View source for User talk:Wikiuser1314

'''Welcome to my talk page. Feel free to leave a messeage for any question or discussion.'''

==Welcome==

Hi Wikiuser1314, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for [[Special:Contributions/Wikiuser1314|your contributions]]. I hope you like it here and decide to stay. Our [[Help:Introduction|intro page]] provides helpful information for new users—please check it out! If you have any questions, you can get help from experienced editors at [[WP:Teahouse|the Teahouse]].  Happy editing! <!-- Template:W-short -->[[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]] ([[User talk:Austronesier|talk]]) 15:24, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

==Mapping==
[[File:Archaeogenetic_analysis_of_human_skin_pigmentation_in_Europe.jpg|thumb]]
Hi Wikiuser1314. Do you realize that the attached  map is wrong, in that it places the [[Ancient North Eurasian|ANE]] just a few kilometers east of [[Moscow]], and the [[Nganasans]] just above them? The map also contradicts the text of the article it is extracted from, since the author clearly states that the ANEs were around Lake Baikal (of course): the map, in its eastern part, is very obviously the result of [[artistic license]]. AFAIK, nothing prohibits us on Wikipedia from creating our own maps based on reliable sources and geographical accuracy, either by drawing them from scratch, or by using the help of Creative Commons material, which indeed is the case of [[:File:Archaeogenetic analysis of human skin pigmentation in Europe (with Asia geographic extension).png|this map]]. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 10:23, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
:Hi {{reply to|User:पाटलिपुत्र}} I am aware that the published map is not accurate either. But the map you made has specific errors too, which should be corrected before it is shown in Wikipedia articles. The blonde hair genes were first found among the Afontova Gora 3 sample (c. 17-18 kya) , which is significantly younger than ANE Malta (c. 24 kya) and further West ([[Afontova Gora]] = Southern Siberia, Northwest of the Altai mountains). I could imagine that you adjust the map accordingly; something like showing AG3 as descended group from ANE (Malta), and that among this (AG3) population, the gene allele originated (or was detected), and subsequently spreaded westwards through the EHG etc. to make this more clear. - In regards with biomedical topics related to humans (such as phenotypes), we should be especially careful. I would actually prefer to remove it completely, but it is sourced and others have probably a different view on that. Anyway, thank you for your many recent helpful edits. If you could adjust your new map in regards to the mentioned points, I will accept the inclusion of this one. Thank you again.[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 11:33, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
::[[File:Archaeogenetic analysis of human skin pigmentation in Europe (with Asia geographic extension).png|thumb|upright=3]]This should be a geographically accurate rendition of the source article (when you click on the map, you might have to refresh your file cache to see it, or click on the last version on Commons). <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 12:20, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
:::{{reply to|User:पाटलिपुत्र}} thanks, one, purely optical suggestion is to colour the arrow going westwards to the EHG (and perhaps following arrows from the EHG) in the more yellowish colour, such as the color of the AG circle, to differentiate them and the spread of the gene from other ANE like geneflow (arrows to Nganasans and Native Americans). (If these changes are technically possible.) I must apologize for the hastily reverts, I should have simply pointed these things out first.[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 13:26, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
{{od}}[[File:Archaeogenetic analysis of human skin pigmentation in Europe (with Asia geographic extension).png|thumb|upright=2.9]]Yes, the arrow color is a good idea, it improves clarity. Feel free to restore this more accurate map to the articles. Thanks <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 13:57, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
:Nice! Yes, I will restore the map in the respective articles.[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 14:01, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

{{clear}}
==Clickable template==
{{Phylogenetic tree for ancient Eurasians}}
Hi Wikiuser1314! In case you're interested, I've created a clickable version of your phylogenetic tree: just use teh code <nowiki>{{Phylogenetic tree for ancient Eurasians}}</nowiki> (you don't have to use it if you don't like it!) Best <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 17:06, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
:Hi! Thank you, it's a great idea.[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 17:19, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

==Thank you==
Hi Wikiuser1314, thank you very much for following through and creating [[East-Eurasian]], I think that helps resolve the issues we were facing over at [[Genetic history of East Asians]]. I think you've made a great start to the article. I have made a few changes to your article, hope that's ok with you. [[User:Saouirse|Saouirse]] ([[User talk:Saouirse|talk]]) 01:20, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
:No problem, and thank you too.[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 06:31, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
::Hi, I left a message for you on the Ancient East Eurasians talk page. I tried to "@" you but it didn't work for some reason (maybe I didn't do it properly), so I thought I'd let you know here. [[User:Saouirse|Saouirse]] ([[User talk:Saouirse|talk]]) 14:18, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

== A kitten for you! ==

[[File:Cucciolo gatto Bibo.jpg|left|150px]]
Found your graphic on East Eurasian population genetics very useful!  https:/upwiki/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Phylogenetic_structure_of_Eastern_Eurasians.png/1280px-Phylogenetic_structure_of_Eastern_Eurasians.png

[[User:Psyche da mike24|Psyche da mike24]] ([[User talk:Psyche da mike24|talk]]) 17:21, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
<br style="clear: both;"/>
:Thank you![[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 19:33, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

==Image==
Hi Wikiuser1314. I have the impression that [[:File:Demographic history of the Eurasian Steppe.jpg|this image]] is non-free ("non commercial": "Distributed under a Creative Commons Attribution NonCommercial License 4.0 (CC BY-NC)"). If so, we cannot use it on Wikipedia. Please confirm. <span style=" 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 05:04, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
:Hi {{reply to|user:पाटलिपुत्र}}, as far as I can tell, the picture/paper is "open access":
::{{tq|Attribution NonCommercial License 4.0 (CC BY-NC). https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ This is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial license, which permits use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, so long as the resultant use is not for commercial advantage and provided the original work is properly cited.}}
:It seems to be correct that it is "'''noncommercial'''". I was of the impression that we can use it on Wikipedia, as we do not use it for commercial advantages and the authors are cited. But for the case to have been wrong, feel free to remove it (I may do it later myself, but have less time this week). Thanks for the information. ;) —[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 06:09, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
::Yes "non commercial" is not accepted, as Wikipedia content must be reusable on all platforms, including commercial ones... ("Media licensed exclusively under non-commercial only licenses (like CC BY-NC-SA) are not accepted either." [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Licensing]). With your agreement above, I will have the file removed. Sorry for the inconvenience. Best <span style=" 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 06:25, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
:::No problem, thank you again.–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 15:17, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
::::{{reply to|user:पाटलिपुत्र}}, I just got aware that this PCA is too "non-commercial": [https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PCA_and_ADMIXTURE_analyses_for_Eurasian_Steppe_nomads.jpg], as it is from the same paper. Therefore not accepted either. It should probably be deleted as well.-[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 12:05, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
:::::I've removed the PCA for every case.-[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 12:25, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
::::::OK, I will add a <nowiki>{{speedy delete}}</nowiki> tag on Commons. <span style=" 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 13:04, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Thank you!–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 13:38, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

