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== Appropriate sources ==

Hello, I am pondering doing some work on these pages. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmet_Nazif_G%C3%BCnal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MNG_Group_of_Companies 

I have found the following sources. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/douggollan/2020/01/03/carlos-ghosns-private-jet-escape-could-impact-the-airplanes-owners/

https://observers.france24.com/en/20190815-killing-turkish-run-gold-mine-burkina-faso-tensions 

https://www.yenicaggazetesi.com.tr/burkina-fasoda-turk-maden-sirketine-karsi-isyan-245545h.htm 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/07/nissan-ex-chairman-carlos-ghosns-350000-getaway-flight.html 

https://www.bbc.com/turkce/haberler-turkiye-50983113

https://www.duvarenglish.com/environment/2020/05/26/company-building-hydroelectric-plant-in-artvin-breaching-environmental-rules-say-activists/ 

Are these sources permissible within this project, and what steps should I take to keep the POV neutral? 

Thanks [[User:GDX420|GDX420]] ([[User talk:GDX420|talk]]) 14:20, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
: Doug Gollan is a forbes contributor, which are considered unreliable. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 15:28, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
::OK, so if I understand this correctly, we think the Forbes piece is an unreliable source but the rest are OK to use? Is that the Gyst of it? Just want to check, I haven't actually done much editing in mainspace yet. Are there cases where sources are reliable for some things but not reliable for other things? [[User:GDX420|GDX420]] ([[User talk:GDX420|talk]]) 16:10, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
:::France24, BBC, and [[CNBC]] are solidly reliable sources for business info, not sure about the others. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 16:15, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
::: I would say that the [[BBC]], [[CNBC]] and [[France24]] are definitely reliable, I have no opinion on [[Yeniçağ]] or [https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazete_Duvar Gazete Duvar] [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 16:23, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
:::: OK, thanks. In terms of the live edits, I understand this is a touchy subject involving a living person and recent events. Given the public interest in the great [[Carlos Ghosn]] escape and the outrage over the recent spate of extrajudicial killings, do you think these edits might be better suited to a more senior Wikipedian? [[User:GDX420|GDX420]] ([[User talk:GDX420|talk]]) 16:39, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
::::: I would make the edits, but if editors push back against you discuss on the talk pages. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 17:02, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::: Understood. Thanks. [[User:GDX420|GDX420]] ([[User talk:GDX420|talk]]) 17:25, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
: [[Yeniçağ]] is described on Wikipedia as a Turkish nationalist newspaper. I wouldn't include that without attribution, but I don't speak Turkish so I can't say for certain. [[User:Anaglyphic|Anaglyphic]] ([[User talk:Anaglyphic|talk]]) 00:14, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
:: [[Hurriyet]] [https://www.hurriyet.com.tr/haberleri/yenicag-gazetesi describes it as] [[Kemalist]], and it appears to have had issues with the Erdogan government in recent years [https://www.cnnturk.com/video/turkiye/yenicag-gazetesine-boyle-saldirdilar], so it's not some government mouthpiece. However as someone with a familiarity of the british press I have an instinctive aversion to red tops, and conforming to that expectation much of their coverage (at least according to the auto-translated contents) seems pretty tabloidy. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 17:37, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== Left-wing or far-left party? ==

The party in question is the minor [[Workers' Front (Croatia)]] party. There aren't many sources about their position, here are some of them that were brought up:

*[https://books.google.com/books?id=NpbgDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT132 Routledge book from 2016 (Euroscepticism as a Transnational and Pan-European Phenomenon: The Emergence of a New Sphere of Oppositio)], they included the party under "Radical left parties"
*[https://balkaninsight.com/2018/08/10/poor-treatment-of-season-workers-on-the-croatian-coast-08-09-2018/ Balkan Insight, 2018], a [[Balkan Insight|regional news website]]. Quote: {{tq|"Workers’ Front, a radical left political party"}}
*[https://balkaninsight.com/2020/04/22/croatia-remembers-victims-of-wwii-jasenovac-camp/ Balkan Insight, 2020]. Quote: {{tq|"radical left-wing Radnicka Fronta (Workers’ Front) party"}}
*[https://www.index.hr/magazin/clanak/ljiljana-nikolovska-se-iz-sada-javila-videom-trazi-podrsku-za-svoju-stranku/2194553.aspx index.hr, 2020], a [[index.hr|Croatian news website]]. Quote (in Croatian): {{tq|"before the election she seeks support for the extreme left"}} (original:"pred izbore traži podršku za ekstremnu ljevicu") - the person that the article is talking about is a member of the party
*[https://www.jutarnji.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/pred-nama-su-najneizvjesniji-parlamentarni-izbori-u-povijesti-ovo-je-11-najvecih-okrsaja-15003011 Jutarnji.hr, 2020], a [[Jutarnji list|Croatian news website]]. Quote (in Croatian): ({{tq|"the extreme left like the Workers' Front"}} (original: "ekstremnu ljevicu poput Radničke fronte")
*[https://www.counterfire.org/articles/analysis/21384-radical-left-and-anti-capitalist-breakthrough-in-croatia-elections Counterfire.org, 2020], an analysis. Quote: {{tq|"openly anti-capitalist MP, Katarina Peović of the Workers’ Front, offers the far left a bridgehead in Croatia and the region"}}
*[https://internationalsocialist.net/en/2020/06/croatian-parliamentary-election/ International Socialist, 2020] - an interview with "young socialists from Zagreb". One of the persons being interviewed says for the party: {{tq|"Following its experience of its participation in the recent presidential elections, it has begun to move away from its more radical policies and street action in public towards a more reformist and populist presentation, which they believe will help it gain voter support from those looking for a new social-democratic position."}}
*[https://libertarijanska-ljevica.org/?p=67/ Libertarijanska ljevica], a Wordpress blog (in Croatian), that says that the party "gave up socialism" ("odustala od socijalizma"): ({{tq|"it is evident that these are not some radical leftists in the struggle for socialism"}} (original:"vidljivo je da nije riječ o nekim radikalnim ljevičarima u borbi za socijalizam")
* [https://www.glasistre.hr/izbori/ekskluzivno-za-glas-istre-/-ljiljana-nikolovska-650239 Glas Istre], an interview in a Croatian news website with a member of the party. I do not see what can be drawn from this, but it is listed as a source.

What is reliable of these for the party's position? [[User:Tezwoo|Tezwoo]] ([[User talk:Tezwoo|talk]]) 22:41, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
*Ignore the wordpress blog and the interviews. (It may be that the party is trying to rebrand, but it's up to third party sources to say whether that is effective or not). I would cite Balkan Insight and Routledge as the best of the sources offered here. I don't think counterfire is reliable for third party claims, it's clearly a far left activist website. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 23:50, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
==  https://int.nyt.com/ ==

What is it, and is it RS?[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:38, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
{{pb}}Are you getting
:<Error>
:<Code>AccessDenied</Code>
:<Message>Access Denied</Message>
:<RequestId>53B33BF47393755A</RequestId>
:<HostId>
:jxoR1Byt+ik8RJuhx+wkwfeMobIMKZFqCGRzGDIRkJqM3/D1ck0z6fgvr5fH0subPaNSVT4iNyY=
:</HostId>
:</Error>{{pb}}? [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:green">'''''S'''erial''</span>]][[Special:contributions/Serial Number 54129|<sup><span style="color:red;"> '''#'''</span></sup>]] 11:41, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

::Something like that, I should have linked to what is being used https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/7070-exhibit-final07072020/4b81216735f2203a08cb/optimized/full.pdf#page=1 my problem is I have no idea who is hosting this, as I just get that error message.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:43, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
:::H'mm, I don't know what the NYT has got to do with it (perhaps they combined them all?) but this appears to be a combination of the documents curremtly held on [http://www.mncourts.gov/Media/StateofMinnesotavThomasLane.aspx the Minnesota Judiciary site]. (See at the top of the pdf, "27-CR-20-12951" = "State vs. Thomas Kiernan Lane") [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:green">'''''S'''erial''</span>]][[Special:contributions/Serial Number 54129|<sup><span style="color:red;"> '''#'''</span></sup>]] 11:59, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
::::That is what I am concerned about, this looks like it may be trying to claim it is the NYT when it is not. It just all seems to be a collection of random tat.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:04, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

== An accessible list of prohibited sources ==
{{archive top|No chance of anything useful coming of this ranting.}}
I happened to notice on the last major Daily Mail RfC [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_220#Daily_Mail_RfC]](its wildly biased close which failed to reflect the debate goes without saying), that someone asked "Where one can find a list of other prohibited sources?" and received the reply that there wasn't one.

This is not simply unhelpful: it's disgraceful. Given that sources like the Mail are quite patently being banned (when one peels away the endless dissembling) on ideological grounds rather than on matters of accuracy, if Wikipedia is to at least make some claim to academic rigor (rather than the emotional relativism that bedevils it), a simple list of banned sources should be put together that can be regularly reviewed, and challenged where need be, and should be linked at the top of the Reliable Sources Noticeboard or similar. Given even formerly unquestionable sources such as The New York Times have recently begun printing opinion as fact, all sources obviously need greater scrutiny, but having a list that could pointed at would at least help in editing conflicts, particularly for new users. [[User:ClearBreeze|ClearBreeze]] ([[User talk:ClearBreeze|talk]]) 09:14, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
:{{ping|ClearBreeze}} To have a list of reliable or unreliable sources is asking for the card catalogue for the [[Library of Babel]].  It also opens up the problem of users saying "well this source isn't on the list so it's fine," and requiring an act of congress to prevent someone from citing yet another crackpot site.
:No.  With few notable exceptions (such as the blacklisted and depreciated cases at [[WP:RSP]]), sources are by default in a state of grey that depend entirely on context.  A book by a university professor on Biblical studies published by a university press might be perfectly reliable for theology but not biology.  A Twitter post by a celebrity might be worth citing for their birthdate but would be inappropriate for the shape of the earth.  What you're asking for is ultimately part of a perennial request that is profoundly ignorant of how much information exists in the world.
:Wikipedia doesn't claim to have academic rigor, [[WP:RSPWP|just the opposite]].  We're a general reference, not an academic source.  Also, your example of the New York Times doesn't quite hold up with [[WP:RSP#The_New_York_Times|assessments by this community]] or by [[Ad Fontes Media]].  [[User:Ian.thomson|Ian.thomson]] ([[User talk:Ian.thomson|talk]]) 09:29, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
*In addition to what others have said (it's not really possible to list ''every'' unusable source), reliability is contextual.  [[WP:RS/P]] is helpful in terms of giving a quick measure for very common sources, especially ones whose reliability people tend to over- or under-estimate, but ultimately editors need to understand [[WP:V]] and [[WP:RS]] so they can evaluate sources themselves. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 17:14, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
::: 1. Only a leftist would think WP:RSP balanced. Exactly the same claims against some of right-leaning sources labelled in light and medium pink could be said of left leaning publications – but where are those? Yes, there are certainly several unreliable sources there, but taken as a whole it reads like something assembled by 1st year university students with a grudge. Clicking through to the discussions reveals in many cases just a farago of leftist and often juvenile opinion.
2. Adfontesmedia is a reliable source? REALLY? Yes, context is everything: [[https://www.adfontesmedia.com/who-am-i-and-what-are-my-political-biases/]]
3. The NYTimes is certainly NOT a rock solid source any longer -- and as the NYPost points out, hasn't been since the Trump election.[[https://nypost.com/2020/07/11/ny-times-praises-cancel-culture-but-skips-its-own-racist-history-goodwin/]] Yes, that's a right leaning publication, but the observation that the Times has abandoned any claim to neutral reporting is one now widely made –– one that was only rarely made previously. The general claim was that it represented Liberal opinion, not that its reporting of events was distorted, which is what is being observed now. e.g. Click through to the NYPost link and again to its article and observations on how the Mt Rushmore speech was treated. [[User:ClearBreeze|ClearBreeze]] ([[User talk:ClearBreeze|talk]]) 15:21, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== AfterEllen ==
{{archive top|Non-admin close. There is general agreement that AfterEllen is reliable, but that it should be used with context.--[[User:Ozzie10aaaa|Ozzie10aaaa]] ([[User talk:Ozzie10aaaa|talk]]) 11:57, 30 July 2020 (UTC)}}

What is the reliability of [[AfterEllen]] news articles? From my own understanding AfterEllen does not identify as tabloid news, but I'm not sure how useful their articles are. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Speaker of Truth and Wisdom|Speaker of Truth and Wisdom]] ([[User talk:Speaker of Truth and Wisdom#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Speaker of Truth and Wisdom|contribs]]) </small>
: It's a lesbian focused pop-culture site, I think it is probably usable for pop-culture reviews, but I wouldn't use it in BLP articles, particularly as a source of sexual orientation. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 13:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
: Yes, it's a [[WP:Reliable source]]. Obviously. It also falls under [[WP:NEWSBLOG]]. And, yes, we use it for BLPs, especially for interviews with BLP subjects. All sources should be used with [[WP:CONTEXTMATTERS]] in mind. I believe that the above account saw my post [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=965575212 here] at the [[WP:BLP noticeboard]] and brought discussion of AfterEllen here. Not a coincidence. [[User:Flyer22 Frozen|Flyer22 Frozen]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Frozen|talk]]) 21:24, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
:: {{Ping|Flyer22 Frozen}} Simply asserting a source is "reliable" because it agrees with your position in a dispute is never a convincing argument. I was previously unaware of the transphobic context. Per [[WP:RSPMISSING]], not being on the perennial sources list does not mean that the source is reliable, it just reflects the relative obscurity of AfterEllen and therefore lack of discussion of it. Despite the lack of discussion it is suprisingly frequently used, with over 1,000 citations per {{duses|afterellen.com}}. AfterEllen fired all of their staff including their Editor in Chief in 2016 due to profitablility issues and all content since then has been done by freelancers, they then hired Memoree Joelle as the new EiC later in 2016, upon which the site began to take a transphobic bent.[https://www.out.com/news-opinion/2019/2/13/afterellen-was-refuge-all-queer-women-until-it-wasnt][https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/laurenstrapagiel/lesbian-media-anti-trans-afterellen] Given that it's apparently being written by freelancers makes it equivalent (on pure reliability terms) to sources like [[Bustle (magazine)|Bustle]], which [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Bustle|is considered yellow rated at RSP]]. I think for its opinion on transgender issues it is likely to not constitute due weight. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 22:27, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

:::Hemiauchenia, no need to ping me. I didn't simply assert that a source is reliable because it "agrees with [my] position in a dispute." I never do, as many know. I stated that it is reliable per what is made clear at the WP:Reliable sources guideline. In the discussion I pointed, I stated, in part, "AfterEllen counts as a [[WP:Reliable source]], and we use it in a number of Wikipedia articles. This includes articles it was used in long before certain LGBT sites got together and deemed it transphobic. It is not simply some blog. And on the topic of blogs, [[WP:NEWSBLOG]] is clear. And unlike ''[[PinkNews]]'', AfterEllen is not listed at [[WP:RSPSOURCES]] as a generally unreliable source. That stated, we also apply [[WP:CONTEXTMATTERS]] when we use sources. In this context, AfterEllen isn't the best source to use to state 'Rowling's words also found widespread support.', given the controversy surrounding AfterEllen on trans issues. It, however, is not a source that is blacklisted, including from being used for its own personal commentary on trans issues. And regardless, it is not like I suggested using it, YouTube, or Twitter as a source in the article." I was commenting on the source, not giving my personal opinion on how I feel about the Rowling drama. I was not stating or suggesting that "not being on the perennial sources list [means] that the source is reliable." I compared it to ''PinkNews'' because both are within the realm of LGBT sources. AfterEllen is not obscure when it comes to sources for content about lesbian and bisexual women or fictional characters. 

:::As for it being deemed transphobic by a few LGBT sites? It became embroiled in what is a culture war, which is noted [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=AfterEllen&oldid=962457600#History in its Wikipedia] article. There are various reliable sources, including ''[[The Guardian]]'', which comment on this culture war and note that many people (both trans and non-trans) do not agree with everything that is deemed transgender rights or transphobic these days. [https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/12/jk-rowling-row-hints-at-generational-rift-on-transgender-rights This] 2020 "JK Rowling row hints at generational rift on transgender rights" ''The Guardian'' source is a recent source to comment on it. Whether or not "genital preferences" are transphobic is one of the recent debates when it comes to transgender issues. And that is the debate that AfterEllen got itself embroiled in. And, yes, including their commentary on the matter is completely [[WP:Due]]. We aren't going to have one-sided content on that matter, just like we don't do that in the [[TERF]] and [[Feminist views on transgender topics]] articles. If a source such as [https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/some-women-have-penises-if-you-won-t-sleep-with-them-you-re-transphobic this] 2019 "Some women have penises. If you won't sleep with them you're transphobic" source from ''[[The Spectator]]'' criticizes the viewpoint it mentions, we may include commentary from it with [[WP:In-text attribution]]. We aren't going to exclude the viewpoint of conservative sources like ''The Spectator''. Likewise, we aren't going to exclude the viewpoint of lesbians who disagree with notions that some trans people (or trans activists who aren't trans themselves) hold. [[User:Flyer22 Frozen|Flyer22 Frozen]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Frozen|talk]]) 23:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC) <small> Tweaked post. [[User:Flyer22 Frozen|Flyer22 Frozen]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Frozen|talk]]) 23:59, 2 July 2020 (UTC) </small>
:::: ''The Spectator'' primarily consists of opinion pieces rather than original reporting, including the piece you mention, which falls under [[WP:NEWSBLOG]] rather than the general reliable sources guidelines and these pieces should be attributed and used with discretion. What expertise does James Kirkup, the author of ''The Spectator'' piece you mention and the director of the [[Social Market Foundation]] thinktank have on transgender issues? Why is his opinion on the matter considered important enough to hypothetically warrant inclusion? I agree that its interviews are usable per [[WP:ABOUTSELF]] like most other outlets, but you didn't address my main issue which is that the outlet apparently relies on freelancers after the 2016 firings by Evolve Media, unless this changed after Memoree Joelle bought out the website in 2019? The alleged erasure of bylines of former reporters to simply "staff" after they publicly criticised the outlet online is also concering [https://www.out.com/news-opinion/2019/2/13/afterellen-was-refuge-all-queer-women-until-it-wasnt per Out]:
::::{{quote|text=It’s hard to discern which is more painful for the former AfterEllen community: watching the website veer into transphobia, seeing the archives and the work of some contributors disappear overnight, or witnessing their bylines simply changed to “staff” with no reasoning offered. [Current Editor in Chief Memoree] Joelle suggests it was part of a companywide sweep not specific to AfterEllen, but [former contributor Ali] Davis suspects otherwise. “It's a punitive thing when you tangle with AfterEllen’s Twitter,” she says, “or publicly take issue with their current editorial direction. I'm assuming that my content will disappear after this article goes up.”}} [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 23:33, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::You stated, "The Spectator primarily consists of opinion pieces." Yep. And still allowed. Much of the commentary seen in the TERF and Feminist views on transgender topics articles are from opinion pieces, as has been made clear on the talk pages of those articles. '''For most of the current literature on these topics, the sources are mainly media sources (especially opinion pieces) rather than academic sources.''' Anyone who has thoroughly read the literature on all of this, like I have, knows that. We can't treat either side as the one true "correct" side. <del>At least not yet.</del> Not ever, really. As for the rest, it's culture war stuff...like I stated. ''The Spectator'' is allowed to have its opinion on it. No expertise needed. In our medical articles, for example, we don't deem that expertise on any one issue is needed before certain opinions can be included in the "Society and culture" section. Nothing about that at [[WP:MEDSECTIONS]]. Across Wikipedia, we judge matters on WP:Due, yes. But I don't see what expertise is needed to comment on whether or not "genital preferences" are transphobic. I'm not concerned about the internal happenings with AfterEllen as far as Wikipedia goes. I'll leave that for others to comment on.   

:::::And regarding [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=965703101 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies&diff=prev&oldid=965703785 this]? Guess I will alert editors at [[Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources]] and [[Wikipedia talk:Verifiability]] for wider input. [[User:Flyer22 Frozen|Flyer22 Frozen]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Frozen|talk]]) 23:59, 2 July 2020 (UTC) <small> Updated post. [[User:Flyer22 Frozen|Flyer22 Frozen]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Frozen|talk]]) 00:10, 3 July 2020 (UTC) </small>

*Reliable per Flyer22 Frozen, opinion pieces obviously should be attributed as such. [[User:Gleeanon409|Gleeanon409]] ([[User talk:Gleeanon409|talk]]) 22:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
*:Okay great, thank you everyone. I didn't see that previous post actually, but that's helpful {{Re|Flyer22 Frozen}}. How about using it as a source to provide information about a relationship on BLP articles? Specifically, I am thinking in terms of on the [[Jordan Nobbs]] page. A user named [[AmSam13]] recently attempted to add info to her article documenting how her girlfriend is [[Leah Williamson]], citing an AfterEllen article. Significantly, the article also states that both the players are ''openly'' lesbian. This is the article: https://www.afterellen.com/sports-people/576413-she-believes-recap. Other users removed the cited content the user added, but to be honest I don't see anything wrong with what [[AmSam13]] was trying to add. Just wanted to know what the precedent was in these situations.[[User:Speaker of Truth and Wisdom|Speaker of Truth and Wisdom]] ([[User talk:Speaker of Truth and Wisdom|talk]]) 22:53, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
*::AfterEllen routinely interviews lesbian and bisexual women. It is perfectly fine to use it when reporting on what lesbian or bisexual women told them. If it is reporting that someone is lesbian or bisexual, or in a same-sex relationship with someone, without being an exclusive interview, it is best to not report on that unless other reliable sources are also reporting on it. I would not simply go by what one source states if it's not an exclusive interview. If other reliable sources are not also reporting on it, it begs the [[WP:Due]] question. It puts the reliability of the report into question. [[User:Flyer22 Frozen|Flyer22 Frozen]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Frozen|talk]]) 23:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
*It's '''reliable''' per what Flyer22 Frozen said, of course in accord with [[WP:CONTEXTMATTERS]]. I don't really have anything more to add. <span style="font-family:Palatino">[[User:Crossroads|'''Crossroads''']]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Crossroads|-talk-]]</sup> 03:26, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
*(I saw a notice about this on [[WT:V]], which as an aside should be an acronym for the Wikipedia version of MTV.) The site underwent editorial changes in 2016, after which the quality of its 'reporting' has decreased. We should probably '''evaluate the reliability of articles on a case-by-case basis''' (not unlike ''Bustle''), mind its editorial bent and [[WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV]] in-text where necessary, and not use it as a sole source for exceptional claims (and using it as a sole source for claims that someone is dating someone else raises [[WP:WEIGHT]] questions, as Flyer says), whereas using it for [[WP:ABOUTSELF|statements about its current views, governance, etc]] should be fine. [[User:-sche|-sche]] ([[User talk:-sche|talk]]) 03:34, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
* I'm very impressed that someone found this noticeboard with their fifth edit. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 08:46, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
::{{Re|JzG}} What you trynna say? [[User:Speaker of Truth and Wisdom|Speaker of Truth and Wisdom]] ([[User talk:Speaker of Truth and Wisdom|talk]]) 13:36, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
:::{{u|Speaker of Truth and Wisdom}}, that you carry three of the most compelling idicators for abuse: immediately piling in to contentious areas, immediately finding obscure project pages, and a username containing "Truth". I'll put a dollar on you not lasting long here. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 22:49, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Not generally reliable''' on trans issues; if Pink News is unreliable for sensationalism on this subject, then AE is too, from the other side (their continuing hagiography of a anti-semitic conspiracy theorist because she agreed with them is a case in point) . OTOH, I'm not ''too'' fussed about their articles outside of that sphere. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' ([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]]) 22:20, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

*'''Reliable''' because it focuses on issues concerning lesbians and bisexual women. When dealing with topics involving lesbians, bi women, and other segments of the LGBT community, ''AfterEllen'' meets '''[[WP:RSCONTEXT]]'''. (The general "LGBT media", be it print or online, publish articles and commentaries about the LGBT community, but don't typically center their attention on any segment. But there are still a few, such as ''[[Instinct (magazine)]]'' and ''[[Towleroad.com]]'', that lean towards gay men and their interests; ''[[Bi Community News]]'' focuses on bisexuals, and ''[http://www.thefence.ca/about-the-magazine/ The Fence]'' zine on bisexual women.) ''AfterEllen'' began to publish more political stories and op-eds after 2016, and some who disagree with post-2016 ''AfterEllen'' have campaigned to discredit and marginalize it and its staff. However, ''AfterEllen'' doesn't invent controversial subjects, it reports and expands on them. It also has published pieces from individuals that have experienced suppression tactics from members of the LGBT community. As for the above comment regarding trans issues and ''AfterEllen'' ... '''[[WP:BIASED]]''' states: "{{tq|reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject.}}" Add to this '''[[WP:NPOVS]]''' : {{tq|'''Reliable sources may be non-neutral''': a source's reputation for fact-checking is not inherently dependent upon its point of view.}}" [[User:Pyxis Solitary|<span style="background-color: #eadff5; color: #6e02db;">'''Pyxis Solitary'''</span>]] [[User talk:Pyxis Solitary| <span style="color:#FF007C;">(yak)</span>]]. ''L not Q''. 07:54, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

