View source for Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Voyage of the Damned (Doctor Who)/archive1

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:''The following is an archived discussion of a [[Wikipedia:featured article candidates|featured article nomination]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in [[Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates]]. No further edits should be made to this page.''

The article was '''not promoted''' 18:03, 4 April 2008.
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===[[Voyage of the Damned (Doctor Who)]]===



I'm nominating this article for featured article. This article, possibly not taking into account the prose, is, in my opinion, better than {{la|Doomsday (Doctor Who)}} (which I also wrote), which [[Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates/archive26#Comprehensive|was given as a good example of an episode FA]]. The prose may trip up, but other than that, it's fine. '''[[User:Sceptre|Will]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 15:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
:Fantastically written, but why is there no image in the infobox? --[[User:Hemlock Martinis|Hemlock Martinis]] ([[User talk:Hemlock Martinis|talk]]) 18:18, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
::Someone moved it from the top to the criticism section (where it originally was). I originally had a caption which give equal weight to the plot and the e criticism. '''[[User:Sceptre|Will]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 18:41, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
:::I agree that the angel image belongs in the criticism section, but I would still like to see a picture in the infobox since all other Doctor Who articles have one. How about a screenshot of the ''Titanic''? --[[User:Hemlock Martinis|Hemlock Martinis]] ([[User talk:Hemlock Martinis|talk]]) 18:52, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
::::Might work. Do you reckon it'd still be minimal usage? '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 21:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
:::::How does it look? '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 13:08, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
::::::Looks well written.  I'll '''support'''. '''[[User:Meldshal42|<span style="color:green;">Meldshal42</span>]]'''[[User_talk:Meldshal42|<sub style="color:blue;">Comments and Suggestions</sub>]][[Special:Contributions/Meldshal42|<sup style="color:red;">My Contributions</sup>]] 18:31, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

*'''Support''' Looking nice :) A few suggestions, keeping in mind I've only ever watched about 30 seconds of a Doctor Who episode:
**''72 minutes long and was broadcast'' - "was first broadcast"?
**''writing and Minogue's performance both criticised and praised'' - makes sense to me to put praised first, but that's probably me being OCD-ish.
**I'm not quite sure why there are two preceding episodes in the infobox - ?
**''The News of the World initially reported... Davies initially dismissed the story'' - consecutive sentences both use "initially".
**''The scene aboard the Titanic required at least fifty extras'' - source?
**''Gardner, Collinson, and Davies all liked the design of the "strut" set, the bridge over the engine, and felt that the CGI further complemented it.'' - again, source, especially as there's a quote in use.
**''The high viewing figures resulted in Eastenders and "Voyage of the Damned" were the most-watched programmes of 2007, respectively'' - doesn't make sense. "...resulted in ... becoming" or "being named", something like that.
**''1912 Titanic sinking, who stated it was'' - "that it was".
**''For the most part, The Voyage of the Damned is absolutely smashing'' - put episode title in 'quote within a quote' apostrophe-thingies.
**''ticks boxes in all of our main categories [gruesome, scary, self-sacrifice, tearjerking, surprising]'' - maybe put the categories in [(square and round brackets)] because just square implies that it is part of the actual statement... if that makes sense!
**You may want to make some kind of distinction between the British and Australian Daily Telegraphs.
*Otherwise, good stuff, hope that helps, and I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help with the in-universe bits - I drifted off a little there. :) —<span style="font-family:georgia;">[[User:Redl@nds597198|<span style="color:#FF3300;"><b>97198</b></span>]] <small>[[User talk:Redl@nds597198|<span style="color:#000000;">talk</span>]]</small></span> 10:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
*:Done all :) '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 14:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
*<s>'''Support'''</s> A comprehensive, well referenced article. <s>Try to keep the cite templates on one line 'cause it's easier to keep track of them.</s> One thing I picked up: ''Filming took part summer of 2007...'' ? Filming took ''place''? [[User:The JPS|<span style="color:purple;">The <b>JP</b>S</span>]][[User talk:The JPS|'''<sup style="color:purple;"><b>talk</b> to me</sup>''']] 12:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