== Yang et al paper ==

Melinda Yang states that her paper is a bit outdated here: https://twitter.com/myanglab/status/1480709556057653253 . But, I find her paper cited in various articles like [[Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia|https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia]] and [[Genetic history of East Asians|https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_East_Asians]] . Does the articles that cite the paper need updating in this regard? Can you look into this? Thanks. [[User:Ionian9876|Ionian9876]] ([[User talk:Ionian9876|talk]]) 08:40, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
:No, the paper is not outdated in any way, but rather she refers to some findings during the time of which this review was written and published - which are for understandable reasons not included in her review. This is generally referring to Eurasia, not South or East Asia specifically. There is also another 2023 review including Melinda Yang, which has some additional points, but do not make the previous review redundant. The 2023 review (html or pdf version):[http://www.anthropol.ac.cn/EN/10.16359/j.1000-3193/AAS.2023.0010]. Regards–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 06:33, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

== West Eurasian phylogenetic tree ==

Hi {{ping|Austronesier}}, thanks for your comment regarding the phylogenetic tree of West Eurasians. I agree, this one is a bit more tricky because of the several admixture events, including Basal, East and internal ones. I am not exactly sure how to handle it. I could implement admixture notes/arrows as done on the UP_Siberian (ANE) branch. As for the affinity between WHG (Villabruna) and Anatolian HGs, is it not because of WHG-like geneflow into Anatolian HGs, as pointed out in this 2022[https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2022.04.008] paper (Figure 3)? As far as I can tell, there is sadly currently no published paper showing a phylogenetic tree with all relevant lineages. The only exception I am aware of would be ME Allentoft et al. (2022 pre-print) [https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.05.04.490594v5]; Extended Data Fig. 5. But this one is not useable until published - and even than quite hard to recreate in the currently used form. Do you have any suggestions for improving this tree? Regards- [[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 21:23, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
:I think time is simply not ripe yet for a broad-sweep diagram at the current state of research. It would be good to see the Allentoft-preprint finally published (isn't it ironic that there already two stuck preprints out there that have a Paleolithic specimen from the Caucasus as a pivotal contributor of W. Eurasian lineages?). But even then we should have a number of sources that confirm its rough outline of the ancestral connection between the various West Eurasian lineages. Some aspects are well-supported by multiple sources (like the Basal ingression in West Asia, or EHG as the result of ANE-WHG admixture), but the relations at the deepest level are still quite a riddle, like the exact relation of the West Eurasian-derived components in ANE and CHG (and, for that matter, also Anatolian HGs and Natufians).
:As for the potential affililations of the Villabruna cluster, Fu et al. (2016) found that the non-Basal component of CHG is more closely related to the Villabruna cluster than to Early Upper Palaeolithic Europeans (including Kostenki14 and Vestonice16); Villalba-Mouca (2023) also cite earlier research when they write: "Villabruna-like ancestry was also detected in the non-basal Eurasian part of the ancestry of Anatolian HG and Natufians, which suggested bidirectionality, that is a contribution of Villabruna-like ancestry to ancient Near Easterners before ~15 cal kyr BP." So there is a developing consensus that the non-basal Eurasian part of all three known ancient West Asian lingeages is most closely linked to the Villabruna cluster.
:In any case, even if clearer picture emerges in the near future, I doubt that we will be able to capture it in a plain cladistic diagram. –[[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]] ([[User talk:Austronesier|talk]]) 19:57, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

::Thanks for the reply. Yep its a bit annoying that these two papers are stuck in pre-print status. Yet, I have at least a positive feeling that Allentoft et al. will be published one day, afterall it is a huge amount of data which seemingly needs some time. Regarding "but the relations at the deepest level are still quite a riddle, like the exact relation of the West Eurasian-derived components in ANE and CHG (and, for that matter, also Anatolian HGs and Natufians).", I totally agree. My take on may be too simplistic here and these deep clades with regard to ANE, CHG but also the Paleolithic European specimens are not that clear yet. I will need to have more patience on yet not clear topics. - If Allentoft et al. gets published, we may just use that graphic (if it is under common use) as possible phylogenetic structure. –[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 14:34, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
:::Talkign about preprints, this one[https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.10.01.560332v2] has amazing data (just in case you haven't seen it). It's a pity that the "Forest-steppe hunter-gatherer" ancestry only plays a secondary role in this paper, and it is quite upsetting that like with "Southern Arc"-paper, they haven't consulted linguists for their speculations about linguistic homelands and expansions. But still, very worth reading (and waiting for its publication). Cheers! –[[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]] ([[User talk:Austronesier|talk]]) 12:25, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
::::Thanks, yes this is indeed an interesting paper. Hopefully it will not take too long to be published. Here is another quite similar paper from October[https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.10.01.560195v1.full]. I hope there will be more cooperation between geneticists and linguists on such questions. Anyway still interesting. Cheers!–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 09:09, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

== Update to population of Azerbaijan ==

Hi could you please update the population of Azerbaijan in “Turkic People” page. Here’s the source: http://data.un.org/en/iso/az.html . The current population is 10,223,000 million. Additional sources(less reliable sources): https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AZE/azerbaijan/population , https://www.statista.com/statistics/457529/total-population-of-azerbaijan/ [[User:Fuad383|Fuad383]] ([[User talk:Fuad383|talk]]) 17:58, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

:Please make an edit request with the exact changes you want to make on the talk page of [[Turkic peoples]], and with reliable references. Thanks.–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 07:54, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