*'''Generally unreliable.''' per Sceptre and Hemiauchenia. Particularly concerning is the fact that many entries are written not by journalists or specialists, but by "bloggers" (that's how they describe themselves). <span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 7px;background:#0d0638">[[User:Daveout|<span style="font-family:Courier New;color:#15ff00">'''daveout'''</span>]]</span> 👾 [[User talk:Daveout|<span style="color:#333b40"><sup>(talk)</sup></span>]] 00:41, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
::They '''didn't state''' "generally unreliable." Hemiauchenia expressed concern about the source being used for "BLP articles, particularly as a source of sexual orientation" and for reporting on trans issues. Hemiauchenia also questioned the internal aspects of the site, and compared its reliability to ''Bustle'', which has not been deemed generally unreliable. And Sceptre was very careful to limit its supposed unreliability to the topic of trans issues, '''not to anything else.''' But either way, WP:CONTEXTMATTERS and WP:In-text attribution have been cited above. Should AfterEllen be used to state an opinion as fact on trans issues? That is a no per [[WP:WIKIVOICE]]. Can it be used for its opinion on trans issues as they relate to lesbians (or bisexual women, etc.)? Absolutely. Our rules support that. [[User:Flyer22 Frozen|Flyer22 Frozen]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Frozen|talk]]) 02:06, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

::And what did ''PinkNews'' in is not its sensationalism, but what is stated in the [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 292#PinkNews AKA Pink News|most recent WP:Reliable sources noticeboard discussion about it.]] It took [[User:Genericusername57|Genericusername57]] looking into the matter. [[User:Flyer22 Frozen|Flyer22 Frozen]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Frozen|talk]]) 02:25, 6 July 2020 <small> [[User:Flyer22 Frozen|Flyer22 Frozen]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Frozen|talk]]) 02:31, 6 July 2020 (UTC)  Tweaked post. (UTC) </small>
:::Please ping my username when replying to me, otherwise I most likely won’t notice it. I’m aware they didn’t say ‘’generally unreliable’’, '''I said that'''. I only mentioned those users because I agree with their reasonings (but not necessarily with their conclusions). I’ve probably made a poor choice of words (if that ‘’''per''’’ sounded misleading, I apologize) <span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 7px;background:#0d0638">[[User:Daveout|<span style="font-family:Courier New;color:#15ff00">'''daveout'''</span>]]</span> 👾 [[User talk:Daveout|<span style="color:#333b40"><sup>(talk)</sup></span>]] 03:32, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

::{{ping|Daveout}} The only staff writer identified as a "blogger" by [https://www.afterellen.com/about AfterEllen] is [https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/16379866.Claire_L_Heuchan  Claire Heuchan]. She is well known in Scotland. In 2016, her blog ''Sister Outrider'' was named  [https://web.archive.org/web/20190421103135/https://www.edinburghguide.com/news/activism/17659-winnersannouncedforthewritetoendviolenceagainstwomenawards2016  Best Blog] by Write to End Violence Against Women Awards; and Heuchan was shortlisted for the [[Emma Humphreys]] [http://www.c5769339.myzen.co.uk/news/2016-shortlist-and-prize-giving-event  Memorial Prize]. She co-authored, with [[Nikesh Shukla]], the 2018 book ''What is Race? Who are Racists? Why Does Skin Colour Matter? And Other Big Questions''. She has also written for [https://www.theguardian.com/profile/claire-heuchan  ''The Guardian''], [https://www.glamourmagazine.co.uk/profile/claire-heuchan ''Glamour''] magazine, [https://www.scotsman.com/news/crime/claire-heuchan-here-too-black-men-die-custody-white-officers-2877041 ''The Scotsman''], and others. She has been interviewed, for example, by [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p046dmh8 ''BBC Radio''], and has received [https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/28/woman-who-linked-racism-with-scottish-nationalism-sadiq-khan-quits-twitter-over-safety-fears  media coverage]. So ... please explain, exactly what makes someone a "journalist" and what are the qualifications for being considered a "specialist" in lesbian, bisexual, and LGBT-in-general, matters? [[User:Pyxis Solitary|<span style="background-color: #eadff5; color: #6e02db;">'''Pyxis Solitary'''</span>]] [[User talk:Pyxis Solitary| <span style="color:#FF007C;">(yak)</span>]]. ''L not Q''. 09:52, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

:::If you can’t tell the difference between a blogger and a journalist, it’s not up to me to explain that to you. Katiee McKinstry, too, identifies herself as some sort of professional blog writer. Gabrielle Alejandro identifies herself primarily as a fiction writer. My point is: most, if not all, of them don’t seem to have much recognition on the journalism sector. Yes, we do have self-proclaimed journalist and specialists everywhere, but what lacks in such cases is a more robust peer recognition and quality check. This source should only be used for providing opinions on pop-culture matters, not on transgender people. <span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 7px;background:#0d0638">[[User:Daveout|<span style="font-family:Courier New;color:#15ff00">'''daveout'''</span>]]</span> 👾 [[User talk:Daveout|<span style="color:#333b40"><sup>(talk)</sup></span>]] 12:04, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

::::Oh, I can tell the difference very well. Many journalists are also bloggers (for example, [http://jonslattery.blogspot.com  Jon Slattery]), but blogging does not in and of itself negate their being journalists. When someone writes for newspapers,  magazines, and websites/blogs such as, for example, ''[[HuffPost]]'', they cross into the journalism field. "{{tq|This source should only be used for providing opinions on pop-culture matters, not on transgender people.}}" Unfortunately for you and others who share your opinion, an LGBT website that covers transgender-related subjects conforms with '''[[WP:RSCONTEXT]]'''. Just because you don't like what it may publish about it does not invalidate its knowledge about the subject. As much as some editors may hate it, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. [[User:Pyxis Solitary|<span style="background-color: #eadff5; color: #6e02db;">'''Pyxis Solitary'''</span>]] [[User talk:Pyxis Solitary| <span style="color:#FF007C;">(yak)</span>]]. ''L not Q''. 12:17, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

::: Pyxis, that's pretty misleading as there is only one other person listed on the about page, which implies that the rest of the content is contributed by freelancers.[[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 20:51, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
::::And you're grasping at straws. You know what other publications also use freelancers? Every, single, one. Perhaps you have been in the dark about how newsrooms have been drastically [https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/04/20/u-s-newsroom-employment-has-dropped-by-a-quarter-since-2008/ cutting staff] for over 10 years, with journalists [https://variety.com/2020/biz/news/journalism-coronavirus-jobs-media-unemployment-1234592340/ being laid off] and [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-01/journalism-layoffs-are-at-the-highest-level-since-last-recession losing their jobs]. Newspapers and magazines (for example, [https://www.cjr.org/business_of_news/freelance-journalists-best-gigs.php ''Los Angeles Times'', ''The Guardian'', ''The New Yorker'']) have always used [[Stringer (journalism)|stringers]]. Online publications may have editors, but only a very small staff of full-time writers (if any). [https://www.makealivingwriting.com/freelance-writing-jobs-online-magazines/ Digital publications use freelance writers]. Since the day it went online, ''HuffPost'' relied on free content submitted by freelance writers and in 2018 it finally [https://www.cjr.org/analysis/so-now-huffpost-decides-to-pay-writers-its-effect-on-the-industry-still-lingers.php began to pay them]. Just like ''HuffPost'' and other publications, ''AfterEllen'' uses freelance writers, too ... ''so what''? [[User:Pyxis Solitary|<span style="background-color: #eadff5; color: #6e02db;">'''Pyxis Solitary'''</span>]] [[User talk:Pyxis Solitary| <span style="color:#FF007C;">(yak)</span>]]. ''L not Q''. 10:54, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::Articles written by freelancers tend to be much less reliable than staff journalists. --[[User:Hipal|Hipal/Ronz]] ([[User talk:Hipal|talk]]) 16:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
::::::Uh-huh. Someone should let freelance investigative reporter [http://erin-mcintyre.com/Erin  Erin Siegal McIntyre] know that she's "much less reliable" at what she does. And [https://talentnetwork.washingtonpost.com/ ''The Washington Post''] needs to know that if it continues to use freelance writers its status as a Wikipedia reliable source will be revoked. [[User:Pyxis Solitary|<span style="background-color: #eadff5; color: #6e02db;">'''Pyxis Solitary'''</span>]] [[User talk:Pyxis Solitary| <span style="color:#FF007C;">(yak)</span>]]. ''L not Q''. 06:20, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

*'''Generally unreliable''', same reasoning as daveout. Even setting aside the transphobia allegations, a site written by bloggers is a blog, not a news site. A site needs an editorial process to be reliable, and from what other editors have been saying, it doesn't appear they have much of one. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 06:23, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Generally reliable''' for what its interviews say. The question "What is the reliability?" is meaningless as is seen in the edit notice displayed while editing this section—a meaningful question needs source + article + content. The source is not reliable for views about astronomy, but is reliable for the sorts of things mentioned in some comments above. A more honest appraisal would say that ''no'' sources are reliable for blanket statements regarding sexuality because the science is not settled. Claiming that a particular source is or is not reliable based on claims of transphobia indicates the issue concerns ideology, not reliability. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 07:18, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable in context'''  It looks OK along the lines of Pyxis Solitary's comments.  I would certainly be careful about using it in wiki voice but as an noted view on LGBT subject matter it seems reasonable.  [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 14:58, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Generally reliable, in context'''. It's not really any different from other [[WP:NEWSBLOG]] resources. It having, editorially, a general socio-political stance is irrelevant, or we'd have to ban most newspapers, etc. (the majority of which are firmly left-of-center). The fact that not everyone agrees with everything ''AfterEllen'' publishes in relation to transgender/non-binary topics doesn't make them unreliable, it just means there are activists with strong views and sharp tongues for those who don't share the same dogma.  Like other works of this sort, ''AfterEllen'' is a useful source for interview material ([[WP:ABOUTSELF]]), and for op-ed material written by persons who are notable or are reputable within their field. On many topics pertaining to LGBT matters, there is little published material other than this variety, and we use it regularly, despite it essentially being [[WP:PRIMARYSOURCE]].  This publication is obviously not a reliable source for things outside its bailiwick, like [[WP:MEDRS]] claims about TG/NB psychology and neurology, etc. I.e., use [[WP:Common sense]], as always. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 01:41, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
{{collapse top|title=Extensive and decreasingly on-topic side discussion|width=95%}}
::If it was just polite disagreement on trans issues, then I wouldn't have gone for unreliable on that issue. But their hagiography of the anti-semitic transphobe [[Magdalen Berns]] as a "feminist warrior" is proof positive that their coverage on the issue can't be trusted. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' ([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]]) 20:07, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
:::As seen in [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Magdalen_Berns&oldid=965974064#Criticism_and_acclaim this] section at the Magdalen Berns article, sources like the ''[[Morning Star (British newspaper)|Morning Star]]'' also praised her. And before anyone calls it a tabloid, I point out that [[tabloid (newspaper format)]], which is the format this paper is published in, is not the same thing as [[tabloid journalism]]. The section also notes that Berns was posthumously shortlisted for the [[Emma Humphreys]] Memorial Prize, which the organization awards to women it deems to have "raised awareness of violence against women and children". It states that she received a special award from the organization. [[User:Flyer22 Frozen|Flyer22 Frozen]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Frozen|talk]]) 22:19, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
::::Incidentally, regarding the ''Morning Star'', they're also another source I'd discourage using on trans issues, especially pre-February 2020; the paper's coverage was ''incredibly'' transphobic, which ended up with the publication of a horrendously transphobic cartoon which [https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/we-failed-our-duty-equality-and-liberation they later apologised for printing] (One can compare to their views on homosexuality, not moving past the Soviet "bourgeois decadence" line until about a decade after homosexuality was decriminalised.). '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' ([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]]) 03:59, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
:::<br />Sceptre: There's no particular connection between feminism, and viewpoints that don't directly relate to women's equality, beyond a general but very loose trend toward "being under the left umbrella" and thus being statistically more likely to be supportive of other civil-rights and social-justice causes. But marching together in lockstep with {{em|all}} of them in every detail is not a definitional requirement of "feminist", especially when one of them conflicts with some definitions of what feminism is/means. My own mother was a whitebread American southerner. She was an outspoken feminist, but long shared the same "casual racism" (of negative assumptions, etc., not outright hatred) as most of her yokel family members. Didn't make her not a feminist (and she was actually LGBT-friendly, unlike most everyone she grew up with). More to the point, we know for an undisputed fact that a branch/wing/whatever of feminism (mostly populated by middled-aged and older women, with a disproportionate percentage of them lesbians) is not exactly transwoman-friendly. That doesn't make them not feminists, it just makes them an unpopular kind of feminist. (Though not universally so; the "TERFwar" issue has been described in many sources as a wide-ranging, fundamental schism within feminism, especially among the second wave.)  This publication doesn't somehow become unreliable because they profiled a person with exclusionary definitions. Magazines and other publications pretty often profile controversial people (because it sells). In these overly-polarized times, it is difficult sometimes to remember that a publisher may have multiple (and often undisclosed) reasons for shining a light in a particular direction, or lending the podium to a caustic and contrarian voice. Just stirring the pot is a common one. We usually do not use ''[[Medium (website)|Medium]]'' as a source, unless the writer is a known subject-matter expert. But it's not because ''Medium'' published a piece by a co-founder of the trans-exclusionary group ForWomen; it's because ''Medium'' permits [[WP:UGC]] (at all, regardless of the subject matter). The nature of the editorial process (and real-world editorial reputation) matter, but the viewpoint doesn't, as long as it's not blatant falsehood.<!--
--><p>I would think that encyclopedists, more than anyone, would understand that proper biographical coverage of a subject doesn't ignore their successful/influential/positive work just because there was also a darker or debated side to the subject. And any general writer and reader understands that obituaries (and "pre-obituaries" of people on their deathbeds) are by their nature designed to focus on the positive. Not agreeing with someone on a particular socio-political matter doesn't mean one should demonize the other side (something so many ethically myopic activists forget or never learn – and it's getting to the point of misogyny and even direct advocacy of violence against alleged "TERFs", e.g. from groups like Action for Trans Health London). I have no personal strong feelings about Berns, but she self-described as a radical-feminist lesbian and a firm believer in the primacy and meaningfulness of biological/birth sex. Ergo, it is not unreasonable to expect her to have been actually radical, and focused on "fully biological" women, even if we don't all agree with her. But lots of people do (keep in mind that the recent, Western, liberal, accepting viewpoint about TG/NB people is a very small minority position among the total world population, even if it's arguably more just and is increasingly backed in various ways by cognitive science and other disciplines). "Feminist warrior" really does seem like an apt description of Berns (in kind of a [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]]-ish sense, plus it's also a play on words, in that she was a competitive ring fighter).</p><!--
--><p>There's actually a whole lot of coverage of her in other publications. Just a few examples from the first page of Google hits:<!--
--><ul><li>''[[The National Review]]'' (who called her a "shero", "a captivating and insightful speaker", "a great source of inspiration and clarity for those trying to resist gender extremism")[https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/magdalen-berns-a-shero-among-women/]</li><!--
--><li>''[[The Post and Courier]]'' ("online feminist influencer" whose impending death from brain cancer was openly celebrated by a TG-activist [[Rachel McKinnon]], which has of course turned into a counter-controversy, on top of other ire directed at McKinnon)[https://www.postandcourier.com/news/the-tweet-heard-round-the-world-charleston-professor-sparks-global-twitter-debate/article_4a462cda-c9c7-11e9-8134-d32dc721835d.html]</li><!--
--><li>''[[Camden New Journal]]'' ("took a stand for women's rights&nbsp;.... [H]er sharp wit and the incisive intelligence&nbsp;... made her an international hit and&nbsp;... one of the best-known feminist speakers of her generation")[http://camdennewjournal.com/article/magdalen-berns-vlogger-who-took-a-stand-for-womens-rights]; same piece also published in the [UK] ''[[Morning Star (British newspaper)|Morning Star]]''[https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/feminist-vivid-love-life-gone-too-soon].</li></ul><!--
-->They're a wide range; ''TNR'' is right-leaning, though secular. ''TPaC'' is a regular newspaper, in a conservative-leaning US state, and seems centrist to weak right, while ''CNJ'' is left-leaning as the leading London "alt" paper. ''MS'' is far-left. And, of course, innumerable feminist and lesbian and civil-rights/social-justice magazines and blogs published even more praising material; I am hard-pressed to find any feminist works that are critical of her, though some are {{em|respectfully}} critical of one of her socio-political positions. Are {{em|all}} these publications unreliable because they "failed" to call her a TERF and supposedly a Jew-hater? I think not. I certainly don't see an RSN thread seeking to deem ''TNR'' and ''TPaC'' and ''CNJ'' unreliable. PS: I can't find a single actually reliable source that says Berns was an anti-Semite. So: {{talkfact}}. I would bet real money this is another case of someone with an [[WP:SOAPBOX|activist hare up their butt]] taking some comment out of context and blowing it up into a manufactured "controversy" as a form of character assassination. But this isn't Facebook, so that doesn't fly here.<br /><span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 00:36, 8 July 2020 (UTC)</p>
:SMcCandlish, I don't you should be commenting on anything related to transgender issues after that (now blanked) [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour|2019 signpost entry]] that was regarded by many people as transphobic [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 01:10, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
::Yikes, I wasn't aware of that. Yeah, I think SMC shouldn't be commenting within a mile of this stuff after reading the MfD discussion. That ''Signpost''  article was mean-spirited and petty ''at best'' (another [[I Sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter|attack helicopter joke]], how original), and his attitude in the MfD doesn't come close to convincing me that I should even assume that best. Mind you, Wikipedia has had an institutional transphobia problem for ''years'', and I've not seen any attempt to combat that, so I'm not surprised ''either''. 
::With regards to her being an anti-semite thing, she [https://twitter.com/MagdalenBerns/status/855118553477001220 tweeted] [https://twitter.com/MagdalenBerns/status/825871260592775168 multiple] [https://twitter.com/MagdalenBerns/status/773377523614900224 times] [https://twitter.com/MagdalenBerns/status/752675252388368384 about] Soros funding trans rights movements]. Unless you can find me the magical non-antisemitic Soros conspiracy theory, it's a reasonable assumption to make that she was either antisemitic or incredibly thick <small>(The past five years of British political discourse has made it incredibly difficult to distinguish the two)</small>. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' ([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]]) 03:59, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
:::To address both Hemiauchenia and Sceptre's essentially indistinguishable comments: "Thick" strikes me as amazingly more likely.  And you're engaging in stark obvious OR that verges on just making stuff up; her tweets say nothing at all about Jews or Judaism. Many people object to funding by Soros and his foundations, without their concerns having any connection at all to Jewish questions.  The main objection to "SorosBucks" is that he gained most of his wealth in what is generally perceived to be an exploitative manner, making his later charitable efforts arguably some combination of "too little, too late" and a whitewashing campaign.  I don't necessarily concur with that view, but it is very common.  Another is that his foundations support particular political viewpoints only.  And there are others.  As for your "I don't you should be commenting" [{{lang|la|sic}}] posturing, you don't get to decide who comments on what. If you continue [[WP:ASPERSIONS]] and [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]] behavior in regard to an old dispute that you clearly do not even understand, then we're going to end up at ArbCom or AE, because the topic area in question (human sexuality and gender) is covered by [[WP:AC/DS|discretionary sanctions]]. It is not permissible to go around on WP whacking at people because of a perceived difference of socio-political position, and you'll have to absorb that one way or another. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 21:48, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
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*'''Generally reliable''' for pop-culture pieces and if there are appropriate interviews, probably elsewhere too. Everything would depend on the context. [[User:SlimVirgin|SarahSV]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</sup></small> 20:41, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
*:Yeah, on the context thing that I and others (you included) have cited, when AfterEllen is commenting on trans issues, it's in the context of lesbian issues (at least in part). And the "generally unreliable" view would be a concern when one considers the pre-2016 state of the site. This is why a case-by-case basis makes sense if we were to state that its post-2016 state is generally an issue. [[User:Flyer22 Frozen|Flyer22 Frozen]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Frozen|talk]]) 22:19, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
:::"{{tq|would be a concern when one considers the pre-2016 state of the site}}" and "{{tq|its post-2016 state is generally an issue}}" ... huh? The ditzy AfterEllen is the pre-2016 AfterEllen. The more intense AfterEllen is the post-2016 AfterEllen (more herstory, more women of color, more political). [[User:Pyxis Solitary|<span style="background-color: #eadff5; color: #6e02db;">'''Pyxis Solitary'''</span>]] [[User talk:Pyxis Solitary| <span style="color:#FF007C;">(yak)</span>]]. ''L not Q''. 06:50, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
::::I'm speaking of the notion that the pre-2016 AfterEllen is reliable while the post-2016 AfterEllen is unreliable. If it was consensus that AfterEllen is generally unreliable because of its post-2016 state, then there would be editors yanking AfterEllen sources from articles based solely on seeing the "generally unreliable" listing at WP:RSPSOURCES...unless that listing had an "but not its pre-2016 state" clause. The listing stating "generally unreliable" without that clause would mean that AfterEllen would be yanked from articles without considering its pre-2016 context. AfterEllen sources that predate the 2016 year would get pulled as well. I'm not arguing that post-2016 AfterEllen is a problem. [[User:Flyer22 Frozen|Flyer22 Frozen]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Frozen|talk]]) 21:39, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::Okey dokey. [[User:Pyxis Solitary|<span style="background-color: #eadff5; color: #6e02db;">'''Pyxis Solitary'''</span>]] [[User talk:Pyxis Solitary| <span style="color:#FF007C;">(yak)</span>]]. ''L not Q''. 02:58, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Generally reliable''' with the caveat, as mentioned so many times above, that [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Context_matters|context matters]], case by case. The context in general is, as far as I can see, that AfterEllen is a site set up for lesbians and bisexual women (or, if you want to be cynical, for advertisers who wish to reach this demographic), and so it reports on things deemed to be of interest to that community. Much of that is pop culture, but other issues, e.g. health, are also covered, as are legal changes, or proposed legal changes. AfterEllen runs pieces commenting on, among other things, politics and laws, so its commentary seems like a useful one to rely on to give the perspective of what some lesbians are thinking about political changes and legal rulings and related matters. (It would also be reliable in [[WP:BLP]] terms for statements that subjects make about themselves, but I don't think this is under contention.) [[User:Carbon Caryatid|Carbon Caryatid]] ([[User talk:Carbon Caryatid|talk]]) 12:38, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
*At best  '''No consensus, unclear, or additional considerations apply:''' The source is marginally reliable (i.e. neither generally reliable nor generally unreliable), and may be usable depending on context. Regarding context, it is a lesbian focused pop-culture site, so it maybe reliable on Lesbian sexual orientation issues but it is not reliable on trans gender issues and people (gender and sexual orientation being two different things). Knowledge of one area of the LGBTI+ spectrum is not automatic expertise in all areas. Like Bustle it is not generally reliable for BLP articles and reliability should be evaluated strictly on a case-by-case basis. It is a site largely written by bloggers, not professional journalists, so its not really a news site; but my knowledge of their editorial process is unclear and how willingly do they offer up retractions.[[User:Bodney|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;color:  #660099 ;"> ~ BOD ~ </span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Bodney#top|<small style="font-family:Papyrus;color:green;">TALK</small>]]</sup> 14:03, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
*I don't really agree with determinations "generally reliable" or even "generally unreliable" for most sources because it is misleading. [[WP:CONTEXTMATTERS]] always. Certainly AfterEllen is reliable for its interviews, nobody has provided evidence they are posting fraudulent quotes or anything. I don't think I would trust any one source for saying someone is dating someone else or has a certain sexual orientation unless it is in an interview. If multiple sources pick it up then that gives ''some'' additional validity but it really needs to come from statements by the subjects themselves for BLPs and the highest quality history books and biographies for historical figures. As far as opinions on trans issues, I think AfterEllen should be available for attribution per [[WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV]] and generally given some weight based on its audience. What weight that should be I am not certain because I am not deeply familiar with these topics, but I generally favor a more inclusive diversity of attributed POVs unless we are talking about extreme fringe minority views. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 11:39, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
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== lacancha.com ==

[http://www.lacancha.com/koreaplayers.html] and {{Strikethrough|[http://www.lacancha.com/greatest.html]}} are used at [[Ki Chung Kim]], and they definitely appear to be self-published by a business promoting itself as the Taekwondo Hall of Fame. [[User:Jerodlycett|Jerod Lycett]] ([[User talk:Jerodlycett|talk]]) 17:42, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

== Bring a trailer ==
{{archive top|Closed per [[WP:RFCNEUTRAL]], and as premature. The questions as posed essentially ask editors to affirm that policy says what policy says. It does indeed say so, and it does not need an RfC to affirm that user generated content is not reliable, or that [[WP:SNOW]]balls do not survive the [[:Inferno (Dante)|Inferno]]. What is not neutral is that the questions posed assume that ''"Bring a Trailer"'' is a {{tq|buying selling website with user generated content}}. It likely is, but that should be a question for discussion, not an assumption of it. ''Oy'' indeed. {{nac}} - [[User:Ryk72|Ryk72]] <sup>[[User talk:Ryk72|talk]]</sup> 10:34, 14 July 2020 (UTC)}}

This request for comment has been started about the verifiability of a Bring a Trailer and whether or not it can be used as a source on Wikipedia.

This RfC asks:

1. Should a buying selling website with user generated content be used as a source for the verifiability of content added?

2. If the answer to the above is yes, then which Wikipedia policy merits its inclusion as a reliable source?

3. How often can we trust a content of a site like this with no editorial control where a user can write whatever they want while placing an item for sale?