**No, please do '''''NOT''''' try to keep cite templates on one line; they become utterly un-editable, so your statement (easier to keep track of) is quite contradictory. I have undone that portion of your formatting. And since the wikisource is unvisible to the reader, it should not bare any weight in this discussion. <span style="font-family: verdana;"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color: #008;">'''''E''dokter'''</span>]] • [[User_talk:Edokter|<span style="color: #080;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 13:53, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
**I did not intend that comment to be part of my criteria for assessing this, (although FAC does consider some formatting issues that are "unvisible" to the reader), but as a result of the tone of your reply I am withdrawing my support. [[User:The JPS|<span style="color:purple;">The <b>JP</b>S</span>]][[User talk:The JPS|'''<sup style="color:purple;"><b>talk</b> to me</sup>''']] 14:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
***"Consider the content, not the person". I think you should look within yourself what your real criteria are. My apologies if I came off harch,  but if someone messes up the formatting for no good reason, I tend to get a little annoyed. <span style="font-family: verdana;"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color: #008;">'''''E''dokter'''</span>]] • [[User_talk:Edokter|<span style="color: #080;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 14:37, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
****The formatting was not messed up. It was changed to a format which you don't like. Since I don't edit this article, I don't care. The cite templates are not a criteria for FA, so neither is the formatting. As I have explained, I was making a supplementary comment. I was offended by your response to my good faith comments and changes, particularly your unnecessary confrontational emboldening and capitailsation. I appreciate that FAC can be stressful, which is why I commenced my comment by commending the article. However, I thank you for your apology.  [[User:The JPS|<span style="color:purple;">The <b>JP</b>S</span>]][[User talk:The JPS|'''<sup style="color:purple;"><b>talk</b> to me</sup>''']] 16:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
{{hidden |headercss=background:#E9EFEF; border:1px 1px solid #96FFA8; |contentcss=border:1px 1px solid #96FFA8;|header=Resolved comments by [[User:The JPS|<span style="color:purple;">The <b>JP</b>S</span>]][[User talk:The JPS|'''<sup style="color:purple;"><b>talk</b> to me</sup>''']] 16:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC) |content=
*<s>'''Object'''</s>
**''Filming took part summer of 2007...'' ? Filming took ''place''?
**Needless redirects, re ''The News of the World'' is an inaccurate title of the publication. My fix was reverted. [[User:The JPS|<span style="color:purple;">The <b>JP</b>S</span>]][[User talk:The JPS|'''<sup style="color:purple;"><b>talk</b> to me</sup>''']] 14:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
***The fix was caught in my revert. Both fixed. <span style="font-family: verdana;"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color: #008;">'''''E''dokter'''</span>]] • [[User_talk:Edokter|<span style="color: #080;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 14:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
***I've fixed two redirects that went to the wrong place: [[Royal Family]] and [[The Mirror]]. The rest, I'm leaving; redirects are cheap, and it's more strain on the server to fix the redirects than for the server to redirect you via a link. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 14:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)}}
*'''Comment''' 
:* An image caption should only end with a full-stop if it forms a complete sentence. 
:*:Where's the objectionable caption? '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 20:18, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
:*::The second one. [[User:Epbr123|Epbr123]] ([[User talk:Epbr123|talk]]) 20:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
:*:::Done. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 21:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
:* Spaced en dashes should be used in the infobox, rather than em dashes.
:* "took place in Summer 2007" - capital not needed
:* Logical quotation should be used, ie:
::*''"It was boring, despite the endless dashing about and CGI flimflam".'' - period belongs inside the quote if present in the original text
::*''lamented that "the plot was a mess, consisting mostly of one hi-tech chase scene after another, and it descended into noise and bluster.".'' - period only needed outside the quote. [[User:Epbr123|Epbr123]] ([[User talk:Epbr123|talk]]) 20:00, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
::*:Done except the first; '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 20:18, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
::*::All fixed. [[User:Epbr123|Epbr123]] ([[User talk:Epbr123|talk]]) 22:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

* '''Comments''' 
{{hidden|contentstyle=border:1px solid #C4C3D0; |headerstyle=color:white; background:#C4C3D0; |header= Issues resolved, [[User:Ealdgyth|Ealdgyth]] - [[User talk:Ealdgyth|Talk]] 21:40, 29 March 2008 (UTC)|content=
** Okay, I'm not a Who fan, so is http://www.gallifreyone.com/index.php generally a reliable site for news and other information?
** Not being up on UK sci-fi site, what makes http://www.syfyportal.com/ reliable?
**  CUrrent ref 34 (Shelly, Jim "East Enders saves the day ") is lacking publisher information
}}
** http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=161366&command=displayContent&sourceNode=232789&home=yes&more_nodeId1=161375&contentPK=19280855 goes to a blank page for me.
: All other links check out fine with the link tool. [[User:Ealdgyth|Ealdgyth]] - [[User talk:Ealdgyth|Talk]] 14:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
*:Outpost Gallifrey is a reliable source. It's been held up in many discussions. They do check their facts thoroughly or simply aggregate.
*:The Mirror ref has been fixed.
*:The SyFy Portal story aggregates the (reliable) Paisley Daily Express.
