View source for Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive564

{{Administrators' noticeboard navbox all}}

== incivility of user:Jäger ==

- Claiming his edit "was deleted yesterday by a Pole"
[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:World_War_II&diff=313271656&oldid=313243716] 
<br />- I don't know how to call this one, probably a strong candidate for the stupidest edit of year [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:World_War_II&diff=313662688&oldid=313271656]

<br />Jesus, if i think we are trying to build a serious encyclopedia with contributions from users like Jager I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 01:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:And again - user Jäger notified about this thread. Why do I have to keep doing this? [[User:Exxolon|Exxolon]] ([[User talk:Exxolon|talk]]) 01:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:It is good that I am not an admin, as I fear I don't understand what you want the admins to do, [[user:Loosmark]]. The edits seem to have been made with mildly poor grammar, but the points seem to be the editor feels Poland, and some Polish agents, are making edits that are contrary to WP's best interest. This might be better for WQA but even there, other than the fact that the editor is focusing on the motivations of other editors instead of on the content, I am not seeing the problem, yet.[[User:Sinneed| - Sinneed]] ([[User talk:Sinneed|talk]]) 01:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:: Well obviously calling an editor "a Pole" rather than by his name is offensive. I hope you recognise that if we all go around referring to each other as "a Pole, a German, a Chinese, a Spaniard" that would be very ugly. We do have usernames for a reason i think. Also spreading fringe theories about the Present of Poland making some conspirancy against wikipedia is a bit too much. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 01:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

What's perhaps more disturbing is that this editor keeps on putting highly POV Nazi propaganda (the real thing - I don't mean that as a Goodwin's Law violation) into the article on [[Hermann Rauschning]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Rauschning&action=history (article history here)]. In fact, the removal of this stuff is what Jager appears to be complaining about there (on the wrong article talk page) and I'm the "Pole" who removed it.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 02:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:Well, I am just an ordinary editor but my response to the adding unsourced propaganda is:  Then warn the editor when the editor adds the unsourced stuff, and if the editor won't stop after enough warnings, the admins may be able to help.  Earlier, I put in a "focus on the content not the editors" warning on [[User talk:Jäger]], but I am not interested in diving into an edit conflict on the Nazi bits.  I just don't see how the admins can help you now.  The editor was unwise to add the "Pole" bit, it is rude.  Again, if the editor does it again, an interested editor should courteously explain that it isn't acceptable, [[wp:WQA]] is a good place to get uninvovled folk to do that if the involved editors aren't comfortable or feel their warning won't be productive.  I hope that helps.[[User:Sinneed| - Sinneed]] ([[User talk:Sinneed|talk]]) 02:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:: thank you. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 03:50, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Sinneed, but share Radeksz's and Loosmark's general concern over {{userlinks|Jäger}}. The reported edits, as well as his [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Rauschning&diff=313460302&oldid=313109691 adding assertions of fact] sourced only to a 1930 book written by Nazi leader [[Hermann Rauschning]] (correctly reverted by Radeksz per [[WP:V]]) are very troubling. If warnings do not help and this sort of conduct continues, a [[WP:AE]] report under [[WP:DIGWUREN]] with sufficient relevant diffs should result in a substantial sanction. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 20:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:I don't think that I can agree with anyone suggestions to help resolve this. I mean, you are looking at this siutation completeley the wrong way.--[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 23:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::You might want to explain how people should be looking at it, then. On the surface, Sandstein appears to have it covered. &mdash; <b>[[User:HandThatFeeds|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS; color:DarkBlue;cursor:help">The Hand That Feeds You</span>]]:<sup>[[User talk:HandThatFeeds|Bite]]</sup></b> 13:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[User:Ak36962]] and suspected copyvios ==

{{resolved|Articles deleted. [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 13:31, 15 September 2009 (UTC)}}
{{user|Ak36962}} has created many articles about the Russian Orthodox Church. Unfortunately, these look like translated copyvios of the source articles provided in the respective articles. The English isn't perfect, which may mean these were run through a translator. I wouldn't mind if another admin who has a knowledge of Russian would check these out, just to make sure I'm not missing anything here... since a document that's been translated and then copy/pasted is still a copyvio. I figured I'd mention it here rather than there because this appears to be happening quickly and may need to be stopped by deletion if these are CSD G12s. I'd pursue it further myself, but I'm going offline for now... feel free to report to [[WP:CV]] and/or delete the articles in the interim if appropriate. --<span style="font-family:Book Antiqua;">[[User:Kinu|<strong style="color:blue;">Kinu</strong>]] [[User_talk:Kinu|<sup style="color:red;">''t''</sup>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Kinu|<sub style="color:red;">''c''</sub>]]</span> 04:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:I ran a test, taking the reference provided for [[Metropolitan Ambrose]] and running it through Google's translate program. It outputted a [http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=y&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rpsc.ru%2Findex.php%3Fid%3D76&sl=ru&tl=en&history_state0= word-for-word] duplicate of the article. As the reference was provided I assume this was a good faith attempt to build articles, but yes, it definitely looks like a problem. - [[User:Bilby|Bilby]] ([[User talk:Bilby|talk]]) 04:59, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::Sent to CP. Nice catch. Gave the usual nothanks warning, though I am not fussed about others taking extra action. [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 06:53, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

== 23prootie posting disruptive edit summaries and engaging in borderline edit warring ==

{{user|23prootie}} is a long-standing edit warrior and, as demonstrated by [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:23prootie their block log] has been repeatedly blocked for this, most recently with a two week block in July. The key feature of his edit warring is endlessly adding countries to articles such as [[Allies of World War II]], [[Pacific War]] and various other lists of sovereign states, often with racially charged edit summaries. Relevant previous reports include: [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive104#User:23prootie reported by User:Nick-D (Result: 1 month)]] and [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive551#User:23prootie edit warring again]]. Despite these blocks, he's reverted to form in the [[Allies of World War II]] article, and is adding countries and territories to the list, often without providing any citations or properly engaging in the discussion on the article's talk page (consistent with past behavior, he's simply asserting that he's right and is claiming that various Wikipedia articles support his changes). Two of these edits have racially charged edit summaries: [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Allies_of_World_War_II&diff=313948638&oldid=313947677] (summary: 'blue-eyed whites are so annoying, de-racismizing the heading, adding China to the leadership, adding relevant participants Ethiopia, Iran, and Iraq') and  [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Allies_of_World_War_II&diff=313997020&oldid=313995896] (summary: 'removing racist commentary at the top obviously directed at India and the Philippines, clearly this article is trying to impose apartheid against colored peoples.'). Given this editor's long history of disruptive editing and edit warring and the failure of repeated blocks to change their behavior, I would like to suggest that they be subjected to at least a month-long block. [[User:Nick-D|Nick-D]] ([[User talk:Nick-D|talk]]) 08:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Please consult the talk page for [[Talk:Allies of World War II|Allies of World War I]] before making a decision on this issue. As you can see I have been active in discussing my view in a civilized manner and there were times when consensus was achieved. I would also like you to take in consideration this article ([[Declaration by United Nations]]) which is the basis of my edits.--[[User:23prootie|23prootie]] ([[User talk:23prootie|talk]]) 12:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::I'm starting to realize that i'm prbaly going to get blocked again...--[[User:23prootie|23prootie]] ([[User talk:23prootie|talk]]) 12:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::::You should be aware that Wikipedia, by nature of its open editing policy, is not regarded as a reliable source. You will need to find your own resources and references to establish the validity of your edits. I would also comment that racism works both ways, and that inferring that people are editing on a racial basis because of the colour of their skin when it is not the case is racial abuse of itself. I strongly suggest that you discontinue the type of edit summaries exampled above (and then the possibility of being blocked greatly diminishes). [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 12:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::::I didn't thought that it could go both sides. Maybe I'll consider that next time before I speak.--[[User:23prootie|23prootie]] ([[User talk:23prootie|talk]]) 14:11, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

== Another serial copyvio case ==

Could somebody please delete all photographs uploaded recently by {{user|Polibiush}}? They appear to be all copyvios. I found and tagged a couple the other day (see his recent deleted contribs), and another just now ([[:File:Sk-art.jpg]]); he also apparently added copyvio text to articles systematically (see {{al|Bitola}}). [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 10:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

== Crystal ball article? ==

This is probably the wrong place, I'm just coming here for guidance. There is this article called [[Prediction of the United States collapse in 2010‎]]. It is entirely crystal ball, since obviously the predicted events (let alone the year itself) have not happened yet. The notability of its author has been questioned, but that's another story. What I'd like to know is, what would be the Wikipedia policy towards works such as this which are pure speculation? I'm not talking about science fiction, which is obviously based on imagination as any fiction is. This is presented as a real-life ''prediction''. So, should it be nominated for deletion based on violating crystal-ball rules? Or are there other factors to be considered? [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]] 10:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:I don't think it violates [[WP:CRYSTAL]] because it's describing a prediction made by someone else. [[WP:CRYSTAL]] is about articles which introduce speculation about future events rather than describe notable predictions made by others. If the predicted events don't happen that just makes it an inaccurate prediction. But I think there are notability concerns as most references are from Mr Panarin's own website. [[User:Sam Blacketer|Sam Blacketer]] ([[User talk:Sam Blacketer|talk]]) 11:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:: I don't know if the article violates the crystal ball thing but having read it, my feeling is the article is quite ridiculous and should be deleted. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 11:24, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::{{ec}} Among other things, I would suggest a rename to something less inflammatory (e.g., [[Igor Panarin's prediction of the United States collapse in 2010‎]] perhaps - the current title is not some official publication title, and isn't even capitalized in the article lede), or propose an all-out merge back into [[Igor Panarin]].  If someone is considered notable for a web site, does that mean every concept they write about, or every individual ''page'' of their web site, is deserving of an entire in itself?  Bad precedent IMHO.  <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">[[User:Wknight94|<span style="color: #EE5B0D;">Wknight94</span>]] [[User talk:Wknight94|<sup style="color: blue;">talk</sup>]]</span> 11:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::Yeah, the article should probably be nominated for deletion per WP:N and WP:UNDUE and possibly WP:SYN. [[User:Nick-D|Nick-D]] ([[User talk:Nick-D|talk]]) 11:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::[[WP:SYN]] is relevant - almost every comment by Panarin about the United States is assumed to be linked to this theory, which may or may not be reasonable. It might be an idea to invite {{user|Лъчезар}} to comment since he seems to be the main author of the article. [[User:Sam Blacketer|Sam Blacketer]] ([[User talk:Sam Blacketer|talk]]) 11:59, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::::On the article talk page, I pointed to WP:ANI, and since he visits the article nearly every day, I expect he'll weigh in at some point. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]] 13:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::I was about to post on his user talk page, but the message he has there seems to be a dis-invitation to post there. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]] 14:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::I agree with Sam, the article is not making a prediction itself, rather reporting on a notable prediction by someone else. Nick suggests that it could be nominated under WP:N, but it is clearly notable, and WP:UNDUE is not bias to delete an article, rather to improve it. Anyway, I'm not interested in turning WP:AN/I into WP:AFD. Baseball Bugs, you can nominate it if you like, everyone has that right, but I personally would say keep, kind regards, [[User:Spitfire|Spitfire]]<sup>[[User talk:Spitfire|Tally-ho!]]</sup> 11:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Someone has since proposed merging this article to that of its author, Panarin, and that should at least start some discussion. The thing about this article is that it's basically the pet project of its primary editor, and something he passionately believes in. I became aware of it on the Apollo moon hoax page, where he kept talking about how "the truth" of the Apollo moon hoax would become known once this 2010 event happened on exactly July 1 next year. So another way to look at this is that it's an extended POV-push by that one editor - who is also currently engaged in a slow edit war with another user who wants more tags on the article, along with some wording disputes. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]] 13:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
== [[User:Ryulong]] ==

Ryulong is tagging non-vandalism edits as vandalism after being [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ryulong&diff=313093909&oldid=312868945 warned], he reply to the warning by saying [[User talk:Powergate92#Rollback|"Don't you dare start picking out every single rollback I perform as Mythdon had. I mistakenly tagged it as vandalism through the rollback script and changing a name to the wrong spelling could be considered vandalism."]] and then he started a discussion at [[WT:Arbitration/Requests#I can't think of a coherent subject name]], so I looked at his contributions and found [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Kamen_Rider_Decade&diff=prev&oldid=312946132 this revert] of a non-vandalism edit where he put the edit summary "Vandalism" that was not "tagged it as vandalism through the rollback script" and 1 day after I warned Ryulong, I looked at my watchlist and found [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Kamen_Rider_Double&curid=23290986&diff=313158953&oldid=313157748 this revert] of a non-vandalism edit tagged as vandalism, as [[WP:Vandalism#Types of vandalism]] says "Adding or continuing to add external links to non-notable or irrelevant sites (e.g. to advertise one's website) to pages after having been warned is vandalism" as the user was not warned before adding the link the edit was not vandalism. [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 00:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:I do not need Powergate92 '''or anyone''' going through my edits to find what they perceive as improper rollbacks. Mythdon was banned (not from the site, though) for doing the same that Powergate92 has been doing. Powergate92 and Mythdon often agreed with each other in disputes with me elsewhere. I began the discussion at [[WT:RFAR]] to see whether or not Powergate92 should be allowed to do this. Instead he just used it as a forum to list everything he saw that I did wrong.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 00:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::What doe's "Powergate92 and Mythdon often agreed with each other in disputes with me elsewhere." have to do with this? [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 01:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:In my defense, that night those IPs were used for vandalism on other articles and were subsequently blocked (I think). The one spamlink addition I had thought was another one of the vandals (concerted attack) and rolled back accordingly.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 00:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::I don't see any need for administrative action here.  These are not beyond the pale for rollback, which (gasp) does get misused now and then anyway.  Ryulong seems well within the norm.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 00:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Thanks for the info. [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 01:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Although, if Ryulong is willing to revert "vandalism" and warn editors for such behavior, he should also be open to justifying his edits if an editor comes to his talk page believing that their edits were "not vandalism". Time and time again, I have seen Ryulong repeatedly just revert comments on his talk page without so much as a note left on the other party's talk page. And sometimes, he has given the user another warning of a higher level stating that ''the request for clarification on the reason the warning was given.'' on his talk page is also vandalism. Of course, it his talk page and he can remove any comments that he wants but if he is going to leave warnings and similar content on other talk pages, then he should be open to discuss the reasoning behind his edits.--[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 02:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::On another note, civility is also an issue that I believe could be adressed now that this user is being discussed at AN/I. The "don't you dare..." comment shown above and other comments appear to be quite nasty and even if Ryulong is right in a discussion, he should be able to communicate with other editors in a more polite and understanding way. It is somewhat concerning that he self-admittedly does not care that [[WP:POOR|an uncivil environment is a poor environment for people to work in]]. True, Wikipedia Poor isn't strictly a rule in itself, but surely, everyone here (including Ryulong) would want a constructive environment to work in when helping towards the construction on Wikipedia. It would be good to see some of these issues resolved so that we can get to the sources of these problems and so that Ryulong does not have to be reported here again. He has shown that he can be a good editor. But it would be good to see a form of consistency in the promise he has shown here in the past.--[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 02:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::I did not warn any user. I used the rollback function for edits I saw were vandalism. Powergate92 is merely acting the same way Mythdon was to me months ago and this should not continue.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 03:16, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::I am not acting the same way as Mythdon, as Mythdon would ask "How was this vandalism?" about edits that were clearly vandalism. (see [[User talk:Powergate92/Archive#How?|here]]) Unlike Mythdon I  say "This is not vandalism. Please see [[WP:Vandalism]] to see what is and is not vandalism." about edits that were clearly not vandalism. [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 03:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Same damn thing. And stop using those idiotic {{tl|talkback}} templates. I can check this on my own accord.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 03:40, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Well, to be fair Ryulong, maybe if you didn't have a such a habit of reverting your talk page messages, people wouldn't need to use the "idiotic" talkback templates to communicate (or try to) with you. Just a thought.--[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 04:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::The talkback template was being used to notify that he replied to me '''here'''.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 04:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::I see nothing wrong with giving you a heads-up. After all, '''YOU''' are the subject of this thread and it is helpful to '''you''' to know when there has been new content posted in this discussion.--[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 04:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
←Ryulong is a big boy and can check ANI without being prodded by talkback notices. If he doesn't want them on his talk page, that's his business. [[user:Javert|<font style="color:#4682b4">'''Javért'''</font>]] <sup>[[user talk:Javert|<font style="color:#50C878">'''☆'''</font>]]</sup> 04:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:But there is nothing wrong with talkback notices, is there?--[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 04:52, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::The point is not whether something is wrong with them or not, it is that Ryulong does not want them on his talk page. [[user:Javert|<font style="color:#4682b4">'''Javért'''</font>]] <sup>[[user talk:Javert|<font style="color:#50C878">'''☆'''</font>]]</sup> 04:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Which is fair enough, but he doesn't need to communicate the way he does with other editors on ''their''' talk pages in the process. Okay, how about, instead of commenting on this talkback template business, we get back to the reason this thread started, shall we Javert?--[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 05:01, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::I don't have any interest in this thread other than to defend Ryulong's right to do what he wishes with his talk page. I would, however, like to see you lose the condescending attitude. [[user:Javert|<font style="color:#4682b4">'''Javért'''</font>]] <sup>[[user talk:Javert|<font style="color:#50C878">'''☆'''</font>]]</sup> 05:05, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::This discussion is about '''Ryulong's''' attitude and the manner in which he reverts his edits and then leaves nasty messages on other editors' talk pages. '''SEE ABOVE'''. If you read my big two comments above, I see this as a good opportunity to resolve any problems that are arising as a result of (this isn't the first time someone has reported him for this) his method of operation.--[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 05:13, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::I'm hoping that Ryulong, Powergate92 and any other involved parties can come to some sort of calm and civil understanding so that the behavior between Ryulong and Powergate92 or Ryulong and any other editor on here, does not need to continue.--[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 05:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::I'm hoping that I don't get another user who is constantly watching and checking up on my edits [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Ryulong#Mythdon_monitoring_users.27_use_of_Rollback|as Mythdon had]].—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 05:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Have no fear Ryulong. I do not want to become a problem for you. In fact, what I've been asking is a CIVIL understanding to be met here and now so that, as I said before, '''you don't get reported over this issue again''' and that way you can be able to mind your own business without worrying about anyone reporting you to AN/I for the same thing.--[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 05:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I will like to note that Ryulong has reported a user [[#BillTunell and userboxes|below]] for adding  public domain logos to userboxes. [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 04:40, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:What the fuck does this have to do with '''anything''' that you originally brought up?—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 04:44, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::Without attempting to step into the discussion between Ryulong and Powergate, I would say that I object to several things about Ryulong's recent posts regarding me: (i) he unlaterally removed much of my previous userbox work without any prior discussion with me (and without researching the underlying wikipedia policies or trademark/copyright standards, on which he is clearly mistaken), (ii) he listed a complaint against me on this board without the courtesy of a notification, in an attempt to keep me from responding to his complaint, and (iii) he lambasted Powergate on Powergate's user talk page for giving me a courtesy notice of Ryulong's administrative complaint.  I think some reprimand is in order.  [[User:BillTunell|BillTunell]] ([[User talk:BillTunell|talk]]) 18:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::This discussion is called User:Ryulong! I will like to note that when Ryulong removed the public domain logos from the userboxes he said in the edit summary "Addition of copyrighted image". [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 04:52, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::I reverted the addition of copyrighted images. What is the problem with that?—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 04:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::No you reverted the addition of public domain images and said "Addition of copyrighted image". That is the problem! [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 05:07, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::There is no knowledge that ''all'' of the images are in fact public domain. It's the reason I reverted the addition of the images. Just move on.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 05:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::After reading this discussion, I think Ryulong needs to calm down. Swearing isn't needed, period. [[User:RobJ1981|RobJ1981]] ([[User talk:RobJ1981|talk]]) 05:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
I noticed this after seeing [[User_talk:BillTunell#University_user_boxes]] come up on my watchlist.  I don't know about [[WP:CIVIL]] or not, but it seems pretty rude. - [[User:Peregrine Fisher|Peregrine Fisher]] ([[User talk:Peregrine Fisher|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Peregrine_Fisher|contribs]]) 05:16, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::To Ryulong's MERIT, I don't actually think he broke the civility rule in ''that'' particular case. Maybe if the user was new then, [[WP:BITE]] perhaps. But no, I see nothing terribly concerning with this edit at all. --[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 05:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll give a general admonition.  Don't leave talkback notices on an editor when a noticeboard discussion involving them is updated.  It's annoying at best.  Also don't leave them especially following a request to stop doing so. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 05:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Ryulong just [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:BillTunell&diff=314019841&oldid=314017095 removed my comment without my permission on BillTunell ‎talk page], I [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ryulong&diff=305014476&oldid=305007638 warned Ryulong back in July] to not remove other users comments without their permission per [[WP:Talk page guidelines#Others' comments]]. [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 02:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:Ryulong shouldn't be removing other people's comments, especially when he's been warned about it before. [[User:RobJ1981|RobJ1981]] ([[User talk:RobJ1981|talk]]) 02:48, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::Powergate92 should begin minding his own business.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 02:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Perhaps Powergate might be partially at blame here, but that doesn't give you the right to remove comments by other people. [[User:RobJ1981|RobJ1981]] ([[User talk:RobJ1981|talk]]) 09:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

===Let's sort this out ===

Powergate92, all involved parties, and anyone else who intervenes in this thread. All Ryulong wants is for people to stop checking up on his edits all the time. I believe that if Ryulong agrees to be more civil in future when communicating with others, then we shall grant him his wishes. He can be a good editor, we all know that. Just think how much better he could be if people didn't hawk watch his edits.--[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 05:49, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:''if Ryulong agrees to be more civil in future when communicating with others, then we shall grant him his wishes''. Riiiight. This would appear to be comparing apples and oranges: Ryulong sometimes uses the word ''fuck'' on noticeboards, therefore every time he hits rollback, someone should check the edit. Uh huh. ↪<span style="font-family:georgia;">'''[[User talk:Redvers|REDVERS]]''' <small><small><sup><u>[[User:Redvers/Say no to Commons|The internet is for porn]]</u></sup></small></small></span> 08:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

::As I said opening this discussion, there is nothing here requiring administrative action.  There's an encyclopedia needs a-building.  Time to move on, people.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 09:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Indeed. In related news, we apparently have a {{facepalm}} template \o/. -- [[User:Luk|<span style="color:#002BB8;">Luk</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Luk|<span style="color:#6666FF;">talk</span>]]</sup> 13:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::How is that related?--[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 23:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Civility and assume good faith would go a long way in working smoothly with others.  I understand that Ryulong puts in long hours on Wikipedia (edits at 3 a.m.), but a bit of collegiality is required no matter how long the work day. [[User:Racepacket|Racepacket]] ([[User talk:Racepacket|talk]]) 08:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

===My two cents===
"''All Ryulong wants is for people to stop checking up on his edits all the time.''" When three or more edits from one user in the same manner affect dozens of articles, it only behooves people to check his edit history to see what else is being done. In this case, he has decided to tag several images ineligible for copyright as copyrighted images affecting dozens of articles. There seems to be this mistaken notion that unless the text is of a named font with no ornamentation, variation, etc. then it is copyrightable. Nothing could be further from the truth and, as mentioned in various forums related to these images, the US copyright office, Wikipedia policy/guidelines/disclaimers, and US law back this up.

For his actions, I see nothing particularly hostile or inappropriate about them other than the fact I believe them to be in error (it's an honest mistake/disagreement as far as I am concerned). However, I would respectfully request that Ryulong do his best to control his language. Wikipedia may not be censored, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't be polite. Just strike out the comment and move on. [[User:BQZip01|<span style="background-color:maroon; color:white;">'''—&nbsp;''BQZip01''&nbsp;—'''</span>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User_talk:BQZip01|talk]]</sup> 06:53, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:The userbox and copyright issues are unrelated to the original report. I have given you a more indepth discussion of what has happened on your talk page.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 07:03, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::I would agree they are not directly related but they are actions done by yourself in the past 24 hrs. As such, it is not inappropriate to discuss them here, but separate bullets would likely create less confusion. [[User:BQZip01|<span style="background-color:maroon; color:white;">'''—&nbsp;''BQZip01''&nbsp;—'''</span>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User_talk:BQZip01|talk]]</sup> 07:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::He needs to tone down his language for one thing, and for another thing: he should stop removing people's comments. He's done it at least twice now. [[User:RobJ1981|RobJ1981]] ([[User talk:RobJ1981|talk]]) 11:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

===Request closing===
Everyone should know that I am definitely not Ryulong's fan. However, this all seems like a whole bunch of nothing and was nothing from the beginning. The only problem here is that people are still able to drag this on, and the people dragging it on aren't getting along with others dragging it on. Thus, this ANI thread has moved from a non dispute to a normal ANI drama fest. Please, for the love of God (sorry atheists!) someone just close this already. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 14:31, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[Kanye West]] and otherwise inactive accounts ==

=== Long term weird vandalism ===
{{resolved}}
{{user|Motsew}} seems to be a vandalism-only account, but spreads his edits out over long periods of time (with one or two normal edits thrown in to avoid being blocked. At one time, he also moved his own user and talk pages to {{User|Motsar}}, and then moved them back. I'm not sure if that's also his account. He also vandalized warning templates on his own talk page with an IP. That kind of overall behavior is a bit comples for AIV, so reporting here. Latest vandalism was to [[Kanye West]] today, by uploading and linking an abusive photo. [[User:Multixfer|&lt;&gt;Multi-Xfer&lt;&gt;]] ([[User talk:Multixfer|talk]]) 05:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

*Does not seem to be here to contribute productively. Blocked indef as a vandalism-only account. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 06:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
**3 recent edits under that ID after a 2-year absence? Something smells like hosiery. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]] 08:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
***Such as this bit of similar vandalism to [[Kanye West]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Grwell] by another red-link, again after a 2-year absence. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]] 08:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Have a variation on [[Hanlon's Razor]]: Don't attribute to sockpuppetry that which can be explained by lots of people who don't edit Wikipedia, but once created an account, all watching the same television programme.  &#9786; [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 13:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:I merely raise the question, because it's odd that the both of them didn't edit for 2 years and then suddenly turn up in the same article. Which could indicate there's more going on. But we have to be careful not to go too far down that road, and to keep [[WP:DENY]] in mind. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]] 13:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

=== [[Kanye West]] ===

Well this has obviously become quite the BLP posterchild in the last few hours. The article was semi protected for a long time due to prior BLP issues and now this VMA furore. Due to extreme and repeated BLP violations by established editors I have fully protected the article for 3 days until the immediate press/anger dies down. I have left a message on talk explaining and reminding people that BLP applies in talkspace too, but the talk page is seeing a lot of drive by attack edits of its own. Could use some more eyes on it, I am going to bed. [[User:Mfield|Mfield]] ([[User_talk:Mfield|Oi!]]) 05:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:Sorry for the following rant, but honestly, this is bullshit.  I've never edited the article.  Never touched it.  I dropped by for the first time this morning, and I noticed that the sentence that states that Kanye appologized via his blog is unsourced.  Trying to be a good editor, I found a [[reliable source]] we could cite. [http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1621410/20090914/west_kanye.jhtml Kanye West Apologizes To Taylor Swift For VMA Rant].  When I went to edit the article to add the ref tag, the edit button was gone.  WTF?  If other editors can't follow the rules, why should everyone be punished?  I'm an established editor in good standing.  Instead of blanket protection, why don't we just topic ban editors who are unable to abide by policies? [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 12:35, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:: ''Temporary full protection'' is sometimes the easiest and best measure when an article is hitting the firing range.  Nobody is being punished, the article is being saved from drive-by's adding "Kanye is a XXXX" and "Taylor Swift XXXX's YYYY's". ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 13:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Nice.  So, I'm lumped into the same category as those who make "Kanye is a XXXX" edits?  Gee, thanks, a lot.  Perhaps my complaint is beyond the scope of this noticeboard, but something must be wrong with the process if it's too difficulte or time-consuming to ban specific editors who commit such obvious violations of policies. [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 14:07, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: Ugh, no.  ''Everybody'' is affected, it's not a slight against ''you''.  It's obvious that the Kanye article will be a target by many people for at least a day.  Don't get defesive or paranoid about it! ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 14:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

::::When an article is protected to prevent vandalism, good contributors are also prevented from editing. This is unfortunate, but sometimes necessary.  Full protection should generally be used briefly and sparingly.  In the mean time, if you have edits you would like made to improve the article, you can describe the changes on the talk page and then tag them with {{tl|edit protected}} and an uninvolved admin will review the edits and post them if they are appropriate. [[User talk:Thatcher|Thatcher]] 14:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC) 

and cue..... http://www.businesspundit.com/done-something-stupid-wikipedia-can-make-it-even-worse/ [[User:Mfield|Mfield]] ([[User_talk:Mfield|Oi!]]) 03:03, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:aaaah, flagged revisions, where are you when we need you, there could at least be a giant disclaimer at the top of that screen. [[User:Mfield|Mfield]] ([[User_talk:Mfield|Oi!]]) 03:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::And what would be the point of this site if we were to have flagged revisions? :S [[User:CUTKD|<span style="font-family:Stencil Italic;color:#63B8FF">'''C.U.T.K.D'''</span>]] <sup><b>[[User talk:CUTKD|<span style="color:blue;">T</span>]]</b> <nowiki>|</nowiki> <b>[[Special:Contributions/CUTKD|<span style="color:red;">C</span>]]</b></sup> 09:20, 28 M 15:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::The point of this site would be to provide ''valid information'' as well as to prevent or reduce BLP violations that could get wikipedia in trouble someday. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]] 16:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:Why can't we simply topic-ban the editors who are being disruptive rather than punish everyone? [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 16:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::Protecting the article isn't punishment, and the sooner you understand that, the better. →&nbsp;[[User:Roux|<span style="color:#4B0082;font-size:80%;">'''ROUX'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Roux|<span style="color:#4B0082;">'''₪'''</span>]]<small>&nbsp;16:51, 15 September 2009 (UTC)</small>
:::And why can't I get a ham sandwich from the snackbar instead of chicken? Because ''that's just the way it is''. [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 17:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Being deprived of directly editing one article is not "punishment". There are hundreds of thousands of other articles that are wide open for improvement. If there are any important developments about Kanye West, they could be posted on the talk page for consideration and an admin could enter them in the article. And that's not "punishment" either, it's just a little extra work on everyone's part, necessitated by protecting a bio article against vandalism. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]] 17:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

[[WP:PUNISH|A very brief read for ''intelligent'' editors, everywhere]] ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 16:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The article talk page could use a few brave, patient, and diplomatic volunteers to help corral the onslaught of curious newbies.--[[User:Tznkai|Tznkai]] ([[User talk:Tznkai|talk]]) 17:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:How about addressing the substance of my complaint instead of getting hung up on single word? Let me rephrase: Why can't we simply topic-ban the editors who are being disruptive rather than ban everyone from editing the article? [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 17:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::Because topicbans take time, they are routinely ignored with total impunity, and they do nothing to alleviate the concerns of '''our readers''' -- you know, the people we write articles ''for'' -- namely the need for accurate, non-libelous information. →&nbsp;[[User:Roux|<span style="color:#082567;font-size:80%;">'''ROUX'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Roux|<span style="color:#082567;">'''₪'''</span>]]<small>&nbsp;17:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)</small>

(outdent) The substance of this complaint is that the entire article was protected, preventing ''anyone'' from editing it. Reasons were:   
* major vandalism from at least 1 editor (it even made the news, embarassingly)
* major potential for huge backlash from '''many''' registered and unregistered users   
* this means: the entire article was about to become absolutely fucked up and a [[WP:BLP]] nightmare.   
Unfortunately, just like occasionally the 24hr convenience store shuts down for a few hours when they get flooded, or the electricity goes out, sometimes articles get shut down too. Note:   
* individuals do not have a ''right'' to edit Wikipedia   
* articles should not take more time to FIX than they do to become vandalized   
* when the potential exists for major disruption, then nip it in the bud early and PREVENT it.  
There, substance is addressed. Back to one of the 1,000,000+ other articles, and thanks for your good work overall. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 17:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

== BLP problems in Carl Lewis ==

{{Stale|1=JackRodwell101 has stopped restoring the material after this ANI report was made. --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] ([[User talk:Ronz|talk]]) 17:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)}}

{{User|JackRodwell101}} (new editor, SPA) has repeatedly restored [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Carl_Lewis&diff=prev&oldid=313304399] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Carl_Lewis&action=history] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Carl_Lewis&diff=prev&oldid=313890819] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Carl_Lewis&diff=prev&oldid=313916577] information over which there are [[WP:BLP]] concerns, after being warned about [[WP:BLP]].  A request for help has been made at [[Wikipedia:BLPN#Carl_Lewis]], and discussions are taking place on [[Talk:Carl_Lewis#BLP_concerns]].

I've made a few comments on his talk page, and we've had brief discussions on [[User_talk:Ronz#Carl_Lewis]].

I'd like to see JackRodwell101 blocked, in the hope that upon his return he'd finally start explaining himself on the article talk page rather than edit-warring. Minimally, we could use some help from other editors familiar with handling BLP disputes. --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] ([[User talk:Ronz|talk]]) 18:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[Lebanon (film)]] has been on top in 'News'-section on Main page for two days ==

{{Resolved|1=These are not the cabalists you are looking for. [[user talk:Skomorokh|<span style="background:#222222; color:#ffffff; font-family:Goudy Old Style;">&nbsp;Skomorokh&nbsp;</span>]] 15:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)}}
To some this confirms that there are a clique of admins on Wikipedia engaged in promoting all things Israeli. Who the f...cares if one of their films have won anything anywhere? There are +200 nations in the world who wins just about anything anytime. Allthough Wikipedias servers are in the US, its users are distributed worldwide, and includes some very sofisticated and enlightenend individuals who takes offence of the display of such blatant disproportionality. [[User:Michelle Bentley|Michelle Bentley]] ([[User talk:Michelle Bentley|talk]]) 14:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:: And what did they say when you raised it over at the "in the news" section? --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 14:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Thats just crazee talk! [[User:Syrthiss|Syrthiss]] ([[User talk:Syrthiss|talk]]) 14:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: Well it does make a change from "To some this confirms there are a clique of admins on wikipedia engaged in promoting all things Americans. Who the f... cares if [[Ted Kennedy]] died? There are people dying just about anywhere anytime". --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 14:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

: Very nice Michelle.  "Sofisticated" overt racism by "enlightenened" individuals such as yourself. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 15:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:: Well said, Bwilkins. It's not that Michelle would come up with a list of all those Film Festivals taking place 24/7 around the world ("anything anytime"), mind. --[[User:RCS|RCS]] ([[User talk:RCS|talk]]) 15:11, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::Speaking as an ITN contributor, the item was not posted because it was an Israeli film but because it won the prestigious [[Golden Lion]] at the [[66th Venice International Film Festival]].  The item was posted following a discussion at [[WP:ITN/C]] which all items go through.  The Venice Film Festival is listed at [[Wikipedia:Recurring_items_on_ITN|ITN's recurring items]] (alongside the Oscars, Golden Globes and Cannes) because it is one of the most prestigious awards in cinema, this means that it will be posted each year.  Had any of the other 24 films (from 16 or so countries) won then they would have been posted with no regard paid to their nationality.  There has not been many ITN-worthy items over the past two days which is why it remains at the top of the list (In all probability the Norwegian elections will replace later today).  I don't think that blasting the ITN team with allegations of bias, when this item was thoroughly discussed and followed the usual process, is helpful - [[User:Dumelow|Dumelow]] ([[User talk:Dumelow|talk]]) 15:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I noticed that Michelle has made no effort to actually discuss this at [[WP:ITN]]. This is not an incident and does not require administrator attention. ANI is not your sounding board. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 15:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

== Reporting [[User:Boxedor]] ==

{{hatnote|moved from [[WP:AN]] by ''[[user talk:Skomorokh|<span style="background:#222222; color:#ffffff; font-family:Goudy Old Style;">&nbsp;Skomorokh&nbsp;</span>]]'' 18:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)}}
Boxedor is undergoing a major edit war on the article [[Philippines]]. He modifies other users' talk page leaving an offensive note. He leaves defamatory statements on the edit summary of Philippines. Furthermore, he is not responding to any warning to him.--''[[User:JL 09|<span style="color:#0070FF;cursor:move;">JL 09</span>]]''&nbsp;<sup>''[[User talk:JL 09|<sub style="color:#7d7d7d;cursor:help;">q?</sub>]]''</sup><sub>''[[Special:Contributions/JL_09|<sub style="color:#177245;cursor:help;">c</sub>]]''</sub> 14:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:Based on [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:JL_09&diff=prev&oldid=314111345] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Vicenarian&diff=prev&oldid=314112308] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:Boxedor&diff=prev&oldid=314112811] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:23prootie&diff=prev&oldid=314113522], I'd suggest that [[User:Boxedor|Boxedor]] be blocked immediately. This is the sort of behavior I'd expect from a vandal, not a good-faith contributor. [[User:Erik9|Erik9]] ([[User talk:Erik9|talk]]) 14:53, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:Already done [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3ABoxedor], actually :) [[User:Erik9|Erik9]] ([[User talk:Erik9|talk]]) 14:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::Agree with block. [[User:CUTKD|<span style="font-family:Stencil Italic;color:#63B8FF">'''C.U.T.K.D'''</span>]] <sup><b>[[User talk:CUTKD|<span style="color:blue;">T</span>]]</b> <nowiki>|</nowiki> <b>[[Special:Contributions/CUTKD|<span style="color:red;">C</span>]]</b></sup> 09:20, 28 M 14:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Yeah, thanks. He is a suspected sockpouppet too.--''[[User:JL 09|<span style="color:#0070FF;cursor:move;">JL 09</span>]]''&nbsp;<sup>''[[User talk:JL 09|<sub style="color:#7d7d7d;cursor:help;">q?</sub>]]''</sup><sub>''[[Special:Contributions/JL_09|<sub style="color:#177245;cursor:help;">c</sub>]]''</sub> 14:59, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

== User:Otterathome, User:80.171.27.157/80.171.27.157, and User:Mathieas ==

'''Removed [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive562#User:Otterathome, User:80.171.27.157/80.171.27.157, and User:Mathieas|unarchived thread]] that hadn't been touched in 24 hours'''--[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 17:19, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I have unarchived this thread because it is an ongoing issue that remains unresolved. I would appreciate further comments. Thank you. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 16:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

: Unarchiving was unwise.  You're emphasizing a pattern of behaviour: off to [[WP:RFC/U]] with you for that. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 16:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
As the person who was accused of being a wikistalker (FYI not a real word). I am curious as to why this was archived without a resolution. I looked at the WP:RFC/U that Bwilins linked to and it stated that an incident can be archived for three reasons none of which I believe apply in this case. I don't claim to be an expert in wiki policy, so I would appreciate knowing why an unresolved matter was archived. Thanks. [[User:Mathieas|Mathieas]] ([[User talk:Mathieas|talk]]) 18:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
:Everything on this page is archived if nobody has followed up within the past 24 hours. If there are remaining issues, there are other dispute resolution avenues you could follow, like [[WP:Wikiquette alerts]] or [[WP:Requests for comment/User conduct]]. --[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 20:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
::So the way it works is, someone makes an accusation against someone, there is a big long discussion (involving a bunch of unrelated stuff), then it gets shoved in a closet and forgotten without a resolution? Seems like a waste of time. So I guess this means I will not be going to wikijail. [[User:Mathieas|Mathieas]] ([[User talk:Mathieas|talk]]) 06:00, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Excuse me, but what "pattern of behavior" am I emphasizing? I am simply following the rules stated at the top of this page. They state "Threads will be archived automatically after 24 hours of inactivity. If you see a thread that should not be archived yet, please add a comment requesting more discussion, or if it is already archived, remove it from the archive and restore it to this page, preferably with a comment."

That is all I did. I unarchived a thread I believed did not merit being archived yet on account of not being resolved and I added a comment requesting more discussion. 

Additionally, we already tried Wikiquette alerts and I addressed in the original post why I chose to go here instead of RFC/U. See quote: "Hi, an issue about User:Otterathome was recently raised over at WQA, but was closed as stale. I commented on the talk page of the user who was involved in marking it as such, and s/he replied suggesting RfC/U or if it was becoming a serious problem, ANI or ArbComm. After reading the limitations of RfC/U and the fact that the problem is continuing to escalate, I believe the issue needs to be addressed here. Below is the copy of the WQA alert, and at the bottom I have added some recent updates."

So that is why it was addressed here. Thanks. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 05:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

:Again, off to RFC/U please:
:* ''"He has continued on his tendantious editing by nominating another web star"'' (from previous ANI) - "continued" means pattern
:* ''"He has also tried to impose his views on a quality scale rating assessment for Jessica Lee Rose"'' (from previous ANI) shows pattern across articles
: It was already '''established beyond reasonable doubt''' by the community that Wikistalking was not occurring, and therefore immediate action was not required.  You therefore were required to address the '''pattern''' that you were trying to establish if you wished further action to be taken.  Nobody is going to be immediately blocked or banned for AfD'ing articles. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 12:55, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
::Well, remember how I said, since his previous AfD was over, I had no doubt his next one was in the works?
::Have a look at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/LG15: The Last (2nd nomination)|this]].
::Again an LG15-related page, again a page he already tried to kill twice ([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/LG15: The Last|once through AfD]], once through [[Talk:LG15: The Last#Merge|calling for merge]]).
::One month since the keep of the AfD, two weeks since decision not to merge.
::How many LG15-related pages does he have to try to get rid of how many times until a pattern is established?
:::~ Renegade - [[Special:Contributions/213.39.173.221|213.39.173.221]] ([[User talk:213.39.173.221|talk]]) 02:37, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

::In the new AfD he, again, tries to brush off any argument he can't attack on factual grounds by pretending they are invalid and "suggesting" people argue differently. In particular, he is trying to gloss over the fact that the nomination shows multiple signs of being frivolous and in Bad Faith by [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/LG15:_The_Last_%282nd_nomination%29&diff=prev&oldid=313547632 implying commenters are off topic] if they question the validity of the nomination in the first place, rather than just accepting it and going with it.
::He has also directly and unambiguously admitted his nomination is wrong by now, due to the fact that doing exactly what he (supposedly) wanted, improving the sources on the page, messed up the reference numbers in his nomination.
::Instead of fixing his nomination, he went on to direct me [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/LG15:_The_Last_%282nd_nomination%29&diff=313610793&oldid=313602749 to hide my post] in which I point out his argumentation as it stands is wrong. I am not sure how Wikipedia etiquette is usually on this topic, but personally, I think telling a commenter to hide from the discussion that the nomination is factually incorrect and incoherent, in order to ensure its validity isn't put in doubt, is very questionable and not a sign the nomination could stand on its own.

::In addition, his nomination in general, as pointed out in the AfD, shows several subtle signs of bad faith - including, but not limited to, implying that the fact that sources cited don't include information from future (as in time travel) is a sign they're bad, personally deciding which sources are independent 3rd party sources and which aren't, and making unexplained and bogus projections about the future chances of press coverage of the show.
:::~ Renegade - [[Special:Contributions/80.171.53.32|80.171.53.32]] ([[User talk:80.171.53.32|talk]]) 19:38, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't see anywhere that says ANI is not used for establishing patterns of behavior, after all, one of the possible things ANI says it can do is impose a topic ban, which would not be possible without the person establishing a pattern of behavior.  Additionally, I don't see anywhere that says that RFC/U is used for establishing patterns of behavior, muchless that it is the only place to do so. If there is such a page, can you please direct me to it? I am trying to follow the policies as written out on the respective pages, but so far all that has happened is I have been told I "unwisely archived" something that, according to the written policies on this page, was completely within bounds, and told to go to another page to establish my case, when nowhere says that that is the only avenue to do so. Could somebody please clarify this all for me so I can understand where this is coming from? Thanks. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 02:57, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

As you may not have realised, they won't stop complaining about me nominating their articles until something is done. They will defend their lg15-related articles to the end. See my archived comments for further details.--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 20:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I honestly think that this is exactly this kind of attitude that is the problem here. Since when are articles "owned" by one person or group? This is a community wiki. If you see articles as "ours" and "theirs" then you loose focus of the bigger picture which is to have a comprehensive community wiki of the highest possible quality. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 23:06, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

:Honestly, something does need to be done here.  Otter has demonstrated a pretty clear pattern of bad-faith editing, and is very clearly on a crusade to get an entire category of articles deleted.  He's also got a bad habit of throwing around negative labels like 'wikistalker' and 'SPA' when people criticize him.  He also seems to be nominating approximately one webseries related article for deletion per week.  His deletion noms are OVERWHELMINGLY webseries related.  This includes one situation where he nominated an article([[Jackson Davis]], took it to DRV after it was closed as a keep, and then 7 days after the DRV ended, and a mere 16 days after the original Nom, renominated it.  In that nom he repeatedly tried to partially cite WP:NOTAGAIN ("Already nominated isn't a reason see WP:NOTAGAIN", leaving out the bit about how that doesn't apply if it's only been a short time since the last one) as a counter argument when people complained about the short period.  He also partially cited the DRV's decision(That it wouldn't be inappropriate to renom it...he left out the part where they said "later in the year").  

:Then there's his more recent nomination of [[Vincent Caso]].  The edit history. and the nomination text itself are both very telling.  His first edit to the article consists of unilaterally replacing it with a redirect to [[The Guild]][http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Vincent_Caso&diff=312028393&oldid=310780004]  Mathieas reverted, protesting the 'unilateral deletion' in the edit note and also left a note on the talk page(the first and so far only edit to said talk page).  Otter re-reverted to the redir, claiming in the edit summary it wasn't a deletion.  Mathieas reverted again, saying it seemed like it to him.  Otter never commented on the talk page.[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Vincent_Caso&diff=312102892&oldid=312028393] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Vincent_Caso&diff=312171835&oldid=312102892] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Vincent_Caso&diff=312221820&oldid=312171835] A little over 6 hours later, he nominated the article for deletion.  His nomination summary was: "One of my wikistalkers User:Mathieas feels the need to disagree/revert me, so I have to spam another afd. Subject seems to fail WP:BIO/WP:N and seems to be only known for being in The Guild so redirect there." [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Vincent_Caso&oldid=312371745].  The nom itself in the summary flirts with violations of [[WP:UNCIVIL]] and [[WP:POINT]], by calling Mathieas a 'wikistalker' and saying straight out that he only Nom'd because Mathieas contested the unilateral summary redirect.  Not quite 31 hours AFTER nominating it for deletion, he finally got around to adding a Notability template [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Vincent_Caso&diff=312638174&oldid=312590356] and citation needed tags. [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Vincent_Caso&diff=312638885&oldid=312638174]
  
:Even more recently, he for the second time nominated yet another webseries related article, [[LG15: The Last]] for deletion. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/LG15:_The_Last_%282nd_nomination%29]  This time he avoided the article entirely, posting nothing it, simply nominating it.  He also managed to actually write an overall decent summary this time.  Problem is, the nom is rapidly snowballing into a speedy keep per [[WP:NOTAGAIN]] The first nomination [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/LG15:_The_Last] was posted at 22:28, 3 August 2009... by otterathome.  The previous nom, which had only one person vote 'delete', ended 34 days ago.  He renominated it six weeks after his previous nom, and five weeks after it failed.

:He's showing very clear signs of being on a personal crusade.  In doing so, he's violated [[WP:NOTAGAIN]] twice, tried to subvert it by partially quoting it once, and has come dangerously close to violating [[WP:POINT]] and [[WP:UNCIVIL]].  He seems to be literally trying to 'sneak one by'; his conduct on the Caso article is particularly bad in this regard.  Unilaterally replacing the article with a redirect, then edit warring and calling the person contesting it a wikistalker?  Trying to go back after the fact to contest the lack of citations?

:The overall pattern is pretty clear.  Given that the closest he's come to giving anyone a chance to answer him when he contests the notability of a webseries related article was to issue an ultimatum... he simply wants them gone, and isn't interested in any sort of compromise.  This shows he's not thinking about the good of the encyclopedia, but simply about what he personally thinks belongs here.  It isn't just that he's going around nomming a lot of articles in one particular category that have problems, he's deliberately ignored consensus and has made absolutely no attempts to work with anyone or establish consensus.  All he's done is to try to jam what he thinks down everyone else's throat.  Does something need to be done?  Absolutely.  Otter needs to step back and realize that he can't just ignore his fellow editors, he needs to work with them and be both civil and reasonable as he does so. -Graptor [[Special:Contributions/208.102.243.30|208.102.243.30]] ([[User talk:208.102.243.30|talk]]) 04:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


:Otter's response is a perfect example of the problem - he doesn't even acknowledge the possibility of a problem, or display any sign of willingness to talk about it - instead, he immediately jumps to implying fanboyism and dismisses the criticism as invalid. His entire "discussion" process consists of trying to discredit anyone opposing him in a debate.
:There is a ''reason'' even [[WP:NOTAGAIN]] makes the exception of saying ''"If an article is frivolously nominated (or renominated) for deletion, then editors are justified in opposing the renomination. Frivolous renominations may constitute [...] when only a short time has elapsed since the last nomination."''
:There is a ''reason'' pages like [[WP:LETGO]] or [[WP:GETOVERIT]] exist.
:At a certain point in time, the limit is reached and it is time to stop. Even ''if'' it was not questionable that he's basically trying to nominate the entire LG15 franchise - at least the fact that he tried to get rid of Jackson Davis and The Last thrice each in one month should be a reason to at least tell him to settle down a little and leave it alone for a while. Or, as the closing admin of Jackson Davis the 3rd put it: ''"Advise that it should be a lengthy time before a 4th AfD is even considered. "''
::~ Renegade - [[Special:Contributions/80.171.97.160|80.171.97.160]] ([[User talk:80.171.97.160|talk]]) 19:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
*[[User:Milowent]] suggested a topic ban on Otter after all of this; that sounds like a plan. '''[[User:COMPFUNK2|THE AMERICAN METROSEXUAL]]''' 21:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
**By the way, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tubefilter s/he's at it again]. '''[[User:COMPFUNK2|THE AMERICAN METROSEXUAL]]''' 22:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:::It is seeming more and more like that's the only way he's going to stop.  I haven't had a chance to exhaustively check his AFD record(and I honestly don't know how other than spending hours going through his contribs), but of the recent noms of his that I *have* seen, NONE have succeeded.  The best he's managed that I can find is a 'no consensus'.  And if it does end up as a topic ban, the trick then is, what topic?  I've yet to see him actually causing problems in the EDITING of articles, it looks like he's just going around trying to railroad delete them.  And it isn't just lonelygirl articles, either(Caso is from [[The Guild]], for example).  Maybe what's needed isn't so much a topicban on Lonelygirl or even webseries articles, but a topic ban on Nominating on AFD?  Admittedly he does have a knack for finding articles with issues, the problem is that deletion is his first resort rather than his last, in violation of [[WP:FAILN]].  If he bothered to actually try to work with people, he could actually be a huge asset.  But given that the problem is not how he's editing the articles, but instead how he's FAILING to do so... I don't know that just a broad topic ban would really be the best solution.  -Graptor [[Special:Contributions/208.102.243.30|208.102.243.30]] ([[User talk:208.102.243.30|talk]]) 23:13, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::: *Facepalm* Obviously the more narrow ban you'd need to include redirects and merges too, since he's already trying to go that route to get around the deletion opposition.  Can't believe I left that out. -Graptor [[Special:Contributions/208.102.243.30|208.102.243.30]] ([[User talk:208.102.243.30|talk]]) 23:20, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Graptor's point aside, which I actually think makes sense, but I digress, I think that if we go the topic ban route it should not just be for lonelygirl15-related articles, nor even just web series articles, because he has gone after [[Vincent Caso]], who is an actor for another web series, but also [[Tubefilter]], which is not a web series but one of the most prominent and well-respected web industry news sources. Therefore, I'd say a topic ban should cover something like "web content" or a similar term. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 00:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

UPDATE: Otter has now gone after ANOTHER web-based news source, [[GigaOM]], putting up the <nowiki>{{Notability|Web}}</nowiki> tag with the description "will nominate for deletion in a few days, immediate editor attention required" This is absurd. The article is in fine shape, obviously not top-notch, but nothing on it indicates that it needs "immediate editor attention" (there's nothing libelous, etc). His statement that if no editor attention is given within "''days''" shows he clearly does not understand [[WP:DEADLINE]]. This is getting so frustrating. I really think a topic ban is in order here. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 00:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:That right there... 'fix it NAO or I'll nom it for deletion'... from what I've seen that's an IMPROVEMENT, which is really sad.  Still obviously missing the point of [[WP:FAILN]]:  "For articles of unclear notability, deletion should be a last resort."  The problem lies in that he's not seeing the lack of clarity.  He's unilaterally deciding that the topic is not notable, and can't seem to grasp what a 'good faith effort' to determine that entails.  Though he's come down a lot from 'You have 30 days to fix it or I'll have it deleted' or whatever it was... Informing people that it has issues and inviting them to fix it, good.  Hanging a deadline and an ultimatum over their heads while he does it, bad.  Basically he's got it backwards.  The idea is not to rid wikipedia of all articles that do not currently meet notability standards, it's to keep what CAN and get rid of or refactor what CANNOT.  Obscure topics, Recently arisen topics, and recently created articles are all likely to have issues establishing notability; this does NOT equate to their topics not being notable.  It can simply mean that for one reason or another the sources that ARE available haven't been included; that the article merely needs some work done to it to clean it up, rather than simply being removed only to be recreated later.  Telling the difference is where Otter seems to have issues.  He jumps to a conclusion too quickly, and in a very confrontational manner that puts people off. -Graptor [[Special:Contributions/208.102.243.30|208.102.243.30]] ([[User talk:208.102.243.30|talk]]) 00:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I think the biggest problem with the rampant and persistent nominations within a specific area is that it ties up editors fighting afd's that otherwise could be fixing, enhancing, or creating new articles within that area. I assume most editors have one or two areas of interest that they feel most comfortable editing within, if those editors are constantly dealing with afd discussions and ANI conflicts then the project suffers. Also, at this point given this particular users behavior any article he submits for afd is going to be met with suspicion and contribute to negativity among the editors. [[User:Mathieas|Mathieas]] ([[User talk:Mathieas|talk]]) 01:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::A topic ban would clearly be in order unless the individual in question is prepared to use some common sense in the application of Wikipedia policies. The fact that they tagged:  GigaOM for WP:N clearly shows that they are not making a good faith effort to even understand the articles they are tagging. This implies that the individual is working on an agenda that is not in the best interest of Wikipedia.  This is not the first time things like this have happened and clearly it will not be the last unless some action is taken.--[[User:Modelmotion|Modelmotion]] ([[User talk:Modelmotion|talk]]) 01:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

'''CRY FOR HELP TO ADMINS''':  You really need to intervene into Otterathome's behavior asap; I know that wiki debates are like schoolyard drama, but its no fun to even play (edit and contribute to wikipedia) at this point.  I recommend a topic ban for webseries related articles, as at least two other editors have suggested at this point.--[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] ([[User talk:Milowent|talk]]) 01:24, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:I still tend to think that if he does get topic banned it'd be preferable for it to be narrow.  The single biggest problem atm is that he appears to be really, really terrible about passing judgment on the notability of articles and then AFDing them.  Banning him from EDITING topics that he's NOT editing seems a bit outside the scope of the problem.  Most of the articles he's nominated did or do have issues.  He's simply deciding on his own that the issue is the topic not being notable without any regard for the possibility that it's just a problem with the current article's sourcing that can be fixed.  As a result he's putting up a LOT of AFDs, and from what I've seen almost NONE of them are successful.  This suggests a topic ban on NOMINATING articles for deletion, redirect, or merging only, as that's all he seems to have major issues with. -Graptor [[Special:Contributions/208.102.243.30|208.102.243.30]] ([[User talk:208.102.243.30|talk]]) 01:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

===Arbitrary OtterBreak One===
Hmm, let's see:
*All web series news sources
*All LG15-related info
*All possible fragments of other web shows.
...when Otter is done, everything left of the phenomenon web series will be the lonelygirl15 page and a page stating <nowiki>"After [[lonelygirl15]] was successful, numerous other web shows and news sources popped up. {{stub}}"</nowiki>.<br>
But clearly there is no bad faith involved. I mean, seriously...he tries to kill web series content, can't because it has references, so next he nominates the sources of the references for deletion, so he can discount the references on the original pages as being from non-notable sources.<br>
That's ''obviously'' coincidental and not the intent ''at all''. *rolleyes*
:~ Renegade - [[Special:Contributions/80.171.97.160|80.171.97.160]] ([[User talk:80.171.97.160|talk]]) 01:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:Edit: Since it seems like we are unable to textually express the extent of Otter's actions against LG15 in particular, and web series in general, I have invested the time to visualize the whole thing to allow administrators and uninvolved community members a quick overview of what has happened in the past one and a half months.
:As you can see, Otter has been steadily involved in actions with the goal to remove web series related content from Wikipedia for the past 44 days, and only on ''four days'' in the past one and a half months he was ''not'' trying to kill something related to LG15 (during the Vincent Caso AfD).
:In addition, of course, the The Last and Jackson Davis rows beautifully display Otter's [[WP:OVERZEALOUS|overzealous]] behavior.
:I hope this table helps to explain why exactly we are so fed up with Otterathome. This is ''not'' a matter of us being upset a series we like was nominated, this is a matter of Otter broadly and targetedly trying to erase LG15 and web series in general from Wikipedia.

