasting server space.

If you would like to have disourse with me without clogging up the Ref Desk, invite me to your talk page.

Cheers,
Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/60.230.211.9|60.230.211.9]] ([[User talk:60.230.211.9|talk]]) 13:16, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

:The obvious solution here is to create a user name, with a talk page, which works from any computer or dynamic I/P.  I suggest the name "Ratbone", or, if already taken, add some suffix to make it unique, like "Ratbone_gets_his_kicks_from_telling_people_they_are_wrong". :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 19:14, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

::I don't think "Ratbone" is already taken, as no other Ratbone has come forward and squawked.  I certainly would if I detected a false Ratbone.  However, I have not created a username/registered, as looking at the Admin talk page has shown that they have invested time trying to figure out who I am, whether or not I'm a troll, and whether or not I should be blocked.  I also notice that they have wanted to block others who have contributed constructively, yet done nothing about others (NOT your good self) who have been nothing but a nuisance.  It would seem that registering would make it easier for admins to apply sanctions, and I don't have time for that - I reckon I am constructive.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/120.145.55.176|120.145.55.176]] ([[User talk:120.145.55.176|talk]]) 05:36, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

:::Although this tendency to tell everybody they are wrong when they are not is quite annoying, I'm not aware of anything you've done I'd call a "blockable offense".  And, if they did block your registered name, you could always go back to your dynamic I/P. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 05:46, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

::::Easy StuRat, [[WP:BLOCK|blocks apply to individuals, not accounts]]. [[User:W203.27.72.5|203.27.72.5]] ([[User talk:W203.27.72.5|talk]]) 06:16, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::Yes, but blocking a dynamic I/P requires a range block, which may also block many other users inadvertently, so they are quite reluctant to do that. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:03, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
::::::Yeah meant banning actually. If he makes an account and that account is banned, then ''he is banned''. He still might be able to access wikipedia and post comments but if any editor realises that he is the same person that was banned, they are encouraged to delete any contributions he's made since then without giving any further explanation. That's in [[WP:BAN|the guideline for banning]]. [[User:W203.27.72.5|W203.27.72.5]] ([[User talk:W203.27.72.5|talk]]) 22:53, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

== unwelcome ==

I communicated with the editor in question.  You are not involved, so please keep your comments off my talk page, they are unwelcome. [[User:Medeis|μηδείς]] ([[User talk:Medeis|talk]]) 03:51, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

:It was necessary to create a record there, so I can prove you were notified, in case you repeat this action again, and I must request that you be blocked.  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 03:55, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Diffs:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Medeis&diff=502349783&oldid=502349499]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Medeis&curid=27227716&diff=502350940&oldid=502350667]

== RD talk page wikidrama ==

Hi StuRat. That user just keeps banging on on the RD talk page about how none of us understand the ref desk policies for some vague reasons. I think it would be better to ignore him or close the conversation at it serves no purpose other than to generate [[WP:DRAMA|drama]]. [[User:W203.27.72.5|203.27.72.5]] ([[User talk:W203.27.72.5|talk]]) 06:21, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

:Yea, maybe we should hat the whole thing as trolling. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 06:26, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

::Dang...I must have posted on this page just as you started typing your reply to him. Don't get me wrong, I agree with every word you said...it's just that this dead horse is starting to go rotten. [[User:W203.27.72.5|203.27.72.5]] ([[User talk:W203.27.72.5|talk]]) 06:30, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

:::Yep, fish and dead horses stink after 3 days. :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 06:33, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
::::Maybe a good [[WP:TROUT|beating with a dead fish]] is in order. [[User:W203.27.72.5|203.27.72.5]] ([[User talk:W203.27.72.5|talk]]) 08:27, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

::Looks like it's 203.27.72.5 who doesn't read too good.  I haven't in the slightest been claiming that folk don't understand policy.  What I have said is that I believe that an addition to policy would improve things.  Nothing wrong with that, surely.  I'm glad you think (previous topic) I have not done anything for which blocking would be appropriate.  I also note that other WP users have said more than once that my posts are of value, and more than one wikipedian wants me to contribute further.  Apart from you two, it's admin folk who seem to have a problem, and most certainly not just with me.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/121.215.146.212|121.215.146.212]] ([[User talk:121.215.146.212|talk]]) 11:02, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
:Haha...take it easy Ratbone. We're not talking about you. It's [[Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk/Science#Original_research_and_conspiracy_theory|this dramafest]] that's got our knickers in a knot. Thanks for answering [[Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#Blood_agents|my question]] by the way! [[User:W203.27.72.5|203.27.72.5]] ([[User talk:W203.27.72.5|talk]]) 11:30, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
::No worries.  Thanks.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/121.215.146.212|121.215.146.212]] ([[User talk:121.215.146.212|talk]]) 12:00, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

== Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Sunny Singh, IX 'D' of DAV Sasaram ==

Can you, please, create a redirect of the page [[Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Sunny Singh, IX 'D' of DAV Sasaram]]? This title is very long, people often commit mistake while typing such a long title. I, only, request you to create a redirect (short which can typed easily) of mentioned page. Thanks for help.  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Sunnysinghthebaba|Sunnysinghthebaba]] ([[User talk:Sunnysinghthebaba|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sunnysinghthebaba|contribs]]) 16:14, 22 July 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:You can't create a redirect until there is an article.  There's already an article at [[Sunny Singh]], presumably for a different person.  I suggest [[Sunny Singh IX]] for the redirect, although it might be better just to make that the article name and change the longer name into the redirect.  Once the article is created, let me know, and I will add the redirect.  (You could also do it yourself, but I take it you don't know how or feel uncomfortable doing so.) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:31, 22 July 2012 (UTC)


==Mental health is indeed what I'm, talking about==
I'm talking about those countries mental health acre systems. Yes. How good are their mental health systems? Do they have shrinks and mental hospitals? [[User:Buffyfan84|Buffyfan84]] ([[User talk:Buffyfan84|talk]]) 04:43, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

:In that case, you should ask how good those nations' mental health systems are, rather than how stable those nations' mental health are. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 04:50, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

== Just curious! ==

Hello StuRat, I have been watching your contribution for a while. You put really exceptional effort in helping people in reference desk on various subjects. Do you study a lot on different subjects (books)? Just curious. <small>I'm getting inspired by you :)</small>.--[[User:NAHID|'''NAH''']][[User talk:NAHID|''ID'']]  20:13, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

:Thanks, I do study lots of things, but my reading is exclusively online.  I also watch lots of documentaries.  Is there any particular field you are interested in ? [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 20:16, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

:*Yeah I prefer to read books. Reading on online sometimes put stresses on eyes. My field of interests are bit wide (but not like you). They include: Human Resource Management, Psychology, Economics, Health and Fitness, Self-Help (books) and computer and technology.--[[User:NAHID|'''NAH''']][[User talk:NAHID|''ID'']]  21:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

:::I find it helps a lot to change the background color to black and to magnify text.  Of course, this requires a large, hi-res screen.  Mine is 1920×1280.  Also make sure the screen is nice and bright. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 21:12, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

:Are you a retired guy StuRat?  You certainly put a lot of time in on WP and Ref Desk.  Your user page says you are a computer programmer.  I too was a computer programmer/analyst at one stage, but in that field when you get past age 35 or so, you either get into management or you get out, or you get pushed out.  I too am familiar with Fortran - I rather like it, but I never tell prospective employers that!  The best language though is object oriented Pascal (compact, fast, simple, strongly typed & has structured variables) - it would these days be risky telling prospective employers that too.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/124.182.177.65|124.182.177.65]] ([[User talk:124.182.177.65|talk]]) 14:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

::Retired for now, yes.  I may go back to work some day.  I really want to be my own boss, though, and set my own hours, but haven't yet figured out how to do that yet.  I learned Pascal as my second language after BASIC (Fortran was 3rd).  I liked Turbo Pascal, since it had a nice debugger built in.  I really can't stand object oriented languages, they seem to make everything overly complicated, resulting in more bugs. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 18:20, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

:::Ahah!  Perhaps we both retained a liking for something that was early in our careers.  When I was a first year at university, they taught us Fortran first, and ''then'' BASIC!  Then in third year, the then new Pascal.  The worst language in my experience is Forth, used in the process engineering industry & in telecoms(and it's disgustingly bad - to do something that takes 10 lines of self-documenting Pascal can take 500 unreadable lines in Forth).  Though maybe Lisp, used in CAD/CAE, is the most un- programmer friendly.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/120.145.8.94|120.145.8.94]] ([[User talk:120.145.8.94|talk]]) 01:48, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

::::There was a C++ programmer who insisted that was better than Fortran, yet he could never keep straight whether he was passing a variable by pointer, reference, or address, and I had to help him debug his own code. :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat#top|talk]]) 01:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

:::::Yep.  Been there, done that.  That's why some guy in Microsoft invented Hungarian Notation - a kludge to partially overcome the fact the C++ is very weakly typed.  In Pascal the strong typing means that the compiler will catch that sort of thing, but you can trick it.  In object oriented programming for graphics applications though, one tends to end up passing pointers that point to pointers - that sorts the men from the boys.  Those young website whippersnappers take up surfing then.  Ratbone[[Special:Contributions/120.145.8.94|120.145.8.94]] ([[User talk:120.145.8.94|talk]]) 02:57, 1 August 2012 (UTC)