Comments in this regard will be highly appreciated.[[User:U1Quattro|<span style="color:darkgreen;font-family:Verdana;text-shadow:2px 2px 2px #a6a6a6">U<sup>1</sup> <sub>q</sub>uattro</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:U1Quattro|<span style="color:green;text-shadow:2px 2px 2px #"><small>''TALK''</small></span>]] 03:24, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

* Answer to question 1 is clearly ''no'' as a buying/selling website is an [[WP:SPS]] and thus should be presumed unreliable for content about the products being sold on it. That should answer 2 and 3. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 03:26, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
*What Masem said. <b>[[User:Callanecc|Callanecc]]</b> ([[User talk:Callanecc|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Callanecc|contribs]] • [[Special:Log/Callanecc|logs]]) 04:49, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
*Masem is spot on, as usual. It is user generated content so per [[WP:SPS]] is no good. It would be like using a Facebook comment from some random user as a source. The only exception would be a personal site from a subject matter expert and even then generally fails weight and would have to be specifically attributed to them. It also could not be used for claims about a BLP. I feel like there is a back story to the question here though? [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 04:58, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
*This is a pretty obvious and straightforward question, does it really need an RFC? ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 05:31, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
*:'''Comment:''' Yes {{u|Buidhe}}. Especially in the case where a user thinks the source is reliable just because it agrees to the content he thinks is right.[[User:U1Quattro|<span style="color:darkgreen;font-family:Verdana;text-shadow:2px 2px 2px #a6a6a6">U<sup>1</sup> <sub>q</sub>uattro</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:U1Quattro|<span style="color:green;text-shadow:2px 2px 2px #"><small>''TALK''</small></span>]] 05:37, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
*:: Ok, so you are wasting community time with an RfC on an obvious question in order to settle a dispute elsewhere but you haven't bothered to provide a pointer to the original discussion?  Oy.  (Not to mention your failure to phrase the RfC question in a neutral way ....) --[[User:Joel B. Lewis|JBL]] ([[User_talk:Joel_B._Lewis|talk]]) 16:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
*:::'''Comment:''' There is nothing wrong with the RfC question as far as notability is concerned {{u|Joel B. Lewis}}. I'm not wasting community time, I'm seeking a consensus about this site since some users like to think it is a reliable source. If they presume it to be so, then eBay listings would also be used in the near future. Then we'd be wasting space and energy trying to convince users that such listings are not reliable. As far as the pointer goes, I'm not seeking a dispute resolution so that is not needed here.[[User:U1Quattro|<span style="color:darkgreen;font-family:Verdana;text-shadow:2px 2px 2px #a6a6a6">U<sup>1</sup> <sub>q</sub>uattro</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:U1Quattro|<span style="color:green;text-shadow:2px 2px 2px #"><small>''TALK''</small></span>]] 18:24, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
*:::: Everything in your comment is wrong.  Your RfC question fails totally at neutrally presenting the question: it is loaded and argumentative.  Not every dispute needs to be handled by an RfC, and this is an easy case where it would have sufficed to wait for one or two other editors to weigh in on the talkpage, or to request a [[WP:3O|third opinion]].  The slippery-slope argument you offer is completely idiotic.  The failure to point to the locus of original discussion is dishonest and potentially misleading to readers of this page; particularly because you are actively trying to use it to win a dispute. <br> The fact that you are ''correct'' about the substantive question is not an excuse for your extremely poor behavior.  I recommend you remove the pointless RfC tags, thank the people who have already weighted in, make a general apology to everyone for wasting time, and never do this kind of nonsense again. --[[User:Joel B. Lewis|JBL]] ([[User_talk:Joel_B._Lewis|talk]]) 19:39, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
* Those interested in why this is here should look at [[Talk:Toyota_Land_Cruiser_(J70)#HZJ75]]. --[[User:Joel B. Lewis|JBL]] ([[User_talk:Joel_B._Lewis|talk]]) 16:22, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
*User generated content is never RS unless it is by an expert.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:23, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
*Firstly, I have just spent 20 minutes [[Talk:Toyota Land Cruiser (J70)#HZJ75|responding to a request]] for a [[WP:3O|Third Opinion]] to answer this exact question; so colour me less than thrilled to discover the question had also been brought to [[WP:RSN]] at the same time (and answered by Masem). Secondly, it is patently obvious that, as a self-published / user-generated sales site, bringatrailer.com is nowhere near being a reliable source. I would strongly suggest this RFC is closed as a complete waste of time. --[[User:Jack Frost|Jack Frost]] ([[User talk:Jack Frost|talk]]) 10:13, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Song Have A Little Faith In Me ==

This song was performed by Jon Bon Jovi in the movie "New Year's Eve", 2011. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.34.150.16|71.34.150.16]] ([[User talk:71.34.150.16#top|talk]]) 13:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)</small>
:This is about sources, what source are you trying to use?[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:51, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

== Is video game website polygon.com a RS for information on allegations of sexual misconduct against BLPs? ==

This has recently come up [[Talk:Zak_Smith#RfC:_Allegations_of_Rape_Sourced_to_Game_Blogs_and_Fanzines|in this discussion]]. The gist of the question: is video game website Polygon.com a [[WP:RS]] to report on sex crimes allegations against BLPs? [[User:Chetsford|Chetsford]] ([[User talk:Chetsford|talk]]) 03:31, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Not RS for Sex Crimes Reporting''': Per [[WP:CONTEXTMATTERS]], the reliability of a source for one subject is not proof of its reliability for all subjects throughout space and time. We would not source coverage of elections in Mexico or the Syrian Civil War to video game website polygon.com, nor would we source a sensitive matter like sex crimes reporting to it. It does not have the capability or capacity to originate sex crimes reporting. Unambiguous RS like daily newspapers usually restrict which of their staff are assigned to enterprise stories on sexual violence to those with specialized training and experience; entire workshops are held to educate journalists on these highly complex beats.[https://www.poynter.org/educators-students/2016/reporting-on-sexual-violence/] It is unbelievable to presume an outlet whose articles are things like "Horizon Zero Dawn comes to PC on August 7" and "2020’s best tabletop RPGs" can seamlessly pivot to complex reporting on sexual violence as a one-off article before returning to such Pulitzer fare as "Ten Bustiest Booth Babes at E3". [[User:Chetsford|Chetsford]] ([[User talk:Chetsford|talk]]) 03:31, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable'''.  Since the context was omitted by OP, note that '''''the context here is about [[Zak Smith]], a well-known public figure in the games industry, getting blacklisted by WotC and having his previous credits removed over sexual misconduct allegations.'''''  Given how this context is plainly relevant to whether Polygon is a good source for it, I'm baffled you would omit it while simultaneously trying to invoke [[WP:CONTEXTMATTERS]].  Beyond that, Polygon is one of the most well-known publications in the industry. They're owned by Vox and, as far as I know, have the reputation for fact-checking and accuracy [[WP:RS]] requires; accusations against people within the industry are inside the scope of what they cover.  Furthermore, if we accepted your logic and refused to accusations that have attracted significant attention in high-profile, high-quality industry publications, it would be almost impossible to ever cover them at all, even when they rise to the point of eclipsing the subject's notability in all other aspects and even (as in this case) where it has become a major part of his biography, since someone who is ''only'' famous within a particular industry often doesn't get much, if any, coverage outside it.  (Your interpretation would eg. mean we would have to say he has been fired and his credits removed - clearly one of the main things he is notable at this point and something we cannot ignore - without saying ''why'', even though the sources are extremely clear.) I would also not classify Zak Smith as a [[WP:LPI]] given that he is a {{tq|n American artist, role-playing game author, and adult actor.}} --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 03:52, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
::To clarify, this is not a parallel RfC. This is just to determine if [[WP:CONTEXTMATTERS]] doesn't apply to video game website polygon.com and it has the assets and resources in place to reliably originate complex investigative reporting of sex crimes in-between articles like "Polygon staff members draw their favorite Pokémon with human teeth"; if, indeed, sex crimes journalism is something anyone of average intelligence and with no other qualifications can do. In other words, is someone who does a good job investigating and reporting on the latest Pokémon Go cartoon characters ipso facto qualified to investigate and report on rape and sexual abuse? [[User:Chetsford|Chetsford]] ([[User talk:Chetsford|talk]]) 03:59, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
:::This honestly does look like [[WP:FORUMSHOP]]ing to me - you've now opened two discussions in two separate places for this at the same time (and it looks like you opened this one only after it was clear the other was leaning towards inclusion).  You've also derailed multiple comments in that discussion into massive threads in the middle of the RFC.  You raised your [[WP:CONTEXTMATTERS]] objection there and it looks like most people disagreed with you, determining (correctly, in my view) that Polygon is sufficient to assess the bare existence and notability of allegations of misconduct against someone inside the industry.  We are not relying on them to state that the allegations are ''true'', only that they exist and are relevant within the context of the industry; given that Zak (as a writer and artist who is in fact slightly infamous for his public persona and his attempts to call attention to himself) is plainly a public figure, the bar for that isn't high once it becomes clear that the topic is [[WP:DUE]], while a high-profile industry publication with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy is in fact a good source for that.  Either way, you've already raised the issue; now you need to slow down and let other people weigh in on this rather than putting every possible objection you can on blast in every available venue. Also, the dismissive way you keep referring to Polygon puzzles me, given that you haven't actually raised anything legitimately calling their reliability into question. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 04:09, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
::::I'm sorry you feel that way, however, multiple participants in the RfC raised the suggestion that the question of whether or not polygon.com was RS for reporting on sex crimes should be addressed at RSN and the output of that discussion brought back to the RfC for the information of participants. Again, this discussion has nothing to do with Zac Smith so I'm not certain why you're bringing him up. This is a narrow question about whether polygon.com can be used to source complex information on sexual abuse. While it may apply to an open RfC, the results are intended to guide the use of sources on other BLPs, generally. [[User:Chetsford|Chetsford]] ([[User talk:Chetsford|talk]]) 04:16, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::It is obviously relevant to Zak Smith because the question of whether he is a public figure affects what sources can be used; you want to cite [[WP:CONTEXTMATTERS]], but that means you need to have an actual ''context''.  (In fact, I just realized you bafflingly not only omitted any mention of Zak S. but omitted any mention that we were discussing using it ''in the context of a figure's reputation and career in the game industry'', which is obviously relevant.)  Beyond that, I'll note that Polygon has been repeatedly cited by high profile publications for issues related to sexual misconduct in the game industry and similarly serious topics; see eg. [https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/evo-2020-tournament-cancelled-after-sexual-abuse-accusations-against-its-ceo-surface-1680315][https://www.businessinsider.com/cards-against-humanity-ceo-max-temkin-resigns-racism-sexism-allegations-2020-6][https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/10/jason-blum-female-directors-horror-blumhouse/573571/].  They cover a lot of stuff like this and are treated like a reliable source for it per [[WP:USEBYOTHERS]], so the way you're dismissing them just doesn't fit. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 04:28, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
::::::I glanced at that RFC and I see a few people that feel they want to hide the allegations under the rug but unfortunately: Zak meets PUBLICFIGURE, and his career was immediately affected by the allegations (he lost his job), which to me means we have to briefly mention them. Don't need any nitty gritty, we're not a celebrity rag, but to ''not'' mention them since they have been reported by multiple sources would be inappropriate. Polygon just happens to be the best source to start with. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 04:31, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::::There is a difference between {{xt|"want[ing] to hide allegations under the rug"}} and demanding rock solid sourcing when accusing a BLP of felonies. It makes me sad that you assume I am seeking to {{xt|"hide allegations"}} rather than simply engaging in an honest and open discussion about the veracity of references being used. My record shows that I have previously expressed extensive discomfort citing "gamer media" to source our most sensitive article type - BLPs - (e.g. [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_250#Is_Designers_&_Dragons_a_RS_for:_(a)_games_and_game_companies,_(b)_BLPs?|here]]) and I would challenge you to cite any evidence I'm trying to whitewash Zak Smith, whom I'd never even heard of prior to three days ago when I happened to see this [[User_talk:FixerFixerFixer#Blocked_for_sockpuppetry|unblock request]] from <ins>an account claiming to be him</ins><del>one of his the socks</del>. [[User:Chetsford|Chetsford]] ([[User talk:Chetsford|talk]]) 05:13, 8 July 2020 (UTC); edited 05:23, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
::::::::Stating that accusations of sexual misconduct that may have criminal charges that have been made against a person is not the same as claiming a person has engaged in in that sexual misconduct in a criminal manner. As the RFC has rightly pointed out, no court has yet charged him with anything, so for all purposes, he is an innocent person of these crimes. If that is all that happened, we should not report it. ''But'' he was fired from WotC, and others had to react to that. That massive impact on his career ''is'' now something you can't ignore. Again, its not saying he's guilty, but that because of these allegations, WotC has distanced themselves from him. So it is clear to establish that this is not trying to pin a crime on Smith, but we still have to tread lightly in the BLP context. That said, this still where Polygon has all the necessary qualities of an RS that just simply reporting 1) accusations were made towards Smith related to sexual misconduct, 2) Smith denied it, 3) WotC distanced themselves, and a few additional events. Polygon is ''not'' the originating source of the accusations (it is not like Woodward and Bernstein exposing Watergate), they are simply documenting events that occurred over a brief period of time. As a high quality RS in the area of video and board games, this is a not controversial use for them because they are not originating the accusations - they may be the first RS publishing them but that doesn't make them the point of origin. The way I'm reading the comments in the RFC I get a feeling that that there are some trying to defend Smith there and thus are trying to find any way to keep the sourcing out despite the fact that this is standard quality sourcing and appropriate material to include. (I don't think it is appropriate to include the stuff related to his girlfriend yet that is only sourced to fandomentalists, as *that* looks like an iffy RS to be introducing some of the claims that are more specific and may not be necessary to discuss directly per BLPVICTIM. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 05:59, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::I'm not sure what this has to do with the accusation you made that I'm trying {{xt|"to hide allegations under the rug"}}. This is not evidence of a conspiracy to whitewash the article. [[User:Chetsford|Chetsford]] ([[User talk:Chetsford|talk]]) 06:33, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
:*Note for other readers that my comments have been de-contextualized above by Aquillion and don't, therefore, reflect the thoughts I wished to express. Aquillion, per [[WP:REDACTED]] ''"if anyone has already replied to or quoted your original comment, changing your comment may deprive any replies of their original context, and this should be avoided."'' While it may be fine to correct your comment while indicating changes you've made, simply putting up new content de-contextualizes my own replies to you. [[User:Chetsford|Chetsford]] ([[User talk:Chetsford|talk]]) 05:13, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable''' Polygon is more than just video games, though that is its largest focus - it includes board games, films, music, and some other areas. And speaking from the video games project, we consider it one of the better sources in that field (It is owned by Vox Media, it has an editorial staff, and has a strong reputation for fact checking). It covers the culture of video games and the other areas it touches, which has included in the last several years areas related to issues like sexual misconduct, workplace overload, misogynistic gaming culture, and so forth. They have contacts within the gaming community, and frequently show their work to speak anonymously to the people affected to try to get the story down before reporting the details.  And as such, they would absolutely be reliable in how WP should '''briefly''' cover any sexual misconduct on notable BLPs such as at Zac Smith. Context does matter, if we were talking about, say, sexual misconduct allegations at a big Hollywood star or major politician that they would have no way to contact or the like. But here we're talking an author of tabletop RPGs who is clearly in Polygon's wheelhouse of expertise and contact, and thus fits the context. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 04:14, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
** Also to add, all Polygon is doing in the specific case of Zak Smith is summarizing primary sources as a secondary source. None of the details it gives are secrets (it links to all sources) and just gives a comprehensive story to understand the order of events. If a claim of sexual misconduct originated from a Polygon writer, that might be different, but the issues came out of Wizards of the Coast, his former employer, so that's different. So, yes, context matters, and in this case, easily supports the use of Polygon as a reliable documenter of record. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 04:18, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Note''' I asked {{U|Chetsford}} on [[User_talk:Chetsford#Polygon|July 6]] if he would interested in bringing Polygon to this noticeboard because of our disagreement in the Zak Smith RfC but suggested doing so later in the month (mostly because I wanted Polygon to be vetted as a whole on the issue and not for the debate to be swallowed by a single case). I thought two editors bringing something to the noticeboard because they disagreed made sense. Chetsford has chosen to bring this to the noticeboard by himself without notifying me in anyway. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 06:10, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
:*I responded to your comment [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chetsford&diff=966625270&oldid=966603244] by declining your offer. {{Xt|"Chetsford has chosen to bring this to the noticeboard by himself without notifying me"}} I apologize I'm not able to provide you the kind-of white glove Wikipedia experience you'd like. [[User:Chetsford|Chetsford]] ([[User talk:Chetsford|talk]]) 06:33, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable''' Harassment (sexual or otherwise) is pervasive in every industry. I don't think that big name media outlets should be considered the only reliable sources on issues of sexual harassment. Outlets that focus on a single industry are uniquely positioned to be able to reliably report on harassment in their industries (they have contacts/sources and industry context). Polygon is a reliable source on the gaming industry and has a history of covering harassment when it occurs in the industry (here are a few articles unrelated to Zak Smith [https://www.polygon.com/2018/6/22/17494500/sexual-harassment-origins-board-game-fair 1] [https://www.polygon.com/2019/2/13/18223558/adl-anti-defamation-league-study-twitch-discord-harassment 2] [https://www.polygon.com/2020/4/6/21207309/rollplay-far-verona-sexual-assault-lets-play-season-2-canceled 3] [https://www.polygon.com/2020/7/3/21312536/evo-online-canceled-joey-cuellar-mr-wizard-sexual-abuse 4] [https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/25/21302341/video-game-tabletop-game-comics-allegations-harassment-abuse-racism-metoo 5] [https://www.polygon.com/2020/5/4/21246315/king-of-kong-billy-mitchell-sues-twin-galaxies-donkey-kong-cheating-allegations 6] [https://www.polygon.com/comics/2016/5/16/11683136/dc-comics-eddie-berganza-sex 7] [https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/29/16709796/magic-the-gathering-cosplayer-harassment-youtube 8] [https://www.polygon.com/2018/11/7/18070340/riot-games-gender-discrimination-lawsuit-class-action 9] [https://www.polygon.com/2019/5/17/18629463/riot-games-arbitration-opt-out-walk-out 10]). Polygon is also held to the same [https://www.voxmedia.com/a/vm/ethics ethical standards] as the rest of Vox Media and Vox Media cross posts articles from their different outlets (ie. A Polygon article might get posted on the Verge, a Verge article might get posted on Vox, etc). Both the Verge and Vox are on the RS list. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 06:10, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
:* In terms of examples of where Polygon is used as a source like this besides Zak Smith, here are two articles that cite link 5:
:: [[Chris Avellone]] {{Xt|In June 2020, Avellone was accused by several people of using his status to sexually assault and harass women who were looking to break into the games industry. Following these accusations, Techland announced that they and Avellone agreed to end his work on Dying Light 2.}}
:: [[Assassin%27s_Creed_Valhalla#Development|Assassin's Creed Valhalla]] {{Xt|In June 2020, Polygon reported that Ismail "said he would step down from the project following accusations of multiple extramarital affairs with younger fans. [...] Ubisoft later confirmed his departure to Polygon".}}
::[[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 16:14, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable''' Polygon have covered numerous controversial issues over the last decade. They were even at the centre of their own harassment cycle a few years back with Nick Robinson [https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/08/polygon-parts-ways-with-nick-robinson-following-twitter-claims/ (not the political journalist, nor the US actor)]. Their own standing is pretty much one of the most well established of the tech / game media hubs (per Sariel Xilo above) for exactly the sort of content of monitoring and policing their own. This is particularly true post-Gamergate, where the idea of "video games" and "video game culture" and "toxic behaviour" became intrinsically and indelibly linked for all time. However, we should be clear that we are not getting into minutiae, and we should not be creating "controversy" sections or similar sections as a means of shaming / cancelling / "Righting Great Wrongs" etc and it should be dealt with in context of the biography. [[User:Koncorde|Koncorde]] ([[User talk:Koncorde|talk]]) 06:44, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable''' All indications are that they have editorial standards in place and follow good practices. Moreover, the BLP that apparently prompted this discussion is definitely within their wheelhouse; it's not about harassment within, e.g., the Catholic Church or the American Museum of Natural History. [[User:XOR&#39;easter|XOR&#39;easter]] ([[User talk:XOR&#39;easter|talk]]) 16:22, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable''' The OP (who happens to have received his admin tools last year) is clearly engaged in forumshopping, and his failure to notify participants in an RfC that he is creating parallel discussions on this topic elsewhere is decidedly bad form. I dare say there is no news source better positioned to report on sexual conduct '''''within the gaming industry''''', which is what the actual question is in this case. 
:Also note that the OP/admin entitled the Talk page discussion {{tq|RfC: Allegations of Rape Sourced to Game Blogs and Fanzines}}, which is misleading hiven the nature of ''Polygon'' as a source. And yet this is typical of the hyperbole/mistakes to which this Admin is liable, at least within the subject matter of gaming.[[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 16:38, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable'''. A news website that specializes in covering a particular industry should be considered reliable for covering all aspects of the industry, good or bad. The OP here has not shown any reason why Polygon can't be considered reliable in this instance. '''<span style="border: 1px #8C001A solid;background:#8C001A">[[User talk:Calidum|<span style="color: #FFFDD0;">Calidum</span>]]</span>''' 20:15, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable''' they are reliable for coverage of the industry and related. Doesn’t seem like this should have really been in question. OP’s conduct does appear to be questionable, that probably needs to be looked into. [[User:Horse Eye Jack|Horse Eye Jack]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye Jack|talk]]) 18:18, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable''', and the specific citation of [[WP:CONTEXTMATTERS]] to support the opposite position is weird, since that's the specific policy that makes Polygon relevant in a discussion about industry individuals. [[User:Grandpallama|Grandpallama]] ([[User talk:Grandpallama|talk]]) 22:02, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

== faluninfo.net ==

* {{duses|faluninfo.net}}
This is cited a number of times but appears to be an activist website for the Falun Gong cult, of no obvious reliability. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 22:29, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
:They claim to be the press office for Falun Gong. [https://faluninfo.net/about-us-our-mission/] They're clearly a self published source and we should treat them as we do any other "information" websites for religious movements. [[WP:ABOUTSELF]] likely applies here, assuming they're telling the truth about their affiliations. [[User:Chess|Chess]] [[User talk:Chess|(talk)]] <small>(please use&#32;{{tlx|ping|Chess}} on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 23:01, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

:Unreliable. This website is absolutely a mouthpiece for the [[Falun Gong]] (a.k.a. Falun Dafa), as described by independent researcher Noah Porter who has written a number of scholarly articles about Falun Gong. Porter wrote in ''Falun Gong in the United States: An Ethnographic Study'' that faluninfo.net is a Falun Gong website. Benjamin Penny, another scholar who has written extensively about the Falun Gong, said in ''The Religion of Falun Gong'' (2012) that faluninfo.net is a Falun Gong website. 
:The website lists a number of staff[https://faluninfo.net/about-us-our-staff/] who may be quoted in news sources about the Falun Gong. For instance, Levi Browde, executive director of faluninfo.net, shows up a lot in reports about the Falun Gong.[https://www.theepochtimes.com/nbc-journalists-distort-and-malign-falun-gong-to-strengthen-attack-on-rival-media_3052204.html][https://thebl.com/opinion/nbc-journalists-distort-and-malign-falun-gong-to-strengthen-attack-on-rival-media.html][https://www.qt.com.au/news/falun-gong-member-did-not-threaten-councillors-dir/3335140/][https://thediplomat.com/2016/07/after-17-years-of-persecution-falun-gong-survives/] Similarly, spokesperson Erping Zhang has written or been quoted about Falun Gong topics.[https://www.theepochtimes.com/unwavering-spirit-falun-gong-perseveres-in-china-despite-20-years-of-persecution-peter-erping-zhang_3017389.html][https://www.upi.com/News_Photos/view/upi/cdbdc6249c7c819473611da4df155256/Erping-Zhang/][https://ntdtelevision.wordpress.com/tag/erping-zhang/] I think we should count faluninfo.net unreliable, as well as any statement by a member of their staff. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 23:13, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

*Fine to use with attribution, and/or to cite the views of the Falun Gong group itself. This is basically the press office for the Falun Gong spiritual movement (dubbed a "cult" by the Chinese government, which tries to eradicate the practice through extrajudicial killings, mass imprisonment, reeducation programs, etc.)  The Falun Dafa Information Centre is frequently cited by scholars<ref>Noakes and Ford, "Managing Political Opposition Groups in China: Explaining the Continuing Anti-Falun Gong Campaign", China Quarterly (2015) pp. 678</ref><ref name="Pennyreligion">{{Cite book |authorlink=Benjamin Penny  |first=Benjamin  |last=Penny |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=P6Z6fQ7Fg3QC |title=The Religion of Falun Gong |publisher=University of Chicago Press |year=2012 |isbn=978-0-226-65501-7  |ref=harv}}</ref><ref>{cite book |last=Ownby |first=David |year=2008 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Bwqkwx4SWS0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=ownby+falun&cd=1#v=onepage |title=Falun Gong and the Future of China |publisher=Oxford University Press |isbn=978-0-19-532905-6}}</ref>, human rights groups<ref>{{Cite book |url=https://www.amnesty.org/es/documents/asa17/042/2013/es/ |title=Changing the soup but not the medicine: Abolishing re-education through labor in China |last=Amnesty International |date=Dec 2013 |location=London |df=dmy-all}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |author=Freedom House |url=https://freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/12222014_FH_ChinaReport2014_FINAL.pdf |title=The Politburo's Predicament: Confronting the Limitations of Communist Party Repression |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160417122423/https://freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/12222014_FH_ChinaReport2014_FINAL.pdf |archive-date=17 April 2016  |date=January 2015}}</ref>, and government bodies<ref>{{cite report |author=Congressional Executive Commission on China   |url=http://www.cecc.gov/publications/annual-reports/2008-annual-report |title=Annual Report 2008 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20141207021417/http://www.cecc.gov/publications/annual-reports/2008-annual-report |archive-date=7 December 2014 |date=31 October 2008}</ref><ref>Congressional Executive Commission on China, [https://www.cecc.gov/sites/chinacommission.house.gov/files/documents/2015%20AR%20Religion.pdf annual report 2015]</ref>. It is sometimes treated as a reliable source in itself, or as a reliable source for the views of Falun Gong. Sometimes it's cited the caveat that data related to the persecution in China published by the Falun Dafa Information Centre cannot be independently verified. We can do the same on the encyclopedia.[[User:TheBlueCanoe|'''<span style="color:black">The</span><span style="color:green">Blue</span><span style="color:black">Canoe</span>''']] 05:41, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|TheBlueCanoe}}, it is a new religious movement, which is the new name for cults. Being a cult does not mean that they are not ruthlessly suppressed, just as being wildly successful litigants does not make Scientology somehow not a cult. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 08:28, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|JzG}}, when contributing to a '''reliable source noticeboard''', wouldn't it be best to keep the discussion neutral and not engage in tendentious comments about the subject in question? The entire status of the term "cult" is useless as a social science category (one woman's cult is another's religion, as the saying goes). By using this label here, other editors may well be prejudiced against the group and not refer to the actual data that should be determinative in the decision. [[User:Cleopatran Apocalypse|Cleopatran Apocalypse]] ([[User talk:Cleopatran Apocalypse|talk]]) 07:33, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

