View source for Wikipedia:Featured article review/Dietrich v The Queen/archive2

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:''The following is an archived discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Featured article review|featured article review]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at [[Wikipedia talk:Featured article review]]. No further edits should be made to this page.''

The article was '''delisted''' by [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] via [[User:FACBot|FACBot]] ([[User talk:FACBot|talk]]) 3:35, 22 January 2022 (UTC) [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?oldid=1065701643&diff=1067170237&title=Wikipedia%3AFeatured_article_review%2FDietrich_v_The_Queen%2Farchive2].
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===[[Dietrich v The Queen]]===


<!-- Please don't edit anything above here. Be sure to include your reasons for nominating below. -->
:<small>''Notified: [[User talk:Stephen Bain|Stephen Bain]], [[User talk:Bilby|Bilby]], [[WT:AUS]], [[WT:LAW]], [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dietrich_v_The_Queen&diff=1048989519&oldid=979174911 diff of talk-page notice 10-09-2021]''</small>
====Review section====
This is a 2005 promotion (last reviewed in 2009) that does not seem to meet the modern featured article criteria, particularly with respect to sourcing and comprehensiveness. Firstly, I'm not sure it's a "thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature": there are plenty of scholarly articles and books that aren't cited, e.g. [https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/qutljrnl13&div=18&id=&page=], [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/1323238X.1994.11910920], [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Retreat_from_Injustice/_43QFgpjjOgC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=legal+aid+in+australia+dietrich&pg=PA228&printsec=frontcover], pgs. 95–98 of [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Justice_Lionel_Murphy/kRKavVokbq4C], and pg. 150 of [https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Cambridge_Handbook_of_Australian_Cri/bZToSyd3zRIC], for no apparent reason. This might be excusable if the article was already very comprehensive, but it isn't: most obviously, one would expect an article about a legal case to walk through the the various opinions rendered in some detail, but the opinions of Mason/McHugh and Toohey aren't even mentioned and the rest of the "Judgment" section takes only a very cursory look at the legal reasoning. We also get very little about the [[High Court of Australia#Mason court: 1987–1995|historical context in which this case was decided]] or the legal context (e.g. previous/subsequent Australian fair-trial cases) in which it arose. The sourcing that does exist consists mainly of either citations to [[WP:PRIMARY|primary sources]], such as the case itself, and newspaper articles that offer little legal analysis; the few scholarly sources used are used sparingly. Since the article hasn't been edited once since notice of these concerns was given almost two months ago, I think its featured article status should be reviewed. [[User:Extraordinary Writ|Extraordinary Writ]] ([[User talk:Extraordinary Writ|talk]]) 01:12, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
*'''Move to FARC''' - basically no engagement. [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]] <sub> ''[[User talk:Hog Farm|Talk]]''</sub> 14:26, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
* '''Move to FARC''' — no improvements, ([https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Dietrich_v_The_Queen&type=revision&diff=1060062111&oldid=1058205413 difference since nomination]). I agree with concerns regarding comprehensiveness. – [[User:Kavyansh.Singh|Kavyansh.Singh]] ([[User talk:Kavyansh.Singh|talk]]) 14:57, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
*'''Move to FARC''' – concerns remain unaddressed. [[User:Extraordinary Writ|Extraordinary Writ]] ([[User talk:Extraordinary Writ|talk]]) 23:35, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
**While I appreciate the effort, I do still believe this needs to go to FARC. In addition to the many stylistic issues that Sandy has mentioned below, my original concerns about sourcing and comprehensiveness haven't really been addressed. The article continues to rely very heavily on [[WP:PRIMARY|primary sources]] (giving rise to synthesis and other [[WP:OR|OR]] issues), and several cn tags remain extant. The sources I mentioned above haven't been incorporated into the article, and there's still only minimal discussion about the judgment and the broader historical/legal context. I think the article would probably need to be rewritten from the ground up if it were to be brought back to FA-level. [[User:Extraordinary Writ|Extraordinary Writ]] ([[User talk:Extraordinary Writ|talk]]) 20:50, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
**:Yep.  [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]])  21:06, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - I will work on the concerns over the next few days and see whether or not we can keep the article as WP:FA. It is a really important case in Australia, and influential worldwide. I feel it still comes close to meeting modern featured article criteria. It's well written, comprehensive, and has solid referencing. I concede however it could do with a review, I will take a look. [[User:Such-change47|Such-change47]] ([[User talk:Such-change47|talk]]) 00:47, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
::{{reply to|Extraordinary Writ}} I have made subtantial changes already, significant inclusion of a few journal articles, re-wrote the introduction, expanded most sections and also the entire thing needed re-formatting with proper headings. Personlly I feel it's looking significnantly better, but I will keep at it over the weekend. We have very few legal articles as FA, I am keen to help this one stay FA!. Cheers [[User:Such-change47|Such-change47]] ([[User talk:Such-change47|talk]]) 13:31, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
