View source for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martino de Judicibus

<noinclude>{{Delrevafd|date=2008 November 3}}</noinclude>
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:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).  No further edits should be made to this page.''
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The result was  '''merge''' to [[Ferdinand Magellan]]. If an article about the circumnavigation voyage is created, it may more appropriately host some of this material. --[[User:Moonriddengirl|Moonriddengirl]] <sup>[[User talk:Moonriddengirl|(talk)]]</sup> 01:59, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
===[[:Martino de Judicibus]]===
:{{la|Martino_de_Judicibus}} - <includeonly>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martino de Judicibus|View AfD]])</includeonly><noinclude>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2008 March 13#{{anchorencode:Martino_de_Judicibus}}|View log]])</noinclude>
This article has been created by Mr Dario de Judicibus (Vanity entry already listed for deletion cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dario_de_Judicibus)

There is no evidence about this martino de judicibus in reference history books. There is a major hoax doubt about this entry--[[User:Jbw2|Jbw2]] ([[User talk:Jbw2|talk]]) 07:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Mr. JBW, your statement is '''absolutely''' false. It is evident that your proposal has nothing to do with Wikipedia but it is a continuous attack versus me. There are several historical references about Martino. Here are some of them:

*Boyd-Bowman, Peter, "Indice geobiografico de mas de 56 mil pobladores de la America hispanica I. 1493-1519"
Messico, 1985, p.268
*A. Pigafetta, "Il viaggio di Magellano intorno al mondo" revisione di James Alexander ROBERTSON, Cleveland USA, 1906, Ed. Arthur Clark, 365 copie
*"Roteiro", nella revisione di Andrea da Mosto de "Il primo viaggio intorno al globo" di A. Pigafetta, Roma 1894
*A. Pigafetta, "Relazione del primo viaggio intorno al mondo" revisione di C. Manfroni, ed. Cassa di risp. di Verona, Vicenza e Belluno
*"Nuovo Mondo: gli italiani", per A. Pigafetta a cura di P. Collo e per G. B. da Poncevera
a cura di P.L. Crovetto, Torino, G. Einaudi ed., 1991/94

--[[User:Dejudicibus|Dejudicibus]] ([[User talk:Dejudicibus|talk]]) 12:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
:*This AfD nomination was [[:Template:AfD in 3 steps|incomplete]]. It is listed now. [[User:DumbBOT|DumbBOT]] ([[User talk:DumbBOT|talk]]) 13:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

* '''Keep''' Martín de Judicibus has quite a few Ghits, with at least one books mentioned above available to sample on Google Books. The entry needs to be trimmed though. At least half of the page is more concerned with Magellen's voyage rather than the page's subject. [[User:Alberon|Alberon]] ([[User talk:Alberon|talk]]) 14:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' This is my [[WP:HEY]] standard: I would like to see more references here. The article looks like it is based on a book written by one of his decendants. If this is all factual, and I have no reason to doubt that it is, there have to be [[wp:rs|reliable sources]] that are independent of the family. I looked at the ghits, most of them reference this wikipedia article, the writer, or the book. That is why the [[WP:GHITS]] section of [[WP:AADD]] exists. If these criteria are satisfied, he would seem to be notable enough for inclusion. Otherwise, '''Delete'''. [[User:Mstuczynski|Mstuczynski]] ([[User talk:Mstuczynski|talk]]) 15:19, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
:My original edit restored. I will thank the anonymous editor not to change the manner in which I comment. [[User:Mstuczynski|Mstuczynski]] ([[User talk:Mstuczynski|talk]]) 18:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
*'''Clarification''' References in the article, not here. [[User:Mstuczynski|Mstuczynski]] ([[User talk:Mstuczynski|talk]]) 15:33, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
:You are right. I'm doing. I did not know if I could edit an article under investigation, but it looks like I can, so I am adding references.--[[User:Dejudicibus|Dejudicibus]] ([[User talk:Dejudicibus|talk]]) 13:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Quotation from the book on Magellan's circumnavigation ''Over the Edge of The World'' (Laurence Bergreen) 2003 {{ISBN|0-06-621173-5}} listing the survivors (incl. de Judicibus) of Magellan's voyage as per the memorial plaque in Sanlucar de Barrameda: ''In the entire list only Elcano, the captain; Albo, the pilot; Bustamente, the barber; and Pigafetta, Magellan's chronicler, could be considered notable members of the armada's original roster.'' [[User:Plutonium27|Plutonium27]] ([[User talk:Plutonium27|talk]]) 16:25, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
:*All right then, add [[WP:BIO]] to my WP:HEY requirements. [[User:Mstuczynski|Mstuczynski]] ([[User talk:Mstuczynski|talk]]) 16:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
*'''Merge.''' if nothing more is known about him than the name and the title of his position, then it should be merged with the article on Magellan. I challenge the author of the article to insert any information other than his being a name on a list. If he gave testimony on his return, what does it say specifically? '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 01:02, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
:I think that this is a reasonable proposal. I referenced the research that Danilo did about Martino since most of documents about him are only available on paper. I know by sure that there are ancient books in the Archive of Indias in Sevilla because a friend of mine saw them, but I had not yet a chance to go there. I was able anyway to discover something more from a book of José Toribio Medina. I think that those 18 survivers are important. To return back from the first trip around the world in that period was like going to the moon in the last years of 2nd millennium. We know few of them, so merging could be a good approach until more info will be found. About the fact that Martino was an ancestor of mine: yes, it is true, and i am proud of him. By the way, if it wasn't so, probably nobody would take care to make further researches, as happened for most of the other survivors. I do not think there is nothing wrong to publish his story here, no more if I would the descendant of Pigafetta and I would contribute to his article in wikipedia. i am doing that with my id, so eberybody can check it.--[[User:Dejudicibus|Dejudicibus]] ([[User talk:Dejudicibus|talk]]) 09:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
::Well, I can tell you what I found in my researches. I was able to discover that, even if in several books it was called ''Genovese'' he was really from Savona, not Genova. Genova was a republic, so saying Genovese is just like saying Italian or French today. I also found the name of father and mother. Father was Italian, but the mother was Spanish. I found documents that says that he arrived safe in Spain, and that he was interrogated by Inquisition (all survivors were interrogated). I know that in the Archive of "Las Indias" in Seville there are documents about the interrogatory, but they can be seen only by a special authorization since they are really ancient. Inquisition was involved because of mutiny. Some of the survivors, in fact, were faithful to Magellan, some to El Cano. They had to collaborate to survive (otherwise not enough people to manage the ship), but as soon as they arrived in Spain, they began to accuse each other. There was a political debate, also to decide who really circumnavigated the globe. Some people said that Magellan was to be mentioned, since he was the leader, but he did not finished the trip. Other people said it was El Cano, since he survived and was of high rank, but it was considered by them a mutinous.--[[User:Dejudicibus|Dejudicibus]] ([[User talk:Dejudicibus|talk]]) 13:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)   

