View source for Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Suicide of Rachel Foster/archive1

{{Fa top|result = '''archived''' by [[User:Ian Rose|Ian Rose]] via [[User:FACBot|FACBot]] ([[User talk:FACBot|talk]]) 19 November 2024 [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/The_Suicide_of_Rachel_Foster/archive1&diff=1258472866&oldid=1258472866]}}
===[[The Suicide of Rachel Foster]]===



:<small style="font-style:italic;">Nominator(s): [[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 23:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)</small>

This article is about a video game that proved somewhat controversial upon its release due to tackling taboo subjects like suicide and pedophilia. A game in the vein of ''[[Firewatch]]'' and ''[[Gone Home]]'', ''The Suicide of Rachel Foster'' is a [[walking simulator]] where players navigate the eery ''Shining''-esque hotel owned by the player character Nicole's family. There, Nicole hopes to uncover the true nature of 16-year-old Rachel's suicide, who seemingly killed herself after the community found out about her "affair" with Nicole's father and ensuing pregnancy. Unsurprisingly, the game's depiction of pedophilia and suicide were some of the topics most-discussed by journalists. Outside of the more sensationalistic aspects, the game's setting and characters were well-received, but the story and gameplay proved less interesting to reviewers.

==== Image review by Nikkimaria ====
*Suggest adding alt text
** I've added alt text to both images, though I can never be sure if it's an adequate description or not.
*File:The_Suicide_of_Rachel_Foster_-_Gameplay.jpg needs a stronger, more unique FUR - at the moment it's almost identical to the lead image. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 05:03, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
** I changed the template that is used and also the fair-use rationale.--[[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 10:25, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

==== Support from BP! ====
I'll get back to it as soon as possible.  🍕[[User:Boneless Pizza!|<span style="background:orange;border-radius:9999px;padding:1px 8px;color:white;"><span style="font-weight:bold">B</span>P!</span>]]🍕 ([[User talk:Boneless Pizza!|🔔]]) 05:50, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
* Be consistent with whether or not the citations use title case for the titles. Make sure to italicize game titles in the citation titles per [[MOS:CONFORMTITLE]].  🍕[[User:Boneless Pizza!|<span style="background:orange;border-radius:9999px;padding:1px 8px;color:white;"><span style="font-weight:bold">B</span>P!</span>]]🍕 ([[User talk:Boneless Pizza!|🔔]]) 10:33, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
*:Done. Unless I missed something, I've made sure to italicize references to the game (and other games/films) in titles, as well as capitalizing all words except words like "if". [[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 14:32, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
*::After reading it again, I will Support this article for promotion. Though, I'll admit that I didn't like that piece from ''[[Screen Rant]]'' at all.  🍕[[User:Boneless Pizza!|<span style="background:orange;border-radius:9999px;padding:1px 8px;color:white;"><span style="font-weight:bold">B</span>P!</span>]]🍕 ([[User talk:Boneless Pizza!|🔔]]) 01:08, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
*:::Thank you! I guess I shouldn't be surprised you wouldn't like the Screen Rant source; still remember Ada's FAC. I did check the reliable sources list, and Screen Rant is considered appropriate when discussing entertainment-related pages, such as this. However, if someone else raises concerns about it, I could remove it. Admittedly, it's not used much as is.--[[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 12:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
*::::Fair enough  🍕[[User:Boneless Pizza!|<span style="background:orange;border-radius:9999px;padding:1px 8px;color:white;"><span style="font-weight:bold">B</span>P!</span>]]🍕 ([[User talk:Boneless Pizza!|🔔]]) 13:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

