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= February 20 =

== British casualties on the Western Front of World War II ==

Are there any sources about the losses of Great Britain on the Western Front of World War II? It's just that the number of 40 thousand given in the article looks underestimated [[User:Lone Ranger1999|Lone Ranger1999]] ([[User talk:Lone Ranger1999|talk]]) 08:00, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
:Didn't you ask this already? <-[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]-> 08:35, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
::From an article about the Western Front of WWII [[Western Front (World War II)]], and 41 thousand killed (11 thousand killed in 1939-1941, and 30 thousand in 1944-1945) sounds somehow strange. Great Britain lost 384 thousand soldiers, did Great Britain lose the remaining 340 thousand in Italy, the Balkans, Africa, the Atlantic and the Pacific [[User:Lone Ranger1999|Lone Ranger1999]] ([[User talk:Lone Ranger1999|talk]]) 17:50, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
:{{u|Lone Ranger1999}}, it would help if you at least linked to the particular article you mean, so that we can see the context. That particular casualty figure ''might'' be mentioned in a fair number of articles.
:Have you considered that, between the [[Dunkirk evacuation]] and [[D-Day]], relatively few British land forces were fighting on the European Western Front (which did not include [[Italian campaign (World War II)|Italy]]). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/51.198.55.125|51.198.55.125]] ([[User talk:51.198.55.125|talk]]) 10:11, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
::Between Dunkirk and D-Day there simply was no Western Front at all. [[User:Dodger67|Roger (Dodger67)]] ([[User talk:Dodger67|talk]]) 10:31, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
::::There was the odd [[Commandos (United Kingdom)|Commando]] raid; presumably agents killed after being dropped into Nazi-occupied countries to help the local [[Resistance during World War II|Resistance]] forces would count; and most obviously there was the air battle, including the [[Battle of Britain]], which is why I said "few". {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/51.198.55.125|51.198.55.125]] ([[User talk:51.198.55.125|talk]]) 02:46, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
:::There were no set-piece land battles, but there was [[Operation Claymore]], the [[Allied occupation of Iceland]] etc. [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 16:12, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
::::Well, there were thousands of battles during World War II.  However, many of them did not occur on the [[Western Front (World War II)|Western Front]], among which those that did not include the Allied occupation of Iceland; Iceland not being on the Western Front.  However, there are some military operations noted at [[Western Front (World War II)#1941–1944: Interlude]] which the OP (or yourself) can peruse at your own leisure.  Operation Claymore was not noted there, though that section is not comprehensive, and does point to other articles that may cover it in more detail.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 16:35, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::The [[Dieppe Raid]] in 1942 (3,600 allied casualties, about 1,000 killed) is probably a better example, but I take your point. [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 18:46, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