*Having visited the website and looked through it, and scanning the sources The Blue Canoe posted, I think we can say that the Falun Dafa Information Center is a reliable source for the views of the Falun Dafa Information Center, which seems to be the most professional entity Falun Gong has got to an official vehicle for communication. I.e. it's ''the'' source for Falun Gong's official view on itself and whatever else. It's a primary source so must be used with care, but it seems obviously reliable for representing Falun Gong's own views. TheBlueCanoe has shown how the source is used by human rights groups, scholars, and Congress. Thus it's a primary source, but there's no indication that it has any problems not inherent to ''all'' primary sources. [[User:Cleopatran Apocalypse|Cleopatran Apocalypse]] ([[User talk:Cleopatran Apocalypse|talk]]) 07:33, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|Cleopatran Apocalypse}}, so it's a cult's source for the cult's views, and thus useless for anything else (e.g. statements of fact about China, where it would clearly be completely unreliable). '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 08:27, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
:::I believe we should avoid referring to spiritual movements as cults in this discussion. "Cult" is a very loaded term typically used as an insult and I don't see why it's necessary to insult someone's spirituality in this discussion about whether or not Falun Info is a reliable source. Regardless of whether you're right, insulting other people's spirituality is liable to cause flame wars and cause problems with harmonious editing. It potentially violates [[WP:NPA]] as well as the policy explicitly states that "Abusive, defamatory, or derogatory phrases based on... religious or political beliefs... directed against another editor or a group of editors" aren't allowed. Right now you're using a derogatory phrase about a religious belief and while you're not insulting anyone in particular there are certainly editors who subscribe to the belief system of [[Falun Gong]]. [[User:Chess|Chess]] [[User talk:Chess|(talk)]] <small>(please use&#32;{{tlx|ping|Chess}} on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 19:05, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}
:*'''Obviously not reliable'''. Falun Gong is not a reliable source about itself: Keep in mind this is the same organization behind ''The Epoch Times'' and numerous other propaganda extensions, who are absolutely not reliable. Best to stick to secondary reliable sources on these topics for evertything about the organization and topic. Beware single-purpose accounts swarming around this topic. [[User:Bloodofox|&#58;bloodofox:]] ([[User talk:Bloodofox|talk]]) 08:01, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
::*Obvious to whom? According to what policies? It's certainly not obvious to the scholars and researchers cited above who treat the Falun Dafa Information Centre as a reliable source—either reliable in itself, or reliable for statements of Falun Gong's positions. 
::*The Falun Dafa Information Center is not "behind" the Epoch Times. These are two legally separate entities. Founders of these organizations share the same religious faith, but it makes no sense to treat religions with millions of followers as monolithic entities.[[User:TheBlueCanoe|'''<span style="color:black">The</span><span style="color:green">Blue</span><span style="color:black">Canoe</span>''']] 23:50, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
:*The normal Wikipedia policies apply here. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_and_questionable_sources_as_sources_on_themselves] Obviously Faluninfo.net is not a reliable source about anything else than ''Falun Gong's claims about itself''. As long as it's contextualized in this way, I don't see a problem from an encyclopedic perspective. I would also warn against the ideologues swarming around these articles; especially the ones who already have a history of long-term bans because of their battleground mentality, edit warring, and personal attacks in other topic areas. [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&diff=750672233&oldid=750671948#bloodofox] [[User:Bstephens393|Bstephens393]] ([[User talk:Bstephens393|talk]]) 16:38, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== Want to edit Electronic Harassment  ==
As of right now, this topic is outdated. It is full of disinformation. 
The United Nations Torture Committee has just recently condemned electronic harassment as a crime of humanity. They held a video taped press conference at the UN headquarters. It is now known as a violation of human rights. 
It is a fact this is happening to people all over the world. It does not belong under medical topics or psychological illnesses. It is not a delusion and the UN has admitted it is a fact this happens to targeted individuals. 

Which leads to the Targeted Individuals page needing to be edited as well. It is not a delusion it is reality. 

My proof is this article, one of four pdf on the torture committee site.  Official link is at the bottom. 


 – — ° ′ ″ ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥ ± − × ÷ ← → · § 

Official Report on Electronic Harassment

Electromagnetic harassment with torturous patterns (electromagnetic torture, cybernetic torture or cybertorture): “the crime that people complain most about on the internet/social media”
Relevance to neuroweapons as well as “Health Attacks" or "Health Incidents" of U.S. and Canada diplomats
Dynamics conducive to corruption and torture: Neuroweapons having top secret status similarly to “weapons of mass destruction”are expected to be subject to limited or non-existent parliamentary / congressional supervision
Electromagnetic harassment with torturous patterns has been referred to as the “crime that people complain most about on the internet/social media”. 

It is argued that the “health incidents” or “health attacks”, according to the terms of the U.S. State Department, which affected the U.S. Embassy diplomats in Cuba and China (and similarly the Canada Embassy diplomats in Cuba) are linked to this phenomenon [*]. 

A precedent is found in the microwave irradiation of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow (1953–1976) [*]. Many thousands of people internationally complain of being electromagnetically harassed with torturous patterns (electromagnetic torture, cybernetic torture or cybertorture).

Health attacks are currently the object of an interagency investigation of the U.S. government coordinated by the “Health Incident Task Force” created by the U.S. Department of State [*]. Three scientific publications present evidence of brain damage of the diplomats [*][*][*]. 


A U.S. Congressional hearing reiterated the diagnosis of brain injury as a result of the attacks [*]. The U.S. Government Accountability Office assessed the response of the State Department, published a report [*] and presented its findings to Congress [*]. 

Given the neurological nature of the attack, the technological means that would have been used are defined as neuroweapons. 

A group of experts, including the first physician who examined the U.S. diplomats, gave presentations on the health attacks at a neuroweapon event held by SOFWERX and the U.S. Special Operation Command [*]. A briefing of the Pentagon Chiefs of Staff was conducted by the same group of experts [*].

U.S. victims of electromagnetic harassment have provided comment to the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical Issues (created by President Obama) in March and May 2011 [*][*]. 

In Europe, the Ministry of Defense of Poland conducted a geographical analysis of complaints of Polish victims for electromagnetic attacks in 2016 [*]. Following correspondence with the Ministry [*], Polish victims have been heard by the Inspectorate of Innovative Defense Technologies of the Ministry of Defense.


Among different protests against electromagnetic harassment/torture, two international rallies have been held on the 29th August in 2019 and 2018 [*].

Victims of electromagnetic harassment, often called "Targeted Individuals" or "TIs" report:

1. Torturous routines such as head and body electromagnetic stimulation e.g. intense sudden contractions of (surface) muscle fibers equivalent to painful stimulus of being hit, different stimulation patterns generating miscellaneous effects e.g. pain, tingling, pins-and-needle effect and also intense heating, burning or itching sensations.

2. Artificial tinnitus, hearing voices and mental manipulation i.e. mental content presentation/insertion and extraction (personal thought content being repeated to them in an interval of a few seconds).

3. Manipulation via brain-to-brain interface: A remote human operator exerts a dominant cognitive influence determining certain functions (e.g. a motor function such as moving a limb).
Targeted Individuals are being tortured silently while certain phenomena such as "hearing the global Hum" which affects 4% of the world population [*] may be indicative of the fact that the effects are being experienced by a much larger population than that of targeted individuals.

Given the extremely advanced nature of the symptoms reported, e.g. mental manipulation, the associated neuroweapons, also termed “weapons of mass disruption” should be considered equivalent, in terms of national security, to “weapons of mass destruction”. 

It is expected that these would be top secret, would be handled only by few people in the highest military ranks, and would probably be subject to limited or non-existent parliamentary/congressional supervision (cf. generic reporting citing indispensable covert national security operations). 

This setting would cancel institutional controls, thereby creating environments conducive to corruption.
It is important that society addresses electromagnetic harassment with torturous patterns or electromagnetic torture (cybernetic torture or cybertorture). 

It constitutes a significant human rights issue with severe risks on the health, well-being and the life of individuals. It is also important to comprehend the implications, as the complaints of the targeted individuals referring to both torture as well as mental manipulation may be indicative of a future where mental interference may be performed in large scale with imperceptible nuances and nudging of thinking towards certain directions e.g. for political or economic interference. It is urgent to address this phenomenon.

<ref>https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Torture/Call/Individuals/ElectromagneticTorture.pdf</ref>

<ref>https://search.ohchr.org/results.aspx?k=Cybertorture</ref>

𝔍𝖚𝖑𝖎𝖊𝖙❤𝕯𝖎𝖑𝖑𝖎𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖗

== Reliability of Box Office Mojo ==
{{Atop|result=Withdrawn}}
Hi, Ainz Ooal Gown is here. I am currently trying to improve [[Weathering with You]] to GA status. When working on this article, I noticed that the total worldwide gross of the movie is reported differently on multiple websites. Hollywood Reporter says that Weathering with You grossed 357 million dollar worldwide.
<blockquote>That smash hit, which became the second-highest-grossing anime film of all time after it topped $357 million worldwide, is a hard act to follow.</blockquote>
Source: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/review/weathering-you-1239736
But on the other hand, [[Box Office Mojo]] says it grossed 193,145,004USD worldwide.<br/>
Source: https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt9426210/

Now I am in a dilema on which source I should use to cite the box office earnings.

Note that [[Box Office Mojo]] is owned by [[IMDb]] and it it's official brand name is "Box Office Mojo by IMDbPro" indicating that its affiliation with IMDb database. Citing IMDb is prohibited since it is a user generated database and thus unreliable, as per [[WP:CITEIMDB]]. 

I checked that BOM is frequently cited in film articles and there is no major discussion on wiki about its reliability. Please provide your opinion on this. Yours sincerely, [[User:Ainz Ooal Gown|Ainz Ooal Gown]] ([[User talk:Ainz Ooal Gown|talk]]) 20:39, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
:You are using the wrong link. The articles says {{tq|Makoto Shinkai’s long-awaited anime follow-up to his 2017 Your Name. That smash hit, which became the second-highest-grossing anime film of all time after it topped $357 million worldwide, is a hard act to follow.}} This is supported by [https://www.boxofficemojo.com/releasegroup/gr2548322821/ BOM] which says $357,986,087 or  $357 million at 3 significant figures. --[[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 20:52, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
::{{Re|Emir of Wikipedia}} can't believe I missed that. [[WP:TROUT]] to myself. [[User:Ainz Ooal Gown|Ainz Ooal Gown]] ([[User talk:Ainz Ooal Gown|talk]]) 21:13, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
{{Abot}}

== vehlinggo.com ==

Hello, 

In order to reference it in an article I am writing, I'd like to know if https://vehlinggo.com is considered by Wikipedia as a reliable source.
Thank you very much for your help!<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Allichou|Allichou]] ([[User talk:Allichou#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Allichou|contribs]]) 22:53, 13 July 2020 (UTC)</small>
:{{ping|Allichou}} for what topic and content? Which piece? From what I see from [https://vehlinggo.com/about/ their about], it a one-man show ("Vehlinggo is the creation of longtime journalist and writer Aaron Vehling. He serves as Vehlinggo’s publisher, editor-in-chief, senior writer, and occasional podcaster.") with some contributors in addition to Vehling, which would make it borderline for most content.--[[User:Bob not snob|Bob not snob]] ([[User talk:Bob not snob|talk]]) 07:20, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

== The Intercept and politics ==

Is [[The Intercept]] considered a reliable source in the context of political news? Its page on [[WP:RS/P]] only mentions that it is "generally reliable for news" but "is a biased source and its use may need to be attributed". The two discussions linked don't seem to cover its political reporting, with the first discussing it in a general manner and the second in reporting on science (in this case, the Amazon rainforest). [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] <sup>[[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|t]][[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|c]][[WP:CSD|csd]][[Special:Newpages|new]]</sup> 17:43, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
<br>
Edit: Just for clarification, this question is with regards to The Intercept as a source for political news specifically (whether it be government-related, election-related, etc.), not about its reliability in general news reporting. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] <sup>[[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|t]][[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|c]][[WP:CSD|csd]][[Special:Newpages|new]]</sup> 01:56, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Attribute for political reporting''' I would consider The Intercept to be a usable source for political reporting, but it should be attributed. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 18:08, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Not reliable''' Relevant data point. In 2011, in one private email, Neera Tanden (responding to an email titled "Re: Should Libya pay us back?") cited the US deficit, said "having oil rich countries partially pay us back doesn't seem crazy to me." Compare and contrast what Tanden said to what the ''Intercept'' claimed:[https://theintercept.com/2015/11/05/leaked-emails-from-pro-clinton-group-reveal-censorship-of-staff-on-israel-aipac-pandering-warped-militarism/] "Other emails <nowiki>[sic.]</nowiki> show Tanden arguing that Libyans should be forced to turn over large portions of their oil revenues to repay the U.S." [[User:HouseOfChange|HouseOfChange]] ([[User talk:HouseOfChange|talk]]) 18:27, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
::Instead of quoting one email and assuming that it is the same as the "other emails" mentioned, did Tanden ever actually say that Greenwald got it wrong?  You can see Tanden's response to the ''Intercept'' story in this article in ''Salon''.[https://www.salon.com/2016/06/20/trump_proposed_taking_libyas_oil_in_return_for_bombing_it_just_like_clinton_ally_neera_tanden/] Second, even if you establish that [[Glenn Greenwald]] said one thing and [[Neera Tanden]] said another thing, on what basis do you conclude that Tanden is telling the truth and Greenwald is lying?  --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 01:43, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable with attribution''' Have the usual editorial controls and are frequently cited for their investigative reports. They tend to be a tad sketchy on source origins (not the rigor of like WaPost, but not completely back-alley sourcing) so would require attribution of anything contestable. The example by HouseOfChange to me looks like a common slight stretch of the truth that many other sources will do and nothing that raising any immediate flags (compared to Daily Mail falsification). --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 20:22, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
:: It is falsification, and literally false, to transform one vague sentence in one email into multiple "emails" and "arguing that Libyans should be forced to turn over large portions of their oil revenues." [[User:HouseOfChange|HouseOfChange]] ([[User talk:HouseOfChange|talk]]) 00:09, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
:::Do you know how many emails there were for certain, particularly when one email is "private"? Perhaps the Intercept had access to additional emails. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 00:57, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
::::These were the stolen Podesta emails, and the Libya claims from Intercept were widely chewed over by their ecosystem. But the only evidence any of these folks ever brought forward to support those claims was that one email. So perhaps they had more secret evidence that they concealed but it seems unlikely. [[User:HouseOfChange|HouseOfChange]] ([[User talk:HouseOfChange|talk]]) 01:39, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
:::::And you know that "These were the stolen Podesta emails"... how? The story simply says "The emails, provided to The Intercept by a source authorized to receive them..." You are accusing ''The Intercept'' of bald faced lying about there being multiple emails. Can you point to a source where Tanden claimed that there was only one? Or even a source that shows Tanden saying that ''The Intercept'' got it wrong instead of saying her internal private emails don't reflect the official CAP position? Evidence, please. --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 01:55, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable for news, but with attribution for opinions''' - as with all sources that publish political opinions/analysis/commentary rather than simply reporting the news about an election, a natural disaster, double homicide, bridge collapse, etc. [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D"><sup>Atsme</sup></span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Atsme|<small>Talk</small>]]</sub> [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 00:51, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Biased but reliable. Reliable for news, attribute for political reporting and opinion.''' --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 01:46, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Generally reliable for political news with [[WP:INTEXT|attribution]]'''. ''[[The Intercept]]'' has a reputation for high-quality investigative journalism, particularly with its stories based on leaked official documents, and has significantly contributed to the coverage of topics including the [[PRISM (surveillance program)|PRISM surveillance program]], [[Operation Socialist]], the [[Drone Papers]], and other controversies related to international politics. The publication does explicitly declare a point of view, as it states that it is {{tq|"[https://theintercept.com/about/ dedicated to holding the powerful accountable through fearless, adversarial journalism]"}}, and I recommend [[WP:INTEXT|in-text attribution]] on this basis. However, this point of view has not harmed ''The Intercept''{{'}}s reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 05:07, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Question''' does the Intercept make a difference between factual news and opinion?--[[User:ReyHahn|ReyHahn]] ([[User talk:ReyHahn|talk]]) 09:55, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
*: Yes, ''The Intercept''{{'}}s opinion pieces are placed under their [https://theintercept.com/voices/ "Voices"] opinion section. If either {{code|_VOICES}} or the name of one of the publication's [https://theintercept.com/voices/ columnists] is on the top-left of the page, it is an opinion piece. They [https://theintercept.com/how-to-pitch-to-the-intercept/ ask for opinion pitches] to be labeled explicitly. —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 10:42, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Reliable''' for news but '''Requires attribution''' for comment, due to bias. It is open about its bias and has a record of strong factual reporting. I tend not to use it, though, because a reliable source presented in the context of a wrapper of biased commentary is not ideal. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 13:21, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Reliable''' and '''attribute''' for political reporting. The outlet has broken a number of important stories, and it has a solid history (and has issued retractions in the past, in a manner much clearer than other outlets). [[User:Jlevi|Jlevi]] ([[User talk:Jlevi|talk]]) 13:42, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Needs attribution''' According to [[Jewish Telegraph Agency]], ''The Intercept''{{'}}s founder "has relentlessly criticized Israel and its political leadership, and at times has invoked tropes of [[dual loyalty]] in attacking the pro-Israel community". ''[[Politico]]'' described the website as "the loudest voice attacking Democrats from the left".<ref>{{cite news |last1=Friedman |first1=Gabe |title=New York Times hires opinion editor from The Intercept, a news site that's harshly critical of Israel |url=https://www.jta.org/quick-reads/new-york-times-hires-opinion-editor-from-the-intercept-a-news-site-thats-harshly-critical-of-israel |accessdate=25 June 2020 |work=Jewish Telegraphic Agency |date=23 June 2020}}</ref> <span style="background:Black;padding:1px 5px">[[User:Buidhe|<b style="color: White">b</b>]][[User talk:Buidhe|<b style="color: White">uidh</b>]][[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|<b style="color: White">e</b>]]</span> 09:41, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|Buidhe}}, sure, but does anyone without a dog in the fight say that? We know from long experience that any criticism of the apartheid regime in the occupied territories is represented by some Jewish commentators as anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism and hatred of Israel. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 18:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
*::I'm not going to say what my personal opinion is, I am just stating one of the Intercept's biases so that editors are aware what its viewpoint is. <span style="background:Black;padding:1px 5px">[[User:Buidhe|<b style="color: White">b</b>]][[User talk:Buidhe|<b style="color: White">uidh</b>]][[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|<b style="color: White">e</b>]]</span> 20:51, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
{{talk ref}}
*I agree with the current consensus that it's generally reliable for facts but it's a very strongly biased news source. While it doesn't appear to be to the point of outright lies, their presentation and contextualization of the facts they present are heavily affected by their bias. Their incredibly strong anti-Israel position is also noted here and I believe we should attribute as well as consider it generally unreliable for factual statements relating to that conflict on account of their strong bias. For example, take a look at this article (not labelled as "voices" or by an opinion writer). [https://theintercept.com/2020/02/06/alex-odeh-bombing-israel/] It goes into a very detailed account that almost (but not quite) says that two people murdered a Palestinian activist named Alex Odeh that's written with a very clear slant towards only one side of the issue. It then makes a claim that multiple people living in Israel with different names are the suspects in the killing. While it's quite possible these claims are true, the article is very heavily biased towards one side of the issue at hand with practically no opposing views in the article beyond those used to advance the author's clear agenda. I would not be comfortable with this being used in a [[WP:BLP]] on the suspects in this case without other corrobating sources. Likewise with these two articles [https://theintercept.com/2019/05/01/betty-mccollum-israel-palestine-children-bill/] [https://theintercept.com/2019/04/10/netanyahu-set-victory-israelis-vote-never-ending-military-rule-palestinians/] that very clearly show deep bias on this conflict. We should consider using other sources if possible when discussing facts relating to this topic. 
:Additionally, for their investigative journalism we should ''always'' attribute, as investigative journalism is much closer to a primary source than a secondary source. This is common sense but should be re-iterated. [[User:Chess|Chess]] [[User talk:Chess|(talk)]] <small>(please use&#32;{{tlx|ping|Chess}} on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 05:34, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Reliable for news; attribute opinions.''' - '''[[User:DoubleCross|<span style="color:#FF1800">DoubleCross</span>]]''' ([[User talk:DoubleCross|<span style="color:#FF1800">'''‡'''</span>]]) 17:56, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Reliable'''. Time and again they are proven right even on stories where other reliable sources are initially skeptical. This includes American politics but also reporting on Operation Carwash in Brazil. [[User:Connor Behan|Connor Behan]] ([[User talk:Connor Behan|talk]]) 02:18, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Attribute for reporting'''. Other media mostly attributes. ''The Intercept'' did produce some notable investigative journalism pieces, however most of each reporting is of a lower caliber (also [[The Intercept#Juan M. Thompson scandal|fabrication scandal]]) and mixes advocacy, or as The Intercept puts its: "dedicated to holding the powerful accountable through fearless, adversarial journalism"[https://theintercept.com/about/]. Beyond the stated "adversarial journalism", politically The Intercept is very much to the left of most other reporting.--[[User:Bob not snob|Bob not snob]] ([[User talk:Bob not snob|talk]]) 09:20, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable''' for news, '''attribute''' for opinion. Wether or not it is reliable for news should depend on one thing: it's "track-record". And its  "track-record" for getting the news right is excellent, AFAIK, [[User:Huldra|Huldra]] ([[User talk:Huldra|talk]]) 20:45, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable for all news''', and as should be the case with any other news outlet, we should '''attribute opinions''' to ''The Intercept'' when describing them. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 17:16, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable''' for news and use attribution for opinion pieces, per Huldra and others. [[User:SlimVirgin|SarahSV]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</sup></small> 20:35, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable''' without attribution for news and political reporting; include opinion with attribution. If the presence of bias requires use of attribution, that would apply to almost all sources we use. <b style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8">[[User:Petrarchan47|<span style="color:#A0A0A0">petrarchan47</span>]][[User talk:Petrarchan47|<span style="color:deeppink">คุ</span>]][[Special:Contribs/Petrarchan47|<span style="color:orangered">ก</span>]]</b> 00:00, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
* '''Generally reliable''' and '''attribute opinions''', per  {{u|Atsme}}, {{u|DoubleCross}}, {{u|Huldra}}, {{u|Petrarchan47}} ''et al''.--[[User:Davide King|Davide King]] ([[User talk:Davide King|talk]]) 09:39, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
* Mostly reliable for factual reporting, but it is quick to assume things that paint what they deem as establishment or American hegemony as true. I would definitely attribute in election reporting. Note: I am politically biased against the Intercept. [[User:Mèþru|Mèþru]] ([[User talk:Mèþru|talk]]) 14:21, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

== RfC: Anti-Defamation League (ADL) ==
{{atop|There is '''consensus''' that ADL is a generally reliable source, including for topics related to hate groups and extremism in the U.S. There is '''no consensus''' that ADL must be attributed in all cases, but there is '''consensus''' that the labelling of organisations and individuals by the ADL (particularly as antisemitic) should be attributed. Some editors commented that ADL's opinion pieces are not reliable, and several wrote that they should only be used with attribution. Some editors commented that ADL is a biased source for Israel/Palestine related topics and should be used with caution, if at all. - [[user:MrX|MrX]][[user talk:MrX| 🖋]] 13:50, 15 August 2020 (UTC)}}

1. Is the ADL a generally reliable source?

2. Is the ADL a reliable source on topics related to hate groups and extremism in the United States?

3. Is the ADL reliable and/or a biased source for Israel/Palestine related topics?

4. Should the labelling of organisations and individuals by the ADL (particularly as antisemitic) be attributed?

The [[Anti-Defamation League]] has been cited around 1,000 times on Wikipedia according to {{duses|adl.org}} [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 13:31, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

=== Responses (ADL) ===
*They are reliable with attribution for whatever they say.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:20, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