*:The Swansea reference yields a blank page for me too. What's more frustrating that the news story has been [[junking|junked]], and I can't find another source. Might exist in DWC '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 15:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
:::Checking back in here, any progress on the Swansea ref? [[User:Ealdgyth|Ealdgyth]] - [[User talk:Ealdgyth|Talk]] 16:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
::::Unfortunately, no. OG didn't aggregate. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup>
'''Oppose'''  The prose isn't up to standard and I've made some suggestions. [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Voyage_of_the_Damned_%28Doctor_Who%29&diff=202592622&oldid=202324231]. I suggest [[User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a|Tony]]'s advice is followed.--[[User:GrahamColm|Graham<span style="color:red;">Colm</span>]][[User talk:GrahamColm|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 17:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
:Examples of where it's bad, please? '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 13:54, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
**Taken at random from the Lead: ''Another scene, filmed on a set labelled by the production team as the best set they had made, featured composer Murray Gold, conductor and orchestrator Ben Foster, and singer Yamit Mamo, three people involved in producing the music of the episode, performing "The Stowaway", a song written specially for the episode.'' - labelled, set, set, episode, episode.
**''Astrid, who joined to travel throughout the stars, is disappointed, because she is not given shore leave.'' - joined what.
**''The production team gave her a one-off companion role, before Davies had finished the script.'' - one-off companion role?
**''Filming was delayed in July to attend his mother's funeral'' ?
**''The song features everyone who was present in the studios during recording as backing vocals.'' - vocalists?[[User:GrahamColm|Graham<span style="color:red;">Colm</span>]][[User talk:GrahamColm|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 16:17, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
***The first, third, and fourth have been fixed, easy enough. The problem I'm having with the second is that, in terms of Doctor Who, a companion is the second (third, or fourth) lead role, and has nothing to do with their number of appearances: [[Grace Holloway]] is officially regarded as a companion, despite only having appeared in one story ([[Enemy Within|the TV movie]]), and so was [[Donna Noble]] before she was confirmed for the fourth series. I've reworded that sentence with a link to [[Companion (Doctor Who)|Companion]], though. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 16:31, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''', 1a.  I'm a little concerned that this article is here since it was recently delisted from GA status and then got only a nominal peer review.  It is an interesting article&mdash;I'll be watching the show after reading it&mdash;but the prose is not up to FA standard.  Please get a thorough copyedit by an uninvolved editor.  If this nomination does not pass, please get a substantive peer review.  Some example problems follow:
** "The Doctor teams up with waitress Astrid Peth to prevent the ship colliding with the Earth..."  Prefer "prevent the ship ''from''..."
*** I'm afraid the new sentence introduces another error.  It can't be "prevented from a collision". --[[User:Laser_brain|<span style="color:purple;">'''Laser brain'''</span>]] [[User_talk:Laser_brain|<span style="color:purple;">(talk)</span>]] 03:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
** <s>"It was the second most-watched programme of 2007 in Britain, beaten only by the immediately following episode of EastEnders."  Do you mean EastEnders immediately followed in the rankings or in the television schedule?  As written, could be either or both.</s>
** <s>"Critical reception over the episode was divided, with the writing and Minogue's performance both praised and criticised."  Perhaps: "Critics' opinions on the episode were divided.  Some praised the writing and Minogue's performance while others criticised them."</s>
** The prose in the Plot synopsis is not up to standard.  There are many rambling sentences, punctuation and grammar errors, and plot elements listed without context or explanation.  I've tried to call out examples below, but the section needs copyediting.
** "The Doctor soon learns the ship is a replica of the Earth ocean liner from the planet Sto" As written, reads like the Earth ocean liner is from Sto, not the replica.
*** Still confusing. --[[User:Laser_brain|<span style="color:purple;">'''Laser brain'''</span>]] [[User_talk:Laser_brain|<span style="color:purple;">(talk)</span>]] 03:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
**** How does it look now?
** <s>"Astrid, who joined to travel throughout the stars..."  If her motivation was to see planets, as suggested in the next phrase, you should state that more clearly.</s>
*** Specific phrase was "travel through the stars", if I remember correctly.
** <s>"...an alien with a spiked red head called Bannakaffalatta..."   ''named''</s>
** <s>"However, London was evacuated after the general populace fled in fear of an a third consecutive extra-terrestrial attack, after the events of 'The Christmas Invasion' and 'The Runaway Bride', and only a few people remain, including the Royal Family and a newspaper seller called Wilfred Mott (Bernard Cribbins)."  This is too long and rambling to follow.  The populace fled and then the city was evacuated? </s>