==Not yet published material==
Hi Wikiuser 1314! Just a thought... regarding [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Seima-Turbino_culture&curid=23756314&diff=1184980586&oldid=1184892354], do we really have to wait for the final publication of a paper to mention it? For example we have: Per [[WP:RS]] "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications." I mean, of course it is preferable to have already published/ peer-reviewed sources, but if the paper is from a recognized specialist, doesn't it mean that we can use it anyway, until we can update it once it is officially published? Best <span style=" 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 20:45, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
:Hi पाटलिपुत्र! I am not sure, but we may do so. Its a bit a grey-zone I guess. If you think we should include it, I will restore it later. If so, we should also add more on the context of this paper's findings, but I will need to read it again before. Your thougts?-[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 20:55, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
::I guess, if the content of the paper is reasonnable (not "revolutionary"), and if the authors are reliable, it should be quite fine. Best <span style=" 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 21:07, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
:::I have tried to reinclude it, but there seem to be some problems. The given figure of haplogroups does not fit the text-based statements of the papers findings, so I removed the numbers until this gets more clear/corrected. I also added context based on the authors statement regarding the spread of Uralic. If you want, you can try to further improve the section/read the pre-print. Another relevant one may be this one[https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.10.01.560332v2]. Regards–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 22:42, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Following our "exchange"[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Ganj_Dareh&diff=prev&oldid=1185590940][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=1185610612&oldid=1185590940&title=Ganj_Dareh], I should clarify that I am aware of the above-cited passage in [[WP:SPS]]. But consideration of due weight based on reflection in secondary sources is still just as important, all the more so with non (or yet) peer-reviewed sources. Even peer-reviewed papers are better avoided until secondary sources have cited them and evaluated their merits. –[[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]] ([[User talk:Austronesier|talk]]) 22:25, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
:I understand, I agree with your view. Thanks for your clarification. Regards–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 22:36, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== ArbCom 2023 Elections voter message ==

<div class="ivmbox " style="margin-bottom: 1em; border: 1px solid #AAA; background-color: ivory; padding: 0.5em; display: flex; align-items: center; ">
<div class="ivmbox-image" style="padding-left:1px; padding-right:0.5em; flex: 1 0 40px; max-width: 100px">[[File:Scale of justice 2.svg|40px]]</div>
<div class="ivmbox-text">
Hello! Voting in the '''[[WP:ACE2023|2023 Arbitration Committee elections]]''' is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on {{#time:l, j F Y|{{Arbitration Committee candidate/data|2023|end}}-1 day}}. All '''[[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2023#Election timeline|eligible users]]''' are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The [[WP:ARBCOM|Arbitration Committee]] is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration|Wikipedia arbitration process]]. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose [[WP:BAN|site bans]], [[WP:TBAN|topic bans]], editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy|arbitration policy]] describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2023 election, please review [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2023/Candidates|the candidates]] and submit your choices on the '''[[Special:SecurePoll/vote/{{Arbitration Committee candidate/data|2023|poll}}|voting page]]'''.  If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{tlx|NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. <small>[[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|talk]]) 00:37, 28 November 2023 (UTC)</small>

</div>
</div>
<!-- Message sent by User:Illusion Flame@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2023/Coordination/MM/09&oldid=1187132518 -->

== Kusuma et al. about Punan Batu ==

Hi Wikiuser1314, I have removed the illustrations from Kusuma et al. at various places. In some articles, it was only peripherically related (such as [[:Aboriginal Australians]]). Also, their results are quite surprising, so we should wait for at least some mentions in other sources before giving them undue/premature prominence here in Wikipedia. I appreciate your enthusiasm and your quest for the "big picture", but sometimes you should pause for a second and look at things from a [[WP:DUE]] perspective (is the source cited by others; is it of primary relevance to the article.. etc.?). [[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]] ([[User talk:Austronesier|talk]]) 21:52, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
::Hi, no problem, I added it there (Aboriginal and Indigenous Australians) because they were mentioned in the description of the illustration, but have no objection to its removal there. I think it is relevant for [[Peopling of Southeast Asia]] and corroborates previous findings, such as Carlhoff et al. 2021 regarding the initial Australasian wave, followed by Tianyuan/Onge like geneflow, and subsequently MESA (Austroasiatic-like) and TWN Austronesian-like waves. The only new thing is the Punan-lineage and its makeup, which may need clarification.
:::{{tq|To investigate this, we draw on the recently reported pre-Holocene aDNA sample from Leang Panninge5 (South Sulawesi), which shows composite Papuan/ancient Asian-related (Tianyuan/Onge) ancestry. We observe a tentative signal of shared ancestry between the Punan Batu and Leang Panninge using D-statistics (Figure 4A), which resolves as a weak admixture node in our qpGraphs (Figure 4B; ∼1% supported in best-fitting graph, with 0%–2.1% confidence interval). Given the limited nature of this signal, we sought to confirm it using TreeMix (Figure 4C) and again detected a weak connection between the Punan Batu and the Leang Panninge sample.}}
::Figure 4:Figure 4. Formal admixture tests involving ancient Leang Panninge data
::But I agree its important to keep WP:DUE in the mind.
::Figure 5. Schematic summary of a proposed population settlement in the region is a quite good illustrations of what we know so far. But if you think its still too early to included it into the overview article [[Peopling of Southeast Asia]] I won't object either. :)
::Btw. this 2022 review paper is also quite usefull for SEA/Oceania:<ref>https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4425/13/12/2373</ref>
::It also mentiones the findings of Carlhoff et al. which were further corroborated by Kusuma et al.:
:::{{tq|In 2021, the first Wallacean paleogenome was published from an ~8000-year-old female from Leang Panninge in southern Sulawesi, which notably predates the arrival of Austronesian seafarers to this region. Ancestry decomposition and f-statistic analyses showed that the Leang Panninge specimen has two distinct genetic ancestries, with one component that is genetically equidistant to both modern Indigenous Australians and Papuans, and another that is genetically closer to ancient East Asian and modern Andamanese (Onge) populations. Admixture graph models suggest that the Australo-Papuan-like component may reflect the genetic profile of the initial AMH migrants to ISEA, with subsequent mixing with an unknown Asian lineage resulting in the Leang Panninge specimen’s distinctive dual ancestry.}}
::Anyway, thanks for your explanation and view. Regards.–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 10:35, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
:::I have long planned to work on [[:Peopling_of_Southeast_Asia#Genetics]] and also [[:Ancient Southern East Asian]] (thanks btw for creating the article!), but I just don't have the leisure for it these days. Yes, the review article by Taufik et al. is a good starting point for putting the Toalean individual from Leang Panninge into the big picture.
:::I am always a bit skeptcial about using diagrams from published articles as they tend to emphasize the novel findings of the study (here: (B) Punan Batu as a basal cSEA lineage). When people not familiar with the topic see the diagram, they cannot distinguish between what is established consensus (C, the MSEA vs. Austronesian part of B, and also slowly, A) and what is still fresh and not yet confirmed by others in the field. But sure, it won't hurt to put the Punan Batu-thing into the prose, without the visual prominence, and with proper in-text attribution etc. I'll be happy to include it when I start to update the two above-mentioned articles, and also [[:Genetic_history_of_East_Asians#Southeast_Asians]] which in its current shape gives me a shudder, with its focus to peripheral things and especially the term "South Eurasians". Maybe you can do a quick fix, if I don't manage to revise it soon. –[[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]] ([[User talk:Austronesier|talk]]) 22:28, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Ture that, I sometimes forget that all these things and terms may be quite a bit confusing for people not familiar with the topic. I will look at [[Genetic_history_of_East_Asians#Southeast_Asians]], I think the whole article needs some work. I am also not sure what to do with the "genetic sections" of various ethnic groups which often also have an own article or an own section in their respective main article. Maybe it should all be shortened with "Genetic history of East Asians" be primarily centered on the overall genetic history, while information on specific groups be secondary (and linked to their respective article or sections, which likely also need cleanup.). Regards.–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 14:34, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::Hi, I have taken shot at a revised version of [[Ancient Southern East Asian]]. You might want to have a look: [[:User:Austronesier/sandbox5]]. Feel free to comment in the talk page of the sandbox page. I have made use of most of the sources in your version, but I have taken out all speculations in Larena et al. about migration dates into the Philippines. Their gross error is to equate split dates with the time of arrival in the Philippines. E.g. while a 11kya split time for AA and AN related ancestries seems plausible (at least for the ASEA part in the AA-like ancestry), it is unlikely that the first distinctly AA-like people instantly hopped to the Philippines. For all we know, they took a long journey via MSEA and western Indonesia before they arrived in southern Philippines. I have also taken out Gakuhari et al. I know it was meant to set an implicit upper bound for the ASEA-ANEA split, but the authors don't draw this conclusion.
:::::I've tried as much as possible to extract the current consensus narrative from secondary sources, which also means I will not include the Punan Batu paper (at least in this article). –[[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]] ([[User talk:Austronesier|talk]]) 22:16, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::Hi, looks great! –[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 11:23, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

== Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia ==

Arent the new images added by you [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Genetics_and_archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia&diff=1189089362&oldid=1189005065 here] are copyrighted? You seem to have taken a copied it from the papers. - [[User:Fylindfotberserk|Fylindfotberserk]] ([[User talk:Fylindfotberserk|talk]]) 16:59, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
:Hi {{reply to|user:Fylindfotberserk}}, Yelmen, Tagore and Das et al. are CC BY 4:
::{{tq|Open Access This article is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License}}
:while Narasimhan 2019 is Copyright 2019 Science Journals Default license. I am not sure if we can use that one, thus I changed these graphics. See:<ref>https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aat7487<ref/>
::{{tq|Copyright © 2019 The Authors, some rights reserved; exclusive licensee American Association for the Advancement of Science. No claim to original U.S. Government Works. This is an article distributed under the terms of the Science Journals Default License.}}
:If it is useable, just ignore my changes. Any thoughts? Regards–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 17:24, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

::The image wasn't flagged for copyvio, but I'll make an 'own version' of it to stay on the safe side. The Narsimhan 2018/19 graph provides a nice overview of the South Asian genetics without being overly complicated and jargon-nish for [[WP:READER]]S. After all this research forms the basis of the newer ones. Hence I'll keep it. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:QpGraph_model_of_N_and_S_ancestries_of_South_Asians.jpg This] one for example can be added [[Genetics_and_archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia#Autosomal_DNA_variation|here]] since it is detailed. - [[User:Fylindfotberserk|Fylindfotberserk]] ([[User talk:Fylindfotberserk|talk]]) 17:48, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

:::Ok, thanks for the clarification. :) Regards.–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 18:07, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