{{hat}}
{|
|+'''Otter vs. Web Entertainment, August 3rd, 2009 - September 15th, 2009'''
|-
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Katherine Pawlak|[LG15]&nbsp;Katherine&nbsp;Pawlak]]
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Katherine Pawlak|[LG15]&nbsp;Katherine&nbsp;Pawlak]]
|-
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Giles Alderson|[LG15] Giles Alderson]]
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Giles Alderson|[LG15] Giles Alderson]]
|-
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lucinda Rhodes-Flaherty|[LG15]&nbsp;Lucinda&nbsp;Rhodes-Flaherty]]
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lucinda Rhodes-Flaherty|[LG15]&nbsp;Lucinda&nbsp;Rhodes-Flaherty]]
|-
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jackson Davis (2nd nomination)|[LG15]]] [[Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 August 14|Jackson]] [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jackson Davis (3rd nomination)|Davis]]
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|
|style="background-color: #FF8888;"|DRV
|style="background-color: #FF8888;"|DRV
|style="background-color: #FF8888;"|DRV
|style="background-color: #FF8888;"|DRV
|style="background-color: #FF8888;"|DRV
|style="background-color: #FF8888;"|DRV
|style="background-color: #FF8888;"|DRV
|style="background-color: #FF8888;"|DRV
|
|
|
|
|
|
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jackson Davis (2nd nomination)|[LG15]]] [[Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 August 14|Jackson]] [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jackson Davis (3rd nomination)|Davis]]
|-
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Becki Kregoski|[LG15] Becki Kregoski]]
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Becki Kregoski|[LG15] Becki Kregoski]]
|-
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/LG15: The Last|[LG15]]] [[Talk:LG15: The Last#Merge|LG15:]] [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/LG15: The Last (2nd nomination)|The Last]]
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|style="background-color: #FFBBBB;"|Merge-Attempt
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FF8888;"|DRV
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/LG15: The Last|[LG15]]] [[Talk:LG15: The Last#Merge|LG15:]] [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/LG15: The Last (2nd nomination)|The]] [[Wikipedia:Deletion_review#LG15: The_Last|Last]]
|-
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mesh Flinders|[LG15] Mesh Flinders]]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mesh Flinders|[LG15] Mesh Flinders]]
|-
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vincent Caso|[The&nbsp;Guild]&nbsp;Vincent&nbsp;Caso]]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|
|
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vincent Caso|[The&nbsp;Guild]&nbsp;Vincent&nbsp;Caso]]
|-
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tubefilter|[News] Tubefilter]]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|style="background-color: #FFAAAA;"|AfD
|ongoing
|[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tubefilter|[News] Tubefilter]]
|-
|[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=GigaOM&diff=313969322&oldid=307255767 &#91;News-Owner&#93; GigaOM]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|style="background-color: #FFCCCC;"|Threat to nominate
|style="background-color: #FFCCCC;"|Threat to nominate
|ongoing
|[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=GigaOM&diff=313969322&oldid=307255767 &#91;News-Owner&#93; GigaOM]
|-
|
|03.08.09
|04.08.09
|05.08.09
|06.08.09
|07.08.09
|08.08.09
|09.08.09
|10.08.09
|11.08.09
|12.08.09
|13.08.09
|14.08.09
|15.08.09
|16.08.09
|17.08.09
|18.08.09
|19.08.09
|20.08.09
|21.08.09
|22.08.09
|23.08.09
|24.08.09
|25.08.09
|26.08.09
|27.08.09
|28.08.09
|29.08.09
|30.08.09
|31.08.09
|01.09.09
|02.09.09
|03.09.09
|04.09.09
|05.09.09
|06.09.09
|07.09.09
|08.09.09
|09.09.09
|10.09.09
|11.09.09
|12.09.09
|13.09.09
|14.09.09
|15.09.09
|
|
|}

{{hab}}
*Way too much content for AN/I. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 03:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:~ Renegade - [[Special:Contributions/80.171.97.160|80.171.97.160]] ([[User talk:80.171.97.160|talk]]) 03:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:That's fairly impressive, and goes back further than when I'd come in.  I wish you'd indicated the results somehow in the chart though.  For those who don't want to bother clicking: Katherine Pawlak was deleted with only three comments.  Giles Anderson was deleted with one comment, after running for 12 days when it was relisted after six days due to no comments.  Lucinda Rhodes-Flaherty was relisted twice, running for 13 days before it got a comment that prompted otter to withdraw the nom, because "The article was written in a way that it read like she only had minor roles."  The comment was basically that she'd been in a LOT of things and had some legit sourcing.  It wasn't closed for another 5 days after otter requested it.  Jackson Davis ended as no consensus, went to DRV and came back no consensus with no prejudice against relisting.  Re-AFD came back keep per [[WP:NOTAGAIN]].  Becki Kregowski came back delete with four comments, including one in favor of deletion from Milowent!  The Last: 1st AFD came back keep, the merge discussion is short and not very productive, and includes this diff: [[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ALG15%3A_The_Last&diff=307784209&oldid=307738885]], where otter absolutely gives an ultimatum.  No one else wanted to merge it, though it being open for three weeks mostly seems to be because nobody closed it and for no other real reason.  2nd AFD(apparently he meant his ultimatum) currently has no comments in favor of deletion that are not from Otter.  Mesh Flinders was snow-closed after five days due to an overwhelming number of keeps and no deletes.  Caso got a large discussion, but was kept after the deletes were fair drowned(and I included diffs of what he did before and after above, they're pretty bad).  Tubefilter currently has three keeps and no deletes.  GigaOM obviously hasn't progressed to anything.

:So that's... 3 deletes, two with three comments or less(one relisted once), one with four comments; 1 withdrawn(after two relists); 1 no-consensus AFD; 1 no-consensus DRV; 4 total keeps, one per [[WP:NOTAGAIN]], one [[WP:SNOW]]-closed, and two straight keeps(both with LOTS of comments); and 1 failed merge, with no one else in favor.  Also one re-AFD that looks to likely be ending as a keep and one that is trending keep but is still early in.  Note that the DRV and Merge immediately followed the no-consensus and one of the keeps, and that both of those have been relisted on AFD since.  One was kept, the other is the ongoing heavily trending keep.  -Graptor [[Special:Contributions/208.102.243.30|208.102.243.30]] ([[User talk:208.102.243.30|talk]]) 04:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::* He has also attempted to AfD or placed a WP:N tag on the following web series related articles: Melanie Merkosky, My Alibi, Tara Rushton  [[User:Billbowery|Billbowery]] ([[User talk:Billbowery|talk]]) 03:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::*Okay, I don't get it; do any admins even care about this? It seems like no one is noticing the noticeboard (pun intended). How much more proof is needed for something to be done about Otter? '''[[User:COMPFUNK2|THE AMERICAN METROSEXUAL]]''' 06:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Thank you, Billbowery, I just took the ones from the recent month I could quickly spot...I had no doubt there were more :)
::Graptor: Listing them with outcome would require putting context in there, which would make the graph that much larger. Because, for example, even though you quickly list "three deletes", "1 no-consensus AFD" and "1 no-consensus DRV", you are not putting it into perspective. If you take a closer look, you'll see that all the deletes were at the beginning, with little participation, then came the no-consensus ones with more participation, and now, for a ''month'', the outcome has always been keep, because everyone is aware of what is going on and is keeping a close look on the LG15-related pages. The outcomes are not related to notability, the outcomes are related to how many people are aware of what's going on and how many AfDs happen at the same time.
::If you look at the volumes on the graph, you'll see that, at all times, we were able to save at least three of the nominated pages. As soon as the volume of nominations dropped below three at a time, we were able to make convincing arguments in all running discussions. It's a simple question of notifying interested editors and volume of work. We can't argue in six AfDs at the same time. And giving all that context, number of involved editors, spread over which AfDs, etc., etc. to give an accurate representation of the background of these outcomes would've exploded the graph. (It would also be interesting to see how many involved editors Otter actually notified as suggested in [[WP:AFD]], but I'm not expecting many data points there.)
::So yes. Short version: I didn't add the outcomes because simply putting them in there would imply all AfDs had an equal chance and equal participation, and some pages were just not notable enough. That is false. They were likely all notable enough, the workload was just too high to save & improve six articles at the same time.
:::~ Renegade - [[Special:Contributions/80.171.128.47|80.171.128.47]] ([[User talk:80.171.128.47|talk]]) 17:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::<small>FYI, The Last has been speedy kept by now, I updated that row in the graph.</small>
::<small>UPDATE: Nevermind, Otter [[Wikipedia:Deletion_review#LG15:_The_Last|put it up for deletion review]]</small>

===Arbitrary OtterBreak Two===

To see any wrong doing, you have to first assume bad faith, and as admins haven't become admins by assuming bad faith, they see nothing wrong. Nominating similar articles for deletion isn't a crime. Why don't you try [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct]]?--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 11:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:I'm pretty sure if the admins do have an opinion on this, they'll state it themselves. No need for you to act as their medium.
:Even ''if'' your biased, disruptive abuse of the process was not a "crime", as you put it, your constant violations of [[WP:CIVIL]], [[WP:AGF]] and [[WP:NEWBIES]] are.
::~ Renegade - [[Special:Contributions/80.171.128.47|80.171.128.47]] ([[User talk:80.171.128.47|talk]]) 17:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:You keep repeating [[WP:CIVIL]] + [[WP:AGF]] like a broken record, yet none of the times have you bring up the two things you ever quote me being uncivil or assuming bad faith. Hell if you can find some uncivil quotes within the last 2 months I'll request to be blocked myself. I'm not actually convinced you know what [[WP:CIVIL]] + [[WP:AGF]] mean, but I'll give you benefit of the doubt.--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 18:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to bring this forth as further evidence that Otter is not making a good faith effort to follow [[WP:FAILN]]. On [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tubefilter]], [[User:Billbowery]] said "But, in any case, you didn't even put a ''notability'' tag on the page or make a good faith effort to give editors a chance to improve the article.", Otterathome replied "it seems likely that if there was any significant coverage, it would have already been added to the article" [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tubefilter&diff=314083788&oldid=314021532] That shows his nomination to that article was in bad faith, as per [[WP:FAILN]], which states: Remember that all Wikipedia articles are not a final draft, and an article can be notable if such sources exist ''even if they have not been added at present''...If it is likely that significant coverage in independent sources can be found for a topic, ''deletion due to lack of notability is inappropriate unless active effort has been made to find these sources''." [emphasis added] Thanks. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 15:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

*'''Perhaps if you lot wouldn't post walls of text, people would bother paying attention to this mess.''' →&nbsp;[[User:Roux|<span style="color:#355E3B;font-size:80%;">'''ROUX'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Roux|<span style="color:#355E3B;">'''₪'''</span>]]<small>&nbsp;15:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)</small>
:*They need their walls of text to make you think there's a huge problem.--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 16:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::*To Otter: Once again, you insult the people bringing forth this ANI instead of actually addressing why you think it is invalid. 
::*To Roux: Yes, I understand that it is long and probably intimidating to read, but at least on my part, and I would extend this assumption to others, the people bringing forth this claim are trying to show proof for our claims, and since this is such a long and complicated situation, long and complicated posts are needed. I am sure someone can put together a bullet-pointed list of the claims made here, but I'm not sure if we could do that and still maintain all of the proof accumulated here. I am sure myself or another use can put forth the effort though if you feel it is necessary? Thanks. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 17:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::*Honestly, I don't care. I've seen you forumshopping this crap around for at least, what, 2 months now? It certainly feels like it's been that long. And one thing I have learned about Wikipedia, particularly AN/I: the more that the complainants in a given situation to resort to long and dense walls of text that are, let's be blunt here, long on hyperbole and ''extremely'' short on diffs and concrete proof, the less likely it is that there is any actual problem beyond "Waaah he annoyed me once waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah." The relationship is pretty much 1:1. So. If you want any admins--I'm not one--to pay any attention to this, I suggest you ''do'' boil it down, and include diffs of the behaviour. All of this nonsense is getting nowhere. →&nbsp;[[User:Roux|<span style="color:#4B0082;font-size:80%;">'''ROUX'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Roux|<span style="color:#4B0082;">'''₪'''</span>]]<small>&nbsp;17:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)</small>
::::*Okay, well it's fairly obvious then that you haven't read the post in its entirety, not only because you claim it's too long, but because you claim it doesn't include many diffs. In fact, the original post had a large number of diffs, and each new claim has included new diffs to back it up. So no, this does not come down to "Waaah he annoyed me once waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah." and I would appreciate if you wouldn't just assume that is the case. Also, it is not "forumshopping" to take a situation from a lower level of dispute resolution to a higher level. Anyway, I'll try to boil it down, but since you "don't care" I'm sure you won't bother reading it anyway :) --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 17:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:Roux, we are elaborating this much because, so far, we got no reactions from anyone, and were left to assume that we simply did not present the issue well enough. To assume there is little content in our text just because there's lots of it is fallacious at the least.
:I will gladly answer your questions if you have any?
::~ Renegade - [[Special:Contributions/80.171.128.47|80.171.128.47]] ([[User talk:80.171.128.47|talk]]) 17:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, as an Admin I have to ask this: in 25 words or less, what exactly is the problem? Starting way back at the beginning, it appears that someone was accused of wikistalking someone, but then that accusation is modified to a complaint that Otterathome is nominating too many articles for AfD. If that ''is'' the problem, I am unclear about what special actions you want to be done about it. If these articles are notable, they will be kept; if he immediately renominates them, Otterathome will face restrictions for disruption. If the subjects are notable but the articles are being deleted, then the problem is something the average Admin can't fix. (And I'm not sure I have the answer to that problem.) -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 18:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:For whatever reason someone decided to merge which I believe are two separate issues: otterathome's allegations against me and the allegations against him. I had inquired about the two issues being separated after they were merged but that obviously did not happen. I had hoped for a definitive answer from an admin about the allegations made against me; unfortunately, they seem to have gotten lost in the flurry. [[User:Mathieas|Mathieas]] ([[User talk:Mathieas|talk]]) 21:31, 15 September 2009 (UTC) 
:[[Wikipedia:Tendentious editing|Tendentious editing]], repeatedly nominating same genre articles for deletion w/o checking [[WP:FAILN]], after they're kept, noming for merge/DrV/more AfDs, failing [[WP:CIVIL]], etc. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 18:53, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:In the last 44 days, on 40 days Otter had processes running with the goal to remove LG15-related pages from Wikipedia, at one point with 6 AFDs at the same time. He tried get rid of [[Jackson Davis]] thrice within one month (AFD, DRV, AFD) and [[LG15: The Last]] 4 times since August 3rd (AFD, Merge, AFD, DRV).
:In the deletion discussions, he frequently violates [[WP:CIVIL]], [[WP:AGF]], [[WP:NEWBIES]] and shows no sign of interest in cooperation or any other solution but deletion.
:I am sorry this is longer than 25 words, but the data mounts as time goes on :S
::~ Renegade - [[Special:Contributions/80.171.128.47|80.171.128.47]] ([[User talk:80.171.128.47|talk]]) 18:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::The reason it looks like a wikistalking complaint that evolved is because there were actually two seperate, though related, complaints that someone merged into the same thread.  Otter complained that he was being wikistalked and later Zoey escalated the stale WQA to here.  A few days later someone merged the two into a single thread, confusing the issue further.

::The problem with otter, in short, is that he's AFDing a LOT of articles for notability without making a good faith effort to follow [[WP:FAILN]].

::In more detail: Instead of trying to establish if the problem with the article is notability or lack of citations; he's firing from the hip with an immediate AFD.  No templates, no fact tags, no posts on talk pages.  These AFDs are mostly in the area of a webseries called [[Lonelygirl15]] but have branched out to [[The Guild]] and a couple web based news sources since.  Two of the articles in Question he has made no less than 3 attempts each in the last 40 days to have them disposed of(2 AFDs each, with a merge or DRV inbetween).  In addition, the majority of these AFDs '''are not successful.'''  He has displayed a serious lack of judgment in submitting noms to AFD, and a serious lack of basic good-faith efforts to reach consensus with the other editors.  He's also come dangerously close(at best) to violating [[WP:CIVIL]] and [[WP:POINT]] in the process.

::The overall appearance, given the focus on one series in particular and web-related subjects in general, is that he's trying to use AFD as a club to rid the encyclopedia of things he doesn't like, regardless of consensus.  That may or may not be the case, but his methods are unconscionable.  There are well over a dozen links above demonstrating all of this. -Graptor [[Special:Contributions/208.102.243.30|208.102.243.30]] ([[User talk:208.102.243.30|talk]]) 20:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::Whoops, wrong before I posted apparently.  Otter has now initiated his '''fourth attempt''' to get rid of [[LG15: The Last]].  After the second AFD was speedily kept, he's now taken it to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review#LG15:_The_Last Deletion Review] -Graptor [[Special:Contributions/208.102.243.30|208.102.243.30]] ([[User talk:208.102.243.30|talk]]) 21:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::: Graptor, I think you made a mistake in your assertions: [[The Guild]] was last nominated for deletion back in 18 March 2008. As for the two articles mentioned the most here -- [[LG15: The Last]] & [[Jackson Davis]] -- from the relevant comments, it's clear that Otterathome is skating on thin ice, & nominating either for deletion in the foreseeable future might just get him a vacation from Wikipedia. In other words, it appears as if the matter is being handled. I'd suggest to Otterathome that he focus on another part of Wikipedia, preferably somewhere unrelated to AfD. So let's allow this WP:AN/I thread to end & go back to working on content. [plug]Anyone else think that [[Nechisar National Park]] might be worth submitting to the GA process?[/plug] -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 04:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::::As I posted up above, with something like seven diffs, he nominated an ACTOR from The Guild, [[Vincent Caso]], and the manner he did so is one of the best illustrations of the problems with his tactics...thus the diffs.  The 'archived' chart that Renegade put together up above is the quickest and easiest way to see just what exactly Otter's been doing, except it doesn't say what the result of each thing in it was...the bit I put in right after it does though, after I went through and clicked every single link in the chart.  I feel like I'm going in circles here, repeating the same things over and over because people aren't listening... -Graptor [[Special:Contributions/208.102.243.30|208.102.243.30]] ([[User talk:208.102.243.30|talk]]) 09:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::::*Ya know what...after some thought, I'm done.  Everything I've seen here so far is utterly appalling, and I find that the tentative reversal of my opinion of the wikipedia community(Caused by discovering that most of my issues of four years ago have been addressed very well in new policies and changes of procedure) has been annihilated.  Thus all point in my involvement here is lost.  I find that my opinion from four years ago that the community here is not one I can condone joining is reaffirmed.

:::::So far, I have seen: nearly the exact conduct that disgusted me so four years ago exhibited by Otter, in Violation of numerous policies, with attempts to cover it by wikilawyering.  I've seen the Lonelygirl supporters 'borrowing' my arguments and trying to use them to support attempts to get Otter topic-banned from all Lonelygirl articles, despite the fact I've seen no evidence of disruptive editing by Otter in said articles(He saved that for [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Vincent_Caso&diff=312028393&oldid=310780004 Vincent] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Vincent_Caso&diff=312171835&oldid=312102892 Caso] apparently).  I've seen the WQA get ignored and go stale.  I've seen an admin confuse and hobble the discussion here by [[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=312782401&oldid=312782165 merging]] two threads together as being "one incident" (Otter complains that a couple lonelygirl supporters are following him, a different lonelygirl supporter escalates the ignored WQA about Otter's disruptive AFDing), literally tacking the second onto the end of the first, making it very hard to follow.  I've seen another admin dismiss the entire thing with, essentially, [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&diff=314125848&oldid=314124562 TL;DR], (I've read every single thing in this thread and on every single one of the linked AFDs.  The idea that policy is being ignored because people can't be bothered to read ANY of the many desperate attempts to get someone to look at the evidence frankly offends me.  Deeply.)  In short, I've seen the very policies that gave me hope subverted.  I've had every reason for my decision to not register here reaffirmed.

:::::The sum total of my knowledge of Lonelygirl is this, in approximate chronological order: 1.) It's a webseries.  2.) The very title grates on me sufficiently to make me want to avoid it as much as possible.  3.) It's given as an example in approximately every other article on TvTropes.  4.) When crawling around TvTropes, 2 and 3 result in the recurring thought of 'Oh God, Lonelygirl AGAIN?' followed by either rapid scrolling or a tab close.

:::::Prior to stumbling upon this epic failure, I'd never heard of ANY of the subjects that Otter AFD'd, and still don't know anything about most of them.  And frankly, don't care if any of the articles in question stay or go.  I saw a problem, but further saw an opportunity for my hopes about how the community here had improved over the last four years to be ardently confirmed.  They have not been.  I was hoping to keep this mess from ending up at ArbComm, but if what I've seen thus far is typical, those efforts were in vain.  It's likely going to end up there, for no better reason than that nobody could be bothered to enforce policy.  The policies may as well not exist if they are not enforced.

:::::This will likely be my last edit to wikipedia for several years.  Maybe in 2013 it'll be better.  We'll see.  -Graptor [[Special:Contributions/208.102.243.30|208.102.243.30]] ([[User talk:208.102.243.30|talk]]) 12:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::: Well, I'm sorry you feel that way, Graptor, but if you're still reading this let me explain a simple fact of Wikipedia to you: we're all volunteers here, all of us donating our spare time to improve Wikipedia. And I seriously doubt that the first thought of anyone with a spare hour or two to donate is to come to WP:AN or WP:AN/I & spend it reading through a thread of allegations & counter-allegations, & all of the related article histories & talk pages, hoping to find some problem to resolve. (After reading some threads here, I wonder if the proper solution isn't simply banning all parties in a specific dispute for a week. It might not solve the dispute, but the rest of us don't have to read about it.) So if you can't be bothered to lay out your case succinctly why you need an Admin to intervene (usually because the dispute resolution process can't handle the matter, or can't handle it in a timely manner), it's going to be ignored. Be clear, be organized, & be persuasive & Admins will help you. Otherwise, we can't distinguish real problems needing attention from the usual squabbling in which everyone is whining like 6-year-olds over who hit whom first. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 22:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::: I was trying deliberately not to edit any more, but I just can't resist answering this.  That's a great sentiment and all, but there's a gigantic hole in it that undermines everything wikipedia is supposed to be.  It's not run by consensus if what gets enforced and what doesn't, and when, is determined by what the admins are 'willing to get involved with'.  On an individual basis it's perfectly understandable and not a problem.  On a COLLECTIVE basis it's a huge, fundamental problem with the system.  If actual problems get completely IGNORED because six different people all try to collectively present an argument and a few(or most, or all) of them don't do it very well, then there is a problem.  Having to present your arguments in a particular way is why we have lawyers in the real world; 90% of the population is simply not capable of effectively presenting their arguments in court(or anywhere else, frequently).  

::::::: *SOMEONE* has to digest this stuff and either make a decision or present it to someone who can.  Simply ignoring it can result only in anger, stress, drama, and ultimately, people quitting the project(Or like in my case, never joining in the first place).  Yes sometimes it's a childish dispute.  Can you tell when it is and when it's not simply by tone?  I can't, this is why I read these things through.  And frankly, if the people that are supposed to be reading these things and sorting them out won't unless it's written a particular way, the inevitable result is actual wikilawyers!  People that can't explain the things in a way that gets noticed get someone else to do it for them, so they don't just get ignored.  God knows it's the last thing this project needs.

::::::: This dispute is a perfect example.  No one has stepped in to close it as being baseless, but no one has stepped in to sort it out and deal with it either, leaving the dispute in a sort of escalating limbo.  People get more and more pissed off as they're repeatedly ignored, and end up typing out ever longer and more involved things trying to exhaustively document the dispute.  They conclude that the fact nothing's been done is because nobody's yet seen enough to prompt them to do anything.  If you tell them that it's because their arguments aren't well presented, they're just going to be hurt, angry, and offended, and it'll end up worse.  Especially if it's a complex and extended dispute involving a lot of incidents over a long period of time, as it does with Otter.

::::::: If this dispute continues as it has in the past, there are only two possible outcomes.  It ends up at ArbComm, because they're the only ones I've seen on here who bother to actually make sure everything that's presented is read... which is wrong on more levels than I can name.  The other is it continues until one side in its entirety quits the project in disgust at what they see as the bias inherent in the system.  Both are stupid, both are pointless, and both make wikipedia as a whole look really, really bad. -Graptor [[Special:Contributions/208.102.243.30|208.102.243.30]] ([[User talk:208.102.243.30|talk]]) 01:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I offered the chance to quote 1 incivil comment of mine as they keep repeating [[WP:CIVIL]], and if they find one I'll request to be blocked myself. Looks like they couldn't find any, so the offer is off. I'm sure I wouldn't have to look far to find some directed towards me though. That sums most of this up.--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 15:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

: You'll need to read [[WP:CIVIL]] a little better:
: "Incivility consists of ... aggressive behaviours that disrupt the project and lead to unproductive stress and conflict... a behavioral pattern of incivility is disruptive and unacceptable, and may result in blocks"
: Almost immediate re-nom's for AfD of articles clearly fits the bill of being an "aggressive behaviour" and obviously one of "lead(ing) to unproductive stress and conflict". ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 15:58, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::They were not immediate and were all justified.--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 16:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::: You miss the point: the fact that we're all here after days of going on and on ''shows'' that they obviously were percieved to ''not'' be justified.  I go by a basic rule: If I CSD it, I don't then AfD it if the CSD is denied.  If the first AfD fails, and I still think it deserves it, I'm wise enough to wait 6 months before checking its current quality, and then trying it again.  This isn't rocket science, and doing otherwise makes one look like a raving rabid deletionist AND like you have a hate for specific articles, neither of which are necessarily healthy.   I'm not saying the articles don't deserve to be deleted, just be careful with [[WP:DICK]]ism ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 16:18, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::They were re-nominated because only fans of the series took part, which means the AFDs could only go one way. So I was checking if it could be deleted, and the canvassing off-site and lack of neutral input meant it could only go one way. By re-nominating it again I was hoping that I would get some neutral input and less fans taking part, but I was wrong. This was probably already said elsewhere, but I'm not suprised you haven't read this story-length amount of text.--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 16:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::::: If this was a different situation (like a bar), and I'd had a few drinks, I probably would have told you to "bugger off" at the suggestion that I had not read the "story-length amount of text".  You know as bloody well as I do that I've read ''more'' than the above.  Indeed, I'm the one who suggested an RFC/U long ago ... or did you forget that.  Unfortunately, I'm also trying to introduce the concept of "common sense" and "co-operative editing" to you as we go, hoping it can be avoided.  Re-AfD'ing because you didn't like the original result is disruption.  Oh, by the way, if you call someone else's edits "useless", it violates [[WP:CIVIL]], or perhaps you failed to read the story-length amount of text?  Take a look around, there's not a line-up of people behind you here. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 20:30, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:I certainly did not see any such offer. But here are your diffs: the edit summary [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jackson_Davis_(3rd_nomination)&diff=prev&oldid=310857263 here], comments: [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jackson_Davis_(3rd_nomination)&diff=next&oldid=311106605] [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jackson_Davis_(3rd_nomination)&diff=prev&oldid=311501258] [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jackson_Davis_(3rd_nomination)&diff=next&oldid=311508323] and that's just on the Jackson Davis 3rd AfD alone. I'm sure I could find more in other places if I looked. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 16:01, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::Saying it's rant isn't incivil, because that's what it was. Nothing wrong with [12], [13] or [14].--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 16:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::I'm going to leave that up to third party editors to decide. To any of them: I can clarify why I believe these are incivil if you'd like, but I honestly believe they speak for themselves and I don't see the need to justify why to Otter, who is obviously not going to believe his own comments are uncivil (and that's not just for him, I'm sure any editor would have trouble admitting their own comments were not civil). --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 16:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::If I ever thought I had ever been incivil do you really think I would offer to be blocked if shown evidence? When you, and your fanbase stop assuming bad faith, 99% of this drama you have made will evaporate.--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 16:42, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::My point exactly. And once again, please read [[WP:TE#Characteristics_of_problem_editors]]. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 17:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:Kinda cute that you made {{diff|User talk:Otterathome|prev|314357629|this uncivil edit}} and then trotted over here to withdraw the offer 14 minutes later. "If you want to buy in to drama without investigating anything yourself, by all means, act like a sheep"--[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 16:05, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::His useless word comments agreeing with other people without actually adding anything shows he is being a sheep. It was the best way to describe it.--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 16:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::So you justify calling a user's post a rant "because it was one" and you justify calling a user a sheep because they made a "useless word comment"? So bascially these things are so because you deemed them such. And the way you deem these posts is that the users are operating under bad faith and making rants/sheep-like comments. And you wonder why people have trouble [[WP:AGF|assuming good faith]] for you? --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 17:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Multiple useless comments recently. So calling someone a sheep has made all of your fanbase that you've canvassed assume bad faith for several weeks? Funny. I'm still waiting to find out where all these incivil comments I've made are.--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 17:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Again, you call users' comments "useless" which is [[WP:CIVIL|uncivil]] and [[WP:AGF|assumes bad faith on their part]]. And this entire thread has shown plenty of earlier examples of incivility, it is not my job to go through and rebring up every single one now; they have been said before. And 1) I do not have a fanbase, I am a user and 2) please provide proof that I, personally, have canvassed a single vote, either on or off wikipedia. You can't. So in summary, you are lying, being uncivil, and assuming bad faith in one post. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 17:51, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::UPDATE: You need to stop calling user's comments "useless" (see [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2009_September_15&curid=24309759&diff=314384616&oldid=314383223 new diff]) It is a clear violation of [[WP:CIVIL]]. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 18:14, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::;::::There's nothing incivil calling someones comments useless, and it is your job to bring up incivility as you and your friends seem to think they exist. So much claim of incivility, yet no evidence.--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 18:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Plenty of diffs have been shown. Please show me where in [[WP:CIVIL]] it says you are allowed to call a user's post useless or a long rant because you think it is? In fact, I would reread [[Wikipedia:CIVIL#Engaging_in_incivility]] #1d if I were you. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 18:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

If you want me to I can create a separate page and list all the assuming bad faith and incivilness from the group of users defending these articles, but it would take a long time and wouldn't be a pleasant read. But as you fans are so persistent I may not have a choice.--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 16:14, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:The fact is, you keep telling users to [[WP:AGF]] but you find they won't, right? Read [[WP:TE#Characteristics_of_problem_editors]] which says "You find that nobody will assume good faith, no matter how often you remind them." Perhaps that will give you some idea. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 16:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

UPDATE: Otterathome has just essentially accused me of being a wikistalker [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Zoeydahling&curid=13344095&diff=314378543&oldid=313227780] and has threatened to create a [[WP:SOCKPUPPET|sockpuppet]] to further continue his behavior without detection [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Zoeydahling&diff=next&oldid=314378543]. --[[User:Zoeydahling|Zoeydahling]] ([[User talk:Zoeydahling|talk]]) 17:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:I would just like to point out [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:Otterathome/Sandbox&oldid=314176857 this page], which is on Otterathome's sandbox. I believe it gets to the root of his POV.--[[User:Modelmotion|Modelmotion]] ([[User talk:Modelmotion|talk]]) 18:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Anyone want to close this thread yet? It's becoming quite clear now that none of the users have been able to show evidence for any serious policy/guideline violations, despite going on for weeks. I don't mind a [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Otterathome]] as there's little progress being made here.--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 18:30, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:Considering I recently posted a diff of you calling someone sheep, and you not only defended yourself but repeated the slur on this board, I don't think it's ripe for closing quite yet. Especially when you claim that nobody's posted evidence of incivility.--[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 18:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::He was inflaming the situation, and if that's the worst comment I've made, then why did all these huge walls of text exist before I made that comment? Oh yeah, because of all these incivil comments I made that nobody can seem to show me.--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 18:58, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

===Arbitrary OtterBreak Three===
Since this entire thing has turned into Otter yelling "they can't prove it, they can't prove it" over and over, I would like to add that I did, in fact, spend five hours+ yesterday, after he "invited" [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:80.171.128.47&oldid=314174530 me, personally], to provide evidence of his behavior. I have already narrowed his 500 then-recent edits down to several dozen revisions worth a second look. The reason I have not pointed out a single revision is not necessarily that there aren't any, but that a) with at least 15 processes of his, assuming an average of ten posts each of his, even assuming only 4 primary policies (WP:CIVIL, WP:AFD, WP:AGF, WP:NEWBIES) to check, we're still talking about 15*10*4* = 600 different constellations to look at, and, more importantly, b) that Otters behavior is less a problem of "direct" aggression, and more of subtle, constant disruption and refusal to cooperate. Apart from the revision where he flat-out [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:LG15:_The_Last&diff=307784209&oldid=307738885 bossed us around], there are few singular revisions usable as "evidence". He doesn't go out and tell people to go fuck themselves or something. Instead, he just constantly ignores what they're saying, or continuously dismisses their opinions as being from irrelevant fanboys. Which is just as much uncivil, but such a pattern is not visible from a single revision, and only becomes clear when one lines up multiple revisions of the same, repeating, disruptive behavior again and again.<br>
He knows that. Which is why he insists so much on a ''single'' revision, a ''single'' quote.<br>
Rest assured, I am working on such a list, but given that I have to weed through one and a half months of revisions, it could take several more days, if not a week (I have other stuff to do, too, after all). Especially considering, that with aggressive PMs, random bold yelling etc., it's not like the list of uncivil behavior is shrinking.<br>
In theory, I'd be open for a break of this discussion until I'm done, but in practice, seeing how Mathieas's issue was quickly archived and pretended to have never existed without any official solution, I'm not sure a break would serve the discussion.

As said, the behavior I'm talking about is hard to prove with only a few revisions, but still, in order to prove I'm not talking out of my ass, and actually ''am'' working on that list, I'll try to give an example from the revisions I checked so far:<br>
[[Wikipedia:CIVIL#Co-operation and civility]] states:
:"''Editors are expected to be reasonably cooperative, to refrain from making personal attacks, to work within the scope of policies, and to be responsive to good-faith questions.''"
This how that looks in practice with Otter:<br>
*A discussion participant asks ''"Otterathome, the template is a statement that you don't think this article meets the guidelines, it is not an explanation of why. So, here's the question -- Can you explain why you think this article fails Wikipedia's guidelines? Please note that a mere reference back to the template you added is not a proper answer. Thanks!"''
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:GigaOM&diff=prev&oldid=314086184 Otter's reply]: ''"Uhm, you want me to copy and paste the template here? I didn't think an explanation was needed by looking at the sources. Source 1. primary source, source 2 is a stats page, and source 3 shows the website on a list of a 100 other websites. Here is the template for convenience though:"'' He then includes/substitutes the template again.
*The original user replies: ''"No, Otterathome, I didn't want you to cut and paste the template here. Don't be deliberately obtuse. The template is a ''statement'', it is not an ''explanation'' of ''why'' you think a template applies. Fortunately, you managed to (accidentally?) provide an explanation : <blockquote>Source 1. primary source, source 2 is a stats page, and source 3 shows the website on a list of a 100 other websites.</blockquote> That's an explanation, as opposed to the template, which is a statement. Statement != Explanation. An explanation is almost ALWAYS needed when applying a template, especially when an explznation is asked for. Makes your arguments go a whole lot smoother."''
*To which he [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:GigaOM&diff=prev&oldid=314131638 says]: ''"An explanation would be appropriate, but I didn't think so by looking at the serious lack of sources. Any editor with a basic understand of notability policies would know exactly why it was placed."''
Not only is he clearly not "responsive" to a reasonable question, to the point where the asking user accuses him of being "deliberately obtuse", but in the process, he also constantly belittles the user, implying s/he shouldn't even have to ask, and that the fact that she had to ask is a sign of lacking "basic understand[ing] of notability policies", making for an entirely independent, secondary violation of WP:CIVIL, engaging in incivility.

As said, it's a pattern, it takes many revisions to show, but that was the best example I could come up with on a whim. I will try to show the pattern with multiple revisions, but, as said, with as many edits as he makes, it can take a while.
:~ Renegade - [[Special:Contributions/213.39.211.244|213.39.211.244]] ([[User talk:213.39.211.244|talk]]) 19:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
<small>P.S.: I find it ironic that Otter, of all people, is the one yelling for proof, after it was him that started all this with a completely baseless accusation of "wikistalking" which purely served to discredit Mathieas.</small>
<small>P.P.S.: Sorry for the post length :S</small>

:Out of 500 edits that is all you've come up with? Like I said, no serious guidelines/policy violations. Close now?--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 19:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::You're making it clearer and clearer that you're a [[WP:TE|tendentious editor]], Otter. I strongly suggest backing off and stop yelling that everyone except you is wrong. That way lies enforced wikivacations. --[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 19:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Nope, I'm just trying to the bottom of this and get it resolved. But I can't resolve an issue I don't have evidence for.--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 19:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::: Yo, Otter, I'm really happy for you and I'mma let you finish but [[User: Jujutacular|Jujutacular]] has the most article for deletion nominations of all time.--[[User:Jenlight|jenlight]] ([[User talk:Jenlight|talk]]) 05:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Massive problem with admin [[User:Sandstein]] ==

At [[User_talk:Russavia#Topic_ban]] [[User:Sandstein]] notified me that I was "topic-banned from all edits or pages related to the history of the Soviet Union and its successor states (including Russia and the Baltic states), broadly construed and extending to all pages in all namespaces, for the duration of six months." I took issue with this, due to the editors who reported me to AN/I being as guilty of the same types of Battle over a variety of articles, and gave specific examples of it; inserting and edit-warring at [[Soviet War Memorial (Treptower Park)]] over the insertion of accusations that the memorial is known as the ''Tomb of the Unknown Rapist''; which turns out was totally false, and the editors in question had not sighted sources they claimed to have done; the other being [[Alexander Litvinenko]] at which an editor professed his belief that Putin is a paedophile on the talk page, and the insertion of poorly sourced [[WP:BLP|BLP violating material]] on said article on that accusation. The issue I had is partly the fact that it was made out that I am the only one who is guilty of such [[WP:BATTLE]] violations, and this is obviously not the case. As I wrote on my talk page "I am not blaming others, but I am saying that there are factors which contribute to such things, and that it is only fair that those factors be investigated also. Sandstein refuses to do this, which can only be seen as implicit approval of the behaviour of others as I have raised here. It's about being equitiable and making all editors responsible for their own edits, instead of using carefully selected diffs in order to get rid of a content opponent." So I am taking responsibility for my own edits, if anyone thinks otherwise, and am willing to cop things on the chin, within reason.

At [[User_talk:Russavia#List_of_articles]] I have posted a long list of articles I have been responsible for in creating and/or expanding, as a response to a question by another editor just above. Just below the list I wrote the following: "Having said that, I will abide by the topic ban...the history of the Soviet Union isn't really an area that interests me anyway---articles are so biased, that anyone with half a brain who should read them will know that they are biased and will take the article for the joke that they usually are."

Just below this, I queried of Sandstein how the Putin article wouldn't be part of the ban, but comments on a talk page would be. His response astounds me, as all one would have to do is "did you see on *insert name of Soviet history article here* Russavia's edits...what a fuckwit", and I would be in breach of the ban if I were to raise it, according to information I was clearly given This is doing my head in as much as yours, I know.

After the lifting of the permaban on myself, I posted [[High-Potential Management Personnel Reserve]] to namespace from my userspace. I tweaked a category on [[Dmitry Medvedev]] and reverted on [[Alexander Litvinenko]] (link to reasoning coming later). These edits garnered this response from Sandstein at [[User_talk:Russavia#Warning]]. Given the amount of conflicting information coming from Sandstein, as to what is or isn't covered by the ban (according to him), the fact that he all but said that Putin wouldn't be covered by this ban, led me to rightly assume that the articles I created would also not be included. The [[High-Potential Management Personnel Reserve]] was created 1 year ago, so is hardly history. 

An uninvolved admin posted a request at [[User_talk:Russavia#Requesting_comment]] seeking clarification as to exactly what articles I can or can't edit, given Sandsteins ''interpretation'' of history -- something that I had already sought beforehand, but got no conclusive answers. Sandstein responded to this with [[User_talk:Russavia#Topic_ban_extended]] -- he has now banned me from ALL articles relating to Russia or Russians, and has made the laughable claim that I am disruptive in this entire area, which is clearly '''not''' the case. Also note Ezhiki's question "Dmitry Medvedev is a current politician as well, yet he was the first to be listed in your warning above. I guess I just don't see the logic (and by the looks of it Russavia doesn't either, and he has to work under this ban somehow). I hope you understand that under such restrictions a clarity of the guidelines is of utmost importance. Further comments, please?" It appears to me that Sandstein has extended the ban because he could not be bothered in providing details of what would and wouldn't be covered. How am I an editor under restrictions supposed to know what articles I can and can't edit when I get conflicting information from the admin handing down the decisions as judge, jury and executioner. 

I posted at [[User_talk:Sandstein#A_solution]] a possible solution. That being that seeing as Sandstein believes I am a problematic editor in articles relating to the history of the USSR/Russia with the Baltic States, that the 6 month ban be limited to those types of articles. There is no evidence of me being a problem across ALL Russian articles, by any stretch of the imagination, and by limiting the scope to the areas in which I am seen to be a problem, there can be no ambiguity about whether an article I am editing is part of the ban or not. Simply blanket banning an editor from an entire topic in which it can be shown they are productive, because of a problem in a small corner, is not the way that an admin should be operating, particularly moreso when they have not provided sound reasoning for 1) what articles may or may not be edited and 2) extending the ban despite unanswered questions and objections from numerous other admins and editors in good standing.

I take responsibility for my actions, and agree to abide by a topic ban; that being the original topic ban as placed along with sound reasoning as to what articles I may or may not edit (very ambigious although even then), or the topic ban that I suggested on Sandstein's talk page (totally unambiguous as to what I may or may not edit). I recognise that it is my wikibehaviour which is the cause of the initial topic ban, and I take responsibility for that; other's behaviour can, and will, be dealt with elsewhere at another time. There seems to a consensus amongst those admins and editors who have already commented that the blanket ban now in force is draconian and is totally unwarranted. Sandstein mentioned it should be taken to [[WP:AE]], but as this is now as much of a problem with Sandstein's ''conduct'' as the ban itself, it is probably the best solution that both issues be dealt with in the one place, as both Sandstein and myself are at fault here, and that is what I am requesting.  --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 19:26, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
:Russavia, huge suprise, you ignored my advice to move on. 
:So you probably will ignore this advice to: large block of text will probably be skipped over and ignored, this needs to be cut down by 80%.   You also have no edit diffs to support your allegations. 
:It is a real shame you will be indefenetly banned within a few weeks, if not a few days. [[User:Ikip|Ikip]] ([[User talk:Ikip|talk]]) 19:32, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
::This is wrong place. If Russavia wants to appeal the sanction by Sandstein, he should complain at [[WP:AE]]. If he wants to sanction Sandstein, he should ask ArbCom. If he wants to reverse the previous vote at the ANI that had happened two days ago (the decision by Sandstein was supported by two other administrators and no one voted against), he should provide some new and really  compelling arguments in his favor.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys|talk]]) 19:48, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

:Seeing this wall of text, I did some research
::March 2009 - [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive37#Thanks_for_coming_to_the_party|Russavia is warned by Jehochman to respect NPOV]] under [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary_sanctions|RFAR/Digwuren]]
::June 2009 [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#List_of_editors_placed_on_notice|Russavia is formally warned and placed on notice by Thatcher]] under [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary_sanctions|RFAR/Digwuren]]
::September 2009 [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Log_of_blocks_and_bans|Russavia is formally topic banned by Sandstein]] under  [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary_sanctions|RFAR/Digwuren]]
:Among other things, all of the proper paperwork is in place and it is obvious that Sandstein is not the only administrator who has found Russavia's conduct in this area problematic (there are other blocks for stalking and edit warring, but I am focusing on these in particular).  Unless this goes to [[WP:AE]] the sanctions will not be overturned and you will be blocked if you violate the topic ban.  The other option is appealing to arbcom at [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Requests_for_clarification]]. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 19:42, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
::Russavia, you can move this to WP:AE, otherwise someone else will probably close this and move it for you. Again, I would strongly suggest condensing this by 80%. You can add this information later, if needed and brought up. [[User:Ikip|Ikip]] ([[User talk:Ikip|talk]]) 19:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
:::The issue at hand is not Russavia's behavior being problematic&mdash;he himself admitted that restricting his edits in the area where he is judged to have caused problems is warranted.  The issue is that he was placed under editing restrictions, yet all his requests to explain just what exactly those restrictions entail were either ignored by the Sandstein (admin handling the topic-ban) or replied in a manner that did not clarify much (please, do take time to read conflicting and self-contradictory responses to Russavia's inquiries on his talk page).  If one is restricted from editing certain topics and agrees to abide by such a restriction, why should the question to explain what those restrictions include be met not with a proper explanation, but with accusations of disruptiveness and extensions of the topic-ban?  Such behavior can easily be seen as admin abuse, and this is precisely why Sandstein's actions were questioned by two other admins (myself included) and several editors.  ''This'' is what this inquiry is about.  What the ban was imposed for in the first place is beyond the scope of this thread&mdash;Russavia accepted it and only needed some clarifications, which he has full rights to ask for.—[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky)]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;([[User talk:Ezhiki|yo?]]); 20:03, September&nbsp;11, 2009 (UTC)
The referrals to AE and arbitration clarifications appear to be correctly stated.  The community does not have the ability to overturn sanctions that derive from discretionary provisions of an arbitration case.  No comment or opinion on whether the current action was meritorious. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|317]]''</sup> 20:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
:No request to overturn sanctions has been made here.  The request is to review the actions of an admin, who was unable to explain what exactly does and does not fall under the definition of the topic ban he imposed, and, rather than to provide such explanations, chose to extend the ban to include pretty much everything the user has ever been editing ("just in case", I guess?).  It is my understanding that an admin should be able to explain his actions when asked to do so (and he was asked not just by Russavia, but by at least five other people, none of whom were involved in the shenanigans that led to Russavia's topic-ban).  Is that an unreasonable request unsuitable for WP:AN/I?—[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky)]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;([[User talk:Ezhiki|yo?]]); 20:30, September&nbsp;11, 2009 (UTC)
::Such a request should be directed to the Arbitration Committee because the acting administrator invokes an arbitration decision. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|317]]''</sup> 20:59, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
So Sandstein unblocks an editor, and that editor makes his first edit a complain here... the topic ban was certainly justified, and a block following its violation seems justified as well, although I would quibble whether it was justified to make it an indef - I would go with a day or so for the first violation. Overall, I think Sandstein acted properly. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 20:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

:(e/c with the last two comments) The wall of text by Russavia above (after a day of exchanges in this vein) is too long for me to read as well, so I would just like to refer interested colleagues to the relevant prior discussions at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive562#Russavia unacceptable behavior at The Soviet Story]] and [[User talk:Sandstein#A solution]]. Should there be admin consensus to modify or overturn either my original topic ban or my subsequent expansion of it (although per [[WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions]] any appeal discussion should take place at [[WP:AE]]), then that is of course fine with me, but I would appreciate it if any administrator making such an amendment would join the few of us who patrol [[WP:AE]] (rarely a fun chore, unfortunately). I apologize if any of my very unsuccessful attempts to help Russavia understand the scope of and reason for his ban may have been confusing or contradictory. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 20:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
:Support Sandsteins's actions without reservation; caution Russavia not to become disruptive in his characterization of sanctions against him, well and duly earned, as poor actions by the administrator who carried out the final phase. I note not the several warnings received, nor the previous discussions, have led Russavia to contemplate his actions with an eye to improving his demeanor and habits here, and suggest that unless he wishes to meet with further sanctions, he not waste any more bandwidth or time on complaining that he acted poorly and was justifiably sanctioned. Puppy has spoken. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<small><sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup>[[User:Heimstern/Ignoring incivility|Advice]]</small> 20:33, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
:For the sake of moving on and not dragging this to infinity, I would suggest that Russavia should be placed under a topic-ban as outlined at [[User talk:Sandstein#A solution]] (in brief: articles dealing with the history of the Soviet Union and the Baltic States would be a no-no, while something as innocuous as Russian airlines or diplomatic relations with countries outside of the Baltics would be OK).  In case of reasonable doubts, Russavia needs to be explained which kinds of articles he may and may not edit under the editing restrictions.  It's not like the terms of the topic-ban cannot be extended later should that become necessary; until then there is no need to deprive Wikipedia of many useful edits Russavia made in the course of last months.  Would anyone second that?—[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky)]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;([[User talk:Ezhiki|yo?]]); 20:39, September&nbsp;11, 2009 (UTC)

*'''Procedural oppose''' it would muddy the waters to overlay a community sanction on top of disputed impementation of the Digwuren arbitration discretionary sanctions.  Please straighten this out through regular channels.  [[WP:RFAR]] is thataway. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|317]]''</sup> 21:05, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

::I completely support Ezhiki. I am not uninvolved enough to see if the original topic ban is warranted but by extension it to basically anything this user with tens of thousand user has written we just defacto ban one of a very few content producers in this already severely under-resourced area.  Soon there will be not enough people there to simply maintain the articles (it is already not enough for any significant projects). IMHO the ban's negatives much underweight all the possible benefits. I would support very broad ban of Russavia from the topics related to Baltic states, Russia-Baltic and Soviet-Baltics relation there the most of the conflict seems to be centred in. Regarding the procedure, I was under impression that AN/I is a good place to review administrative actions but ff AE is a more appropriate forum for review of the topic ban then please transfer my statement there [[User:Alex Bakharev|Alex Bakharev]] ([[User talk:Alex Bakharev|talk]]) 00:56, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Ezhiki and Bakharev make some good points here. The original topic ban resulted from Russavia's incivil reaction to a series of calculated provocations by Martintg and others, who are trying to get rid of their content opponent. [[WP:CIVIL]] explicitly states, that the policy should not be used as a weapon against others; therefore their behaviour should be condemned. However, one could expect an experienced editor such as Russavia to be more careful. There is no excuse for getting provoked. The original topic ban (Soviet history) may be warranted, but I disagree with Sandstein's extension, which doesn't seem to be based on solid argumentation, but on Sandstein's personal frustration. (The correct decision would have been to delegate the issue to another, uninvolved admin who could assess it more calmly.) Since Russavia is one of the most productive editors in Russia-related subjects, the extended topic ban would hurt this area of WP a lot and would have far more negative than positive consequences. I think this [[User talk:Sandstein#A solution|solution]] would be the best way to go. [[User:Offliner|Offliner]] ([[User talk:Offliner|talk]]) 01:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
::::After spending too much time reading this stuff on various pages, I agree with Ezhiki, Bakharev and Offliner.  I doubt Russavia would violate the terms of his proposal, which goes to the heart of the matter and doesn't deprive the encyclopedia of his contributions in other areas.[[User:John Z|John Z]] ([[User talk:John Z|talk]]) 04:23, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::I believe that a more limited ban would not suffice to prevent continued disruption because Russavia does not really recognize having done anything wrong in the first place, because he has a history of disruption across Russia-related topics and because he seems to have a tendency to wikilawyer the limitations of any restrictions. But should there emerge an admin consensus for limiting the scope of the ban, I would appreciate any admin who implements such consensus to take (co-)responsibility for enforcing it. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 05:16, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Well he does say "I recognise that it is my wikibehaviour which is the cause of the initial topic ban" in his TL,DR above, so I AGF. Speculation on his future conduct is just that, and disingenuous wikilawyering out of restrictions he devised would be hard.   His disruptions have at times consisted of pointing out serious problems (BLP) in an ineffective way, rather than taking it to BLP/N, say. I ain't an admin, but I'd add my 2 cents and tell him he's behaving like an idiot if he does.[[User:John Z|John Z]] ([[User talk:John Z|talk]]) 09:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Per several commentators above, this is not the proper forum (either AE appeal or ArbCom) but while it's here I do feel it necessary to point to Russavia's behavior after the action:
*"''Perhaps I will start a new account, and use it to spread accusations of people being murderers, paedophiles and shit like that. But of course, the people will be Russian. What will that get me? Oh, don't worry, I know that already...a medal.''" - threats of creating sock puppet accounts, obvious attempts at battleground, incivility and extreme assumption of bad faith against Sandstein (who's ruled several times against me I might add and is probably one of the most fair and reasonable admins on AE)
*"''That has gotta be the most sorry and pathetic excuse for a banning I have ever seen.''" - incivility bordering on a personal attack
*"''But hey, this has to do with the history of Russia, broadly construed, so I will wait with baited breathe for one of the adolescent children to come running to you to ban me''" - personal attacks against other editors, simply because they dared to report his/her bad behavior.
*"''What an absolutely-fucking-exciting article that would be to read, I can hardly wait to read it''" - completely unnecessary profanity and sarcasm aimed at amping up the drama, battleground (there's a lot more of this, I just picked a single example)
*"''I will fight you on that.''" - note that part of the original report was Russavia saying stuff like "I will fight you to the death on that" on articles
*"''So-called topic ban be damned.''" - this appears to be a willful violation of the  ban and a "challange" to Sandstein.
And a whole lot more at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Russavia#Topic_ban].
Basically, the Russavia's response should be enough to clear away any doubts that a topic ban was very appropriate. Given that Russavia then responded by purposefully violating his topic ban twice, an overall ban was also appropriate. The fact that this user has created content does not excuse the gross incivility, personal attacks and creation of battlegrounds (not to mention edit warring) that this user engages in (if this was an isolated instance then content creation could serve as a mitigating factor but this user is most definetly a repeat offender, as can be seen from his/her block log).

