View source for Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2022 July 8

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===[[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2022 July 8|July 8]]===
[[Category:Non-talk pages that are automatically signed|{{PAGENAME}}]]
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==== [[Template:BestOfSevenSeriesTable2]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''merge'''<!-- Tfd top --> to [[Template:BestOfSevenSeriesTable]]. [[User:Explicit|<span style="color:#000000">✗</span>]][[User talk:Explicit|<span style="color:white;background:black;font-family:felix titling;font-size:80%">plicit</span>]] 00:09, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|BestOfSevenSeriesTable2|module=|type=merge}}
* {{Tfd links|BestOfSevenSeriesTable|module=|type=merge}}
'''Propose merging''' [[Template:BestOfSevenSeriesTable2]] with [[Template:BestOfSevenSeriesTable]].<br />
No difference between these two templates. –[[User:Aidan721|Aidan721]] ([[User talk:Aidan721|talk]]) 22:57, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' per nomination. --[[User:WikiCleanerMan|WikiCleanerMan]] ([[User talk:WikiCleanerMan|talk]]) 01:01, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''</div>

==== [[Template:Infobox hockey team]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''merge'''<!-- Tfd top --> to [[Template:Infobox Pro hockey team]]. [[User:Explicit|<span style="color:#000000">✗</span>]][[User talk:Explicit|<span style="color:white;background:black;font-family:felix titling;font-size:80%">plicit</span>]] 00:10, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|Infobox hockey team|module=|type=merge}}
* {{Tfd links|Infobox Pro hockey team|module=|type=merge}}
'''Propose merging''' [[Template:Infobox hockey team]] with [[Template:Infobox Pro hockey team]].<br />
The two infoboxes hardly differ. Many junior hockey teams are split between the two infoboxes. Propose merging to one infobox and renaming {{t|Infobox ice hockey team}}. –[[User:Aidan721|Aidan721]] ([[User talk:Aidan721|talk]]) 14:34, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per norm. --[[User:Vaco98|Vaco98]] ([[User talk:Vaco98|talk]]) 21:35, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
**{{Ping|Vaco98}} The nomination wasn't to delete, it was to merge. <span style="font-family:Futura,'Century Gothic','Trebuchet MS',serif;">[[User:Senator2029|<b style="color:#1974D2;">Senator2029</b>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Senator2029|<b style="color:#1974D2;">【talk】</b>]]</span>  05:14, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' and rename per norm. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 13:41, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' and '''Rename''' per nom.--[[User:Darwinek|Darwinek]] ([[User talk:Darwinek|talk]]) 20:11, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' and '''rename''' per norm. –[[User:Spitzmauskc|Spitzmauskc]] ([[User talk:Spitzmauskc|talk]]) 15:19, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' and '''rename''' per nom. <span style="font-weight: bold; background-color: #00c9c2; color: #000000;">[[User:Kepler-1229b|🪐Kepler-1229b]] &#124; [[User talk:Kepler-1229b|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Kepler-1229b|contribs🪐]]</span> 16:30, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''</div>