== Invasions since WWII ==

Since WWII, how often has a country invaded another country, unprovoked and with the intent of annexing it or (a large) part of it? There is a [[List_of_invasions|List of invasions]], but most of those I don't know about and many that I do know about are not for the purpose of annexation, or just a small part, like an island for strategic purposes. Or it is part of an ongoing conflict, with disputed territories (eg the decolonisations after WWII). So a criterium is that the invaded country has to be at least recognised by the UN.<br>
The reason I ask is to ascertain how unique the invasion of Ukraine is. [[User:DirkvdM|DirkvdM]] ([[User talk:DirkvdM|talk]]) 14:42, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
:Does [[List of wars: 1945–1989]] and [[List of wars: 1990–2002]] and [[List of wars: 2003–present]] help your research?  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 14:46, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
::The lists of wars are even longer because they include civil wars, which most of them indeed are. Civil wars are more common than invasions, it seems (not surprisingly). [[User:DirkvdM|DirkvdM]] ([[User talk:DirkvdM|talk]]) 15:19, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
:::Obviously, and yet, it still provides a good resource for you to begin your own research into the topic, does it not?  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 16:39, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
:Ah, the annexation of Tibet by China is a good example, rather comparable to the invasion of Ukraine, because Tibet declared itself independent after the fall of the Qing dynasty, but I doon't know if this was internationally recognised.  [[User:DirkvdM|DirkvdM]] ([[User talk:DirkvdM|talk]]) 15:30, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
::Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in the summer of 1990 is a close comparable to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, but it's not the only one. See [[Iraqi invasion of Kuwait]]. [[User:Xuxl|Xuxl]] ([[User talk:Xuxl|talk]]) 15:36, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
:::Ah, thanks, that's a good one. [[User:DirkvdM|DirkvdM]] ([[User talk:DirkvdM|talk]]) 15:51, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
:Turkish Cyprus is also somewhat similar because it was an internal conflict after British rule ended, in which Turkey intervened. But was it already internationally recognised as one country? [[User:DirkvdM|DirkvdM]] ([[User talk:DirkvdM|talk]]) 15:51, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
::The [[Republic of Cyprus]] was [[London and Zürich Agreements|established as an independent state]] on 16 August 1960 and became a [[Member states of the United Nations#Current members|member of the United Nations]] on 20 September 1960, implying that it was then generally internationally recognized. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 23:55, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
:Actually, what I want to know is how uncommon these things have become. It is said that after WWII peace broke out, and apart from independence movements and civil wars this seems to hold true for most parts of the world.  [[User:DirkvdM|DirkvdM]] ([[User talk:DirkvdM|talk]]) 15:51, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
::DirkvdM -- In Europe after 1950, there was basically nothing until the break-up of Yugoslavia.  (There were the Soviet interventions in Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968, but they weren't classic invasions)... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 23:02, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
:::The break-up of Yugoslavia was not the result of another country invading, so that doesn't count. [[User:DirkvdM|DirkvdM]] ([[User talk:DirkvdM|talk]]) 09:54, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
One major problem with this question is that there is no definition of  "unprovoked and with the intent of annexing it or (a large) part of it."  Was China's attack on Vietnam in 1979 unprovoked? Did Russia's 2014 seizure of Crimea comprise the annexing of a '''large''' part of Ukraine? Such open-ended questions are not useful. [[User:DOR (HK)|DOR (ex-HK)]] ([[User talk:DOR (HK)|talk]]) 21:45, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
::Note that I placed 'large' between brackets because that is indeed vague. What I really meant was a seizure of land because of the land itself (or the inhabitants), not just for strategic purposes. But that is still vague, because one has to guess the intentions. The Chinese attack on Vietnam was part of an ongoing conflict (and a bloody complicated one at that) that China had already been involved in. And of course a case of decolonisation (or the aftermath of it). But the seizure of the Crimea ''does'' count because it is the size of a small country (although it was also for strategic purposes). [[User:DirkvdM|DirkvdM]] ([[User talk:DirkvdM|talk]]) 09:54, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
:[[Green March]], [[Indonesian invasion of East Timor]], [[Nagorno Karabakh]], [[Israeli war]]s, [[Kashmir conflict]] including Pakistan, India and China. --[[User:Error|Error]] ([[User talk:Error|talk]]) 01:39, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
:[[Falklands War]] --[[User:Error|Error]] ([[User talk:Error|talk]]) 01:41, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
::Most of those were part of, or the result of decolonisation. All very different situations, but without the (overseas) colonisation of European countries and the wave of decolonisation shortly after the WWII all that woud probably not have happened. The (de)colonisation made all those territories disputed. Unless of course the local population does not object to being a colony, which makes this more complicated.
::Nagorno Karabakh is a different in that if regarded as a colony it is not overseas. However, there was a breakoff from Russia, so in that sense similar. And it is a case of separationism, so in that sense an internal conflict. [[User:DirkvdM|DirkvdM]] ([[User talk:DirkvdM|talk]]) 09:54, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
:::The Falklands were uninhabited prior to their discovery by Europeans. The British case rested on the right of [[self-determination]] of the islanders. [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 14:09, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
::In a way, the Ukraine war is also the result of the colonization of [[New Russia]] (formerly part of the [[Crimean Khanate]]) by the Russian empire with Slavic, Jewish and Germanic populations. It was earlier colonized by the [[Golden Horde]], Greeks and several nomadic peoples. 
::Besides, war and invasion were known before European colonization. Often, colonizers just took sides in an existing war. It's a pattern seen since at least the Roman intervention in an Egyptian succession dispute.
:: --[[User:Error|Error]] ([[User talk:Error|talk]]) 13:04, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
::[[Iran–Iraq War]] was quite similar to the current Russia–Ukraine war I think, with Iraq seeking the success of separatists friendly to Iraq in the Iranian [[Khuzestan province]], possibly to later annex it. [[User:TryKid|TryKid]]&thinsp;<sup style="white-space:nowrap;">[''[[Special:Contributions/TryKid|dubious]] – [[User talk:TryKid|discuss]]'']</sup> 13:41, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

== What do YOU call "Arab empire"? ==
{{atop|request for opinion. --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 16:30, 20 February 2023 (UTC)}}
Hello.

I and {{ping|Srnec}} had a discussion at [[Talk:Arab empire#Which ones are called as such]]. In it, I argued that the [[Abbasid Caliphate]], the [[Fatimid Caliphate]], and the [[Ayyubid dynasty]]. My main point is that those three entities are considered by many people, whether it is the academic consensus or not, Arab. Srnec argues it is not the case, that I am the only one who has this common misconception.