==== Support from Crisco ====
I've had this on my backlog for ages. Will review. &nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Crisco 1492|Chris Woodrich]] ([[User talk:Crisco 1492|talk]]) 09:40, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
*the abuse between Leonard and Rachel - Implies that Rachel was also abusive of Leonard, which seems incongruous with what's been presented so far. Perhaps "Leonard's abuse of Rachel"?
** Honestly, that's one of the hardest parts of this video game. How something is versus how the game depicts it as. Although Leonard groomed Rachel and their relationship is pedophilic, the game never really calls their relationship for what it is. Should the word "abuse" be changed to "relationship", or something else?--[[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 12:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
***Relationship does seem to be the more neutral term. &nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Crisco 1492|Chris Woodrich]] ([[User talk:Crisco 1492|talk]]) 12:16, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
***:Understandable. It is also how the game frames it as. Made the appropriate changes. [[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 12:33, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
***::Thanks. Give me a shout when you're done the below, and I'll revisit. &nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Crisco 1492|Chris Woodrich]] ([[User talk:Crisco 1492|talk]]) 15:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
*such as [[child sexual abuse]] and suicide, to portray them with sensitivity. - Not sure the comma is correct
** Removed.
*Three sentences in a row start with variations of "it" in the third paragraph of the lede. Worth reshuffling?
** Changed.
*Nicole's attempts to do so anyway, but is unable to do so, angering her.  - Do so ... do so
** Given that this part isn't all that significant to the plot, I just removed the sentence.
*Rachel might still be alive, collecting various clues - Is Rachel collecting clues, or is Nicole?
** Clarified that it's Nicole collecting clues.
*Irving is Rachel's younger brother and in their abusive household, only his sister brought him joy. - Perhaps "Irving is Rachel's younger brother, and she was the only one who brought him joy and in their abusive household."?
** Made a few changes; hopefully for the better.
*The game was developed by the Italian studio One-O-One Games using Unreal Engine 4 and published by Daedalic Entertainment.[6][7] The game was directed by Daniele Azara and its music was composed by Federico Landini. - Repetition
** Changed.
*From the beginning of the game's development, the studio wanted the narrative and gameplay to complement one another, rather than finishing the story first and then choosing an appropriate gameplay style. - Perhaps "Rather than finish the story first and then choosing an appropriate gameplay style, from the beginning of the game's development the studio wanted the narrative and gameplay to complement one another."? Feels a bit more logical in flow.
*being set in an enclosed space to increase the [[claustrophobia]]. - The hotel itself wasn't in an enclosed space. Perhaps "being replete with enclosed spaces"?
*the Overlook Hotel, featured in [[Stanley Kubrick]]'s ''[[The Shining (film)|The Shining]]'' (1980) - Perhaps "as featured"? That better distinguishes the Overlook from the one in the novel or the television series.
* Two "according to"s at the beginning of the Reception section
*handling of suicide, especially regarding Nicole's suicide attempt at the end,  - Worth recasting to avoid double mentions of suicide?
** Reworked the sentence and expanded on what Bell had to say about the subject.

Overall, very tight. &nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Crisco 1492|Chris Woodrich]] ([[User talk:Crisco 1492|talk]]) 10:08, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
:{{ping|Crisco 1492}} Thank you. :) I believe I've made most of the necessary changes, though I've also changed a few things a bit, so I'm not sure if said changes also need revision.--[[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 20:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
*Looks good. Happy to support!&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Crisco 1492|Chris Woodrich]] ([[User talk:Crisco 1492|talk]]) 00:29, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
*:Thank you for your comments. :D [[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 15:59, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

==== Source review from Aoba47 (pass) ====
For clarification, I am using [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=The_Suicide_of_Rachel_Foster&oldid=1252800419 this version] of the article for my source review. My comments are below:

* Have you looked through to see if there was any academic coverage on this game by using tools like [[Google Scholar]]? I have found some potential sources here, but for some of them, you would need to go through [[Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Library|the Wikipedia Library]] to access them: [https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-88272-3_11 A Review of Indie Games for Serious Mental Health Game Design], [https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-25906-7_5 Narrative Space in Videogames], and [https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-88272-3_12 Using Indie Games to Inform Serious Mental Health Games Design]. These are all conference papers so I am unsure how that works for Wikipedia, but they were published by [[Springer Publishing]], which is a notable publishing company. It may be worthwhile to look into this type of coverage further.
** Good idea. I'll be looking into it.
*** Take as much time as you need, and let me know if there is anything that I can do to help you with this part. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 16:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
**** I looked into all three sources. I went through both sources talking about Nicole's attempted suicide. Admittedly, I didn't read in-depth every thing these two chapters said, but I believe I pinpointed the most important details; as with other critics, they didn't like the ending. The third book source is about the Timberline. Although I do for the most part understand what it's trying to say, it's a bit too theoretical for my taste and focuses on something that never really interested me when analyzing texts; the geometry/geography of physical spaces. It also has A LOT to say about the Timberline, so I'm not sure how I could even consense all of that. Even the other book sources talking about Nicole's suicide still came out to almost 8 whole lines.--[[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 19:57, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
***** Thank you for the response. I understand that it can be difficult to incorporate academic sources into a Wikipedia article. I think that the final paragraph in the "Critical response" section could be condensed. I am not sure that the [[serious game]] classification or the ''Actual Sunlight'' comparisons are particularly useful, and I believe it would be better to focus on the discussions regarding the critique that the game uses suicide for shock value. I would think this could folded into the paragraph directly above it, which already focuses on the game's handling of suicide.
****** All right, I've condensed it. I think its size is more appropriate now, and the section fits better with the paragraph about suicide.
***** The [https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-25906-7_5 Narrative Space in Videogames] article is primarily saying that the hotel is set in such a way to intentionally confuse the player and their connection to the story and characters. It might fit in the second paragraph of the "Critical response" section as that is already about the hotel, but since it is more of an analysis than a review, it may not work out that well. I will leave that up to you. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 21:55, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
* The citations for the most part list both the website/work and the publisher, but there are some spots where only one is listed, such as Citation 6 including only the website (''[[The Washington Post]]'') and Citation 13 including only the website (''JeuxOnline''). I do not think it is necessary to include both, particularly for well known citations such as ''[[Metacritic]]'', but it is important to be consistent.
** I just wanted to add a reminder that this part has not been addressed yet. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 21:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
*** {{ping|Aoba47}} Regarding the Unreal Engine, Nintendo, Italian Video Game Awards, and DStars sources, I'm not quite sure how else to cite them. In the case of the first one, I could label "Unreal Engine" as the website and "Epic Games" as the publisher, but I'm not sure if that's right either.
**** I think that the question then becomes how useful is it to have both the website/work and publisher if they cannot be applied consistently throughout the citations. It may just be me, but I am not sure how useful it is for readers to have the publisher for citations like ''[[Bloody Disgusting]]'' or ''Metacritic'', but I looked at recent FAs on video games, such as [[Islanders (video game)|''Islanders'' (video game)]], which has a similiar inconsistency, but was passed as a FA without issue so I think that this is just a matter of personal preference so it will no longer be an issue. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 14:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
* I would be consistent on whether [[title case]] is used for the citation titles or not as there are some instances, such as Citation 30, where it is not being used.
** Oops. This point was raised a few days ago by Boneless Pizza. I made sure to use title case everywhere, but didn't add the source for the sequel until later, and in my excitement I forgot to use the title case.
*** That is understandable. I was only made aware of the title case stuff relatively recently, and I completely understand getting caught up in the moment when you find something new. I would not have expected a sequel for this game, and I am curious on how it will turn out. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 16:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
* Citation 9 is no longer active and currently redirects to a spam website. The archive link also leads to an error screen. I also cannot open Citation 25 as it leads to an error screen (at least for me), but the archive link does work for me.
** Regarding Citation 9, the archive page actually works just fine for me. However, since you also mention further down that this is one source that's unreliable, I decided to remove it altogether. It's unreliability was actually raised by IceWelder during the GAN, so I kinda expected that I'd have to remove it. I guess I was just waiting for someone to say so.
** Regarding Citation 25, on my end it actually said that it's a malicious website (probably from my antivirus program) so I removed that as well. Besides, the second source I used there already shows that ''Rachel Foster'' got nominated but lost.
*** Thank you for the responses to both. I am glad that you were able to have a citation that would cover the second part. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 16:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
* I partially relied on the [[WP:VG/RS]] to judge the reliability and appropriateness of the sources. I am not as familiar with the non-English sources so could you please explain how/why the following would be appropriate for a FA? To be clear, I am not saying that they should be removed, but I wanted some more insight on these: ''L'Ambidextre'', ''Nikoofar Music'', and ''ProSieben Games''.
** Regarding Nikoofar Music, I explain more above why I removed it. Having checked ''L'Ambidextre'' out again, it seems to be a blog, so not all that reliable. As for ''ProSieben Games'', I'll admit I don't really have any information about this specific site and how reliable or not it is. I do know that ProSieben itself is a news channel, and from the little I do know, ProSieben is considered reputable.
*** Thank you for addressing this for me. I agree with your rationale for the ProSieban source. I noticed that you did remove Graziano Pimpolari as the game's artist, but I think that you could cite this information directly to the game's credits, where they are listed as the art director and user interface artists. I have used credits for this kind of thing for ''[[Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Wrath of the Darkhul King]]'' without any issue, and it may be helpful to use so more key information is included in the article. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 16:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
* This is not part of the source review, but I would re-examine short sections, specifically the "Accolades" subsection and the "Sequel" section. The accolades could be folded into the general reception section, and until more information on the sequel comes out, I do not think a one-sentence section is necessary.
** I can definitely place the "Accolade" subsection into the "Critical response" one and just remove both subsections. However, how could the "Sequel" section be placed somewhere else. Could we "in good faith" leave it there under the assumption more information will come out in the coming months about it?--[[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 08:41, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
*** That's fair. As I said above, this falls outside of the scope of a source review so I will leave this up to reviewers who are looking at the prose. I can understand your perspective on it. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 16:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
**** It seems like the "Accolades" subsection has been put back into the article. I will not dwell on it as again, it is outside of the scope of my source review, but I just do not think that this particular structure is the best approach. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 21:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