Russavia could have accepted his topic ban or appealed it through the proper channels. He could have asked for clarification without the use of profanity and personal attacks. Instead he '''himself''' made things worse for her/himself by increasing the level of incivility and rudeness and announcing to everyone that s/he was going to violate the ban and then proceeding to violate it. While s/he spends a lot of time on his/her talk page blaming others, I think it's pretty clear that there's only one person to blame here.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 05:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

:'''Support''' - Sandstein's action. It was up to Sandstein to rule in this case and he did so. I do not believe that current practice allows AE cases be taken to ANI by disappointed participants. Russavia is welcome to pursue his grievance at [[WP:RFAR]]. If Russavia thinks Sandstein misused his admin powers let him try to make the case to Arbcom directly. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 06:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
:*'''Nothing changes on Wikipedia does it?''' Actually the real problem is being ignored. The problem over Russavia is actually inconsequential, the problem is that yet again we have an Admin, this time Sandstein, acting in an arrogant and overbearing way, and as usual most are joyfully shrieking "wrong place" or "don't be mean to Admins." In truth,  it matters not one jot if this is in the wrong place, this is an encyclopedia not a Politburo run by programmed robots. As usual, here, the result is do anything but look at the true problem - that one Admin can be permitted to behave in this way is wrong and needs to be stopped. Such Admin behaviour has already cost Wikipedia dearly, many former content editors have already disappeared, or like me, stopped writing completely, sickened by juvenile, pompous and arrogant little people, who have through some default been allowed to become Admins. It's a huge problem and it's a growing problem. Now we shall have the usual catcalls of "It's Giano, ban him" "How dare he be so rude" and "put it in the right place" - as I said nothing changes here - does it? So many Wiki-departments  for so many crimes, so many wanting to be in charge of them, and so few to do the real work. It's pathetic! Now stick it in the right place - and,  I could make a suggestion as to where. [[User:GiacomoReturned|Giano]] ([[User talk:GiacomoReturned|talk]]) 08:56, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
:**I'm '''in full agreement''' with Giano's comments above. He describes the problem very well. --[[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 09:30, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
:***I'm not; the characterisation of "juvenile, pompous and arrogant" is a bit strong.  Nevertheless, I do agree that as a learning point, it would've been possible to use a more respectful and tactful tone with this editor.—[[User:S Marshall|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:maroon;">'''S Marshall'''</span>]] [[User talk:S Marshall|<font color="Maroon" size="0.5"><sup>Talk</sup></font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|<font color="Maroon" size="0.5"><sub>Cont</sub></font>]] 10:55, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
::::May I inquire who you believe should use a more respectful and tactful tone with which editor? (See also Durova's comment in the "Trout" section below, who appears to have erroneously believed that I used any expletives or was in any way incivil.) <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 21:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::I think the community as a whole could perhaps have used a lighter touch with Russavia.  So far as I can see, no individual editor said anything out of line, and I quite deliberately refrained from naming anyone as a perpetrator.  But, I think the cumulative effect of all the things said to Russavia was stronger than it needed to be in the circumstances.—[[User:S Marshall|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:maroon;">'''S Marshall'''</span>]] [[User talk:S Marshall|<font color="Maroon" size="0.5"><sup>Talk</sup></font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|<font color="Maroon" size="0.5"><sub>Cont</sub></font>]] 23:28, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Overall, the way [[User:Sandstein|Sandstein]] communicates with [[User:Russavia|Russavia]] is really strange, to my personal opinion. It makes me remember US films where a police officers has to act against a car hijacker that has run into a bunch of innocent pedestrians whyle trying to escape police. No mercy, no listening to the other side's words, maximum sanctions, etc. And, to look at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=The_Soviet_Story&diff=312490545&oldid=312490482 origins] of this case, [[User:Russavia|Russavia]] behaviour was quite far from battling anyone, and agression of course. Telling "I will fight you until death on this edit:D" - may only be understood as a humour, even if there is no smiley after it, and there is one. Strange days, strange ways of administration, I'd say. 
::::::BTW, after I [[User:Sandstein|Sandstein]] actions against [[User:Russavia|Russavia]], I seriously consider the possibility that after this very edit I will be banned from, say, "editing discussions of administrators' actions". In this case I will gladly delete my account myself, and leave from editing WP, for I do not want to have an account on a site where admins are like slavemasters. And '''I will fight you to the death on it, [[User:Sandstein|Sandstein]]:D''' [[User:FeelSunny|FeelSunny]] ([[User talk:FeelSunny|talk]]) 10:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::* Oh, the drama.<p>Sandstein himself didn't go over the top.  He was strong, but not too strong in the circumstances.  It all got a bit too much earlier in this thread when people started rushing to Sandstein's defence.  Admins aren't slavemasters, they're volunteers; they can be wrong (and all too often are).  They still deserve to be approached with respect.<p>The problem here is that as a group, they haven't given that respect to Russavia.—[[User:S Marshall|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:maroon;">'''S Marshall'''</span>]] [[User talk:S Marshall|<font color="Maroon" size="0.5"><sup>Talk</sup></font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|<font color="Maroon" size="0.5"><sub>Cont</sub></font>]] 17:08, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::The problem is that you can not feel safe editing wikipedia just staying within the borders of a common sense. Instead you need to keep in mind billion rules, and think that some very proactive admin may interpret your words in quite a weird way, then setting some freaking ban on your account. And this is sad. [[User:FeelSunny|FeelSunny]] ([[User talk:FeelSunny|talk]]) 18:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::'''Comment''' - Russavia needed to be pulled into line, but the actions of Sandstein were disproportionate, and maybe even vindictive.  [[Wikipedia:Mentorship|Mentorship]] for Russavia may be an appropriate remedy, as I consider some of his actions now and previously have unintentionally led to conflict.  Banning should always be a last resort, and I do not believe we have exhausted all options. 
:: Russavia, some of your actions in the past have annoyed me (your reformatting of [[Diplomatic missions of Russia]] without due regard for category consistency being the most egregious).  However you have written some articles of note, and I have found you to be a largely conscientious and dedicated editor.  Those values, unfortunately, are what drive some of us to take extreme exception whenever other members of the community present ideas different from ourselves.  Some suggestions:
:: (1) take a measured approach whenever you come into conflict with others.  Humour trolls.  Reason with one-track-mind agenda pushers while respecting their values.  Ignore vandals as you remove their handiwork.
:: (2) don't write ''War and Peace'' when presenting your opinions.  Be succinct and to the point.    
:: (3) respect your audience.  It is cute at best, and galling at worst, when we Australians who have never known warfare or oppression insensitively seek to impose our views on others who may have a clearer understanding of events, we risk being labled as [[Useful idiot|Полезный идиот]].
:: (4) never loose your temper - well, you can loose your temper, but just don't type when this happens.
:: (5) there is nothing shameful about "crying to" an administrator.  Standing up for yourself in a fight might win you respect at [[Mirrabooka Senior High School]].  Running your own edit war here is neither helpful nor heroic.     
::Sandstein - I know that Russavia can be annoying and over-eager sometimes, but remember that the standard of behaviour and accountability for Admins is always expected to be higher.    [[User:Kransky|Kransky]] ([[User talk:Kransky|talk]]) 11:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
:::I agree with Alex Bakharev that Russavia contributes positively in articles on modern Russian history, and he contributes a lot. His problem is different. Russavia perceives a significant number of users to be "enemies of Russia" and he is going to fight with such users "to the death" as he said himself. He is so obsessed that he named (or indicated in diffs) some of his perceived "enemies"  in reply to Sandstein. If he is prohibited from editing any articles edited by users who he named himself as his "enemies" and from commenting about these users, this may be fine, and the topic restriction could be lifted.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys|talk]]) 13:16, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
::::I would like Russavia to be restricted from editing articles concerning diplomatic relations and missions.  The issue isn't political, but rather he took it upon himself to reformat [[List of diplomatic missions of Russia]] without seeking or obtaining consensus.  Almost all the other list of diplomatic missions by country articles are formatted in a standard matter (see [[List of diplomatic missions of Kenya]], [[List of diplomatic missions of Peru|Peru]] or [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=List_of_diplomatic_missions_of_Russia&oldid=187894642|Russia, before it was changed]]).  The matter was [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_International_relations/Archive_2|debated]] last year without resolution.  I am a stickler for consistency, as it helps avoid any suggestion of double standards.
::::Russavia has also created plenty of stubb articles on Russian ambassadors, diplomatic missions and relations with specific countries of varying quality.   [[User:Kransky|Kransky]] ([[User talk:Kransky|talk]]) 13:41, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Add: I actually took the time to read Russavia's long post here, as well as the extensive write ups on his own talk page. The striking thing is that NOWHERE does Russavia even indicate that he is aware that his conduct has been problematic, instead he blames and makes personal attacks on others, lashes out with profanity at Sandstein, threatens to use sock puppets and acts as if it is up to him/her whether or not to abide by the ban or not. A very telling part is how he (mis)characterizes Sandstein's comments from his talk page, here - which is probably what is contributing to some editors mistakenly believing that somehow Sandstein was "rude" to Russavia - which he wasn't. For example, here is how Russavia describes Sandstein's comments:

''His response astounds me, as all one would have to do is "did you see on *insert name of Soviet history article here* Russavia's edits...what a fuckwit",''

Here is what Sandstein actually said:

''Since you agree to abide by your topic ban, I am unblocking you. Should you violate the ban, you may be re-blocked or your topic ban may be extended. As to your question, I cannot usefully answer it, since it seems to be some sort of accusation in the form of a question. Let me only note that no editor is "entitled" to redress or to anything else on Wikipedia. To clarify any ambiguity that may exist, you are topic-banned from the subject of Soviet (and Russian, Baltic, etc.) history. That means that you may pursue dispute resolution with other editors, except where such dispute resolution concerns content related to Soviet history. You may certainly object if others make personal attacks against you, and request appropriate admin action. However, I strongly advise you not to do this with respect to any such attacks that may have been previously made in the context of Soviet history articles, so as to avoid violating your topic ban inadvertently. Any wikilawyering about the ban will also not be tolerated.''

This is apparently the "astounding" response. How in the world did Russavia get the "fuckwit" comment (complete with quotation marks which make it seem like this was a phrase actually used by Sandstein, or someone else) from the measured and calm response by Sandstein?

These seem to be all attempts at creating Wiki drama and mis-characterizing Sandstein's actions in the hope that no one will bother to check their accuracy.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 15:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
:Let me bring you up to speed. [[User:Colchicum]] basically called me a Nazi on [[User:Digwuren]] talk page, formulating the response as [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Digwuren&oldid=312459873#Are_you_able_to_help_with_this.3F] "'''I stronly suggest you not collaborate with Ru[[Image:Schutzstaffel SS SVG1.1.svg|14px]]avia.'''" Sandstein claimed that I would be unable to address such personal attacks myself due to the ban, stating [[User_talk:Russavia#Example_of_others_WP:BATTLE_-_topic_ban_be_damned|"Russavia, if somebody else makes a proper WP:AE request about this, I will look at it, as will other admmins, but you are currently topicbanned and not helping yourself. If you continue in this vein, I will remove your ability to edit your talk page."]]. He later responded on my talk page "You may certainly object if others make personal attacks against you, and request appropriate admin action. However, I strongly advise you not to do this with respect to any such attacks that may have been previously made in the context of Soviet history articles, so as to avoid violating your topic ban inadvertently. Any wikilawyering about the ban will also not be tolerated." So I said, that all one would have to do (if they wanted to be a complete arsehole) is write on someone's talk page "did you see on *insert name of Soviet history article here* Russavia's edits...what a fuckwit" and I would be unable to do absolutely anything about it. Add into the fray, that I left the message on another editor's talk page, and another editor made the personal attack against myself. So in short, what Sandstein has said, is that ANY editor may make ANY personal attack on myself, whether it be calling me a fuckwit, a Nazi, communist scum, hell, even a paedophile, and they would only have to connect it to editing on a Russian/Soviet article, and I would be totally unable to report it, as it would violate the ban, according to Sandstein. Does anyone else agree with his opinion there? If so, I suggest you get your head read. --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 01:05, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Russavia, this is out of [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Russavia&diff=prev&oldid=313181646 context] and illustrates the problem of your being unable or unwilling to understand the scope of your restrictions (which is why I had to widen them to make them unambiguous). As I said there, you may of course report personal attacks (though this is the first time you provide an actual diff of that attack, which is indeed particularly revolting), including attacks like the "fuckwit" example you give, but it would be better not bring up ''old'' personal attacks that were previously made in areas within the topic ban or you might violate the ban inadvertently in the course of their discussion. Colchicum's "Ru[[Image:Schutzstaffel SS SVG1.1.svg|14px]]avia" attack would be grounds for an indef block, if immediately reported; as it is of March 2009, it is not really actionable any more (blocks are not punitive), but I am certainly ready to intervene if any such conduct repeats itself.
:::I am tired of this drama and propose the following: If any uninvolved administrator (i.e., nobody involved in Eastern Europe content disputes) believes that any other sanction against Russavia would be more appropriate and workable in lieu of the current broad Russia/Soviet topic ban, I do not object to them imposing that other sanction instead, with the understanding that ''they'' would be then responsible for any enforcement and fallout management. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 03:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Sandstein, it isn't the first time that I have provided the diff for the attack. I did so at [[User_talk:Russavia#Example_of_others_WP:BATTLE_-_topic_ban_be_damned]]. And it is your response there that made me unable to understand the ban, due to it basically being claimed such an attack would be covered under the ban. Do you get it now? --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 01:56, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

=== Trout ===
{{trout}}
[[File:Baked Trout with dill.jpg|right|thumb|250px|Baked trout with dill.]]
We all deserve a little trout for posting here.  It's lovely with baked with dill, broccoli, and potatoes <small>serves me right for offering mild commentary at an Eastern European dispute thread</small>.  Please remember that this noticeboard's purpose is community-based administrative action.  There are things it can do and things it cannot.

;Flowchart:
Seek modification of [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary_sanctions]] → [[Wikipedia:RFAR#Requests_for_clarification]]

Debate Sandstein's conduct → [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Sandstein]]

[[File:Red Herring2.jpg|right|thumb|250px|Allusions to the Politburo are red herrings.]]
Nobody is giving the run-around to shield abusive administrators from scrutiny.  In fact, if you want to scrutinize Sandstein properly I'll gladly certify RfC.  Sandstein, it would be advisable to tone down some of your statements.  Best wishes (and can we close this thread please)? <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|318]]''</sup> 17:42, 12 September 2009 (UTC) <small>your friendly local apparat''chick''</small>

:Thanks for your input, Durova, with which I agree with respect to procedure (although according to the relevant remedy appeals against sanctions should be made at [[WP:AE]]). Which of my statements do you think I should tone down? I ask this because it is always a particular concern of mine to meet professional standards of civility and courtesy in all interactions, even when the people I interact with do not, as is frequently the case at AE. Feel free to reply at my talk page so as not to prolong this thread. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 18:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
::To be candid, I posted that before fully reading Radek's statement above.  Apparently a crude expletive was attributed to you in quotation marks without a diff; Radek contends that what you actually posted was quite different (also without a diff).  Apologies if I misunderstood.  Since there have also been assertions that you failed to adequately define the scope of the ban, perhaps the best course of action would be to proactively open a request for clarification.  A number of experienced editors argue that a somewhat different restriction would be more effective at addressing the problems.  So a review of the restiction could occur definitively there.  And if diffs are forthcoming of inappropriate conduct on your part then that could be handled too.  Let's ''resolve'' disputes rather than expand them. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|318]]''</sup> 19:52, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Thanks for the clarification. If you refer to the word "fuckwit" used in Russavia's statement, of course I never used such an expletive and I am surprised to see that you believe I would. (I'm not sure that Russavia even means to allege that I did; his statement is somewhat confused.) Radek's quote is correct; the diff is [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Russavia&diff=prev&oldid=313181646]. – As to procedure, how to proceed is obviously up to whoever wants the sanction amended, but I believe that a request for clarification would not be the best venue, since nobody asks for clarification of the ArbCom remedy itself. Instead, as I have advised repeatedly to no effect, [[WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions]] directs that [[WP:AE]] be used to discuss any appeals. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 20:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
::::ArbCom has been reorganizing its spaces extensively lately.  There used to be a section for appeals; that doesn't exist anymore and seems to have been bundled with clarifications. <small>[[User:Hamlet, Prince of Trollmark|Hamlet, Prince of Trollmark]] is poking my elbow and making jibes about implications that ArbCom doesn't think it makes mistakes anymore.</small>  Anyway, in certain situations the best solution is for the acting administrator to initiate a motion and invite scrutiny.  ''Have I erred?  Will honor whatever outcome arises.''  Everybody gets to have their say in a venue that can actually have a meaningful effect; less frustration and drama on all sides.  Sounds sensible? <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|318]]''</sup> 20:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Well, to paraphrase a quip about the US Supreme Court, ArbCom is not the last instance because it's infallible, it's infallible because it's the last instance... For my part, I will not initiate any new proceedings and believe that I have adequately explained my opinion in the discussions that have already taken place, but I will of course honor any admin consensus or ArbCom decision modifying my sanction. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 21:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::And to steal a quote from [[Absolutely Fabulous]]: "I was trying to take control of my life, you know, only to find that it's actually controlled for me by petty bureaucracy and bits of bloody paper - ignorant bloody petty rules and '''laws that just obstruct every tiny little action until you've committed a crime without even knowing it! I mean, you know, why can't life just be made a little easier for everybody, eh?'''" Several admins and editors have said now that your explanations were not coherent enough to enable myself to continue editting - for example, why does removing BLP from [[Vladimir Putin]] not come under the ban, but editing [[Dmitry Medvedev]] does? Why does [[High-Potential Management Personnel Reserve]] (a program announced in July 2008, and first list released in February 2009) come under ''history'' of Russia, but [[User:Russavia/Duma-A]] would be ok for me to edit as it is a current list? The HPMPR also is a list of current members of this group. And why would the Duma list be ok, but Medvedev, who is the current President not be ok? It is this type of contradictions from yourself which has led to this. If you had of answered the questions that were asked of not only myself, but also of [[User:Ezhiki]] (who is an admin in good standing), we would know where I stood, and where I can edit. Instead, you totally ignored all of us and broadened the ban to include all Russian topics, and used reasoning that came across to me (and others) as some sort of "How dare you question me". You have fobbed off a solution that several editors and admins seem to think is a fair solution, and a solution that leaves us able to know exactly what I may edit without any doubts in anyones minds.  And you have also fobbed off a suggestion that I be allowed to continue editing articles in my userspace (see the list at [[User:Russavia]]). Also Sandstein, please cease and desist in saying that I do not take responsibility for my actions, because I have written it at least half a dozen times now in various ways and in various places - your continual spouting of this claim seems to me that you are only doing so to try and justify your actions which have been called into question. You demand that I take responsibility for my actions and for my role in this unfortunate drama. The question is, when will you stand up and take responsibility for your actions in this mess?  --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 21:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Actually Sandstein declares an intention to honor any consensus that forms at this ANI discussion.  So I'll be heading off to enjoy a fine meal of trout.  Best wishes for a satisfactory conclusion. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|318]]''</sup> 22:25, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I want to also note another case in which Sandstein has recently imposed a topic ban - on user Loosmark [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Loosmark]. This isn't in order to comment on Sandstein but rather to contrast the behavior of the two users, Russavia and Loosmark in response to their respective bans, and how the community has reacted to each.

Regardless of the actual merits of the case and how it will end, after being banned by Sandstein, Loosmark, after being topic banned [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Loosmark#WP:AE.23Loosmark], did NOT post long, profanity filled accusations against other users on his talk page. He did NOT make un-civil remarks towards Sandstein. He did NOT make promises to try and avoid the ban through the use of sock puppets. Instead he simply asked Sandstein about how to appeal the ban (although he did indicate that he found the ban ridiculous) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sandstein#the_topic_ban]. He then posted his appeal at the appropriate venue, appropriate formatted, in polite words, specifically addressing the issue at hand [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Appeal_against_the_topic_ban_imposed_on_me_by_Sandstein]. 

On the other hand, after receiving his topic ban, Russavia did ALL of those things that Loosmark did not. He threatened to create sock puppets ("Perhaps I will start a new account, and use it to spread accusations of people being murderers, paedophiles and shit like that."). He launched on long tirades accusing other editors of stuff month and months ago (I'm not gonna provide any more diffs and wiki links here - there are too many, and anyone who feels competent enough to offer an opinion or take any kind of action here HAS A RESPONSIBILITY to read through Russavia's talk page [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Russavia#Topic_ban], this report and all the other information). He made uncivil remarks to Sandstein (as well as to other editors) and explicitly stated that he was going to purposefully violate the ban (which is what caused his topic ban to be changed into a general ban). He threatened Sandstein. He made further comments with the purposeful intention of violating his topic ban ("topic ban be damned" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Russavia#Example_of_others_WP:BATTLE_-_topic_ban_be_damned]). He then filed an angry, profanity filled report here (though by the standards of his talk page, I guess this can be considered toned down) in which he misrepresented what Sandstein actually said to him, and continued with the incivility and the personal attacks. In fact he filed the report at the wrong place and then acted offended and insulted when this was pointed out to him. He also, unlike, Loosmark, went around and asked other editors to speak up for him.

Like I said, I don't know what the actual outcome of the two appeals (more precisely, one appeal and one misfiled report) will be, but I can imagine one set of outcomes that will contribute to creating the '''worst incentives possible''' for the future behavior of editors active in Eastern European topics. And these incentives would be - if you play by the rules, and act polite, you get screwed and your appeal rejected. Screaming loudly, using profanity, attacking users and administrators, creating lots of drama and generally acting in an uncivil manner will get you what you want. I understand some admins might be tired of dealing with this drama, but I would ask them to take a bit more of a long term view here.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 04:26, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

: I completely agree with Radeksz's account of the two situations.
: {{nbsp}}{{nbsp}} Russavia's melt down and subsequent recalcitrance, profanity and threats should be rewarded how? Any change to Sandstein's action will signal that <u>'''reward for threats, lobbying, and intimidation'''</u> are effective both in waging content wars and in avoiding sanctions for the most heinous display of a complete lack of any integrity or civility I've seen yet on WP. Even sockpuppeting paid propagandists pale by comparison.
: {{nbsp}}{{nbsp}} Russavia should have considered keeping to their positive contributions. Editors have accepted total bans of much longer duration in recognition they stepped over the line. ''Not Russavia''. Their behavior leading to the sanction and{{mdash}}100 times more disturbing{{mdash}}after the sanction is <u>'''their choice'''</u>. [[User:Vecrumba|<span style="color:#a12830; font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;">V<small>ЄСRUМВА</small></span>]] [[User_talk:Vecrumba|<span style="color:#ffffff; background-color:#a12830;">&nbsp;♪&nbsp;</span>]] 16:51, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

:Good points. See [[User:Piotrus/Morsels_of_wikiwisdom#On_why_so_many_admin_heads_are_seen_sticking_in_the_sand_when_push_comes_to_shove|my essay]] for an explanation of what is going on here. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 18:18, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

:@Durova: I think that a procedural oppose is not helpful here. Sandstein did the RIGHT THING. If he didn't do it perfectly in the light of our bureaucratic policies - so what? Disruptive users should be taught a lesson, and the lesson should not be "if you make a lot of noise and point out a procedural error, you can keep on being disruptive". See also [[User:Piotrus/Morsels_of_wikiwisdom#On_the_spirit_and_the_letter_of_Wikipedia|another of my essays]] :) --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 18:23, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
::The procedural oppose was not against Sandstein's action. It was to a proposed community-based sanction.  Since then Sandstein voluntarily announced willingness to accept consensus that arises here, so the procedural oppose may be considered  withdrawn. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|318]]''</sup> 22:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
::Arguably, Sandstein may have done the ''right thing'' at first, but his subsequent handling of the situation is nothing to write home about.  Russavia's behavior was definitely not stellar in many regards, but giving how he was subsequently treated, his frustration is something to be expected from a human being I suspect he is.  Analogies made with the Loosmark case are pretty misleading here.  Loosmark's edit ban was something that Loosmark found easy to comply with (there's only so much that can fall under "Ukrainian-Polish relations during WWII", even "broadly construed), even though he disagreed with the ban itself.  Russavia's topic ban turned out to be  anything but easy to comply with.  Being topic-banned "from all edits or pages related to the history of the Soviet Union and its successor states (including Russia and the Baltic states)" seems straightforward enough, true, but after Russavia vented his frustration with that (human behavior which is totally understandable, even though not laudable), accepted the original ban (however grudgingly), and attempted to work within the limits of that ban, what kind of treatment has he received?  He was [[User talk:Russavia#Warning|immediately warned]] that his edits are in violation of the ban.  Now, honestly folks, does editing [[High-Potential Management Personnel Reserve]] look like a "page related to the ''history'' of the Soviet Union and its successor states" (emphasis mine)?  OK, by some far-fetched definition maybe it does.  At this point, wouldn't you want to know what that definition is supposed to be?  Russavia sure did, so [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Russavia&diff=313188538&oldid=313187867 he requested explanations] as to the what the ban does and does not include.  Then he requested [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Russavia&diff=next&oldid=313188999 another one].  In response, he was [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Russavia&diff=next&oldid=313190967 basically told] that the ban includes everything that deals with Russians or Russia.  Now, I don't know about other admins, but I see it as a contradiction with the original terms.  So did Russavia.  So he [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Russavia&diff=next&oldid=313191642 asked again]. So [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Russavia&diff=next&oldid=313192351 did I].  How hard is it to explain what the ban does and does not include, anyway?  Apparently, so hard that it was easier to [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Russavia&diff=next&oldid=313194086 just extend the ban terms].  So, the bottom line: if one doesn't understand the ban terms and asks for a clarification, one should get his ban terms broadened?  That's what was at the root of this thread, and that's what seemingly got lost with all the issues that got folks sidetracked.
::All in all, it seems that an agreement emerges in this thread that [[User talk:Sandstein#A solution|this proposed solution]] is somehow a way to ignore Russavia's behavior and to "reward" him with loosening the ban.  In reality, it is nothing but the attempt to formalize the terms of the ban the way it was imposed initially by Sandstein himself.  Can we please stick to discussing that and not get distracted with issues of Russavia's behavior (for which he is going to be punished well enough by this topic ban in whatever form it is finally worded)?  I see no one reacted to Sandstein's generous offer to take over handling of this ban either.  I somehow doubt my candidature is going to be the best fit for that task (I don't believe I'm involved with "Eastern European" disputes, but I sure am now involved with this case), but if no one objects, I will be more than willing to make sure that for the next six months Russavia does not touch a single article that deals with the history of the Soviet Union and the Baltic states ''and'' remains civil in all his interactions (the last clause is not a part of either the original or a modified topic ban, but since it's a concern voiced by several people in this very thread, it makes sense to include it).  If no other candidate emerges, and Sandstein remains the one in charge of enforcement, let's at least try to enforce something that is fairly imposed and is not a "let's ban the guy just in case and because we don't like his attitude" decision.  Since when have our admins stopped being fair and impartial and became petty and acrimonious?  Between two solutions&mdash;one limiting disruption ''and'' positive contributions and another just limiting disruption&mdash;shouldn't we want to select the latter if we care at all about the continuous success of Wikipedia?—[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky)]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;([[User talk:Ezhiki|yo?]]); 16:00, September&nbsp;14, 2009 (UTC)
::::The procedural oppose was not an endorsement of Sandstein's action.  It was more a matter of seeking a solution that didn't cause greater problems down the road.  Late last year there was an occasion where the Arbitration Committee modified a ban at my request.  I should have posed the request differently and thought it out better, because when the arbitration sanction expired the fellow's status was left undefined at the community level.  In the long run that caused more headaches; wanted to avoid that sort of headaches here. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|318]]''</sup> 18:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::The thing is, Russavia did not "accept his ban" - s/he threatened to create disruptive sock puppet accounts, s/he posted stuff on his talk page under the heading "topic ban be damned", and generally acted in a way '''that would merit a ban or civility parole by itself''' regardless of what he had done previously. As far as asking for clarification - it is possible to do that in a civil way, without using profanity, threatening admins and insulting people, you know. This may be a "human reaction" (what isn't here?) but it is not "understandable".[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 16:07, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::That he did, but ''then'' he accepted the terms in a much more civil and calm manner, and tried to work within those terms (only to find out that they are not what they seem to be, which would probably add to anyone's frustration at that point).  He's not beyond hope, you know; I can't fathom why some would want to imply that.  His [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Russavia&diff=next&oldid=313191642 request for clarification] was also pretty civil (no profanity, threatening, and insults).  Anyway, that he later realized his tone is unacceptable is better than him not realizing it at all, wouldn't you agree?  Besides, like I proposed above, if folks agree to have me take over the enforcement of this case, I'll make sure that uncivil comments are also covered by the ban definition.  Surely that should take care of all the problems without unnecessarily limiting positive contributions?—[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky)]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;([[User talk:Ezhiki|yo?]]); 16:28, September&nbsp;14, 2009 (UTC)
::::::Ezhiki, I take that this '' I will be more than willing to make sure that for the next six months Russavia does not touch a single article that deals with the history of the Soviet Union and the Baltic states ''and'' remains civil in all his interactions (the last clause is not a part of either the original or a modified topic ban, but since it's a concern voiced by several people in this very thread, it makes sense to include it).'' is what you mean by enforcement of this case. That's fine, except that the topic ban also includes Russia, including present day Russia. Furthermore, remaining civil in all interactions is of course not a part of the original topic ban, as it is already expected of all Wikipedia editors. Rather, I think the appropriate action here would be to put Russavia on civility parole, AFTER his/her topic ban expires (since this is the area where most of the trouble comes from), and until s/he demonstrates that it is no longer needed (or some pre specificed amount of time).[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 16:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Radek, I'm sorry, but you don't seem to have studied the case in all its entirety.  The ''original'' topic-ban terms did ''not'' include "Russia, including present-day Russia".  The original terms included "the ''history'' of the Soviet Union and its successor states (including Russia and the Baltic states)" (emphasis mine).  ''All'' of Russia was added only after Russavia, another admin, and myself repeatedly requested explanations as to what can and cannot be considered "the history of USSR/Russia", got contradictory responses (which we then pointed out to be contradictory).  The scope of the ban was extended based ''solely'' because the enforcing admin was unable, for whatever reason, to coherently explain the terms of the ban as originally imposed and chose to extend it instead.  In my book, that's as unfair a treatment as a treatment can get (but it often seems that I am the only one who has a copy of that particular book).
:::::::Regarding the rest of the suggestions you made above, I leave them for others to comment.  The only reason why I bother to post here at all is '''to make sure Russavia's ban is a) fair; b) clearly defined; and c) limits his positive contributions to the smallest possible extent.'''  As long as that goal is reached, the exact wording/implementation of the topic ban does not matter to me.—[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky)]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;([[User talk:Ezhiki|yo?]]); 16:47, September&nbsp;14, 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Ezhiki, I have indeed studied the case in some detail. The current topic ban does include all of Russia, like I said. Given Russavia's behavior after his initial more limited ban I think this is quite justified. The scope of the ban was extended because of Wikilawyering and '''willful and purposeful violation''' of the limited ban (including a section titled "topic ban be damned"), not because of anything Sandstein did (solely or otherwise) - like I said this extension is quite justified. The ban is both clearly defined (and Russavia can always ask - in a civil manner - for clarification) and fair. Come on, I've seen editors get perma banned for the level of incivility and aggression displayed here - Russavia is being let off easy.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 17:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::Radek, I honestly do not understand why you and several others (including the admin in charge) refer to Russavia's (and other, otherwise uninvolved, people's!) requests for ban term clarifications as "wikilawyering".  If a topic ban were to be imposed on you, would you not want to clarify what is and is not covered, if you had your doubts?  Would you not request clarifications if you received a warning for the edits that you in all honesty believed should not be covered by the ban?  As I demonstrated above, Russavia tried to do just that (here's that [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Russavia&diff=next&oldid=313191642 diff] again), and so did I.  Both of our inquiries were ignored; instead, the ban terms were extended...  for wikilawyering???  ''Only then'' did Russavia said "topic ban be damned"&mdash;but that's frustration and puzzlement talking, not a genuine intent to break the rules.  I don't know in how many more ways I can explain this over and over again, but I'll try: the modified ban (the one that includes all of Russia) is indeed "well-defined", but it is neither fair nor allows Russavia to edit the articles in areas where he's never even remotely been disruptive.  There is no useful purpose for banning Russavia from articles where his contributions were nothing but positive.  Apart from Russavia's sporadic angry outbursts in response to what he (and me, and others) perceived to be unfair treatment (outbursts which he himself later retracted and regretted), there is no reason to extend the topic ban coverage to "all Russia".  What say you? :)—[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky)]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;([[User talk:Ezhiki|yo?]]); 17:18, September&nbsp;14, 2009 (UTC)
*What are you talking about? Both notices by Sandstein were exactly the same. In his ''first'' notice Sandstein topic-banned Russavia "''from all edits or pages related to the history of the Soviet Union and its successor states (including Russia and the Baltic states)''", [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Russavia&diff=312584256&oldid=312561859 see the diff]. Then he was asked by Russavia and Ezhiki to explain meaning of his word "history" in the context of the ban (that's a difficult question: no one has an idea if the "history" starts today). After tense negotiations at the talk page of Russavia, Sandstein issued his second notice that was ''precisely'' the same, but without word "history", [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Russavia&diff=313195785&oldid=313194086 see the diff]. [[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys|talk]]) 18:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
**Well, since it did not include the word "history", it cannot be ''precisely'' the same, right?  I don't know about you, but I find it patently obvious that the removal of that one little word has very important ramifications as to what can and cannot be edited under the topic ban.  Besides, if from the very start Sandstein ''really'' meant "all Russia/USSR" and not just their "history" (something, I should add, he refused to clarify by completely ignoring questions directly addressed at him), then why, according to his attempts at explanations on the onset of the conflict did he make it explicitly clear that articles about all "current politicians" (but for some reason not Dmitry Medvedev) are [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Russavia&diff=313191642&oldid=313191315 OK to edit]?  Something doesn't tally here...
**Anyway, as promised, I would repeat myself once again: let's make sure that the topic ban imposed on Russivia is a) fair; b) clearly defined; and c) limits his positive contributions to the smallest possible extent.  I also renew my offer to handle the ban myself, unless some other administrator is willing to step up and replace Sandstein in a role he himself admitted he is tired of.—[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky)]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;([[User talk:Ezhiki|yo?]]); 18:51, September&nbsp;14, 2009 (UTC)
***I stated above my personal opinion how the ban could be modified: Russavia should not edit any articles edited by people who he called himself his "enemies", and there are indeed very few articles he should not edit. Unfortunately, this or any other alternative proposals were not supported by other administrators during this discussion (see above). I am afraid this should be now refiled to AE or Arbcom to modify the remedy if they decide so.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys|talk]]) 19:02, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Ezhiki, first, let's be clear that the ban as it currently stands concerns articles concerning Soviet/Baltic/Russian history and all Russia related articles. Second, given Russavia's behavior your "a) fair" and "b) clearly defined" are already taken care of here. So that leaves "c) limits his positive contributions to the smallest possible extent". In most circumstances I would be sympathetic to that argument because I realize that the fact that people OCCASIONALLY screw up in one way does not mean they have nothing good to contribute in other respects. However, in this particular case there are three very strong arguments against this kind of "clemency":
* Russavia's block log [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3ARussavia] - this isn't the first time this kind of thing has happened. S/he should've learned her/his lesson earlier and acted accordingly. The fact that s/he is going to be unable to continue with her/his "positive contributions" is entirely her/his fault.
* Russavia's response - like I said before, the stuff s/he wrote after the ban was imposed is by itself enough to warrant an indefinite all around ban. Had s/he been civil about it'd be a different matter.
* Precedent - limiting and/or rescinding the ban would basically constitute a reward for extremely uncivil behavior, abusing administrators, making threats and profanity. This would encourage future users who find themselves restricted to engage in similar disruptive antics, greatly hurting the Wiki project as a whole (not to mention it would implicitly punish those editors who try to follow the rules for actually following the rules).

Basically, the case that you are making now should have been made 1) by Russavia and 2) in place of the threats and uncivil remarks that s/he actually made, right after the ban was imposed.

I understand that at some point Russavia asked if s/he could post the articles which were already in her/his user page. If there is a clear understanding that this would constitute a one time, exception to the six month topic ban on all Russian/Soviet/Baltic articles and all Russia related articles, and if there is clear evidence that the user is willing to change his/her behavior by agreeing to a civility parole, then I think that singular exception could be made.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 23:52, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

=== Thank you Ezhiki ===
Thank you Ezhiki for offering to police any revised ban, which you suggest follow a ban of editing any articles relating to the history of the Soviet Union with the Baltic States (and Russia with the same states). I would understand this to mean that I would still be able to edit any articles relating to the history of Russia, so long as it does not involve articles relating to Russia's history/interactions with the Baltic States? If the ban is amended as such, I give my word that I will not involve myself with such articles, and will remain civil. This does not mean that I won't push editors to abide by [[WP:V]] and other policies, but I will watch how I handle it. Additionally, in case anyone has missed my previous acknowledgements (on at least half a dozen or more occasions), '''I take responsibility for all of my edits on WP, and I expect others to do likewise.''' Such a ban will allow me to edit in other areas where my contributions are positive. A couple of questions I do have though. If the ban is amended to what you have offered to impose and police...

* At [[User:Russavia/Australia–Russia_relations#1963.E2.80.931991]] there is information relating to the recognition of the de jure incorporation of the Baltic states into the Soviet Union. When I place this into mainspace, would I have to remove this section, and have another editor place it? 
* Editors may or may not know, but I have been heavily involved in categorisation of Russian articles. One category I have been responsible for creating, and also maintenance of is [[:Category:Bilateral relations of Russia]]. This involves not only creating categories, but also searching WP, and using Alex Bakharev's bot, in order to find articles which can be placed in such categories. If I were to come across an article, which should be placed in [[:Category:Estonia–Russia relations]], how would I go about it? Obviously, I would be unable to edit the article myself for the duration of the ban, but would I post a request on the article talk page? Elsewhere? 
* Would the ban stop me from editing or creating articles on Russian diplomats who may have been born in any of the Baltic SSRs, or whilst they were under the rule of the Russian Empire?

If you could provide answers for this, I would be appreciative, as it would go a long way to my understanding any fair ban which is imposed. --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 08:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:There is still no reason what so ever for this ban to be amended. The only plausible argument is to allow this user to keep making positive contributions and restrict negative ones. However, there's no guarantee that this user, given his/her behavior in the past, as documented by the block log and on his/her own talk page, will not abuse this concession. Furthermore, amending the ban would be a reword for extremely bad behavior (threatening to create sock puppets, willfully breaking the ban, using offensive language and expletives towards other users and admins, general incivility) thus setting very dangerous precedent on Wikipedia for the future - bad behavior gets rewarded, good behavior gets punished.

:I can see letting this user post the articles already in his/her userpage, but that's about it.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 15:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::Of course there is no reason, as you see me as a content opponent...this much is clear. Unfortunately, due to the ban, I am not able to provide evidence of this...[[Moscow Trials|Stalinist]] [[show trials]] or what, eh? Also, please do not bring up issues relating to articles covered by my ban, as it is not fair for me to be subjected to such attacks, without a right of reply. What is being discussed is the unfair extension of the ban to cover ALL Russian topics due to Sandstein refusing or being unable or just not caring to answer questions in relation to the ban and being too "tired" to do so...questions such as those which have been asked below which are required in order to clarify his unfair extended ban. As you are clearly involved in disputes in this area, your opinion surely needs to be considered as such...that is...an opportunity to get rid of a content opponent...what is more valued is that of uninvolved editors and admins, who are willing to look at my overall contributions, rather than selected articles, and they will be able to see that whilst there has been some disruption in topics relating to the Soviet Union and the Baltic states (that being, their interactions, etc), over the REST OF RUSSIAN related articles, my edits can be seen as nothing but positive for the very most part, and that banning me from editing those subjects serves zero purpose, either for myself or for the project as a whole. To do so is nothing short of vindictive, and is akin to putting me in jail for six months on the pretext of me being capable of committing murder. It is, therefore, these people's whose opinions who are really required; the uninvolved editor and admin, who is able to cut through all the shit and see what is what, and most importantly, what is fair. --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 15:51, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::: Russavia, I am doing my darndest to avoid the appearance of "taking sides", as my goal is always "fairness".  I don't want to be seen as "involved" either way.  However, as an outside observer looking in, I would have to say that the continuous assumptions of bad faith, veiled attacks, and paragraphs of wikilawyering are doing less to help the entire situation.  If you want a fully-fleshed list of what you can and cannot do, ArbCom would be happy to help :-) .  Really, back away, take a few small lumps, stick by it, keep yours (and everybody's) nose clean, and keep being productive - this too shall pass if you let it. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 16:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

=== Questions for Sandstein ===

Sandstein, as you are the admin who has imposed the all encompassing ban covered anything to do with Russia or Russians, can you please provide some clarification for me.

* In [[Hugo Chavez]] is my adding [[:File:Dmitry Medvedev and Hugo Chavez 10 September 2009-6.jpg]] to the article in violation of the ban? This goes with all other non-Russian articles which are sorely lacking photos, for which we are able to utilise the Kremlin databases, [[:File:Kremlin_authorisation-English.pdf|due to my efforts in getting the necessary permissions]]. Should we not be ensuring that articles are adequately illustrated.
* In [[Hugo Chavez]] is my adding information on his 11 visits to Russia, 3 in the last 12 months, and why he has done so, in violation of the ban?
* In [[Hugo Chavez]], [[Daniel Ortega]] or [[Evo Morales]], is my adding a photo of these three leaders with Dmitry Medvedev, and providing of information as to why the meeting was held, etc, etc in violation of the ban?
* A similar question as I asked of Ezhiki. I have been heavily involved in categorisation of Russian articles. If I come across an article which I believe needs some more categorisation which involves Russia, how do I raise attention to it? After all, should we not be ensuring that articles are categorised for ease for our readers in finding articles relating to a particular topic?
* To what extent am I able to remove [[WP:BLP]] violations of Russia-related articles. If one reads [[WP:BLP]], it states, '''Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable—should be ''removed immediately and without waiting for discussion''.''' The ban as placed by yourself, negates my ability to adhere to one of these most important and core policies on WP, as far as I can tell

Look forward to your clarifications. --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 08:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:These all relate to Russia and fall under the scope of your topic ban, until such time as you convince another uninvolved admin that your topic ban may be safely reduced in scope (see my comment above). Please direct any additional ''necessary'' questions to my talk page, as I may not continue to read this thread. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 16:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::'''Then you damn well should continue to read this page'''. You are the Admin who has caused this, and this is the public place where it is being discussed. If you wish to arrogantly only handle public matters in your "home office" then abdicate your responsibilities and stay at home. [[User:GiacomoReturned|Giano]] ([[User talk:GiacomoReturned|talk]]) 16:59, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::I don't think that insulting Sandstein is the best way to have him continue to read the thread.  Cheers.  [[User:Lifebaka|<i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i>]][[User talk:Lifebaka|'''++''']] 18:53, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::Insulting? Wise up or shut up - no one has been insulted. The thread is of Sandstein's making, he can either delegate this elsehwere or see it through. If the heat in the kitchen is.... need I continue? [[User:GiacomoReturned|Giano]] ([[User talk:GiacomoReturned|talk]]) 21:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::He has delegated it elsewhere: to [[WP:AE]] or to any uninvolved administrator who commits to following up afterward.  It might be advisable under these circumstances to foster transition with a collegial atmosphere.  If Sandstein's handling has been unsatisfactory, then surely the best way to remedy the situation is by encouraging an environment where someone else would be willing to replace him. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|319]]''</sup> 22:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Can somebody remind me where and when did Giano gain an immunity from CIV? I know he has it, I am just curious what needs to be done to do so. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 01:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::: There's an editor I haven't seen in these parts for quite a while. Time has not improved collegiality (my perception only, of course). [[User:Vecrumba|<span style="color:#a12830; font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;">V<small>ЄСRUМВА</small></span>]] [[User_talk:Vecrumba|<span style="color:#ffffff; background-color:#a12830;">&nbsp;♪&nbsp;</span>]] 02:45, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Sandstein, I realise that you are now busy pushing for the implementation of [[Wikipedia:Discretionary sanctions]] - I suggest editors check it out, which is essentially a proposed policy which would enable admins to blanket ban any editor from any topic area without the need for arbitration or the like - but do you realise that the answer to my question is potentially leaving the Foundation open to lawsuits? I suggest that you read [[WP:BLP]] very carefully. I have removed unsourced, libellous materials from the articles of many Russian people on so many occasions that I have lost count, including accusations that they are criminals, murderers, "guilty" of this or that. But hey, given what you are saying, and given that according to you I am not allowed to remove, discuss, advise or anything else relating to libellous materials on WP, I will in future attempt to contact the subjects of said articles directly, and advise them of the violations and urge them to sue the Foundation for allowing libellous to remain on the project, and will provide them with a link to your answer above which bans me from touching, discussing or advising of the libellous materials about any such subjects. This is not a legal threat, before anyone accuses me of this, but according to Sandstein, this is the only option that I have, and it is an option that one has to consider. But, I won't do that, I will let basic common sense prevail. I will resolve myself to ignoring your interpretation of the ban as it stands right now, and I will remove any potentially libellous information '''on sight''', and in cases of borderline material which may breach [[WP:BLP]], I will raise it at the appropriate place.

The same goes for [[WP:COPYVIO]]. Again, you are mandating leaving the Foundation open to lawsuits? For example, in looking at my watchlist, I have come across an article which contains a blatant copyright infringement of a New York Times article. But due to your interpretation, I am not allowed to remove the infringement, I am not allowed to alert anyone to the infringement and I am not allowed to discuss the infringement. So what am I to do? Contact the New York Times and have them add it to a list of things which they can sue the foundation for?

If anyone is interested, the article in question...[[Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in South Ossetia]] in the lead states:

"South Ossetia's president Eduard Kokoity has publicly acknowledged in his words '''that he and the forces under his command or with whom he is working are engaging in what can only be called ethnic cleansing''' of Georgian people in South Ossetia."

which is of course a blatant copyvio of [http://topics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/ethnic-cleansing-in-south-ossetia/] which states:

"Kokoity’s words are a rare public acknowledgment by an official '''that he and the forces under his command or with whom he is working are engaging in what can only be called ethnic cleansing''', a form of genocide."

So tell me, is that going to have me indef banned? How to handle it? 1) I remove the copyvio myself and be banned for editing the article? 2) I raise the issue on the talk page, and then get indef banned for breaching the ban 3) I raise the issue on the talk page, and then get indef banned for breaching the ban 4) Someone else remove it, and then I get indef banned for breaching the ban by mentioning the article here? 5) We simply stick our collective heads in the sand, ignore the issue altogether, and then await the lawsuit from the NYT?

I think it is plainly obvious that you have not thought about your words above (which adds to the all encompassing ban itself), so I would suggest that you refactor your answers. Or indef ban me accordingly, because if that copyvio remains in the article within 24 hours, I will remove it myself.

Again, you will unlikely see all of this as wikilawyering. Thats your perogative. Just as its my perogative to see your answers and intepretations as irrational, and potentially more damaging to WP as a project, especially as this the type of thing that I often do on a daily basis on WP. --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 17:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:Your statement above, "I will in future ... urge them to sue the Foundation" ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=314382412]), is a [[WP:NLT|legal threat]] against the [[Wikimedia Foundation]], as well as the announcement of an intent to disrupt the project. Please unambiguously withdraw it with your next edit, or you may be indefinitely blocked. A copy of this message is left at your talk page.
:As to the substantive question, there might be ways to phrase problem reports to the appropriate noticeboards in such a way as not to violate a topic ban. But I believe, judging from your conduct in this matter, that you would be likely to misuse any leeway in this regard as an opportunity to circumvent the ban by rephrasing content disagreements in terms of problem reports, or to wikilawyer endlessly about what kind of reports you are allowed to make. You are therefore advised to leave any problem reporting in the area of your topic ban to others. Fortunately, the continued operation of Wikipedia does not depend on any one editor. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 20:45, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::See, this is the problem that I have experienced with you from the outset of this problem Sandstein, in that you don't read what is written, but rather jump the gun entirely, ignoring what is written, accusing of issuing threats, wikilawyering and a host of other things. Read what I wrote in its entireity. I wrote explicitly, '''This is not a legal threat, before anyone accuses me of this, but according to Sandstein, this is the only option that I have, and it is an option that one has to consider. ''But, I won't do that, I will let basic common sense prevail''.''' It was right there in the diff that you just posted, how could you not see it? Like I said, I will let common sense prevail, and I will remove libellous information on sight, from any article, no matter what subject it may be in, and whether that article is covered by any ban or not, as interpreted by yourself. I suggest you read [[WP:BLP]] some time. And I will report potentially libellous material to the BLP noticeboard. And you are right, the continued operation of Wikipedia does not depend on any one editor; but libel laws in the US, which [[WP:BLP]] has to adhere to, are such that if the subject whom the libel is directed towards is able to prove that information has been published and seen by an audience, they may have a pretty good case...the nature of WP makes this quite easy to prove...and my removing material which breaches [[WP:BLP]] is not a hindrance to the project, but rather a help...do you really think I am a vindictive prick that I would bring trouble to a project that I have dedicated a lot of my time to? And probably unknown to you, that I am still contributing to in my normal area of editing. I have removed BLP material from articles in the past that has been present for over 12 months or more, so one should be thankful for me removing such information, instead of letting it sit there and possibly leave the door open for problems. This is how I have always operated, and I will continue to operate. In fact Sandstein, my last question which was asked above was asked on purpose, just for me to see what your response would be, and whether you have actually thought things thru before answering. It is obvious you have not, particularly as you completely missed what I wrote above in my initial post. As to misjudging anything I may or may not do, I really don't have much faith in your judgement, when it is obvious you have no idea on how I approach such things, unless you can provide some diffs to back up your bad faith personal attack, where I have used issues such as reporting a BLP violation as a way of attacking others. Or wait, I can show you an article where I was getting attacked by both sides (at one stage) -- [[Talk:Valeriya Novodvorskaya]] - so just how do I deal with BLP violations again? Therefore, I see no reason to retract anything, as you have totally misread (or not read) and misunderstood what I wrote, that's not my fault now is it? Nor is it the first time this has occurred with yourself. --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 21:50, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::I will refrain from replying to this, but will let other admins decide whether [[WP:NLT]] action remains warranted here, in the hope thereby to contribute to end this ridiculous drama. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 22:13, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Yup. Sorry to end all the fun, folks, but I have now seen more than enough. I have indefinitely banned Russavia and made the following comment on his talk page: [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARussavia&diff=314433454&oldid=314433393]. When people repeatedly act like jerks, we show them the door, regardless of their past history of "good work". [[User:Good Olfactory|Good Ol’factory]] <sup>[[User talk:Good Olfactory|(talk)]]</sup> 22:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

===Arbitrary break===
I avoided posting anything here for the past day or so in hopes someone would comment on the substance of the case.  Unfortunately, we admins just can't keep focus on the issue without straying from the course to pursue something unrelated and more fun (like Giano-bashing; a perennial favorite).

Still, a few comments were made which I just can't leave unaddressed.  The most important thing is that for some reason you folks think that if Russavia's topic-ban is amended, it would somehow constitute a "reward" for his bad behavior.  That is one part I don't understand.  Russavia "bad behavior" is already being addressed by imposing a topic ban on him.  In whatever form that ban is ultimately defined, it's punishment enough.  The behavior was contained to a range of very specific and easily definable topics.  Banning Russavia from editing those topics constitutes punishment which is both adequate and commensurate with the deviation from the acceptable behavioral norm.  However, banning Russavia from anything ''other'' than those topics makes no sense whatsoever, no matter how you look at it.  OK, he feels strongly about the issues surrounding the Baltic states or whatnot.  Fine, we limit him so he doesn't edit that for the next six months.  But why oh why do we limit him from ''all'' articles dealing with Russia, articles to most of which he contributed nothing but high-quality material and in which he had never been disruptive?  Because of the far-fetched scenario that he ''might'' start being disruptive there?  Because of the few snappy remarks he made in the process?  Our own policies specifically say that our disciplinary measures are "used to prevent damage or disruption to Wikipedia, not to punish users".  And while they can sometimes be used as a deterrent as well, what are we deterring Russavia from by prohibiting him editing of articles on, say, Russian aviation?  Russian diplomatic relations?  It seems not so much as a valid preventive measure as it is our petty anger over his frustrated responses to the admin imposing the block.  To be concise, '''what problem does blocking Russiavia from editing articles on ''anything'' related to Russia solve exactly?'''  Why do our admins find it more beneficial to deprive Wikipedia of great contributions rather than give Russavia a chance to improve?  He can't improve if he can't edit a single page that he can help with!  How hard is it to impose additional disciplinary measure should Russavia for whatever reason go beserk in ''other'' articles related to Russia but not to the areas of contention covered by the original topic ban?—[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky)]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;([[User talk:Ezhiki|yo?]]); 19:09, September&nbsp;16, 2009 (UTC)

:The topic ban is absolutely not punishment, it is protective of the encyclopedia and its community. The arbitration committee came to the rather obvious conclusion that nationalist and other real-world disputes make a hash of our articles in a number of hot-button topic areas, including those relating to Eastern Europe. As a result, it has granted administrators the authority to topic ban editors whose behavior is disruptive; the decision does not require a definitive finding that every single edit made by a topic-banned editor is disruptive. The remedy also does not require Sandstein to set out each individual page, or every specific type of edit, which is prohibited. That would be inimical to the object of the remedy, which is to provide a tool to administrators to reduce disruption in the affected topic area. 

:The decision does require that appeals of the topic ban (and that is what this is, despite attempts to couch it as a review of Sandstein's behavior - his behavior in this case is essentially limited to imposing the ban, and reviewing it is tantamount to reviewing the ban) be heard at [[WP:AE]] or submitted to the arbitration committee itself. It also asks that administrators reviewing discretionary sanctions seek consensus to overturn them. What Russavia is arguing against is the essential nature of a topic ban - that the opportunity for making positive edits is exchanged for the benefit realized by excluding a particular editor from the topic area. In the absence of disruptive behavior, no such exchange would be necessary.  A paean to opportunities lost should acknowledge that they are in fact opportunities thrown away. [[User:Nathan|<strong style="color:#0033CC">Nathan</strong>]][[User talk:Nathan|<sup><strong style="color:#0033CC">  T  </strong></sup>]] 19:45, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::''The topic ban... is protective of the encyclopedia and its community'''&mdash;but that's my point exactly!  By imposing the topic ban, we protect the encyclopedia and its community from the Russavia's actions which have been deemed disruptive by limiting his edits in areas where he was deemed to be disruptive.  By imposing a topic ban which is way too broad, we still, of course, accomplish that goal, but we also deprive the community of his positive contributions in areas where he's ''never'' been disruptive.  This thread does not seek to "set out each individual page, or every specific type of edit" Russavia can make.  On the contrary, I am trying to argue that it is still possible to define fairly generic topic-ban terms which, unlike the terms including "all Russia", would still be effective and easy to enforce.  I've been hesitant to post a proposed new definition because we need to address the core issue first, but I'd be more than willing to submit one if it helps move things on.
::Moving this thread to AE is a valid procedural concern, but if you review the material above, you'll see that not everyone who commented here shares it.  It is perfectly possible to "modify" the ban (which basically boils down to asking Sandstein to please retract his overly broad decision to extend the ban coverage and to his handling the whole thing to another admin, which is something he seems to be perfectly willing to do).  Between enduring the ArbComm bureaucracy and one admin possibly amending his own judgment, which do you believe is a simpler solution?  Another purpose of this thread is to "seek consensus"&mdash;also something you specifically mention.  If you tally the opinions voiced so far, there's hardly a consensus just yet.
::In conclusion, regarding Russavia allegedly "arguing against the essential nature of a topic ban", that's not at all the case.  He is not arguing to allow him to edit the articles in which he was deemed to be disruptive; he is arguing to allow him to edit the articles in which he's ''never'' been disruptive.  It's not that difficult to separate the two areas without having to ban him from editing anything and everything that mentions "Russia".  If his disruption is so unbearable, why do we even bother with the topic ban?  Why not just block the guy for six months?  Surely that'll protect the community just fine!  That, somehow, strikes people as too broad, but the topic-ban dealing with "all Russia" isn't?  I just don't get the logic.—[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky)]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;([[User talk:Ezhiki|yo?]]); 20:47, September&nbsp;16, 2009 (UTC)

:::You write ''"This thread does not seek to "set out each individual page, or every specific type of edit" Russavia can make."'' and I concede that this may not be ''your'' intention. Even so, it is a valid characterisation of Russavia's comments - a number of people have used the term "wikilawyering" to describe his criticism and comments on Sandstein's topic ban, and I find the descriptions apt and of a piece with his past history. (I apologise if I am getting Russavia's gender wrong here). In this context, I take the term as wikispeak for Russavia's searching for loopholes by demanding that exacting detail be used in defining the topic ban. You've argued above that its unfair that Sandstein extended the ban when its terms were questioned; I think an alternate and more likely explanation is that the terms were broadened so that they could be more simply enforced, when it became clear that Russavia was searching for ways to minimize the scope of the ban as initially set down.  