*1. Yes, 2. Yes, 3. Additional considerations apply and 4. Yes. I think that the ADL is generally reliable and reliable for the topic of extremism and hate groups in the US. However, I think that for Israel/Palestine related issues, as a Pro-Israel advocacy group it is a biased source and in this area its use should be evaluated if it is due weight or not, especially in BLP articles. All labels applied by the ADL, especially to living individuals should be attributed per BLP policy. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 15:38, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
*It is not reliable for anything to do with Israel/Palestine, and one must be extremely wary of material it produces conflating criticism of 'Zionism' with anti-Semitism. It is a political lobby  with a one-eyed approach to those complex realities which are, in any case, almost always described in numerous mainstream newspaper and academic sources. See [[John Mearsheimer]], [[Stephen Walt]], '' [[The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy]],'' Penguin 2007 pp.188-196 for a damning record of its unreliability in those areas. Of course, the ADL branded that impeccably academic documented piece of forensic scholarship 'a classic conspiratorial anti-Semitic analysis invoking the canards of Jewish power and Jewish control' (M&W p.194), which just goes to prove they hadn't read the book and reply with smears when legitimate concerns about their lobbying emerge from serious critics.[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 17:35, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
*Yes, yes, reliable with attribution, yes as with any other labeling by any source. Not really much else to say that hasn't been said over and over again. [[User:Eggishorn|Eggishorn]] [[User talk:Eggishorn|(talk)]] [[Special:Contributions/Eggishorn|(contrib)]] 18:04, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
::Fair enough, it isn't on the Perennial sources list, despite qualifying for an entry and I didn't want to synthesise an entry description without a clear concensus. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 18:17, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
*1.Yes, generally. 2. Yes. 3. Less so than for 2. 4. If it was an extraordinary claim that only the ADL has made then yes I would attribute, the vast majority of their designations are not extraordinary claims however. [[User:Horse Eye Jack|Horse Eye Jack]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye Jack|talk]]) 18:09, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
* I do not know. General awareness makes me assume it is fine, but I haven't looked into this much. I notice that ADL separates its [https://www.adl.org/news/in-the-news news] from its [https://www.adl.org/blog blogs] from its [https://www.adl.org/press/press-releases press releases], which is a good sign, and it clearly separates its articles from its op-eds. What this means exactly for an advocacy organization, I don't know. They include a [https://www.adl.org/news/in-the-news collection] of instances in which they are cited by news and academic outlets, and I have personally/organically come across both attributed and un-attributed citations to the ADL when reading serious work on extremism. This indicates a reasonably strong [[WP:UBO]] argument. However, I have been unable to find a clear description of their editorial policies (though their website is massive, with lots of little pockets, so it may exist somewhere). Again, my gut reaction is similar to others': Yes/Yes/Less so, but still usable. But I don't have good justification for that.  [[User:Jlevi|Jlevi]] ([[User talk:Jlevi|talk]])
:: Eh. Glancing through the past discussions, there is clear consensus that this is a strong, attribution-requiring source. It's used plenty in all the sources that matter. I remain a little surprised that there's been no discussion of this source's particular editorial processes (Has it ever issued retractions? Does it clearly mark edits to articles? Who exactly provides editorial oversight?), but it looks plenty strong. If I'm missing that discussion, I would love to see it linked for reference. Yes+Attribute/Yes+Attribute/Yes+Attribute. [[User:Jlevi|Jlevi]] ([[User talk:Jlevi|talk]]) 00:20, 3 July 2020 (UTC) 
* Still reliable with attribution, same as all the previous times. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 00:14, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
*Has a strong record of accuracy and is reliable with attribution, although it may not be the best source for all content. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 00:31, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
* It's about as reliable as the the SPLC on issues of general hate groups. Their opinions should be generally attributed much like the SPLC. Additionally, anti-Zionism is in a lot of cases anti-Semitism by a different name. [https://antisemitism.adl.org/anti-zionism/] For example, the [[Zionist occupation government]] conspiracy theory which states that Jews secretly cotnrol many governments. Likewise with using anti-Semitic canards such as cartoons of hook-nosed people making Palestinians into Matzah. Just because the ADL treats criticisms of Zionism as often being anti-Semitic does not make it an unreliable source as some editors describe. The reason why the ADL shouldn't be generally used as a source for ''facts'' with respect to Israel/Palestine is because it is decidedly not neutral in that conflict. They are decidedly pro-Zionism and they're an interest group in that regard. They're too biased and in all honesty we should be attributing in general. [[User:Chess|Chess]] [[User talk:Chess|(talk)]] <small>(please use&#32;{{tlx|ping|Chess}} on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 00:35, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
:: It's fine on general hate issues but I differ re 'In a lot of cases'. If you trawl the internet, twitter, facebook etc or the global streets, and go ballistic at every piece of prejudice and idiocy in slogans, cartoons and banners, then we are in a great age of existential threats to Jews (and a huge number of other ethnic groups, for that matter). If you live in reality, and recall intimately what programmatic anti-Semitism meant for Jews in its 'classic' cases, then, unlike the ADL, you will note that talk of a [[New anti-Semitism]] is basically a cynical calculation for [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism#Accusations_of_misuse_of_the_term_to_stifle_criticism_of_Israel rhetorically gaming language] in order to shut down or silencing dissent in the ranks, or seed the idea that criticism of Israel's devastation of Palestinian nationalist aspirations must be vetted by an appropriate committee before it can be deemed legitimate or anti-Semitic.  The ADL [https://www.adl.org/resources/tools-and-strategies/what-is-anti-israel-anti-semitic-anti-zionist virtually equates] [[Timeline of anti-Zionism|Anti-Zionism]] with anti-Semitism. It has repeatedly and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Judt#Israel shamelessly gone for the jugular] of historians and thinkers of the stature of [[Tony Judt]] for daring to state the obvious about what actually goes on in the occupation. With that record, in any other context, Wikipedia would almost automatically adopt a very guarded attitude towards the general use of a source like the ADL which has had a very noble role in identifying and combating discrimination until it began to use its weight on the IP issue. We make an exception here because of the usual sensitivities, so fragile that someone like myself can't edit any topic on Jewish history without suffering an automatic revert on the apparent belief among several editors that I must be, if not anti-Semitic, then certainly 'anti-Israel', even if I am making an edit on obscure points like [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jewish_religious_clothing&diff=891680087&oldid=891557196 halakhic dress codes]   or [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jewish_religious_clothing&diff=890183609&oldid=890136314 Islamic/Abbasid stereotyping] to Jews in their community. 
::Official lobbies,government sources, think tanks, anti-terror agencies, activist bodies with no record for careful fact evaluation,  for whatever interest groups, are overused on Wikipedia. If you want fairly accurate information on most of the topics they are cited for their opinions on, there is more often than not a fairly ample body of material put out by peer-reviewed scholars, or competent critics, in specialized journals or cautious mainstream sources. We don't want opinions here ('according to this lobby, that think tank'), but ascertained or verifiable facts. These cautions are particularly true given the intense lobbying to get the [[Working Definition of Antisemitism]] pushed by the [[International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance]] to inflect legislation in a way that challenges free speech in numerous countries. [[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 08:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
:::This looks like Nishidani's opinion about what they consider to be antisemitism rather than a useful evaluation of the source's accuracy, and goes far off topic. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 09:23, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
::::I nowhere pretend to define anti-Semitism. I could write a densely footnoted article on the ADL's targeting of legitimate critics. I thought the Judt case, enough. One could quote, contra, its defense of [[George Soros]] for slurs about his Jewishness, no problem, but when its 2016 survey of anti-Semitism in the US identifies anti-Semitism as highest among the elderly and poor, and other bodies like PEW found that these elderly folks that the highest index of sympathy for Israel, you understand immediately the flaws in the ADL polling model (11 pages). The ADL model would have it that if you are pro-Israel, you are not anti-Semitic, against a lot of evidence to the contrary. The ADL accurately represented its own view. It did not accurately grasp that the results it got were flawed by lack of sophisticated analysis (compare [https://cst.org.uk/public/data/file/7/4/JPR.2017.Antisemitism%20in%20contemporary%20Great%20Britain.pdf the excellent methodology of Staetsky's analysis, 82 pages] of such trends in the UK). Editors who 'vote' should have some widespread familiarity with the topic and the relevant research, in order to evaluate the worthiness or not of bodies like the ADL which have put at risk their justified claim to be an important source for identifying hate crimes and ethnic/racial prejudices by their chronic incapacity to see that what they deplore in the US, is standard in Israel's treatment of its captive populations in Gaza and the West Bank.[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 11:33, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::I don't think this is relevant anymore to the overall discussion and is going off-topic. [[User:Chess|Chess]] [[User talk:Chess|(talk)]] <small>(please use&#32;{{tlx|ping|Chess}} on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 22:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
::::::There was no discussion of the paradox that a body devoted to anti-defamation has lost several court cases for engaging in defamation. Editors who vote should be aware of its patchy record in that regard. My remarks were totally focused on this, and it is relevant.[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 08:44, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
* Easy question. Attribute, attribute, attribute and attribute, respectively. But before using at all, look for better sources. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 08:35, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
*The group is reliable and widely used by others [[WP:RS]](which is one of signs of reliability)  but if it only source to the claim it maybe better to attribute --[[user:Shrike|Shrike]] ([[User talk:Shrike|talk]]) 08:41, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable''', without reservation, for all topics. The ADL's work on extremism is widely cited by other reliable sources and its assessments are done by experts with appropriate oversight. People designated for their hate speech often oppose the ADL or the [[Southern Poverty Law Center]], but such protests are routine, expected, and of little relevance.--[[User:Hippeus|Hippeus]] ([[User talk:Hippeus|talk]]) 11:42, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
::I.e. it is reliable, without reservation, when it calls [[Norman Finkelstein]] a Holocaust denier, lambastes two outstanding chaired academics, [[John Mearsheimer]] and [[Stephen Walt]] as promoters of anti-Semitic canards, or makes private phonecalls to cancel free speech, a talk by [[Tony Judt]]. Only on Wikipedia do we bend otherwise stringent rules about reliability this way.[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 12:57, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
*Reliable for their views as any other organization is. Perfectly fine to use as an attributed source for antisemitism in the United States. Not really a source of information on Israel/Palestine, they dont publish any original research or work on the topic afaict, only their views and just as anything is they are a reliable source for their own views. Should those views generally be included? Less so outside their area of expertise (anti-semitism in the United States), eg in I/P. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17">nableezy</span>]]''' - 15:16, 3 July 2020 (UTC)</small>
::: They seem to conflate opposition to Israeli policies and concern over Zionist influence over United States foreign policy with prejudice  against Jews. They appear to be a highly ideological Jewish nationalist group and and should absolutely not be treated as a reliable source. [[User:Jontel|Jontel]] ([[User talk:Jontel|talk]]) 19:46, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Generally reliable''', but, as always, '''use caution on I/P issues'''. On the anti-semitism question: if the alleged anti-semitism ''directly'' concerns the I/P conflict, then '''use caution'''; if it doesn't, then there's a case of [[WP:MANDY]] when the alleged anti-semites try to claim it's about Israel. <small>(I never understood how [[Ken Livingstone#Suspension from the Labour Party|blaming the Holocaust on Hitler's mental health]] or [[Jackie Walker (activist)#First investigation|blaming Jews for the transatlantic slave trade]] was criticism of Israel, for example...)</small> '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' ([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]]) 00:01, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable''' But bear in mind, like any reliable source, not every type of article published can be considered reliable, for example opinion pieces. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 21:57, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Generally reliable'''. Expert source in wide use by scholars and media. Agree with TFD that each individual type of article published needs to be considered.--[[User:Bob not snob|Bob not snob]] ([[User talk:Bob not snob|talk]]) 07:09, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Generally reliable''': Very much reliable for their work on extremist and hate groups, but does have a decent pro-Israel bias. If an organization has been labeled antisemitic by multiple groups (including the [[Southern Poverty Law Center]]), the ADL is great for backing that up. However, there have been a number of Palestinian activists labeled as antisemitic by the ADL whose great offense is opposing Israeli policy (see [[Roger Waters]], [[Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions|BDS movement]]). Generally a reliable source, but exercise some caution on Israel/Palestine matters. [[User:PickleG13|PickleG13]] ([[User talk:PickleG13|talk]]) 21:45, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Generally reliable''' on all matters concerning extremist and hate groups and individuals, with no exceptions. Complaints against the ADL are limited to those being designated and their supporters. It is an authority in the field and used by others. [[User:11Fox11|11Fox11]] ([[User talk:11Fox11|talk]]) 06:40, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Not reliable except as an attributed primary source.''' This is an activist organization (which is not [[WP:INDY|independent]] of the topic), and the claims it makes about whether some other group is or is not racist, etc., are just the primary-source opinion of ADL. While they are probably correct most of the time, there have been disputes about some of their labeling. And it really doesn't matter, because the nature of it is, by definition, primary-source opinion, like any other form of content and quality review of anything. So, ADL material can be used within [[WP:PRIMARYSOURCE]] limits, with in-text attribution (like "according to the ADL"). Many of the above commenters appear to be letting their personal socio-political feelings (i.e., their agreement with ADL's opinions) get in the way of assessing what the source actually is and does. PS, see also [[MOS:WTW]], [[WP:NPOV]], and [[WP:FRINGE]]: Sources like this should be used {{em|in the aggregate}}; if some group is to be labeled something like "white-supremacist" by Wikipedia, we need general agreement among sources that this is the case, so also cite Simon Wiesenthal Center, and the DoJ, and some others. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 20:54, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
*1? '''Yes''' 2? '''Definitely''' 3? No idea 4? Generally good practice to attribute unless it's something that many other sources also say, in which case it's not necessary.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 20:57, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable''' with attribution, specially when it comes to reporting antisemitic remarks, statistics and incidents around world.--[[User:Aroma Stylish|Aroma Stylish]] ([[User talk:Aroma Stylish|talk]]) 12:12, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reliable with attribution''' for all of 1-4. This is a respected voice. --[[User:Calthinus|Calthinus]] ([[User talk:Calthinus|talk]]) 14:52, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''1.''' depends, based on the topic area. '''2.''' Yes, with attribution. '''3.''' Generally, not reliable. '''4'''. Yes, attribute. --[[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 15:43, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
*1. Yes, 2. Yes, 3. Biased, neither exactly reliable nor unreliable, 4. Yes. I am biased towards Israel in the conflict, but I see ADL as unwilling to criticise systematic issues regarding the treatment of minorities in Israel - mainly unwilling to criticise left and right politicians who perpetuate the issues. The reliability also depends on who is in charge. If Foxman for instance were still in charge I would not consider the ADL reliable. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Mèþru|Mèþru]] ([[User talk:Mèþru#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Mèþru|contribs]]) 14:21, 15 July 2020 (UTC)</small>

=== Discussion (ADL) ===
Previous discussions of the ADL include [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_234#ADL_is_being_cited_as_a_reliable_source|1]] [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_204#And_the_ADL|2]] [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_147#ADL_website_as_source_on_noncontroversial_facts|3]] [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 13:31, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

What is the reason for holding this vote? Has the reliability of ADL been challenged? While the group is partisan, to the best of my knowledge, the information it publishes is mostly factually correct. [[User:ImTheIP|ImTheIP]] ([[User talk:ImTheIP|talk]]) 20:52, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
: I wanted to get a proper concensus, especially on I/P issues so that I could write up a proper Perennial Sources entry, as I felt uncomfortable synthesising a conclusion from the aforementioned 3 discussions. By simply asking if it was reliable I wanted to get concensus on base level of reliability, not that I thought that the ADL was unreliable to begin with. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 21:04, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

*{{ping|Nishidani}} - You cite the case of Tony Judt, in which the directory of the ADL does seem to have interceded behind the scenes to get Judt cancelled. While this obviously calls into question the depth of the ADL's commitment to free speech, at least during Foxman's tenure, I don't see how it bears on the reliability of the ADL's published materials, which is the matter under consideration. Do you have any clear example of distortion or fabrication by the ADL in materials that we might appeal to as sources? &mdash; [[User:Chalst|''Charles Stewart'']] <small>[[User_talk:Chalst|(talk)]]</small> 06:24, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
:One can distort or fabricate information. One can create the same misprisions by systematically discussing an issue while rigorously keeping mum about key factors of prejudice, racism and discriminatory, things that are broadly acknowledged. This is what the ADL does in the case of the I/P conflict, reports of anti-Zionism/anti-Semitism linked not to Jews personally, but to positions taken with regard to the practices of the Israeli government in the occupied territories ([https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Israeli_occupation_of_the_West_Bank&oldid=871326741  summed up here][[WP:TLDR]]). Were anything like a smidgeon of that record of systematic grief visited on a captive population attested for any community elsewhere, the ADL would be utterly mobilized and outraged. Anything they publish on these themes is skewed by the decision to gloss over relevant data. So, the ADL's fine generally, but not worth quoting on that range of issues. There its scrupulous defense of rights collapses. One should not lend it therefore a blanket approval as reliable for anything.[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 12:03, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Jacobin ==
What is the reliability of [[Jacobin (magazine)|Jacobin]], particularly on the issues of economic and political reporting? It's not currently listed at [[WP:RSP]] and a search through the archives didn't find any discussions on Jacobin specifically, usually only passing mentions. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] <sup>[[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|t]][[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|c]][[WP:CSD|csd]][[Special:Newpages|new]]</sup> 02:50, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
*It is a strongly biased opinion magazine, so usable for the attributed opinion of contributors. I would not consider it generally reliable for facts according to the usual test: If I read something in Jacobin and not any other source, I would not believe it was true without confirmation. <span style="background:Black;padding:1px 5px">[[User:Buidhe|<b style="color: White">b</b>]][[User talk:Buidhe|<b style="color: White">uidh</b>]][[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|<b style="color: White">e</b>]]</span> 05:46, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
*While it is a Magazine that focuses particularly on economic and political reporting with a strong left/socialist bias, [https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/jacobin/ mediabiasfactcheck.com] rates their factual reporting as "high", noting that "they have not failed a fact check" yet. [[User:Mottezen|Mottezen]] ([[User talk:Mottezen|talk]]) 06:57, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|Mottezen}}, [[WP:MBFC]] is not a reliable source. <span style="background:Black;padding:1px 5px">[[User:Buidhe|<b style="color: White">b</b>]][[User talk:Buidhe|<b style="color: White">uidh</b>]][[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|<b style="color: White">e</b>]]</span> 08:18, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
*::Sure, but the commentary on the page I linked is way more inciteful than the 3 comments in this section that say it "it is not reliable enough for reporting facts in relation to economic and political news" or "Yellow-rated at best". No example or evidence were provided to show its so-called unreliability for these topics. [[User:Mottezen|Mottezen]] ([[User talk:Mottezen|talk]]) 17:36, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
*:::No source is considered reliable by default. Supporters of a source being reliable must show that it has "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" per [[WP:RS]]. <span style="background:Black;padding:1px 5px">[[User:Buidhe|<b style="color: White">b</b>]][[User talk:Buidhe|<b style="color: White">uidh</b>]][[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|<b style="color: White">e</b>]]</span> 17:51, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
*::::Good, now we return to my original comment. [[User:Mottezen|Mottezen]] ([[User talk:Mottezen|talk]]) 18:03, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
*Expressly and proudly partisan source. Not actually liars as far as I know, but I would use any other source. '''Yellow-rated at best, use attribution''' - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 10:12, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
*I suspect it is not reliable enough for reporting facts in relation to economic and political news, as articles on that topic would be opinion pieces. However, I think that some articles may be used for some specialist historical issues e.g. around the history of the left. [https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/05/antifascist-movements-hitler-nazis-kpd-spd-germany-cold-war This article], for example, is used in some of our historical WP articles on the history of anti-fascism, and seems solidly researched. [https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/06/russian-revolution-antisemitism-pogroms-reactionary-workers This article] is by an academic who has published a book on this historical topic, antisemitism among the Bolsheviks, which seems like it would be a reliable source for that sort of topic. [[User:Bobfrombrockley|BobFromBrockley]] ([[User talk:Bobfrombrockley|talk]]) 13:29, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
*It is pointless to go through tens of thousands of magaxines and determining which ones to add to the blacklist. Editors should have the basic skills to determine if a source is the best and most reliable for the article they are writing. That means, as [[User:Bobfrombrockley|User:Bobfrombrockley]] points out, we might want to use them as a source for topics that the mainstream media ignore and most readers are interested in. In my experience the only reason editors use alternative media for articles about major topics is if they contain information ignored in mainstream media. IOW information that lacks weight for inclusion. We shouldn't use rs to correct for errors not following weight. BTW most ''Jacobin'' articles are opinion pieces which are not reliable sources wherever they are published. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 20:55, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
:::This isn't a discussion to deprecate or blacklist Jacobin, only a discussion on its reliability (and perhaps how to list it at [[WP:RSP]]). [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] <sup>[[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|t]][[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|c]][[WP:CSD|csd]][[Special:Newpages|new]]</sup> 23:23, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
::::Probably a bit early to list on RSP at this point (especially given the recent RfC on RSP RfCs). In any case, I haven't seen many cases of inappropriate usage. [[User:Jlevi|Jlevi]] ([[User talk:Jlevi|talk]]) 19:46, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
::Agree with the above, that Jacobin articles should be treated more like opinion pieces, and in using them (with attribution), the political orientation of the magazine should be borne in mind (e.g. views are representative of the type of people who don't think "Jacobin" is a pejorative). I don't think that completely precludes use, however, and even in opinion articles, the facts relied on may be correct. [[User:TheBlueCanoe|'''<span style="color:black">The</span><span style="color:green">Blue</span><span style="color:black">Canoe</span>''']] 23:10, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
*Unreliable. I don't see it as anything more than a socialist propaganda outlet. It's obviously going to lean to the left and thus it is too [[Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Bias_in_sources|biased]] to be used. At best it could ''maybe'' be used only if accompanied by other sources that don't conform to its point of view, as a means of balancing said bias. ''[[User:SolarFlash|Solar'''Flash''']]''[[User Talk:SolarFlash|<sup style="color:#03F">Discussion</sup>]] 23:37, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
::A source being biased does not necessarily mean it's unreliable. Those two aspects are usually independent of each other, although in some cases they do correlate. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] <sup>[[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|t]][[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|c]][[WP:CSD|csd]][[Special:Newpages|new]]</sup> 01:25, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
:::It's clearly fact based, with a fact-checking process. It's connected to a peer-reviewed journal Catalyst and many of its contributors are academics. It also has fairly accomplished journalists writing for it. It's definitely ideologically driven though – but I suppose being ideological and also fact-based isn't necessarily a contradiction. I see it cited often in NYT and elsewhere. [[User:Dsakey1978|Dsakey1978]] ([[User talk:Dsakey1978|talk]]) 03:43, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Generally reliable''' but not always due. The source is cited fairly widely in left-leaning sources, including plenty that are far more moderate than Jacobin itself. The outlet is described as one of the most important sources representing the young left. For that reason, it may be useful where that viewpoint should be represented. For instance, [https://slate.com/business/2019/05/socialist-manifesto-bhaskar-sunkara-socialism-bernie-sanders.html Slate] describes it as, "the house organ of America’s far-left boomlet over the past decade", a [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/opinion/socialists-support-biden-election.html NYT opinion] describes it as "an influential publication among young leftists," and [https://www.vox.com/2016/3/21/11265092/jacobin-bhaskar-sunkara Vox] notes that it "has in the past five years become the leading intellectual voice of the American left." In 2013, [https://www.wired.com/2013/09/political-science-professor-figures-out-that-tech-intellectuals-earn-money-lecturing/ Wired] describes it as an emerging "intellectual outlet" alongside [[The New Inquiry]] and the LA Review of Books. Again, articles don't always need this perspective. Where they do require that perspective, however, Jacobin is a good choice. [[User:Jlevi|Jlevi]] ([[User talk:Jlevi|talk]]) 12:38, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
:: Just realized that this was about economic and political reporting specifically. Jacobin has a lot of serious academic contributors, and I would probably look to them to determine reliability before I look to the publishing outlet itself. That said, I haven't seen any major problems, and there seems to be standard editorial protocols along with a quite robust [https://jacobinmag.com/about editorial board] with 10+ full-time editors, 10+ contributing editors, and a separate editorial board. We know the editorial board actually does things, because they have issued [https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/01/bundy-retraction-whoops/ retractions] in the past and some of their editors have been the subject of profiles in the New York Times. These include a [https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/21/books/bhaskar-sunkara-editor-of-jacobin-magazine.html profile] of [[Bhaskar Sunkara]] (and the site), the site's founding editor and someone who has been in left-wing journalism for quite a while. This piece also mentions [[Corey Robin]], a Jacobin contributing editor, political science professor, and journalist. [[User:Jlevi|Jlevi]] ([[User talk:Jlevi|talk]]) 02:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
:::I don't think the arguments about Jacobin as a primarily nonfactual opinion/commentary make much sense given how Jacobin is used by others. This publication is very often referenced for statements of fact, including in peer-reviewed journals and award-winning nonfiction:
:::*Referenced (as the only reference for this fact) in ''Crashed: How a Decade of Financial Crises Changed the World'' to link the rise of Breitbart to the rise of the Tea Party. This book is pretty [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/aug/12/crashed-adam-tooze-decade-of-financal-crisis-review notable], having won the [[Lionel Gelber Prize]].
:::*Referenced to support statements about the relation between sex workers and directors in [http://unsworks.unsw.edu.au/fapi/datastream/unsworks:59501/SOURCE02?view=true a dissertation].
:::*Referenced to support statements about feminist activism in the early 2000s in [https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=ny93DwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&ots=989FPOPlkq&sig=OcEbMmxVOdb5xo9CyTmw9h65Q5I#v=snippet&q=lederer&f=false an academic book] published by the ''University of Chicago Press''.
:::*Referenced to support statements about Trump-era trade policy published in a peer-reviewed journal [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07078552.2017.1342999 here].
:::*Referenced to support statements about how Teach for America interfaces with the market for teacher labor in the flagship [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0022487118798324 peer-reviewed journal] of the [https://aacte.org/ AACTE]. 
:::*More generally, ''[https://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/2013/11/who-are-new-socialist-wunderkinds-america The New Statesman]'' notes in 2013, while Jacobin was still getting established: "Jacobin authors have been cited by columnists in Bloomberg, on the reliably liberal, pro-Democratic Party TV network MSNBC, and elsewhere in the less-than-radical-spectrum." (Note that this statement is somewhat different from ''Jacobin'' itself being cited)
:::Note that in most of these cases, statements from Jacobin are simply stated as facts, without explicit attribution. These sources are not treating these Jacobin pieces as standard opinion articles. We can look to [https://www.niemanlab.org/2014/09/jacobin-a-marxist-rag-run-on-a-lot-of-petty-bourgeois-hustle/ Nieman Lab], the Harvard journalism institute, to understand why. It describes most articles in Jacobin as "analytical essays", and it seems to place them in a vein of academic analysis for the masses. Not all pieces take this form, of course, but it makes the wide citations more understandable. [[User:Jlevi|Jlevi]] ([[User talk:Jlevi|talk]]) 00:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
* '''Unreliable''': Jacobin only publishes opinion pieces. They never do reporting. It is true that they have a lot of academics writing for them, but they are all coming from a far-left communist perspective. Moreover even those academics are writing opinion pieces. Their status on reliable sources should reflect this. The editors that claim they have a fact checking process have not shown this to be true, they have just proclaimed it to be true. Nobody that writes for them comes from a neutral perspective. I second the call for yellow at best.  [[User:BuilderJustLikeBob|BuilderJustLikeBob]] ([[User talk:BuilderJustLikeBob|talk]]) 04:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Generally reliable, attribute''', very explicitly a biased source, but that does not mean they are not reliable. They seem to have a solid reputation for factual accuracy, and they are home to numerous experts. Given their open biases towards the topics of politics and economics and opinion-based coverage it should be attributed though. [[User:Devonian Wombat|Devonian Wombat]] ([[User talk:Devonian Wombat|talk]]) 06:12, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Generally reliable''' but '''attribute opinions''' and take care regarding [[WP:DUE|due weight]], per {{u|Devonian Wombat}} and {{u|Jlevi}} above. Their focus generally seems to be more on analysis and commentary than day-to-day, shoeleather reporting; I doubt that "''Jacobin'' reports the occurrence of a specific event that nobody else does" would actually be a failure mode that happens very often. [[User:XOR&#39;easter|XOR&#39;easter]] ([[User talk:XOR&#39;easter|talk]]) 17:32, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Only usable for attributed statements of opinion'''. I would not rely on this for statements of fact (even when attributed) because it's an opinion journal, and for factual statements there will nearly always be a better source. For statements of opinion, "Jane Doe wrote X in ''Jacobin''" is fine, but agree with the [[WP:DUE|due weight]] concerns. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]<sup>[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]</sup> 04:51, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Generally reliable''' including for factual reporting on politics and economics. As someone else said “bracingly rigorous and polemical in a really thought-provoking way”. [[User:Burrobert|Burrobert]] ([[User talk:Burrobert|talk]]) 05:08, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Generally reliable''', but it could depend on the author of the specific article. The Jacobin has a lot of outstanding expert columnists who are certainly reliable sources. The Jacobin has great coverage of Central America by Hilary Goodfriend, a scholar who has also been published in many academic journals and history anthologies. Unless there's a good reason to doubt the specific facts being reported in a given article, I would definitely use this magazine as a citation. [[User:Homemade Pencils|Homemade Pencils]] ([[User talk:Homemade Pencils|talk]]) 19:13, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Attribute''' As it have clear political agenda also [[WP:DUE]] should be taken in consideration when using the source --[[user:Shrike|Shrike]] ([[User talk:Shrike|talk]]) 19:22, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Generally reliable'''. In typical articles, factual claims that aren't part of the author's own expertise are themselves attributed to sources. So in that sense citing Jacobin is just a shortcut. But for establishing that some issue has sufficient [[WP:WEIGHT]] within left wing politics, it definitely helps to cite Jacobin. [[User:Connor Behan|Connor Behan]] ([[User talk:Connor Behan|talk]]) 02:40, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
* I don't see Jacobin as reliable. It has no obvious basis to be represented as a reporter of fact, being priomarily an opinion / commentary journal, and its opinion is clearly biased. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 15:35, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Generally reliable'''. Attribution and weight should be established and taken on a case by case analysis per {{u|Jlevi}} ''et al''. Unlike many right-wing outlets and a few others left-wing ones, ''Jacobin''{{'}}s bias does not result in conspiracy theories, fake news, misinformation, etc. I do not think their explicit view of socialism should be used to claim its unreliablity. As long as ''Jacobin'' remains factual and reliable as it is, that should not be used as disqualifier. Most reliable sources are pro-capitalism; they may not say it so explicitly like ''Jacobin'' does in the opposite direction, yet they remain based on facts and are generally reliable. This is not science vs. pseudoscience where [[false balance]] applies. As far as I know, the main criticism of socialism from a mainstream or neoclassical perspective is that there is a lack of incentive.--[[User:Davide King|Davide King]] ([[User talk:Davide King|talk]]) 02:23, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Only usable for attributed statements of opinion''', and even then should only be used with caution per [[WP:Due weight]]. The source is explicitly and clearly biased towards promoting a political POV held by few economists and public policy experts, which will obviously slant how it covers anything. <span style="font-family:Palatino">[[User:Crossroads|'''Crossroads''']]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Crossroads|-talk-]]</sup> 20:53, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Generally reliable''' per Jlevi, who gives the best analysis I see in this discussion. I'd support using attribution always or almost always, and of course contributor's opinions are contributor's opinions, like any news source—but when those contributors are experts then it's an expert's opinion. ''Jacobin'' has a political perspective that is far from the mainstream; this is not the same as it having a ''strong bias'', which I would take to mean "is willing to sacrifice factual accuracy for political interests", and I'm not seeing any ''evidence'' of that happening here. — [[User:Bilorv|Bilorv]] ('''[[User talk:Bilorv|<span style="color:purple">talk</span>]]''') 00:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Generally reliable on facts, always good for left-wing commentary''': Jacobin does not tend to post false stories or incorrect facts, but their coverage is always going to have a socialist or left-wing bias. Nevertheless, they are a great source when providing Responses or Opinions or Reactions, since they represent a strong strain of the American leftism movement. [[User:PickleG13|PickleG13]] ([[User talk:PickleG13|talk]]) 21:47, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
*Generally reliable for factual reporting, but articles generally include lots of bias in the analysis. It may take effort to separate that from the pure fact. [[User:Mèþru|Mèþru]] ([[User talk:Mèþru|talk]]) 14:21, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Generally reliable''', but attribute opinions. Some editors here need to do a better job of understanding that partisan doesn't automatically mean unreliable, and if they don't understand that, their !votes should be discounted by the closer per the [[WP:PARTISANSOURCES]] policy, which states clearly that {{tq|reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective}}. Several others have established above that ''Jacobin'' publishes a very high-quality product, and that's sufficient for green-lighting. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 17:47, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