So, I ask here: do you call those three entities "Arab empire" or something along those lines? [[User:Veverve|Veverve]] ([[User talk:Veverve|talk]]) 15:06, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
:I see that the [[Umayyad Caliphate]] is in [[Arab empire]], but [[Caliphate of Córdoba]] is not. You could argue whether it is an empire or not and how Arab it was.
::The caliphate had an ethnically, culturally, and religiously diverse society. A minority of ethnic Muslims of Arab descent occupied the priestly and ruling positions, another Muslim minority were primarily soldiers and muladi converts were found throughout society. Jews comprised about ten percent of the population: little more numerous than the Arabs and about equal in numbers to the Berbers. They were primarily involved in business and intellectual occupations. The Christian minority (Mozarabs) professed by and large the Visigothic rite. The Mozarabs were in a lower strata of society, heavily taxed with few civil rights and culturally influenced by the Muslims. Ethnic Arabs occupied the top of the social hierarchy; Muslims had a higher social standing than Jews, who had a higher social standing than Christians. Christians and Jews were considered dhimmis, required to pay jizya (a protection tax).
:There is a template with a list of states:
{{History of the Arab States}}
:--[[User:Error|Error]] ([[User talk:Error|talk]]) 16:05, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

:My gut feeling is basically what Srnec says. If someone could provide some sources, that would be great. [[User:AirshipJungleman29|~~ AirshipJungleman29]] ([[User talk:AirshipJungleman29|talk]]) 16:13, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

*The instructions at the top of this page say, among other things, "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate."  What I think is not relevant to the purpose of this board.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 16:30, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Alexander the Great ==

Looking at the map of Alexander's empire I'm left wondering why he didn't conquer [[Epirus]], [[Cyprus]], [[Bithynia]] and [[Pontos]], which were a lot closer to Macedonia than [[India]], which he tried to invade. I hope my question doesn't sound too stupid! Thank you! [[File:MacedonEmpire.jpg|thumb|upright=1.5|Map of Alexander's empire]] [[Special:Contributions/79.43.89.138|79.43.89.138]] ([[User talk:79.43.89.138|talk]]) 21:27, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
:Since we cannot know what was in his mind, the best we can do is guess, which isn't very useful. Maybe those places just weren't interesting enough. [[User:DOR (HK)|DOR (ex-HK)]] ([[User talk:DOR (HK)|talk]]) 21:46, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
:(ec) There was an attempt to conquer Bithynia under general [[Calas (general)|Calas]], but that failed. See also [[Bas of Bithynia]] and the reference given there. I guess Alexander was just too busy elsewhere to take care of that himself. --[[User:Wrongfilter|Wrongfilter]] ([[User talk:Wrongfilter|talk]]) 21:52, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

:Anatolia is mountainous, and some regions aren't too accessible by land.  I would guess that Alexander was focused on getting to the main regions of the Persian empire, and didn't care too much about leaving a few enclaves behind that couldn't seriously threaten his connection with Macedonia. [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 23:05, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

:According to [[Ancient_history_of_Cyprus#Hellenistic_period]], the Cypriots overthrew Persian control and helped Alexander in his further campaigns. So it seems that Cyprus didn't need conquering. --[[User:Amble|Amble]] ([[User talk:Amble|talk]]) 00:55, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

:Also, Pontus and Bithynia were not part of the [[Achaemenid Empire]].  Alexander's first two goals were unifying the Greek city states and conquering the [[Achaemenid Empire]], the traditional enemies of the Greeks.  He probably didn't conquer Epirus because they were his allies; the king of Epirus was [[Alexander I of Epirus]], both his uncle and brother-in-law.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 12:01, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
::Precisely. Anything that wasn't directly relevant to Greece or Persia wasn't relevant to his immediate goals. By the time he had subdued both, he was closer to India than to Epirus, and invading only one of those makes you sound like a mythological figure. [[User:AirshipJungleman29|~~ AirshipJungleman29]] ([[User talk:AirshipJungleman29|talk]]) 12:10, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
:::What about Laconia?  Was it an Alexandrian ally too?  There's nothing relevant in [[Laconia#Ancient history]].  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 21:09, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
::::See [[Battle of Megalopolis]], [[League of Corinth]], [[Antipater]], and [[Sparta#Hellenistic_and_Roman_Sparta]]. Sparta allied with the Persians against Alexander, but his general Antipater defeated them, after which Sparta was forced to join the League of Corinth, meaning that they became Alexander's allies and had to support his campaigns, but were in principle still independent. --[[User:Amble|Amble]] ([[User talk:Amble|talk]]) 22:49, 21 February 2023 (UTC)