:::If you disagree, then you're free to propose an alternative text. Sandstein commented on his talkpage that he would agree to another (uninvolved) administrator taking over enforcement of an alternate topic ban; you may not be able to enforce the ban yourself, but certainly you could propose language you believe is better and find a single administrator to agree to monitor the ban? I would submit, though, that Sandstein has a great deal more experience in this area than most administrators, and we frequently rely on that experience at arbitration enforcement - where Sandstein is the most active administrator at the moment. If he believes a less general ban will not address the concerns with Russavia's conduct, or will ultimately lead to a greater chance of escalating enforcement actions, then I'm not inclined to favor your judgment on the issue over his. [[User:Nathan|<strong style="color:#0033CC">Nathan</strong>]][[User talk:Nathan|<sup><strong style="color:#0033CC">  T  </strong></sup>]] 21:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: Well, I am affraid I am an involved admin as I have a history of contribution to the field by my own. On the other hand, I (unlike Sandstein) have my information firsthand and was not spoon-fed by a selected info from an interested group. Russavia contributed a lot of uncontroversially postive staff into the fields of Russian and Soviet aviation, Diplomatic relations of Russia, etc. I am not aware of uncontroversially negative contributions of him. On the other hand his contributions related to [[Russian apartment bombings]], [[Alexander Litvinenko]] - related articles, as well as Russian-Baltic and Russian-Georgia-South Ossetia-Abkhazia relations are often controversial. His discussions on the talk pages are often useful but sometimes too verbose  and hardly civil (although I do not remember personal attacks of RuSSavia and Flying Pig levels as used by his opponents). I would think that the above info makes the choice of the restrictions clear:  '''Russavia is banned from the articles related to Baltics and Georgia as well as articles related to [[Russian apartment bombings]] and [[Alexander Litvinenko]]. He is allowed to briefly point out the problem in the articles on the talk pages and Wikipedia boards, but warned to be brief, civil and to the point.''' [[User:Alex Bakharev|Alex Bakharev]] ([[User talk:Alex Bakharev|talk]]) 05:45, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

::::: Russavia got banned because of his own actions, including those that occurred after the initial topic ban was put in place. There was no organized campaign to "get him" (or her). No one canvassed editors or administrators to speak out against him/her. No one encouraged him/her to engage in personal attacks on editors and administrators, be extremely uncivil, make threats and use profanity - s/he did all that all on his/her own. There was no "spoon-feeding" of "selected info" to Sandstein, and there was no off wiki contact with Sandstein over this matter. He acted completely independently. There is nothing here that would warrant any change to Russavia's ban.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 17:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I feel entitled to make a statement here because the current issues are one of the reasons why I'm on a long wikibreak. I thought I could one day become active again, but only if certain users would either completely change their pattern of editing or would leave, forced or not. -------- The incident for which [[User:Russavia]] has been banned, threatening to 'fight a user to death' was very characteristic of him and I've seen him say similar stuff last year as well, usually meaning that he would argue with you for days unless you'd gave up on a certain subject.  To understand how disruptive this was is to analyse all his edits in general. Russavia was one of the most active wikipedians, with a record edit-count that made us in the past wonder if he was one person. After a test it turned out he was, and his levels of activity was considered to be a private matter. His edits were almost exclusively related to Russia including all its controversial subjects. And like several other users, almost all of his edits were broadly related to defending, counterattacking, promoting or glorifying Russia, Russian history, current Russian leaders or Russian politics. To have you understand how active I mean with 'very active' I counted the amount of hours Russavia had been making edits in the week before getting banned from September 1 to September 7 which was '''a total of 55 hours''' (a lot more than a full time job)!! This amount of activity was pretty much constant for the past two years, and possibly at times even greater. -------- The reason why I believe this is relevant is because it meant that any person who would edit Russia related articles in a critical sense would have to deal with Russavia. And with dealing with Russavia that meant a lot of edit warring, revert warring, agression, and reading giant walls of text over even the smallest issues. You’d better give up on an article / issue unless you wanted to work the same amount of hours as Russavia to counter them, which for most people was impossible! In light of that, the comment 'I will fight you to death on this' is far worse than what uninvolved people will initially think. Now it has come to the point where a lot of users and two admins immediately showed up in his defense. As they admitted themselves they weren’t uninvolved admins, both with a Russian background and both who had regular contact with Russavia before the ban. [[User:Ezhiki]] and Russavia worked together occasionally, and I feel that it’s worth noting that [[User:Alex Bakharev|Alex Bakharev]] had a history trying to stop the banning of several Russian nationalist users who have now been banned. Furthermore the users who were close to Russavia and came to his aid here, never had to deal with Russavia themselves in the way a person editing critical material on Russian related articles had to. -------- So as it turned out there is some kind of mailing list. I’m not sure if this list started before I left the project, but I had never heard of it. I’d just like to say that the contacts between users frustrated with several Russian nationalist users should be considered in its own context. Russian nationalist users had teamed up a lot in the past too. Yet if it’s really true that there were targeted campaigns against several users it should have consequences. However it should certainly not justify the behavior of users like Russavia who might now want to see their banning revoked. IF there was truly a campaign of targeting certain users, this should have been easy to establish through wiki history alone, and the targeted users could have easily made a case out of it instead of becoming disruptive themselves. I find it suspicious that these private archives came out right after Russavia was banned. I also don’t believe the accusations by Alex_Bakharev that the e-mails were exclusively dedicated to Russavia. One of the reasons is that I spoke to [[User:Biophys]] in private once before becoming inactive, and I’m confident he’s nothing like that. -------- In short I’d just like to say that, if Eastern-Europe related subjects should ever become well worked out subjects on Wikipedia, nobody here should be unbanned (including Russavia) and any type of mailing list should be forbidden. The last bit should be carefully looked at by arbcom. [[User:Grey Fox-9589|Grey Fox]] ([[User talk:Grey Fox-9589|talk]]) 23:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:Sorry if this topic was supposed to go inactive, in that case any admin may delete my comment. [[User:Grey Fox-9589|Grey Fox]] ([[User talk:Grey Fox-9589|talk]]) 23:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Concentrated stalking and attacks against Russavia ==

{{Collapse top|Archived per Cool Hand Luke|bg=#FFF|padding=10px}}

Yesterday a member of a closed e-mail list named "Wikipediametric" forwarded me their archive asking me to do something about it. Out of the 3000+ emails more than a half is filled with discussion how "to get" and "attack" Russavia. Among the suggested methods were stalking Russavia edits, carefully crafted edit warring (making sure that no member of the group would make more than one or two reverts), low level personal attacks designed to engineer civility blocks for Russavia's responses, block shopping, attempts to out Russavia. "Friends of Russavia", particular [[User:PasswordUsername]], [[User:Offliner]], [[User:YMB29]] as well as [[User:Anonimu]] were also under similar attack. The group was also discussing ways to plant their own checkusers, methods of creating sockpuppets untraceable by checkusering, etc. So far I have not found a single discussion or even kudos for creating noncontroversial wiki content but long series of joy on every block for the people listed as their enemies, particular Russavia. They specifically discussed how to nurture special relations with Sandstein and use them to block their enemies. Among the most active members are [[User:Digwuren]], [[User:Biophys]], [[User:Piotrus]], [[User:Molobo]], [[User:Radeksz]]. The emails are almost certainly genuine.  It looks like for at list half a year Russavia was a target of constant coordinated attacks by a group of active wikipedians quite skillful in the art of achieving victory by banning their opponents. I am not sure he was aware of this particular group but the editing history of articles touched by Russavia is quite telling by itself. I do not think it is in the project best interest to let them succeed.

I am not sure what to do about this archive. I will forward it to the Arbcom and I could provide it to any administrator I trust. I would not give it to nonadmins (including Russavia himself) or anybody else (unless the authors give me permissions) as it contain a significant amount of personal information that might be abused. [[User:Alex Bakharev|Alex Bakharev]] ([[User talk:Alex Bakharev|talk]]) 05:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:Sounds fun. For the record: a discussion group of that name exists and I am a member of it, but Russavia was not that often discussed, and when he was, while we are no fans of him, we hardly discussed some campaigning against him (caveat: I have little interest in Russavia and I wasn't reading ALL of the emails about him - I am simply not interested in him that much). I do however sense another reputation damage campaign in the making. Sigh. Last time it was about whether an editor has the right to collect evidence for dispute resolution, this time I guess we will be discussing whether the editor has the right to discuss other editors and wikipolitics off-wiki. PS. Alex - you really had the time to read 1,500 emails? I find it hard to believe. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 06:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:Well, the last time there was a big email bust (real or fake), some of the people involved completely lost their nerve and started telling stacks of different stories to different people and completely polluted and it turned into a stampede. The same could happen here I guess. '''[[User:YellowMonkey|<span style="color:GoldenRod;">YellowMonkey</span>]]'''  (''[[User_talk:YellowMonkey|<span style="color:#FA8605;">bananabucket</span>]]'') 05:38, 17 September 2009 (UTC)  
:I would think asking the ArbCom to do an in-camera arbitration would be the best option in this circumstance. In any circumstance, this is gonna involve ArbCom at some point or another; this sounds like heavy-duty harassment. -<font color="32CD32">''[[User:Jéské Couriano|Jeremy]]''</font> <font color="4682B4"><sup>([[User talk:Jéské Couriano|v^_^v]] [[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Tear him for his bad verses!]])</sup></font> 05:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::There's also a possibility like in a previous case, that the involved parties escalated their manoevres for the arbcase and then the arbcom got fed up with the evidence and the result was a lot of sabre rattling for a deeper pit. '''[[User:YellowMonkey|<span style="color:GoldenRod;">YellowMonkey</span>]]'''  (''[[User_talk:YellowMonkey|<span style="color:#FA8605;">bananabucket</span>]]'') 05:38, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 	
:Yes, I strongly urge you to forward a copy to {{NonSpamEmail|arbcom-l|lists.wikimedia.org}}, <s>also I wouldn't mind seeing a copy of this myself at {{NonSpamEmail|mattbisanz|yahoo.com}} (yes I am an admin, otrs, crat, identified, whatever)</s>. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 05:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::It's been dumped on the internet for all to see, apparently. '''[[User:YellowMonkey|<span style="color:GoldenRod;">YellowMonkey</span>]]'''  (''[[User_talk:YellowMonkey|<span style="color:#FA8605;">bananabucket</span>]]'') 05:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::That does bring up the good point that anyone who has a copy needs to remember [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Durova#Removal_of_private_correspondence|private correspondence rules]] and not post it onwiki. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 05:45, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Lovely. That list contains a ton of private information, including real life names and related details of editors who want to remain anonymous on Wiki, including some that were wiki stalked and such. I very much doubt that any member of that discussion group would commit such a faux pas, it seems to me that the group archive was hacked. I hope that the ArbCom reviews this issue quickly and whoever leaked the private info on multiple editors out gets his due. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 06:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

*Thank you, Alex. The Arbitration Committee has also been made aware of this list; if you could send the copy you received to the Committee, we can compare it to the one we received.  I would discourage anyone from sharing this information; the more it is passed around, the greater the likelihood that it will become corrupted in some form. If anyone has other information that may also be of value for the Arbitration Committee to review, please feel free to send it as well.  [[User:Risker|Risker]] ([[User talk:Risker|talk]]) 05:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:*Comment struck.  Incidentally, I had previously forwarded an email that would be in the arb-l archive for July 4th, 2009, that now makes sense in light of Alex's comments, that the Committee might want to look at. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 06:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

::I have posted the message I received to the arbcom(I) list. [[User:Alex Bakharev|Alex Bakharev]] ([[User talk:Alex Bakharev|talk]]) 06:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::Your mail to 'arbcom-l' with the subject

::   Wikipediametrics info

::Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.

::The reason it is being held:

::   Post by non-member to a members-only list

:::Actually, since I have NOT given anyone the permission to look through '''my personal emails''' I think that even forwarding this message (which presumably includes a link to where my personal information can be accessed) to arb com members (who are after all, people, whom I did not give permission to look through my personal email), and especially another list (and I'm starting to find out these list things aren't all that secure, even if you think they are) is inappropriate. I guess it's done now, but please do not disseminate or spread the link to this potentially false and definitely private information further. Thank you.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 09:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

*Wow, that is a stunning development. I've been watching this thread from its inception, as I recollect, it was Good Ol’factory that actually ended up banning Russavia for Wikilawyering after Sandstein gave him fair warning. Seems to me that Russavia dug his own hole, regardless of what this alleged list claims to have perpetrated. --[[Special:Contributions/149.135.66.235|149.135.66.235]] ([[User talk:149.135.66.235|talk]]) 06:17, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I confirm that I too was sent access to this material; I too find it highly damning at first sight, and I too consider it genuine. I have confronted Piotrus about it (who was contacting me over the related incident of the compromised account of [[User:Tymek]]), and asked him to provide me access to the original list archive, so I can check if the leaked material is genuine. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 06:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:Since I am mentioned above and apparently in the e-mail messages at issue, I believe that I am entitled to know what is going on. Could an admin or arbitrator please forward the material to me if they believe it likely to be genuine? I do not take kindly to any attempts to be used as an instrument in any plots, and may need to check whether any of my recent enforcement actions in this area require reconsideration (though I do not believe that I have been influenced by anybody, and have as far as I know not communicated offwiki with any involved parties). <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 06:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::If people believe this to be true then it could be one of the biggest busts since the [[Festina affair]] in the [[1998 Tour de France]]. All email lists tend to discuss tactics about wooing admins '''[[User:YellowMonkey|<span style="color:GoldenRod;">YellowMonkey</span>]]'''  (''[[User_talk:YellowMonkey|<span style="color:#FA8605;">bananabucket</span>]]'') 06:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm aware of this campaign (although I don't have access to the material discussed here), and I have tried to point it out to admins many times, with no avail. (It seems that admins are generally ''very'' hesitant to look into any disruptive "team" activities such as this.) I can provide diffs about some of the group's activities if necessary, such as provocations, tag teaming, coordinated efforts to protect each other on admins' noticeboards, etc. If the list is genuine, it can be easily confirmed with diffs. Since I'm familiar with most of these editors and their activities, I can provide some diffs if requested. [[User:Offliner|Offliner]] ([[User talk:Offliner|talk]]) 07:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's an amusing tidbit for you all - I just spend few minutes playing with my little email archive. I can easily doctor my email archive to say I (or anybody who send me an email that is still in my archive) wanted to blow up Wikimedia Foundation servers :> And you can't tell the difference, certainly not after I move the emails from one folder to another, and certainly not after I convert archive between Outlook and Mozilla (or at least I cannot see any signs of tampering). So, do I need to draw you a picture about how reliable such an evidence is? Yes, a lot of wikipolitics was discussed, next to nothing violating polices was implemented (it was - and is - a forum to discuss certain aspects of wikipolitics) - but gimme that archive, gimme an hour or two, and I can make us look like anything you want :) Even real life terrorists plotting to kill people or such. And if somebody had enough of an axe to grind to either hack somebody's computer to steal an archive or collected emails over several months with the intention on going public, do you think they would hesitate to adjust their "evidence" to make it more appealing? And since AFAIK there is no official archive of the group, there is no official copy to check what is true and what is not... and if any member was keeping an archive, look at it from the other side - they can just remove any offensive email or edit them as well, so whom do you trust? Just something to keep in mind, before this all descents into a total chaos. I will simply say that somebody is taking an innocent wikipolitics discussion list and trying to damage the reputation of its participants. That's all there is to that story. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 06:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
: As I told you earlier, I have already asked to be given access to the original mailing list to compare the material. If I'm not given this access, I for one will assume that you have stuff to hide, and that the leaked versions are genuine. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 07:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:: For the record, I support you getting access and you should get it soon. The list was invite only, but we are open to inviting others. But the problem is - there is no original archive you can get access to, you can only monitor the recent discussions (in other words: the list is not being archived, like wiki-listserv lists are). Our list caretaker will probably explain this to you in more detail. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 07:11, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there is a Wikipediametrics discussion group, basically a few people discussing Wikipedia policies, matters, editors, helping each other with sources for articles, suggestions and so on. I have not seen the supposed “archive” but Alex’s description of what’s supposed to be going on there is highly inaccurate to say the least. I’m assuming that’s due to the nature of this supposed “archive”.

Yes, Russavia’s behavior was discussed. Yes, some, though not all, people on the list followed the development of the case. Yes, some people on the list made comments along the lines of “Sandstein’s doing the right thing here”. Some people may have even expressed some satisfaction that a disruptive user was banned (myself included). BUT, there was no “discussion how "to get" and "attack" Russavia” nor how to stalk him/her. There was no discussion on “how to nurture special relations with Sandstein”. As it's stated above, Russavia dug his/her own hole with his incivility and personal attack.

I don’t even have a clue as to what “attempts to out Russavia” are supposed to refer to – aside maybe from some folks being skeptical about his/her stated place of residence.

There was no “carefully crafted edit warring”, rather, there were encouragements for people to adopt the 1RR rule, or to leave articles which they had an emotional stake in alone.

There was no “discussing ways to plant their own checkusers, methods of creating sockpuppets untraceable by checkusering”, rather, there were discussions of the kinds of strategies that potential sock puppets might use and how to detect them (this was motivated, IIRC, by increased activity by the Jacob Peters socks)

As far as I know the discussion list doesn't even have an archive. But I did recently post on the list that Future Perfect should be allowed to join, as I see no reason why he couldn’t check things out for himself. I don’t think I, or the people on the list, have anything to hide.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 07:17, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:Well, to be honest, we on occasion made comments that would be inapporiate for Wikipedia. Such as "this user is a troll and should be banned and the reasons this is not done is because admin X is an idiot" :> So yes, if that archive has some real emails in them, there is some amusing reading there - and feathers of some admins (and arbitrators...) will be ruffled. And for understandable reasons people who made such comments would prefer they don't get back to people with admin/arbcom power who can try to get them banned out of spite (and such discussions on whether certain admins judgment is biased and highly personal were held...). But that's it, as far as tasty morsels for wikidramu-loving folks go. At least, if that archive is real... --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 07:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Procedural questions: is the access to that archive being given to all 1000+ admins (presumably excluding myself :D)? Who is in control of that archive? Assuming that the editor who obtained first by whatever means (hacking or being a real member), do note that editor is not an admin. Who can guarantee s/he will not spread the contents to whoever has a grudge against members of that list (and did I mention there is sensitive personal info in some emails, like real names and jobs of people who were the target of wiki harassment, including, IIRC, at least one death threat)? What guarantee there is that this info will not be made totally public? What right does anybody have to review the content of a private discussion list archive? Where is the line between evidence review and gross privacy violation? I don't have wiki crimes to hide, and neither does any other member of that list (as far as I know), but I know that there will be several admins and arbcom members who will not find comments I (and others) made about them to their liking. How are we to be protected from them? Will such arbcom members recuse themselves from making decision? Reading the list? Influencing their colleagues? Here's an amusing thing: if, hypothetically, on occasion we questioned the the integrity of the entire committee, will every arbcom member have to recuse themselves? :) While there is no denying that ArbCom (and anybody) can review public evidence, what are the grounds of it to be reviewing private evidence, obtained against the will of the person that supposedly created it? Do note that despite the claim that an (anonymous, of course) member of our discussion group fwd the alleged contents of the discussion group to the ArbCom (and various admins... and who knows who else), it is also possible that the contents were hacked from somebody's computer. I expect that the "whistle blower" will remain anonymous (conveniently), and even if s/he doesn't, the recipients of the group include few editors who have been inactive for months, who might have abandoned the project and whose entire identity could be usurped). How admissible and reliable is the "evidence" here? As I demonstrated above, it is inherently impossible to judge whether the alleged archive is real or not (I expect it contains 99% of true stuff and 1% of doctored fake "evidence"). As such, the only thing that will be generated by its review and discussion is going to be wikidramu (and harassment of members of that discussion list - and here's a bright idea: even the membership list could be doctored!). I think this entire thread and all mentions of the the discussion list should be blanked by oversight, end of story. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 07:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

: Access to the leaked archive is, unfortunately, beyond our control. The person who leaked it posted it as a zip file on a download site on the web and only gave us the link to that. Nobody is in control of who can access that url. The only thing I can tell you is that I personally will share neither the download url nor my downloaded copy of the material with anybody except arbcom, and I would recommend everybody else do the same. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 07:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

::Downloadable site, huh? In other words, its public. The provider could and should be asked to take it down (I hope you can take care of that), although it will be reuploaded later, since quite a few copies are floating around. Perhaps it may be possible to trace the IP of the person who made it available and inform their Internet provider that that person is a potential hacker and is sharing private information about others against their will? I hope checkuser(s) can take care of that. PS. Please don't confuse who is the victim here: people whose private information is being leaked, and whose reputation is being targeted by anonymous editors with faked evidence. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 08:12, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::: I gave the link to Tymek and would recommend if you want the material taken down you should pursue that with the site owners yourselves. As for IPs, my understanding is there are checkusers on the case and it may be technically possible to CU-track the IP from which the mails through Tymek's compromised account were sent. IP information on that download site will probably only be accessible through law enforcement. Finally, as for who is a "victim" here: I am afraid I do ''not'' currently believe the evidence is faked. You guys may be victims here, but innocent victims, no. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 08:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::: That sounds fair (although Tymek is not that active, so if you could ask the host to take the material down, it will be taken down hours before if we wait for Tymek - his emails to me indicate he is not really understanding what is going on... before today he never even heard of a [[keylogger]], for example, and his idea of a [[strong password]] is a joke - let me just say that anybody could have easily broken it with only a little effort). I do agree that Checkuser info on whoever violated our privacy should not be given to me or anybody else directly involved in this case (since it would violate the hacker privacy - this goes both ways and unlike some I respect privacy of everyone), but to the appropriate legal authorities (or his 'net provider, I am not sure what the procedures are here - but I am asking whoever is responsible for handling this (ArbCom/Checkuser/Oversight to take steps to ensure our privacy immediately). As for the definition of innocent, that's an interesting but off topic subject - but I'd love to discuss this with you once you join our list, this ("innocent in wikipolitics context") is the type of a subject we love :D PS. Regarding faked evidence: check for inconsistency in quoted text, and for missing parts of the conversation. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 09:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I did have a reply typed up, but I have scrubbed it. But I do find it quite enlightening, and humourous, that these editors have their own little [[web brigades|web brigade]] going on, and no doubt they have acted exactly like them. Oh well, time will tell...as will the multitude of information that is surely going to come from this. Let me just say, it is probably a good thing that I had my name and the like removed from [[:File:Kremlin authorisation-English.pdf]]. I have stated time and time again that my edits have been stalked, that I have been harrassed, that I have been tag teamed, and the like. Let's see if the proof is in the pudding. For example, perhaps Piotrus can confirm nor deny whether his obvious [[WP:GAME]] and [[WP:HARRASS|extension of long-going harrassment]] at [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive191#Ethics_of_sharing_an_account]] was discussed on the list at all. If it was the case, perhaps he can englighten us all at to what extent this was discussed, etc? I have long held the suspicion, since the beginning of the discussion, that this was yet another co-ordinated attack on myself. Arbcom obviously have the archives, of which there is no reason to believe that someone has faked thousands of emails, so they will be able to ascertain what the nature of this list is - check for emails around this date..it's that simple. I would suggest those participants come clean as to their involvement, and expand on what this list entailed. Because it doesn't look good for any of you. I also call for a full disclosure of who is on this list, and also for [[User:Piotrus]] to refrain from having anything to do with admin actions in relation to these users, until such time as it is ascertained whether there is anything that is desysoppable...this goes in with Piotrus claiming on [[User:Biophys]] talk page that [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Biophys&oldid=314466417 he is an uninvolved admin in relation to Biophys] (and probably others in his mind). Let me just say to everyone who is on this list, '''[[Derryn Hinch|SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!]]'''. --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 09:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I think ArbCom should publish selected pieces of this evidence, perhaps with names and email addresses removed. As for the genuinity, that should be easy to confirm by doing a chronological comparison of the emails and events on Wiki. For example, if there is a "call to arms" on 2009-xx-xx to launch some coordinated action, then we can easily verify if such action actually took place by checking diffs from the same time period. Tag teaming, plotting, stealth canvassing, provocation campaigns, etc. are completely unnacceptable per many of our policies. In the meantime, before ArbCom publishes their verdict (hopefully with evidence), I think it would be a good idea for everyone who was a member of that list to admit what exactly they have done, since I'm sure this would restore some of the community's faith towards these users. [[User:Offliner|Offliner]] ([[User talk:Offliner|talk]]) 13:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::For the record I want to state here that I DO NOT GIVE THE PERMISSION for ArbCom, its members or anyone else to publish pieces from PRIVATE email correspondence which were disseminated against my consent, probably through illegal means. This includes the publication of such material with names and email addresses removed (which would be merely a cosmetic "protection"). I also wish to note, and admonish Offliner, that he has no right to make such a request or try to convince others to engage in such privacy violations.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 17:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::I can confirm that I had email communications with many users inclding three checkusers, one ArbCom member and Piotrus. All such communications were ment to be private (that's why we have WP email). Whoever made private correspondence public, did a very bad thing. The purpose of the private correspondence is to keep private all our wrong fears, concerns and suspicions, because discussing them in public would be unwelcome and potentially damaging for the project. I ''never'' asked anyone over the email to harass Russavia or apply any administrative sanctions against him, not even when he was blocked by Moreschi for harassing me. I only had a legitimate concern about him, one that I once openly stated at the ANI. In the discussin above I suggested lesser sanctions for Russavia as a productive contributor and voted against the blanket topic bans in general.  I also ''never'' asked anyone over the email: "Hey, P., could you please revert my opponent in this article?". I was never involved in any illegal canvassing: one can easily check my votes during last months to see that I voted against Piotrus on almost all occasions, because I happened to disagree with him. I respect Sandstein and all other administrators who are doing great and difficult work here, and I ''never'' conspire against them. Among all WP administrators, I had a conflict only with Alex Bakharev during the infamous EE case. That was wrong. I apologized for that, and we are working towards a compromise.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys|talk]]) 15:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Whoever made private correspondence public did the right thing. I have stated for a long time that you, Digwuren, Martintg and others have participated in a systematic process of wikistalking and harrassment of myself. And for all of that time all of you have denied this, and attempted to make out that I am a bloody fool -- unfortunately, there was enough of you to sow the seeds of doubt into many people's minds. The fact of the matter is, Arbcom now have the emails in their hands, and I will be able to provide specific examples of where you guys have harrassed, stalked, etc and they will be able to put two and two together themselves. I have already provided evidence above of a thread that Piotrus started, which was an obvious setup to harrass myself on your own behalf. All that Arbcom has to do is to check the dates of the beginning of Piotrus' thread, and check the dates before it was posted for any discussions, and there is the proof in the pudding as to whether the emails are legitimate, and whether there is any truth in what is alleged (and will likely be proven in due course).

Of course there is also the matter of what is going to happen about all of this. I have written to Arbcom requesting clarification of what is going to happen. I would expect that there will be an Arbcom case on all of this, and the shit hitting the fan. And if the accusations are true, certain admins should be instantly desysopped. All I have wanted is to bring knowledge to Wikipedia, and provide information into articles that may not have been present previously, and of course, to write new articles. Instead I got was dragged into a fricking battlefield on which the most childish type of editors were operating, in which I never had a chance, because of obvious gaming, stalking, harrassment, and a whole lot of other childish crap. Thank you very much, I am sure all you folk are happy now; you make me sick, and I hope you all get what is rightly deserved.

<s>By the way, if there is an admin reading this, I had a page at [[User:Russavia/AE]] - would someone please be so kind as to reinstate this page for me, as I had evidence on there which I was going to present against these editors, and would like to be able to access it again, but I am unable to due to the unblock agreement.</s> Thanks. --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 16:42, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:Scrub the request to reinstate. --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 16:59, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::::As one of the subjects of those discussion (according to Alex, since I don't have access to them), I also urge the ArbCom to open a case, either open or closed (to protect possible sensitive information about certain users), and to set an example to the ones who try to influence WP content through such disgraceful means. I remember that in the last EE ArbCase numerous harassment and stalking accusation about these very users were brought but dismissed due to lack of hard evidence. If this archive does provide such evidence, the ArbCom should act accordingly. Ultimately it is not important how those archives were obtained (maybe a KGB covert operation, who knows?), but whether they show that a group of people worked together to influence the content of Wikipedia and to "remove" from editing users who didn't support their POV. Of course, care should be taken not to negatively affect the offline lives of real people.[[User:Anonimu|Anonimu]] ([[User talk:Anonimu|talk]]) 17:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::This is just to note that I am increasing the header level of this thread; it seems not really to be related to the parent thread. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 19:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

===As an aside===
I have unblocked Russavia for the sole purposes of commenting on this issue. I have told Russ specifically that if (s)he posts anywhere but here and/or about anything but this incident, (s)he will be reblocked; there is such a note in the unblock log as well. -<font color="32CD32">''[[User:Jéské Couriano|Jeremy]]''</font> <font color="4682B4"><sup>([[User talk:Jéské Couriano|v^_^v]] [[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Tear him for his bad verses!]])</sup></font> 07:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:As the blocking admin I can support this single-purpose unblock to allow Russavia to participate in this discussion. [[User:Good Olfactory|Good Ol’factory]] <sup>[[User talk:Good Olfactory|(talk)]]</sup> 07:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::Yes, his [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&diff=314576110&oldid=314575846 constructive comments] are very helpful, I am sure. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 19:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

===Further aside===
I received an email today from one of the cited parties asking that I not pass on information I obtained from the archive.  Well, the good news is I wasn't given a link to the archive so I can't pass on any information from it.  The bad news is that the email address the person used to send the request to me is their real life name that when googled pinpoints them and their current employer.  So word to the wise, when asking people not to look through a 3,000 email archive to get information to out you, do not send it from an email address that outs you without any work!  '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 15:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::I'm the one who emailed you. I wanted YOU to have my regular email address and my real name, because I have nothing to hide from YOU. However, this does not mean that I want random people, or people who may engage in harassment, stalking, or worse, to have this information. This is a crucial difference.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 17:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::I am aware of that and won't be disseminating your details further, however that is what your WP email is set to, so anyone you email via [[Special:EmailUser]] will see it and it is probably a bad idea to leave it set like that if you want to protect your privacy. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 17:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
: MBisanz may ask you and everybody else who got in possesion of those emails what made you think that you have the right to read and examine them in the first place? [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 15:37, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::...And to disseminate them further?[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 17:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::Did you read my first line?  Where it says I was not given the emails. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 15:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Sorry i've missed that, still my question remains valid for everybody else who was. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 15:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Some pro hacker stole private e-mails containing a lot of personal information of many users from somebody's account, probably adjusted the content to suit his agenda and then sent it all to the administrators pretending to be somebody else. This is big staff. It is actually very serious offence and a crime. I'm wondering if police[[http://www.cybercrime.gov/]] should get involved? --[[User:Jacurek|Jacurek]] ([[User talk:Jacurek|talk]]) 17:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Considering Russavia quick indef block above, shouldn't smth be done about this weakly camouflaged legal threat?[[User:Anonimu|Anonimu]] ([[User talk:Anonimu|talk]]) 17:36, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Just remember that if an editor [[WP:NLT|''take[s] legal action over a Wikipedia dispute, [they] may be blocked from editing so that the matter is not exacerbated through other channels'']]. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 17:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::These agency should be contacted first: Internet Crime Complaint Center and FBI maybe.. I don't know what are the rules here but some people may fear now that the personal and sensitive information may be used against them even further. If the crime has beem committed and we are dealing with pros this is really serious and should be reported to the proper authorities not just Checkusers.--[[User:Jacurek|Jacurek]] ([[User talk:Jacurek|talk]]) 17:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::I don't think this will be necessary, if the community and ArbCom take the right steps - close this pointless discussion, advice everyone not to give any credit to the faked evidence, and if they know who was responsible for the hack/stealing of private information, block that person from editing Wikipedia. As far as I am concerned, this entire wikidramu is EOT for me and I highly suggest that nobody posts on this subject anymore. The only one who benefits from this discussion is the person (persons) who stole/faked the information and is now trying to damage reputations of others. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 17:51, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Is reporting the incident to the police considered a legal action? oh o.k I did not know--[[User:Jacurek|Jacurek]] ([[User talk:Jacurek|talk]]) 17:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Depends, but in the case of [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=187373443 User:Pol64], claiming to look at edits with the intent of reporting them to the police was found to be a legal threat. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 17:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::Ya, no problem I was not aware of these polices. I'm just worry that some people may be in some personal troubles now, they may get some fake e-mails sent to their employers, wives etc..sorry.--[[User:Jacurek|Jacurek]] ([[User talk:Jacurek|talk]]) 18:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

This is not a "legal threat" because no specific Wikipedia editor is being told they may face legal action for anything they did on Wiki. What is being said is that the person, whoever they may be, that hacked the emails of private persons, and their Wikipedia accounts did something illegal, which I think is obvious. This hacking concerned an off-Wiki list. This is merely stating a fact that a crime was most likely committed, which has relevance for the purposes of present discussion.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 18:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:Well in the case of Guido de Broder, it was found to be a blockable offense on en.wiki for a Dutch editor to file a court complaint against another Dutch editor for a dispute on the Dutch wiki.  '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 18:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:: MBisanz, well but this sitaution is more similar to somebody breaking into your mailbox and you announcing here that you'll contact the Police. Jacurek did not threaten any editor so IMO it is not at a legal threat against wiki at all. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 18:19, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Well, firstly I'm involved per my email to arbcom of July 4th, so I'm recused as an admin/clerk and won't be doing any blocking.  However, if the mailbox example was between two editors, and they mentioned the dispute onwiki, there probably would be grounds for a block.  Basically, if a person is going to sue another editor for any reason, they shouldn't mention it onwiki. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 18:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::::But who then is the other editor? I'd love to find out.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 18:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::: MBisanz, there was no talk of sueing, he mentioned calling the Police for something that happened off-wiki. For the moment we don't even know if any editor from Wikipedia is involved. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 18:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Hey in any case, whoever it was, if it is a Wiki editor or not... I already said that I was not aware of the polices that potential crime can not be reported to the proper authorities due to the policies, it was just an idea which of course in this case is '''not''' being considered anymore. I was only worry about personal safety of the affected people. I'm sorry, should I also strike that comment out to be clear?--[[User:Jacurek|Jacurek]] ([[User talk:Jacurek|talk]]) 19:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Is anyone actually swallowing the garbage that these editors are giving us. First the emails were fake. Then they were stolen. Then they were fake again. Then they were stolen again. Now it is a combination of them being both fake and stolen. So what is it? You guys may want to discuss the lies you will tell here onlist, so at least you can all work off the same page...isn't that the whole point of the email list anyway? Your [[web brigades|web brigade]] co-ordinates your stalking, harrassment, gaming and other onwiki disruption so well, but when you all get '''BUSTED''', the lies come thick and fast, and the contradictions are already showing. Also laughable is the offer to open the list up to other editors....good try....what's stopping you all from moving your planning of stalking, harrassment and other disruption to another closed email list. Perhaps just face facts...someone in your cabal got sick of the tactics of you all, and have released the emails. Whoever it was...thanks...perhaps the bullshit in the Eastern European topics will come to an end after all, and editors who are here to contribute can contribute. --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 19:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

===There is no Cabal===
Remember: [[Wikipedia:Cabal]], there is no cabal. Anyone who claims there is a paranoid. 

This is one of Wikipedia's ridiculous [[legal fictions]] that editors tell each other and to the outside world to keep up the facade of  integrity.  

At least in the latest [[Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Removal_of_administrative_access|Sock puppet scandal]] editors admit that a problem exists (although many still support the status quo regardless). But if any editor claims a cabal exists, that editor is severly derided, criticized, and mocked.

As [[User:24.22.141.252]] wrote on the sockpuppet scandal:

:We lift up one rug in our home, and a roach scurries away. We lift up another - lo, another roach. None of the other rugs have been lifted...yet you're confident there were only two roaches, and there is no need to lift another rug.

The first step for the community to fix this problem is realizing they have one. [[User:Ikip|Ikip]] ([[User talk:Ikip|talk]]) 17:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::*I hope those worried and concerned, as they should be, are somewhat molified to know that I am watching this matter keenly as I have been over the last few days. I mentioned to certain Arbs three days ago that there was a problem - it will be properly dealt with, I shall see to that! Firstly, I am interested to know why there was a delay by the moderator of the Arbs mailing list? My advice is always to ignore him and email them direct. [[User:GiacomoReturned|Giano]] ([[User talk:GiacomoReturned|talk]]) 18:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

: Well maybe because spreading around private emails obtained God know how and without the permission of persons who wrote them is illegal. Probably they are evaluating all the legal aspects of reading such emails (i'm not a lawyer but even that might be dogdy). Even if you are an ArbCom member that doesn't some magically makes you an exception to law. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 18:37, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Rather than suggesting that 1,500 emails were forged and talking about things so utterly silly as contacting the FBI, everyone refocus on the matter at hand. How accurate is Alex's summary of the archive? I think that's up to the members of ArbCom to determine, and we all know they are ones to take their time. So, stop distracting and, hmm... what's the word I'm looking for... flailing. Everyone grab some popcorn, sit back, and just relax. [[User talk:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting Italic;color:deeppink">Lara</span>]] 18:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::We can trust Alex, one of the few we can. The Arbcom will mail each other and squabble for ages on how to "present and market" this to us, with a damage limitation[[User:GiacomoReturned|Giano]] ([[User talk:GiacomoReturned|talk]]) 19:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

====Just 2 cents====
Regarding the hacker/leaker. You can scrub the idea to call police or otherwise contact authorities or ISPs (who need warrants to disclose identities of IPs). In most cases the local police does not have jurisdiction over internet's activities. FBI ''may'' have jurisdiction if the affected parties are located in USA. If this case is international, do you really think Interpol could be the right venue? Is there anyone here who wants to deal with Russian police to find and prosecute a Russian individual for example? In any case I do not think any particular authority will be interested in pursuing this case for a number of reasons. First of all the leak may have been due to one of the members of the group who had legitimate access to the emails. Even if due to sheer luck some investigation uncovers the hacker who did in fact hack the emails, there would an insurmountable issue of actually prosecuting him as in proving beyond all reasonable doubt that (s)he indeed broke some law, and considering variety of federal and state laws or laws in other countries you are in for a big mess.

So at best you may hope for discovering the mole/hacker but for what reason? Punish him/her through Wikipedia's tools? Personally attack him? I don't know.

Regarding the calls for privacy. It is is in Wikipedia's main policies to keep identities of the contributors private. However there is nothing Wikipedia as an organization could do if the contributor decides to disclose his own identity or if the contributor participates in other online but off-wiki activities, such as being a member of an emailing group. If such an activity gets leaked by third parties do not expect Wikipedia to use some of her godly powers to undo the damage. At best you could hope that Wikipedia does not participate in disseminating the information, but once public it would stay public, and there is nothing you could do.

Calls to contact ISPs, prosecute the mysterious hacker, or somehow block the access to the site disseminating this archive and other such ideas would do nothing but result in the [[Streisand effect]]. The best you could do to hide this information is to stay silent in "no comment" mode and hope everything will be forgotten soon (and forgotten it will be). Do not hope to magically erase it. ([[User:Igny|Igny]] ([[User talk:Igny|talk]]) 19:12, 17 September 2009 (UTC))

*User: Winky Winky: Hello is that Interpol?
*Interpol: yes, to whom am I speaking?
*User: Winky Winky: I'm User: Winky Winky, and my secret emails about User Russavia (which I sent to many) have been stolen and sent to the Arbcom.
*Interpol: I beg your pardon? This is Interpol - international crime busters, have you misdialed?
*User: Winky Winky: No, I want Interpol to spend $50,000,000 sending secret agents around the world to investigate this serious crime.
*Interpol: Yes Mr Winky Winky, and for how long have you been having these symptoms?

Just my take on this. [[User:GiacomoReturned|Giano]] ([[User talk:GiacomoReturned|talk]]) 19:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:::I wonder if other encyclopedias have such dramatic mailing lists and editors offended by their identity being publicly revealed.  At some point, the majority of you all are going to realize that Wikipedia is more laughable than serious, more role-playing game than intellectual pursuit.  The real "cabal" are those who realize this and strive to maintain that imbalance. -- [[User:Thekohser|Thekohser]] 20:26, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

=== Request for closure and archival ===
The issue is being looked upon by ArbCom. I see no need to discuss issues further here, as [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&diff=314576110&oldid=314575846 such comments] are not helping anyone; this thread is developing into a repository of bad faith, personal attacks, accusations (all based upon an "evidence" of dubious nature and even more dubious origin) and an overall battleground. As such I request that it is archived and possibly even blanked (upon the digressions of a closing admin). --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 19:10, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::I'm sure you do Piotrus, but I think it is high time these things were aired - don't you? Some of these things go back quite a while - quite a while indeed - don't they? [[User:GiacomoReturned|Giano]] ([[User talk:GiacomoReturned|talk]]) 19:17, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Currently this discussion is indeed pointless. People are just throwing random assumptions around and building up drama because they themselves have not seen what sort of "evidence" there actually is.--[[User:Staberinde|Staberinde]] ([[User talk:Staberinde|talk]]) 19:36, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:No, I think [[Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Eastern_European_mailing_list]], shows there is some merit to this discussion. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 20:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::(ec with MBisanz) Speedily archived and even blanked? That will only make more people interested and will go against your own best interests Piotrus. What we really need is for an Arb to step in, tell us roughly how they are proceeding with this (via an ''in camera'' case or whatever), and then ask that the discussion stop in the mean time. It is true that there is little to be gained by discussing this further, and Lara's suggestion above that we stop "flailing" about is a good one.

::One thing we can say for sure though based on the what we absolutely know right now: no one has any business being on an off-wiki, non-public, list serv (excepting things like the Arb and functionary lists which need to be private and which we all know about, and whose members are elected by us) and this situation is a fine example of why that is. It doesn't even matter if what was said on this list (which multiple editors have admitted to participating in) was largely benign as its participants suggest, the very existence of such a list is grossly inappropriate. Off-wiki communication (such as e-mail) should be as limited as much as possible anyway, but formally creating a list to discuss "Wikipedia politics" with like minded editors is anathema to the spirit of this project, and anyone participating in such an endeavor (and I'm certain there are many who do) needs a serious dose of clue. IRC is a problem for the same reason, but obviously nothing will ever be done about that.

::If you ever find yourself in some closed, off-wiki forum discussing en.wikipedia politics for weeks on end, you have lost touch with what it is we are supposed to be doing here. And, again, I don't care that a lot of people do it. A lot of us don't, and no one should. It's really not at all complicated&mdash;99.99% of what you have to say about en.wikipedia should be said on this web site, period. --[[User:Bigtimepeace|Bigtimepeace]] <small>| [[User_talk:Bigtimepeace|talk]] |  [[Special:Contributions/Bigtimepeace|contribs]]</small> 20:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Based on MBizanz's link it seems the Arbs have this matter in hand, so I'm actually not sure there's a lot more to say here.

:::Also an addendum to my previous comment since I don't want it to be read the wrong way: though I don't participate in them, I actually don't have a problem with sites like wiki review since those are open to all, and since most Wikipedians identify themselves there with their account name here. My concern is with non-public lists, groups, etc. whose comments about Wikipedia are not viewable by others. --[[User:Bigtimepeace|Bigtimepeace]] <small>| [[User_talk:Bigtimepeace|talk]] |  [[Special:Contributions/Bigtimepeace|contribs]]</small> 20:12, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

{{Collapse bottom}}

:The Arbitration Committee is actively investigating this case. See [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Eastern European mailing list]]. Further evidence or analysis should be submitted to the committee. Therefore, this section may be archived. [[User:Cool Hand Luke|Cool Hand]] ''[[User talk:Cool Hand Luke|Luke]]'' 20:12, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::Do you mean<nowiki> {{hat}}</nowiki> or something similar, or actually shuffled onto the ANI archives manually? I'd rather have the notification you just posted on ANI for another 24.--[[User:Tznkai|Tznkai]] ([[User talk:Tznkai|talk]]) 20:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Yes. Put under a hat, not removed prematurely from ANI. [[User:Cool Hand Luke|Cool Hand]] ''[[User talk:Cool Hand Luke|Luke]]'' 20:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[Ian Plimer]], again (again) ==

{{resolved|Urgings detailed at bottom. A case of poor communication. Use RFPP for request for protection, lest you be accused of forum shopping [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] ([[User talk:Hipocrite|talk]]) 16:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)}}

[[User:William M. Connolley]] and [[User:Verbal]] have re-added the "see also" link to [[Climate change denial]], despite 5 editors objecting specifically to the "see also" on [[WP:BLP/N]] (me, GoRight, Child of Midnight, agr, and Pete Tillman). Also, earlier on [[WP:AN]] ([[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive202#Involved_admin_issuing_block|archive link to earlier discussion]]), Thatcher, Cla68, and Rd232 opposed adding an unadorned "see also". At issue is the heavy language in [[Climate change denial]], which claim deniers are engaged in '''disinformation''' and have a profit motive, both of which are very serious charges. Most editors agree it's acceptable to link to [[Climate change denial]] ''in the context'' of the article, i.e. if someone ''claims'' he is a denier, but there is significant objection to an out-of-context "see also" link, which implies an unambiguous link.

Given the objection to an unadorned "see also" link (at least respected 8 editors by my count), can some uninvolved admin please revert or protect that page? [[User:ATren|ATren]] ([[User talk:ATren|talk]]) 11:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:And since we seem to be in general agreement that it is a BLP violation to add the link in the "see also" section without context, please block WMC or whomever else tries to readd it. [[User:Cla68|Cla68]] ([[User talk:Cla68|talk]]) 11:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:: Tony Sidaway has now added the "see also" link back in after Cla removed it, so it's taking on the appearance of an edit war. Can an uninvolved admin take a look? [[User:ATren|ATren]] ([[User talk:ATren|talk]]) 12:01, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

::No we don't have general agreement that this is the case and the over the top response you just suggested is one reason why expanding BLP like this is unwise. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 16:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
moved from WP:AN by [[User:EdChem|EdChem]] ([[User talk:EdChem|talk]]) 12:05, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment:  I have read the whole discussion at the BLP noticeboard and the relevant Plimer pages, and any administrator considering acting should be very careful in trusting the above description - I would characterise it as highly biased.  I have never edited any page on global warming / climate change, and am truly an uninvolved editor.  I would evaluate the arguments advanced about there being a BLP problem as extremely weak.  WP:RS sources support the description of Plimer as a climate change denier.  In my view, the 'see also' link is justifiable, reasonable, and appropriate.  [[User:EdChem|EdChem]] ([[User talk:EdChem|talk]]) 12:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:Did you read the ''entire'' discussion on those pages? The BLP/N section had at least 5 editors object to an unadorned "see also" link, most of whom supported an in-context link (which, by the way, is now there, so the "see also" link is now superfluous). Also, on the archived thread, Thatcher, Cla, and Rd232 all weighed in on the side of not including the link, once they realized that the [[Climate change denial]] article  speaks about the perpetration of fraud, which is a much weightier charge than skepticism or even simplistic denialism. Note again, the issue is with the "see also" link, which gives the implication of unambiguous association, not with including denial in the article context where, for example, George Monbiot's claim has now been documented ''with a link to the denial page.'' [[User:ATren|ATren]] ([[User talk:ATren|talk]]) 12:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I have posted a notification to WMC, Verbal, and Tony Sidaway - each was adversely mentioned in this report and should have been notified as a matter of courtesy.  [[User:EdChem|EdChem]] ([[User talk:EdChem|talk]]) 12:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
: {{ec}}Indeed there is no consensus that this See Also link is in any way a BLP violation. A it is now in the text I don't see a huge problem with the see also being removed (although the text should probably be changed so it actually includes "climate change", which is why I missed it), but the misleading representations of policy and consensus need to stop. It's interesting that several editors have attempted to force policy changes here and have stated they want the climate change denial article deleted - which clearly would be against wikipedia policy, and damage the goals of the project. <small>Note Ed Chem notified me of this discussion.</small><span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 12:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Uncle G has done some weird things here, so I'm re-opening this even thought TS removed it. Several of us have tried to talk to UG about this, but he insists nothing is odd and he has explained all here [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Uncle_G&diff=313847369&oldid=313846101]. So... UG sez ''same restoration of status quo ante the edit war and same protection (with same expiry date) as at [[Heaven and Earth (book)]]''. However, we have "(Changed protection level for "Ian Plimer": Same edit war as at Heaven and Earth (book), same protection as at Heaven and Earth (book). ([edit=sysop] (expires 03:57, 13 August 2010 (UTC)) [move=sysop] (expires 03:57, 13 August 2010 (UTC))))" and "Viridae (talk | contribs) m (35,214 bytes) (Changed protection level for "Heaven and Earth (book)": Edit warring / Content dispute: edit warring, claims of BLP violations ([edit=sysop] (expires 00:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)) [move=sysop] (expires 03:57, 13 August 2)" and those don't look the same to me. A one year prot looks totally over the top; UG won't acknowledge this [[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] ([[User talk:William M. Connolley|talk]]) 13:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
*That's perhaps because you ''didn't actually say that'' at any point.  Instead you asked for a rationale for protecting the article against the edit warring, which was already clearly given both above and in the protection log.  Copy and paste error on my part, as could have been easily figured out from the rationale given.  Expiry date adjusted.  Resolved.  Now go back and ''actually settle your content dispute'' on those two articles' talk pages.  Shoo! [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 13:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:UG has modified the protection. When it expires, perhaps we can discuss any changes civilly on the talk page before making them? There is significant opposition to a "see also" link, but there is discussion about adding Monbiot's claims to the article text, which I and others think is appropriate. [[User:ATren|ATren]] ([[User talk:ATren|talk]]) 14:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Nope, still not resolved. Uncle G is being just ateensy bit evasive with his response above. If you look on his talk page, you'll find: ''The duration is most definitely not "fucked up", and is quite deliberate''. Err, except it wasn't. It was wrong. Uncle G: this is a complaint about your behaviour. Please don't take it upon yourself to resolve it. 

However, now we've got the timestamps corrected, the next issue is your revert-before-protect. This seems rather dubious [[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] ([[User talk:William M. Connolley|talk]]) 14:07, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

*The protected page is also still not tagged, by the way.  [[User:EdChem|EdChem]] ([[User talk:EdChem|talk]]) 14:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
** Yep, I told Uncle G that too, but he was too busy writing invective here to deal with it [[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] ([[User talk:William M. Connolley|talk]]) 14:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
**William M. Connolley [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Heaven_and_Earth_(book)&diff=313255209&oldid=313149307 clearly knows how to do that]. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 14:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

This incident is an edit war at [[Ian Plimer]]/[[Heaven and Earth (book)]].  Honestly, complaining about the status quo ante being [[m:The Wrong Version|The Wrong Version]] and trying to make the discussion about the uninvolved protecting administrator is something that we expect from POV-pushing novices, not experienced editors, William M. Connolley.<p>Now, again: Shoo!  Go and resolve the content dispute that you are a party to. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 14:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
*You've misspelled Connolley's name twice here. The fact that you've written out his name in full but misspelled it in ''two different ways'' in two consecutive posts strongly suggests that it's a deliberate dig, rather unbecoming of a supposedly neutral administrator. [[User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|Short Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 14:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC) 
**Nah.  No such intent.  It's just more bloody typing errors on my part.  I didn't copy and paste the names, but typed them out longhand.  I mis-spelled "Ian Plimer" as "Ian Pilmer", you'll notice, too.  On two separate pages.  I caught those in a later edit.  I didn't catch the above.  Gah!  Fixed.  [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 14:40, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
***OK, thanks. There ''are'' some people who are trying to kick WMC while he's down, so it's good to know you're not one of them. [[User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|Short Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 16:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Can items in the See also section that are already linked higher up in the article please be removed per [[WP:SEEALSO]]? Thank you, --[[Special:Contributions/98.182.55.163|98.182.55.163]] ([[User talk:98.182.55.163|talk]]) 14:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
*That's a matter for [[Talk:Ian Plimer]].  ([[Ian Plimer]] ''has no'' "See also" section, note.)  The status quo ante the edit war, without the contested biographical content, has been reinstated.  That's what you get per [[Wikipedia:Protection policy#Content disputes]] and [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons]].  It's also the same as is the case at [[Heaven and Earth (book)]], where the same edit war, with the same participants, over the same content, is occurring.  Anything else here is editorial.  If there's a consenus {{tl|editprotected}} request on the talk page for a non-controversial edit unrelated to the content dispute, then I or any other uninvolved administrator will fulfil it for you. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 14:52, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that "Shoo!" is something you might say to inexperienced editors, and is impolite in this context. Now, lets get back to the points you are failing to get: perhaps we can do the really simple one first: you haven't tagged the article as protected, and you haven't explained your protect on the article talk page as you should [[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] ([[User talk:William M. Connolley|talk]]) 14:53, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
*You didn't need any such explanation by the protecting administrator at [[Talk:Heaven and Earth (book)]].  Now ''go and resolve the content dispute that you are involved in''. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 15:12, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
** Quite right, I didn't. I did the correct thing there myself (which weirdly enough was heavily criticised by an arb. However, this time you're going to have to do the right thing. You have realised that it is the right thing, yes? And you are just being stubborn in conduct unbefitting an admin, yes? Now go tag it, and add a note to the talk page explaining yourself [[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] ([[User talk:William M. Connolley|talk]]) 15:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
*** You were heavily criticized for it?  Not by me.  That is surprising.  Where, exactly?  Given that you are wanting to avoid sanction &mdash; another thing that you ''didn't actually say'' &mdash; I'll put the tag on for you.  But ''this'' protecting administrator would have had no issue with your simply putting the {{tl|protected}} tag on the protected article yourself.  [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 15:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
**** WMC is no longer an adminstrator. Per arbitor Risker, an involved adminstrator placing a disputed tag on an article is "very borderline" [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-William_M._Connolley/Proposed_decision&diff=prev&oldid=313459420][http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Risker&diff=313619347&oldid=313564452], and "provocative ... and controversial..." [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Risker&diff=313731438&oldid=313727865], "inappropriate at best" [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Risker&diff=prev&oldid=313640712], and "a controversial act" [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Risker&diff=next&oldid=313732375]. Just to keep you up to date. [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] ([[User talk:Hipocrite|talk]]) 15:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

***** I've just found out about the ArbCom decision. This explains a lot. It seems that I disagree with Risker about that particular edit. As I said, as the protecting administrator I wouldn't have had any trouble with a similar edit, doing nothing more than adding {{tl|protected}} to a protected page, here. I wouldn't have regarded it as toe-stepping or provocative. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 16:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Uncle G, I am not involved in the ongoing dispute at [[Ian Plimer]] but I am concerned by your actions.  I am also not an administrator and thus cannot edit through protection to tag the page as protected.  You could have done so in the time it took you to find the WMC diff.  As the administrator who put the protection in place, it is YOUR responsibility to add the tag - so please, just go and place the tag you should have placed hours ago.  Then, please answer the question that remains - why did you revert immediately prior to instituting page protection, instead of protecting the current version, as is standard practice according to [[WP:PREFER]]?  [[User:EdChem|EdChem]] ([[User talk:EdChem|talk]]) 14:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
*The question was ''answered'' hours ago, too, before it was actually asked, even.  Read (1) the edit summary of the edit itself, where there's an explanation, (2) what is right at the top of this discussion, where there is an explanation, (3) what is immediately above, where there is an explanation, and (4) the policies that apply, where there is an explanation.  Four times over really should be enough for anyone.  [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 15:06, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Uncle G, since you are finding tagging the page such a challenge, here is a link to the instructions from the new admin school discussion of protection: [[Wikipedia:New_admin_school/Protecting#Protecting_a_page]]  If you look carefully you will find that step 8 in the process involves tagging the page.  Since the page is presently fully protected, only an admin can make the edit necessary to add the tag.  You are the admin who instituted the full protection.  The responsibility is yours.  It won't take you long to do.  Please, do what you should have done when you first fully protected the page for a year and tag the page as protected.  [[User:EdChem|EdChem]] ([[User talk:EdChem|talk]]) 15:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

*I seem to be saying this a lot: Already answered. See above. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 16:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Well done Uncle G: you've added the tag. Now you need to add a note to the talk page explaining why you've protected it. However, the issue of your choice to revert the page before protecting remains unresolved. Please don't mark reports of your own behaviour as resolved; I'm sure you'll agree you have a COI on this report [[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] ([[User talk:William M. Connolley|talk]]) 15:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

*I have taken the resposibility of closing this boondogle. Some urgings:
# Cla68 is reminded that [[WP:RFPP]] exists and is urged to take the route of less drama and request protection there. 
# Uncle G is reminded that he should remain vigilent to use tools accurately, and is urged to carefully review complaints or concerns about his adminstive behavior - that a complete review of the situation would have led him to realize that WMC was no longer an adminstrator, and thus unable to add the protected tag (regardless of the propriety of doing so). He is additionally urged to try even harder to communicate effectively, even if its the other party that is doing wrong.
# WMC is reminded that not everyone is up to speed with every action taken everywhere, and is urged to give more complete context to his comments requesting action. He is additionally urged to try even harder to communicate effectively, even if its the other party that is doing wrong.
# The community is urged to consider if involved admins adding {{tl|protected}} to articles they are involved in is adminstrative abuse. [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] ([[User talk:Hipocrite|talk]]) 16:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
# PS: I decline to consider if the revert-before-protect is appropriate, but comment that the best way forward is to find an alternative version that both sides find minimally acceptable in the interim. If there are further complaints about the wrong version being protected, they should be refiled, though I suggest raising them calmly with the protecting admin before noticeboarding, and urge the filing party and protecting admin to wipe the slate clean before raising said issues. [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] ([[User talk:Hipocrite|talk]]) 16:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

**I would suggest that revert-before-protect is totally appropriate in BLP situations per [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Footnoted_quotes#Special_enforcement_on_biographies_of_living_persons special enforcement]. "Administrators are authorized to use any and all means at their disposal to ensure that every Wikipedia article is in full compliance with the letter and spirit of the biographies of living persons policy. Administrators may use the page protection and deletion tools as they believe to be reasonably necessary to effect compliance." Also note "Appeals may be made to the appropriate administrators’ noticeboard. However, administrators are cautioned not to reverse or modify such actions without clear community consensus to do so." Also see [[WP:BLPLOG]].--[[User:ArnoldReinhold|agr]] ([[User talk:ArnoldReinhold|talk]]) 21:07, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
***Please read ''all'' of the ArbCom remedy you're citing. Any [[WP:BLPSE]] action must be logged and identified as such. If these actions are being undertaken under [[WP:BLPSE]], then they need to be appropriately identified and logged as such. You even link directly to the [[WP:BLPLOG|log page]] in your post, so you're presumably aware of this requirement. Special enforcement is a specific power which carries specific responsibilities, not an abstract precept to retroactively justify random administrative actions. For the record, this revert-before-protect appears acceptable under the current iteration of our [[WP:PROT|protection policy]]. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 21:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
****I included the log link to call attention to the logging requirement. (I believe it was you who recently brought it to my attention.) Sorry I wasn't more explicit. --[[User:ArnoldReinhold|agr]] ([[User talk:ArnoldReinhold|talk]]) 23:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
*****Thanks guys. [[User:Cla68|Cla68]] ([[User talk:Cla68|talk]]) 23:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
== Indef'd Redking7 ==

Not really an incident (yet) but I just indef'd Redking7, and oddly enough he isn't happy [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Redking7&diff=313654268&oldid=313645330]. Feel free to take a look [[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] ([[User talk:William M. Connolley|talk]]) 21:28, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:Seems a bit extreme, imo. [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 21:40, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:Perhaps as you clearly have a lot going on at the moment, it would be better if you didn't make any controversial admin decisions. [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 21:50, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:: Redking7 has been nothing but a timesink for many editors and admins for a long time (and over numerous areas, xe isn't quite a SPA).  An indef is, IMO, not harming the encyclopedia in any way. [[User talk:Black Kite|<b style="color:black;">Black Kite</b>]] 22:19, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Rather extreme, I should add. I don't see any reason for this, just the rationale, "give a dog a bad name". Can you admins not wait until something actually happens, then you might be able to justify what is technically an editor ban.  [[User:Tfz|<span style="color:blue; font-family:Comic sans;">''Tfz''</span>]] [[User talk:Tfz|<span style="color:blue;"> <small></small> </span>]] 22:55, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:::: It's difficult to give a dog a bad name when the dog insists on gaining one themselves.  This is an editor who is persistently tendentious on RoC issues, but also previously were obsessed with the same thing on Ireland-related nationalist disputes ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ireland_Collaboration&diff=prev&oldid=294794355 this edit revently] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Born_to_Sing_(song)&diff=prev&oldid=214017686 dozens like this]; they were even blocked for edit-warring over Ireland-related articles at one point) and has recently managed to unhelpfully join in with the Macedonia-related one [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Macedonia_naming_dispute&diff=prev&oldid=312244050]. The phrase "drama magnet" springs to mind. [[User talk:Black Kite|<b style="color:black;">Black Kite</b>]] 23:11, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::I never remember Redking7 being "persistently tendentious on RoC issues, but also previously were obsessed with the same thing" on Irish related disputes. Maybe you mean British related disputes, because that's where the trouble often starts, but of course none of those British editors ever get blocked. [[User:Tfz|<span style="color:blue; font-family:Comic sans;">''Tfz''</span>]] [[User talk:Tfz|<span style="color:blue;"> <small></small> </span>]] 23:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::: Uh, no.  Redking7's two blocks were for edit warring on [[The Troubles]] and [[List of diplomatic missions of Ireland]] which strangely enough, are Irish-related articles.  The "British editors never get blocked" straw man is probably not worth waving around here, to be honest.  Frankly I'm not particularly bothered whether xe's blocked or not; merely pointing out that mine (and probably many other) editor's experiences of him are a net negative.  Your mileage, as always, may vary. [[User talk:Black Kite|<b style="color:black;">Black Kite</b>]] 23:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::The troubles are British/Irish related in my experience, and wrong to blame Irish editors for that. I have said what I have to say on the Redking7 issue.  [[User:Tfz|<span style="color:blue; font-family:Comic sans;">''Tfz''</span>]] [[User talk:Tfz|<span style="color:blue;"> <small></small> </span>]] 23:41, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:Appears to be a good block.— '''[[User:Daedalus969|<span style="color:green;">Dæ</span>]][[User talk:Daedalus969|dαlus]] [[Special:Contributions/Daedalus969|<sup style="color:green;">Contribs</sup>]]''' 23:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
::Spell it out then. [[User:Tfz|<span style="color:blue; font-family:Comic sans;">''Tfz''</span>]] [[User talk:Tfz|<span style="color:blue;"> <small></small> </span>]] 23:09, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Continuous edit warring, refactoring talk page posts and the refusal to get why it's wrong, not to mention a refusal to get the point.— '''[[User:Daedalus969|<span style="color:green;">Dæ</span>]][[User talk:Daedalus969|dαlus]] [[Special:Contributions/Daedalus969|<sup style="color:green;">Contribs</sup>]]''' 23:13, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Generalisations + innuendo, I would would like something more concrete than that. [[User:Tfz|<span style="color:blue; font-family:Comic sans;">''Tfz''</span>]] [[User talk:Tfz|<span style="color:blue;"> <small></small> </span>]] 23:19, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Innuendo?  I don't know what you're talking about.— '''[[User:Daedalus969|<span style="color:green;">Dæ</span>]][[User talk:Daedalus969|dαlus]] [[Special:Contributions/Daedalus969|<sup style="color:green;">Contribs</sup>]]''' 23:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
He is requesting unblock; clear consensus here on whether he should get it or not might be neat. -[[User:FisherQueen|FisherQueen]]<span style="font-size: smaller;"> ([[User talk:FisherQueen|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/FisherQueen|contribs]])</span> 23:20, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
:{{User3|Redking7}} does seem to have had some problems over the years here, although I'm not sure he's to the "indef" point yet, he may be at the one to two week point. (depending upon the circumstances of the block)  Looking at the contribs., I'm not sure the "SPA" moniker is entirely accurate, although  there is a pattern to his edits.  If you're looking for a consensus on an unblock, I'd be in favor of a mod. to 1 or 2 weeks, but not an immediate unblock. — <small><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding:1px;"><b>[[User:Ched Davis|Ched]]</b> : [[User_talk:Ched Davis|<font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;">&nbsp;?&nbsp;</font>]]</span></small> 23:50, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Would a 1RR restriction or topic ban help here? [[user talk:Skomorokh|<span style="background:#222222; color:#ffffff; font-family:Goudy Old Style;">&nbsp;Skomorokh&nbsp;</span>]] 00:36, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

This block should just be scratched and re-evaluated on basic principle (and that's not to say the outcome will not be the same). The last three blocks on this user were from WMC himself, and then he indeffed him 8 hours before he gets his status as an admin removed by arbcom. This just looks like a last hurrah from an admin who knew they were about to be canned, and as such it should not be allowed to stand unreviewed, or be given the cursory 'you didn't say the magic word' unblock decline. [[User:MickMacNee|MickMacNee]] ([[User talk:MickMacNee|talk]]) 02:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::(1) WMC does not strike me as the kind of person who would make "last hurrah" guestures.  Had he received any warnings that his behaviour was contemptable?  Did he know he was on thin ice?  If he did he would have modified his behviour, or at least defend himself.  
::(2) A number of admins endorsed the temporary blocks imposed by WMC whenever RedKing sought redress.  Nobody criticised WMC's actions.  
::(3) RedKing7 displays no capacity to debate issues in good faith.  Bystanders to a debate generally only need three minutes to understand "we are including missions in Taiwan, Palestine, Kosovo and elsewhere because they are de facto missions, even though no diplomatic missions exists between those states".  RedKing7 still doesn't seem to get it.
::[[User:Kransky|Kransky]] ([[User talk:Kransky|talk]]) 12:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

===Proposed re-evaluation of the block===
In my opinion, a long block would clearly be deserved, but I don't think it would cure the problem. Instead, I propose an editing restriction.