==Scythian-Saka gradient==
[[File:Scythian cultures and their genetic makeup.png|thumb]]
Hi Wikiuser1314! Regarding your great map of the Scythians/Sakas, are you sure that the western Scythians should be represented as 100% WSH? This article seems to claim that they also had a significant Saka component: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982219307122 . Apparently, there is also something similar going on with the [[Sauromatians]] and [[Sarmatians]]. I started this article [[Filippovka kurgans]], characteristic of the final-Sauromatian and early-Sarmantian, and it seems the deceased where essentially similar to Central Asian Sakas (see "Anthropology")... Best <span style=" 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 21:41, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
:Hi {{reply to|user:पाटलिपुत्र}}, thanks for your comment, I will look at this and edit the different groups or add subgroups if neccessary. The "Scythian" chart at the far left should represent "Hungarian Scythians" which lacked the eastern "Altaian" component.
::{{tq|Overall, both methods provided similar (Pearson r2 > 0.9; p < 0.01) results (Figure 3), highlighting an increase in eastern—Altaian—ancestry in Scythians and Sarmatians (except the Hungarian Scythians that behave as outliers) compared to populations predating them.}}
:I will review it and distinguish Hungarian Scythians and the ones in Ukraine (eg. an own chart for them). Thanks again! Regards.–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 23:00, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
::Yes... I am not sure if "Hungarian Scythians" can be considered as "core" representative Western Scythians in your synthetic map (their history is confused and uncertain, although they are supposed to have migrated from Scythian core areas around the Black Sea). On the contrary Ukrainian Scythians surely could be considered as "core" and representative. In addition, lack of eastern ancestry for Hungarian Scythians only appears as an "outlier" phenomenon in their single sub-group, and only in one analytical method ([[CP/NNLS]]), whereas the other method ([[QpAdm]]) does show eastern Saka admixture like all other Scythian groups. Given the contradictory information and outlier status of the "Hungary Scythians", maybe the best solution would be to leave them out of your global synthetic map, and replace them with the Ukrainian Scythians group instead... The resulting map would be more consistent with the modern consensus towards a general east>west cultural and migratory flux during the Scythian period (''"This is compatible with a moderate westward increase of the Altaian genetic component in the Steppe during the Scythian period, implying the involvement of at least some degree of migration (east to west; the more complicated scenarios that have been proposed [11] are not supported by our results) in the spread of the Scythian culture. This fits the previous observation that the Iron Age nomads of the western Eurasian Steppe were not direct descendants of the Bronze Age population"'' [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982219307122]). <span style=" 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 08:25, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Hi {{reply to|user:पाटलिपुत्र}} I have just updated the map :) ...althought I have left in the Hungarian ones as I just saw your recent comment now. If you think we should remove them completely, than I can cut them out. Regards.–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 09:11, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Is [https://commons.wikimedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=File:Scythian_cultures_and_their_genetic_makeup.png&oldid=830303484 this] pie chart map based on actual percentages found in research papers or own work based on third-party calculators? - [[User:Fylindfotberserk|Fylindfotberserk]] ([[User talk:Fylindfotberserk|talk]]) 09:16, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::Hi {{reply to|user:Fylindfotberserk}} It was based on the results of several papers, such as Jeong et al. (2020) or Järve et al. 2021. As they all used different proxies (E Altaian, Baikal EBA, Khövsgöl, etc.) I extracted the different percentages in excel and compared them with the makeup of the used proxies (eg. papers data on ANA, Baikal EBA, Khövsgöl, etc. see the ones in [[Ancient Northeast Asian]]). Based on that I calculated the ANA component percentages. For verification I modeled the average samples with G25 Vahaduo  to compare the calculated results, which largely fitted (+/- 1-2%). In this regard, they are based on the papers, but synthetic. If this is a problem, I can adapt the map to present the results of Järve et al. 2021 solely, as this paper has quite a good summary on the different samples. See Figure 3. ''Inferred Ancestry Proportions in Scythian and Sarmatian Groups and Groups Pre- and Postdating Them''. This may actually be a better solution than the synthetic one. Thoughts?–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 09:29, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::I'd suggest adapting it per the Järve et al. 2021 paper or whichever is the most comprehensive. Using personal models, findings from multiple papers, proxies and third-party calc are text book examples of [[WP:OR]]. - [[User:Fylindfotberserk|Fylindfotberserk]] ([[User talk:Fylindfotberserk|talk]]) 09:36, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Ok, than I will do so. :) {{reply to|user:पाटलिपुत्र}} do you agree with using Järve et al., or do you have suggestions for another paper? Thanks.–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 09:40, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::Järve et al. 2021 sounds like a good basis (and I don't known of a better one). As to Hungarian Scythians, because of their contradictory data ([[CP/NNLS]] shows no Eastern ancestry, but [[QpAdm]] does) and outlier status, I think we should probably leave them out of the simplified presentation... except if someone has a better idea... <span style=" 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 09:47, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::It might also be better to remove the Khosvgols and Slab-grave, as, at first sight, it could give the impression that they belong to the Scythian/Saka group... <span style=" 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 09:49, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::{{reply to|user:पाटलिपुत्र}} and {{reply to|user:Fylindfotberserk}} I have adapted the map on Järve et al. If you see any further things, just inform me. Thanks!–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 10:59, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::Is it based on [https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0960982219307122-gr3.jpg this] chart? IF yes then qpAdm or Cp/NNLS? - [[User:Fylindfotberserk|Fylindfotberserk]] ([[User talk:Fylindfotberserk|talk]]) 11:11, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::{{reply to|user:Fylindfotberserk}} Yes, I took the Cp/NNLS part, as Yamnaya/Srubnaya is generally lacking Eastern components, which is closer to the Cp/NNLS. Do you think using the other is better?-[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 11:20, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::No issues with using CP/NNLS. But I see some discrepancy, especially that the EHG component is being over represented. For example [https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0960982219307122-gr3.jpg here], 
:::::::::::::*'Srubnaya' gets a little bit more than the "0.6" marker on the scale between 0.6 and 0.8, not even close to the mid position of it (which would represent 70%), but around 62.5%. In you map, it is close to 70%. 
:::::::::::::*The Yamnaya one in your map is 75%, but [https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0960982219307122-gr3.jpg here] the ones lablled as ''Yamnaya'' and ''Yamnaya_Kalmykia'' are at 67.5%, the ''Yamnaya_Samara'' and ''Yamnaya_Ukraine'' are in the mid point of the 0.6 and 0.8 scale, ergo - 70%.
:::::::::::::*Tian Shan Saka is around 42.5% EHG [https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0960982219307122-gr3.jpg here], but in your map it is around 55% EHG.
:::::::::::::*Central Saka is 30% EHG, 17.5% Natufian and 57.5% Atlaian. In your map the Natufian is too less and the other values are a bit more. 
:::::::::::::*The ''Scy_Kaz'' is around 32.5% EHG [https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0960982219307122-gr3.jpg here], but ''Kazakhstan Saka'' (id same as ''Scy_Kaz'') is a whooping 55% EHG. 
:::::::::::::*The ''Scythian_East'' is around 25% EHG, 10% Natufian and 65% Altaian [https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0960982219307122-gr3.jpg here], but your map shows around 30% EHG, 5% Natufian. 
:::::::::::::*The ''Scy_Ukr'' is around 50% EHG, 47.5% Natufian and 2.5% Alataian [https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0960982219307122-gr3.jpg here], in you map EHG is close to 70%, Natufian has been severely nerfed and Altains seems a few percents more. There are similar discrepancies in others also. - [[User:Fylindfotberserk|Fylindfotberserk]] ([[User talk:Fylindfotberserk|talk]]) 12:02, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Mmhh, I will look at it again. Thanks for bringing this up. I will use your percentages.–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 12:08, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::{{reply to|user:Fylindfotberserk}} I have adjusted the map accordingly. Regards.–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 12:28, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::Awesome.. Thanks {{p}} - [[User:Fylindfotberserk|Fylindfotberserk]] ([[User talk:Fylindfotberserk|talk]]) 12:55, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::Great work! (maybe it would be better to remove the Yamnaya/Srubnaya window for the sake of clarity, but otherwise it's very good). Best <span style=" 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 13:10, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
{| style="border: 1px solid {{{border|gray}}}; background-color: {{{color|#fdffe7}}};"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | [[Image:History_Barnstar.png|100px]]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Mapmaker's Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Thank you for your great work in transforming complex data into easy to understand maps and graphics! <span style=" 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 13:10, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
|}
:{{reply to|user:पाटलिपुत्र}} Thank you! :) - I have removed the window as per your suggestion. Regards.–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 13:39, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