:It seems reliable yet heavily biased. While the factual reporting is done fine, it is also somewhat opinionated. When it comes to the [[Cold War]] they lean towards a pro-Soviet bias. However they are not entirely anti-US, and have [https://jacobinmag.com/2019/06/china-uyghur-persecution-concentration-camps released] [https://jacobinmag.com/2021/04/uyghur-oppression-ccp-surveillance-reeducation-war-on-terror criticisms] of the Chinse government.
:
:Rake a section from this article, [https://jacobinmag.com/2020/04/china-united-states-new-cold-war-nationalism-socialists Socialists Should Side With Workers — Not the Chinese or American Ruling Class]:
:
:''President Donald Trump and his cronies have repeatedly used racist terms like the “Chinese virus,” elevated conspiracy theories claiming that a lab in Wuhan intentionally released COVID-19 to devastate the US, and escalated Washington’s military standoff with Beijing by deploying a flotilla of warships to the South China Sea. Joe Biden has attacked Trump for being soft on China and released a deeply sinophobic [https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/19/biden_ad_trump_left_us_unprepared_for_epidemic_rolled_over_for_the_chinese.html ad] earlier this month.''
:
:''On the other side of the Pacific, Xi Jinping’s government has attempted to turn the pandemic — which it too mishandled initially — to its own advantage. Beijing has sent tests, ventilators, and masks to many other countries, attempting to project itself as a benevolent global power even as it refuses to concede basic labor rights to workers at home.''
:
:This is not totally one-sided. It criticizes China right after it criticizes Trump. They never once promoted a blatant lie in these two paragraphs. They're right- Trump supported conspiracy theories on COVID-19. You can see the author doesn't like either Xi nor Trump. But it doesn't change that there are several problems in this piece- Can you imagine if Wikipedia were to describe Republicans as Trumpian "cronies"? And as for Biden's ad, the main focus of that video was to attack Trump, not China.
:In [https://jacobinmag.com/2020/02/yesterdays-man-case-against-joe-biden-new-deal-reagan this] article, they use a picture of Biden with his mouth in a weird position in some attempt to make him look like a right-wing buffoon.
:Do not get me wrong. Jacobin Magazine is a very credible reference and has been applauded worldwide for its high credibility. A blacklist of the website by WIkipedia would be ludicrous. What I am trying to show is that Jacobin is an Opinion Magazine. When citing Jacobin it would in most cases be the better option to portray it as a differing viewpoint to a political argument. [[User:Dunutubble|Dunutubble]] ([[User talk:Dunutubble|talk]]) 16:59, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

== For referencing orders and awards of a particular person, are uncaptioned pictures of the person wearing the regalia acceptable sources? ==

As I have been cleaning up royalty pages (removing blogs, Royal Ark, The Royal Forums, other royalcruft) I've come across a surprisingly conserved cross-cultural trend when it comes to sourcing the sundry Titles and Honors awarded to people, which is to cite a picture of the subject wearing [what is presumed to be?] the badge/sash/medal in question. These are images such as [https://web.archive.org/web/20160303184457/http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/170585mihaianalilian1960jpg.jpg this] used to support the assertion that {{diff2|964431889|Queen Anne of Romania}} is a recipient of "Knight Grand Cross with Collar of the Order of Carol I". I interpret this as blatant [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:SYNTH]] and remove such refs whenever I see them, {{diff2|964912653|but}} {{diff2|964357169|considering}} {{diff2|964843549|how}} {{diff2|963972548|widespread}} {{diff2|963812236|this}} {{diff2|964723388|format}} {{diff2|963812072|is}}, and given that I have been {{diff2|964930745|reverted}} {{diff2|964930651|before}}, I wanted to ensure there is consensus. I couldn't immediately find a policy stating "you can't just find a picture of Prince Keith wearing what [https://web.archive.org/web/20140302014132/http://realeza.foros.ws/t141/fiestas-y-bailes-anteriores-a-una-boda-real-by-manuesevilla/15/ users on some royalty forum] or [https://www.pinterest.es/pin/353110427005055508/ pinterest] have tentatively identified as The Order of the Meticulous Hairnet and cite it as a source for his being a recipient of said honor", although I didn't look particularly hard. You also can't just wholesale delete citations of the form "[[Princess_Marie_of_Romania#cite_note-20|Images]] of Queen Bayleigh on 3 March 1991" as sometimes they ''do'' have an [https://www.romaniaregala.ro/jurnal/imagini-de-la-seara-palatului-elisabeta-7-mai-2014/ accompanying caption] explicitly mentioning the award.

So what does Wikipedia think? [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 20:23, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
:I think that someone wearing a badge indicating that they received an honor is like me putting on a t-shirt that says "#1 Curler"... it's an act of self-publication. And while we accept self-publication for people's statements about themselves, we limit it to things where people would not have a reason to lie - i.e., they are not boastful. An honor is inherently a boast. As such, no, someone pictured wearing the badge is not sufficient. --#1 Curler [[User:NatGertler|Nat Gertler]] ([[User talk:NatGertler|talk]]) 21:05, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
:{{u|JoelleJay}}, No. This is [[WP:OR]]. It requires individual Wikipedians to recognise the regalia. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 23:18, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
:I agree with Guy - it's OR. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]<sup>[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]</sup> 23:35, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
*Definitely not usable.  If it's self-published it clearly fails the {{tq|unduly self-serving}} clause of [[WP:ABOUTSELF]], and even if it's published elsewhere it is [[WP:OR]] to draw conclusions from it without some statement in the source indicating what the image means. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 01:49, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

(EC) So, the same IP ([[Special:Contributions/148.252.132.141|148.252.132.141]]) from earlier reverted me again {{diff2|965009407|here}} and {{diff2|965009495|here}} on [[Princess Marie of Romania]] to add back images (and blogs and forums) as references, despite the discussion we sort of had on the [[Talk:Princess_Marie_of_Romania#Most_of_this_article_is_sourced_to_the_family's_self-published_websites|talk page]]. It would be helpful if there was a concrete policy to point to for this (apparently not obvious) example of OR; I don't think it would aid in this case since the IP doesn't seem to care (they were [[User_talk:148.252.132.141|blocked]] 24 hrs for vandalism elsewhere on the 18th), but for good faith edits by people coming from royalty fansites it would at least be an explicit link to shoot them in an edit summary rather than trying to explain the nuances of OR. [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 02:11, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
No, not only as the identification is OR (is it the Victoria Cross or the Victorious Cross) there is the fact that it may have been self awarded.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 08:37, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Definitely not, interpretation of an image is OR. [[User:Peacemaker67|Peacemaker67]]  ([[User_talk:Peacemaker67|click to talk to me]]) 08:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

It could be enough that the original photographer verified it but caution is still required.  Generally, no. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 08:41, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

I concur with all of the above objections.  Not only does it take a Wikipedian to individually decide they recognize the medal/ribbon, it supposes that they do with exact accuracy, which cannot really be guaranteed, not only because of photo quality in modern subjects, but potential artistic license or error in old paintings.  While the results are {{em|probably}} correct in most cases, that's not how we write an encyclopedia. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 02:24, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
:I'd have to say we shouldn't (in general) rely on photos as a source. Firstly we'd need to ensure the PHOTOS are reliable, as photos are often doctored by people and a random photo could have been altered in many ways. Secondly even if the photos are real there's no guarantee the person wearing the regalia has actually been awarded the medals in question. A person wearing medals is essentially someone making the claim they were awarded the honours in question; it's certainly "unduly self serving" under the first criteria of [[WP:ABOUTSELF]]. I can post a photo of myself wearing the Medal of Honor if I want and nobody can stop me. However it's not necessarily original research to identify specific medals in a photo. Many photographs of awards are very unambiguous and while in some unclear cases it would be [[WP:OR]] to identify a medal nobody is going to dispute that [[:File:Joe Biden Receives Presidential Medal of Freedom.jpg]] is unambiguously a photo of the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Interpretation of an image isn't allowed but in very clear cases there's no interpretation or ambiguity involved.
:<s>Additionally there are cases where it probably is OK to use photos of medals as sources. For example, an uncaptioned photograph published by a reliable source of a person ''receiving'' a medal is probably OK. For example if someone finds an uncaptioned government archival photo of John Doe very clearly being awarded a Purple Heart from an officer that would be OK to use as a source because it's not "self-published", someone else is giving Doe the award, and the source (government) is reliable and it's unambiguous what a Purple Heart is. Likewise for official military portrait photos of someone which I believe are often used as an implicit source for decorations, as it's not self-published (the government creates the photo) so it doesn't fall under [[WP:ABOUTSELF]]. Take [[Mark Milley]] who's the current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The image in the article is a good enough citation for the fact he was awarded a [[Army Service Ribbon]] as you can very clearly see he's wearing the ribbon on the bottom right of his chest so it's not [[WP:OR]] to do so. There's no interpretation about it. Nor is it a self published source as it's a US government produced photo. I think that while in the cases [[User:JoelleJay]] has provided it's clear those images shouldn't be used as a source, there are definitely many other cases where it IS appropriate to use uncaptioned images as sources and we shouldn't make a general rule here without considering its broader applicability or that there may be exemptions to the rule. </s> [[User:Chess|Chess]] [[User talk:Chess|(talk)]] <small>(please use&#32;{{tlx|ping|Chess}} on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 06:27, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Chess}} My feeling is there still isn't any reason to use images as refs since, if the awarding of the honor was notable enough for there to exist photos from reliable sources, there should be supporting text somewhere as well. In the unusual circumstance that a recognizable award is visible in an official governmental/military picture but there is no ''written'' record of its reception or mention of it by an RS, then in my opinion we should not be acknowledging the award in the subject's page. It's also not clear that ''there's no interpretation about it'' regarding the Army Service Ribbon; could the average reader identify it in a portrait? For the Purple Heart medal (although not the service ribbon), I could maybe see an official picture of it being awarded as ''theoretically'' an RS on its own, but practically I find it highly unlikely this would not be accompanied by some textual detail somewhere, in which case referencing the image would be redundant. Maybe others here like [[user:JzG|Guy]], [[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]], [[User:SMcCandlish|SMcCandlish]], etc. have more insight on whether such an RS image would be DUE to include as a source ''in addition to'' a citation for a) a written account by the same source describing the events taking place in the picture; b) a written account by a ''different'' source describing the events in the picture; c) a written account otherwise verifying the subject is a recipient. Would this be an example of excessive refs, or would it just be treated the same as any other RS for a multiply-referenced statement? That is to say, does WP think an uncaptioned but evocative and unambiguous image provides further information or evidentiary support in the way a second news article or book does? My guess would be no. [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 04:05, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
::::{{ping|JoelleJay}} Probably the most important exception to creating a rule like the above would be military awards based on official portraits, as it seems to be current practice to list awards shown in the official portrait without a citation. I don't think we should override that consensus here; that's something that should be discussed on [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history]] as they appear to have had multiple discussions on this issue already. See [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 111#RfC%3A The use of medal ribbon pictograms in articles]] for example. 
::::While I agree with you that there's often not much of a reason to use uncaptioned images as sources for honours and it's hard for me to come up with scenarios where it would be necessary, that doesn't mean there might not be plenty of scenarios where it '''is''' appropriate to use uncaptioned images as sources. The point I'm more or less trying to make is that we should be flexible and not dictate a very wide rule with no exceptions in the consensus of this discussion. [[User:Chess|Chess]] [[User talk:Chess|(talk)]] <small>(please use&#32;{{tlx|ping|Chess}} on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 22:49, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::It should {{em|not}} be re-discussed at [[WT:MILHIST]]; that's a house organ of the very editors doing things that other editors consider to be OR and reliance on dubious sources or things we do not treat as sources.  This should be discussed right here, or at [[WP:NORN]], or at [[WP:VPPOL]]. The entire nature of the problem is that MILHIST (or some participants therein) have come to an in-our-little-echo-chamber decision to do what they are doing, without broader consultation, and we already know there are objections (since we're making them right now).  Wikiprojects don't get to make up their own counter-policy "rules"; cf. [[WP:CONLEVEL]]. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 02:36, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
::::::There have been many more discussions over there with far more people than there are here. Overturning that long-standing consensus as a side effect of a small discussion relating to royalty would violate the spirit of [[WP:CONLEVEL]] in favour of the letter. Just because RS/N is a more "global" board than the military history talkpage doesn't mean we should overturn multiple large discussions with a smaller one here. I support having a discussion have on the merits of including honours based on official military portraits but let's make it a separate heading and a formal RfC where we can notify the people who might actually want to contribute to this discussion. The reason why I thought it might be a good idea to have a discussion on the military history WikiProject is that they'll be significantly affected by this change and I'm unsure if any of them are aware of the discussion we're having here. [[User:Chess|Chess]] [[User talk:Chess|(talk)]] <small>(please use&#32;{{tlx|ping|Chess}} on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 04:54, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::::We have [[WP:VPPOL]] for a reason. That's pretty much always the proper venue when a wikiproject is doing something that others have an issue with. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 21:03, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
::::::::Then that's a discussion you should start. The heading and the proposal of ''this'' discussion doesn't make it clear whether it applies to military biographies and this is something we should seek wider consensus on. Anyways I'll notify MILHIST of the discussion now since it would affect them. [[User:Chess|Chess]] [[User talk:Chess|(talk)]] <small>(please use&#32;{{tlx|ping|Chess}} on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 05:11, 10 July 2020 (UTC) 
: Similar discussions have appeared here before (e.g., [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_298#Photos|recently]]).  The sourcing described is obviously inappropriate.  The behavior being described as standard for MILHIST is also obviously inappropriate.  --[[User:Joel B. Lewis|JBL]] ([[User_talk:Joel_B._Lewis|talk]]) 19:09, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
*Definitely not, this is textbook WP:OR. Instead, we should demand stronger sources for images actually depicting what they purport to depict. I'm sure a lot of crap gets into Wikipedia that way, since WP:RS and WP:OR are ignored or have been deemed not to apply. Furthermore, if an award has not been discussed in reliable secondary sources it lacks WP:DUE. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 05:23, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' the suggestion above that this is acceptable practice at MILHIST is not correct, {{u|SMcCandlish}}. Your snide shots at the project are not based on the observable facts. Establishing medal entitlements from photographs comes up occasionally on the MILHIST talk page (the linked discussion is from eight years ago, there have been several discussions since then, and a lot has changed since 2012). I agree it is not a matter for MILHIST to determine, it is a matter for the community. However, I have reviewed most MILHIST-tagged articles at FAC and Milhist ACR and a significant proportion of the GANs over the last six or so years, and I have <u>never</u> seen someone trying to use a photograph as a source for medal entitlements at any of those levels of assessment. That's not to say it wasn't done in the early days of the project. My view on it is as I expressed earlier in this thread, it is OR, and I believe that is the current consensus at MILHIST. The answer to this is to find a reliable secondary source (or even an official primary source independent of the subject like war records made available to the public) that establishes what awards an individual received, and use that. If sources aren't available, just leave it out. We don't conduct OR just to satisfy curiosity of someone who sees the photo and wonders what the ribbons mean. [[User:Peacemaker67|Peacemaker67]]  ([[User_talk:Peacemaker67|click to talk to me]]) 05:51, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
*:I see now that my position was based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the current consensus and I've retracted my previous statement. [[User:Chess|Chess]] [[User talk:Chess|(talk)]] <small>(please use&#32;{{tlx|ping|Chess}} on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 07:05, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
*:I haven't said anything snide, but perhaps over-generalizing.  To tie this into much broader related discussions that happened earlier: We know for a fact that wikiproject-centered "make up our own standards" behavior is the source of this and many closely problems surrounding hono[u]rs, titles, etc. We know that the majority of it is coming from [[WP:ROYALTY]] in particular.  {{em|To the extent}} that participants in MILHIST are contributing to the problem, then it is even more a wikiproject-related problem than we originally realized.  If MILHIST in the aggregate are mostly not (and, as a project, not programmatically) making this problem worse, that is good. But it still does not make WT:MILHIST any kind of good venue for settling this matter, when the problem is widespread, involving multiple projects, and is mostly not confined to military subjects to begin with.  For the third time: when there's a problem with wikiprojects doing something topical that doesn't agree with encyclopedia-wide standards, the proper venue is [[WP:VPPOL]]. Despite having little time or patience for [[WP:DRAMA]] right now, I'm simply going to go open the VPPOL RfC myself if I get any more "ignore the real point so I can tone-police as form of debate-for-sport" responses.  {{em|Just go have the proper discussion at the appropriate venue, that has enough uninvolved eyeballs to make a real decision}}, instead of arguing back-and-forth on a page which is clearly not going to result in an implementable consensus, or suggesting to take it to some one-topic star chamber that will either not result in a consensus or will result in one that people in other wikiprojects (like ROYALTY) will just ignore as inter-wikiproject conflict.  See also: [[WP:Use common sense]].  <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 20:06, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