[[User talk:Redking7|Redking7]] is a long-term edit warrior on the subject of diplomatic relations between Taiwan and various countries. His changes are constantly being reverted, but he won't participate in any proper form of [[WP:Dispute resolution|dispute resolution]]. In the boxed section below I've packaged up some diffs.

I would support lifting of the indef block, if he will accept two conditions:
#A 1RR restriction on all articles: no more than one revert per article per week
#No edits or discussion regarding Taiwan, or on Taiwan's relations with other countries.
I'd also warn him that violation of the 1RR could lead to an indef block. Since he is currently requesting unblock, I'd make the unblock depend on him voluntarily accepting these restrictions. Since he still sees no problem whatever with his editing, it's an open question whether he will accept the restrictions. If he doesn't, I would leave the indef in place.

{{hat|reason=Extended diffs}}
I see three cases involving Redking7 at the 3RR noticeboard between April 2008 and the present. My search did not find any occurrence of his name at [[WP:AN]] or [[WP:ANI]]. My own memory of the events I am familiar with indicates that the 3RR blocks were well-deserved (I issued one of them). He has been arguing for nearly a year (since November 2008) that Wikipedia gives too much prominence to the liaison offices that many countries have established in Taiwan. Other editors have argued that these offices are a form of diplomatic relations, and they've added them to the list of diplomatic missions of some countries. This is, of course, arguable but Redking7 (it seems) is never going to take no for an answer, and won't participate in any proper form of dispute resolution. He just keeps on reverting and reverting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive70#User:Redking7_reported_by_User:BrownHairedGirl_.28Result:_8_hours.29
[[The Troubles]]
(13 April 2008) (Blocked 8 hours by CIreland)
Four reverts to change 'Republic of Ireland' to 'Ireland' plus one other change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive84#User:Redking7_reported_by_User:Kransky_.28Result:_24_hours.29
[[Diplomatic missions of Ireland]]
(16 November 2008)  (Blocked 24 hours by EdJohnston).
He was warring to remove Taipei from [[Diplomatic missions of Ireland]].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive102#User:Redking7_reported_by_Bidgee_.28talk.29_.28Result:_1_week.29
[[List of diplomatic missions of the United Kingdom]]
(24 June 2009) (Blocked 1 week by WMC). Pattern of long-term edit warring, 6 reverts at this article over 6 days.
He was warring to remove Taipei from the [[List of diplomatic missions of the United Kingdom]]

VirtualSteve blocked him 48 hours in March, 2009 for edits such as:
http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Solomon_Islands&diff=280213001&oldid=280163538
where he changes the [[Solomon Islands]] from a [[commonwealth realm]] to a [[constitutional monarchy]]. He did the same thing at three different articles.

For example,
http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Papua_New_Guinea&diff=277160630&oldid=276626324
he did the same thing at [[Papua New Guinea]].
He made the same change three times over a period of several days before he finally stopped.
Same thing happened at [[The Bahamas]], where he made the same change three times over a period of several days. Each time he was reverted.

13 September:
http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=List_of_diplomatic_missions_of_South_Korea&diff=prev&oldid=313549754
(Adding 'refimprove' to this article for the reason "This list needs verification - For example, sources show S. Korea does not have diplomatic mission to Taipei (RoC))")

13 September:
http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=List_of_diplomatic_missions_of_Canada&diff=prev&oldid=313549558
(The List is Wrong. For example, Canada does not have diplomatic relations with RoC Taiwan - Verification needed.)
His change was reverted by another editor.

Same thing at:
*[[List of diplomatic missions of the United States]]
*[[List of diplomatic missions of Germany]]
*[[List of diplomatic missions of France]]

He has edited [[List of diplomatic missions in the Republic of China]] to revert to his own view of the diplomatic situation regarding these quasi-missions. His change was reverted by another editor. This shenanigans was going on as recently as 13 September, and came after expiry of his previous block on September 9. (The last block was by WMC for some kind of canvassing regarding Taiwan on the talk pages of many different users). So he hasn't given up POV-pushing on his favorite topic.
{{hab}}
Reviewers can see details of all the past blocks on [[User talk:Redking7|his current Talk page]], since he didn't remove the old notices or the unblock requests. 

[[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 04:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

::Some very old stuff there, and he was entitled to change RoI to Ireland, because that is the name of the country, and the Wikipedia entry is quite wrong in this regard. There has just been a poll concluded on this issue, and it is contentious with many editors, and quite wrong to single out Redking. If this is the evidence you are offering for long block, then I can think of many many more editors who should have long block too. I propose a shorter block of a week at most, but no new parameters included. [[User:Tfz|<span style="color:blue; font-family:Comic sans;">''Tfz''</span>]] [[User talk:Tfz|<span style="color:blue;"> <small></small> </span>]] 13:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

*That seems fine with me. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 05:56, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
*So what was the upshot here? A block just before one is about to lose one's bit seems... unseemly. But apparently the issues with the user are non trivial. Is there consensus here to leave things be? To go with a conditional unblock subject to the provisos given? Thanks for clarification. ++[[User:Lar|Lar]]: [[User_talk:Lar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Lar|c]] 03:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
*I would support replacing the indef with something much shorter, but with the topic ban on anything to do with Taiwan/ROC and the People's Republic of China, either the pages or the talk.  He is POV pushing, has been uncivil, and generally disruptive.  [[User:Bevinbell|'''<span style="color:White;background:darkRed">Bevin</span>''']][[User talk:Bevinbell|'''<span style="color:darkRed">bell'''</span>]] 13:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
*I commented on his talk page before I found this thread. I agree with EdJohnston's proposal. [[User:PhilKnight|PhilKnight]] ([[User talk:PhilKnight|talk]]) 20:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::1RR on all articles is very extreme, it's impossible to edit anything under those restrictions. Maybe 2 month ban on the pertinent articles would be a safer course to follow. WC does seem to have a "thingy" with Redking and really shouldn't have indeffed when he knew his adminship as effectively terminated. On the balance of probabilities, this block is very unsafe. [[User:Tfz|<span style="color:blue; font-family:Comic sans;">''Tfz''</span>]] [[User talk:Tfz|<span style="color:blue;"> <small></small> </span>]] 00:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::It's quite possible to edit under 1RR, but quite difficult to edit ''war'', which I rather think is the point. A two-month article ban sounds like a remedy without any teeth, to me. I might prefer we leave talk page editing open, tentatively, but in general I agree with the thrust of Ed's proposal. I'm not sure how we should handle this, in the event Redking refuses to acknowledge any sanctions. – <small>[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#28f">Luna Santin</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</small> 19:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Two months topic ban on diplomatic missions does have very big teeth indeed, and if Redking agreed with that, then that would be a sign of working with consensus. Wikipedia should have more confidence in itself in resolving simple issues like this, and be prepared to move forward. [[User:Tfz|<span style="color:blue; font-family:Comic sans;">''Tfz''</span>]] [[User talk:Tfz|<span style="color:blue;"> <small></small> </span>]] 22:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Where a problem has obviously persisted for some time, and an editor at the root of that problem seems unable or unwilling to even acknowledge concerns regarding their disruptive behavior, what exactly is shoving the problem under the rug for two months going to accomplish? A 1RR restriction allows editing, but prevents edit warring; a short ban, in the absence of some other, enduring limitation, strikes me as unlikely to bring about a long-term improvement in the situation. – <small>[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#28f">Luna Santin</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</small> 17:17, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

=== Talk page protection ===
I've reblocked to protect the talk page.  He doesn't seem to be doing anything useful with it, and given his long history, this "what did I do" bit doesn't seem to be going anywhere. -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 05:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:A bit outre perhaps. There appears to be broad consensus for an unblock of this account. [[User:Tfz|<span style="color:blue; font-family:Comic sans;">''Tfz''</span>]] [[User talk:Tfz|<span style="color:blue;"> <small></small> </span>]] 13:32, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

::Hmm, Just took at look at his most recent talk page postings - he does not seem to be willing to support any editing restrictions and has continued his rather uncivil approach to discussion.  Maybe I would add he needs a mentor along with a topic and talk ban.  [[User:Bevinbell|'''<span style="color:White;background:darkRed">Bevin</span>''']][[User talk:Bevinbell|'''<span style="color:darkRed">bell'''</span>]] 13:42, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

::: Someone can still reblock to eliminate the talk page protection if they feel like it, and discuss it with xem.  -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 17:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:A talk page lock seems unnecessary, at this point; is anything being posted there particularly dangerous or exacerbating, in this situation? Bear in mind that talk page blocking was originally designed as a measure to mitigate flooding and other exploits. I think it's best if we keep communication open as long as is reasonably possible, here. – <small>[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#28f">Luna Santin</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</small> 19:11, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::As there's been no objection that I've noticed, I've unlocked the talk page for the time being. – <small>[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#28f">Luna Santin</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</small> 17:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

== Nuclear meltdown at [[User talk:Linas]] ==

If anyone is familiar with {{user|Linas}}, you might want to have a chat with him.  You'll have to tweak his block first since I've tried to stop his meltdown there.  I have no idea who he is (I was led there by [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tedder&diff=313692192&oldid=313596596 a crazy edit summary] on my watchlist) but his user page indicates this meltdown has been brewing for a while.  Maybe someone can [[WP:SPIDER|talk him down]]?  <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">[[User:Wknight94|<span style="color: #EE5B0D;">Wknight94</span>]] [[User talk:Wknight94|<sup style="color: blue;">talk</sup>]]</span> 01:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
*Yikes.  [[user:Juliancolton]] blocked [[user:Linas]] for 3 days post-meltdown.[[User:Sinneed| - Sinneed]] ([[User talk:Sinneed|talk]]) 01:21, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
**That is actually block #2 in the last couple days.  There is a ban in the near future if this continues.  From his user page, I think he's forgetting that we're all disillusioned by the same things he is disillusioned by.  But we don't all start screaming at people because of it.  <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">[[User:Wknight94|<span style="color: #EE5B0D;">Wknight94</span>]] [[User talk:Wknight94|<sup style="color: blue;">talk</sup>]]</span> 01:27, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
***Having been involved in this, can I suggest that if his incivility just amounts to saying "fuck the admins" a whole bunch of times on his talk page, people try to ignore it if possible?  He's been a very valuable editor in the past.  If he actually does damage it's a different story, but that kind of stuff is pretty harmless. [[User:Looie496|Looie496]] ([[User talk:Looie496|talk]]) 02:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
****The premise to your first question is a false one, so what you build upon it is ill-founded.  Go and look at edits such as the one given below or [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Aboutmovies&diff=prev&oldid=313194805 this], which are not addressed to an administrator, or [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Pohta_ce-am_pohtit&diff=prev&oldid=312662516 this].  This is not lone-good-editor-versus-the-evil-administrator-cabal.  This is I'm-an-expert-and-you-are-a-moron, directed at other people ''regardless'' of account privileges. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 02:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
***One cure for such disillusionment is perhaps a realization such as the following:  Linas has spent quite a lot of time berating people here (see [[User:Linas]] for starters) for not doing things as they are done at, say, Citizendium.  The irony is, of course, that an edit such as [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Linas&diff=313191478&oldid=313046745 this one made by Linas] made over at Citizendium would result in an immediate, unequivocal, permanent expulsion from the project.  Here, Linas has had xyr editing privileges suspended for a short while, and that only after having been warned first.  So maybe the illusions that one might have had of an ideal encyclopaedia project, filled only with experts, all telling one other to fuck off, are good ones to have shattered.  &#9786; [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 02:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::(ec) @Looie496: An off-color comment?  Sure.  But these are going way too far:
::::#''Fuck off, asshole'' [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Linas&diff=prev&oldid=313191478]
::::#''Fuck off asshole ... assholes like you never actually look at the article edit history, or realize that their bullshit is captured in that history ... Figure out what's wrong with your brain, and go fix that! ... Stop assaulting total strangers and acting like a total A-1 dick-weed!'' [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Aboutmovies&diff=prev&oldid=313194805]
::::#:When he was blocked for these outrageous comments, his response included:
::::#''...too many assholes like [[User:Aboutmovies]] ... So I called him an asshole, which he richly deserves ... Fuck off tedder. You are part of the problem, and not part of the solution. The sooner we get rid of fucking asshole admins like you, the better wikipedia will be'' [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tedder&diff=prev&oldid=313692192]
::::#[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Linas&diff=prev&oldid=313694013 This entire edit is ridiculous].
::::#''Fuck you Juliancolton.'' [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Linas&diff=prev&oldid=313697612]
::::#''Fuck you, Wknight94.'' [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Linas&diff=prev&oldid=313697791]
::::#'''''FUCK YOU!''' ... my user page ... says '''YOU'RE ALL ASSHOLES!''' ... You are fucking stupid!'' [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Linas&diff=prev&oldid=313699640]
::::He asks if we "want correct articles written by foul-mouthed assholes like" him, and I'm not sure he's going to like the answer to that.  If he wants to point out the problems with this system, I'm all for it, and I'll probably agree with most of what he says.  But if he's going to scream and hollar like a pissed-off teenager, then I've got better things to do.  <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">[[User:Wknight94|<span style="color: #EE5B0D;">Wknight94</span>]] [[User talk:Wknight94|<sup style="color: blue;">talk</sup>]]</span> 03:04, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:: I see no issues with upping his block to indef. at this point. –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 03:06, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Personally I intend to take his good advice and fuck off. If we all did the same, maybe he'll come back in a few weeks, apologise, and get on with contributing solid content. [[User talk:Hesperian|Hesperian]] 03:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::And that would help build an encyclopedia... how? [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 03:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::WTF?? [[User talk:Hesperian|Hesperian]] 03:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::I think I agree with Hesperian on this. I'm not familiar with Linas, but if this is not a long-time issue of incivility, then allow him to cool down and continue editing. The issue can always be reviewed in the future if this behaviour continues. Let's not keep stoking the fire. <span style="white-space:nowrap; text-shadow:gray 5px 3px 1px;">— [[User:Huntster|Huntster]] <small>([[User talk:Huntster|t]] [[Special:Emailuser/Huntster|@]] [[Special:Contributions/Huntster|c]])</small></span> 05:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::The chain of events seems to have started by [[User:Aboutmovies]] using an automated script to search for occurrences of [[Beyond Words Publishing]]. He picked up by accident an unrelated mathematics article on [[Trace monoid]] being edited by [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit]]. "Beyond words" was the title of a volume in a Springer series in the references there. In then trying to use the citation template, Aboutmovies missed the series option in the citation template. Although both editors were very polite, the automated script was not mentioned. A further discussion about citations for mathematics articles (with partially correct points on both sides) set the scene for linas' complete over-reaction. Best in the circumstances to blame that undeclared automated script as the true culprit here. These can often give rise to misunderstandings when there is a glitch. [[User:Mathsci|Mathsci]] ([[User talk:Mathsci|talk]]) 08:53, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::Hmmm, my road map doesn't connect undeclared automated scripts with "Fuck off asshole" and "assholes like you" and "Figure out what's wrong with your brain" and "acting like a total A-1 dick-weed!"[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Aboutmovies&diff=prev&oldid=313194805]  Now I'm fine with Hesperian's idea of waiting for an apology when Linas returns, but I would need odds to bet on that happening.  <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">[[User:Wknight94|<span style="color: #EE5B0D;">Wknight94</span>]] [[User talk:Wknight94|<sup style="color: blue;">talk</sup>]]</span> 12:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::The [[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3ALinas block log]] says Linas has been blocked before for the same issue. I would support an indef block. [[User:A little insignificant|A little insignificant]] ([[User talk:A little insignificant|talk]]) 16:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
{{hat|Off-topic baiting. Let's not go there, okay? &mdash; <b>[[User:HandThatFeeds|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS; color:DarkBlue;cursor:help">The Hand That Feeds You</span>]]:<sup>[[User talk:HandThatFeeds|Bite]]</sup></b> 13:19, 15 September 2009 (UTC)}}
::::::::::: I support a ban as long as [[User:Giano]] is immediately banned as well. After all, Linas only has about 20,000 constructive edits here, and 2-3 blockable outbursts of invectives. [[Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Archive_6#Giano_and_wtf.3F|Haven't we seen this before (liberal use of "fuck off" and even "cocksucker"?]] Oh, wait, Linas doesn't have any ArbCom friends... Carry on. [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit|Pcap]] [[User_talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit|<small>ping</small>]] 18:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
*If you are so desperate, and you seem to be, to include me in this discussion (about whatever, or whoever, it is you are discussing) get your facts straight. "Cocksucker" is not a word in my vocabulary, it is not one of the words I use. So on that premise, one can assume that all other that you say here is similarly badly researched and flawed. Now "'''go off'''" and do some basic research. [[User:GiacomoReturned|Giano]] ([[User talk:GiacomoReturned|talk]]) 21:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
** Please accept my apologies for any inappropriate comparisons, implications, or misquotes. The point I was trying to make is that's way easy to present an editor's contributions as a net negative through a few well (mis)quoted diffs&mdash;something I've (inadvertently) done myself right above. Back to the topic at hand: I don't know if Linas is going to change his current attitude, but the vast majority of his past contributions have been a net positive to Wikipedia. Granted, it's entirely possible that he may have just decided not to do that anymore. But poking the [[WP:BEAR]] on his talk page is only going to make that outcome more likely... [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit|Pcap]] [[User_talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit|<small>ping</small>]] 23:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::::Hmmm, anything can become a Giano thread, eh?  Big difference - in my mind anyway - is that Giano lashes out at people he has long histories with.  Some people should just not approach Giano, and those people generally know who they are, and several of those people generally ignore that obvious fact and approach him anyway.  Linas OTOH is in a state of lashing out at everyone and everything.  We can't have that.  <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">[[User:Wknight94|<span style="color: #EE5B0D;">Wknight94</span>]] [[User talk:Wknight94|<sup style="color: blue;">talk</sup>]]</span> 21:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
{{hab}}
*I thought this section opened with a request for someone to have a work with Linas - did this happen? I also note that there seems to be a lot of swearing and stuff happening on this editors talkpage, and that a lot of people have got their knickers in a twist about the naughty words being uttered - and it appears to be that a consensus is forming that Linas should be indef blocked for getting over enthusiastic in the haphazard flinging of rude words about his talkpage. I am not sure that this is really appropriate, and, in the absence of there appearing to be anyone willing to do it, I am going to see if there is any point or comment that Linas has in this matter. If there is something that I feel is relevant to this discussion I will bring it up back here. Could we hold off on the ban discussion until I do? Cheers, [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 20:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
**You're correct that I started the discussion with a request for counselling.  [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Linas&diff=prev&oldid=313694611 My attempt] at giving him an alternative to a block was too late (he was blocked one minute earlier), so it was met with [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Linas&diff=313697791&oldid=313697612 "Fuck you, Wknight94"].  I think that pretty much rules me out as a counselor, but hopefully someone else can be successful.  <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">[[User:Wknight94|<span style="color: #EE5B0D;">Wknight94</span>]] [[User talk:Wknight94|<sup style="color: blue;">talk</sup>]]</span> 21:20, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
** Yes, LessHeard, as I explained on your talk page, I've asked a couple of editors, who also happen to be admins, and which Linas may respect, to talk to Linas (privately); names withheld here because I don't want to repeat my mistake of involving 3rd parties against their will in a very public venue like this, as I've regretfully done with Giano above... FYI: I've contacted the first of them before I ever saw this thread. [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit|Pcap]] [[User_talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit|<small>ping</small>]] 23:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
***Thanks, LHVU, Pcap, and Wk94 for handling this. I really hope Linas can be a productive editor again, without the implosion that led to these blocks. Wk94, you said it well- "Linas OTOH is in a state of lashing out at everyone and everything." I probably didn't help by delaying to post the block notice, that was a [[WP:BEANS]] type issue, nothing intentional. [[User:Tedder|tedder]] ([[User talk:Tedder|talk]]) 00:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
**If you are including [[User:Hesperian|Hesperian]], [[User:Huntster|Huntster]], or me in that forming consensus for a permanent block that you are observing, then you are mis-reading what we wrote. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 14:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
For those advocating an indefinite block, I would just say that this incident strongly reminds me of outbursts that happened with [[User:Ed Poor]] and [[User:The Cunctator]] in the distant past. Both of those users went on to make huge contributions as Bureaucrats and Arbcom members. We all have bad days. Some of us (the most passionate types especially) can have REALLY bad days. Sometimes bad weeks. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 06:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

== Loosmark [[WP:AE|Arbitration Enforcement]] closure ==

{{resolved|After review by two further (uninvolved) admins, the original admin actions by Sandstein and AdjustShift were upheld. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 06:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)}}

Few days ago i got topic-banned on some articles by admin Sandstein. Since I felt that the decision was unjust I filled an appeal on the Arbitration Requests for Enforcement page. Now admin AdjustShift decided to examine and rejected my appeal [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&diff=313696494&oldid=313620393]. The thing is I had many issues with this Admin in the past (more than with any other on whole wikipedia), for example he once made a bogus accusation against me that "i'm constantly trolling", for which he made a half-baked appology only after i reported him, diffs of the case here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive549], scroll down it is case 88 named "accusations of trolling".

In this comment made on my talk page(!) [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Loosmark&diff=306052177&oldid=304353314] he failed to asume good faith over a comment where i critised him for something, i don't recall what, and claimed i did it "to settle old issues", note that he also himself comments about "disagreements" and "normalising our relationship". 

There were also other cases in the past where we argued because we had completely different positions (he usualy supported German POV while me of course Polish), on top of my head: the famous Molobo case, with secret evidence, Expulsion of Germans page (he made a controversial protection of the page, something i disagreed was necessary)
and other i don't remember. I can dig up the diffs if necessary. In any case given that AdjustShift and me had so many issues in the past and that our relationship was so bad that in his own words needed to be normalised, i think it is completely innapropriate for him to examine my appeal. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 02:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:If it helps at all, I would have closed it the same way.  I have to agree with Sandstein that you've gotten so involved in the area, you're starting to confuse editor's opinions about the content with what the editor themselves might believe.  He gave several good examples when closing the initial report.  Taking a breather from the area for a bit may help get your focus back. [[User:Shell_Kinney|Shell]]   <sup>[[User_talk:Shell_Kinney|babelfish]]</sup> 03:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::Either way, we should still fully adress AdjustShift's actions in this situation.--[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 03:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:::(edit conflict) Whatever the merits of Loosmark's appeal, there does appear to be a serious [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest conflict of interest] with regard to AdjustShift here. I was under the impression that the action on such cases should be made by '''uninvolved''' administrators and AdjustShift, due to his previous disputes with Loosmark, is obviously not uninvolved here (I believe Sandstein excused himself, rightly, from ruling on the appeal since himself was involved). It's also unclear - and problematic in my view - that AdjustShift ignored (as he himself states) all the comments made by users other than Loosmark, Faustian and Sandstein. I understand that sometimes these discussions get long but what's the point of letting outside editors comment if their input is just flushed down the toilet?[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 03:16, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:: Shell how was I so involved in the area if I only made 2 problematic edits in on a single talk page? Anyway with my appeal I was hoping to at least get a more narrow topic page on single a couple of pages (the reviewing Admin could have proposed alternative solutions). In any case i think I deserve to have my appeal examined by an Admin who wasn't involved in many disputes with me in the past. In my opinion what AdjustShift did sets a very bad example and should be reversed. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 03:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Sorry about that, I didn't mean the usual Wikipedia meaning of "involved" rather that something about the topic appears to cause you to overreact to the comments of other editors there.  However, if there's a consensus that AdjustShift shouldn't have closed the request (I actually thought those requests were supposed to go to the ArbCom clarifications board) then there's no reason it couldn't be reopened so another admin can evaluate the request.  Having already given my opinion, however, I would recuse from closing it as well. [[User:Shell_Kinney|Shell]]   <sup>[[User_talk:Shell_Kinney|babelfish]]</sup> 03:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::I would tend to agree that the request should be reopened, as per above. [[User:Sephiroth storm|Sephiroth storm]] ([[User talk:Sephiroth storm|talk]]) 03:36, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::I'm inclined to agree that reopening is the best course, however I'd like to hear from AdjustShift before proceeding any  further. I've left an invite on AdjustShift's page to that effect. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 04:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Regardless of the outcome, is the topic title appropriate? or is it biased? FWiW [[User:Bzuk|Bzuk]] ([[User talk:Bzuk|talk]]) 04:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC).

::::I've retitled it. [[user talk:Skomorokh|<span style="background:#222222; color:#ffffff; font-family:Goudy Old Style;">&nbsp;Skomorokh&nbsp;</span>]] 04:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

'''An uninvolved administrator review''' - I have just read all of the relevant materials in this dispute at [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Result_concerning_Loosmark_2]].

I concur with [[User:AdjustShift]]'s decision to reconfirm [[User:Sandstein]]'s original verdict. I also note that another uninvolved admin ([[User:CIreland]]) has also reviewed and concurred with the original Sandstein decision. 

I'll acknowledge that admin AdjustShift could have been a bit more diplomatic in his/her choice of words for the closure summary as "I ignored the comments of..." is always likely to be inflammatory when read out of context. But after reading everything I can see that what AdjustShift really meant was that there was nothing in any of those comments which impacted the judgement. (And every admin has been guilty of over-summarizing at some point or another.)

If needs be we can reopen the case and I'll promptly reclose it in my capacity as an indisputably uninvolved admin. Or we can just leave it as is. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 04:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:: Well rather than being a just a bit more diplomatic I think AdjustShift should have not examined the appeal in the first place since he was clearly involved in issues with me in the past. In regards with that I have a question, will AdjustShift's trying to pose as an uninvolved admin even be addressed in any way? I think it should not be swept under the carpet since otherwise such an incident can potentially repeat itself in the future. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 05:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Well before responding let me say that I have had no previous contact with AdjustShift (at least that I am aware of) so I am not speaking out of any particular loyalty to that user. I'll also note that the rules about being "uninvolved" exist to prevent the exercising of administrative power for any reason other than justice, fairness and the well-being of the encyclopedia project. 

:::If you attempted to launch some form of arbitration action against AdjustShift it would come down to an argument about the term "uninvolved". AdjustShift could easily argue that he/she had not been previously involved in this particular dispute so was acting as an "uninvolved" admin. (If admins were unilaterally barred from exercising authority over any and all users we had ever previously disciplined we would, as a collective body, become ineffective fairly quickly.)

:::As I see it, your complaint about AdjustShift being "previously involved" is effectively a claim that AdjustShift demonstrated "unfair bias" against you. However, so far two other admins ([[User:CIreland]] and myself) have reviewed and found no evidence of unfair bias and have supported [[User:Sandstein]]'s (and by default AdjustShift's) decision. Until there is evidence of AdjustShift being motivated by anything other than the welfare of the project, I would expect that any further attempts at arbitration would fail.

:::This is naturally not a statement of Wikipedia policy - it is merely the opinion of a single administrator. Others may or may not agree - such is the consensual nature of Wikipedia. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 05:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: Manning I've a couple of comments: I think that "uninvolved" clearly needs to be understood in the widest possible meaning. If not then the thing just doesn't work : for example if editor "A" and Admin "B" argue over some content issue on a page and editor "A" is at the same time reported for some completely separated thing somewhere else, Admin "B" can simply jump there and claim uninvolvement. Regarding the statement that ''If admins were unilaterally barred from exercising authority over any and all users we had ever previously disciplined we would, as a collective body, become ineffective fairly quickly.'' i'd like to note that: 
a) AdjustShift has never disciplined me, had he done that than yes i'd still have to prove he made a biased decision.
<br />b) Rather he himself characterised our relationship as being in need of normalising (thus according to his own words it was not a normal relationship).
<br />c) we argued quite a bit during the complain i filled against him for the trolling accusation
<br />d) afterwards he wrote that i'm trying "to settle old issues". I have of course not done that, but even if we for a second asume the best case scenario for him that i was indeed trying to settle old issues it still comes down to has grievance  because of it.
<br />In my opinion this case is as clearcut as possible because i'm not trying to demonstrate those things, he simply stated them. We have a smoking gun so to say. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 06:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC) 

::::We have a policy about this, [[WP:UNINVOLVED]], which says that interactions in an administrative capacity (or disagreements about them) do not constitute involvement. (For instance, I do not consider myself "involved" with respect to Loosmark in any future request for admin intervention just because I topic-banned Loosmark and he disagrees with it.) In this case, although not entirely clear, it seems that the dispute at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive549#accusation of trolling]] involved content disagreements about Germany and Poland, which would make AdjustShift involved at least with respect to actions related to such content, but since the issues here concern Ukraine and Poland, I don't know whether the subjects are closely enough related to count for involvement purposes (I know too little about WWII history). That question seems to be moot now because the appeal has been independently reviewed by other admins here. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 06:16, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Sandstein, I'm sorry but AdjustShift '''is not''' an uninvolved administrator. The issue concern Ukraine and Poland '''during WW2''' and German WW2 history is very relevant here. I remember AdjustShift being very involved and even defending German editor from being blocked while in dispute with Polish editors. Please look at his close relation[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sciurinæ#ERRRR]] with the editors who appeared from nowhere and commented against Loosmark[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Comment_on_Sciurin.C3.A6]]. Sorry but he is DEFINITELY not an uninvolved administrator I'm sorry to say that, but there is a huge unfairness going on here and I'm being more and more disappointed with the whole Wkipiedia experience and you, administrators.--[[User:Jacurek|Jacurek]] ([[User talk:Jacurek|talk]]) 06:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::''I remember AdjustShift being very involved and even defending German editor from being blocked while in dispute with Polish editors.'' This statement is 100% false. I have '''never''' considered an editor's nationality while making any decision as an admin. I'm not a German, and I don't speak a word of German language. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 15:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)  
::::::::; FALSE!? Then what was this????[[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sandstein&diff=301581443&oldid=301571717]]--[[User:Jacurek|Jacurek]] ([[User talk:Jacurek|talk]]) 04:18, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::My response: [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AdjustShift&diff=314343353&oldid=314288136]. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 14:12, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::: Sandstein would you please read this thread from the beginning including the the diffs that I've presented? Obviously I don't consider you to be involved in any future request against me based just on a ban you gave me, such a position would be completely crazy because we'd run out of uninvolved admins in two days that way. Equally I'm not saying that AdjustShift is to be considered involved based on his involvement in the German - Polish disagreements but rather on the things he said about me: that i'm trying to settle old issues with him, that our relationship is not normal, etc etc etc. (diffs are somewhere above). [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 06:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

[[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] & [[User:Jacurek|Jacurek]]: By all means launch any mediation/arbitration method about whether or not AdjustShift acted in an uninvolved capacity, as are your rights. 

However in regard to THIS specific matter (regarding the closure of the arbitration appeal by AdjustShift), a number of uninvolved admins have already weighed in to give their verdicts and as such this matter is now effectively closed. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 06:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:Huh, how closed? The specific matter here was my complain against the behavior of AdjustShift, I even titled the report that way, sb then retroactively changed my title to "Loosmark [[WP:AE|Arbitration Enforcement]] closure" without even consulting me. I'd like to know the opinion of other community members on this matter if you don't mind. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 07:15, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

::While making the final decision, I ignored the comments of Dr. Dan, Jacurek, Piotrus, Radeksz, and Sciurinæ. So even if I have "close relationship with Sciurinæ", it had zero effect on my final decision. I concentrated on Loosmark's appeal, the original request filed by Faustian, and Sandstein's comments; others comments were not a factor while making the decision. My decision was fair because as an admin, I don't take any side. Loosmark's allegation that I support "German POV" is false. I'm not a German, and my knowledge about Germany is limited. John Vandenberg knows where I'm from; I'm not from Germany. Why should I support "German POV" when I'm not ever a German? I can't ever speak a word of German language. An as admin, I'm neither pro-German nor pro-Polish. The fact is certain editors who happened to be Polish have shown poor behavior on en.wikipedia. I don't care whether editors are from Poland or Greenland; if their behavior is inappropriate, actions will be taken against them. Loosmark's wikilawering is getting out of control; if he/she doesn't stop we may have to ban this editor from en.wikipedia. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 15:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I think Loosmark's point is simply that closing the appeal by other admins is one thing - hence the "Resolved" - but that this report is another. Specifically it is about wrongful behavior by AdjustShift (and btw, it doesn't matter what a person's nationality is, one can still be involved or biased). An admin should not act on reports involving users he's had disputes (other than just ruling on reports involving them) with in the past and with regard to whom s/he has a potential conflict of interest. I think Loosmark was basically asking that this matter be clarified to AdjustShift so similar abuses do not take place in the future.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 15:50, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:Radeksz, I have no dispute with Loosmark on any Ukrainian-Polish article. The final decision of Sandstein was endorsed by two other admins apart from me. No abuse has taken place, I think we should move on. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 16:04, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I have explicitly stated that i don't consider AdjustShift involved because of some general involved in the Polish-German area, or his German POV, or the close relatioship with Sciunarae (i have not even mentioned him) but because of the things he said about me: bogus accusation of trolling, that our relationship is not normal, that i'm trying to settle old scores etc etc. diffs were provided above. I would also like to note that at least 3 other people here already tended to agree with my view. His direct threat above that i might be "banned from en.wikipedia" (!??) is a clear indication that he still holds grudges against me. As radek stated above I just want this matter to be clarified. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 16:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:My comment that Loosmark might be banned from en.wikipedia is a clear indication that Loosmark's behavior is inappropriate, and his/her wikilawering is uncalled-for. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 00:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Uh, what? Your comment that Loosmark might be banned is proof that Loosmark's behavior is inappropriate? (I know that's verbatim but I repeated it just because it doesn't make any sense) As opposed to any kind of actual behavior on Loosmark's part? A "clear indication" does not occur because somebody says so without explaining why. This appears to be a clear cut example of [[circular logic]]. But it does show that you have formed some damaging pre-conceptions in regard to this user and should clearly excuse yourself from any future interactions with him, in all capacities as an administrator.
:::If I said that "My comment that AdjustShift is not qualified to be an administrator on en.wikipedia is a clear indication that AdjustShifts behavior constitutes an abuse of administrator privileges and his/her privileges should be revoked" how good of an argument would that be?[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 01:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:: ''My comment that Loosmark might be banned from en.wikipedia is a clear indication that Loosmark's behavior is inappropriate'' <br />I think "your comment" that Loosmark might be banned comes a bit short of being a "clean indication" that my behavior is inappropriate. But you are of course free to report me if you feel so. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 01:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::: This attempt [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sandstein&diff=313871620&oldid=313865586] to get me blocked while this ANI discussion is in progress is also a bit weird, because i don't think anybody here felt i was disruptive in any way and i think Sandstein's reply was quite correct. [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sandstein&diff=313875601&oldid=313871620]. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 02:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC) 

More generally, to the reviewing administrators; look, I know there's already a "resolved" check mark above and Loosmark's appeal has been denied by truly uninvolved, no COI having, admins. That's fine, except the check mark has been placed there without actually addressing the purpose of this report. I think it would really be 'resolved' if just a note is made letting AdjustShift know that he should not involve himself in ruling on reports which involve users that he's had personal conflicts with. That's all. Just a clarification here is sufficient and then that's it.[[User:Radeksz|radek]] ([[User talk:Radeksz|talk]]) 01:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:Loosmark has offered a deal on my talk page, and I've accepted it.[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AdjustShift&diff=314109198&oldid=314018549] From today's onward, I'll stay out of Loosmark's business, and Loosmark will stay out of my business. I'll not close anything (AE thread, ANI thread) related to Loosmark. I'll not comment on Loosmark, and Loosmark will not comment on me. After thinking long and hard about it, I have concluded that it would be better if both of us will not poke our nose in each other's business. Loosmark will walk his way, I will walk my way, but we will not cross each other's path. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 14:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

== BillTunell and userboxes ==

I recently discovered that {{user|BillTunell}} had been reformating several university student/alumni userboxes to include the school's (possibly) copyrighted logos. I've gone back and fixed all I could. I'm [[User:BQZip01/FBS Trademarked logos|not exactly sure]] about the fair use/non-free content aspect of these images, but something should be done.

The short version: BillTunell (possibly) enabled fair use images to exist outside of the article space by using them in userboxes.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 04:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:FWIW, I have not inserted any images with a copyright notice (circle-c), and all the images I have inserted were tagged with the {{tl|PD-textlogo}} template.  Some of these templates have since been changed to {{tl|Non-free logo|academic sports logos}}, but using any images with such a tag was never my intention.  If the adminstrators wish to consider some {{tl|PD-textlogo}} images to be copyrightable under the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_of_originality| threshold of originality] standard (despite a public-domain tag and despite the lack of a filed copyright or copyright notice (circle-c)), then I will abide by those decisions.  My problem is that Ryulong eliminated all my prior work wholesale, without prior notice or discussion, without bothering to research the underlying standard of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_of_originality| threshold of originality], and while obviously suffering from confusion about trademark-versus-copyright notices/protection.

:Four other quick points: 

::(1) Any number of other userboxes have been updated by other users with {{tl|PD-textlogo}} images (''e.g.'' Princeton, Michigan State, Stanford, Arkansas, Rutgers, Texas Tech) -- so if we are going to re-evaluate that policy, those images need to be deleted in addition to the ones I've worked on,
::(2) Ryulong's revisions eliminated a lot of non-image-related work I did in terms of matching usebox colors to offical University-dictated web-publishing code numbers, eliminating category links, etc.,
::(3) many images, including the Texas A&M image, have already been accepted on wikimedia commons as free images, and
::(4) a separate user reverted my update to the {{tlu|User:UBX/MLB-Phillies}} userbox, which update is simlar in nature to this discussion, and which reversion I would seek permission to undo.

:All of the above being said, I will not amend any further userboxes until this is resolved, and will, of course, abide by any decision of the adminstrators. [[User:BillTunell|BillTunell]] ([[User talk:BillTunell|talk]]) 17:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC) 

::Most of the logos at [[User:BQZip01/FBS Trademarked logos]] are [[public domain]] as they are in [[typeface]] see [[WP:Public domain#Fonts]] for info. [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 04:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::This is currently being investigated, because many of them are unique and not simple typefaces and may not be in the public domain. I know that the University of Miami's logo is not a simple font logo.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 04:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Where is it being investigated?  I've never seen a good way to decide. - [[User:Peregrine Fisher|Peregrine Fisher]] ([[User talk:Peregrine Fisher|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Peregrine_Fisher|contribs]]) 05:01, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::I pointed it out to users who are savvy with copyright information and they are going to check the images to tell if they are actually not copyrightable and are merely trademarks.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 05:12, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Yes but some of the logos you removed like [[:File:ArizonaWildcats.png]] and [[:File:Vanderbilt Commodores.png]] are in typefaces and are in the public domain. Also just because a logo has color and simple [[geometric shape]]s doe's not make it copyrighted please see [[Template talk:PD-textlogo]]. [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 05:04, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::It is not positive that these items are officially in the public domain because someone designed the stylized A for [[:File:ArizonaWildcats.png]] and someone came up with putting a V inside of that star for [[:File:Vanderbilt Commodores.png]]. BQZip01 (and other users) [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=File:Vanderbilt_Commodores.png&diff=268105159&oldid=250830103 changed the copyright tags] on all the images. Just because someone tagged an image with {{tl|PD-textlogo}} does not automatically mean it is and always has been in the public domain.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 05:12, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::The A in [[:File:ArizonaWildcats.png]] is in [[antiqua]] so it is public domain and a V inside of a star can not be copyrighted as it typefaces inside of a simple [[geometric shape]] again see [[Template talk:PD-textlogo]] for info. [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 05:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Just because one user decided to assume that the image is in the public domain '''does not mean''' that the image is in fact in the public domain.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 05:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::To paraphrase, just because one user decided to assume that the image is in the non-free '''does not mean''' that the image is in fact non-free. [[User:BQZip01|<span style="background-color:maroon; color:white;">'''—&nbsp;''BQZip01''&nbsp;—'''</span>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User_talk:BQZip01|talk]]</sup> 07:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::Someone thinking an image is free to use puts Wikipedia in more legal trouble if it is in fact not free to use.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 07:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::So why even have the tag or allow "free" images at all. Surely someone might think they aren't free, but that isn't our standard. [[User:BQZip01|<span style="background-color:maroon; color:white;">'''—&nbsp;''BQZip01''&nbsp;—'''</span>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User_talk:BQZip01|talk]]</sup> 04:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Me mistake the A is in [[Rockwell (typeface)]] not [[antiqua]]. [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 01:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I looked at some of the images in question; I believe the Vanderbilt image is public domain; it is a common V placed on a star with outlines. However, I do not believe the Arizona one is. Sure, the outline is easy to do, but I am thinking more with the way the red A is drawn with some sort of creativity. I am talking to other image admins now, but I don't expect this issue to be solved in the next few hours. To sum it up, there are some legit PD logos in the mix, but many are questionable. [[User:Zscout370]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Zscout370|(Return Fire)]]</sup></small> 05:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
* I'd agree with that - the Arizona one probably crosses the threshold of originality, and of course we should default to it being non-free, whilst the Vanderbilt one almost certainly doesn't. One should not make the mistake of thinking that just because a logo only contains lettering it is PD.  That is not necessarily the case. [[User talk:Black Kite|<b style="color:black;">Black Kite</b>]] 06:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
*:Just because you think it crosses the threshold doesn't make it so. Typographic ornamentation is specifically mentioned by the U.S. Copyright Office as something that does NOT make something copyrightable. [[User:BQZip01|<span style="background-color:maroon; color:white;">'''—&nbsp;''BQZip01''&nbsp;—'''</span>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User_talk:BQZip01|talk]]</sup> 07:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

'''UPDATE:''' Administrators allowed me to revert back my prior userbox editions.  Other than Miami and Tulane, I will do so.  [[User:BillTunell|BillTunell]] ([[User talk:BillTunell|talk]]) 21:28, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

===Related issue with Nickelodeon logos===
A second view needed; the [[Nickelodeon (TV network)|Nickelodeon]] networks are changing their logos on September 28 and I uploaded [[:File:TeenNicklogo2009.png|this logo]] a month ago for [[TeenNick]] under a non-free fair use license, as is the usual case with all logos involving [[WP:TVS]] subjects. However Powergate has been modifying the license to be public domain-trademarked instead, claiming in a [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mrschimpf&diff=313494267&oldid=313277101 response to me] after I reverted to fair-use licensing that they are PD because it is just a font and because of certain glyphs in the font cited, while I am under the assumption that the typeface is actually a copyrighted font custom-designed for Viacom and thus meets fair-use much more as a logo than as just an illustration of letters. I would like a determination if fair-use non-free is the appropriate license in these cases.