== Query ==

Regarding the caption in [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Scytho-Siberian_world&diff=prev&oldid=1192272843 this] and similar edits in other pages. The caption reads "combining Sintashta_MLBA, Ganj_Dareh_N, and Shamanka_EN ancestries." referring [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Scythian_genetic_makeup.png#cite_note-1 this image]. There should be some parity. It is obvious that Ganj_Dareh_N or Shamanka_EN like older pops wouldn't have mixed directly with the late bronze age Sintashta MLBA. Those would be more admixed contemporary groups like BMAC etc. Besides, the graph clearly shows various components of Sintashta. I know the writers should have been more clear on the components, especially the smaller ones, but I'd suggest following what the source material says "The three main ancestry components are shown in '''green''', '''red''' and '''violet''' representing ancestry maximized in '''Anatolian farmers''', '''Iranian farmers''', and '''Hunter Gatherers from West Siberia''', respectively". Also in the legends [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Scythian_genetic_makeup.png#cite_note-1 here]. - [[User:Fylindfotberserk|Fylindfotberserk]] ([[User talk:Fylindfotberserk|talk]]) 16:56, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
:Hi {{reply to|user:Fylindfotberserk}}, I have adjusted the captions based on the rather limited description of the paper and also changed the legend (West Siberia N instead of EHG; which are not identical but on the same WHG-ANE cline). Regards–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 18:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

== Slab-Grave culture paternal lineages  ==

Hi @[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]], your edited phrase in Slab_Grave page about paternal lines is misleading. as of now, from eight male ascribed to Slab-Grave community, six male belong to Q haplogroup (1x Q-L330, 5x Q-M120) and two N. the CHN_Xianbei_IA mentioned in Lee et al 2023 is not considered as Slab_Grave. [[User:Chapter930|Chapter930]] ([[User talk:Chapter930|talk]]) 11:40, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
:Hi {{reply to|user:Chapter930}}, you seem to be right, thanks for the information; I have corrected the clades. Regards.–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 13:22, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

== New Map ==

Hi, in my opinion we should not used 'own work' maps [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Relationship_and_legacy_of_the_West_and_East_Eurasian_Core_populations_and_admixture_events.png] used [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Ancient_North_Eurasian&diff=prev&oldid=1217553664 here] since they are based on multiple researches with different admixture percentages hence venturing to [[WP:OR]] territory. - [[User:Fylindfotberserk|Fylindfotberserk]] ([[User talk:Fylindfotberserk|talk]]) 17:25, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

:Hi {{reply to|user:Fylindfotberserk}}, you may be right, that is a bit problematic. I uploaded another version solely using Vallini et al. 2024 and its data, and removed the other population lineages (and admixture models) not discussed in that paper. Thank you! Regards -[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 20:46, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

== Blocked ==

I would be lying if I said that I haven't been suspicious about you evading your block with yet another sock account. I've kept quiet because your editing from this account was all-in-all net positive, in good collaborative spirit and without any drama (although I don't know about LOUT-socking or potential other accounts).