These are my comments for now. Either tomorrow or later in the week, I will do a spot check to make sure that things said in the article are supported in the citations and to make sure the information in the citation structure (i.e. authors, publication date) are accurate. I hope that this review is helpful, and please let me know if you have any questions. Best of luck with this FAC! [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 00:16, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

{{od}} 
For clarification, I am looking at [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=The_Suicide_of_Rachel_Foster&oldid=1253195409 this version] for this set of comments:

* For this sentence, (Players take control of Nicole as she explores the Timberline Hotel), Citation 2 does not use the name of the hotel. This is nitpick-y as Citation 2 does talk about the family hotel, but I would add Citation 3 here as well just to support the actual hotel name.
** Done
* It may be helpful to include examples of the puzzles in the prose. For instance, Citation 3 lists "hunting for a screwdriver or a generator switch" as examples of the "very light environmental puzzle" in the game. Citation 18 mentions using the flash from the polaroid camera as way to navigate during a blackout. Citation 4 talks about a map feature that may be useful to bring up in the article. I am mostly just bringing some gameplay areas that could be expanded with the sources already in the article.
* For Citation 11, I think it would be more beneficial to use [[Template:Cite interview|the interview citation template]] instead.
** I think I did that correctly.
*** Looks good to me. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 14:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
* I did a spot-check and the authors, publication dates, etc. match between the sources and the citations.
* I am uncertain about using quotes from non-English sources. Examples are "central to the horror experience" and "religious population and legal framework that offered a plausible setting for the narrative of psychological horror and moral taboo [the developers] were making", which are both tied to Citation 11. However, neither are really direct quotes, and are translated versions of these quotes. I think it may be best to paraphrase in this context, and I would double-check the article for other instances of this type of quote.
** {{ping|Aoba47}} I might be wrong, but I checked the non-English sources used in this article, and none of them exist in the article with quotations. Citation 11 does come from a French website, but the article itself was actually presented in English. I think there was also a French-language version of the same interview, but the one cited here is the English-language one.  
*** Apologies for that. That is what I get for doing a review later at night when I am tired. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 15:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
* This is outside of the scope of a source review, but I would avoid the "with X verb-ing" sentence construction when possible as it is something that is often pointed out and discouraged in FACs. I do not have a particularly strong opinion on it, but I still thought it was worth drawing your attention to it. An example of this would be (with Nicole and Irving's relationship and voice actors also being commended) in the lead.

Thank you for your patience with my review. I believe that should be everything, but once everything has been addressed, I will double-check through everything just to make sure that I have not missed anything. I hope you are having a great week so far. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 21:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
: Thank you for addressing everything, and apologies again for my mistake with the ''JeuxOnline'' source. Everything looks good to me in regards to the sources. They are reliable and appropriate for a potential video game FA, support the information provided in the article, and are formatted correctly. This '''passes''' my source review. I hope that this was helpful, and thank you again for your patience. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 14:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
::Thank you for taking the time to do a source review. And for going above and beyond to not do just that, but also give me suggestions on how to enlarge and improve the article's content. And also informing me that those academic sources could be accessed through the Wikipedia Library. [[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 15:58, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
:::Thank you for the kind words. I am just glad that I could help. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 22:25, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