Other examples of Nickelodeon logos which I feel are incorrectly licensed as PD;

*[[:File:Nickelodeon logo new.svg]]
*[[:File:Nicktoons Network logo 2009.svg]]
*[[:File:Nick at Nite logo 2009.svg]]
*[[:File:Nick Jr. logo 2009.svg]] <font face="Myriad Web">'''[[User:Mrschimpf|<span style="color:forestgreen">Nate</span>]]''' <span style="color:dark blue">•</span> <small>''([[User_talk:Mrschimpf|<span style="color:dodgerblue">chatter</span>]])''</small></font> 06:40, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:(I'm a lawyer, but not from the US and not a copyright expert.) AFAIK, and as explained at [[Wikipedia:Public domain#Fonts]], fonts are not subject to copyright, at least not their letter shapes. The ''font files'' may be protected as computer software, but that's not the issue here. The logos consist mostly of text and are therefore probably PD in copyright terms (trademark protection etc. still applies). <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 13:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:(And this is also not a subject for ANI, but belongs on some image-specific noticeboard, which we surely have somewhere... <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<font style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-
serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</font>]]</span></small> 13:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC))

::Indeed we do: [[WP:MCQ]].&nbsp;–&nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 14:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:As I said on your talk page Mrschimpf, the i is in [[Fraktur (script)]] and the other letters are in [[Didone]]. [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 17:07, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::Powergate, do you have a source about the fonts used? [[User:Zscout370]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Zscout370|(Return Fire)]]</sup></small> 19:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:::The i in [[:File:Fraktur walbaum.png|this image]] from the [[Fraktur (script)]] article looks about the same as the i in the Nickelodeon logos! As you can see if you look at the logos the other letters look like they are in [[Didone]]. [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 22:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::I ask this in all seriousness, because it is the only possible explanation: do you have some form of visual impairment of which we should be aware? I'm not entirely conversant with the technical language of font descriptions, but the 'i' in Fraktur and the one in the Nickelodeon logo are similar only inasmuch as they are both recognisably the letter 'i.' As for claiming the rest of the Nickelodeon logo is in Didone... seriously? You're seriously saying this? Didone is a serif font, and the Nick logo is ''sans''-serif. →&nbsp;[[User:Roux|<span style="color:#00009C;font-size:80%;">'''ROUX'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Roux|<span style="color:#00009C;">'''₪'''</span>]]<small>&nbsp;22:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)</small>
:::::This does not appear to be an entirely civil comment ''or'' edit summary for this edit.--[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 23:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Not that your opinion means...well...''anything'' to me at all, but the visual impairment question was in fact honest. There is no similarity between the 'i' letters at all (notice the serifs on Fraktur, the rounded nature of the Nick logo, etc), and even less similarity between the Nick logo (rounded, sans-serif, square bottoms) and Didone (slim, serif, angular, modern). Powergate quite simply has no idea what he's talking about. →&nbsp;[[User:Roux|<span style="color:#801818;font-size:80%;">'''ROUX'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Roux|<span style="color:#801818;">'''₪'''</span>]]<small>&nbsp;03:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)</small>
:::::Look at the top of the i in the image and then look at the top of the i in the Nickelodeon logos the top of i's are about same the only difference is in the Nickelodeon logos the bottom of the i is cut off, just because the bottom of the i is cut off doe's not make it copyrighted as it is not original enough, see [[Threshold of originality#Typefaces and geometry]]. Also "do you have some form of visual impairment" is a [[WP:No personal attacks|personal attack]]. [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 01:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::See my comment above. Both Fraktur and Didone are ''serif'' fonts. The Nick logo is ''sans-serif''. Do you know what these words mean? You are completely and totally wrong about this, which is why I asked if you had a visual impairment. If you are using screen magnification software or have visual problems your confusion would be explained. As it is, there is simply no way to state in any sort of seriousness that a) the fonts you stated are even remotely close to the font in the Nick logo, or b) that those specific fonts were used in the logo. None whatsoever. →&nbsp;[[User:Roux|<span style="color:#801818;font-size:80%;">'''ROUX'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Roux|<span style="color:#801818;">'''₪'''</span>]]<small>&nbsp;03:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)</small>
::::::I can see where some of the fonts look like, but other than comparisons, do we have anything from, lets say, a news release or something else? I feel the logos might be PD, but I am not fully convinced yet if this was using public domain fonts or some kind of special creation for this logo. [[User:Zscout370]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Zscout370|(Return Fire)]]</sup></small> 01:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::I found a news article about the logos[http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118006659.html?categoryid=14&cs=1] but it doe's not say if the logos are copyrighted or anything about the fonts. [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 02:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Copyright isn't an issue anymore; with the changes of the US Copyright Laws in 1978, copyright is automatic. We have a burden to prove that these images are in the public domain. If not, then off to fair use land it goes. [[User:Zscout370]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Zscout370|(Return Fire)]]</sup></small> 02:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::I think we should discuss this at [[WP:Media copyright questions]]. [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 05:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::That they are even a set of letters is all that is necessary for them to be a typeface. The name of the font is irrelevant. [[User:BQZip01|<span style="background-color:maroon; color:white;">'''—&nbsp;''BQZip01''&nbsp;—'''</span>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User_talk:BQZip01|talk]]</sup> 07:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::::That is, in fact, the direct opposite of 'correct'. The specific wordmark could have been designed from scratch without creating a whole alphabet, making it a wholly created thing, instead of being assembled from an extant font. →&nbsp;[[User:Roux|<span style="color:#00009C;font-size:80%;">'''ROUX'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Roux|<span style="color:#00009C;">'''₪'''</span>]]<small>&nbsp;15:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)</small>
::::::::::::U.S. Courts disagree: [[Threshold_of_originality#Typefaces_and_geometry]] and you don't need a whole alphabet to make it a typeset. [[User:BQZip01|<span style="background-color:maroon; color:white;">'''—&nbsp;''BQZip01''&nbsp;—'''</span>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User_talk:BQZip01|talk]]</sup> 16:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::::::A few letters is not a typeface. Sorry. →&nbsp;[[User:Roux|<span style="color:#082567;font-size:80%;">'''ROUX'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Roux|<span style="color:#082567;">'''₪'''</span>]]<small>&nbsp;16:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)</small>
::::::::::::::Roux, it doesn't have to be a whole alfabet. I'm forced to agree with BQZip01 based on the link above.--[[User:Sky Attacker|<b style="font-family:Rockwell; color:gray;">Sky Attacker</b>]]   [[User talk:Sky Attacker|<span style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Rockwell; color:red;">Here comes the bird!</span>]] 22:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::What Sky said. The courts have ruled the opposite (please read the link above; it is about [[:File:SKYYVodka_logo_vert_color_pc.svg|this logo]], as another example. [[User:BQZip01|<span style="background-color:maroon; color:white;">'''—&nbsp;''BQZip01''&nbsp;—'''</span>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User_talk:BQZip01|talk]]</sup> 03:34, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

===Another related issue===
User:ZScout has taken it upon himself to unilaterally delete several images that consist entirely of text and/or simple geometric shapes. I request that they all be restored as improper speedy deletions.
:[[:File:ASUinterlock.gif]]
:[[:File:AzSt.gif]]
:[[:File:Colorado.gif]]
:[[:File:UT&Tmark.png]]
:[[:File:Tulane shield web.png]] *note that this one was deleted after someone changed the file tag. Needs to be fixed.
:[[:File:Akron.gif]]

While I view these as clear PD images, it doesn't mean they can't have a valid use and a FUR even if they aren't PD. Speedy deletion isn't appropriate here. [[User:BQZip01|<span style="background-color:maroon; color:white;">'''—&nbsp;''BQZip01''&nbsp;—'''</span>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User_talk:BQZip01|talk]]</sup> 05:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:nearly 2 days and no feedback from anyone? Hello...anyone home? [[User:BQZip01|<span style="background-color:maroon; color:white;">'''—&nbsp;''BQZip01''&nbsp;—'''</span>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User_talk:BQZip01|talk]]</sup> 02:10, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

== Cleanup project ==

{{resolved|The information in question has been deleted, and there doesn't appear to be any further useful discussion that can occur here.  [[User:Lankiveil|Lankiveil]] <sup>([[User talk:Lankiveil|speak to me]])</sup> 08:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)}}

Ive been running some text analysis scripts across wikipedia, and Ive discovered that we are missing a lot of vandalism and that we use a LOT of email addresses. This proposes several issues. having someone's email address on wikipedia is a really easy for spammers to get their email address and render their accounts useless due to spam. if we are going to include the addressed we should obsucate the address to reduce the ability for spammers to harvest the addresses. [[User:Betacommand/Log]] is a current logfile for the scanner. Any hands willing to help are welcome. [[User talk:Betacommand|β<sup><sub>command</sub></sup>]] 18:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

:You're worried about the use of email addresses in Wikipedia, so you've compiled a list of all of them on one handy page?  For what it's worth I think your idea is useful.  Real people wanting to use their own email addresses on talk pages is a bad idea, but it's up to them.  But how do we know the address is theirs and not someone elses? [[User:NotAnIP83:149:66:11|NotAnIP83:149:66:11]] ([[User talk:NotAnIP83:149:66:11|talk]]) 18:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:that page should be cleared out quickly so it will not be an issue, but verification of these addresses is a issue along with the fact that these are introduced with vandalism at times also. [[User talk:Betacommand|β<sup><sub>command</sub></sup>]] 18:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
:: I have deleted the page.  Compiling and presenting sensitive information like that is very bad idea.  Admins who are interested can still work on it while it is deleted.  Please inform oversight-l if there are any problems which appear to need suppression. <span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] <sup>'''([[User talk:John Vandenberg|chat]])'''</sup></span> 00:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::::John where should i forward what Ive found so it can be addressed? its too much work for a single user, especially me due to the edit rate limit im under. [[User talk:Betacommand|β<sup><sub>command</sub></sup>]] 12:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Arn't you banned from using any sort of automated anything? [[User:Jtrainor|Jtrainor]] ([[User talk:Jtrainor|talk]]) 01:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Im prevented from running automated editing tools. This particular tool does not edit and is not covered by the restrictions. [[User talk:Betacommand|β<sup><sub>command</sub></sup>]] 12:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::::This is not automated editing. I don't think any restriction prevents BC from using a computer to compile stuff, and post it here (or from using a computer for that matter ;)). -- [[User:Luk|<span style="color:#002BB8;">Luk</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Luk|<span style="color:#FF3300;">talk</span>]]</sup> 06:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::::: Actually, the restriction in question: <br>
For one year, you are (i) topic-banned from any non-free-content-related work and related talk pages; (ii) subject to a 0RR restriction on any free-content-image-related work and related talk pages; (iii) <b>prohibited from operating bots or running automated scripts of whatever nature;</b> (iv) prohibited from inducing or attempting to induce others to operate bots or run automated scripts; and (v) subject to an editing throttle of a maximum of four edits every ten minutes (excludes reversion of blatant vandalism). After six months, you may apply to ArbCom for a review of the terms of this condition.
<br>
Suggests that he shouldn't be running scripts.
<span style="color:#333;font-face:Trebuchet MS;solid #FAECC8;background-color:#FAF6ED;padding:2px 15px;letter-spacing: 1px;"><sub>[[User:KoshVorlon|Naluboutes, Nalubotes]]</sub><i>[[User:KoshVorlon|<b><sup> Aeria gloris, Aeria gloris</sup></b>]]</i></span> 12:53, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:Arbcom can only control what and how I edit, what and how I read wikipedia is not within their control. If arbcom really was talking about non editing scripts they would have blanked and protected my monobook also, but since I still have numerous tools that assist and change my wikipedia interface it must mean that they are only referring to editing scripts. (take a note a my toolserver access and the tools that I host there also). [[User talk:Betacommand|β<sup><sub>command</sub></sup>]] 16:49, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::{{facepalm}} Beta, I'm not taking sides here. But this is really splitting a fine enough hair, I think you're asking for trouble. Trying to find a loophole here is just going to stir up more drama. &mdash; <b>[[User:HandThatFeeds|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS; color:DarkBlue;cursor:help">The Hand That Feeds You</span>]]:<sup>[[User talk:HandThatFeeds|Bite]]</sup></b> 22:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::I don't know, I'm no supporter of BC, but I can't really see any problem with using scripts or automated tools to ''read'' information, so long as he doesn't use scripts or automated tools to edit anything.  And for what it's worth, I think this is quite a useful application of Beta's scripting skills.  [[User:Lankiveil|Lankiveil]] <sup>([[User talk:Lankiveil|speak to me]])</sup> 08:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC).
::: Indeed, by this logic, he would be unable to use the find command in his browser on wikipedia. He is basically generating management reports - how is that problematical? --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 08:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
*Betacommand, I strongly advise you stop using scripts in any work you conduct in your life until this ban is suspended. Obviously, the people who are supporting this ban believe that their remit extends beyond Wikipedia, and you can not use any automated tools for anything. Turn off your coffee machine (especially if it has an auto-start in the morning function), your refrigerator (it has a self defrosting mechanism), don't use your car, and whatever you do don't even THINK of using your cell phone. Reality check; Betacommand's work in this section changed nothing on Wikipedia. --[[User:Hammersoft|Hammersoft]] ([[User talk:Hammersoft|talk]]) 15:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:Hammersoft, are filling in for Bugs today with that reply? :) --[[Special:Contributions/98.182.55.163|98.182.55.163]] ([[User talk:98.182.55.163|talk]]) 18:35, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::I strongly object to Betacommand --[[Special:Contributions/212.183.134.210|212.183.134.210]] ([[User talk:212.183.134.210|talk]]) 12:36, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Hey folks, this is an approved project for cleanup of Wikipedia.  Don't get upset about it, please :) [[User:Keegan|Keegan]] ([[User talk:Keegan|talk]]) 05:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== User UNIUMIA ==

User UNIUMIA has only made one contribution to Wikipedia, which is to cast a vote to keep an article at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Iron Arrow Honor Society]].  Given two editors have displayed an emotional attachment to this article (as opposed to finding a relevant citation) this may be vote stacking. [[User:Racepacket|Racepacket]] ([[User talk:Racepacket|talk]]) 08:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:This is assuming extreme bad faith. I am not aware who UNIUMIA is, but the issue as to his or her contributions should be kept solely at the AFD discussion, where the closing administrator will consider the response adequately.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 08:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::I'd suggest that tag them as a potential single purpose account using {{tl|SPA}} per the normal procedure for AFDs. [[User:Nick-D|Nick-D]] ([[User talk:Nick-D|talk]]) 10:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Agreed, but it [[WP:AGF|isn't really enough]] to suggest that they're meat or sockpuppets. [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 03:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[User:UweBayern]] ==

{{User|UweBayern}}, who has recently proposed the [[:Category:Holocaust survivors]] for deletion ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009_September_15&diff=prev&oldid=314043681]) has recently been permanently blocked from editing on German Wikipedia on the grounds of being a hard-core POV-pusher and disruptive editor ([http://de.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Spezial:Logbuch&type=block&page=Benutzer%3AUweBayern]). 1 +1 = 2, don't you agree? --[[User:RCS|RCS]] ([[User talk:RCS|talk]]) 08:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:de.wp stuff does not necessarily affect en.wp, and vice versa. Ditto in regards to the other language Wikipedias. However, I would suggest that someone well-versed in the areas he edits in examine UweBayern's edits to make sure there's no POV-pushing here. -<font color="32CD32">''[[User:Jéské Couriano|Jeremy]]''</font> <font color="4682B4"><sup>([[User talk:Jéské Couriano|v^_^v]] [[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Tear him for his bad verses!]])</sup></font> 08:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:: I'd just like to note judging from his talk page [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:UweBayern] seems he's trying to edit war on the [[Hans Krüger]] page to whitewash some info he doesn't like. He also made some revert on the [[Expulsion of Germans after World War II]] page claiming consensus where quite clearly there was none. He seems to have a history of falsely accusing people of vandalism, too. Just an example today he reverted this very good faith advice given to him by Skaperod [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:UweBayern&diff=314045918&oldid=314045884] with "rv trolling". Seems that the German Wikipedia got at least the disruptive part right. Btw I completely don't get why would anybody want to delete the Holocaust survivors category, it's a very important category. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 11:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Uwe made a good edit at the [[Expulsion of Germans after World War II]], it improved the article. The user was bold but made the mistake of not going to the talk page first. I hope he does not revert and start an edit war that will get him blocked. Deleting [[:Category:Holocaust survivors]] is not a good idea, it will not fly here on English Wikipedia.--[[User:Woogie10w|Woogie10w]] ([[User talk:Woogie10w|talk]]) 20:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: I'm not sure which edit you mean, both edits he made today are problematic, I don't see any others. In any case having made a good edit somewhere is not an excuse for other behavior as i'm sure it would be hard to find an editor who never made good edits. Seems that his permanent block on German wikipedia made him more combative, describing reverts as "rv vandalism" or "rv trolling" where clearly they are not, can be seen as disruptive. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 21:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

== Articles linking to userspace ==

Ive always been told that links to userspace from articles where not allowed. Has this changed? we have multiple articles linking to [[User:TripEricson/READS Ranks]]. [[User talk:Betacommand|β<sup><sub>command</sub></sup>]] 12:11, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:I see little reason to link this userpage.  If the Reads ranks are relevant to the articles then linking the source directly is obviously better.  In general I see no reason for any links from article space into userspace.  [[User:Taemyr|Taemyr]] ([[User talk:Taemyr|talk]]) 12:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:There is [[Special:AbuseFilter/176]] which logs new links, but I think it was turned off last month. I would suggest talking to the user about moving it in to article space if appropriate.--[[User:Otterathome|Otterathome]] ([[User talk:Otterathome|talk]]) 12:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:: Indeed, should be removed. --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 12:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::: (Edit conflict) Actually i think it's a piece of Original research.  It's unfortunate that Nielsen takes exception to our use of it's system, but before we can use another system we need it to be published in a reliable source.  So I think we should recomend to Ericson that he first gets his data material puplished in reliable sources before seeking to get it incorporated into wikipedia.  [[User:Taemyr|Taemyr]] ([[User talk:Taemyr|talk]]) 12:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::::Either it merits an article, and I think it has issues with that or it should not be linked to from articles. We should not link to userspace from articles like this. [[User talk:Chillum|<font color='#1A8A0F'>'''Chillum'''</font>]] 12:24, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::: (goes to google) Ah - yes it is - the links should be removed and the page deleted - we are not a promotional tool. --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 12:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::: I don't think it's intended as a promotional tool.  Assuming good faith I believe that the editor in question percieved the need for a rating system not under a propriatary license and set about creating one.  However, lacking proper editorial control and fact checking we just can't use it.  [[User:Taemyr|Taemyr]] ([[User talk:Taemyr|talk]]) 12:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Sever all links to the userspace page. If this ranking system does exist, and isn't something they made up one day, then it should have it's own article. In fact looking at the page linked in that screen, it is indeed something they just made up to not step on Neilson's toes. [[User:Canterbury Tail|<font color="Blue">'''Canterbury Tail'''</font>]] [[User talk:Canterbury Tail|''<font color="Blue">talk</font>'']] 12:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

: From their website ''Q. Why does READS exist? Why not use the Nielsen DMA rankings? In 2008, Nielsen sent a cease and desist notice to Wikipedia over its use of the Nielsen DMA system. It was at that time that the determination was made to discontinue use of the Nielsen ranking system on RabbitEars and instead generate a solution.'' so it was made-up to solve a problem here. I cannot find any coverage of this system in reliable sources. --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 12:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: I have removed the links from the article space to the user space. Perhaps someone with more time can talk to the user and/or nominate the article for deletion. [[User talk:Chillum|<font color='#1D880F'>'''Chillum'''</font>]] 12:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

What's also problematic is that stations have been ranked using this original research. --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 12:35, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: File for [[WP:MfD]]. I am too tired to do a good job of it right now myself. [[User talk:Chillum|<font color='#208710'>'''Chillum'''</font>]] 12:43, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


Sure - can someone with more skill than me, removing the ranking column from the tables where that link was, because it's unverifiable. --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 12:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

If anybody's bored and has some free time, there's a lot more need dealing with, [[Wikipedia:Database reports/Articles containing links to the user space]]--[[User:Jac16888|<font color="Blue">Jac</font><font color="Green">16888</font>]][[User talk:Jac16888|<sup><font color="red">Talk</font></sup>]] 12:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: That looks like a job for a bot. [[User talk:Chillum|<font color='#218610'>'''Chillum'''</font>]] 12:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Not really, The links are too varied, there's people adding sigs because they don't know better, ones put in as vandalism, links to user sandbox articles, non-notable people linking designers, staff memberrs etc to their userpage, people putting "photo by....." that kind of stuff, it really needs a human involved--[[User:Jac16888|<font color="Blue">Jac</font><font color="Green">16888</font>]][[User talk:Jac16888|<sup><font color="red">Talk</font></sup>]] 12:51, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::{{doing}} with AWB. –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 13:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::{{done}}, save for some false positives and legitimate uses. –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 13:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: See [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Television_Stations/Archive_9#Rankings_of_Network_Affiliates]] for more about what lead up to this. [[User talk:Chillum|<font color='#248510'>'''Chillum'''</font>]] 12:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Discussion on this matter has taken place multiple times and was settled among WPTVA as the best available option.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_television_stations_in_North_America_by_media_market
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Television_Stations/Archive_9#Rankings_of_Network_Affiliates
Quite honestly, there's no better ranking system available.  I've offered to file an OTRS ticket to give Wikipedia full permission to use the ranks if that's what would be necessary to ensure they don't get removed over copyright concerns, which are based on census data and real world signal coverage and I don't claim to hold any exclusive right to them.  [[User:TripEricson|TripEricson]] ([[User talk:TripEricson|talk]]) 13:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:: But it's straight OR - in a number of places you yourself discuss how you are still working on the system or that it needs tweaking. Here's the very simple question - has any reliable source a) discussed your ranking system b) made any claim that it is a reliable ranking system? --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 13:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::: I declared it finished back at the beginning of August.  The next update to it will be when Census data for 2010 is released, and that will only be an update of population numbers, not of which market which area is assigned to.  Quite honestly, nobody is going to talk about my ranking system because the rest of the industry uses the Nielsen DMAs, which are themselves proprietary information Wikipedia is not allowed to use.  I get lots of e-mails from TV station engineers who use the information on my site and enjoy the fact that the rankings are based on actual signal coverage rather than on political boundaries, and there's at least one person who is working on a thesis based on the information (not certain of the specific subject). I know Wikipedia likes to be able to verify things, but upon discussing it with a number of people, it was decided that having data that is prefaced as being not what is officially in use is better than having nothing. Something about ignoring rules to improve Wikipedia. Admittedly, I don't spend as much time around here as many others do, so I don't know all the details, I just went with the flow of others. [[User:TripEricson|TripEricson]] ([[User talk:TripEricson|talk]]) 13:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: [[WP:IAR]] cannot be invoked in situations like this.  ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 13:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: <small>([[Help:Edit conflict|edit conflict]])</small> [[WP:NOT#OR|Wikipedia is not the place]] for this kind of [[WP:NOR|original research]]. It runs counter to the basic principles of the project. [[WP:IAR|Ignoring the rules]] for the benefit of the project is not inclusive with ignoring or rejecting the fundamental principles underlying the rules. [[User:Vassyana|Vassyana]] ([[User talk:Vassyana|talk]]) 13:24, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::::: So what is the alternative?  There is no alternate ranking system available that I am aware of that isn't 40 years out of date or completely irrelevant to TV markets other than the Nielsen DMA system that cannot be used.  [[User:TripEricson|TripEricson]] ([[User talk:TripEricson|talk]]) 13:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::: '''So what is the alternative?''' That we have ''nothing''. If we can't verify it, we don't use it, it's that simple. We most certainly do not engage in original research to fill the gap. --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 13:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::: Concurring with Cameron Scott. If reliable sources don't cover it than neither do we (according to the principles embodied by [[WP:V|verifiability]] and [[WP:UNDUE|due weight]] as well as those that I've noted above). [[User:Vassyana|Vassyana]] ([[User talk:Vassyana|talk]]) 13:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::: So, what is original research?  I've never seen anything that satisfactorily answers the question of why my website, which is fact checked thoroughly before being updated, is not more reliable than an article that has very clearly pulled incorrect information out of Wikipedia and is then cited as a source for that incorrect information.  But because it was published by said source, that makes it more reliable than my edit based on multiple viewer accounts and/or communications with the station in question and/or multiple first-person observations of the station in question?
::::::: Admittedly, I know this isn't really relevant here, it's just upsetting that Wikipedia would rather include no information or incorrect information just because of its status being published elsewhere.  It feels very inconsistent to someone looking from the outside. [[User:TripEricson|TripEricson]] ([[User talk:TripEricson|talk]]) 13:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::[[WP:MADEUP]]. That's not inconsistent. We've never allowed anything like this. In fact, you have a major [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]] with the site and shouldn't be posting it anyway. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 13:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::::For the same reason I can't start up a blog detailing my opinions on why "<insert political party> sucks", and then cite that blog in an article about <insert political party>.  If your system started getting popular, media outlets began to use it, talk about it, etc... then you'd be on much firmer ground.
::::::::I'd also have to wonder why everyone buckled so quickly to the Nielsen takedown demand?  "You can't copyright data" is a pretty fundamental principle. [[User:Tarc|Tarc]] ([[User talk:Tarc|talk]]) 13:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::: My website overall has been cited by newspapers and magazines, but the rankings themselves have not.  I understand your statement about blogs, but that doesn't seem to apply here since I make every effort to verify my information either with multiple viewers in a given area, or directly from the station in question.  (There are areas in Wyoming and Montana where I have stations listed without data since I cannot confirm anything.)  And I don't see what the conflict of interest is.  My site generates no advertising and actually loses me money every month.  I do it solely to provide the most accurate possible information.  
::::::::: I see total inconsistency in keeping inaccurate information posted simply because it ended up published.  Some articles were published about Estrella TV that it had launched on July 1 when anyone looking at any affiliate could tell you that had not happened.  The same thing with August 15.  It wasn't until the beginning of September that a so-called "reliable sources" posted the new September 14 date that was actually correct.
::::::::: In regard to the last point, quite honestly, I'd PREFER using the Nielsen data.  However, nobody involved is allowed to actually see the Nielsen OTRS ticket, so nobody knows what is covered by it and what isn't.  Yet another policy that I don't understand. [[User:TripEricson|TripEricson]] ([[User talk:TripEricson|talk]]) 13:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::How can you not see the conflict of interest when it is ''your'' website? --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 13:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::::After reading Wikipedia's policy on it, I see where the definition you have is coming from.  I always considered a conflict of interest to arise only when one party has something to gain, or is working for the gain of a particular party.  I am working solely to provide the most accurate information, and with no regard for my own profit or gain.  I see that Wikipedia's definition is wider than my own. [[User:TripEricson|TripEricson]] ([[User talk:TripEricson|talk]]) 14:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
(undent)  COI has nothing to do with profit or gain.  If I write a book ranking Facial Tissue (ie Kleenex), ranking brands by some variables, it would be a conflict of interest for me to edit a bunch of sites related to the manufacture of facial tissue, specifically linking to '''my''' book as a "reliable" source. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 15:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:Anyone got any friendly useful advice for that good faith editor about a suitable method to get this information into WP?  Getting it published (but by who?) and then get consensus to add the information to articles? It's a shame when hard work and useful information is trashed, eh? [[User:NotAnIP83:149:66:11|NotAnIP83:149:66:11]] ([[User talk:NotAnIP83:149:66:11|talk]]) 15:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

A few days back we had a discussion on this page or over at AN about Kitty Brewsters site, and how all sorts of articles about nobility in the United Kingdom linked to his site and use it as a reliable reference. If you actually look at his site, it looks like an amateur hobby project from 1996 - but the discussion here ultimately (if I recall correctly) allowed those links to remain. What separates that site, maintained by a Wikipedian, from Trip Ericson's? Let's not mix up two issues - linking from an article to userspace is something that should be discouraged. Linking to the personal site of a Wikipedian, and using it as a reference, is a different problem and one that we don't always handle with a blanket policy of "no!". [[User:Nathan|<strong style="color:#0033CC">Nathan</strong>]][[User talk:Nathan|<sup><strong style="color:#0033CC">  T  </strong></sup>]] 17:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
: I understand the concerns about the user space page; I admit that I don't hang around here as much as many, so I went by the advice of someone who told me I should put it in user space.  Upon reading the rules, the admins were absolutely correct to remove those links to the user space.  I will investigate these rules for myself in the future.
: On the subject of the website overall, it is as you state not within the scope of this discussion, so can further discussion be had in a new topic?  I know my ranking system isn't published, but I am very transparent about my methodology which means it could probably be reproduced by anyone using the same publicly-available tools willing to take the time to do so (and it did take many hours of work).  And the site overall has been linked from the Washington Post in an article about the digital transition among other sources. [[User:TripEricson|TripEricson]] ([[User talk:TripEricson|talk]]) 18:10, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:: There are a lot of different issues, let me concentrate on one - I don't think anyone actually thinks your rankings are wrong (or that far out) but wikipedia is based upon verification *not truth*, so we rely on independent reliable sources to tell us what is considered important - in this case, what would considered an accepted standard for rankings. Let's say the Michelin stars rating for good restaurants was not allowed to be used on wikipedia because of legal reasons. If I went out and designed the '''Cameron's''' and started rating restaurants and adding the ''Cameron rating'' to restaurant articles it would swift be removed. The fact that I could define my methodology would not help because my standard is not an agreed standard in the industry. --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 18:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::: I'm less concerned about the rankings themselves right at the moment and more concerned about the overall reliability of the site as a whole.  There are a number of pages on Wikipedia which use RabbitEars as a reference.  Should those references and associated information be deleted?  For example, the official website for Estrella TV doesn't even have a list of affiliates, so my website has become sort of the defacto affiliate list.  Same goes for This TV, though it's not actually cited on that page. [[User:TripEricson|TripEricson]] ([[User talk:TripEricson|talk]]) 18:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::This. It's not that your methodology is being called into question, it's just that - since it doesn't appear to be used by independent, reliable sources - it can't be used here as of right now. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 18:38, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::::Trip, you said that your site was cited by the Washington Post, can you provide references for that or for anyone else? Let's get a Wikipedia page up about your site, the work that's gone into it, and how that work has been used (outside of just Wikipedia, to avoid too many self-references). I'v edone this sort fo thing once before, and getting an article up about the source that can survive an AFD is the real key.<br/>— [[User:Ohms law|<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml"><i>V</i> = <i>I</i> * <i>R</i></span>]] ([[User talk:Ohms law|talk to Ω]]) 22:31, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::I've got some homework to do right at the moment, but let me dig through my site's referrer logs and I'll get back to you. [[User:TripEricson|TripEricson]] ([[User talk:TripEricson|talk]]) 22:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::If the website has identified editors, it has a clearly stated methodology which uses the census data for the towns and communities in each viewing area, the viewing areas are derived from an FCC database and if that website has been referenced by others (such as the claimed ref by the Washington Post) then it is reasonable to cite it as a basis for the ordering of the  US TV markets. Clearly NYC and LA are big TV markets, while some rural area is a small TV market. A big company writing a dickish letter, which for some reason Wikipedia OTRS folks must keep secret, means we cannot use data published by the US government. So it is not too far fetched, nor scandalous OR, to link to a site which does arithmetic (addition) from 2000 census data and the names of the communities. [[User:Edison|Edison]] ([[User talk:Edison|talk]]) 22:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[User:ObserverNY]] ==

ObserverNY has been blocked [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3AObserverNY 3 times] since July, but the disruption and accusations continue. [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Triadian&diff=prev&oldid=314093391 Continuous POV-pushing], making [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AgnosticPreachersKid&diff=prev&oldid=314110951 accusations] and insults against me and [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection&diff=prev&oldid=314004620 many] others (if you don't agree with everything ObserverNY says, [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=313586565 you're obviously] a [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mark_Lloyd&diff=prev&oldid=313847942 liberal]), etc.  The user needs a break. [[User:AgnosticPreachersKid|<b><font color="#000080">'''APK'''</font></b>]] [[User talk:AgnosticPreachersKid|<font color="#99BADD">'''is a GLEEk'''</font>]] 14:51, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:Oh please, you load up article talk pages with your [[WP:POV]] and then cry foul whenever anyone responds with a different POV and leave annoying "warnings" on their talk pages. Stop bothering me, silly person. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 15:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

:: ...might be wise to strike "silly person", and replace it with something that doesn't violate [[WP:NPA]] in front of all these admins, y'know. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 15:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Taxpayer_March_on_Washington&diff=314121710&oldid=314121305 Exhibit A] of the [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Taxpayer_March_on_Washington&diff=314094524&oldid=314092363 forum] and civility issues. [[User:AgnosticPreachersKid|<b><font color="#000080">'''APK'''</font></b>]] [[User talk:AgnosticPreachersKid|<font color="#99BADD">'''is a GLEEk'''</font>]] 15:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::Observer, I'm not blocking you at this point (though it's quite possible someone else will).  However, I'm going to check your contribs later today, and if I see new personal attacks or use of profanity in discussions, I'll act accordingly.  -- [[User:Pakaran|Pak]][[User talk:Pakaran|aran]] 15:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::Might it be worth checking for sockpuppets? [[User:CUTKD|<span style="font-family:Stencil Italic;color:#63B8FF">'''C.U.T.K.D'''</span>]] <sup><b>[[User talk:CUTKD|<span style="color:blue;">T</span>]]</b> <nowiki>|</nowiki> <b>[[Special:Contributions/CUTKD|<span style="color:red;">C</span>]]</b></sup> 09:20, 28 M 15:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Pakaran - Please be advised that APK removed one of my edits from the talk page here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ATaxpayer_March_on_Washington&diff=314094524&oldid=314092363]. I didn't think that was permissible.

:::What's a sockpuppet? I only post as ObserverNY. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 15:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

:::: As per [[WP:TALK]], the removal of that segment of text appears quite valid, and it was clearly explained why it was removed.  As per [[WP:SOCK]], I'm sure you can read it yourself. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 16:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::Concur with the talk removal. Well reasoned and removed appropriately. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 16:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

ObserverNY [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Taxpayer_March_on_Washington&diff=314148146&oldid=314138526 continues] to push for violating [[WP:OR]], and [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Taxpayer_March_on_Washington&diff=314134737&oldid=314130586 continues][http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Taxpayer_March_on_Washington&diff=313899620&oldid=313896980] to advocate the use of non-reliable sources. I don't believe he means to do harm to the article, or to Wikipedia, only that he feels very strongly that what the [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] say is not representative of "the truth". Unfortunately, his involvement is making the process of improving the article quite difficult, as he does not seem to be operating under the same [[WP:POLICY|policies]] as the other editors and many of his comments violate [[WP:NOTFORUM]], which creates a great deal of clutter [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Taxpayer_March_on_Washington&diff=314121710&oldid=314121305] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Taxpayer_March_on_Washington&diff=314018299&oldid=314009376]. — <small><span style="border:1px solid #333333;padding:1px;"><b>[[User:MichaelLNorth|Mike]]</b> : [[User_talk:MichaelLNorth|<font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#009900;">&nbsp;tlk&nbsp;</font>]]</span></small> 17:53, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

<s>:An uninvolved administrator may wish to take a look at the talk-page conduct, as well as the edit history (assuming they haven't done so already). ObserverNY's [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ATaxpayer_March_on_Washington&diff=314184398&oldid=314183458 recent edit] seems to suffer from a POV issue. He doesn't state that the sign was not present, just that it is not the sign he wishes the event to be associated with. [[User:Hazardous_Matt|<b><font color="black" size="2">HAZardousMATT</font></b>]][[User_talk:Hazardous_Matt|<sup><font color="#00ff00">toxic</font></sup>]] 20:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)</s> I'm going to strike my statement as the picture is could be construed as a [[WP:FRINGE]] violation. My apolgoies. [[User:Hazardous_Matt|<b><font color="black" size="2">HAZardousMATT</font></b>]][[User_talk:Hazardous_Matt|<sup><font color="#00ff00">toxic</font></sup>]] 20:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
: I'm starting to run out of reasons to assume good faith here. [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Van_Jones&diff=311695693&oldid=311695288 He seems to relish the addition of potentially damaging information to Van Jones' biography]. — <small><span style="border:1px solid #333333;padding:1px;"><b>[[User:MichaelLNorth|Mike]]</b> : [[User_talk:MichaelLNorth|<font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#009900;">&nbsp;tlk&nbsp;</font>]]</span></small> 21:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

===To all parties involved===

I think I recognize what's going on here. When I first registered, I had a fit like this on [[Nanking Massacre]], which at the time was in pretty bad shape ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Nanking_Massacre&diff=294433018&oldid=294431114 diff]). I did the wrong thing, and attempted to neutralize the article by ''pushing the POV the other way''. This earned me opposition from other editors, editors of whom I assumed bad faith and accused of causing the article to be in the shape it was. It fell into revert war, and as more editors joined the conflict I felt it become a me-versus-the-world thing. 

Eventually, on the edge of being blocked for 3RR, I calmed down, settled back, and explained that I was trying to help the article in the only way I knew how. I '''asked for assistance from those other editors''', and '''I got it'''. And now the article is in [[Nanking Massacre|much better shape]], and I'm on good terms with those I was once calling names.

I apologize if that experience has no relevance to what's happening here. I'm calling good faith on Observer NY's part, and I hope this helps. You can't build an encyclopedia alone. You need to learn to work with people and let them help you when you make mistakes. But more importantly, and I address this to admins in general, you '''cannot keep your finger over the block button''' when things aren't going right. Learn to talk issues out instead, with respect to the other person. I recently saw the phrase "good-faith vandalism" in a block summary. Please don't let me see that again. Put some effort into it.  [[User:A little insignificant|A little insignificant]] <sup>[[User talk:A little insignificant|talk to me!]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/A little insignificant|(please!)]]</sub> 18:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

: All due respect, but ObserverNY does not appear to be POV-pushing-back deliberately. He seems to be unclear about how to document facts in a [[WP:NPOV]] way, what constitutes [[WP:OR]], and what the requirements are for a [[WP:RS]]. I have [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Taxpayer_March_on_Washington&diff=314160434&oldid=314157556 made a concerted effort] to explain what is objectionable as specifically as possible, but I'm not sure if my explanations are disregarded as "partisan". [[WP:Agf|I'll give him the benefit of the doubt]] that he is unaware instead of uncaring of the [[WP:POLICY|policies]], but it is nonetheless quite disruptive to the editing process. — <small><span style="border:1px solid #333333;padding:1px;"><b>[[User:MichaelLNorth|Mike]]</b> : [[User_talk:MichaelLNorth|<font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#009900;">&nbsp;tlk&nbsp;</font>]]</span></small> 19:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::I had a similar experience via [[Talk:Van Jones]]. He [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Van_Jones&diff=312194606&oldid=312194169 asked] me about RS and [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Van_Jones&diff=312204884&oldid=312198701 thanked] me when I replied. But as soon as I disagreed with one of his opinions and [[User talk:ObserverNY#Removing content from someone else's talk page...|pointed out]] troublesome edits, I [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Die4Dixie&diff=prev&oldid=312664089 became] a [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ObserverNY&diff=312468935&oldid=312468840 nosy] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AgnosticPreachersKid&diff=314110951&oldid=313406034 POV] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Triadian&diff=314093391&oldid=274963182 "lib"]. He might be confused on certain policies ([[WP:RS]]), but he's well aware of [[WP:CIVIL]] and [[WP:NOTFORUM]]. If he continues the [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mark_Lloyd&diff=prev&oldid=313949019 daily] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mark_Lloyd&diff=prev&oldid=313847942 soapbox] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Taxpayer_March_on_Washington&diff=prev&oldid=313982810 speeches] (including [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:JohnHistory&diff=312825262&oldid=312806153 Wikipedia is a leftist joke; all Wikipedians who disagree with him are POV leftists] - there's [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:JohnHistory&diff=312444118&oldid=312392152 so many] to choose from), then I doubt he's a net asset to the project.  [[User:AgnosticPreachersKid|<b><font color="#000080">'''APK'''</font></b>]] [[User talk:AgnosticPreachersKid|<font color="#99BADD">'''is a GLEEk'''</font>]] 19:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::: APK, please provide diffs if you're going to make assertions like that, just to make sure that other editors can see exactly what was said instead of relying on your recounting of the exchange. — <small><span style="border:1px solid #333333;padding:1px;"><b>[[User:MichaelLNorth|Mike]]</b> : [[User_talk:MichaelLNorth|<font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#009900;">&nbsp;tlk&nbsp;</font>]]</span></small> 20:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::::[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Candorwien#Long_term_disruptive_editing_leading_to_near_abandonment_of_the_IB_Diploma_page Perhaps this will give you some perspective.] Long-term disruptive editing, edit warring, outing, personal attacks, pushing POV, incivility, inability to distinguish between valid and invalid sources, pushing inclusion of original research...you name it, ObserverNY has done it. 
::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 21:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Added diffs. If more diffs are needed, feel free to search through his edits. It's rather time-consuming. (note: slightly reworded my original statement) [[User:AgnosticPreachersKid|<b><font color="#000080">'''APK'''</font></b>]] [[User talk:AgnosticPreachersKid|<font color="#99BADD">'''is a GLEEk'''</font>]] 22:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::Oh joy! LaMome has joined the fracas! Another editor who thinks it's ok to delete/censor an editor's comments on an article's Talk page. You and APK make a very cute couple! Btw folks, I'm a she, not a he, and I don't have any hang-ups about being referred to by my proper gender. What a load of sanctimonious bullshit! (Please note, I am specifically referring to the charges being lodged against me, not the individuals who have lodged them and therefore am not violating [[WP:Civility]]).  LOL! [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 22:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::::::Yes, La mome commented over [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=prev&oldid=310465248 offensive soapboxing] and ObserverNY called La mome a [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ewen&diff=prev&oldid=310625504 nazi]. The incivility issues are not new. And ObserverNY ignores advice on using [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] which makes editing extremely disruptive. (Joining the conversation as some of my edits are in the previous diffs)  [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 22:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: Agree with the above. ObserverNY has been banned once every month since she registered (three times total), and her behavior is only getting worse after each ban.[[User:Tvor65|Tvor65]] ([[User talk:Tvor65|talk]]) 22:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::Now Truthkeeper, be fair, I called LaMome an IB-nazi. Isn't this special? I feel so important! All of the IB fanatics who have nothing better to do because I haven't edited the IB article in a week or so and apparently never filed their "case" against me, have assembled to jump in on this lynch mob. Did you make signs? I love the signs at protests!  ONY SUCKS! IMPEACH ONY! LOL! Seriously folks, get a life. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 22:49, 15 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

(unindent) The problem is this seems to be long-term issue. The way I see it, ONY has had extreme issues communicating in the past, and La mome seems willing to drop everything to continue berating her. This provokes ONY, which La mome turns around and uses as evidence, etc. See? Nobody benefits. ONY has been banned multiple times already. Is banning her again going to help?

I think this can all be fixed. Spread a little forgiveness around and start anew. I'm suggesting everybody walk away from this with a new goal in mind.

ONY, you need to communicate better. Here's what you should do (read the ENTIRE thing, this took a while to write and every word will help you):

*'''Be willing to admit you're wrong.''' If people disagree with you on something, don't attack them, ask for their point of view, and make sure you understand it. Respect their opinions, respect their input, and respect their judgment. Be able to recognize and apologize for your errors. ''Learn from your mistakes.''

*'''[[WP:AGF|Assume good faith in general]]. The people who disagree with you are not evil. As said above, respect them and know that attacking them won't make things any better.

*'''Be nice.''' It doesn't matter how much you are provoked, things will only escalate if you let your temper fly. As in your comments above, sarcasm doesn't help, it only harms yourself. You can solve more problems by being kind than by accusations. '''NEVER''' let your temper get the better of you.

*Finally, '''Ask for help.''' This ties in with the first bullet: if people object to something you're doing, ask them what you should be doing differently. People will give you help if you ask for it. You also have to be ready to accept that help and use their advice, or explain why you disagree. But back away from discussions that are going nowhere. It will all end in tears.

Those are all things I think you should work on, and once you master them, you can avoid further problems. Now, other editors. If ONY agrees to change her behavior per these guidelines, which I hope to God she does, I expect you to assume good faith on her part to honor those guidelines. No watching her like a hawk in case she slips up. You might check on her now and then to see how she's coming along, and that would be fine. But if she's having trouble, do NOT go reporting her to AN/I. Instead, try and help her with the issues she's having, and do so as a friend willing to help. And ONY, be willing to accept their help. There is no "lynch mob." 

If you can all put the past behind you, forgive each other and look forward to a new relationship, this long-term issue can be truly resolved. I remain convinced that a block or a ban does not solve any problem, it merely silences it. ''This'' is the way you can solve problems, but it takes effort on your part, and on everyone else's part. I hope you can all learn something from this.  [[User:A little insignificant|A little insignificant]] <sup>[[User talk:A little insignificant|talk to me!]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/A little insignificant|(please!)]]</sub> 00:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:: Sorry, A little insignificant, but I think your suggestion above is rather naive. ONY's situation is beyond this kind of help, and has been for a long time. It is astonishing that she has not been banned from WP yet, given the history. She has managed to personally attack and behave uncivilly toward a number of people, and while she may claim to you that she has been "provoked" by this or that individual or decry "leftist censorship" all she wants, the reality is that she is the one whose behavior continues to be unacceptable and should be dealt with.[[User:Tvor65|Tvor65]] ([[User talk:Tvor65|talk]]) 00:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:::ONY never claimed anything to me. The point I'm trying to get across is that we deal with the problem by helping or trying to help ONY. So her behavior continues to be unacceptable! ''Help her fix it!'' You say she's behind this kind of help, I don't see that anyone offered it to her. So give her a chance! We don't give up early and slap a ban on it!  [[User:A little insignificant|A little insignificant]] <sup>[[User talk:A little insignificant|talk to me!]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/A little insignificant|(please!)]]</sub> 01:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: She has been given many chances. Too many in fact.[[User:Tvor65|Tvor65]] ([[User talk:Tvor65|talk]]) 01:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::'''a little insignificant''' - Thank you for taking the time to write out your lengthy response. Your investment of time and attempt to be impartial is appreciated. However, it is quite pointless. As you can see, Tvor65, has spoken. 

::::: Thank you sir, may I have another? ;-) [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 01:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
===Nevertheless===
A few points around [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]].
* ObserverNY is basically a rather foul-mouthed [[WP:SPA|single-purpose account]] for lobbying against the IB diploma programme. It is not clear why s/he has taken this stance but there are some indications that s/he dislikes the IBDP's international approach to History and rejects the IBDP TOK's assumption that students should look for bias in received wisdom (e.g. from parents, teachers and the wider community).
* ObserverNY is therefore predisposed to see conspiracy everywhere, and unfortunately s/he is probably correct to say that most contributors to the IB articles broadly support the diploma, and that most of the citations are from IB materials, www.ibo.org or IB-supporting sites. Such selective sourcing is probably true of many areas of Wikipedia (e.g. most contributors to [[Yale University]] are probably those who support Yale's style of university education) but ObserverNY sees this as evidence of a conspiracy to support the IB diploma.
* From this starting point ObserverNY cannot tolerate any improvement to an IB article, even if it is only fixing capitalization (e.g. [[Talk:IB_Diploma_Programme/Archive_8#Decapitalization|here]], [[Talk:IB_Diploma_Programme/Archive_8#Capitalization]] and [[Talk:IB_Diploma_Programme/Archive_8#We_already_have_a_consensus|here]]). It is these general patterns (rather than his/her opinions about the IB Diploma Programme) that makes ObserverNY such an obstructive editor. 
On this basis it is hard to see any basis for banning him/her in the long term, but until s/he is banned I have no intention of further contributing to the IB articles. - [[User:Pointillist|Pointillist]] ([[User talk:Pointillist|talk]]) 01:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:'''"Predisposed to see conspiracy everywhere".''' ROTFLMAO! And now these editors are claiming they won't edit the [[IB]] series until I am banned? ROTFLMAO!!!! Good grief! Pointillist arrived at the [[IBDP]] article and insisted on decapitalizing proper nouns because IB does it that way (sometimes) instead of applying common grammatical usage. Logic and reasoned discussion does not work with these people. It's the IB way or no way. 

: Thank you sir, may I have another? [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 01:36, 16 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

::Oh, and one more thing - Truthkeeper - your [[WP:CANVASS]] is really tacky [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ewen][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Candorwien] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:HelloAnnyong] [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 01:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::I notified the editors who were involved in the conversations in the diffs I posted, or whose user pages you posted on and whose conversations are now here. They deserve to know, just as I found my name dragged into something provoked by you on article I've never edited. I haven't created this problem. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 01:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

<s>
::: It frustrates me that the other editors here are dismissing my attempts as naive and impossible, and ONY is no help as she's just responding (critically) to those other editor's comments. So let's go extreme: ObserverNY, I'm willing to coach you one-on-one and help you through this messy dispute. Your response?  [[User:A little insignificant|A little insignificant]] <sup>[[User talk:A little insignificant|talk to me!]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/A little insignificant|(please!)]]</sub> 01:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC)</s>

I think this can be solved otherwise, but not without anyone's consent. I give up.  [[User:A little insignificant|A little insignificant]] <sup>[[User talk:A little insignificant|talk to me!]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/A little insignificant|(please!)]]</sub> 01:58, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:<s>I've given up too. My message to [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] is: You are the fattest fathead I have ever encountered on Wikipedia, ObserverNY, in that you have deliberately and offensively alienated every neutral editor who might have helped develop your point of view. For example, I have shown that I have a larger store of purchased IBDP materials than any other contributor, I have assumed good faith for many of your IB edits, and I have been prepared to analyse your allegations despite the foul-mouthed terms in which you wrapped them. It could have been different but you have consistently pissed on those advantages, and you should be ashamed of your reckless self-indulgence. Please leave as soon as possible: you have nothing to offer here. - [[User:Pointillist|Pointillist]] ([[User talk:Pointillist|talk]]) 02:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)</s>

::Pointillist, that was a direct personal attack. ObserverNY, you too are making borderline personal attacks and your comments here are simply not helping resolve the situation. You are practically refusing to engage in constructive discussion with your sarcastic comments, plus you continued to do this after you received an informal warning from Pakaran above. Consider this as your final warning - if you continue like this you will be blocked. I suggest that other editors involved in this discussion stop making scathing remarks at each other and cooperate with the editors who are making good faith attempts to resolve the situation. ≈&nbsp;[[User:Chamal_N|'''C'''hamal]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Chamal_N|<sup><span style="color:#808000;">talk</span></sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Chamal_N|¤]] 02:39, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::: I feel that ObserverNY has at least 1 sockpuppet around. On [[User talk:ObserverNY|ONY's talk page]], a user named [[User:JohnHistory]] came to ONY's defense. Yet what alarms me the most is the identical style of both users' signature. Notice how both their signatures are not formatted properly at the same place? Upon running poor man's CU, it revealed that 1/7 of ONY and 1/5 of JohnHistory's contributions go to the same page. [[User:OhanaUnited|<b style="color:#0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b>]][[User talk:OhanaUnited|<b style="color:green;"><sup>Talk page</sup></b>]] 03:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::They seem unlikely to be socks of one another (which I admittedly say without understanding what you are referring to in terms of the signatures). They have very different edit histories and interests (ObserverNY has one primary interest which accounts for well over half of their edits, and doesn't seem much interested in Germany as JohnHistory is), and the only real overlap seems to have come on the Glenn Beck/Van Jones nexus (which is unsurprising since that has very much been in the news of late and lots of new people have showed up at those articles). Their edit summary patterns are quite different, and a number of edits (particularly over at [[Van Jones]] and its talk page) happen with a minute or two of one another. Seems more likely they just agree on certain content issues. --[[User:Bigtimepeace|Bigtimepeace]] <small>| [[User_talk:Bigtimepeace|talk]] |  [[Special:Contributions/Bigtimepeace|contribs]]</small> 05:05, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::John History posts to ObserverNY talk page celebrating that Van Jones was fired. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:ObserverNY#Van_Jones_is_Gone_Dude.21.21.21_Hell.27s_yeah.21] [[User:Reliefappearance|Reliefappearance]] ([[User talk:Reliefappearance|talk]]) 13:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

=== Enough is enough ===
I've indefinitely blocked [[User:ObserverNY]].  If someone simply cannot or will not act appropriately here, then they aren't needed here.  Period.  Any admin who feels this is too harsh can reverse but I honestly don't think allowing xym back until they are willing to act with a modicum of respect will do anything more than encourage this kind of behavior.  Regardless of the diffs, the comments here from xym are plenty enough for me.  -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 05:36, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:'xym'? [[User:Ewen|Ewen]] ([[User talk:Ewen|talk]]) 06:01, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:: Isn't that the proper term for a more neutral him/her?  Like xe instead of he/her?  Whatever, I think you get my point.  -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 06:45, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Thanks for explaining. First time I've heard of 'xe' or 'xym'! I wondered if you previously blocked a user called 'xym' and had copied the same comment for ObserverNY. [[User:Ewen|Ewen]] ([[User talk:Ewen|talk]]) 10:45, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::::No objections. Anyway, she's now attacking Ricky81682 on the talk page. If this goes on, talk page access will also have to be blocked. ≈&nbsp;[[User:Chamal_N|'''C'''hamal]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Chamal_N|<sup><span style="color:#808000;">talk</span></sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Chamal_N|¤]] 01:37, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Nominative: "[[wikt:xe#English|xe]]", objective: "[[wikt:xem#English|xem]]", possessive: "[[wikt:xyr#English|xyr]]". [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 02:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

: Sorry, always forget.  Either way, if there isn't going to be any useful talk page usage, I don't see what's gained by keeping the soapbox going. -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 08:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[User:Yeago]] ==

The first thing {{user|Yeago}} did after returning from his [[Wikipedia:AN3#User:Yeago_reported_by_Viriditas_.28talk.29_.28Result:_48h.29|48 hour block]] for edit warring and 3RR violations on [[Barack Obama speech to joint session of Congress, September 2009]] was to immediately [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama_speech_to_joint_session_of_Congress,_September_2009&diff=prev&oldid=314139509 begin edit warring again] and removing the same content that got him blocked and has consensus for inclusion by multiple editors (four or five at last count).Yeago's subsequent edit was to do the same thing on [[Joe Wilson (U.S. politician)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Joe_Wilson_%28U.S._politician%29&diff=prev&oldid=314140637].  The Yeago account appears to be only used for edit warring and reverting, and the last 48 hour block had no effect on him.  Could an administrator ''please'' take a look at this situation?  Thank you. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 18:43, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:Where is this consensus? If there is a consensus, why is there a NPOV flag on those articles? My being blocked was due to my misunderstanding that edit-warring was page-specific (as I recalled, it was content specific). I think your assumption that 'the yeago account is only used for edit warring' is a rather disgusting charge and completely bad-faith.[[User:Yeago|Yeago]] ([[User talk:Yeago|talk]]) 20:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:Blocked for 1 week. I should like a gentle sanity check from (yet another) uninvolved reader; I blocked on the simple basis that the editors first edit upon block expiry was to make the same or very similar edit as got them blocked previously when violating 3RR - therefore their first action was to restart the edit war. I recognise that they have discussed this edit before their earlier block, and were discussing it again after making it today, but feel this is irrelevent to the point that they have proven themselves willing to disrupt the encyclopedia by making the edit while it is contested/against consensus. I have attempted to make this point several times when notifying the editor and they do not seem to "get it". I would like to ensure that the point I am making is valid and understandable, and the block is therefore appropriate. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 21:31, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::The purpose in blocking when 3RR is violated is to prevent an edit war. If upon expiration of the block, the edit war begins again, then a block should suffice to stop it as before. I think your sanity is intact (or at least you aren't insane just because of this block) and in conformity with [[WP:EW#Administrator guidance]]. -- '''[[User:Atama|<span style="color:#06F">At</span><span style="color:#03B">am</span><span style="color:#006">a</span>]]'''[[User talk:Atama|<span style="color:#000">頭</span>]] 22:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::I should add that I reviewed and declined an unblock request from this user. Good block, here. [[User:Ultraexactzz|UltraExactZZ]] <sup> [[User_talk:Ultraexactzz|Claims]] </sup>~<small> [[Special:Contributions/Ultraexactzz|Evidence]] </small> 12:19, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Proposed unblock of [[User:Alarichus]] ==

I've had some conversation with now-indefinitely-blocked user [[User:Alarichus]] on IRC about a possible unblock, provided I'd be able to watch over him. The user was indefinitely blocked as a [[WP:SOCK|sock puppet]] of [[User:Sarandioti]] per [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sarandioti]]. This was also brought up at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive563#Possible sockpupetry by Sarandioti-Alarichus]]. Today, I blocked Sarandioti for an additional three months for sock puppetry because of the conclusions brought forth at the SPI. (Alarichus was indefinitely blocked two days ago by another admin.) Having worked with this editor for a bit, I know he can make good contributions, and I think I can work with him. Since the master account is currently temporarily blocked, if unblocked and assuming Alarichus is a sock, he wouldn't be able to go back with the master account, anyways. What does anyone think? [[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 18:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:Sarandioti has a long history of blocks, and is the confirmed sockmaster. The results of the checkuser were confirmed by multiple CUs, so we should be safe in assuming that Sarandioti == Alarichus. This is a fact that Alarichus continues to deny. I would say that if he wants to be unblocked, he should request it on [[User_talk:Sarandioti]] and it should be considered in view of his prior blocks, restrictions and his history of block and restriction evasion. [[User:Nathan|<strong style="color:#0033CC">Nathan</strong>]][[User talk:Nathan|<sup><strong style="color:#0033CC">  T  </strong></sup>]] 19:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

::(Original blocking admin here) I agree with Nathan; I see little reason to unblock. The checkuser looks to be solid, with multiple CUs confirming, so Alarichus should definitely be indef blocked as a sockpuppet. If this person wants to regain their editing privileges, they should do so on the Sarandioti account, not on any sockpuppet. [[User:NuclearWarfare|<b style="color:navy;">NW</b>]] ''([[User talk:NuclearWarfare|<span style="color:green;">Talk</span>]])'' 20:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::: Comment: I must say I'm confused. On reading the SPI report and checkuser findings this seemed like an open-and-shut case at first, but on reviewing the behavioural evidence, I'm just not seeing the similarity. Alarichus was productive, had a totally different range of topics (about which he seemed genuinely knowledgable and interested, not the type of cover-up edits of a good-hand account); he also seemed to write better English, was more articulate, seemed better behaved, and, if I may be so frank, more intelligent than Sarandioti. Some of these properties are difficult to fake, even for a determined sockpuppeter. Really, I'm not sure what to make of this all. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 20:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::: On reviewing further (and also having another chat with Alarichus on IRC), I will say that I support an unblock. I find it exceedingly difficult to reconcile his personality profile as evidenced in his original wiki contributions and the personal talk with the idea of his being a Sarandioti sock. I don't know how to explain the checkuser thing – the most likely explanation might be that they both frequented the same internet cafe (Alarichus' account of how he has been using several internet cafes in downtown Athens for several weeks even though he doesn't permanently live there has a plausible explanation.) [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 21:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::What about his unusual tenacity in the TfD debate?  What about the fact that the account was created right before Sarandioti was blocked and immediately started heavy duty editing?   Not to mention that this is coupled with Sarandioti's apparent disappearance off the face of the earth.  And the whole "I am from Ticino but editing from 16 different cafes in downtown Athens" is bizarre to say the least.  Has he been staying in a hotel in Athens for the past month and a half? And that's when all of a sudden he decided to go on a massive editing spree?  Sounds more to me like the convoluted excuses a sockpuppeteer would make to cover his tracks.  --[[User:Athenean|Athenean]] ([[User talk:Athenean|talk]]) 21:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::I support unblock, per my comments elsewhere. Until the presumed sock starts ACTING like one, we should not judge him guilty based on similarity of IP / time. For all we know, he can be guilty of nothing more than living close the the presumed sockmaster. Of particular importance to me is that they edit different subjects. Block the disruptive account, unblock the constructive one. It is really simple. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 23:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::Out of full disclosure, I also did talk to the user on IRC. I also think an unblock can be done, but we can always do it again if it turns out we are duped. I also suggested for him to make a new account and he already rejected that option. [[User:Zscout370]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Zscout370|(Return Fire)]]</sup></small> 23:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support''' unblock. Otherwise excellent editor who did good stuff for the project as Alarichus. Two possibilities here; either 1) he's Sarandioti returned as a good editor, or 2) he's not Sarandioti at all, simply a good editor. Either way the project can only benefit from having him editing again, and if he screws around we can return to the ban at a later date. [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 03:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
*'''Oppose ''' unblock. Apart from a series of overwhelming evidence [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Sarandioti/Archive]] he intended to continue a vendetta scheme (like nominating articles as [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Vikos-Aoos_National_Park/GA1 'quick fail']  instead of 'on hold' as per [[Wikipedia:Reviewing_good_articles#First_things_to_look_for]] -Sarandioti didn't like this region as stated in wp:spi-). Moreover, it's no wonder that Sarandioti was considered 'intelligent' too from the very first days of his appearance: [[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sarandioti&diff=next&oldid=294988465]], (both accounts gave the same explenation for their higher intelligence: [[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sarandioti&diff=next&oldid=294996961]]) so I am not surprised from Alarichus. Also, seems a specific internet café in Athens is full of intelligent wiki-experienced irc-active [[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sarandioti&diff=292670807&oldid=292543151]] guys.