Why don't you try to go for the [[WP:Standard offer]] from your very first account (if you still have access to it)? Sure, it entails a long period of restraint, and maybe other members of this community will have a different perspective (especially when considering your issues in the past). But I think it will be best if you try to actively regain the trust of the community instead of yet another time trying to stealthily get away with it. All the best. [[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]] ([[User talk:Austronesier|talk]]) 21:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{reply to|user:Austronesier}} Thank you very much, sadly my mistakes of the past are still hounting me. You are right, I have to face my past and try to restore and regain the trust of the community. I hope that my edits with this account speak for themself, I really tried to give my best. All the best to you as well. Regards – [[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 06:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
:@[[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]], if you're able to weigh in, this unblock request is at [[WP:AN]] right now and there's been a request for feedback from editors working in the topic areas affected. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 06:24, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
::{{re|Asilvering}} I have been pretty busy these weeks which resulted in a de facto wikibreak, so I am too late now to weigh in in the actual unblock discussion, although I intended to bring up a statement there too.
::Basically, I would have repeated my impression about the "net value" of WU1314's contributions that I have sketched above – especially in comparison to my earlier year-long experiences with them – and which made me encourage them to go for the standard offer. They still have their issues, but these are more a matter of style and occasionally due weight, rather than behavior, POV or even – as was asserted in the unban disussion – pushing of fringe views. I can think of dozens of long-time editor in good standing whose "net value" lies way further down on the quality scale than WU1314's contributions. And of course of many other LTAs who – unlike WU1314 – continue to substantially <u>harm</u> Wikipedia with the addition of bad content (whether it's because of incompetence, twisted POVs or just plain malice).
::I also strongly differ with the view voiced in the unblock/unban discussion that proper identification and individuation of sockmasters doesn't matter. There might be contexts where this is appropriate, but clearly not in an unblock/unban discussion which is about the ''person'', not an amorphous mass of accounts that were lumped together out of sheer lack of scrutiny (I can't say otherwise, given the super DUCK-ish and very different behavioral patterns of the two individuals that got conflated in the WorldCreaterFighter SPI). 
::So my !vote would have been "unblock/unban", probably with a probation period, and of course provided a crystal clear record of no socking during the 6-months period. That's unnegotiable for the community. Now that the issue of socking has come into question in a new SPI report which is a mix of super-lame but also disturbingly convincing evidence, I can only voice my disappointment if this turns out to be correct. My personal (admittedly problematic) decision not to report WU1314 even when I was 99% sure about their identity (mostly based on their range of interest, but also their writing style including characteristic typos and malapropisms) does not mean that I will now advocate for leniency if the very clear commitment that is part of the standard offer indeed has been breached. –[[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]] ([[User talk:Austronesier|talk]]) 10:58, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
{{unblock reviewed |1=Hello Wikipedia community, I want to ask to apply for the [[WP:Standard offer]] and explain my case. I know that apologizing is too late now, but I am really sincerely sorry for my past mistakes. I have learned much, since I have created this account, and tried my best to make good and positive improvements. I tried to make a "silent" clean start. I think if not for my past mistakes, I did it quite good, yet I accept the way it has come ([[user:Ivanvector]] identified me via the original IP range that I started using again, and of course, the range of interests). It is time to face my past and to work to regain the trust of the community. I guess I will have to wait 6 months from now on and then request such a standard offer via mail or the [[WP:UTRS]]. My question in this regard is, can I please request this offer with this account [[user:Wikiuser1314]]? I do not have access to my first account [[user:Satoshi Kondo]], which initially got blocked because (if I remember correctly) I stupidly created another account at that time [[user:일성강]] and by [[user:Kumasojin 熊襲]] simultaneously. I attribute these quite stupid actions to my then quite young age of 15 years old in 2016. After some time, those accounts got correctly blocked as confirmed to each other, but later got merged into the "WorldCreatorFighter" sock-zoo, which now is confirmed to represent (at least) two distinct users (the other being [[user:Vamlos]]). I was however to dump and too impatient at that time to explain or wait and apply for a standard offer. As such, the misery started in a senseless socking-theatre, paired with other rule violations and childish behavior on my side. My blockes were justified and I am ashamed of my past mistakes. Since than, but especially since late 2022, and with this account, I learned a lot, not only here on Wikipedia, but in real life. I improved myself and started to understand and realize my serious mistakes. I became more patient, more cooperative and appreciated to work together with other users. I felt relived here and elsewhere. In short, I got older and learned from my past, but this does not wash away my past mistakes. I do not want to justify my actions, I just want to explain how everything happened and speak about it. In the past, I was too impatient and too fixated on my personal views (regardless of if they were correct/sourced or not) and did aggressively try to implement them here. But I really have changed now, I became more patient, I constructively edit based on citations and also try to give direct quotes for all of my edits to verify them, and I work together with fellow Wikipedians to improve articles (mainly related to archaeogenetic topics). Please take a look at my talk page and edits for that. I have not made any unconstructive or disruptive edits since the creation of this account, and always cooperated and worked together as team with others. I do not want to run away anymore. I know that I may not be able to express myself or my feelings here in a meaningfull way, but I hope the community will at least a bit understand my case. I do not want to get an excuse for my past, but to get a chance to continue my good-faith present/future. It may sound silly, but Wikipedia has become to a special place for me since at least this account. I am really very sorry. Family don't end with blood. I sincerely apologize to everyone here and elsewhere. I will wait the 6 months and follow any instructions I have to. I also offer to '''reveal my real identity to administrators''' and get in contact with them, to explain myself if it is necessary. Thank you. – [[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 06:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |decline = You are '''not eligible''' for the standard offer at this time. Additionally, you have been so massively abusive that you are considered [[WP:CBAN|banned by the community]]. No admin is free to unilaterally lift your block. If you ever become eligible for [[WP:SO]], you'll need to follow [[WP:UNBAN]] for the community to consider lifting your ban. [[User:Yamla|Yamla]] ([[User talk:Yamla|talk]]) 11:49, 23 April 2024 (UTC)}}
:{{reply to|user:Yamla}} thank you for your response. I am aware that I am not eligible now and accept the block/ban. I really want to rehabilitate myself and make a clean cut from my past "pre-Wikiuser1314" mistakes. In this regard, I apologise again to all fellow Wikipedians. I will follow the instructions of [[WP:SO]] and [[WP:UNBAN]]. I will not respond from this moment on until the 6 months have passed. Regards – [[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 13:02, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

:More than a month has past, hope you're well and keeping your commitment. Be steadfast! There's no guarantee that there won't be major objections from some people to reinstating your editing rights, but it's worth waiting for that chance. All the best! –[[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]] ([[User talk:Austronesier|talk]]) 22:29, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

{{unblock reviewed |1=Hello Wikipedia community, after waiting the mandatory six month duration for the [[WP:SO]] and further thinking about my past mistakes, I sincerely ask to apply to the [[WP:UNBAN]] process at the [[WP:AN]]. As explained in my initial request[[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Wikiuser1314&diff=prev&oldid=1220349060]] above in my talk page, I want to face my past and to work to regain the trust of the community. As mentioned in my initial request, I apologise again for my past mistakes and the trouble for others caused by me. I am ready to fully cooperate with the Wikipedia community to regain trust. I am also ready to reveal my real identity to administrators and get in contact with them, to explain myself and for further details if it is necessary. In this regard, I hope to get a chance to prove that I changed and can contribute positively to the Wikipedia project, in accordance with the rules and community decisions. Thank you, sincerely – [[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 07:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC) |decline = Procedural decline only. You can't talk about requests "above in my talk page", as your unban request will be posted to the admin noticeboard. It must be self-contained. Please make a full (but not excessively wordy) unban request that is self-contained and can be copied to the noticeboard. For future reference, no ''immediately obvious''' ban evasion. [[User:Yamla|Yamla]] ([[User talk:Yamla|talk]]) 11:32, 4 November 2024 (UTC)}}

:Thanks {{reply to|user:Yamla}}, below my unban request:

{{unblock reviewed |1=Hello Wikipedia community! At first I want to apologize for my past mistakes. I want to face my past and work to regain the trust of the community. Quite some time has passed, and I fully understand my wrongdoings now. After waiting the mandatory six months since the block of this account, I sincerely ask for a [[WP:UNBAN]] process. – To better understand and summarize my past mistakes, I will try to exlpain how it started: my first account [[user:Satoshi Kondo]] (no access anymore), which initially got blocked because I stupidly created two other accounts at that time [[user:일성강]] and [[user:Kumasojin 熊襲]] simultaneously. I attribute these quite stupid actions to my then quite young age of 15 years old in 2016. After some time, those three accounts got correctly blocked as confirmed to each other, but later got merged into the "WorldCreatorFighter" sock-zoo, which now is confirmed to represent (at least) two distinct users (the other being [[user:Vamlos]]). I was however to dump and too impatient at that time to explain or wait and apply for a standard offer. As such, the misery started, paired with other rule violations and childish behavior on my side, such as being too impatient and too fixated on my personal views (regardless of if they were correct/sourced or not) and did aggressively try to implement them here. – My blockes were justified and I am ashamed of my past mistakes. Since late 2022, and with this account (Wikiuser1314), I learned a lot, not only here on Wikipedia, but also in real life. I improved myself, became more patient, more cooperative and appreciated to work together with other users. In short, I got older and learned from my past. For that, please also take a look at my talk page and edits of this account (Wikiuser1314). – I really want to constructively and positively edit and contribute to the Wikipedia project, together with fellow Wikipedians, and according to the rules. I do not want to run away anymore and hope to get a chance to prove myself. I am ready to fully cooperate with the Wikipedia community to regain trust. I am also ready to reveal my real identity to administrators and get in contact with them, to explain myself and for further details if it is necessary. Thanks. Sincerely – [[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 12:56, 4 November 2024 (UTC) |accept = Per [[Special:GoToComment/c-Queen_of_Hearts-20241126210600-Unban_request_for_Wikiuser131|consensus at AN]]. [[User:Queen of Hearts|<span style="color: darkred;">charlotte</span>]] [[User talk:Queen of Hearts|<sup style="color: darkred;">👸♥</sup>]] 21:07, 26 November 2024 (UTC)}}