::: {{ping|Such-change47}} - I see at least part of your additions have been removed by {{u|Diannaa}} as copyright violations.  Do NOT add copyright violations, especially not to a FA. [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]] <sub> ''[[User talk:Hog Farm|Talk]]''</sub> 15:52, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
:::::{{re|Hog Farm}} - wow. It's a few sentences, that I paraphrased, not closely, and provided an attribution for. There is no way i violated cooyright and this person has done this before to someone else, for copying from a court judgement which certainly is not copyright. Thousands of words i added still stand luckily. I read the copyright warning and policy really carefully. I have not breached it, and the reverter accused me of copying, which is different from paraphrasing. I am well aware that even a vandal would stand less chance of a permanent block than a copyright violator, so i take it very seriously. [[User:Such-change47|Such-change47]] ([[User talk:Such-change47|talk]]) 19:16, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
:::::: I'll do a source-article comparison myself later tonight, but given that Diannaa is one of our very best copyright editors, I'm inclined to trust their judgment (and yes, I can see the text added in the deleted revision, as I am an administrator). [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]] <sub> ''[[User talk:Hog Farm|Talk]]''</sub> 19:27, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
:::::::It is my understanding that court cases are public domain; can we do some further checking on this?  {{u|Diannaa}} ??  I can't see the deleted text ... [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]])  20:54, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
::::::::Australian copyright law is ''way'' out of my comfort zone, but I would guess that they're protected by [[crown copyright]]. (That's assuming that it was only the court case that was used: the [http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/QUTLawJl/1997/16.pdf journal article] Diannaa mentioned is certainly not public-domain.) [[User:Extraordinary Writ|Extraordinary Writ]] ([[User talk:Extraordinary Writ|talk]]) 21:00, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::Ah, thanks; I could not see the edit. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]])  21:04, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::: {{ec}} This is a Crown Copyright situation.  The removed material was from a block quote within the linked article, quoting the decision ''[[New South Wales v Canellis]]''.  Even if not copyrighted, it is problematic, as the direct quote taken from the court's decision was given in wikivoice with a citation to the decision itself, with no indication that it was quoted material at all. [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]] <sub> ''[[User talk:Hog Farm|Talk]]''</sub> 21:09, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::In Australia, the Crown owns the copyright on government works (including court cases). They are protected by copyright for 50 years from publication. Many works are released under a Attribution 3.0 Australia (CC BY 3.0 AU)] license, but this one is not.— [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 22:24, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::{{re|Hog Farm}} You are totally right, Diannaa is the expert, I was wrong. i am going to quick-sharp get used to the difference between my usual academic/legal writing where attribution is all that is quired to prevent academic misconduct, and the high copyright standards of Wikipedia. {{re|diannaa}} gave me some great tools. I will 1, take even more care and 2 after carefully drafting to ensure i steer clear of breach, use her tools to compare my work and self check for breaches to ensure i do not get flagged again. Thanks to both. [[User:Such-change47|Such-change47]] ([[User talk:Such-change47|talk]]) 13:27, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

{{u|Such-change47}}, happy to see your continued work!  Do you believe this star is salvageable with time, or should we proceed to the FARC phase (which does not preclude additional work)?  [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]])  18:23, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
: Hi {{re|SandyGeorgia}} Having assessed the criteria i think the article has already been saved. I have added 20-30% more to the article, it has had a thorough review, journal articles added...i will continue but my thought is that its safe to stay FA. Note, i did not create this article, no vested interest in it staying. It is just that there are barely any law featured articles at all. Let us keep this one. [[User:Such-change47|Such-change47]] ([[User talk:Such-change47|talk]]) 22:12, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
::OK, thanks for the response and the effort!  I won't be able to review until after Christmas ... [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]])  22:41, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
:::Anytime {{re|Sandy}}, a pleasure to help contribute in this way! [[User:Such-change47|Such-change47]] ([[User talk:Such-change47|talk]]) 23:02, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