What are the arguments he mentions in irc? If they are really convincing, '''it would be appropriate to post them here.''' (the entire log file if necessary) [[User:Alexikoua|Alexikoua]] ([[User talk:Alexikoua|talk]]) 07:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:I still have lingering suspicions, particularly regarding how quickly he subscribed to the Albanian POV in a recent TfD debate and the tenacity with which he pursued the TfD.  If he is to be unblocked, I would propose, just to be on safe side, that he be (temporarily at least) topic-banned from articles that fall under the scope of WP:ARBMAC.  If Alarichus is not Sarandioti and is genuinely not interested in Balkans articles as he claims, then this does no harm, and he is free to edit those articles he is interested in.  If he is Sarandioti, he should be topic-banned regardless (and should have a long time ago if you ask me).  Later, if all lingering doubts have been dispelled, the topic ban could be lifted.  --[[User:Athenean|Athenean]] ([[User talk:Athenean|talk]]) 06:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::OMG, I'm wavering. This is really a difficult case. My previous skepticism was based on the superficial impression I had of Sarandioti, of being just the typical, single-minded and simple-minded, nationalist Balkan advocacy account. I didn't consider it within his intellectual compass to edit all those highbrow and academically sophisticated topics Alarichus edits. But, now I see another piece of the jigsaw: Sarandioti, too, had a few moments of quality editing in such domains, early on in his career. Here [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=La_Peau_de_chagrin&diff=prev&oldid=292850631][http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:La_Peau_de_chagrin&diff=prev&oldid=292851229] he was making an (apparently knowledgeable) edit about Honoré de Balzac, and here [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Leipzig&diff=prev&oldid=293678402] he is making a (likewise knowledgeable) edit about medieval German history. Those are closely related to the fields Alarichus excelled in: literature and medieval history. So, the scenario of a good-hand – bad-hand scheme would again seem possible. This is a dilemma: either Alarichus is just an excellent editor and we owe him a big apology, or this is a sock campaign of the very worst kind: the amount of malicious deception in Alarichus' behaviour, under that hypothesis (i.e. systematically targetting his opponents through the back door, systematically trying to make "friends in high places" on IRC, etc.) would make a full indef community ban on both accounts absolutely necessary, no matter how good some of his contributions are. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 07:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:::I still don't see a problem. Cut off the bad hand, let the good hand do the good stuff, and if the good hand starts acting like the bad hand, cut it off then. But AGF that the good hand can remain good. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00; background:#006400;"> talk </span>]]</span></sub> 07:51, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::: But the "good hand" wasn't "good", under this hypothesis. Inserting himself into a GA review of his opponent's article, under the guise of a new, disinterested user, just to spite the opponent and make his nomination fail, is the very paradigm of deceptive, malicious sockpuppetry. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 08:12, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::For a poetic approach of this issue: Alarichus, after the [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=313336575#Final_Comment wp:ani] case was fruitless against me, wrote down this quote on his page (11:00, 10 September 2009): [[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:Alarichus&diff=312951624&oldid=311094604]] ...''"For where no hope is left is left no fear".''[[User:Alexikoua|Alexikoua]] ([[User talk:Alexikoua|talk]]) 08:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Alarichus is Sarandioti. We know that from the technical analysis of both Nishkid64 and J.delanoy, from language analysis of the Athenean and from the Fut's intelligence and topics analysis. Another point that came to my attention through Alexikoua's post is that even Sarandioti's account seems not to be his first[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sarandioti&diff=next&oldid=294988465], according to EdJohnston (although Sarandioti denied it), nor Alarichus' account is the only sock he has already created. Sarandioti was caught also having created another sock(XXxLRKistxXx[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:XXxLRKistxXx]) but having immediately taken part in disputes he was quickly unmasked. The fault was not repeated and the lesson he took is evident in the “Alarichus” attempt where he was more careful avoiding early involvement (although in some cases his effort to make as much as possible neutral topic contributions caused him troubles[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alarichus#Your_presumably_semi-automated_edits]). So what we are talking here is about a case of three attempts to mislead the community (after the yet undetected initial account or IP: a Sarandioti, a XxxLRKistxXx and the Alarichus) by a single person of openly admitted fanatical nationalistic[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:XXxLRKistxXx&diff=313728193&oldid=295329861] and neonazi background[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sarandioti](photo in "politics" chapter). To me such an extensive sockpuppeting activity necessitates strict measures and any different action will be a reward of his cheating efforts and a wrong signal to any other user. --[[User:Factuarius|Factuarius]] ([[User talk:Factuarius|talk]]) 10:43, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
*As someone who has been helping Alarichus with various bits and bobs for a few weeks, I '''support''' the unblock. He came looking for help with various things, and, if I may say so, required quite a bit of help from myself and {{user|Chzz}} with his first article. Since then, his articles have been getting better and better. This is hardly consistent with the idea that he is some kind of sockpuppet- he even asked me about the best course of action with the template. Seems I was foolish to suggest TfD- you'll note I was the nominator, as Alarichus was less than certain with regards to the process. I have little to no doubt that Alarichus is not a sock (note that I can't even begin to decipher checkuser info, so I have no opinion on that). [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 19:52, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:The way I see it, there are just too many coincidences.  The dates coincide, the internet cafes coincide, the POV on the TfD coincides, grammar and diction coincide, the vendettas against Alexikoua coincide.  And worst of all, the checkuser coincides.  I also note the following pattern.  Whenever Alarichus is chatting on IRC, presto, more people come to support his unblock.  He is using IRC to try to make friends with people who are not familiar with Sarandioti and influence their vote.  I note that all the people supporting the unblock are totally unfamiliar with Sarandioti.  --[[User:Athenean|Athenean]] ([[User talk:Athenean|talk]]) 20:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::I'm sorry, that sounds just a little bit like you're accusing me of something. Care to rephrase? [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 20:12, 16 September 2009 (UTC) 
:::Not accusing you of anything, sorry if it came across that way.  I just think you're not familiar with Sarandioti.  It just sickens me the way Alarichus is using IRC to sweet-talk people who aren't familiar with Sarandioti to support his unblock.  The whole IRC thing has a very behind-the-scenes look to it.  Why doesn't Alarichus post on his talkpage but instead only goes through IRC?  Is it because people who are familiar with Sarandioti might pick up on his grammar and diction?  --[[User:Athenean|Athenean]] ([[User talk:Athenean|talk]]) 20:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::I don't think you need to worry about me being sweet-talked. You'll note that the commenters here are respected Wikipedians- hardly mindless meatpuppets. And no, some people here are not familiar with the case- that gives them the ability to look at the matter objectively, without bias, does it not? Furthermore, if third party thoughts are not requested, what is the case doing on the noticeboard? As for "Is it because people who are familiar with Sarandioti might pick up on his grammar and diction?", that line is almost a joke. Do you seriously think that's why Alarichus is not posting on his own talk page? No, of course it isn't. Alarichus has been on IRC regularly for the last few months, and has chatted there many times. This is hardly a "quick, go and make some friends". If you want to know of someone who has just popped up on IRC in response to this issue, I would be able to name some names, but Alarichus wouldn't be one of them. [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 20:30, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::A further piece of evidence:  Sarandioti's contribs log from the Albanian Wikipedia [http://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciale:Kontributet/Sarandioti].  Note the interest in Alastair Crowley and Nietzsche.  What do you see on Alarichus' user page?  Satan and Nietzsche.  --[[User:Athenean|Athenean]] ([[User talk:Athenean|talk]]) 22:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::You'll be blocking me too then- in the last month, I have read both ''[[Beyond Good and Evil]]'' and ''[[A Very Short Introduction]] to Nietzsche''. As far as "evidence" goes, pretty much everything I've been able to understand here is tripe. [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 22:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::That's the first time I hear someone refer to evidence from two different checkusers as "tripe".  --[[User:Athenean|Athenean]] ([[User talk:Athenean|talk]]) 23:02, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Btw, do you also edit articles about random small towns in California [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Paskenta,_California&diff=prev&oldid=294456378] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Baker,_California&diff=prev&oldid=310430822] and marine lifeforms [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Thrissacanthias&diff=prev&oldid=294551734] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Levinellidae&diff=prev&oldid=305534792]?  What's that, yet ''another'' coincidence?  Come on people, [[WP:DUCK]] for crying out loud.  Right time frame, right location, tone and talking style, multiple checkusers, vendettas against Greek editors, and now a closer look at the contribs logs.  Did I mention ''multiple'' checkusers?  Whatever doubts were in my mind (and there were some) have now been conclusively dispelled.  If this isn't a sock of Sarandioti, then I am from Mars.  --[[User:Athenean|Athenean]] ([[User talk:Athenean|talk]]) 01:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Athenean, there is no need to recite the entire SPI case; we can read. I'm suggesting that perhaps this editor is trying to do some good, sock or not. Why keep punishing him punitively despite that fact? [[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 02:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:For the reasons Future Perfect outlined above.  There is major malice and deception here.  Sorry if I sound repetitive, I'm just getting a little frustrated because in spite of the overwhelming evidence some people still think he is not a sock.  I hope the latest evidence posted above dispels any doubts.  The way I see it, there are two questions:  A) is Alarichus indeed a sock?  B)If yes, what measures to take.  It seems most but not all people think the answer to A is yes, but some are unsure about how to answer B. Does that adequately sum up your position, MuZemike?  The way I see it, A has now been answered conclusively, in which case B was answered by Future Perfect.  --[[User:Athenean|Athenean]] ([[User talk:Athenean|talk]]) 03:12, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

::Something I've not mentioned in wp:spi, but seems obvious, is that Alarichus provided a weird, unexplained support to [[User:I_Pakapshem]] (Sarandioti's tag-team friend). In two instances he carefully avoided to say a word against him although he was informed about his block record history, on the contrary he was I_Pakapshem advocate: 

*[[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2009_September_6&diff=312353009&oldid=312351625]]
*[[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=312776019]] Characteristically, Alarichus was convinced that I_Pakapshem never joined irc that day: 
<blockquote>
"I Pakapshem didn't login with this nickname or another, and no one even mentioned such an issue(!!)."
</blockquote> 
Suppose this means he knows I_Pakapshem very well, it doesn't really make sense otherwise.

Moreover, I don't believe that a really 'good' hand can conclude something like this: [[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=312858011]]. I really try to search for a single evidence that proves the contrary but fruitless... Also I agree that Alarichus contribution was in general very good, agree with Fut.Perfect comments.[[User:Alexikoua|Alexikoua]] ([[User talk:Alexikoua|talk]]) 06:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Why MuZemike? Because he is a sock, that's the reason. And in WP to have a sock is punishable, or I think so. I believe that this is a valid rule for me for Athenean and for you as any other here, why not for Sarandioti? And because that's already his second or third sock. In three months Sarandioti's account will be again here to edit from his home and Alarichus account from his local internet cafe. Is it possible to have an official acceptance in doing that? I am starting to understand nothing of what is happening. The phrase "this editor is trying to do some good, sock or not." makes me wonder for anything I learned here. Not to mention that one of his first "good" was to "inserting himself into a GA review of his opponent's article, under the guise of a new, disinterested user, just to spite the opponent and make his nomination fail". --[[User:Factuarius|Factuarius]] ([[User talk:Factuarius|talk]]) 06:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: No administrative action is intended to be "punishment" - they are intended to prevent additional disruption.  Socks proven in an SPI and/or those that in the majority of people pass the [[WP:DUCK|duck test]] can be blocked if disruption is being caused. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 09:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::Name it whatever you want. What I said is that if Alarichus become unblocked, in three months from today a person will have officially two accounts in WP. What is your position about? --[[User:Factuarius|Factuarius]] ([[User talk:Factuarius|talk]]) 09:36, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::: That depends, see [[WP:Multiple_accounts]].  A user ''may'' use a second account under certain circumstances.  If the second account is used to violate policy, then ''and only then'' is it sockpuppetry.  The question will be: are the 2 accounts being used disruptively and/or to violate policy - if not, then there will be no issue. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 10:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::: Well, ''IF'' the two accounts were controlled by the same person, then they most certainly did act disruptively, since the second account was used to cover up the negative record of the first, join disputes and tackle other users that the first account had previously antagonised, under the deceptive guise of a new, uninvolved person. There's no way that could be covered by the legitimate-second-account clause. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 10:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: Acknowledged.  So, do we indef the probable "master", and allow the second to be unblocked due to contrition, but perhaps with the requirement of being mentored?  There are ''some'' possibilities they may not be related, although they likely are.  If we indef the master, let Alarichus edit under control - and with the proviso that they may not use multiple accounts or else they will be banned - then we may have a win, win, win situation. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 11:07, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::::: "Contrition"? But there is no contrition. He hasn't admitted he's a sock, and he has not admitted he did anything wrong. (And indeed, if he wasn't a sock, then he did nothing wrong.) I'm afraid there are only two clean, consistent outcomes here: either we decide he was a sock, then it's indef, or he isn't, then it's full rehabilitation for both accounts and a big apology. We must make this decision, there's no place for intermediate solutions. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 11:51, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
BTW is a (or two) sockpuppet investigation(s) playing any role in a sockpuppet case or we have to forget all about and continue with arguments? --[[User:Factuarius|Factuarius]] ([[User talk:Factuarius|talk]]) 12:42, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Sarandioti had been long enough around here to know that a disruptive edit-warrior sock could soon be tracked down and blocked indefinitely. So he tried to make himself very discreet, and try to influence/affect all that actually interests him (i.e. that specific group of Greek-Albanian articles). But some things could not be hidden and were found and included as evidence. Yet a two-month scheme cannot be wasted now; therefore, the "angelic face" of Sarandioti, his "Light Side", is trying to come back here. I do not see a reason to unblock. Unless, of course, Alarichus is topic-banned indefinately from Balkan-related articles. If he is not a sock, then he could live with that.--[[User:Michael IX the White|Michael X the White]] ([[User talk:Michael IX the White|talk]]) 18:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)   

== Eyes, please, on [[Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now]] ==

Over the past several days, two young political activists have been releasing one video after another about their undercover visits to the offices of the politically connected group [[Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now]] (Acorn) in various cities in the U.S., with lurid recordings about multiple Acorn employees willing to help them with tax and loan advice to set up a purported brothel. Today, instead of just one revelation, there were two, from visits to the San Bernardino, California, and Brooklyn offices. In recent days, the traffic at the Acorn article has exploded [http://stats.grok.se/en/200909/Association%20of%20Community%20Organizations%20for%20Reform%20Now] (top day: 12.5K visits -- not the highest on WP, but still). I expect more in the next 24 hours. A lot of IP edits, good and bad, have come in. Other editors have had sharp disagreements on that page, and there's been some bad behavior, but I'm not here to complain about that. Please just watch the page and warn a vandal or editor if you think it would be useful. I've discussed this with Gamaliel, an admin, on his or her talk page, and that admin says more eyes would be welcome. Gamaliel recently semiprotected the page once for a while, but whether it's worth doing again, I don't know. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 20:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:Yeah, a couple of those IPs seem to be good. I'll watch the page, but I'm trying to hold on semi-protection unless they continue to edit-war over the same stuff (more specifically, the "predatory lending" part and the "prostitution" part). [[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 20:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::I've seen enough. Semi-protected for <s>1 day</s>12 hours. Users can discuss civilly on the talk page. [[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 02:45, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

== Help with an IP-based sock-puppet ==

Take a look at the history for [[List of action film actors]]. In the past, I had teamed up with [[User_talk:Tiptoety|Tiptoety]] to snuff out a handful of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_P%C3%A9_de_Chinelo sock-puppets of Pé de Chinelo]. Now, the (assumed) same user is back, but just using a dynamic IP address. All the 201.x.x.x IPs make the same edit, over and over. The removal of Dakota Fanning or Natalie Portman from the list of the aforementioned page is usually a dead giveaway. I would guess it's a bit tougher to stop an IP sock-puppet than a registered account, so I am asking for advice on how to proceed. I am at the verge of violating 3RR if I revert on [[List of action film actors]] again. [[User:Crotchety Old Man|Crotchety Old Man]] ([[User talk:Crotchety Old Man|talk]]) 20:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:I think these are clearly socks of (pretty much-banned) [[User:Pé de Chinelo]]. I'd block or possibly semi-protect the page, but having done the RFC/U on him a long time ago, I don't think that's a good idea. I'd have to leave it up to another admin as on the appropriate action. [[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 20:59, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:I checked the article history - it is pretty bad. There is clear and persistent vandalism from the stated IP range.  I endorse a semi-protection or other measures to alleviate the situation. —[[User:Matheuler|<span style="font-variant:small-caps"><font color=" #871F78"><b>Matheuler</b></font></span>]] 23:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::I'm not sure how suitable a rangeblock would be given the dynamic IP, so I've applied a month's semi-prot. Longer than I normally go for, but the vandalism is both long-term and persistent. Hope this helps, [[User:EyeSerene|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#4B0082">EyeSerene</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:EyeSerene|<span style="color:#6B8E23">talk</span>]]</sup> 12:35, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

== Sock ==

Reported to me by email by a currently banned user, but worth investigating: {{userlinks|Cordyceps2009}}, stated to be a likely sock of {{userlinks|Yellowbeard}}. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 21:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:Has this been reported to [[WP:SPI]]? That seems the proper venue for these sorts of inquiries. —[[User:Matheuler|<span style="font-variant:small-caps"><font color=" #871F78"><b>Matheuler</b></font></span>]] 23:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:When you believe that I am a sockpuppet, then you should start a [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations|sockpuppet investigation]]. The last time that Abd ran a sockpuppet investigation against me, claiming that I was a sockpuppet of Yellowbeard, was in [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Yellowbeard/Archive#Report date July 13 2009, 01:45 (UTC)|July 2009]]. [[User:Cordyceps2009|Cordyceps2009]] ([[User talk:Cordyceps2009|talk]]) 23:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:: [[WP:DUCK]]. [[User:Multixfer|&lt;&gt;Multi-Xfer&lt;&gt;]] ([[User talk:Multixfer|talk]]) 03:40, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[Jackson effect]] ==

This article apparently [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jackson_Effect|escaped deletion]] throught the old [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jackson_effect&diff=299852340&oldid=299837344 Kansas City shuffle]. [[User:MickMacNee|MickMacNee]] ([[User talk:MickMacNee|talk]]) 22:59, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:I have speedy deleted it with the reason "recreation of deleted content: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jackson Effect]]". [[User talk:Chillum|<font color='#E83018'>'''Chillum'''</font>]] 23:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Good work [[User:Dr. Szląchski|Dr. Szląchski ]] ([[User talk:Dr. Szląchski|talk]]) 23:26, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Looking for uninvolved admin (simple problem) ==

Can a random admin take a look at {{user|Arastunko}}? It's an easy story to understand from his contributions history and the history of his talkpage so I'll leave it at that to avoid influencing anyone's judgment. Thanks, [[User:Pascal.Tesson|Pascal.Tesson]] ([[User talk:Pascal.Tesson|talk]]) 23:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:His last edit to the page of conflict was a self-revert, so it looks like he is at least trying to back off.  Is there something else I should be looking for?  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#000099;">Jayron</span>]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009900;">32</span>]]''''' 03:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[User:Niama13]] ==

Would someone with CU privileges kindly run a check on this guy and slap a block on the range for the time being?  I am being harassed no end by this individual even after I'd lifted a spam block; he is continuing to harass me via sock accounts.  --[[User:PMDrive1061|PMDrive1061]] ([[User talk:PMDrive1061|talk]]) 00:14, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:Sounds a good idea, see [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Niama13]]; I've blocked the oh-so-obvious socks, but there was a threat of further socking / meatpuppetry. [[User:Bencherlite|Bencherlite]][[User talk:Bencherlite|<i><sup>Talk</sup></i>]] 00:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

== Annoying vandal only account ==

{{User|00gieb}} keeps creating pages about himself (he is non notable) and they keep getting speedied, only to have him recreate them. Now he has moved his own talk page to a talk page of an account that doesn't exist and moved his userpage to an article page. This troll needs blocking and his mess fixed. [[User:Multixfer|&lt;&gt;Multi-Xfer&lt;&gt;]] ([[User talk:Multixfer|talk]]) 00:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

: One fixed mess, coming up.  He be blocked, he be.  :)  --[[User:PMDrive1061|PMDrive1061]] ([[User talk:PMDrive1061|talk]]) 01:01, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:: Beauty! Many thanks. [[User:Multixfer|&lt;&gt;Multi-Xfer&lt;&gt;]] ([[User talk:Multixfer|talk]]) 01:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

== University class project? ==

Please see [[Talk:WECAN at West Virginia University]].  The article itself is up for deletion, but the Talk page indicates several people from the class are critiquing each other's articles.  I haven't looked at all of the work done by the other editors, but so far, I see no other problem articles.  But each User's contributions to other Talk pages show other people from the same class commenting, so it's kind of a house of cards with each of these users responding to each other's work.  [[User:Who then was a gentleman?|Who then was a gentleman?]] ([[User talk:Who then was a gentleman?|talk]]) 02:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
*Deleted edits confirm that this is a class project.  [[Talk:Sustainable Homes]] is another similar talk page.  It's that time of year again, isn't it?  [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 02:46, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
**PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, when deleting misplaced stuff like this, please try to direct the users, and if at all possible, the instructors in charge, to [[Wikipedia:School and university projects]] and ask them to use the resources there to ''do it right''.  When class projects are run the right way they can be a WONDERFUL benefit to the 'pedia.  When its just a bunch of students and their professor flogging around blindly, you get stuff like this.  I think we need to really help these people along, and try to work with them rather than scare them off.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#000099;">Jayron</span>]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009900;">32</span>]]''''' 03:08, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
***<small>Draping cape over Jayron32's shoulders, leading him offstage. [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 03:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)</small>
****<small> that may be the first time in my life I ever got the James Brown treatment... --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#000099;">Jayron</span>]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009900;">32</span>]]''''' 03:41, 16 September 2009 (UTC)</small>
*****<small>Sorry, couldn't resist:<font style="color:#999999">you are</font><font style="color:#A9A9A9"> going to </font><font style="color:#B9B9B9">make me </font><font style="color:#C9C9C9">go </font><font style="color:#D9D9D9">b</font><font style="color:#DFDFDF">l</font><font style="color:#D9D9D9">i</font><font style="color:#E9E9E9">n</font><font style="color:#F0F0F0">d.</font>[[User:Sinneed| - Sinneed]] ([[User talk:Sinneed|talk]]) 03:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)</small>
***[[User talk:Nick]] is the place for that request in this particular instance.  See also [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive491#Disruptive school project?]]. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 14:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
*I've e-mailed somebody at the university, hopefully I'll be able to get in touch with the instructor. [[User:TimVickers|Tim Vickers]] ([[User talk:TimVickers|talk]]) 01:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
**If you do, please tell xem that {{user|SFL123}}, {{user|Maxaroni2006}}, {{user|Pjones77}}, and {{user|Pat1019}} are to be commended on their good uses of edit summaries, from which the others could learn a thing or two, but that quite a few of the class, including some of the aforementioned, should learn to ''stop signing their edits to articles''.  {{user|Ddoll01}} is to be commended for [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Clintonomics&diff=prev&oldid=312611012 attempting to improve an article's verifiability], but there are a lot ''more [[WP:RS|reliable]]'' sources that can be cited for that particular piece of information.  And a lot of the copyediting from several (although not quite all) of the class ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=7.92x24mm&diff=prev&oldid=312580866 this] being but one example) has been good work.<p><small>Yes, you can infer from this that I've trudged through all of the various contributions histories so far.  &#9786;</small><p>{{user|Sandybaldwin}} is claiming to be the instructor, by the way.  (See xyr talk page.)   [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 02:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Copyvio repeat offender ==

{{user|Americus55}} seems to have a hard time understanding image copyright. The talk page is littered with dozens of improperly sourced/blatantly copyvio images. This user was given a [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAmericus55&diff=307883131&oldid=307862763 last warning on August 14, 2009], but has since uploaded [[:File:Ronald Gene Simmons.jpg]]  with a bogus {{tl|PD}} tag as well as [[:File:Gov. John Baldacci - August 18, 2007.jpg]], which is clearly marked as copyrighted on the source page. This seems to be a nagging problem that isn't resolving itself.--[[User:Blargh29|Blargh29]] ([[User talk:Blargh29|talk]]) 02:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:I have left a message notifying him of this discussion on his talk page. [[User:Basket of Puppies|<span style="color:brown; font-size:small; font-family:Constantia;">'''Basket of Puppies'''</span>]] 04:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

== Breech of [[Wikipedia:Civility#Engaging_in_incivility|Engaging in Incivility]] rules by [[User:Jasmeet 181]] ==

I would like to lodge an official complaint with regards to [[User:Jasmeet 181]] who has breeched '''Section 2/Sub-section D''' of the [[Wikipedia:Civility#Engaging_in_incivility]] rule; which states ''"quoting another editor out-of-context to give the impression they hold views they do not hold, or to malign them"''.  I have asked this user on a few occasions to remove any comments which quote references of my name and members of my family, as this violates the rule.  However, they are refusing to abide to this request..  The quotes made by this user can be found via [[Talk:List_of_channels_on_Virgin_TV#Section_break_1|here]].  When you read their points numbered 4; 5; 7 and 8, they clearly show that a breech of this rule has been made.  I would appreciate if another editor could look into this for me, and take any appropriate action deemed necessary.  Kindest Regards, [[User:Pr3st0n|Pr3st0n]] ([[User talk:Pr3st0n|talk]]) 02:52, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:Firstly, Wikipedia is not a legal system - no need to quote Section X Subsection Y at us. I can't see him quoting you out of context, mainly because he doesn't actually quote you at all. He does make references to your brother et al, but as far as I can see these are appropriate, correct and relevant comments. Any information about your family is information you've given out, and isn't protected by [[WP:OUT|the normal rules]]. [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 03:02, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::I apologise for quoting ''Section X Subsection Y'', I didn't know any other way to word it other than that.  In "point 4" of this users remark, he states ''"Pr3st0n agreed with this when Chocobogamer explained it so it does not appear to be an issue nor is it listed anywhere within the article"''.  Considering the main discussion surrounding these points is to do with HD Channels, the user writes down that quote which was connected to another discussion.  In "point 5" of the user he writes ''"Pr3st0n has not provided a copy of the advertisement"''.  My actual comment was ''"Screen shots can be obtains and supplied if required as proof"'', no other user has acknowledge if screen shots need to be made yet, therefore [[User:Jasmeet 181]] has quoted me out-of-context in both those points.  the main discussion at hand here is a dispute resolution regarding HD Channels on Virgin Media.  Yet the user is adding questions/points regarding a different matter unrelated to the discussion at hand.  I have asked Jasmeet 181 politely on a few occasions to remove those comments, but he is refusing to abide to my request.  Surely if a user puts a request forward, then something should be done?! ([[User:Pr3st0n|Pr3st0n]] ([[User talk:Pr3st0n|talk]]) 03:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC))
:::That's not what a quote is. Quoting part of your statement (example: you say " the main discussion at hand here is a dispute resolution regarding HD Channels on Virgin Media.  Yet the user is adding questions/points regarding a different matter unrelated to the discussion at hand.", I say "the user said 'the main discussion at hand here is a dispute resolution regarding HD Channels on Virgin Media.  Yet the user is adding questions/points regarding a different matter unrelated to the discussion at hand'") out of context to imply you meant something you didn't is what that section refers to. At no point has he done that. Example, point 5; he hasn't quoted you at all, he's just said that you haven't provided a copy of the ad. Have you? No, so it's a perfectly valid statement. Note that screenshots are not considered reliable sources. [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 03:22, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::'''(EC)'''
:::For anyone interested, here are the statements by [[User:Jasmeet 181|Jasmeet 181]].  If you read all the way through the (long and convoluted) talk page, these are completely appropriate.  Sometimes the names of contributors have to be mentioned in discourse, that's not incivility, and the ''brother'' mention is in no way incivil, it's perfectly in context...:
{{Quotation|('''4''') The press release states that ''"4HD will be available to all of Virgin Media’s TV customers at no extra cost, alongside the BBC HD channel."'' As the M pack is the minimum package available on Virgin Media's cable platform, this is correct. ''"Virgin Media will make its full range of HD channels available at no extra cost to its XL TV customers."'' So to receive the full range (6) of Virgin Media's HD channels, the customer would have to have the XL package since FX HD, National Geographic Channel HD and MTVNHD are exclusive to it (ESPN HD is included in it too). Pr3st0n agreed with this when Chocobogamer explained it so it does not appear to be an issue nor is it listed anywhere within the article. <ref name="Press">http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1313698&highlight=</ref>

</br></br>('''5''') Pr3st0n has not provided a copy of the advertisement from the national press so I assume that it is based on the above. If there is a genuine error in the advertisement then the [[Advertising Standards Authority (United Kingdom)|Advertising Standards Authority]] are the correct people to contact. <ref name="ASA">http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/about/Guided+Tours/Consumers/What+types+of+ads+and+promotions+does+the+ASA+look+into.htm</ref>

</br></br>('''7''') Pr3st0n's original source, his brother-in-law, is not verifiable ([[WP:SOURCES]]).

</br></br>('''8''') Customer specific issues should be dealt with by contacting a customer services representative, as for screenshots they would probably be self published ([[WP:SPS]]) and represent original research ([[Wikipedia:No original research]]) since ''"Unsourced material obtained from a Wikipedian's personal experience, such as an unpublished eyewitness account, should not be added to articles. It would violate both this policy and Verifiability, and would cause Wikipedia to become a primary source for that material."'' ''"Original images created by a Wikipedia editor are not, as a class, considered original research – as long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy."''}}

:::''[[User:Peace and Passion|Peace and Passion]]'' <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml">&#9774;</span>&nbsp; ''([[User talk:Peace and Passion|"I'm listening...."]])'' 03:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::::I agree with Ironholds. I see no breach of policy here, and Jasmeet 181 is merely explaining how that particular situation stands with regard to Wikipedia policy. I have notified him about this thread, btw. ≈&nbsp;[[User:Chamal_N|'''C'''hamal]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Chamal_N|<sup><span style="color:#C71585;">talk</span></sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Chamal_N|¤]] 03:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::I clearly understand what all you kind-hearted editors are saying.  But I personally feel its an attack towards myself.  This has been going on for a while now.  A few other users have noticed [[User:Jasmeet 181]]s comments towards me, and even they have noticed a very borderline act of incivility going on.  By reading [[User_talk:Pr3st0n#Re:_User_Talk_Pages|this]] section of my talk page, you will see what has happened over the last few days, along with visiting the talk pages of the other users involved in that link just given.  Some unnecessary outbursts have been made in my direction by this user.  If someone makes a request to have their name removed from a comment, and this request is ignored, then that violates human rights.  All I ask is that the user removes any mention to my name, and that of my family from their remarks, in order to maintain a peaceful, fair, and open discussion. ([[User:Pr3st0n|Pr3st0n]] ([[User talk:Pr3st0n|talk]]) 03:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC))
:::It doesn't violate any kind of human right. If you [[WP:OUT|brought your family into the discussion as an argument]], you can't ask for others to remove them from the counter-argument because you don't like them being used; through your actions you've made it very clear that you have no problem with them being used on a public website. [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 03:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Of course, I understand that about the family issue.  But that part has nothing to do with the main question to which the dispute is about.  I brought a member of my family into discussion over another part of the article, to which was later resolved.  [[User:Jasmeet 181]] is now bringing this discussion about my brother-in-law into an unrelated question in the dispute process.  That is why I asked for the reference of my family to be removed in the first place, as the relevance between that topic, and the one to which we are trying to resolve are not linked. ([[User:Pr3st0n|Pr3st0n]] ([[User talk:Pr3st0n|talk]]) 03:33, 16 September 2009 (UTC))
:::::It seems perfectly relevant. You're discussing sourcing of your points, and have earlier claimed that your brother is a source for some of your claims. Jasmeet pointing out that your brother isn't a reliable source seems entirely relevant. [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 03:38, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Furthermore, I had already agreed in the end with all users involved that a member of my family who works for Virgin Media cannot be used as a source of information for Wikipedia articles.  So I can't see why a member of my family is now being brought into a dispute, when I have already acknowledge the fact that he can't. ([[User:Pr3st0n|Pr3st0n]] ([[User talk:Pr3st0n|talk]]) 03:36, 16 September 2009 (UTC))
:::::It's [[WP:AGF|quite possible]] that Jasmeet didn't see that point. You can ask a user to remove bits from his arguments for whatever reason, but you can't ''order'' him to, nor get us to unless you have a valid reason under a guideline or policy. Your initially quoted policy does not apply to this situation, and I can't think of any others that apply. [[WP:AGF]] is something you should read; until there is evidence otherwise, assume the most reasonable thing of the other editor. Jasmeet is more likely to have not read your retort as he is to be trying to deliberately provoke or annoy you. [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 03:38, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::{{ec}} Jasmeet may remove the info per your request as a courtesy, but note that he is not under any obligation to do so. ≈&nbsp;[[User:Chamal_N|'''C'''hamal]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Chamal_N|<sup><span style="color:#C71585;">talk</span></sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Chamal_N|¤]] 03:43, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Jasmeet was aware that I made the point about my brother-in-law's information not being a relevant source of information.  So clearly he is ignoring that fact in order to deliberately provoke or annoy me, as you also pointed out.  I have done everything within my power to maintain [[WP:AGF]] throughout all of this, but my patience is starting to wear thin now.  All I ask is that the reference point to my brother-in-law be removed, to which I have requested to [[User:Jasmeet 181|Jasmeet]], but so far this request is either being denied or ignored.  ([[User:Pr3st0n|Pr3st0n]] ([[User talk:Pr3st0n|talk]]) 03:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC))
::::::::Again, he's quite within his rights to do that. [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 03:46, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::What? He's within his rights to deliberately provoke or annoy me?  Or within his rights to ignore my original point regarding the brother-in-law issue? [[User:Pr3st0n|Pr3st0n]] ([[User talk:Pr3st0n|talk]]) 03:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::He's within his rights to ignore or deny a request you make for him to redact his statements. You being annoyed and provoked by something does not necessarily make it a deliberaly annoying and provoking action, nor does it make it one that AN/I needs to be dealt with. You used your brother in an argument. He referenced your earlier comment in a counter-argument, then refused to remove that counter-argument when you complained that he'd brought your brother into it. By your own actions you made your brother part of the issue, and Jasmeet is allowed to retain that comment if he so chooses. What we have here is a non-issue; Jasmeet has not violated any guidelines or policies. [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 03:51, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I fully acknowledge I'm being completely unhelpful here, but (for the sake of my othographical sanity) the correct spelling is '''"breach"'''. Now, please - do continue. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 03:54, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Looks like an "agree to disagree" situation - although in some other incidents running up to this, it is clear that the user shown intentions to "spark up the fire" by using some unnecessary comments, and a few too personal ones too, to which I provided the link to my talk page which highlighted this obvious attacks. ([[User:Pr3st0n|Pr3st0n]] ([[User talk:Pr3st0n|talk]]) 03:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC))
::::Is it possible then that I can prevent this user from having any contact me for a while?  Not sure if it is possible for users to block certain users on an individual basis, like it is possible on other groups, such as Facebook, etc.  If it is possible for this to happen, then could someone please inform me how to go about it.  Regards ([[User:Pr3st0n|Pr3st0n]] ([[User talk:Pr3st0n|talk]]) 03:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC))
:::::Only the old fashioned way: Ignore the editor.[[User:Sinneed| - Sinneed]] ([[User talk:Sinneed|talk]]) 04:02, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::(ec)Not directly. If you have a problem with a user then, short of a formal order that he cease contacting you (which isn't justified) you just have to avoid him. If you have a problem with him, avoid the pages where he hangs out. [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 04:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Thanks Sinneed and Ironholds; thought it might be that way.  I will 100% ignore the user, but I cannot guarantee that he will continue to bombard me with unnecessary comments.  If the user does resort to using such tone of context, and as long as I ignore them, then action can be lodged again - am I correct in assuming this be the case? I apologise for any inconvenience caused here; and I much appreciate your valued help in this matter. ([[User:Pr3st0n|Pr3st0n]] ([[User talk:Pr3st0n|talk]]) 04:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC))
::::::No. He can agree to avoid ''you'', but short of that ''you'' just have to avoid ''him''. The entire point here is that your argument and request are without grounds in either policy or guideline - we're not going to sanction him for doing something he isn't bound not to do. [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 04:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Looks like Jasmeet has now decided to accept my request to avoid using my name, and naming a member of my family.  Although some of the points can clearly be seen that Jasmeet has just changed the reference to my user name "Pr3st0n", with a different choice of reference "A User", to which I am now satisfied with.  Thank you for your help with this. ([[User:Pr3st0n|Pr3st0n]] ([[User talk:Pr3st0n|talk]]) 04:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC))

:::::::Thank you for notifying me Chamal. Bear in mind that the the topic has advanced significantly since I started typing. I had only quoted Pr3st0n once in the passage, during an explanation of point 7, the quote is directly taken from Pr3st0n and referenced.[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_channels_on_Virgin_TV&diff=314153361&oldid=314093521] I did also reference his understanding with another users explanation. I am not aware of a rule to saying that I can't refer to a user by their by username and I don't know any of your family or their names or insult them in anyway beyond saying that they were incorrect. Whether you agreed that your <s>brother-in-law</s> was verifiable or not was not clear, you moved to questioning Virgin Media's website besides which clarification can do no harm especially since comments were requested from other editors and the entire discussion is lengthy. It is entirely relevant that I would say your username since that is a discussion started by yourself and I have not used it in an offensive manner or to suggest anything that you did not say. I have explained the reasons why I did mention your name in the article discussion. During the entire discussion you have either taking anything I say as an offensive in some way or have ignored it while possibly attempting to bait me. For this reason I walked away from the discussion (admittedly not subtly) when accusations were again thrown around. I do admit to crossing the line of civility on one occasion and for that I offer an apology but Pr3st0n, the same users have also acknowledged similar behaviour from you. I also do not recall telling Pr3st0n that he is not welcome as claimed in the the last post of the article discussion. I will agree reword your <s>"brother-in-law"</s> to something less specific since he did not add himself to the discussion but I see no reason to remove your username. I have only contacted you through your talk page once so saying "I cannot guarantee that he will continue to bombard me with unnecessary comments." is not helpful at all. Lastly, the IP editor [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_channels_on_Virgin_TV&diff=314271693&oldid=314253799] is not me or I would have logged in, I honestly hope that it is not you logging out since the ISP is from Telewest (Virgin Media) who held the cable franchise for Preston. - [[User:Jasmeet 181|Jasmeet_181]] ([[User talk:Jasmeet 181|talk]]) 04:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Jasmeet, I thought you made the adjustment which you now say you haven't.  I didn't look in the history to see who made the change, although as it was a change made in your points, I assumed you had made them.  I would not go down such a petty route to with you now accuse me of, by making any falsified edits using a IP.  All my edits are made using my log in user name.  So to this IP that you speak of, is not mine.  I have been logged in here all this time, awaiting replies to this thread, as you will have noticed by the amount of replies posted by myself above. Your apology for crossing over the civility line is accepted.  I just ask that a more peaceful resolution, and actions are taken from this day forth. ([[User:Pr3st0n|Pr3st0n]] ([[User talk:Pr3st0n|talk]]) 04:38, 16 September 2009 (UTC))
:::::::He's not "accusing" you of anything more than you said about him. Right now you're creating twice the hot air that Jasmeet is, and this discussion has done nothing but make you look bad. I would advise you to step away now. [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 04:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::All I request then, with Jasmeet's agreement, is that we both avoid contact with each other from now on.  I can see that an IP user has made a change, to which has now caused an unwanted argument between Jasmeet and myself.  Although I didn't say in my comment above that Jasmeet was "accusing" me, I was just helping to clarify the fact that I was online at the time the IP user made the change.  I was not aware at that change that it wasn't Jasmeet, the assumption was purely the fact that a change was made on something which that user wrote, and I had no reason to suspect that anyone other than Jasmeet had made the alterations.  Now that it has been brought to my attention that a different IP user made the change, I was acknowledging it.  Subsequently, a further comment has been made where such accusation has been made indirectly, to which I replied to show I had already acknowledge the fact a IP user made the change, and have now requested that Jasmeet and myself avoid contact with each other, despite the fact that I had previous to this new "hot air" thing, asked Jasmeet that we keep things professional and strictly to the DRP at hand.  I now wish to retract that, and avoid any contact with the user.  In my opinion, this case is now closed.  ([[User:Pr3st0n|Pr3st0n]] ([[User talk:Pr3st0n|talk]]) 05:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC))

:::I did no such thing and the time of my 'further comment' pre-dates you contacting me. This definitely does not need to be discussed further. - [[User:Jasmeet 181|Jasmeet_181]] ([[User talk:Jasmeet 181|talk]]) 05:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::::No offense to either of you and i aint saying either is at fault, but i think you are both best to leave the dicussion now until other comments on it and then reply to any question direct to yourslef and not critise either of eahc other in the rpely just meantion each other if it part of the question. If it does nto get resolve at the current stage i will take it to next level of dispute resolution and so on untila consesus is made. I also think preston just becuase i personal apogolised you should not be expecting something similar from jasmeet or for jasmeet to accept he remvoes references about yourself or your family as admins have point out he is not i the wrong as he using it to state his concerns on the issues. I only apogolise because i knew i could of offend you by accident so i just wanted to be sure i never and if i did admit i had bene wrong.--[[User:Andrewcrawford|<span style="color:LightBlue;">Andrewcrawford</span>]] ([[User talk:Andrewcrawford|<small>talk</small>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Andrewcrawford|<small>contrib</small>]]) 09:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[Fethullah Gulen]] ==

{{resolved|Complainant dismissed as sockpuppet. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 00:06, 18 September 2009 (UTC)}}

The biography page for [[Fethullah Gulen]] is unstable for long time. There are two admins and users owned the article and ban anyone who support one of the two versions they dislike ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Fethullah_G%C3%BClen&diff=313400546&oldid=312932478]), using a pretext of the editors being a suckpuppet of a single person (see how last *quite* a few editors are banned without a checkuser decision from the history page). They consistently blank the page and kill tens of verified links and references. If a newbie editor does this, it would be called vandalism and he would be banned. I would like to ask some prudent admins to look into the case. I also like this biography article be protected according to new wiki rules [http://tech.msn.com/products/articlepcw.aspx?cp-documentid=21535424&gt1=40000]. An expert control could stabilize the article. Thanks. [[User:Icaz|Icaz]] ([[User talk:Icaz|talk]]) 04:22, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:I'm looking into it. From a quick glance the article has a few POV and [[WP:NOR]] issues, but many of the reversions I examined took place because the rewrite was wildly POV, even if it was referenced. I'll raise my content observations on the article talk page. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 05:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:: POV statements can be rephrased of course. I do not say that either one of the existing versions is prefect. But editors has no chance to edit the article. If they edits something similar to the one the admis dislike, it is enough for them to be banned. Would not that be possible to ask help from a volunteer academic expert? Don't the new regulations enforce that? [[User:Icaz|Icaz]] ([[User talk:Icaz|talk]]) 06:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)  

:Second comment - after some more extensive reading it is clear that this is a page that has undergone extensive sockpuppetry and hardcore axe-grinding over an extended period. The admins involved seem to have done a fine job in a messy situation. Nothing further to do, other than offer to give support to the front-line admins, should they need it. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 05:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:: It is a messy situation but the point is that admins has their part in the mess too. Almost none of the editors were banned through regular policies. Are those policies established to be broken by admins? [[User:Icaz|Icaz]] ([[User talk:Icaz|talk]]) 06:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:::In my persuing I found no evidence to support your statement that ''Almost none of the editors were banned through regular policies.''. However I have not conducted a definitive examination. 

:::If you could provide evidence of such admin conduct I assure you it will be impartially reviewed. If any admin is found to have abused their authority they will be dealt with swiftly and severely. (Contrary to common perception, we are actually quite harsh on our fellow admins and do not tolerate abuse of privilege.) [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 07:02, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: I wihsh it was true. OK, here is a few examples:
:::: * Editors can only cry at the door at this point: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fethullah_G%C3%BClen#Muhammed_F._G.C3.BClen], they have no chance to edit. Otherwise, a single edit enough for you to be banned, based on the wisdom of the admins; no normative decisions. Here is last two: [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Fethullah_G%C3%BClen&diff=313402277&oldid=313400546 single edit] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Greatwikier banned,] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Fethullah_G%C3%BClen&diff=312932478&oldid=312929431 single edit and banned.]
:::: * Did not you have a chance to see this section ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fethullah_G%C3%BClen#Right.2C_that.27s_enough])? One editor (Nurefsan) is banned without a checkuser decision. He was only trying to work for consensus ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fethullah_G%C3%BClen#Protected_again]). The admin BlackKite banned him based on a request from another editor, who was involved in the edit war, distorted the facts ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nurefsan&diff=298893341&oldid=298893160]), and who consider himself as a warier who has to save his country ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fethullah_G%C3%BClen&diff=298802829&oldid=298797294]). The admin moreover waited someone revert the article and protected on their version ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fethullah_G%C3%BClen#Protected_again]). They could not discuss with him as he was answering their questions. They took the easy way ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fethullah_G%C3%BClen#Right.2C_that.27s_enough]). 
:::: * Another editor (Mutantan): Tipotry thinks "He's probably back" and banns another editor without any checkuser process ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fethullah_G%C3%BClen#He.27s_probably_back_in_a_new_disguise]). What a wise decision: he is probably back!
:::: * How about user Zinhar? He proved by the edit summaries ill-intention of the editor starting an edit war, declaring it publicly, ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fethullah_G%C3%BClen#Right.2C_that.27s_enough]), bu he himself was banned.
:::: * I could only read the active pages and come up with this many. It looks there are many others in the history pages. If you need more evidence I can work a little on others as well. Thanks. [[User:Icaz|Icaz]] ([[User talk:Icaz|talk]]) 16:35, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

'''Suggestion:''' Please use this new biography-article policy for this biography and ask help from some volunteer experts to stabilize the article. [[User:Icaz|Icaz]] ([[User talk:Icaz|talk]]) 16:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

'''Review''' - Judging by your [[Special:Contributions/Icaz|contributions]] you seem remarkably like a [[WP:SOCK|sockpuppet]] yourself. Your editing profile is identical to the standard sockpuppet [[Modus operandi|MO]], and I'd be surprised if you could find a single admin on Wikipedia who would not immediately dismiss you as one.

Regardless of that, I examined all of your evidence. I find no merit in your complaint as all of the blocks seem consistent with standard sockpuppetry management. For the sake of thoroughness I will invite BlackKite to comment on his actions, but I see no legitimate grounds for investigation. (I stress that BlackKite is merely being invited and he is free to ignore the invitation.) [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 23:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Rolling back my comments on an ArbCom talk page ==

Look, I understand that I'm not holding a majority viewpoint of the recent WMC desysop. However, I do not understand why I can't express this frustration on the appropriate talk page. First, a rollback, and then a removal of my comments to my [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&action=rollback&from=Risker&token=a925255cf266b2a80cc07a9f2a20c2ba%2B%5C talk page]. If I didn't want anyone to read it, why wouldn't I have just posted on my talk page to begin with? Oh right, because I was actually questioning an ArbCom decision on an ArbCom talk page. All I got out of it was a couple of closed threads, a rollback, a couple admonishments on my talk page, and an I'll advised move of my comments from the ArbCom talk page to mine. Never mind being called a troll. I am not a troll simply because I find the dismissive attitude expressed toward me in an ArbCom talk page in regards to my opinion of an ArbCom case to be offensive. Their is an extreme difference between a troll and a long term editor an admin who is simply in strong disagreement with a desysop. [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] ([[User talk:Hiberniantears|talk]]) 04:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
*Seriously give it a rest. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 04:35, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:(after several ECs) You weren't questioning an ArbCom decision, you were raising a general indictment against the entire ArbCom. Constructive discussion, even open criticism of ArbCom is welcome. Statements like "Arbcom is a corrupt failure" and "you look so incredibly corrupt that it is painful." is merely [[WP:SOAPBOX]]ing and not really appropriate. Look, criticising a specific decision is fine, with specific problems that you have with that decision is fine, but I think your comments went over the line. Calling all ArbCom members corrupt is a serious accusation, bordering on personal attack, and not terribly helpful at solving anything. I think you should take Risker's advice and voluntarily take a few hours off to gain your composure and consider rephrasing your criticism into something less vitriolic and more likely to do more than simply make other people react viscerally... --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#000099;">Jayron</span>]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009900;">32</span>]]''''' 04:40, 16 September 2009 (UTC) 
:More seriously (in my view), the WT:AC/N has now been fully protected so that non-admin users can't even comment on ArbCom notices / decisions... this only days after the case pages of the WMC/Abd case were also fully protected to prevent any comment.  ArbCom may be embarassed about the mess they created but that doesn't justify the Clerks preventing formal comment being made.  Surely there is an admin willing to undo this higly inappropriate protection?  [[User:EdChem|EdChem]] ([[User talk:EdChem|talk]]) 04:39, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::Oh for goodness sakes, the clerks are not political staffers, they have very specific duties to maintain decorum. One clerk reverted, another clerk apparently out of a sense of mercy decided not to block, but instead protect a page.--[[User:Tznkai|Tznkai]] ([[User talk:Tznkai|talk]]) 04:42, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::It wasn't protected by an arb member. And it was immediately unprotected by a clerk. I would tone down the rhetoric please. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 04:43, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

[[WP:Oh I say, what are you doing? Come down from there at once! Really, you're making a frightful exhibition of yourself.]] Having strong opinions is fine, voicing them in a calm and reasonable manner is fine. Soapboxing, on the other hand, serves no end but drama. [[user talk:Skomorokh|<span style="background:#222222; color:#ffffff; font-family:Goudy Old Style;">&nbsp;Skomorokh&nbsp;</span>]] 04:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:First of all it was bloody expensive to get the Spiderman costume. Second of all, I wouldn't have needed it if my original comments weren't suppressed. Drama is the only thing Wikipedia produces effectively. [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] ([[User talk:Hiberniantears|talk]]) 04:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::<quote> ''Drama is the only thing Wikipedia produces effectively''. <endquote> Not true - we also produce elite [[WP:DEADHORSE|morto-equine percussionists]]. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 05:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::that, sir, brought a smile to my face. A tip of the hat to a fine use of wit. [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] ([[User talk:Hiberniantears|talk]]) 04:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Sockpuppet of blocked editors Leveque and Loulou 50 ==

*{{userlinks|Mootoo}} New editor, SPA, claims to be blocked editors Leveque and Loulou 50
* {{userlinks|Leveque}} [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User%3ALeveque&diff=142831893&oldid=142828838 claims to be Alain Leveque]
* {{userlinks|Loulou 50}} [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ARodrigues&diff=110997647&oldid=110976505 claims to be Alain Leveque] An older account he no longer uses.
* {{userlinks|58.175.169.39}}  An ip address he's used.
* {{userlinks|58.175.170.104}} An ip address he's used.
Claims that the material he's restoring and vandalizing is "my own work" [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:Loulou_50&diff=prev&oldid=314262698] 
This was expected given his hostility and threats when blocked [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Leveque&diff=prev&oldid=311752133] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Leveque&diff=prev&oldid=312308873] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Leveque&diff=prev&oldid=313145838].  He's restored links to his articles (which is what he was blocked for previously) and vandalized a number of user and talk pages. We just need someone to jump in and block Mootoo.  See [[Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#User_Leveque]] for details. --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] ([[User talk:Ronz|talk]]) 04:41, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 
:Mootoo is Leveque's sockpuppet. Loulou50, i stopped using a long time ago simply because i forgot the password. So, after having my work slaughtered, i'm withdrawing my articles from my user page. Is that COI or spam too? :Block all you like, but Ronz, you are more of a liability than an asset to Wiki. Apart from putting me offside, how many other wiki contributors have you alienated over the years? How does a link under other constitute spam? Am i trying to sell you Ham? Am i? It's an integral part of both mauritius and Rodrigues's history which mean a lot to many people. Why not give readers a choice? We'll see. [[Special:Contributions/58.175.169.142|58.175.169.142]] ([[User talk:58.175.169.142|talk]]) 06:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::Yes, obvious sockpuppet. Took care of a few of his edits to other account user pages. --[[User:A3RO|<span style="font-family:Leelawadee; color:green; font-size:medium;">A3RO</span>]][[User talk:A3RO|<span style="font-family:Leelawadee; color:blue; font-size:medium;"> (mailbox)</span>]] 07:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Leveque was [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Leveque blocked] one month on September 11 for spamming links to his own work to articles relating to [[Mauritius]] and [[Rodrigues]]. He [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Leveque&diff=prev&oldid=314278811 continues to leave personal attacks for all and sundry]. (''"Why would anyone contribute to wiki only to have their work slaughtered by gung-ho little ferals?"''). I suggest an indef block for both Leveque and Mootoo. He left the message "Indefinite block please" on his page at [[User:Leveque]]. This issue [[WP:COIN#User Leveque|is still open at the COI noticeboard]]. By following the links at COIN, you can see that persuasion was tried in the past. These efforts did not succeed. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 13:54, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

== Anon IP vandalism on [[Erich Gonzales]], [[Incubus (band)|Incubus]]-related articles and [[Samsung Heavy Industries]] ==

In the past week or two, I've reverted several vandalisms traceable to several anon IP accounts on the following articles:

*[[Erich Gonzales]] - a [[Philippines|Philippine]] actress
*[[Incubus (band)]] and some Incubus album articles
*[[Template: Incubus (band)]]
*[[Samsung Heavy Industries]]
*[[Fuji Heavy Industries]]

Why the anon vandals decide to edit Erich Gonzales, Incubus and the heavy industry companies is beyond my comprehension, I still don't see what the connections are. At any rate, I dug deeper and discovered that most of the vandals came from IP addresses in the range of 112.20.*.*. To wit, these are the anons I've left warnings on:

*{{IPvandal|112.202.61.35}}
*{{IPvandal|112.202.17.241}}
*{{IPvandal|112.202.58.158}}
*{{IPvandal|112.202.13.251}}
*{{IPvandal|112.202.19.144}}

--- [[User:Titopao|Tito Pao]] ([[User talk:Titopao|talk]]) 09:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:I have been informed by CheckUser that there would be a bit of collateral damage with regards to a rangeblock. I am going to wait on any possible semi-protection at this time as the three articles in question, [[Incubus (band)]], [[Erich Gonzales]], and [[Samsung Heavy Industries]] has not seen any recent vandalism. [[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 20:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::Thanks for the reply. Just to give you a heads up, the vandal edits usually happen in the afternoon, Manila time ([[UTC]]+8). I'll see what will come up later today. Must be a bunch of high school or college fan boys with lots of vacant time in their hands :P --- [[User:Titopao|Tito Pao]] ([[User talk:Titopao|talk]]) 00:19, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Whoops...just as I expected. Here's another one:

:::*{{IPvandal|112.202.124.74}}

:::--- [[User:Titopao|Tito Pao]] ([[User talk:Titopao|talk]]) 01:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Rodney Lough possibly issues a "legal threat", or more likely just asks a question ==

It's all very confusing. Take a look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ARodney_Lough%2C_Jr.&diff=314119139&oldid=310812784 this] for yourselves, and feel free to act thereon. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 10:14, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:Hmmm... it does vaguely border on being a legal threat but it's not quite strong enough to warrant action. Quite an amusing talk page for what is actually a very small article. For someone as successful as he claims to be, he certainly spends a lot of time trying to amplify his achievements on Wikipedia (and shouting at other editors). [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 10:50, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::Yes, it is indeed quite a page. (And it's for what once upon a time was [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Rodney_Lough,_Jr.&oldid=274151439 quite an article].) Problem is, this latest comment is lucid, and if (or in so far as) it's not a legal threat, then it's something else. I suppose it's a request for information about where to lodge a complaint, either about the article or about me. Somebody might like to help him draw up an RfC. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 11:00, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:::I've left a mildly heavy-handed [[User_talk:Rodneyloughjr|comment on his talk page]] and I shall sit back and see what happens next. If he calms down we'll let it slide, otherwise there is no alternative but to block his account indefinitely as per the terms of [[WP:LEGAL]]. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 11:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::::Mm, I love the clause ''please inform me so that I can commence the administrative requirements'': it's so dignified, you sound like an undertaker. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 11:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC) .... PS If anyone did block this UID, the block would probably have to be followed up by an sprotect of the article and perhaps its talk page too: as the talk page shows, RL appears to have a lot of IP numbers at his disposal. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 11:54, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::LOL - I have my moments of inspiration. Being an administrator is quite handy when people don't know that it actually doesn't mean very much. BTW An sprotect shouldn't be an issue if blocking doesn't fix the issue. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 12:00, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::It's an attempt at intimidation, therefore it's a legal threat. Its speaker must either retract it or be blocked. No middle ground. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]] 13:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::It sounds like the user wants to "escalate" "this" and probably isn't familiar with Wiki policies. I will also leave note on his talk page about this thread. --[[Special:Contributions/98.182.55.163|98.182.55.163]] ([[User talk:98.182.55.163|talk]]) 13:46, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I think this is all in retaliation with respect to this AFD: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rodney Lough, Jr.]]. [[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 16:58, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:Indeed, considering he wants to complain about Gwen's handling of the article which, as far as I can tell, solely consisted of her nominating it for AfD. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 17:00, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::No, I think this complaint is about Hoary, whom Mr. Lough Jr seems to regard as a manifestation of pure evil. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 00:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Actually, the article seems to be rather flattering to Mr. Lough, who is presented as the next [[Ansel Adams]].  It doesn't even mention that Lough is being sued for misappropriating trade secrets of [[Peter Lik]], a competing gallery owner.[http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/aug/24/strip-photo-galleries-legal-battle-over-trade-secr/] --[[User:Nagle|John Nagle]] ([[User talk:Nagle|talk]]) 05:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

:::[[Pre-Christian_Alpine_traditions#Krampus|Krampus]], ''c'est moi.'' -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 11:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

== Block of either [[User:SlashinatorX]] or [[User:SlashinatorZ]] ==

Per the decline of recent request [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/SlashinatorX]], I ask that either one or the other is blocked. Cheers. --[[User:Law Lord|Law Lord]] ([[User talk:Law Lord|talk]]) 14:05, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:I left notices for each party that they are being discussed here. [[User:Basket of Puppies|<span style="color:brown; font-size:small; font-family:Constantia;">'''Basket of Puppies'''</span>]] 15:43, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:: Nice.  Stated goal on [[User:SlashinatorX]] is to do everything contrary to the [[WP:MOS]]. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 16:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Not intentionally, I think. I think they just want to correct grammar and wording, chances are they never read the MOS.  [[User:A little insignificant|A little insignificant]] <sup>[[User talk:A little insignificant|talk to me!]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/A little insignificant|(please!)]]</sub> 16:41, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

::::Regardless of intentions, the guy should limit himself/herself to one account. --[[User:Law Lord|Law Lord]] ([[User talk:Law Lord|talk]]) 17:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/SlashinatorX&curid=24357197&diff=314411474&oldid=314409978 Closed]. --[[User:Law Lord|Law Lord]] ([[User talk:Law Lord|talk]]) 20:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:: No sockpuppets [[User:Dr. Szląchski|Dr. Szląchski ]] ([[User talk:Dr. Szląchski|talk]]) 23:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== IP editors stating they are banned {{user|JedRothwell}} disrupting [[Talk:Cold_fusion]] ==

How long are editors going to have to deal with sock after sock after sock at [[Talk:Cold_fusion]]? The article was just placed under Discressionary Sanctions by ArbCom. JedRothwell was banned from wikipedia on 30 January 2009, persuant to [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration&oldid=268329651#Arbitrator_views_and_discussion], but he keeps coming back to tell us all about the new and exciting proofs of cold fusion that are on his own personal cold-fusion library, and reverting any attempt by mere-users to enforce his topic ban. [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] ([[User talk:Hipocrite|talk]]) 17:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:Blocked the current IP indefinitely. [[User:DJ Clayworth|DJ Clayworth]] ([[User talk:DJ Clayworth|talk]]) 20:51, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::IP editors aren't supposed to be blocked indefinitely, this should be reduced to some finite length. ''[[User:Hut 8.5|<b style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</b>]]'' 10:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== What's the problem with these 3RR reports? ==

Two days ago, I filed a 3RR report at 3RR/N [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FEdit_warring&diff=313975990&oldid=313975581] showing what I thought was at least a violation of 3RR, and with other evidence showing some pretty bad edit warring was going on. The report was dismissed as not being a violation. The admin who dismissed it had three minutes between that edit [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FEdit_warring&diff=314048470&oldid=314048160] and a previous edit to another report (see previous diff; perhaps he'd done the research before hand -- I'm not complaining, but it's worth noting). That would be fair enough if the admin could point out to me where I went wrong. 