*Hi [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]]. This is the nominator's first run at FAC, so it also needs a source to text integrity check and a plagiarism check. Would you consider your sour source review to also have appropriately have covered them? Thanks. [[User:Gog the Mild|Gog the Mild]] ([[User talk:Gog the Mild|talk]]) 00:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
*:Thank you for the ping. Apologies for not clarifying this in my above review. I am not that experienced in source reviews if I am being honest. I have done a source to text integrity check, and I did not notice any issues. I also did a plagiarism check, and for the most part, everything looks good to me, but I did find something. 
*:Looking through the article again, I did notice two instances in the article, ("affected by the tragedies surrounding" and "to encourage players to think critically about"), where the prose was taken directly from the source (i.e. [https://jv.jeuxonline.info/article/14888/interview-with-one-o-one-the-suicide-of-rachel-foster Citation 12]) and I believe both parts should be paraphrased. Apologies for not catching this during my review. Hopefully, both should be somewhat easy fixes. Thank you again for the ping. I greatly appreciate it. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 01:46, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
*::{{ping|Aoba47}} I have paraphrased both sections, though I'm not sure if the changes are necessarily good. [[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 13:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
*:::Thank you for the response. I have done a small copy-edit to one of the parts, but feel free to revert it if you disagree with the change. It looks good to me. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 16:40, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

====Joe====
Forthcoming. [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<sup style="color:#D18719">64</sup>]] 13:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

:Hi [[User:TheJoebro64|Joe]], just a reminder. [[User:Gog the Mild|Gog the Mild]] ([[User talk:Gog the Mild|talk]]) 00:23, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
::Thanks, I have some notes for a review. Posting sometime later today or early tomorrow. [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<sup style="color:#D18719">64</sup>]] 13:53, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

* I get that this is a fairly plot-heavy game, but I think the first paragraph of the lede should have some gameplay details. I think that's pretty important to cover when introducing a reader to a video game.
* Going off the previous point, I think the first paragraph is a little excessive on plot details. If I were you, I would reduce it. Here's my recommendation:
** Original: {{red|The story follows Nicole Wilson in Lewis and Clark County, Montana, during December 1993 on a visit to her family's Timberline Hotel. Having left ten years prior with her mother following the revelation that her father Leonard was in a sexual relationship with the teenaged Rachel Foster, Nicole plans on quickly inspecting the Timberline and selling it. After being forced to stay there due to a heavy snowstorm starting after her arrival, Nicole's only contact with the outside world is a Federal Emergency Management Agency agent named Irving. With his help, Nicole decides to investigate the relationship between Leonard and Rachel, as well as her mysterious suicide.}}
** Suggested revision: {{green|The story, set in December 1993, follows Nicole Wilson on a visit to her family's Timberline Hotel. Having left ten years prior with her mother after learning of her father Leonard's affair with the teenaged Rachel Foster, Nicole plans to quickly inspect the Timberline and sell it. She is forced to stay longer due to a heavy snowstorm, and decides to investigate Leonard and Rachel's relationship, as well as Rachel's mysterious suicide.}}
:then dedicate a sentence or two to summarizing the gameplay.
* Here's a copyedit suggestion: hit Ctrl+F and search for "the game's" and "of the game". You will find that in 99.9% of all cases, you can cut them without losing anything. Examples:
** "The <s>game's</s> narrative and gameplay were developed simultaneously to ensure that one would complement the other.
** "The <s>game's</s> setting—the Timberline Hotel—was praised, as was the sound design for helping create an appropriate atmosphere."
** "Joffard denounced the narrative for not being engaging enough, causing the player to become a spectator, as well as the <s>game's</s> ending and twists, finding them inconsistent with the rest of the <s>game's</s> story."
** "The Windows version <s>of the game</s> was released on February 19, 2020."
** "During the <s>course of the</s> game, Nicole will have to solve "very light environmental puzzles" to progress with the story, such as acquiring a screwdriver or finding a generator switch."
* In general, I think the prose could use a lot of tightening: I think you could be a bit more compact and straight to the point, and use the active voice as much as possible. I'll reproduce the second lede paragraph:
** {{red|In developing ''The Suicide of Rachel Foster'', One-O-One Games aimed to create a horror game that emphasized suspense and fear instead of traditional monsters. The game's narrative and gameplay were developed simultaneously to ensure that one would complement the other. The game was created as a walking simulator to allow real-life topics to be explored, given the genre's emphasis on narrative. The Overlook Hotel from the 1980 film ''The Shining'' was used as inspiration for the Timberline's architecture. The developers sought professional advice for the game's depiction of topics such as child sexual abuse and suicide to portray them with sensitivity. The game was released in February 2020 for Windows and in September 2020 for PlayStation 4 and Xbox One; it was ported to the Nintendo Switch in October 2021.}}
:Here's what I was able to cut it down to in just a few minutes:
::{{green|One-O-One Games aimed to create a horror game that emphasized suspense and fear over traditional monsters, and developed the narrative and gameplay simultaneously to ensure they would complement each other. They designed ''The Suicide of Rachel Foster'' as a walking simulator to explore real-life topics, given the genre's emphasis on narrative, and the Overlook Hotel from the 1980 film ''The Shining'' served as inspiration for the Timberline. The developers sought professional advice for the depiction of topics such as child sexual abuse and suicide to portray them with sensitivity. Daedalic released ''The Suicide of Rachel Foster'' for Windows in February 2020, for PlayStation 4 and Xbox One in September 2020, and for Nintendo Switch in October 2021.}}
:I've managed to reduce the word count substantially without removing any information or changing any meaning. I would take some scissors, go through the rest of the article, and see what you can trim. You'll be left with leaner, clearer, and more direct prose. I recommend the following essays if you need some additional assistance: [[WP:REDEX]], [[WP:ELEVAR]]
* Will do a reference spotcheck sometime tomorrow.