[[:File:MagrittePipe.jpg|thumb|[[This is not a pipe]]]]
It seems to me that this is a metephisical argument. If there is a photographic image of the inscription of a monument in a church, is that a reliable source for the inscription, or does an antiquarian source from the 17th century have to be used if no more recent source about the inscription exists? If there is no known secondary source is this primary source of the wording on the monument not allowed? Answers to these questions have an influence on how images of medals etc are to be assessed.  -- [[User:PBS|PBS]] ([[User talk:PBS|talk]]) 17:59, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
:I would say the answer to that is more related to [[WP:DUE]]; if RS don't consider the inscription notable enough to discuss it in text, it probably isn't encyclopedic. [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 20:18, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
:I don't think the monument inscription is a reasonable equivalent since it's a permanent fixture. A medal or badge or other apparel is transient. Besides, there's no validation that someone wearing something is actually entitled to it. If I have a picture taken while wearing a crown, I'm still not a queen. [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#9966FF;">Schazjmd</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#5500FF;">''(talk)''</span>]] 20:36, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
::A monument is precisely the same. There is no grantee that what is written on a monument is accurate (eg the original wording on the [[monument to the Great Fire of London]]), so what on does as with any other primary sources is to follow [[WP:PRIMARY]]. Now one can argue whether a monument that is accessible to the public has been "reputedly published", but in it seems that the consensus is that because it was written and placed in the public arena that it has (personally I think it would be better if that were not so, along with birth and dearh registrations before they were collected nationally). However back to an image of a person wearing a medal or badge. The first question that has to be asked is "how does one know who is in the image"? If for example it is in an portrait gallery or a museum (or a magazine which is reliably publish) and has been attributed as representing the person of interest then it is (according to the secondary source). As the medal or badge being warn this depends on context. If you [User:Schazjmd]] were shown wearing a crown while down the <s>pub</s>bar then it would probably not be enough to confirm that you were a queen, however if the picture showed you in a US Air Force master sergeant uniform, at a military parade while in the army, wearing a purple heart, then it is likely that could be considered authoritative.  As always with primary sources it depends on context and content. If there is a picture of the Queen of England wearing a medal or badge representing an award, then as it is highly unlikely that she would wear such an award unless it had been given, that can be taken as authoritative. In the context of the UK for most awards one can always check the [[London Gazette]]], however for other European states, particularly those that no longer exist, it may be extremely difficult to find an alternative source. As always with primary sources rather that stating the fact the person had the award, state that a painting exists showing them wearing the award. -- [[User:PBS|PBS]] ([[User talk:PBS|talk]]) 14:01, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
:::But people do wear badges or jewellery that in a picture may not be clear. If an ward has been made there will be a record, so why use a picture. If an award has been awarded but not recorded by RS then [[wp:undue]] crops up. If RS do not care why should we?[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:32, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
:::Exactly what [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] said. Additionally, the use of images as described above is predicated on editors ''personally identifying'' the award in question. Citations are used to verify attribution: any reader should be able to visit the source and confirm a) it is specifically mentioned there, and b) Wikipedia's description is accurate. Referencing an image of a person wearing a medal, where the source text description does not address the medal or where there is no accompanying text at all, fails verifiability. You can't draw your own conclusions from a written source; why should it be any different for an image? [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 17:02, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
::::I can not read Greek (or any other none Latin script), but Wikipedia editors allow non-English sources and rely on editors to translate those sources. If I question the accuracy of the translation by another editor, then I have recourse to ask other editors to verify the translation. I can not read the [[Awards and decorations of the United States Armed Forces]] by looking at an image of an US officer in a dress uniform at a formal dinner, but there are people who can, and like other primary sources (such as monuments) there ought not to be a simple blanket ban. Each image should be assessed on its merits.  In the case of most modern states, there are other sources that can be accessed, but did [[Idi Amin]]'s regime keep detailed records of all the awards he issued? Information available in catalogued archives for states in previous centuries, particularly those which were short lived may not exist. If however there is an image of a portrait of a notable person wearing the honour then the source should not be dismissed out of hand, just because it is an image of a portrait and not written in a secondary source or as an image of a Church [[English church monuments|mural monument]]. If the image of a mural monument includes an carving of the notable person wearing an award would that be acceptable as a reliable source, while an image of a portrait would not? -- [[User:PBS|PBS]] ([[User talk:PBS|talk]]) 14:46, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
::::: No: there is no situation in which an image by itself is a reliable source.  It is just a category error. --[[User:Joel B. Lewis|JBL]] ([[User_talk:Joel_B._Lewis|talk]]) 16:28, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
::::::What does the qualifier "by itself" mean? Also what does "just a category error" mean? -- [[User:PBS|PBS]] ([[User talk:PBS|talk]]) 14:18, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::::The topic of this discussion covers what "by itself" means: an image with no supporting text from a RS. I gave several examples above, including [https://web.archive.org/web/20160303184457/http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/170585mihaianalilian1960jpg.jpg this]. A portrait of someone wearing an honor is not a reliable source if the honor has not been identified ''in that picture'' by reliable secondary sources, under which circumstance the portrait is no longer needed as a reference because we can just use the secondary source instead. If the honor is mentioned as part of the portrait ''title'' it could be ok. [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 18:11, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::::: Thanks, {{u|JoelleJay}}.  What I mean by "a category error" is that images are not sources of information in the same way that written text is, and extracting information from an image is not the same process as extracting information from text.  To use a silly analogy, an image is like my sandwich from lunch: anyone who sees it can infer various (true) things by viewing it, but the sandwich is not usable as a source without someone writing down in text those things. If the someone doing the transfer of information from image to language is a Wikipedia editor, that's OR. --[[User:Joel B. Lewis|JBL]] ([[User_talk:Joel_B._Lewis|talk]]) 19:35, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

== Notice of RfC on "widely criticised for its unreliability" in the article [[Daily Mail]] ==

As this noticeboard is concerned with the reliability of sources, its editors may have expertise relevant to the RfC at '''[[Talk:Daily Mail#Request_for_comments]]''' regarding the statement in the article ''[[Daily Mail]]'' that it is "widely criticised for its unreliability". [[User:-sche|-sche]] ([[User talk:-sche|talk]]) 23:25, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
*This RfC has been closed. <b style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8">[[User:Petrarchan47|<span style="color:#A0A0A0">petrarchan47</span>]][[User talk:Petrarchan47|<span style="color:deeppink">คุ</span>]][[Special:Contribs/Petrarchan47|<span style="color:orangered">ก</span>]]</b> 19:29, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

A new RfC along similar lines has been opened as '''[[Talk:Daily Mail#RfC:_sourcing_of_"widely_criticized_for_its_unreliability"]]'''. [[User:-sche|-sche]] ([[User talk:-sche|talk]]) 20:08, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

== Reliability of voter surveys for a party's ideology ==

[[Czech Pirate Party]] article states in the lead that "The party's positions range from [[Centrism|centre]] to [[Centre-left politics|centre-left]] and are "[[Liberalism|liberal]]" (in contrast to "[[Conservatism|conservative]]") within the context of [[politics of the Czech Republic]], while it has both right-wing and left-wing voters." The source of this is a 2016 survey of using a self-selected [[convenience sample]] of  readers of [[iDNES]], a Czech newspaper[https://zpravy.idnes.cz/politicky-kompas-prvni-zjisteni-d43-/domaci.aspx?c=A160911_141109_domaci_jw] however the newspaper never states this in text, it is just extrapolated using [[WP:OR]] from the charts on the page showing the result of the survey, which can be interpreted in different ways as I pointed out on the article talk page.
#Can surveys be used to generalize about the political ideology of a party? 
#If they can be used, should they be attributed in text, such as "A 2016 survey found, blah blah blah" along with an explanation of the survey's questions and methodology?
#Are such surveys to be preferred to what reliable sources state directly about a party's ideology and supporters? ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 18:05, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
*I would say no; in general, a poll or survey should never be used to directly cite anything but the specific results of that poll or survey, and even that should be done cautiously to avoid [[WP:OR]] implications.  Interpreting what a poll ''means'', including what it means with regards to a party's identity, requires a secondary source.  They shouldn't even be used in a way that ''implies'' something about the party's membership - again, if it's obvious, there ought to be secondary sources stating it; interpreting a poll requires understanding its context, the questions that were asked, the timeframe it took place in, etc.  And it definitely can't be used to indicate the party's positions (assuming that's what it's being used for here) which isn't even a valid inference even if [[WP:OR]] were allowed. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 18:24, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
*:Agree, polls need to be interpreted by a reliable secondary source for any conclusions. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 18:53, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
* It looks like [[WP:SYN]], the reliability of the source is neither here nor there. Whether we'd use surveys for this kind of claim depends on whether the sources we cite, make the link. As long as we accurately reflect what the sources say, and the sources themselves are reliable, it's  not our problem to fix. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 09:25, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

== Kill or cure? ==

* Here is an interesting website: [https://kill-or-cure.herokuapp.com/ Kill or cure? Help to make sense of the Daily Mail’s ongoing effort to classify every inanimate object into those that cause cancer and those that prevent it.] The website isn't reliable, but like Wikipedia itself the gold is in the citations. --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 23:37, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Guy Macon}}, heh, this looks like a variant of the Daily Mail Oncological Ontology Project (https://thedailymailoncologicalontologyproject.wordpress.com/). '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 09:27, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

== Algemeiner Journal & The Jewish News Syndicate==
{{RSN RfC status|1595328780}}<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 10:53, 16 July 2020 (UTC) -->
[[User:ReconditeRodent]] suggested that I raise an RFC on this noticeboard to gather greater consensus following my initial RFC on the [[Talk:Spencer_Wells|talk page]] for [[Spencer_Wells|Spencer Wells]].

I wish to rely on the following articles from the [[Algemeiner_Journal|Algemeiner Journal]] and [https://www.jns.org/ The Jewish News Syndicate] to attribute to Mr Wells following controversial tweets by Mr Wells which he has since deleted:

https://www.algemeiner.com/2020/07/03/university-of-texas-repudiates-ex-professor-who-called-for-israel-to-be-bombed-until-the-sand-turns-to-glass/

https://www.jns.org/opinion/ut-needs-to-define-and-combat-institutional-anti-jewish-sentiment/

Can you please clarify whether I can rely on either or both of these sources? Many thanks in advance.[[User:Joshgladwin|Joshgladwin]] ([[User talk:Joshgladwin|talk]]) 10:53, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

: Just had a quick glance at JNS and I would say that anything covered there should raise issues of due weight without more mainstream coverage.  Also none of their articles seem to have a byline (?), and I can't find the kind of info about who the editors or publisher is that I would expect from a reputable news source.  So, not terribly impressed. --[[User:Joel B. Lewis|JBL]] ([[User_talk:Joel_B._Lewis|talk]]) 12:26, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
:Algemeiner is [[WP:NEWSORG]] so I think its '''reliable''' --[[user:Shrike|Shrike]] ([[User talk:Shrike|talk]]) 18:03, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
: I know nothing about the JNS, but Algemeiner is generally reliable but it's not the BBC. However, for allegations serious enough to ruin a distinguished researchers career, you need better sources. See [[WP:BLP]]. [[User:ImTheIP|ImTheIP]] ([[User talk:ImTheIP|talk]]) 18:51, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
:The reliability of these sources is probably a bit less than [[Jewish Telegraphic Agency]] which serves a similar market, but I don't think they're  unreliable. Their coverage is often [https://www.algemeiner.com/2020/07/13/iran-threatens-retaliation-if-it-concludes-a-regime-or-government-behind-natanz-nuclear-facility-blast/ derivative] in which case it may be better to cite the original source. I would not use their opinion pieces at all (which would eliminate the JNS piece) and would not use their reporting on a BLP or highly controversial issue unless it was confirmed by other reporting. However, they're definitely usable for some topics, such as [https://www.algemeiner.com/2020/07/14/california-board-of-education-urged-to-reject-campaign-to-impose-ethnic-studies-curriculum-viewed-as-antisemitic/ reporting on what Jewish organizations say], news about [https://www.jns.org/israeli-defense-companies-team-up-with-abu-dhabi-firm-to-develop-breakthrough-coronavirus-technology/ Israeli businesses], or [https://www.jns.org/covid-19-and-the-jewish-elderly-report-from-miami-new-york-and-pittsburgh/ internal issues].  ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 03:56, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
* Algemeiner is a long running [[WP:NEWSORG]] with a solid reputation and is '''generally reliable'''. JNS is less established, but does have a [https://www.jns.org/about/ solid team], so I would think it is a '''reliable''' source. In addition to its own content, JNS also circulates opinion pieces (need attribution) as well as re-circulating pieces by other news organizations (these are marked on the byline, the reliability is according to the source and not JNS).--[[User:Bob not snob|Bob not snob]] ([[User talk:Bob not snob|talk]]) 07:14, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
*The content supported by primary source i.e the tweets themselves so its not question of reliability [[user:Shrike|Shrike]] ([[User talk:Shrike|talk]]) 11:33, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
{{Reply to|Shrike}} What if the offending tweets have since been deleted? The JNS source contains a [https://imgur.com/a/qAUF8V9 hyperlink] to screenshots of the now deleted tweets. Can these be used?[[User:Joshgladwin|Joshgladwin]] ([[User talk:Joshgladwin|talk]]) 23:23, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
*One needs to be careful about some of these publications, Algemeiner was involved in a [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cyber-deepfake-activist/deepfake-used-to-attack-activist-couple-shows-new-disinformation-frontier-idUSKCN24G15E "deepfake" anti-Palestinian affair] recently (they are not alone in this Israel National News, the Jerusalem Post, and the Times of Israel also [https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200720-pro-israel-news-outlets-ran-deepfake-op-eds-in-new-disinformation-frontier/ published deepfake opinion pieces)].

== Can we call [[Wonkette]] far-left on the basis of  adfontesmedia.com ==

The source is this chart[https://www.adfontesmedia.com/interactive-media-bias-chart/] which has it well into "most extreme left" - but I can't square that claim with what I see when I click "politics" on its website.[https://www.wonkette.com/national-politics/]. Something's wrong. I've reverted as it makes no sense. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 14:06, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
:What do other RS say?[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:07, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
:There's an article titled "Grown-Ass President Wants A Cookie For Wearing A Mask In Public." There was one yesterday with a lead graphic of Trump as a toddler rolling and flailing on the ground in a temper tantrum. Ad fontes uses titles and lead images as part of the rubric and weights them pretty heavily. [[User:Valereee|—valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 14:14, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
::That just makes me doubt the RS status of Ad Fontes! I know some genuinely far-left, and that ain't it. --[[User:Orangemike|<span style="color:#F80">Orange Mike</span>]] &#124; [[User talk:Orangemike|<span style="color:#FA0">Talk</span>]] 14:19, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
:::Ad fontes is generally very good at assessing non-satire. Wonkette uses a ton of political satire, especially in titles and images, so probably isn't a good thing for ad fontes to be assessing, even. [[User:Valereee|—valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 14:24, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
::: [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_298#Ad_Fontes_Media_Bias_Chart|I brought this up on the noticeboard up last month]], and it was [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_290#Ad_Fontes_Media_and_AllSides|also discussed in April]]. It seems ridiculous to treat Media Bias / Fact Check as an unreliable source but Ad Fontes as reliable, both are self-published sources with no editorial oversight. I can understand using Ad Fontes as a rough guide to the leaning of various news organisations, but it should not be used as an authority on source reliability. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 14:28, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
::*Like I said below...  things like that make an outlet ''partisan'', not far-left or far-right.  I don't think that Adfontes chart is measuring far-left or far-right in the sense we're talking about, which generally refers to holding [[Far-left politics]] (eg. extreme anti-capitalism; communism or anarchism) or [[Far-right politics]] (eg. neo-fascism, white nationalism, etc.) rather than being highly partisan. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 16:28, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
* No. Ad Fontes is not a RS. It's a useful guide when assessing sources but is not in and of itself reliable. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 14:27, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
**When I searched RSN before posting here it looked as though most people consider it reliable. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 16:06, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
::: I got the impression from the [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_290#Ad_Fontes_Media_and_AllSides|OANN and Ad Fontes discussion]] that Ad Fontes was not usable in article space as a direct source of the bias or reliability of a publication. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 16:20, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
::*Either way I wouldn't consider it usable for this in particular - [[Far-left politics]] has a very different meaning than "most extreme left" in the context they're using it; I read it as meaning ''stridently'' left, or partisan left, whereas far-left means "supports radical policies."  AFAIK Wonkette is not supporting the overthrow of capitalism or taking any particularly far-left positions within the spectrum of American politics (in fact, they supported Biden, I think?)  The chart is simply measuring whether outlets are highly partisan in the US political sense, not the nature of their politics.  Consider where CounterPunch and The Intercept (which clearly support more radical policies than Wonkette) land on that chart.  Similarly, on the right side, there are several outlets that are plainly more right-wing in their politics than Fox News which nonetheless are placed to the left of it, since Fox is very stridently partisan.  Another way of looking at it is that from AdFontes' perspective sources with a strong ideology are actually going to be ''less'' partisan because a genuine commitment to an ideology will make eg. Reason or the Washington Examiner more willing to go against American party lines occasionally, whereas Fox or Wonkette will gleefully disregard everything to push a particular political end. Part of the issue that makes it hard to see this is that far-left isn't as well-defined as far-right - but consider eg. [[RedState]], which occupies a position somewhat similar to Wonkette both on that chart and in reality.  It's a garbage source on the chart, obviously, but is it far-right?  Obviously not. Anyway, beyond that, this shows why it's a bad idea to use charts as sources in general, since interpreting them often requires [[WP:OR]]. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 16:22, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

:No. To say, in the article body, that "[[Ad Fontes Media]] considers Wonkette left-wing" would probably be alright if other sources covered (and hence attached weight to) Ad Fontes' view of Wonkette. To cite them as a source for a claim in wikivoice that "Wonkette is far left" is not, for reasons Aquillon lays out (namely that it involves OR [mis?]interpreting their image, and it's also unclear that they are reliable). [[User:-sche|-sche]] ([[User talk:-sche|talk]]) 18:13, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
::[[User:Grandwizardman67]] has reverted me with an edit summary " cited my source. And you really don't even need a source to know how left-wing it is. Almost every article mocks trump or right-wing news media and the comments section is filled with comments mocking "orange snowflakes"" [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 08:44, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
:::They seem to have a misunderstanding of what left and right mean (interpreting them solely in the context of "how severely are they on one side of the American partisan political divide" rather than actual ideological positions.)  This is one of the reasons we need sources using "far left" or "far right" unambiguously to use those terms in the article text, since it's very easy for editors to mistakenly think that they are a valid paraphrase in situations where they're not. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 18:20, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Wonkette is definitely a partisan left-wing site, but nothing about it is even remotely near the far-left. "[[Far-left]]" is generally regarded as encompassing things like communism, Trotskyism and left-anarchism, not energetic mainstream leftism. -- [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 09:09, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
: {{u|The Anome}}, I agree with your characterisation of what constitutes far left but I think it's probably irrelevant here: the left-right axis on Ad Fontes is ''degree of bias'', not position on the left/right spectrum. Wonkette may well be considered extremely partisan, but that does not make it far-left. In the same way, Fox is hyper-partisan, but not far-right, as we would normally understand the term.
: So it's a misunderstanding of a source that is in any case not usable for content, and we don't even need to get into the merits of the claim itself. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 09:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
::{{ping|JzG}} Exactly. Hyper-partisan &ne; extreme. -- [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 12:36, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

== RfC: [[Zero Hedge]] ==
{{atop|There is a clear consensus to depreciate this source and add a warn filter, several editors noted promotion of conspiracy theories and false or misleading information as being a significant issue. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 17:20, 16 July 2020 (UTC)}}
Should [[Zero Hedge]] be [[WP:DEPS|deprecated]] as a source, with an [[WP:EF|edit filter]] set to [[WP:EFBASICS|warn]] editors who attempt to use it as a reference? —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 01:54, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

=== Survey (Zero Hedge) ===
* '''Yes'''. [https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/google-bans-two-websites-its-ad-platform-over-protest-articles-n1231176 Zero] [https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/02/01/twitter-zero-hedge-coronavirus/ Hedge] [https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/india-news-who-created-covid/303334 is] [https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/baseless-conspiracy-theories-claim-new-coronavirus-was-bioengineered/ well-known] [https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/05/coronavirus-epidemic-wuhan-misinformation-online-social-media/ for] [https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2017/06/27/2190408/a-weekend-in-texas-with-zerohedge-readers-part-1/ disseminating] [https://www.cjr.org/tow_center/the-tow-center-covid-19-newsletter.php conspiracy] [https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jan/28/blog-posting/websites-spin-conspiracy-theory-about-coronavirus-/ theories], [https://www.wired.co.uk/article/5g-coronavirus-conspiracy-theory and] [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-twitter/financial-market-website-zero-hedge-knocked-off-twitter-over-coronavirus-story-idUSKBN1ZW0PZ has] [https://www.dailydot.com/debug/apple-app-store-bans-breitbart-news-app/ a] [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/02/27/warning-online-coronavirus-cures-websites-claim-drinks-nasal/ reputation] [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/05/christine-blasey-ford-rightwing-conspiracy-theorists-burst-your-bubble for] [https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/19/unsold-cars-google-maps_n_5350166.html publishing] [https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/09/21/kremlin-trolls-bots-useful-idiots-russian-propaganda/ false] [https://money.cnn.com/2014/09/25/investing/zero-hedge-wall-street-blog-finance/index.html or] [https://nymag.com/guides/money/2009/59457/ fabricated] [https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/d3y94z/the-vegas-shooting-generated-boatloads-of-fake-news information]. —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 01:54, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' any source should be deprecated if it deliberately disseminates conspiracy theories, which ZH certainly does. <span style="background:Black;padding:1px 5px">[[User:Buidhe|<b style="color: White">b</b>]][[User talk:Buidhe|<b style="color: White">uidh</b>]][[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|<b style="color: White">e</b>]]</span> 03:37, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Yes''', clearly and deliberately publishes conspiracy theories and blatant lies, so it should be deprecated. [[User:Devonian Wombat|Devonian Wombat]] ([[User talk:Devonian Wombat|talk]]) 04:17, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' - it promotes conspiracy theories and nonsense. It cannot be trusted to be a Wikipedia source - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 07:27, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' as per previous comments. It's original content is often completely untrue. [[User:Bobfrombrockley|BobFromBrockley]] ([[User talk:Bobfrombrockley|talk]]) 08:59, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Yes''', obviously - but I thought it already was? This should be deprecated and systematically removed. Unlike the Daily Mail, ZeroHedge was always junk. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 10:11, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Leaning yes''', though the option to just add it to [[WP:RSP]] could be viable (see below; there are only about 20 citations to it, and they don't seem to be problematic ones). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 11:09, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|SMcCandlish}}, it's already there. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 12:51, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
*::Okay, so what's the issue?  Are people regularly citing it for nonsense? I don't really have an issue blacklisting it, as long as we selectively permit certain specific URLs for [[WP:ABOUTSELF]] citations as needed. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 13:29, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
*:::{{u|SMcCandlish}}, I think Newslinger wants to include it in a filter with a warn template, presumably {{Edit filter|869|log=yes}} '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 14:32, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
*:::: Yes, that's the standard practice and that's what I'm proposing here, unless there is consensus for some other measure. I would not oppose [[WP:SPB|blacklisting]], since there is precedent in [[globalresearch.ca]] {{rspe|Centre for Research on Globalization}} and ''[[InfoWars]]'' {{rspe|InfoWars}}. —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 12:40, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
*:::::Works for me, then. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 12:08, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' distorts kernels of truth, misrepresents, possible ties to dark money propaganda. -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 13:23, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Yes'''. I don't understand the argument that the problem has to get out of hand before addressing it. --[[User:Calton|Calton]] &#124; [[User talk:Calton|Talk]] 23:02, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Yes''', warn filter is helpful. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]<sup>[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]</sup> 23:30, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' — might as well get out in front of the problem while it's still only sparsely used. [[User:XOR&#39;easter|XOR&#39;easter]] ([[User talk:XOR&#39;easter|talk]]) 20:39, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' — nipped in the bud beats rampant use, which the warning may prevent. [[User:Lindenfall|Lindenfall]] ([[User talk:Lindenfall|talk]]) 17:32, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' - Any source that deliberately fabricates information like they do needs to be deprecated ASAP. [[User:Scorpions13256|Scorpions13256]] ([[User talk:Scorpions13256|talk]]) 19:57, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Do not deprecate''' — one investing book [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Social-Media-Strategies-For-Investing/Brian-D-Egger/9781440580581] has called Zero Hedge {{tq|"a '''favorite daily read among Wall Street's literati'''... an amalgam of punchy economic analysis, conspiracy theories, and wonky rants about the failings of U.S. political and economic institutions ad policies."}} Another [https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Dark+Pools+and+High+Frequency+Trading+For+Dummies-p-9781118879191] called it {{tq|"Perhaps the '''most famous blog on markets''' in general is Zero Hedge, a site with a cult following."}} As I write in more detail below, the site has written some awful stuff, but it's also clearly a notable and popular source of opinion. Based on the discussions about the site and published opinion, it clearly falls under the category "generally unreliable" [[WP:GUNREL]]. Interestingly, as noted by reliable sources, Zero Hedge frequently posts ''unpopular'' opinions. One book [https://jasonkelly.com/books/smi-html/] explains that the blog {{tq|"uses anonymity as 'a shield from the tyranny of the majority,'"}} concluding {{tq|"whenever you need a little raw reality, swing by Zero Hedge."}} Unpopular opinions are not a basis for deprecation, but is it possible that this may influence comments here? How are editors deciding between whether a source should be considered "generally unreliable" or "deprecated?" I agree with {{u|Blueboar}} that these designations, like much of internet-based communication, remove nuance and result in poor policy decisions. Prohibitions within Wikipedia against citing famous and notable voices outside of it, even if those voices are often unreliable, does not help us accurately reflect public discourse. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 22:41, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
:* You confuse popularity with reliability. An outlet can be "notable," "widely read," even "famous," yet also completely unreliable. This is the case with, for example, ''[[Weekly World News]]'', ''[[The Drudge Report]]'', and ''Zero Hedge''. Also, a book saying that a blog publishes "an amalgam of punchy economic analysis, conspiracy theories, and wonky rants" does not seem exactly like a mark in favor of the blog. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]<sup>[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]</sup> 00:51, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
::*That's not a confusion found in my comment, where I have addressed both popularity and reliability, and advocated that Zero Hedge be treated as "generally unreliable," i.e. [[WP:GUNREL]]. You're also selectively quoting from the source I cited. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 17:29, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' — Surprised to see this here. There are no characteristics of a reliable source. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 01:00, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
** '''No''' - there is no need such whimsical behaviour as it is already listed in the yucky [[WP:RSN]] and the few cites seem to be for articles of it, it’s editors, and categories for conspiracy theories, etcetera.  In that context, it seems a good RS and not readily replaceable.   Cheers [[User:Markbassett|Markbassett]] ([[User talk:Markbassett|talk]]) 04:20, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' to deprecate, a purveyor of literal fake news. [[User:ValarianB|ValarianB]] ([[User talk:ValarianB|talk]]) 13:48, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' deprecate, obviously not anything close to reliable. --[[User:Calthinus|Calthinus]] ([[User talk:Calthinus|talk]]) 11:18, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''No''' I still oppose this "deprecation" system. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 17:03, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