*'''Delete''' , the page refer to Dario de Judicibus family page (once more autopromotion - cf. Dario de Judicibus other discussion about this topic)--[[Special:Contributions/195.68.44.206|195.68.44.206]] ([[User talk:195.68.44.206|talk]]) 11:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
:Oh, please!!!! Stop it! This is ridicolous. Wikipedians should deal only with notability and trueness of content. Most of references about Martino are on paper, not web, so the link to that page is used to refer to bibliography, but I can also copy the bibliography info directly in the wikipedia page. It is a couple of days that you are attacking me everywhere by using a lot of false (and it si easy to demonstrate they are false) statements. I do not have any idea who you are but you look like a ''troll''. Let's go back to facts, ok?--[[User:Dejudicibus|Dejudicibus]] ([[User talk:Dejudicibus|talk]]) 13:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

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I agree with the proposal to merge Martino and Magellan articles. I may also provide a list of books and researches about Martino and a verifiable bibliography. I would appreciate if merging might be done by someone different from me (possibly an administartor), so that we can stop all those absurd accuses of self-promotion. I will only add the references. Thank you in advance.--[[User:Dejudicibus|Dejudicibus]] ([[User talk:Dejudicibus|talk]]) 13:34, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
:I thought that if I provided references that you can check, that would be easier for administrators to verify them. So I am doing. I am not changing the content of article but only adding references. Please, let me know if you have any concern about.--[[User:Dejudicibus|Dejudicibus]] ([[User talk:Dejudicibus|talk]]) 13:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
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:<span style="color:#FF4F00;">'''Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.'''</span><br /><small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:Locobot|Locobot]] ([[User talk:Locobot|talk]]) 01:20, 21 May 2009 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:Relist --> [[User:Tiptoety|<span style="color:#00008B;font-weight:bold">Tiptoety</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Tiptoety|<span style="color:#FFDB58">talk</span>]]</sup> 04:45, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
*'''merge''' per DGG.  The article's content pertains to Magellan's voyage, the biography content is a trivial wrapper around the voyage based on the fact that his name appears on a list of people who went on the trip. I don't see this amounting to the extensive coverage of Martino de Judicibus as a topic in indpendent secondary sources as required by WP:N.  In fact I doubt there's anything here of substance to merge into an article on this voyage, but I do note that the article's defender, User:Dejudicibus agrees with the proposal to merge.  Maybe it's time to close it as that, rather than relist? [[User:Pete.Hurd|Pete.Hurd]] ([[User talk:Pete.Hurd|talk]]) 05:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

*'''Smerge''' a brief profile into [[Magellan]] and '''redirect'''. Not independently notable, just barely a plausible search term. I am vastly surprised we do not yet have a separate article on the circumnavigation voyage, though. --[[User:Dhartung|Dhartung]] | [[User talk:Dhartung|Talk]] 09:10, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

*I agree with Dhartung. In my opinion '''we should have an article for the circumnavigation voyage''' separated from the articles of the various people who participated, as magellano, Pigafetta, El cano, Martino, and so forth. I would recommend to preserve from Martino article the sections about the voyage (chronicle and route) and the images. I designed the images myself, so I can authorize Wikipedia to use them under Common Creative license 3.0 in an article about voyage, if you think they may be useful.--[[User:Dejudicibus|Dejudicibus]] ([[User talk:Dejudicibus|talk]]) 18:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
*Based on the material available, Martino de Judicibus does not yet seem to deserve a separate article, though I take the point of [[User:Dejudicibus|Dejudicibus]] that merely by surviving the journey, his achievement was similar to that of those landing on the moon in our own time. The most logical route appears to be to '''start a new article about the voyage and merge''' his information into that. Failing that, a merge with Magellan seems reasonable, though in that context it's not clear that more than the existing table is required. Leaving a redirect seems sensible. [[User:Espresso Addict|Espresso Addict]] <small>([[User talk:Espresso Addict|talk]])</small> 01:35, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>