I guess you could call this a '''light oppose''' for the moment; I think the research and structure's good, but the writing needs some cleanup before we're ready for the star. Ping me once you've gone through I'll give the article another read, and I'll make some minor tweaks myself if necessary. [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<sup style="color:#D18719">64</sup>]] 19:57, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

:Thank you for your suggestions! I agree that I can be more direct and concise. A problem I often struggle with; that and repeating words and/or information for some reason. I'll try to thoroughly go through the article and see how I can trim a few things or change others. [[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 23:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:{{ping|TheJoebro64}} I've gone through the article again. I tried trimming down certain things, expanding a couple others, and reorganizing here and there. [[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 13:53, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
::Sounds great, I'll take another look sometime tomorrow. [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<sup style="color:#D18719">64</sup>]] 14:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
:::Should get around to posting my second review today. [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<sup style="color:#D18719">64</sup>]] 16:51, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
{{od}} (Apologies it's been two days!) I've read through the article again, and I definitely agree with Gog's suggestion to take this through the GOCE before another nomination. I think the prose all around needs a bit of tightening that I think is outside the scope of an FAC. Here are some examples:
*Gameplay:
** {{red|Her only means of communication is a radiotelephone she can use to talk with Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) agent Irving Crawford. The player can choose from a dialogue tree how they reply during conversations with him.}} → {{green|She uses a radiotelephone to communicate with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) agent Irving Crawford and can choose responses in a dialogue tree.}}
*Plot:
** {{red|Nicole receives a phone call—despite the hotel's phone lines being down—and is warned to not sell the hotel, as Rachel "is still there". The following day, Nicole finds a recently opened lipstick and tells Irving about her theory that Rachel might still be alive, deciding to collect various clues.}} → {{green|Although the hotel's phone lines are down, Nicole receives a call warning her not to sell the hotel because Rachel remains there. Nicole discovers a recently opened lipstick and, theorizing that Rachel is alive, decides to investigate.}}
* Development:
** {{red|The developers chose a hotel as the setting in the belief that an indoor environment would more easily cause players to experience fear and claustrophobia.}} → {{green|One-O-One Games set the game in a hotel, believing that players would experience fear and claustrophobia in an indoor environment.}}
** {{red|The team wanted players to reflect on the game's topics after playing it, believing discussions of these topics can lead to healing.}} → {{green|The team wanted players to reflect on the topics as they felt discussion facilitates healing.}}
* Reception:
** {{red|Though Evans-Thirlwell enjoyed the game's first half, its second half and ending were criticized and described as "melodramatic".}} → {{green|Evans-Thirlwell enjoyed the first half, but criticized the second half and ending as melodramatic.}}
** {{red|Watts criticized the portrayal of Leonard and Rachel's relationship for being presented in a romantic light, Rachel's lack of agency in the story, and the lack of sensitivity afforded to the handling of child abuse, arguing the game to sensationalize the topic; alongside suicide.}} → {{green|Watts criticized the presentation of Leonard and Rachel's relationship as romantic, Rachel's lack of agency, and the handling of child abuse as lacking sensitivity. He argued the game sensationalized child abuse and suicide.}}
* Some stylistic things that also popped up to me:
** You're using [[false title]]s, e.g. "developed by Italian studio One-O-One Games" instead of "developed by ''the'' Italian studio One-O-One Games". This is actually discouraged by a few style guides and the essay [[WP:FALSETITLE]] makes a decent argument that it should be avoided on Wikipedia, as we're an encyclopedia rather than a news publication.
** Development and release are separate processes handled by different teams. Most of the first paragraph of the development and release section could become a separate release section. You could also add discussion of how the game was marketed, like through trailers and promos and stuff, if that received any coverage.
** I don't think the subsections in development are necessary and in fact I think the article would read better if you combined the two. I think separating the choice of genre from story development makes little sense, for instance.
** The reception section makes generalizations, such as "The depiction of child sexual abuse and Rachel and Leonard's relationship was lambasted", that need direct references. You can do [[WP:REFBUNDLE]]s for the generalization cites; see [[Donkey Kong Land#Reception]] for an example of this.
** The reception section has quite a few [[scare quotes]]—you don't need to place quotations around words like "melodramatic", "obvious", or "thrilling".
** This is up to you, but reception sections for VG articles don't necessarily have to name the critics unless they're notable (e.g. [[Matt Casamassina]], [[Jeff Gerstmann]]). Just naming the publication can suffice, as the critic is typically speaking on behalf of the publication and it often makes reception sections easier to follow.
** You've got a few one-sentence paragraphs, which are [[WP:PARAGRAPH|generally discouraged]].
*** I count two. The last paragraph in the "Development" section, and the one about the sequel. I can definitely work with the former, but at this point, given the dearth of sources on the sequel, I don't know what to do there.--[[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 19:49, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I really hope this isn't discouraging—I've encountered plenty of opposes in my FACs and understand how brutal it can feel, but trust me that I genuinely did enjoy learning about this subject and want this article to be the best it possibly can. From my years at FAC, I've actually come to appreciate (if not enjoy!) opposes because they help me identify my deficiencies and work towards correcting them. I'll be more than willing to help you clean up this article in the future because I want to see if get the star. I just don't think it's there yet. [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<sup style="color:#D18719">64</sup>]] 15:44, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