* A copyedit/jargon check will be needed, attention to Wikilinking is needed, and [[MOS:LQ]] and [[MOS:ITALICS]] reviews are needed, but before that is done, I cannot make heads nor tails of the citation method, which seems to be an unnecessary mix of three different methods, with errors.  {{u|DrKay}} might you have a look?  I still don’t speak sfns well enough to know what’s wrong here.
*: I believe I have cleaned up the citation errors (removing some instances of original research in the process). [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]])  01:07, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
* Such-change47, have a look at [[WP:WIAFA]], 2b; I consolidated the short choppy sections.
* In the “Subsequent issues” section, we have Dietrich changing his name to Hugo Rich … but the image placed well earlier in the article is confusing, as we don’t know at that point that he changed his name.  Also, were his further convictions as Dietrich or as Hugo Rich?
* “remaining condoms came out during the night” … ?  
* The [[WP:LEAD]] could benefit from expansion.
* See [[MOS:ELLIPSES]].
* How is "serious offence" defined?
* The text at the top of the High Court appeal (see [[WP:MSH]]) section is uncited, but seems to come from [https://web.archive.org/web/20091010062118/http://epublications.bond.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1068&context=blr here.]  How is that not copyvio?
** {{ping|SandyGeorgia}} - The two bullet points and the sentence beginning "The Court allowed the appeal," is definitely copyvio, the rest of that chunk is either fine or from something else, so far as I can tell.  The source is definitely in copyright, as it contains a copyright notice from 1992 and there is no evidence of a release here.  {{@FAR}}, I really think that this should be considered for a move to FARC, given that there have already been two instances of copyright violations noted.  This can be reworked and taken to FAC again, but I'm not sure that FAR is a great place to be trying to clean copyright violations out. [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]] <sub> ''[[User talk:Hog Farm|Talk]]''</sub> 04:14, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
*** I've removed the copyvio and applied revision deletion, unfortunately the recent page history is a bit of a mess now; ping me if you have questions about any of the deleted diffs. [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]] <sub> ''[[User talk:Hog Farm|Talk]]''</sub> 04:20, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
***:Troubling.  Thanks for doing all that work, HF. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]])  05:09, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
* As {{u|Extraordinary Writ}} mentions, the list of sources has not been incorporated, so the article still fails 1b, and relies heavily on the Court decision, without analysis.
[[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]])  21:10, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

: It has a fair use image, which {{u|Nikkimaria}} might need to check. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]])  20:25, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
::Is this person still living? [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 20:38, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
:::The article does not say he has died, and [https://www.3aw.com.au/sly-of-the-underworld-what-happened-to-the-impeccably-dressed-killer/ this seems to indicate he has not]. (Should we be incorporating the Hugo Boss info?) [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]])  21:08, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
::::Non-free images are harder to justify for living people, since it would be theoretically possible for a new one to be created or for them to release one. Given that, I would want to see a stronger FUR. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 21:37, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
I agree with the three '''Move to FARC'''s above. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]])  22:49, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

====FARC section====
:''Issues raised in the review section include sourcing and copyvio. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 15:57, 3 January 2022 (UTC)''
*'''Delist'''. Tagged for unsourced statements. [[User:DrKay|DrKay]] ([[User talk:DrKay|talk]]) 13:06, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
*'''Delist''' – I appreciate the work that's been done to improve the article, but at the end of the day the sourcing/comprehensiveness concerns still remain, per my comments above. [[User:Extraordinary Writ|Extraordinary Writ]] ([[User talk:Extraordinary Writ|talk]]) 20:15, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
* '''Delist''', Extraordinary Writ sums it up. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]])  19:07, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
*'''Delist''' per EW. [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]] <sub> ''[[User talk:Hog Farm|Talk]]''</sub> 21:04, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
{{FARClosed|delisted}} [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 03:35, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> No further edits should be made to this page.''</div><!--FAbottom-->