I asked. I [[User talk:Nja247#Please help me understand this|asked again]]. I'm still waiting for an explanation. That admin did say that he saw no problem with some other admin dealing with the report (see last link).

The edit warring behavior continued. I filed a second report, [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters reported by User:Noroton Second Report (Result: )|here]]  (most recent diff [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FEdit_warring&diff=314219502&oldid=314219282]) showing six reverts in a 24 hour period. Result: While other reports on the page have been handled, mine hasn't. It's been 24 hours since the second report was filed. [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FEdit_warring&diff=314118861&oldid=314116078]

The reverting editor claims that he isn't violating 3RR. He can't seem to explain how that could be. His only two comments: [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FEdit_warring&diff=313977691&oldid=313977110] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FEdit_warring&diff=314200918&oldid=314183061]

Well, shouldn't it be easy to explain to me why I'm wrong? 

Shouldn't 3RR reports be dealt with in a timely manner?

If I'm doing something wrong here, just tell me. If I've misunderstood 3RR policy, please just explain how. [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 17:46, 16 September 2009 (UTC)<small>corrected my count of reverts above -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 17:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)</small>
:AN would be better for this.--[[User:Patton123|Patton123]] ([[User talk:Patton123|talk]]) 18:01, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::No, the clock has been ticking for 27 hours on the second 3RR report while the edit warring continued. Why is it that no one can explain why action shouldn't be taken? I'm also asking for someone to go over to 3RR/N and handle the report. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 18:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::"Why is it that no one can explain why action shouldn't be taken?" - I read the explanation at the report.  I understand that you and the admin don't agree, but the explanation is there: No action should be taken because there is not a revert problem shown.  There is a spirited disagreement about what and how much should be included about a current news event.  This is a Good Thing, not a Bad Thing.[[User:Sinneed| - Sinneed]] ([[User talk:Sinneed|talk]]) 18:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::The explanation in the closure of the first report: ''there must be four or more reverts within a 24 hour period for the 3-Revert Rule to apply; the links you have provided do not meet these criteria. No obvious vio, further seems to have subsided for now. Re-report if needed in future.'' My question is '''Why''' no obvious vio when the four reverts are there within a period of a few hours, and ''how'' do they not meet the criteria? Calling something an explanation doesn't make it an explanation. How am I supposed to understand when it's not worthwhile to report at 3RR/N? Are you referring to the discussion on the admin talk page? It leaves me with the same question, but now that I reread that discussion, perhaps the admin was saying it was a judgment call. Does that sound right? But in that case, the admin was saying, ''let's see how it goes'', well, how it went was six more reverts, therefore the second report -- which has sat around for 27+ hours. Not a Good Thing At All. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 19:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::The first "revert" you included isn't a revert. A [[WP:REVERT|revert]] is when you undo another editor's edit. The text that you claim that LuLu reverted doesn't match the material that LuLu removed.

:::::The second revert does seem to be clearly a revert, as an IP removed the text about "conservative activists" that LuLu had previously added, and LuLu reinserted it.

:::::The third revert is also clearly a revert, as LuLu reverted the Brooklyn DA investigation material you had added.

:::::The fourth "revert" is questionable. LuLu removed one source, with the claim that only one source is needed (a very bad explanation for removal in my opinion). I wouldn't call it a revert, exactly, because LuLu didn't remove your entire contribution or even a substantial portion of it, only one source. I'd call that a bad edit but not a revert.

:::::Keep in mind that not every removal of content is a revert. In fact, if you have two editors adding material to an article back and forth, and removing portions of each others' contributions, that's not even technically an edit war because they aren't fighting over what is and isn't in the article, they're only modifying the contributions made. The administrator made a good call, a couple of reverts doesn't mean 3RR was breached. -- '''[[User:Atama|<span style="color:#06F">At</span><span style="color:#03B">am</span><span style="color:#006">a</span>]]'''[[User talk:Atama|<span style="color:#000">頭</span>]] 23:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Its been awhile since I've read 3RR so I thought I'd head on over and do that. Some key points, ''Note that any administrator may still act whenever they believe a user's behavior constitutes edit warring, and any user may report warring behaviors rather than retaliate, whether or not 3RR has been breached.''. Many people often talk abou the spirit of 3RR and not the letter of the law. There is no right for anyone to get 3 reverts on every article each day. ''A revert is any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part.'' There is no requirement that an editor undo an edit with the undo function. Even removing a sentence from an added paragraph is undoing the actions of another editor.--[[User:Crossmr|Crossmr]] ([[User talk:Crossmr|talk]]) 00:42, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::Atama, I don't think I ever filed a 3RR report before a couple of days ago, so I looked into it as much as I could. I saw at the top of the [[3RR/N]] page, in "Definition of the three revert rule" as ''A revert is any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, '''in whole or in part''''' (boldface added). I need to follow that, don't I? That makes it look as if every removal of content is, in fact, a revert, but every revert in my reports can be traced back to something added within the previous few days, mostly same day, I think. All these reverts were part of the same general fight.
::::::You're looking at the list of reverts 1-4 in my first report (I also added several more). The first one is a bit confusing, partly because (I think) the material removed was added at various times, but the last sentence of text that was removed was this: ''After the videos emerged, the [[United States Census Bureau|Census Bureau]] cut ties with ACORN, which had been tapped to participate in the [[2010 United States Census|2010 census]].'' The footnote for that went to a Fox News report dated and accessed on 9-11-2009, so we know the material was added within a few days. The page history shows it was then removed and restored a number of times since, including LuLu's edit on September 14. Edit warring, right? And a "bright line" 3RR vio if it is one of at least four by that editor within 24 hours. As to the fourth revert, I noted that LuLu reverted the word "immediately" as well as a footnote. Again, if partial reverts are counted as reverts, then this is one. I think it's certainly a valid objection to say that this is technical, but it's equally valid that the complaint is within the spirit of [[WP:3RR]] that we don't want edit warring, we want consensus through discussion, and you don't even have to get past the 3RR tripwire to get blocked, which the noticeboard page and the 3RR page make very clear. (In this case, blocking would have delivered an effective message both to that editor and to the other edit warriors on that page -- a stern warning on the editor's talk page would have done just about the same thing.) If an admin didn't want to act on Reverts 1-4, another option was to see the violation in Reverts 5-8 in that report. The second report has eight reverts. (Again, my purpose here is not to complain or forum-shop. My purpose is to understand whether or not I made some clear mistake and to get some admin to act on the report. Or do I need to take this to ArbCom now?) -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 02:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

''Shouldn't 3RR reports be dealt with in a timely manner?'' &mdash; See [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#WP:AN3]].  One of the administrators who helped out a lot at that noticeboard is now no longer able to do so. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 02:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:I see. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 02:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::Yea, but what happened to a frequent admin to AN3 isn't really your problem is it? (Though it does stink what happened to him). Anyhow, I agree reports need handled quickly if possible. I left the 2nd un-attended report to be done by someone other than myself purposefully. The reason I didn't action it first time around is for the reasoning I gave, and like noted by Atama, I don't believe there truly were 4+ reverts in 24 hours. That said, the user could be done for edit warring anyhow, but as [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nja247&diff=314168862&oldid=314167658 noted] on my talk page I think some discussion could have resolved the issue rather than blocks. I hoped a review by another admin would have resolved the issue to your satisfaction by now, and since it hasn't you're owed an apology. [[User:Nja247|<em style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;color:#6600CC">'''''Nja'''''</em>]]<sup>[[User talk:Nja247|<em style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;color:#63D1F4">'''''247'''''</em>]]</sup> 06:59, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Nja, I'm coming to the conclusion from all this that while Wikipedia has a written 3RR policy that editors can refer to, there is an unwritten 3RR policy that defines the three-revert rule and edit warring  in a more restrictive way. If that's the case, it's a shame because it traps editors like me into wasting time making complaints that are never going to result in more than a dismissal. Either enforcement or rule language need to be changed. I'm still confused by the explanation that you don't see a violation here, because you're still not giving reasons why evidence that plainly fits the language of the rule is not a violation. This, and what you've said about the best way to resolve the situation, leads me to think that you're mixing up interpretation of the rule with discretion in enforcement. I think what you should be saying is something like, "While I see a violation of 3RR, I think it's closer to being a technical violation, and I think the best solution in this case is not a block, but ..." Do you realize that as an admin you have the authority to do that? And that's often the wisest course. I wouldn't have objected to that because I think it would have gotten the attention not only of the editor I complained against but of other editors who were edit warring on the page. But calling it out, on the record, as edit warring is what gets the attention. When you say there's no violation, the problem continues. (Actually, the editor I complained about seems to be laying low. For now.)  

:::Anyone who looks at the history and reversions of the [[ACORN]] page will see that, starting September 9, the edit warring went into high gear when the lurid story started breaking, and it's continued to the present as new revelations have come out. (I'm not going to lengthen this discussion and waste any more of my time by showing diffs, it's obvious to anyone who goes through the history page: edit summaries identify good factual information as POV and revert it; essential details on one side are left out or the language is exaggerated in obvious ways -- really, this is a classic specimen for the Wikipedia Museum of POV Pushing.) The POV pushing has been blatant and extreme on both sides. It's to be expected that certain people will do this. The problem is that to deal with POV pushing and related bad behavior, it takes exhaustive efforts to complain at 3RR/N, AN/I and elsewhere, and I assume it takes exhaustive efforts on the part of admins to look into problems, issue warnings and blocks, and then see what happens. The result is that WP:CIV is often a dead letter, as is WP:NPOV and now, I find, WP:3RR.

:::It's difficult to deal with this because, like language about democracy and civil rights in the Soviet Constitution, the aspirational wording is there in our policies and guidelines but no effective system exists either to promote good behavior or deal with bad behavior when large numbers of editors engage in POV fights. The lack of admins at 3RR/N is a symptom. So is the lack of cojones (or time? or patience?) among the admins scrolling past this discussion. Nobody really wants to clean out the Augean Stables of a massive POV fight with the toothbrush Wikipedia provides. I'm not dealing with it either. I spent way too many hours looking up diffs to no effect, and I'm walking away. I never even had time to start discussions on the article's talk page. The article sucks (although it has improved somewhat), the bad behavior has barely changed and Wikipedia looks like shit to anyone who followed the story and then came to Wikipedia to learn more (look at the traffic stats [http://stats.grok.se/en/200909/Association%20of%20Community%20Organizations%20for%20Reform%20Now]). The real solution would be to create policies and guidelines that promote calm, reasonable discussion, especially in controversial articles with a lot of edits, and then have adequate enforcement. It would mean somewhat more formal discussion procedures, probably some kind of moderator to enforce violations immediately, but some kind of effective, quick enforcement. But Wikipedia has no stomach for creating new rules (and our consensus policy makes passing new policies and guidelines almost impossible), so the problems continue and we continue looking as bad as we do. How dysfunctional we are, and this case shows it. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 13:51, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::::''Wikipedia looks like shit to anyone who followed the story and then came to Wikipedia to learn more'' Anybody coming to this site for ANY non biased material regarding politics/religion/conspiracy/ect needs their head examined. Wiki is excellent for other articles, but militants on both sides have pretty much taken over here. I know, I know, the cabal is that way. --[[Special:Contributions/98.182.55.163|98.182.55.163]] ([[User talk:98.182.55.163|talk]]) 15:32, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::I hope that I didn't give the impression that I condone LuLu's actions. Removing sourced material without a good explanation is certainly not good, LuLu did seem to be edit-warring, and if I were an administrator (and I'm certainly not) I would at the very least have left a stern comment on their talk page, if not a short block. I've had bad experiences with AN3 reports also, my first report there ended with the person I reported getting a light warning, and a good admin getting blocked for 24 hours after he'd reverted too many anonymous editors following the removal of semi-protection that he himself had done at that page! I was only trying to explain how the administrator at AN3 would have seen it. I still don't think 3RR was breached but 3RR is a "bright line" and you don't have to go past it to be edit-warring. -- '''[[User:Atama|<span style="color:#06F">At</span><span style="color:#03B">am</span><span style="color:#006">a</span>]]'''[[User talk:Atama|<span style="color:#000">頭</span>]] 19:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== ''zombietime'' ==

Could an uninvolved admin take a look at {{article|zombietime}}, please? This is an article about a website run by a pseudonymous person who publishes images from political demonstrations that he regards as inappropriate in some way, often because he think they're antisemitic. [[User:DreamGuy|DreamGuy]] has started adding that it is a "far right" website, without a source (and there almost certainly is no source that says this), and when reverted, he restores it. He has added it five times since September 13. [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Zombietime&diff=313578332&oldid=313577288] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Zombietime&diff=313683344&oldid=313635315] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Zombietime&diff=314002573&oldid=313735446] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Zombietime&diff=314389334&oldid=314249726] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Zombietime&diff=314394322&oldid=314390234] It's a clear BLP violation, even though we don't know the name of the person behind the site. [[User:SlimVirgin|<span style="color:green;">SlimVirgin</span>]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<span style="color:red;">talk|</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SlimVirgin|<span style="color:pink;">contribs</span>]]</sup></small> 19:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:Warned user. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 19:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:Also started a discussion section on the talk page, see [[Talk:Zombietime#.22Far_right.22]]. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 19:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Part of the problem here is that there is a serious lack of reliable sources for the website in general (hence the reason it's up for deletion), and the only ones that do mention it are highly partisan. The main problem with the article beyond the notability issue is POV pushing, in that editors are seemingly specifically choosing to have the article focus solely on "zombie"'s accusations that his targets as "far left" "unAmerican" etc. based solely upon him and his supporters but not giving any sort of label to himself. And the fact that the site is far right is self-evident from the targets, claims made, and that the only sources supporting the site are all far right themselves. If the claim in seriously that facts need to be cited or else removed, then the article itself as a whole needs to go away. What we have instead of cherry picking what gets covered and what doesn't in order to slant this person as some sort of moderate, and the BLP complaint is just wikilawyering to focus on that one point and ignore the other problems. [[User:DreamGuy|DreamGuy]] ([[User talk:DreamGuy|talk]]) 20:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:I think the main point here is [[WP:BURDEN]]. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 20:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:Hopefully this article will be deleted and this whole discussion will then be moot. [[User talk:Crotalus horridus|<b style="color:#1111AA; font-family:monospace, monospace;">***&nbsp;Crotalus&nbsp;***</b>]] 20:40, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
"''It's a clear BLP violation, even though we don't know the name of the person behind the site''" eh? Is this true?  I was under the impression that a pseudonym could not be slandered nor libled.  I'm not asking to start a huge legal discussion, but isn't this in policy somehwere?  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:NotAnIP83:149:66:11|NotAnIP83:149:66:11]] ([[User talk:NotAnIP83:149:66:11|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/NotAnIP83:149:66:11|contribs]]) 21:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:I've never been aware of that in [[WP:BLP]]. True, a real life name/info associated with an allegation is more problematic, but it could still be a BLP vio to make a questionable/unsourced claim against a living person, even if we don't know their real name. [[User:JamieS93|<font style="color:#4682b4">'''Jamie'''</font>]]'''[[User talk:JamieS93|<font style="color:#50C878">S93</font>]]''' 21:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:BLP's not just a legal issue, NAIP, but an ethical one too. The point is that anything challenged in any article, but particularly anything contentious, and even more so in articles about living persons, needs a reliable source. [[User:SlimVirgin|<span style="color:green;">SlimVirgin</span>]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<span style="color:red;">talk|</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SlimVirgin|<span style="color:pink;">contribs</span>]]</sup></small> 22:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
::Well, yeah, material definitely needs to be verifiable in a reliable source. But this is not a BLP issue. If BLP extends to non-identifiable Internet pseudonyms, then it's a BLP violation every time someone says something negative about me here on Wikipedia without citing a published, independent, reliable source to back them up. I can assure you I've been called worse than "far right". '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 22:40, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
It's not a BLP issue to argue that a site is or isn't far right.  At all.  Either way there is an open AfD on the article. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 22:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:'''Comment:''' Again, leaving out the BLP discussion for a moment, the issue is that when one Wikipedian wishes to insert unsourced material - the matter is clearly one of [[WP:BURDEN]]. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 00:45, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::Or WP:EW or whatever.  The fact that this ''obviously right wing site'' hasn't attracted enough coverage from reliable sources to source the claim that it is right wing should be ringing alarm bells in peoples' heads though. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 01:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

See also [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#"far-left" and "far-right" at English Defence League and elsewhere]]. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 02:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[User:Philbox17]] ==

Would you please block [[User:Philbox17]] account, he keeps deleting cited information from the article [[Réseau de Résistance du Québécois]].  This person is practicing article ownership, which can be confirmed by reading the editors user talk page [[User talk:Philbox17]] and the lengthy problems this editor has had with this article.  I believe this editor is a member of [[Réseau de Résistance du Québécois]] and lacks a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|NPOV]].  Thank you. [[Special:Contributions/76.64.152.111|76.64.152.111]] ([[User talk:76.64.152.111|talk]]) 20:53, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:Before any admins act on this request, could you outline any attempts you or others have made at [[WP:DR|dispute resolution]]?  This appears to be a content dispute, of which there are two sides.  Also, it is VERY important to note that the existance of a source is not a sufficient condition to claim that a passage in an article ''should'' be in the article.  It certainly is important, but there can be many reasons for removing a sourced statement.  Read [[WP:UNDUE]] for just a few.  Have you attempted to start a dialogue with the user in question.  Not a random template on his talk page, but an actual dialogue where you discuss his motivations for removing the passage, and where you explain your reasoning for keeping it?  There are many many many ways to resolve conflicts at Wikipedia, and demanding the blocking of another user should be a last resort, ''even if'' the other user is "wrong".  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#000099;">Jayron</span>]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009900;">32</span>]]''''' 20:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:: I have notified Philbox17 of this thread ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 21:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:::I erase some part because wikipedia must report neutral fact, not journalists personal opinion of the fact. Those journalists are clearly against the RRQ and are not neutral. Also this anonymus [[Special:Contributions/76.64.152.111|76.64.152.111]] have no credibility. On the RRQ article, he always write RQQ. I source evrything I write and he also erase it. I don't see why I sould be notice or block, I didn't erase everything.[[User:Philbox17|Philbox17]]  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 22:01, 16 September 2009 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
<-Give the IP fella a gold star, Checkuser confirms that {{user|Philbox17}} and {{user|Patriote17}} are blatant abusive socks. I've blocked them both. --[[User:Versageek|<span style="color:midnightblue">Versa</span>]][[User_talk:Versageek|<span style="color:darkred">geek</span>]] 22:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
:In fact, you indef'ed them both.  Unless they showed up as socks of some other master, how about at least putting an appeal template on one of the talk pages? [[User:Looie496|Looie496]] ([[User talk:Looie496|talk]]) 02:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Serious issues rendering pages which begin with some templates ==

{{resolved|Let's try to keep this all in [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Vanishing_articles.3F|one place]]. –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 00:15, 17 September 2009 (UTC)}}
Is anyone else noticing that many articles are suddenly "invisible," but if you go view the script, they're there?  Does this have something to do with the software update?
Are these invisible for other people (found via "random", found may more before I started noting them):
:[[Grzeszów]]
:[[John Warner]] (half missing)
:[[Storm Shadow]]
About 1 in 20 random articles are displaying this. Happening to other people?
::''[[User:Peace and Passion|Peace and Passion]]'' <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml">&#9774;</span>&nbsp; ''([[User talk:Peace and Passion|"I'm listening...."]])'' 00:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

::::I just checked IE; it's only occurring in my Firefox.  IE is fine.  Maybe just my browser is hemorrhaging.  Anyone else having problems?
::::::''[[User:Peace and Passion|Peace and Passion]]'' <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml">&#9774;</span>&nbsp; ''([[User talk:Peace and Passion|"I'm listening...."]])'' 00:09, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:[[User:Brion VIBBER|brion]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AVillage_pump_%28technical%29&diff=314446014&oldid=314445398 mentioned] [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Vanishing_articles.3F|over]] at [[WP:VPT|wp:vpt]] that they're looking into it.  '''[[user:j|user:<small>J</small>]]''' <small>aka justen</small> ([[user talk:j|talk]]) 00:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Busted on IE. All the cricket infoboxes don't show up anymore, including on the TFA [[Harbhajan Singh]] '''[[User:YellowMonkey|<span style="color:GoldenRod;">YellowMonkey</span>]]''' (''[[User_talk:YellowMonkey|<span style="color:#FA8605;">bananabucket!</span>]]'') 00:15, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:I'd like to point out that [[Storm Shadow (G.I. Joe)|Storm Shadow]] is a ninja, so don't be alarmed if you can't see him. -- '''[[User:Atama|<span style="color:#06F">At</span><span style="color:#03B">am</span><span style="color:#006">a</span>]]'''[[User talk:Atama|<span style="color:#000">頭</span>]] 05:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::Indeed, if the subject is a ninja be alarmed. Period. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 12:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

::: [[File:Kawasaki ZX-RR 2007TMS.jpg|thumb|75px|left|I hear a Ninja!]] I may not be able to ''see'' the ninja, but I bet I can ''hear'' it ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 12:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_QLUJHaB6U This news report] goes some way towards explaining some of the problems we're having with Ninjas. ↪<span style="font-family:georgia;">'''[[User talk:Redvers|REDVERS]]''' <small><small><sup><u>[[User:Redvers/Say no to Commons|The internet is for porn]]</u></sup></small></small></span> 13:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[User:156.110.35.114]] ==

{{userlinks|156.110.35.114}}

I believe the above user has moved from blatant vandalism to more subtle vandalism, but I'm admittedly too stupid to tell the difference (i.e., I know nothing about university history). Can someone look at this user's contributions? Thanks. [[User:Magog the Ogre|Magog the Ogre]] ([[User talk:Magog the Ogre|talk]]) 01:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:Clear vandalism.  I've filed an AIV report and I'm rolling back the bad edits. [[User:Looie496|Looie496]] ([[User talk:Looie496|talk]]) 02:15, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Legal threat? ==

<s>{{resolved|User blocked. –[[User:Turian|'''<span style="color:#000000;">túrian</span>''']][[User_talk:Turian|''<span style="color:green;"><sup>patois</sup></span>'']] 03:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)}}</s>

{{userlinks|68.52.42.38}} has stated on their talk page that they are a university and will take action if "harassment" continues. Not only is it ridiculous, but some consensus needs to be formed on whether the IP user banenrs can be removed, because this has gotten beyond unnecessary. There have been multiple incidents within the past week over this. Thanks. –[[User:Turian|'''<span style="color:#000000;">túrian</span>''']][[User_talk:Turian|''<span style="color:green;"><sup>patois</sup></span>'']] 01:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

*Eh.  As legal threats go, its pretty tame.  I would recommend you direct them to the [http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home home office] and let them raise any concerns they have there.  They want to talk to the Big Bosses, let them... --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#000099;">Jayron</span>]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009900;">32</span>]]''''' 01:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
*I'm sure that the people at [[Indiana University]] will be surprised to find that someone with a dynamically assigned IP address on [[Comcast Cable]] is [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:68.52.42.38&diff=next&oldid=314458635 claiming to be IU], when IU's assigned IP address range is in fact, and has been for at least the past six years according to [[ARIN]], 129.79.0.0/16. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 03:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
**<small>Strictly speaking, that's IUB.  Some other address ranges for IU's [[Autonomous system (Internet)|AS]] can be found listed [http://robtex.com/as/as87.html#bgp here], by the way.  [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 03:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)</small>

User was unblocked by an admin after an appeal of sorts. Then the admin discovered he had lied about his alleged connection to Indiana U. However, he had also retracted the threat. So now he's under close watch. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]] 14:51, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:User was re-blocked, for 12 hours this time, for continuing to make snippy/intimidating remarks. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]] 00:52, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[User:JNW]] autoblock ==

Intervention requested from someone who knows about such things. See [[User_talk:JNW#Autoblock]]. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<span style="color:#880088;">Ty</span>]]''''' 02:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:Should be fixed now. [[User:J.delanoy|<span style="color:green;">J'''.'''delanoy</span>]][[User Talk:J.delanoy|<sup style="color:red;">gabs</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/J.delanoy|<sub style="color:blue;">adds</sub>]] 02:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:Under what name was he blocked.  [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3AJNW I can't see it]. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 02:07, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::<code>00:40, September 17, 2009, Willking1979 (talk | contribs | block) blocked #1572167 (expires on September 17, 2009 at 22:58, account creation blocked) (Autoblocked because your IP address was recently used by "Nuzbach". The reason given for Nuzbach's block is: "Vandalism-only account".) (unblock)</code>
::For what it's worth, I could not find that using the normal means either, so I don't know what's going on. [[User:J.delanoy|<span style="color:green;">J'''.'''delanoy</span>]][[User Talk:J.delanoy|<sup style="color:red;">gabs</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/J.delanoy|<sub style="color:blue;">adds</sub>]] 02:10, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::It didn't come up on http://toolserver.org/~eagle/autoblockfinder.php. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<span style="color:#880088;">Ty</span>]]''''' 02:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Yeah cause the autoblock was on another user. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 02:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Please check your timeframe against [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive242#Autoblocks are acting screwy]]. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] ([[User talk:Uncle G|talk]]) 02:59, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Questionable bulk edits by User:Miami33139 ==

* {{Userlinks|Miami33139}}
I made an initial report on AN/I on Sep 15th that can be found in the archive [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive563#Wikistalking and problematic edits by User:Miami33139|here]].<br />I realized today that the ''minor'' edits [[User:Miami33139|Miami33139]] has been making [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Miami33139] are removals of [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald]]'s edits. I really don't feel it is appropriate for Miami33139 to be systematically removing Ed Fitzgerald's edits, particularly after all the disagreement and heated discussion between Miami33139 and Ed Fitzgerald, some of which seems to have led to Ed's "retirement". Some past "discussion" between Miami33139 and Ed Fitzgerald can be found [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Miami33139&oldid=314370584#Hello... here].<br />--[[User:Tothwolf|Tothwolf]] ([[User talk:Tothwolf|talk]]) 02:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:'''Procedural Note''' I have informed Miami33139 of this thread, on their talk page. [[User:Basket of Puppies|<span style="color:brown; font-size:small; font-family:Constantia;">'''Basket of Puppies'''</span>]] 03:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:I would be interested in Miami33139's response. A brief review of 3 articles indicate that Ed Fitzgerald made edits on a large scale - including layout- in 2008, and they have been edited since without any seeming problem that Miami33139 is now "correcting". My initial reaction is that EF's changes has consensus, and that M33139 is taking advantage of EF's absence to ''"win"'' a content dispute. If Miami33139 can point to a consensus, or a consensus of a reading of a style guide, then I will happily acknowledge my misreading of the situation. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 12:55, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::I'm not sure Miami33139 will respond as they appear to have stopped editing again. Some of Ed's edits certainly did fix longstanding problems (i.e. [[WP:FIXBUNCH]]) although the whitespace issue between the last section and navboxes was finally fixed in Common.css [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.css&diff=prev&oldid=286203569] so it might now be worth considering putting a bot to work on fixing any articles that have a hard <nowiki><p></nowiki> between the last section and any navboxes. (Two empty lines or two empty lines with a HTML comment between them in mediawiki markup parses to a hard <nowiki><p></nowiki> in HTML, which is what Ed appears to have been doing.) --[[User:Tothwolf|Tothwolf]] ([[User talk:Tothwolf|talk]]) 14:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

== Edits at [[Lucknow]] by 67.148.61.99 ==

* {{Userlinks|67.148.61.99}}
This user is persistent in removing data/references and doing personal attack and vandalising the article [[Lucknow]]. On seeing track record of this IP it seems that this is the pattern which it follows across Wikipedia. Please help to contain this IP. Thanks. --<b><span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:green">[[User:Faizhaider|Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider Rizvi]]</span></b><sup><i>[[User_talk:Faizhaider|talk!]]</i></sup> 08:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:I've left [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:67.148.61.99&diff=314570359&oldid=314484498 this comment] on 67.148.61.99's talk page; is there some reason we're not [[WP:AGF|assuming good faith]] with an apparent newcomer? – <small>[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#28f">Luna Santin</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</small> 18:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Arabmaniac/[[Gaza War]] ==

*{{userlinks|Arabmaniac}}
This use has been editing in a disruptive manner at [[Gaza War]]. The editor is edit waring, has an account for 1 sole purpose, has a user name that another editor took offense to, and doesn't seek consensus. Instead of posting on several different ones thought this would be best. Please check out the revision history and warnings at the user's talk page. Edit summary of reverters and talk page discusison might be interesting but isn't needed to see what is going on. Thanks.[[User:Cptnono|Cptnono]] ([[User talk:Cptnono|talk]]) 10:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC) <small>Moved from [[WP:AN]]. ↪<span style="font-family:georgia;">'''[[User talk:Redvers|REDVERS]]''' <small><small><sup><u>[[User:Redvers/Say no to Commons|The internet is for porn]]</u></sup></small></small></span> 10:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)</small>

:This user is a new user. I don't think he's familiar with our editing policies and practices. I do think his user name needs to be changed and filed a report about that. I don't think he needs to be blocked at this juncture. I do think it would be useful if someone not involved in editing [[Gaza War]] could take some time to explain what is problematic about his editing there. [[User:Tiamut|<b><span style="color:#B93B8F;">T</span><span style="color:#800000;">i</span><span style="color:#B93B8F;">a</span><span style="color:#800000;">m</span><span style="color:#B93B8F;">u</span><span style="color:#800000;">t</span></b>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Tiamut|talk]]</sup> 10:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

::I left an additional warning about possible [[WP:ARBPIA]] sanctions. He's stopped now, but if editing continues in this vein, report to [[WP:AN3]] or [[WP:AE]] as needed. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 10:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Thanks. [[User:Tiamut|<b><span style="color:#B93B8F;">T</span><span style="color:#800000;">i</span><span style="color:#B93B8F;">a</span><span style="color:#800000;">m</span><span style="color:#B93B8F;">u</span><span style="color:#800000;">t</span></b>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Tiamut|talk]]</sup> 11:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

'''Procedural Note''' I left a note on the user's talk page informing them of this discussion. [[User:Basket of Puppies|<span style="color:brown; font-size:small; font-family:Constantia;">'''Basket of Puppies'''</span>]] 14:09, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[User:Huanglow]] incivility, challenges to a fight, etc on [[Talk:Tien Shan Pai]] ==

{{user|Junzi}} and {{user|Huanglow}}, among others, are involved in a rather long-lasting discussion on the talk page of [[Tien Shan Pai]] article, about issues surrounding martial arts lineages that I don't claim to fully understand.  Huanglow has only ever edited the attached talk page.  S/he has been acting in fashions that severely strain the civility policy.  This includes, since Tuesday:
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tien_Shan_Pai&diff=next&oldid=314121768 presuming] that a participant - not sure whom - is one of the feuding martial arts masters and suggesting that he return to Taiwan,<s>with what could be seen as implications that he's a Nazi.  </s>
:Struck per [[Talk:Tien_Shan_Pai#Wikipedia:Civility]] -- [[User:Pakaran|Pak]][[User talk:Pakaran|aran]] 15:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tien_Shan_Pai&diff=next&oldid=314179802 Saying] that someone's "teacher sucks big time".
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tien_Shan_Pai&diff=next&oldid=314204153 This comment], calling Junzi a "cult member" among other things.  
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tien_Shan_Pai&diff=next&oldid=314369846 Challenging] various participants to a "cage match" to resolve the lineage issue debated in the article.  
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tien_Shan_Pai&diff=next&oldid=314407179 Name] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tien_Shan_Pai&diff=next&oldid=314424532 calling]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tien_Shan_Pai&diff=next&oldid=314425325 Page move] without justification to further eir side of the content dispute.  

Would anyone be opposed to, at least, a cooldown block for Huanglow if the behavior continues?  -- [[User:Pakaran|Pak]][[User talk:Pakaran|aran]] 13:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:Yes. We don't do [[WP:COOLDOWN|COOLDOWN]] blocks. --[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 13:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::But we do do blocks of grossly uncivil users for personal attacks, which I'm considering...and really, it wouldn't be a cooldown so much as a 'goodbye forever'.  Any objections? [[User:Syrthiss|Syrthiss]] ([[User talk:Syrthiss|talk]]) 13:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::At this point, yes. I just gave him his first warning, for the vandalistic page move. If he doesn't respond to escalating warnings going forward, then block him. I suspect this won't take long, but I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised. --[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 13:55, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::You should probably warn him about the gross incivility as well, so he knows there are multiple uninvolved people with multiple issues. Don't want to go straight to level 4, though... --[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 13:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Did that just prior to your note here, so we're on the same page. [[User:Syrthiss|Syrthiss]] ([[User talk:Syrthiss|talk]]) 13:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::Touche.  Alright, I just wanted to get more eyeballs on the page.  I did notice the lack of warnings, and if the behavior improves, then great.  If not, it's easy enough to resolve.  -- [[User:Pakaran|Pak]][[User talk:Pakaran|aran]] 14:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

As [[User:Huanglow]] is new, and has never been welcomed, I used my handy dandy "welcomecivil" template for people whose early work has been somewhat uncivil. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 14:32, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

===Usernames===

I should probably add, without accusing anyone of anything, that I am somewhat concerned about the pattern of usernames used in editing this article.  At least three names appear to be possible less than positive references, or designed on a similar theme to each other.  Consider that one of the disputing masters is Chien-Liang Huang, and his webpage lists a Michael Huang [http://www.tienshanpai.org/organization/index.htm].  I'm thinking about the usernames  - namely, {{user|Huanglow}}, {{user|Quailhollow}} and {{user|Mikehaung}} (which has not edited since June).  I am certainly not accusing the first two users I name of being a bad and good hand, respectively - there's no evidence.  That said, after being a sysop for 6 years, one gets feelings.  -- [[User:Pakaran|Pak]][[User talk:Pakaran|aran]] 20:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:Also, all three of those users have only edited that talk page.  -- [[User:Pakaran|Pak]][[User talk:Pakaran|aran]] 21:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Communist Croat gang ==

{{resolved|The originator of this thread is blocked as a long-time banned POV-pushing user. [[User:Spellcast|Spellcast]] ([[User talk:Spellcast|talk]]) 19:07, 17 September 2009 (UTC)}}
There are real communist vandals organized in gang who attack every edits sentences pertinent communist dictator Broz Tito's crimes. These vandals disrupt several articles and always start edit wars and always request check user control for remove many sapient editors as false sock but some admins are confused and ban editor who are not sock. Maybe these vandals are socks too. They are [[User:DIREKTOR]], [[User:PRODUCER]], [[User:AlasdairGreen27]] and [[User:Kubura]]. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Miranovic|Miranovic]] ([[User talk:Miranovic|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Miranovic|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:Please remember to comment on content, [[WP:NPA|not contributors]]. Thank you. --[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 15:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::But this board is for reporting editor's actions, not saying I agree with the start of this thread however or how it is worded.--[[Special:Contributions/98.182.55.163|98.182.55.163]] ([[User talk:98.182.55.163|talk]]) 15:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::advice: work in progress no personal attack because I am editing important links for evidence. I adviced two editors and I can continue tomorrow but admin SarekOfVulcan why helps POV DIREKTOR against me? Now I have suspect of bad faith: why SarekOfVulcan removes my sourced contributions?
::::Possibly because your contribution '''wasn't''' sourced? http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Foibe_killings&diff=prev&oldid=314541673 You still haven't said what the problem was -- all you've told us is that there's a [[WP:CABAL|CABAL]]. If you have a specific issue, we've be happy to look into it. "He was a bad person at some point in the past, and it's relevant now because I say so" isn't a specific issue. --[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 16:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC) 
DIREKTOR was great star in [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Dalmatia#DIREKTOR restricted|this multiple edit war and was restricted]]. You can read [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Dalmatia]] and can see how DIREKTOR is continual POV warrior against last restriction and 3 blocks for edit wars against many editors who are Italians, Serbs, Croats etc.--[[User:Miranovic|Miranovic]] ([[User talk:Miranovic|talk]]) 15:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::[[User:DIREKTOR]] has recently proposed renaming [[Communist Romania]] with arguments that clearly show intention to white-wash Communist rule in Eastern Europe. However, in that case, he is successfully opposed by all users who are not communists (which is the vast majority). Advice: do it calmly, ask for third opinion or/and ask for mediation. If morally the truth is on your side, exploit that in an intelligent way. Remember, if you have anything against communists, the most you can do in WP is prevent their propaganda from spreading around. But you cannot do anything about them as people, even if they are personally guilty, have committed crimes and you can prove this. WP welcomes everybody, fascists and communists alike, monarchists and republicans, liberals and conservatives, socialists and liberal-democrats, honest people and criminals. Comment on content, not on users. It is practically useless to comment on users. You can comment on user's actions, but you have to prove those brake WP rules. Good luck! [[User:Dc76|Dc76]]\<sup>[[User_talk:Dc76|talk]]</sup> 17:10, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:::I thing this gross assumption of bad faith by user Dc76 should not be ignored by admins. His above message constitutes a very grave personal attack not against one, but three editors. Also he is clearly showing the way he understands to edit WP: to promote certain political ideologies and to fight others. This can be seen in the linked article, where accusing someone of "intention to white-wash Communist rule" is used as an excuse to ignore and to conscientiously break basic Wikipedia naming guidelines.[[User:Anonimu|Anonimu]] ([[User talk:Anonimu|talk]]) 17:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::: If you have something in particular that someone on editing restriction has done to violate said restriction, [[WP:AE]] is that way. -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 17:12, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::: Oh LoLz! xD Its now officially a pattern: if a user accuses me of being a "communist" - he's a sock of some guy I reported. For the record, my restriction is long over, and as it turned out, the other side of the dispute got banned for edit-warring, socking, and POV-pushing. Which, imho, pretty much shows I was dealing with fanatics. :P

::::::: Dc76, '''1''') I have '''not''' proposed the move, nor did I have any intention to propose it when a Romanian user did. '''2''') If I'm a "Communist", why did I argue ''for'' the move from "'''Communist''' Romania" to "Socialist Republic of Romania"? '''3''') Such an article renaming is "whitewashing" only in'' extremely'' biased eyes, and your post here clearly shows that your vote therein was politically motivated - unlike mine. You were defending "'''The Moral Truth{{smallsup|TM}}'''" from "Communist propaganda", weren't you? :)

::::::: Disclaimer: for the final time - I am fully aware Wikipedia welcomes communists, fascists, etc. and I am not saying this because I believe otherwise, BUT, '''I am NOT a communist'''. Communism is, in my view, a deeply '''flawed''' and '''failed''' ideology not in touch with Human nature. It is also oppressive and extremely rigid. These guys are just desperately trying to get me banned because they got indef blocked.  --<span style="font-family:Eras Bold ITC;">[[User:DIREKTOR|<span style="color:DimGray;">DIREKTOR</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:DIREKTOR|<span style="color:Gray;">TALK</span>]])</sup></span> 20:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== User:InternetHero and Telescope ==

For the last several months, {{Userlinks|InternetHero}} has been inserting the same text into [[Telescope]] against consensus about once a month: [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Telescope&diff=310582729&oldid=310229093], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Telescope&diff=312858681&oldid=312847822], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Telescope&diff=310582729&oldid=310229093], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Telescope&diff=298230731&oldid=295538154], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Telescope&diff=308743537&oldid=301388752], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Telescope&diff=314464184&oldid=312863528] (with only a week since the last one). This is the same material that led to a [[Talk:Telescope/Archive 1#Discussion from history of the telescope|Third opinion request]] (more users have since become involved), a [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive77#User:InternetHero reported by User:DigitalC .28Result: Page protected.2C user blocked.29|block]], and a [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/InternetHero|Request for comment]] last year; that RfC discussion petered out when IH stopped editing for a few weeks. InternetHero argued against the current consensus, and is now just editing to their preferred version. [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:InternetHero&diff=313141894&oldid=289963970 diff of warning to usertalk]; [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:InternetHero&diff=prev&oldid=314546378 diff of notification of this discussion]. - [[User talk:2over0|2/0]] <small>([[Special:Contributions/2over0|cont.]])</small> 15:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:'''Procedural Note''' I have notified the user of this thread, on their talk page. [[User:Basket of Puppies|<span style="color:brown; font-size:small; font-family:Constantia;">'''Basket of Puppies'''</span>]] 16:37, 17 September 2009 (UTC) Oops, looks like it was already done. Sorry! [[User:Basket of Puppies|<span style="color:brown; font-size:small; font-family:Constantia;">'''Basket of Puppies'''</span>]] 16:38, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::Looks like some admin attention could be useful, here, though I'm inclined to speak softly for now. I've left a [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:InternetHero&diff=prev&oldid=314568590 note] asking InternetHero why they seem disinterested in resolving the dispute via consensus. – <small>[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#28f">Luna Santin</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</small> 18:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::: The discussion at [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/InternetHero]] documents InternetHero's long history of POV-waring, uncivil discussion, system gaming, and bad faith reports on other editors (I my self have been a more recent target of a  [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism&diff=prev&oldid=289948863 bad faith report]). InternetHero has stated several times that he/she edits to promote a POV[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AInternetHero&diff=222345028&oldid=222130029][http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Telescope&diff=prev&oldid=230732353]. IMHO any type of discussion is pointless with InternetHero since he/she seems to view discussion as the fig-leaf that covers POV editing, not a way to achieve consensus. I don't know if there is any "administrative" solution to be had here. InternetHero is very straight forward in his/her views, states them up front, and, despite the bad faith edits, does not really go in for more nasty stuff like vandalism or sockpuppet attacks. InternetHero's editing is infrequent and is pretty transparent so it gets ignored or reverted on a regular basses. InternetHero may just be the price of life on a WIKI. [[User:Fountains of Bryn Mawr|Fountains of Bryn Mawr]] ([[User talk:Fountains of Bryn Mawr|talk]]) 21:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== An already big problem by misinformation vandal ==

I don't know if any of you are aware about the Indonesian vandal from [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive481#118.137.x.x vandal back again|the 118.137.x.x]] and [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive341#Re: Big problem caused by "61.5.*.*/61.94.*.*" IP user|61.5.x.x/61.94.x.x]] ranges who ridiculously connected anime titles and MGM and other movie studios has continued his vandalism through other IP ranges (the 118.137.x.x range is currently blocked again, FYI), doing his edits on the very same titles and then some, despite repeated warnings and repeated blocks, all of which went unheeded. Here are the IP addresses he has vandalized from with the bold ones from '''''this week''''' alone:

*{{ipvandal|114.59.100.70}}
*{{ipvandal|114.59.207.115}}
*{{ipvandal|219.83.106.171}}
*'''{{ipvandal|202.70.61.146}}'''
*'''{{ipvandal|202.70.61.133}}'''
*'''{{ipvandal|202.70.61.148}}'''

The following are some of the articles most frequently affected, vandalized by just some or all of the last three IPs alone:
* [[Capcom vs. SNK: Millennium Fight 2000]]
* [[MGM Worldwide Television]]
* [[CBS Television Distribution]]
* [[MGM Television]]
* [[Digimon Data Squad]]
* [[Digimon Tamers]]
* [[Digimon Frontier]]
* [[Digimon Adventure]]
* [[Digimon Adventure 02]]
* [[List of Disney television series]]
* [[Sony Pictures Television]]
* [[Barbie in the 12 Dancing Princesses]]
*
* [[Transformers: Armada]]
* [[:Category:Television series by MGM Television]]
* [[MGM Worldwide Television]]
* [[Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer]]

I won't tell you about the details, but the two archive pages I linked will give you the idea of his MO.

I know a good rangeblock on the 202.70.61.x range will be a good stop-gap solution, but any long term solutions against the vandal are also welcome. This vandal has become a ''very'' major headache since he started his rampage on December 2007. - [[User: Nanami Kamimura|上村七美 (Nanami-chan)]] | <small>[[User talk: Nanami Kamimura|talkback]] | [[Special: Contributions/Nanami Kamimura|contribs]]</small> 15:59, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:{{done}} blocked 202.70.61.128/27 for 1 week. [[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 17:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::Well, he might appear later (possibly today) beyond the range currently blocked right now. Just in case let's keep watch. - [[User: Nanami Kamimura|上村七美 (Nanami-chan)]] | <small>[[User talk: Nanami Kamimura|talkback]] | [[Special: Contributions/Nanami Kamimura|contribs]]</small> 01:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Looks like he's back to vandalizing from the IP {{ipvandal|4.226.111.104}}. [[User:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Powergate92</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Powergate92|<span style="color:#fff;background:green;">Talk</span>]]</small> 02:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Actually, that's not the vandal I'm talking about. The IP in question (4.226.111.104) is in Colorado, not Indonesia. Did you report him to [[WP:AIV]]? - [[User: Nanami Kamimura|上村七美 (Nanami-chan)]] | <small>[[User talk: Nanami Kamimura|talkback]] | [[Special: Contributions/Nanami Kamimura|contribs]]</small> 04:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

== IP User:65.51.64.34 ==

{{userlinks|65.51.64.34}}

[[User:65.51.64.34]] is a vandalous anonymous IP. The IP has been blocked numerous times in the past several months for short periods, but then carries on per usual. I just reverted changes to the [[World domination]] article by this user, and decided to check their recent contributions. Going over the past 8 that have happened in the past several days, all are vandalism. I haven't verified, but I'd assume all the edits by this IP are vandalism. Can we do something about this? - '''[[User:Floydian|<span style="color:#5A5AC5;">ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ</span>]]'''&nbsp;[[User_talk:Floydian|<sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Floydian|<sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢</sub>]] 19:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
: I assume you noted on the talkpage that the IP comes from a school?  There may be collateral damage ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">talk→</span>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;[[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]]&nbsp;'''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">←track</span>]]) 20:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:: I actually hadn't noticed the school message. The vandalism has been pretty persistant over the last several days, likely by the same person from that school. Perhaps a temporary 2 day editing block (Without explicitly implying that it is temporary on the talk page) would shift the persons focus away from wikipedia? - '''[[User:Floydian|<span style="color:#5A5AC5;">ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ</span>]]'''&nbsp;[[User_talk:Floydian|<sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Floydian|<sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢</sub>]] 20:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::: I've {{tl|schoolblock}}ed for a week - might not even be one vandal, but the accumulated effect of the various vandalous schoolkids in the last few days hasn't been good. If the vandalism comes back again after that block is lifted, we can think about a longer-term anon block - but there ''have'' been some minor constructive edits from the school in previous months. ~ [[User:Mazca|<span style="color:#228b22;">'''m'''a'''z'''c'''a'''</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Mazca|talk]]</sup> 22:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[Michael Flood]] (N.B.: [[WP:DOLT]]) ==

Not sure where to bring this, but when I went to [[WP:ANI]] it directed me to [[WP:BLP]] at the head of the page.  however, I lodged it there earlier today, and have not received any feedback yet, so  I am bringing this to ANI attention because I am not sure what the best way of approaching this is, as there may be legal implications (the subject of the BLP says he is consulting his lawyer).

The Anon IP seeking to revert the consensus text [[Special:Contributions/203.39.47.146]] claims to be the subject of the BLP, and I invited him to assist me in improving the article.  I first became involved in editing the article as a neutral editor when there was deadlock over how one controversy should be best covered neutrally.  [[Talk:Michael Flood#Blatant misrepresentation]] I resolved the edit by accurately reporting what was stated in [[WP:RS]], and the dispute over the entry ceased.

[[User:Michael G. Flood]]  deleted some of the material from the consesus edit of this BLP at end of July: [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Michael_Flood&diff=305193316&oldid=290978652]
Anon IP [[Special:Contributions/121.222.114.232]] restored it on 11th Sept: [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Michael_Flood&diff=313177913&oldid=312377583]
[[User:IronAngelAlice]] reverted consensus version back to Flood's version on 12th Sept: [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Michael_Flood&diff=next&oldid=313177913]
Anon IP [[Special:Contributions/121.222.114.232]] restored it on 12th Sept: [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Michael_Flood&diff=next&oldid=313274067]

The Anon IP [[Special:Contributions/121.222.114.232]] brought the situation to my attention on my talk page on 11th & 12th Sept., and I sought to discuss this on the article talk page.  The individual seeks to have the section removed as being undue and because it makes him look stupid (it hinges on an error in a paper he published): [[Talk:Michael Flood#Partial and biased representation]]. Having invited him to help ensure the article is accurate and covers other aspects of his work, he has said he is happy to do so, but that he is seeking legal advice.  I am seeing this as possibly breaching <s>at least three policies: [[WP:AGF]] (against me personally),</s> [[WP:NLT]], and thereby [[WP:CIVIL]].  At the same time, I am concerned not to overlook [[WP:DOLT]].

The page was edited in a way that it deflected attempts at turning into an attack page, and retained material in [[WP:RS]] that was notable about him.  Problem is, from the other side of the world, in figuring out if he is notable enough to warrant a BLP.  My preference would be for his biography to be deleted, as he doesn't seem that notable, but that could result in somebody re-creating it as an attack page again.  The reason for detailing the events around the contested section was to ensure it was reported accurately, not to make him look stupid, because the text before gave a <s>non-neutral</s> slant that was not [[WP:NPOV]].  The view on this edit needs to balanced by his having a COI in an article about him, and some people simply not liking him because of his views. [[User:MishMich|Mish]] ([[User talk:MishMich|talk]]) 09:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Pending feedback on this matter, I removed the contested material, as per BLP policy/guidelines. [[User:MishMich|Mish]] ([[User talk:MishMich|talk]]) 11:12, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
: My gut feeling is that this isn't an actionable legal threat.  There were some problems BLP problms with the article, and he appears to be acting in good faith in trying to get the article cleaned up.  'round here, we tend to take swift and decisive action in response to any mention of the legal process, and that's not something I would expect a newbie to know.  He probably shouldn't have mentioned that he was talking to an attorney, but in light of his response to your pointing out the [[WP:NLT|NLT]] policy [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMichael_Flood&diff=314505616&oldid=314504068], I'd take him at his word that he wasn't trying to intimidate anyone... [[User:MirrorLockup|MirrorLockup]] ([[User talk:MirrorLockup|talk]]) 21:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:: Thanks, I just wasn't sure what to do about it - but I have now had some feedback from BLP and they have suggested some of the material should not be there (no secondary sources), and what does needs to be simplified and dealt with more briefly. [[User:MishMich|Mish]] ([[User talk:MishMich|talk]]) 22:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[User:Gregbard]] ==

After creating a fork of [[formal language]] as [[formal language (logic)]], whose merits I won't debate here, [[User:Gregbard]] has embarked on an indiscriminate campaign of changing links from the former article to the latter using [[WP:AWB]], '''even in contexts where these changes aren't even remotely justified''', like in mathematics and computer science articles which use the meaning of [[formal language]]. I've warned him to stop and revert his changes, but he wants to hear none of it. I'm requesting that his right to use AWB, which he is clearly abusing, be revoked immediately, and if his disruption continues that he be blocked. [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit|Pcap]] [[User_talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit|<small>ping</small>]] 00:41, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

:I am not going to contribute to this thread, but independent of this discussion I have nominated the fork for deletion at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Formal language (logic)]]. I also reverted a couple of the clearly incorrect link changes. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 00:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

:I will be expecting an ''explicit statement'' from whatever administrator that responds that I have not done anything wrong. The accusation amounts to his own annoyance and high rhetoric. As far as the "fork" issue is concerned, there is no moral right to that argument. Content has been repeatedly removed, so therefore the article was necessary. [[User:Gregbard|Pontiff Greg Bard]] ([[User talk:Gregbard|talk]]) 00:51, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
:: The issue at hand ''here'' is your abuse of [[WP:AWB]] to make indiscriminate edits to Math and Computer Science articles, in which you automatically and indiscriminately changed links from [[formal language]] to [[formal language (logic)]], and later refused to even look over your edits to fix errors. All this is [[WP:DISRUPTION]]. Whether we should have two different articles on formal languages as you propose (one form Math/CompSci and one for Logic) is an entirely different matter that should not be debated here. [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit|Pcap]] [[User_talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit|<small>ping</small>]] 01:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
:: More precisely I claim you have abused [[Wikipedia:AWB#Rules of use]], which state:
::* '''Check ''every'' edit ''before'' you save it. Make sure you understand the text and have NOT changed the meaning.'''
::* Don't edit too quickly; consider opening a [[Wikipedia:Bots|bot]] account if you are regularly making more than a few edits a minute.
::* '''Don't do anything controversial with it.''' If there is a chance that the edits you are considering might be controversial, consider soliciting comment at the [[WP:PUMP|village pump]] or appropriate [[WP:Wikiprojects|Wikiproject]] before proceeding.
:: Clearly, you knew you were engaged in a conflict at [[formal language]] before you started using AWB as I described above. [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit|Pcap]] [[User_talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit|<small>ping</small>]] 01:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

:I never said or implied that I wouldn't look at any of my previous edits. If a case is made, I will consider it always. However a blanket demand to revert immediately (which you made) is inappropriate. Your characterization of my actions as "indiscriminate" is not true, does not presume good faith and amounts to high rhetoric like your original threat. I actually edit quite slowly on AWB. Your threat on the other hand was quick, and ill advised. Slow down yourself. [[User:Gregbard|Pontiff Greg Bard]] ([[User talk:Gregbard|talk]]) 01:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
::"Quite slowly" here means 10 edits in 3 minutes.  This should definitely have been discussed before being done. [[User:Looie496|Looie496]] ([[User talk:Looie496|talk]]) 01:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
(ec) Inappropriate edits changing [[formal language]] to [[formal language (logic)]] in math/compsci articles: [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Decision_problem&diff=prev&oldid=314624230], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Sequence&diff=prev&oldid=314624998], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=First-order_logic&diff=prev&oldid=314624351], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Recursively_enumerable_language&diff=314625486&oldid=306090057], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Recursive_set&diff=314627717&oldid=288046979], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Closure_%28mathematics%29&diff=prev&oldid=314627662], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Many-one_reduction&diff=prev&oldid=314628294], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Abstract_structure&diff=314643630&oldid=314628008], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Montague_grammar&diff=314641653&oldid=303698172]. Your error rate is about 25%; any bot would be blocked for that. A number of changes, which I did ''not'' include in this list are in "see also" sections where it's not entirely clear whether the reader should be directed to the more general or more specific article. [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit|Pcap]] [[User_talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit|<small>ping</small>]] 02:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

::Ok whether or not those are appropriate is debatable, and you have presented this "incident" as if your opinion is gospel. This is not to say that I won't go along with some of those if they were reverted. I think your whole approach and mind-set is VERY HEAVY HANDED. Also, if I made 52 edits on AWB and Ignored 160 ... that's not indiscriminate. (However, interestingly your accusation of my being indiscriminate was itself indiscriminate since you don't really know what kind of consideration I am giving to each edit --you are presuming.) Slow down yourself.  [[User:Gregbard|Pontiff Greg Bard]] ([[User talk:Gregbard|talk]]) 02:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
::: Given that AWB only leaves an entirely '''automated edit summary''', I have no idea indeed what consideration you give to your changes. [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit|Pcap]] [[User_talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit|<small>ping</small>]] 02:28, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Precisely, you have no idea, so it was unfair to characterize my actions as any kind of "incident". Be well, [[User:Gregbard|Pontiff Greg Bard]] ([[User talk:Gregbard|talk]]) 03:14, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

'''Comment''' - as an uninvolved party, it is apparent that all AWB edits made on this matter are inherently "controversial", in that their validity is clearly disputed by a number of editors, either in this thread or at the aforementioned AFD discussion. (I am making no comment as to whether the edits are factually valid or not as I have not investigated). The simple fact is that AWB is [[Wikipedia:AWB#Rules_of_use|explicitly prohibited]] from being used to make "controversial" edits. Hence using AWB in this fashion is improper. The time spent or consideration made while using is irrelevant, unfortunately. 

I would advise you to cease using AWB for any purpose to do with your proposed fork, and to resolve the content dispute first at the relevant talk pages first. [[User:Manning Bartlett|Manning]] ([[User talk:Manning Bartlett|talk]]) 06:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)