:Don't worry Joe. I've been expecting this candidacy to fail for some time now. I appreciate your help this now and your genuine interest in the game. I'll try to address some of your comments as soon as possible. [[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 18:04, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

==== Oppose from Gog the Mild ====
Recusing to review.

*"The story, set in ..." What story? Maybe something like 'The game revolves around [is focused on/is centered around/or similar] a story, set in ...'
*"all the while capable of using a radio-telephone to". '''Optional''': 'all the while able to use a radio-telephone to'.
*"to ensure they would complement each other." Maybe 'so they would complement each other'?
*"They designed The Suicide of Rachel Foster as a walking simulator to explore real-life topics". See [[MOS:NOFORCELINK]]: "Do use a link wherever appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links." I think "walking simulator" falls foul of this. Any chance of a ''brief'' in line explanation? And in the main article, where you could be a little more expansive if you wish.
*"and the Overlook Hotel from the 1980 film The Shining served as inspiration for the Timberline." Perhaps put this in a separate sentence? It doesn't seem to have any compelling link to the first half of the sentence.
Lead reviewed. More to follow. [[User:Gog the Mild|Gog the Mild]] ([[User talk:Gog the Mild|talk]]) 17:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

*"FEMA". In full at first mention please. (Both in the lead and in the main article.
** Done.
*Does Irving have a first name?
** It's Crawford. Granted, given the reveal at the end that he's Rachel's brother and was only pretending to be a FEMA agent, it's possible his first and last name are both fake; Rachel's surname being Foster. But the game never acknowledges this, so...
*"very light environmental puzzles". The MoS on quotations: "[t]he source must be named '''in article text''' if the quotation is an opinion". Emphasis in original.
*"Throughout the game, Nicole acquires a ..." "throughout" is factually and/or grammatically incorrect. You mean "during', but have recently used it to start a  sentence. Maybe delete "Throughout the game" altogether.
** Replaced with "as the game progresses".
*"Repeated mentions of "Nicole". Replace one or two with 'she'.
** Done.
*Having skimmed the "Plot section it seems to give too much detail. I would argue for a more summary style. I will leave reviewing this section until we reach a conclusion on this point and any agreed actions have been completed. I note that {{u|TheJoebro64}} may be making a similar point. TJ64, is that right? [[User:Gog the Mild|Gog the Mild]] ([[User talk:Gog the Mild|talk]]) 22:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*:I don't entirely disagree about the section's length. I do wish for JoeBro to leave a few more comments, but once that's done I will try and condense or remove a few things. [[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 23:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
:::Could you ping me once you are happy for me to formally review this section. Thanks. Moving on:
*"was designed as a walking simulator due to". "walking simulator" again.
*"The Suicide of Rachel Foster was designed as a walking simulator due to the genre's emphasis on narrative, allowing for the exploration of real-life topics". So, does the genre allow "for the exploration of real-life topics" or just this game? Why did "the genre's emphasis on narrative" cause the game to be "designed as a walking simulator"? Eg was it as a contrast, to fit in with consumers' expectations of the genre, both, something else?
:* The developers specifically stated that: "As you can imagine we very much love this game genre [walking sims], since it places an incredible focus on narrative mechanics and is a great format to approach real-life subject matters in an interesting manner". It was the genre itself that allows for the exploration of real-life topics "in an interesting manner". Even more specifically, it is the "narrative mechanics" of this genre which allow for this exploration to take place. This being why the developers wanted to make a walking simulator.
:::Interesting; I still have no clue what a "walking simulator is and/or does. [[User:Gog the Mild|Gog the Mild]] ([[User talk:Gog the Mild|talk]]) 20:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