=== Discussion (Zero Hedge) ===
* There have been three previous discussions of Zero Hedge on this noticeboard:
*# {{rsnl|199|ZeroHedge Blog post by "Tyler Durden}} (2015)
*# {{rsnl|238|Zero Hedge}} (2018)
*# {{rsnl|259|rate "Zero Hedge"}} (2019)
{{bi|em=1.6|Zero Hedge is currently used in {{duses|zerohedge.com|20 articles}}. —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 01:54, 19 June 2020 (UTC)}}
: 20 citations seems a bit low for a full blown depreciation RfC, though I had thought about proposing this myself. Have zerohedge citations been previously removed? [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 02:04, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
:: {{np|COIBot}} reports that there were [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Spam/LinkReports/zerohedge.com|1,149 link additions]] as of December 2017, although this includes non-English Wikipedias. With an [[Alexa rank]] of [https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/zerohedge.com 1,627], Zero Hedge is a prominent website. —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 02:11, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
* I agree with {{u|Hemiauchenia}}.  ZH has some provocative stories and I suspect there is a lot of good information there but there is also a lot of conspiracy stuff.  Regardless, I feel like we shouldn't deprecate unless there is a real problem with the source being used badly.  It doesn't appear that is the case here.  Perhaps just add them to RSP as not reliable and leave it at that.    [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 02:15, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
**''ZH has some provocative stories...'' Yes, all the falsehoods and conspiracy theories they  push are very provocative, I'm sure. Not a standard for a reliable source.
**''...and I suspect there is a lot of good information there''. Wikipedia has standards higher than "suspect". You know, the whole "reliability" thing. --[[User:Calton|Calton]] &#124; [[User talk:Calton|Talk]] 23:02, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
***Not sure why you would bother replying to that.  Its like you think I'm claiming it passes Wikipedia's RS when I'm clearly saying it doesn't.  I'm sorry that wasn't clear for you. [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 23:30, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
****Why you think distorting my statement helps your case I don't know. Maybe, instead, you should pay attention to my noting how bringing up irrelevancies like how they have "provocative stories" and content-free opinions like "I '''suspect''' [emphasis added] there is a lot of good information there" is an obvious effort to undermine the obvious conclusion that Zero Hedge is garbage. --[[User:Calton|Calton]] &#124; [[User talk:Calton|Talk]] 01:30, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
*****That is an illogical conclusion.  You certainly went on a which hunt to find more than I put in there.  I very clearly stated that ZH is ''not'' a RS.  It absolutely does not pass [[WP:RS]] standards.  Should have been end of the discussion.  But you wanted to make an issue with something I said for who knows what reason.  OK, you might feel that 100% of their stories are garbage.  I've found at least some of their stories promoted by some very smart people in the finance world.  Not smart people trying to get others to buy or sell but trying to get others to understand things the market or companies are doing.  That doesn't mean they are reliable by Wikipedia standards or should ever be used as a RS even if they can be thought provoking/enlightening from time to time.  I'm sorry my opinion was so problematic that you felt it was important to call out.  Please keep our previous civility discussions/warnings in mind when doing so in the future.  [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 01:44, 22 June 2020 (UTC) 

*It's a conspiracy blog. There is non-nonsense content, but the good stuff is not original and the original stuff is very bad indeed. Shouldn't be used as a source for anything, including statements about itself - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 07:27, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
*I hate the entire concept of deprecation... context matters.  So rather than a simple !vote, I would say it is Reliable when used as a primary source, but Not reliable when used as a secondary source. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 11:22, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
**What's your evidence that it can even be trusted as a primary source? - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 11:28, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
***EVERY source is reliable when used as a primary source... the problem isn’t reliability, it’s that there are very limited situations in which it is appropriate to use primary sources.  The problem with deprecation is that it ignores the few rare instances when it IS appropriate. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 12:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
****We literally know that dailymail.co.uk can't be trusted for the contents of the Daily Mail, for example - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 23:38, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
***:{{u|Blueboar}}, well, up to a point. I think I'd struggle to come up with a definition of ''reliable'' that encompasses whale.to. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 14:27, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|Blueboar}}, in a sane world deprecation would not be needed: people would just not use crap sources. Seems we don't live in that world. There are still people trying to cite WorldNetDaily, and the essence of fake news sites is in any case to hide their fakeness so there are good faith errors as well as editors who simply don't understand what constitutes a reliable source. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 11:35, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
:::The question is: are there situations when it is appropriate to cite such sources?  I say yes.  They are very very limited, but they exist.  Hence my opposition to deprecation as a concept. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 12:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
::::{{u|Blueboar}}, actually that's a point in ''favour'' of deprecation (as opposed to blacklisting). Deprecation says that the source should be avoided unless there is clear consensus to include for some specific reason. That seems entirely consistent with your point here. Of course, people misinterpret it, and that's a valid criticism, but we should fix that by being really clear what we mean by deprecation.
::::It's my view that we should include an optional parameter in the root citation template for something like "consensus=", to record consensus to include otherwise unreliable sources. That would include the handful of self-published books that are agreed to be RS, as well as deprecated or generally unreliable websites. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 14:30, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
:::::I have seen deprecation in action.  It has become a defacto blacklist.  The concept is flawed. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 18:16, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
::::::Is this an argument about the reliability and usefulness of a purported information source, or some sort of misplaced free-speech argument?  --[[User:Calton|Calton]] &#124; [[User talk:Calton|Talk]] 23:02, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
:::::::I have already said that I think it can be reliable when used as a primary source, but not as a secondary source.  Thus, it should not be deprecated. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 00:52, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
:::::::: Deprecation has been broadly recognized since [[WP:RSNRFC]]. For the few cases that a citation of Zero Hedge would be useful as a [[WP:PRIMARY|primary source]], an editor can establish consensus to include the citation on the talk page of the article, and then add the citation to the article by clicking the "Publish changes" button after the warning message is displayed. Regardless of whether Zero Hedge is deprecated, it is highly unlikely for there to be consensus for citing Zero Hedge (outside of the [[Zero Hedge]] article), since the [[WP:DUE|due weight policy]] assigns minimal weight to unreliable sources. —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 03:40, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
::::::::''I have already said that I think it can be reliable when used as a primary source'' Since that statement applies, in general, to literally every single source of any quality whatsoever on Wikipedia, and you haven't cited any examples, counterfactuals, or possibilities regarding THIS source, I repeat: is this an argument about the reliability and usefulness of a -- this particular, the one being discussed -- purported information source, or some sort of misplaced free-speech argument? --[[User:Calton|Calton]] &#124; [[User talk:Calton|Talk]] 01:35, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' — Zero Hedge has posted some ridiculous and libelous material, for instance claiming that some Chinese scientists had created the COVID-19 pandemic ([https://de.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-twitter/financial-market-website-zero-hedge-knocked-off-twitter-over-coronavirus-story-idUSKBN1ZW0PZ Reuters source]). Furthermore, while twitter may have forgiven Zero Hedge for that monstrosity [https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/13/21290118/twitter-reinstates-zerohedge-coronavirus], I haven't. Despite that, the blog is highly ''notable.'' I don't think it's a reliable source of news, but it is an important source of opinion. For that reason, I don't think it should be ''deprecated'', a highly specific response that has targeted an increasing number of news and/or commentary sites since the deprecation of the Daily Mail, and the implementation of the perennial sources list. As I've pointed out earlier, there are various sources that have described Zero Hedge as an important source:
**Social Media Strategies for Investing: How Twitter and Crowdsourcing Tools Can Make You a Smarter Investor, Brian D. Egger, "F+W Media, Inc.", Nov 1, 2014:
:::{{talk quote|"Many individual investors might also be unfamiliar with Zero Hedge, the blog associated with Mr. Ivandjiiski. Zero Hedge has emerged as a favorite daily read among Wall Street's literati. According to Quantcast, a digitical audience-measurement and advertising company, Zero Hedge recently attracted about 3.4 million monthly unique visitors. The website has built up an impressive amount of monthly traffic for a publication with the mystique of an underground operation. More mainstream blogging websites, such as TheStreet and Seeking Alpha, each attract 8–9 million monthly unique visitors, according to their advertising web pages. Zero Hedge and its principle contributor with the mysterious pseudonym are not exactly newcomers to the world of financial blogging. In 2009, a New York Magazine article, entitled "The Dow Zero Insurgency", shed light on Zero Hedge's little-known principal in a feature article on the burgeoning world of financial blooding... Zero Hedge's coverage of [a Goldman Sachs] story became emblematic of its unique brand of investigative journalism — one laced with a deeply cynical distrust of Wall Street... Zero Hedge is an amalgam of punchy economic analysis, conspiracy theories, and wonky rants about the failings of U.S. political and economic institutions ad policies... Its writers dart back and forth between conventional news coverage and opinion-laden editorials. Readers value the blog's frequent, topical updates and strong point of view. Followers of Zero Hedge also praise the author's cerebral brand of cynicism and determination to challenge mainstream views about business, finance, and politics... Many financial advisors and stock investors have bookmarked it (and others like it) and scan it for interesting headlines several times a day... etc."}}
**Dark Pools and High Frequency Trading For Dummies, Jay Vaananen, John Wiley & Sons, Feb 23, 2015:
:::{{talk quote|"Perhaps the most famous blog on markets in general is Zero Hedge, a site with a cult following. Zero Hedge dwarfs all other financial market blogs. Started in 2009, the blog is written in an activist style and is highly critical of markets. It has managed to remain shrouded in mystery. It's still not entirely clear who started it and it's believed to be edited by several people..."}}
**The Neatest Little Guide to Stock Market Investing: Fifth Edition, Jason Kelly, Penguin, Dec 24, 2012:
:::{{talk quote|This site's unsentimental worldview is right in its header: "On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero." Its anonymous writers post articles under the pseudonym "Tyler Durden"... about risks and shady developments in financial markets, news that impacts economies, and politics. It also runs guest posts by named contributors. Zero Hedge says its mission is "to widen the scope of financial, economic, and political information available to the professional investing public" and "to skeptically examine and, where necessary, attack the flaccid institution that financial journalism has become." It uses anonymity as "a shield from the tyranny of the majority." Whenever you need a little raw reality, swing by Zero Hedge."}}
::I understand that Zero Hedge's reputation has suffered in recent years, but that's not sufficient to prohibit the source from being used, particularly as a reliable source for its own opinion. I think we've clearly established that opinion is notable. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 22:21, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
:::If their opinions are notable, then why not use non-primary coverage of those opinions instead of Zero Hedge itself?  That's what's done with InfoWars and other conspiracy theory sites when their opinion is notable. [[User:Ian.thomson|Ian.thomson]] ([[User talk:Ian.thomson|talk]]) 22:53, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
::::{{re|Ian.thomson}} we certainly can do that. The recommendations of [[WP:GUNREL]] apply perfectly: {{tq|Editors show consensus that the source is questionable in most cases. The source may lack an editorial team, have a poor reputation for fact-checking, fail to correct errors, be self-published, or present user-generated content. Outside exceptional circumstances, the source should normally not be used, and it should never be used for information about a living person. Even in cases where the source may be valid, it is usually better to find a more reliable source instead. If no such source exists, that may suggest that the information is inaccurate. The source may still be used for uncontroversial self-descriptions, and self-published or user-generated content authored by established subject-matter experts is also acceptable.}} It has not been demonstrated why the further step of deprecation is necessary. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 00:51, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
:::::{{re|Darouet}} You've kinda missed my point re comparison with InfoWars: that source is depreciated and whenever it would almost appear necessary to cite it we cite a secondary source instead.  Depreciation is different from blacklisting, which is when the site is straight up blocked.  The sources you've cited to show that sometimes it has noteworthy opinions also demonstrate that it is very likely to be cited.  As others have pointed out and you acknowledge, it frequently hosts blatantly false conspiracy theories.  While we shouldn't play whack-a-mole with sources favored by conspiracy theorists, it is simple enough to take out the ones that have gotten mainstream attention.  The need for depreciation hasn't reached anything of an emergency level but I don't see why it needs to become an emergency before we do something about it.  [[User:Ian.thomson|Ian.thomson]] ([[User talk:Ian.thomson|talk]]) 09:25, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
:::::::{{re|Ian.thomson}} thanks for your comment. I've never seen ''any'' favorable commentary by reliable sources describing InfoWars. By contrast, as I've shown above, there is agreement among reliable sources that Zero Hedge is not simply a notable, but also a valuable source of commentary. For that reason InfoWars and Zero Hedge are very different sources and should be treated differently. The comparison with InfoWars supports my statement that editors are not treating sources with the nuance. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 17:24, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Archiving is broken ==

The archiving of this page is not working because of links on the spam blacklist.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReliable_sources%2FNoticeboard&type=revision&diff=968082774&oldid=968078403] Can Lowercase sigmabot III get an exception to the blacklist?  ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 06:23, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
: {{bcc|Buidhe}}I don't think there is any way to bypass the spam blacklist without disabling the blacklisted link itself. The easiest way to do this is to wrap the link in [[WP:NOWIKI|<nowiki><nowiki></nowiki> tags]]. It can be difficult to pinpoint the affected link, so I use [[WP:OCA|OneClickArchiver]] to manually archive discussions that should have already been archived (ones that have no comments in the last 5 days) one by one until I am stopped by the blacklist. I then disable the link with <nowiki><nowiki></nowiki> and let the archive bot handle the remaining discussions on its next run. —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 10:07, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
:: {{done}}. There were two blacklisted links in {{slink|Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 301#Communities Digital News}}. I've disabled them in [[Special:Diff/968118839]]. This time, I archived all discussions that had no comments in the last 5 days, rather than leaving the rest for the archive bot, since the large size of the page (almost 1.2 million characters at its peak) noticeably lengthened the time it took to submit an edit. —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 10:48, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

== Twitter ==

The citing of Twitter posts has become widespread with the ubiquity of the platform. However, social media are in essence [[WP:SPS|self-publishing platforms]], thus fail [[WP:PRIMARY]]. Simply looking at reference sections reveals that editors use these as they would use [[WP:RS|reliable secondary sources]] while forgetting their true nature; that's without mentioning the clutter it sometimes creates. Notable comments made on Twitter usually have an abundance of secondary sources (like all other happenings), so can be validly cited. Yet, there's now [[Template:cite tweet|a template]] that apparently institutionalises citation of tweets. Let's discuss whether this practice should continue. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">[[User:Ohconfucius|'''<span style="color:#000000; background-color:#EEE8AA">&nbsp;Ohc&nbsp;</span>''']]</span></small>[[User talk:Ohconfucius|<sup>''¡digame!''</sup>]] 12:40, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
:Context matters. A twitter post by a gobshit should not be used, but SPS allows for use of expert opinion.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:43, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Slatersteven}}, weeeelllll, yes and no. I absolutely support exclusion of random opinions by random bloviators, however well-known ([[WP:GOBSHITE]] should absolutely be a thing) but I actually don't think Twitter should be used for anything at all if we can avoid it. We are supposed to be based on secondary sources, and virtually nothing posted on Twitter counts as a secondary source. I know this is tilting at windmills by now but there are vast areas of Wikipedia that are infested with blow by blow accounts of breaking news about insignificant crap drawn from the Twitter feeds of media personalities that are probably operated by their bloody PR anyway. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]])</small> 14:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
:::Yes it should not be a goto certainly. Twitter posts lack context often.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:05, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
::::I'd say to allow it in principle but avoid it wherever possible. For example, [[John C. Baez]] has a [https://twitter.com/johncarlosbaez Twitter account], and mathematics or physics material that he posts there is technically permissible by [[WP:SPS]]. But even when there aren't BLP concerns or anything like that, the format is awkward, and if the ''only'' source for something is a tweet, then including it is probably giving it [[WP:DUE|undue weight]]. [[User:XOR&#39;easter|XOR&#39;easter]] ([[User talk:XOR&#39;easter|talk]]) 03:07, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
:*I don't think there are very many places where we can use Twitter posts.  Yes, in theory it could sometimes pass [[WP:SPS]] and [[WP:ABOUTSELF]], but in practice if it is [[WP:DUE]] it is likely to have sources elsewhere.  Worse, many of the things people most want to cite to Twitter are either unduly self-serving or [[WP:EXCEPTIONAL]].  And it is very easy for people to forget the other strict requirements about [[WP:SPS]] (ie. no contentious claims about third parties, fullstop.) --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 04:01, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
:I've moved the warning about using it as a source higher up in the template's documentation page. That won't stop everyone, but it's better than having the warning below the ones about editing and discussing the template itself (neither of which are done often by most editors). [[User:Glades12|Glades12]] ([[User talk:Glades12|talk]]) 14:48, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
::Thanks for moving that {{u|Glades12}}. I know I'm a bit late to this but I should let you know that I am seeing hundreds of tweets used in articles about the covid pandemic as well as political endorsements in the US elections. My worries are that they are a [[WP:PRIMARY]] source and that there is zero oversight or fact checking involved. While this might not change any of the posts you've already made I thought it worth mentioning. [[User:MarnetteD|MarnetteD]]&#124;[[User talk:MarnetteD|Talk]] 18:04, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
:::Yes, thanks. But I'm afraid that nothing short of full deprecation will stop this increasingly dubious practice which is beginning to undermine one of our fundamental tenets. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">[[User:Ohconfucius|'''<span style="color:#000000; background-color:#EEE8AA">&nbsp;Ohc&nbsp;</span>''']]</span></small>[[User talk:Ohconfucius|<sup>''¡digame!''</sup>]] 21:36, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
*It is fine to use a verified twitter for simple about self stuff. Nothing controversial, but there are plenty of situations where it is useful. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 04:16, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
::Are you saying that [[WP:SELFPUBLISH]] is no longer policy? If so than {{u|Ohconfucius}} is correct about the undermining of the fundamentals. BTW all the tweets I'm seeing are stand alone with no followup verification. [[User:MarnetteD|MarnetteD]]&#124;[[User talk:MarnetteD|Talk]] 06:21, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
:::<span class="template-ping">@[[User:MarnetteD|MarnetteD]]:</span> The ''exact'' section you linked to allows citing of self-published media (including that on social networks) written by subject-matter experts. In a nearby section, [[WP:V#Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves|#Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves]], the page also allows use of such content as sources on the authors themselves, in certain cases. So no, PackMecEng never implied that SELFPUB doesn't apply. [[User:Glades12|Glades12]] ([[User talk:Glades12|talk]]) 09:17, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
::::The practice that I think violates the fundamental tenet and that I object to is citation of Twitter willy-nilly. There is the increasing tendency of editors to cite Twitter as a first port of call just as they would cite [[WP:SECONDARY|secondary sources]] because you follow someone on Twitter and found it interesting and relevant to an article, or just because the tenant of 1600 Pennsylvania uses it profusely. Of course, it isn't helped by the fact that many respected journos and media outlets also use Twitter abundantly. But the problem is that it isn't being used sparingly and as a last resort here on WP. In any event, the vast majority of the time, proper media searches would allow you to find an article that cites the person making the relevant and notable comment, without resorting to citing Twitter, and such an article can then be cited in compliance with our policies. Use of the {{tl|cite tweet}} template doesn't solve the problem, it just institutionalises this sub-optimal practice. While I go around tagging all such citations {{tl|Primary source inline}}, I feel like I'm battling a torrent and I hope that the communty calls time on the practice. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">[[User:Ohconfucius|'''<span style="color:#000000; background-color:#EEE8AA">&nbsp;Ohc&nbsp;</span>''']]</span></small>[[User talk:Ohconfucius|<sup>''¡digame!''</sup>]] 09:51, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
:::::I agree, but my point is that Twitter is not ''always'' an unacceptable source for ''everything''. [[User:Glades12|Glades12]] ([[User talk:Glades12|talk]]) 14:52, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
::*It ''is'' policy, but as it says, {{tq|exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent reliable sources}}, and [[WP:EXCEPTIONAL]] places additional restrictions on what can be used that way.  That's what PackMecEng  meant by "nothing controversial", I think.  If a published subject matter expert has a thread about some uncontroversial bit of history in their area of expertise or whatever, we could in theory cite it (although [[WP:DUE]] is often a problem when the ''only'' source is Twitter), but if it's something shocking or exceptional we would ''usually'' want a better source, especially if there's a risk that the source may have a conflict of interest. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 16:46, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
:::*Yup that is what I mean. I would only use a self published source for simple things that might not have secondary coverage but are not controversial most of the time. Something like where they were born or a birthday. Past things like that it gets into undue territory. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 16:51, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
* Agree that it is ok for uncontroversial self sourced info like date of birth, and place of birth imv [[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]] ([[User talk:Atlantic306|talk]]) 18:44, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
::Perhaps you are unaware that people lie about their birthday all the time. As to the earlier mention that [[WP:SELFPUBLISH]] has some provision for a primary source being used that is for material where the writer's bone fides can be checked. As is all too apparent anyone can have a twitter account and they can type any material factual or drivel that they want. Furthermore [[WP:BLPSELFPUB]] stresses [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|Verifiability]] because "We must get the article {{em|right}}. Be very firm about the use of high-quality [[Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable sources|sources]]. All quotations and any material {{strong|challenged or likely to be challenged}} must be supported by an [[Wikipedia:Citing sources#Inline citations|inline citation]] to a reliable, published source." Twitter does not meet any of that criteria so it should not used for info anymore than facebook or linkdn should. Furthermore claims are made every day that "my twitter account has been hacked" which makes its use even more dubious. Relying on social media like that takes us right back to why [[Wikipedia Seigenthaler biography incident]] brought about the need for reliable sourcing in the first place. Back then there was less than one million articles and virtually all of those were on an active editors watchlist. Now there are over 6 million and, based on my experience, there are a huge number that are on their lonesome and edits to those do not get checked. Now if someone wants to start a wikiproject where the members fact check every use of twitter as a reference then that could be a place to start a discussion. [[User:MarnetteD|MarnetteD]]&#124;[[User talk:MarnetteD|Talk]] 07:46, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
::*Eh the examples you provide are rarely likely to happen for uncontroversial things like birthdays or where they are born. Again this is not to say using a verified Twitter account should be desirable or the first stop. Always use secondary RS first, but sometimes is special situations it is acceptable. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 15:11, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
:::*Eh did you miss my first sentence - "Perhaps you are unaware that people lie about their birthday all the time" and both of those items are controversial if they are wrong. [[User:MarnetteD|MarnetteD]]&#124;[[User talk:MarnetteD|Talk]] 19:11, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
::::*Nope, didn't miss a thing. That is why the first thing I did was reply to that claim and how it really does not apply to anything. Perhaps you missed it? Yes if they are wrong they are controversial, and if you know they are wrong they can be changed. But if a subject says my birthday is X there is no reason not to use that unless you have a secondary source that contradicts it. In which case, as I said, you would just use that. If your only argument is well yeah but they could lie about it, well that is a weak argument that holds no weight. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 00:32, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
:::::* {{reply to|PackMecEng}} We have had a number of examples of biography subjects lying about their age and that being used as a "source" for changing their birthdate.  That wouldn't be a problem if there was a reliable source that contradicted it, but quite often the only other sources for them are things like IMDB (which, of course, can be user-generated).  We had a fairly recent one (which, annoyingly, I now can't remember the exact article) which was an actress who appeared to have a problem with turning 40 so changed her birthdate via social media so much that she would have been around 11 when she made her film debut (in which you can clearly see she was a lot older than 11). But what do you do at that point?  It's clearly [[WP:SYNTH]] to say "well, she's clearly a lot older than 11 in that film" so we end up just removing the DOB completely. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 23:11, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
::::::*{{reply|Black Kite}} It's hard to say really. That sounds like an argument against [[WP:ABOUTSELF]] in general. I cannot say we cannot use it because sometimes they lie about things. If there is any indication that is the case it should be removed like your example. Otherwise I think [[WP:Twitter-EL]] is fairly accurate. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 16:45, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
* '''Comment:''' Verified Twitter pages (I.E. blue checkmark) should be treated the same as any other primary source when cited for specific information. But as with any other primary source, reliable secondary sources are generally preferable. I concur with {{u|Slatersteven}} that context is key. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 01:40, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''OK to use under limited circumstance''': As stated in above and other comment, "context is key". Twitter should only be used if it's a tweet by an individual, organization, network, company (in short, a specific entity) and the tweet is (1) from the official account of the entity, and (2) only to verify content attributed to the entity. The web became public domain 27 years ago and the communications field has changed rapidly since then. We shouldn't stick our heads in the sand and ignore how Twitter is being used in lieu of print, online, and broadcast media. [[User:Pyxis Solitary|<span style="background-color: #eadff5; color: #6e02db;">'''Pyxis Solitary'''</span>]] [[User talk:Pyxis Solitary| <span style="color:#FF007C;">(yak)</span>]]. ''L not Q''. 08:04, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
::As mentioned previously [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Mass twitter hacking note]]. [[User:MarnetteD|MarnetteD]]&#124;[[User talk:MarnetteD|Talk]] 21:52, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
*Twitter is not a source or a publisher. It's a platform, a type of medium. The tweet is the source and the person tweeting is the publisher. Can tweets be used as sources? Depends on a lot of things, as spelled out at [[WP:TWITTER]]. Asking if Twitter can be used as a source is like asking if radio can be used as a source. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">[[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&thinsp;<sup>[''[[Special:Contributions/Levivich|dubious]] – [[User talk:Levivich|discuss]]'']</sup></span> 23:01, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

==Americanstarbuzz and [[Missy Gold]]==

Americanstarbuzz[https://americanstarbuzz.com/]] is being used as a source[https://americanstarbuzz.com/biography/former-child-actor-turned-psychologist-missy-gold-her-age-career-personal-life/] for [[Missy Gold]] now being a psychologist in California. The relevant edit[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Missy_Gold&diff=968312216&oldid=968309815] can be found here and {{ping|Sundayclose}} is the editor.

Is Americanstarbuzz a reliable source?

The oldest post to this site is about a year old.

Nowhere on the website is any info given about the site or its authors.

It's a celebrity info/gossip website.

I would like to hear opinions on it.[[User:WilliamJE|...William]], is the complaint department really on [[User talk:WilliamJE|the roof?]] 17:09, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
: Looks like another obscure low quality clickbait [[WP:SPS]] [[content farm]] focused on the personal statistics of public figures, like starsunfolded.com above, I'd remove it on sight. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 17:19, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
:: I've gone ahead and undone the whole revision, as it appears to be entirely based on [[WP:PRIMARY]] and [[WP:SPS]], which are not acceptable for BLP articles. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 17:27, 18 July 2020 (UTC)