Thanks. I'm discussing this with other checkusers and hope to get that sorted out in the next day or few days. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] ([[User talk:Yamla|talk]]) 12:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
:Please list '''all''' of the accounts you've used. A good place to start is [[:Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of WorldCreaterFighter]] and [[:Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of WorldCreaterFighter]]. I'm primarily interested in accounts you've used in the past year that we haven't listed there and primarily interested in accounts you claim do not belong to you. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] ([[User talk:Yamla|talk]]) 12:14, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
::{{Reply to|user:Yamla}} Embarrassing for me, but here are the accounts I once used: [[User:Banjardar]], [[User:Bharat99x2]], [[User:Kumasojin 熊襲]], [[User:Kush3897]], [[User:Ogbuago]], [[User:SapmiSamo]], [[User:WhiteTeaWiki]], [[User:X Aterui x]], [[User:일성강]], [[User:突厥 哈萨克族]], [[User:2001.4bc9.824.e0e4]], [[User:AmurTiger18]], [[User:AntiTuranism1908]], [[User:Ape-huchi]], [[User:Arario]], [[User:Arkiat]], [[User:AsadalEditor]], [[User:AustronesianTaiwan]], [[User:Azazmeh]], [[User:Baikal13]], [[User:BaiulyQz]], [[User:Bayan Khagan]], [[User:Benjamin Samasa]]?, [[User:Benji887]], [[User:ChampaDroid]], [[User:DeEnTranslator]]?, [[User:GanjDareh4]], [[User:GoguryeoHistorian]], [[User:Gyatso1]], [[User:HainanTai]], [[User:Heiwajima20Ip]], [[User:HlaaluTW]], [[User:Hmoob Yao]], [[User:Jäkke34]], [[User:JihoHone]], [[User:KalifFR]]?, [[User:Kang Sung-Tae]], [[User:KinhyaKing]], [[User:KuroZetsu oho]], [[User:KwestaPC]], [[User:Lankaman20]], [[User:LenguaEditar]]?, [[User:Lord Huynh]], [[User:Magyarrider]], [[User:Manasam98]], [[User:Mandari9]], [[User:Masamannamasam]], [[User:MLx22]], [[User:MomotaniSS]], [[User:MomotaniYY]], [[User:Nam Việt 18]], [[User:OghurBushi]], [[User:Quapaw]], [[User:Rimisibaqwa]], [[User:RobertoY20]], [[User:Ruuchuu]], [[User:Sakushain]], [[User:Satoshi Kondo]],  [[User:Saxhleel]], [[User:Shatuo]], [[User:ShiroEmishi]], [[User:Skaalra]], [[User:Takeshima42]], [[User:TAMILinJAPAN]], [[User:TamizhUser]], [[User:Tiberiussan]], [[User:Tomislav22]], [[User:TürkSamurai]], [[User:Turukkaean]], [[User:Whhu22]], [[User:WikiEdit2204]], [[User:Wikiworkbot2.0]], and [[User:YonaguniFan]].
::—
::The others in both lists are unrelated to me. '''(Not me''':[[User:WorldCreaterFighter]], [[User:ConspiracyThinkerPeople]], [[User:Dddcg]], [[User:DerekHistorian]], [[User:DragoniteLeopard]], [[User:Jinjin555]], [[User:KnowledgeAndPeace]], [[User:Lynch Kevin de León]], [[User:TechnichalProblems]], [[User:WorkingCatDog123]], [[User:Adygeheipeople]], [[User:BoxRec9]], [[User:CantoneseMaster]], [[User:ChowChowWong]], [[User:Dan Capoccia]], [[User:Deccodabo]], [[User:DrKoraKora]], [[User:Gailververgailqqq]], [[User:HeichtiSmech]], [[User:InternationalAffairs3]], [[User:LemanderOrange]], [[User:MasterChai]], [[User:Namela123]], [[User:OrenburgNative]], [[User:OttoKhan]], [[User:PeopleTaking11]], [[User:Pinoy123xaaa]], [[User:Robela2]], [[User:Spiritclaymore]], [[User:SushigirlJessice]], [[User:TelephoneBaby]], [[User:ToRespond]], [[User:TurkicDelight]], [[User:Verakhu]], [[User:WayneMacleod1]], and [[User:WuyueDNApeople]]. ''')'''
::—
::Accounts once associated with me, but not blocked/listed here should be these: [[User:Orange172212]], [[User:Noble4c2]], and [[User:Krause96]]. – [[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 16:42, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]], someone's asked about what articles, topic areas, etc you're interested in working in if unblocked. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 06:22, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Copied over. See [[WP:AN#Unban_request_for_Wikiuser1314]]. Thanks for your patience! --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] ([[User talk:Yamla|talk]]) 21:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
:Now that the unban request [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=1259749006 has succeeded] (welcome back), you may want to restore your old user page. [[Special:Contributions/78.28.44.127|78.28.44.127]] ([[User talk:78.28.44.127|talk]]) 01:29, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
::Sorry, meant to do that myself. Now done [[User:Queen of Hearts|<span style="color: darkred;">charlotte</span>]] [[User talk:Queen of Hearts|<sup style="color: darkred;">👸♥</sup>]] 04:47, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to all who commented at my request and to everyone who helped me get back on the right path, facing up with my past. I am happy to be here again and happy to cooperate with other Wikipedia users and the community. Thank you all :)–[[User:Wikiuser1314|Wikiuser1314]] ([[User talk:Wikiuser1314#top|talk]]) 16:03, 27 November 2024 (UTC)