** "Concurrently, on the Titanic's bridge, Captain Hardaker (Geoffrey Palmer) dismisses all his officers."  Why?
*** Still needs clarity.  "...dismisses all his officers to commit an act of sabotage..."?  --[[User:Laser_brain|<span style="color:purple;">'''Laser brain'''</span>]] [[User_talk:Laser_brain|<span style="color:purple;">(talk)</span>]] 03:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
**** That's the reason why. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 04:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
** <s>"Hardaker then commits an act of sabotage;" Colon, not semicolon, and capitalize next phrase.</s>
** <s>"The resulting collision kills Hardaker, and most of the passengers on-board, and the Titanic's engines start to fail, drawing the ship to an extinction level collision with Earth." Stylistic but ungrammatical commas, too long.  "Start to fail" is not an ideal expression. </s>
***Old version.
** <s>"The Doctor makes contact with Frame to help him stabilise the ship, and then leads a small group of survivors to reach him." Stylistic comma. (Yes I could just fix it, but I'm identifying it so you can look for the rest.)</s>
** <s>"Complicating matters are the Host, information androids resembling angels, who were programmed to kill everyone on board."  Passive, confusing.</s>
** <s>The party ''is'' attacked.. then the party ''are'' attacked.  One or the other please - you have used the British-English penchant for treating collective nouns as plurals through the rest of the article.</s>
*** Should be plural, yes.
** <s>"Morvin falls into the engines, and Foon commits suicide while pulling one of the Host with her."  Pulling one of the Host with her where?</s>
** <s>Capricorn is the cruise line owner or the former owner?  You say he was forced out.</s>
** <s>"The Doctor, assuming control of the Host, uses them to make his way to the bridge." Perhaps: "The Doctor assumes control of the Host and uses them..."</s>
** <s>"In mid-descent, he realises the ship is heading towards Buckingham Palace, but re-assumes control of the ship seconds before collision."  I thought he already had control of the ship?  When did he lose it, requiring him to "re-assume" it?</s>
** <s>"Before leaving in the TARDIS, the Doctor allows him to build a new life, funded by the ship's expenses card."  What ship?  The TARDIS or the ''Titanic''?</s>
** <s>"Another recurring theme present in the episode is angels, which previously occurred in "Blink", where the antagonists of the episode were Weeping Angels, and in 'The Sound of Drums' and 'Last of the Time Lords', where the Master's communication network was called the 'Archangel Network'."  Simply exhausting!</s>
***Old version.
** <s>"Despite angels being the antagonist in two episodes that aired close to each other, which slightly annoyed Davies when he read Steven Moffat's script for 'Blink', the Host are functionally different as subordinate 'robot butlers'." We've not mentioned Davies thus far.  Full name and context needed.</s>
** <s>"The production team gave her a one-off companion role, before Davies had finished the script." No comma.</s>
** <s>"The scene aboard the Titanic, filmed at The Exchange in Swansea, required at least fifty extras..."  Thoughts on wikilinking "extras"?  Not sure everyone knows that term.</s>
** <s>The Writing and filming section needs renaming and chronological organization.  It talks about sets, which are not part of the writing or filming process.  There are too many sentences that begin with "So-and-so liked..."  Talk about writing and set-building first then filming and post-production.</s>
***Massive reorganisation
** <s>"The high viewing figures resulted in Eastenders and "Voyage of the Damned" were the most-watched programmes of 2007, respectively."  Rewrite.</s>
** <s>"The viewing figure is the highest for the new series, exceeding the previous record set by 'Rose', and the highest for Doctor Who overall since 1979: specifically, the final episode of 'City of Death', which aired while rival network ITV suffered programming disruptions."  Way too long, colon used incorrectly.</s>
** <s>"Before its broadcast, the episode was criticised by Millvina Dean..." How did she criticize it before it was broadcast?</s>
***The Titanic storyline was well known before the episode aired. As in, the beginning of July. I'd say it was a knee-jerk reaction on Dean's part.
--[[User:Laser_brain|<span style="color:purple;">'''Laser brain'''</span>]] [[User_talk:Laser_brain|<span style="color:purple;">(talk)</span>]] 17:04, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
***I've replied to concerns where it shouldn't/can't be fixed, but for the most part, done. Incidentally, you're using an old version. Besides, in the last few peer reviews I've requested, I just got the bot and no-one else. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 17:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
**** That'll teach me for clicking "Edit" and then taking three hours to type out my comments.  Much improved, overall, but could use a third pair of eyes.  Peer review has been vastly improved recently with the addition of the [[Wikipedia:Peer review/volunteers|volunteer list]].  I've seen a [[Wikipedia:Peer review/List of The Bellflower Bunnies episodes/archive1|list of episodes]] of an obscure French-Canadian television show get several substantive reviews. --[[User:Laser_brain|<span style="color:purple;">'''Laser brain'''</span>]] [[User_talk:Laser_brain|<span style="color:purple;">(talk)</span>]] 03:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
*****Incidentally, the episode and its respective ''Confidential'' episode aired earlier tonight.  I missed the first 30 minutes of the episode, but I was able to record the Confidential episode to do some clarifications. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 04:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> No further edits should be made to this page.''</div><!--FAbottom--><!--Tagged by FA bot-->