::::To be honest, I haven't really played all that many adventure games myself, but from my understanding, walking sims are adventure games that specifically focus on environmental exploration, having very little in the way of enemies, boss battles, etc. There's also less emphasis on the gameplay aspects, in a way, and much more focus on the story, the characters, and their relationships to one another. The setting and environment is a core component, as exploring said environment is what helps players piece the puzzle together and figure out the story. Should I add a note in the lede where I summarize what walking sims are? [[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 21:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
*"the game has over 100,000 words of dialogue." What has this to do with the earlier part of the sentence? Or is it just an interesting factoid?
:*I guess it does come across a bit more as a fun tidbit. Admittedly, I'm not sure if many other games have such information somewhere in their articles. I can just remove; it won't affect the article much.
*"The hotel's design drew heavily from the Overlook Hotel, the main setting of Stanley Kubrick's The Shining (1980)." Why?
:*I checked the source again, and ONE-O-ONE stated that by trying to make the Timberline look like the Overlook Hotel, they hoped that they could "plac[e] the player in an environment that would subconsciously trigger players to feel fear based on experience and expectation". I guess the indication here being that the Overlook and ''The Shining'' are both so famous (I've never seen the movie) that the developers knew if they made the setting resemble the movie, players would experience fear simply by association. [[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 20:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
*"and because the state has a "religious population and legal framework" which provided a "plausible setting for the narrative of psychological horror and moral taboo [they] were making"." Attribute in line per the MoS on quotations please.
:*If I'm understanding this rule correct, I have to point out that this statements came from X source, right? Like "According to an interview with ''JeuxOnLine'', the developers set...".--[[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 20:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I am stopping here and I am afraid opposing. There is clearly a FA worthy article in there, but I don't think this is it - the amount of work being done or flagged up is beyond what is reasonable at FAC. It is a pity that it didn't attract more input at PR, and it would IMO benefit from both a visit to GoCE and the input of a FAC mentor. [[User:Gog the Mild|Gog the Mild]] ([[User talk:Gog the Mild|talk]]) 15:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

:A FAC mentor seems like overkill, but I understand this candidacy could fail and how going through GoCE could be helpful. I do appreciate you taking the time to start a review and have a few questions. Firstly, would you mind if I addressed your comments up to the end of the "Setting and genre" subsection and asked for a few clarifications? 
::Of course not, including continuing off-Wiki if it comes to that.
Secondly, as you commented on "the amount of work being done or flagged up", are the lede and "Gameplay" sections up to FA standards? 
::Wrap up my comments, and anyone else's, for those two sections, let me know and I'll go through and give you my opinion. [[User:Gog the Mild|Gog the Mild]] ([[User talk:Gog the Mild|talk]]) 18:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
[[User:PanagiotisZois|PanagiotisZois]] ([[User talk:PanagiotisZois|talk]]) 17:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

====Coord note====
I think it's time to close this and continue work outside FAC, ideally with further input from [[User:TheJoebro64|Joe]] and [[User:Gog the Mild|Gog]], before looking at another nom after the usual 2-week hiatus. Cheers, [[User:Ian Rose|Ian Rose]] ([[User talk:Ian Rose|talk]]) 22:56, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

{{FACClosed|archived}} [[User:Ian Rose|Ian Rose]] ([[User talk:Ian Rose|talk]]) 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC){{Fa bottom}}