==== [[Template:For timeline]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''no consensus'''<!-- Tfd top -->. Consensus to delete or redirect is unlikely to be achieved, and there were many keep voters who found it beneficial or harmless. <small>[[Wikipedia:NACD|(non-admin closure)]]</small> — ''Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung'', ''[[User:Mellohi!|mello]]'''''[[User talk:Mellohi!|hi!]]''' ([[Special:Contributions/Mellohi!|投稿]]) 22:25, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|For timeline|module=|type=merge}}
* {{Tfd links|For outline|module=|type=merge}}
'''Propose redirecting''' [[Template:For timeline]] and [[Template:For outline]] to {{tl|further}} or {{tl|seealso}}.<br />
Lets redirect these overly long hatnote to {{tl|further}} and/or {{tl|seealso}}. Currently used for timelines and outlines articles that are self explanatory in their title. Simply no need for an explination of what is being  linked. Seem to have a subset of these specialty hat notes for groups of articles being used out of the blue.<span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]</span>-[[File:Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg|15px|link=User talk:Moxy]] 14:53, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Examples:
'''{{For timeline|Timeline of Canadian history}}'''
'''{{For outline|Outline of United States history}}'''
: <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]</span>-[[File:Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg|15px|link=User talk:Moxy]] 14:52, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' When used in isolation I tend to agree that there's not much value in the unique explanatory label that seems redundant with the target title. In cases where there are [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&oldid=1095490345#Invasion_and_resistance a large number of hatnotes] though, I find this differentiation more helpful. It forces different types of content to new lines and lets me quickly scan in a vertical fashion to see what ''type'' of further detail is available. --[[User talk:N8wilson|N8<sub>wilson</sub>]] <span title="Please ping me for reply" style="cursor:help">🔔</span> 19:00, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
:'''Redirect''' as per proposal, No need for a long hatnote for a category of articles.[[Special:Contributions/204.237.50.240|204.237.50.240]] ([[User talk:204.237.50.240|talk]])  <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 00:41, 29 June 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
*'''Redirect'''.  We don't need a custom template for every possible phrasing.  Especially unneeded here since the title of most timeline articles is "Timeline of XYZ" which is rather obvious.  [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 23:37, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' for reasons explained by {{u|N8wilson}}. It is similar to {{tl|Main list}}, which has not yet been merged into {{tl|Main}} because of its value of specifically calling out a list article. [[User:Thrakkx|Thrakkx]] ([[User talk:Thrakkx|talk]]) 20:51, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Redirect''' as proposed by {{u|Moxy}}, should we use {{tl|seealso}} as for timeline sections? --[[Special:Contributions/5.16.0.18|5.16.0.18]] ([[User talk:5.16.0.18|talk]]) 10:40, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' As per [[User talk:N8wilson|N8<sub>wilson</sub>]]. [[Special:Contributions/2001:8003:9008:1301:204C:A08C:E4BA:8A29|2001:8003:9008:1301:204C:A08C:E4BA:8A29]] ([[User talk:2001:8003:9008:1301:204C:A08C:E4BA:8A29|talk]]) 06:13, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per above, useful in situations where there are other hatnotes to help the reader understand what is being linked to better. —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] • [[User talk:Locke Cole|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Locke Cole|c]] 07:36, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' per nom. We do not need custom templates like this. Where it is absolutely necessary (and this is not such a case generally), {{tl|hatnote}} is available. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 18:33, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' per nom and Izno. Use seems to be redundant for article titles, and there are other ways to create space in the rare instance where trimming hatnotes would not be a better solution. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 06:50, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
:<p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"><span style="color: #FF6600;">'''{{resize|91%|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}'''</span><br /><small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 12:34, 8 July 2022 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:XfD relist --></p>
::WTH? This now shows up in [[Donald Trump#Investigations of Russian election interference]], even when I'm not logged in. Is that what you were intending to do by relisting? [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]] ([[User talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x|talk]]) 18:34, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Hatnotes are to be used for disambiguation and navigational purposes, not for giving particularly interesting related articles special prominence in an article. This is laid out in the relevant policy page, [[WP:Hatnote]], I draw particular attention to point 3 of the 5 basic rules {{tqi|Mention other topics and articles only if there is a reasonable possibility of a reader arriving at the article either by mistake or with another topic in mind.}} Looking at the first usage of this template in the list of transclusions, [[Centimetre–gram–second system of units]] it is obvious that this is not a valid hatnote and should be removed - no reader searching for "Centimetre–gram–second system of units" or any of the terms that redirect there is actually going to have been intending to end up at [[Outline of the metric system]] - the link belongs in the "see also" section, not at the top of the page. There are also some usages of this template in see also sections, however this is against the manual of style, [[MOS:SEEALSO]], which states that {{tqi|The section should be a bulleted list}}. For the handful of legitimate usages, {{tl|hatnote}} can be used, it doesn't require a standalone template. [[Special:Contributions/163.1.15.238|163.1.15.238]] ([[User talk:163.1.15.238|talk]]) 15:57, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
*:Linking to a chronological guide to a topic is a navigational purpose. The argument you laid out is also directed against {{tl|Further}}, which is a totally valid hatnote to add under relevant section headings. [[User:Thrakkx|Thrakkx]] ([[User talk:Thrakkx|talk]]) 21:52, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
*::"Editors should defer to official policies or guidelines when essays, information pages or template documentation pages are inconsistent with established community standards and principles." <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]</span>-[[File:Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg|15px|link=User talk:Moxy]] 00:49, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': This looks like a classic case of trying to fix something that "ain’t [[WP:BROKE]]". More importantly, the proposed remedy could ''introduce'' breakage rather than fix anything. I’ve seen two reasons for deletion: 1. template is unnecessarily redundant with {{tl|See also}}, {{tl|further}} or {{tl|hatnote}} and 2. hatnotes should be concise and the content of these templates are unnecessarily lengthy. 
*#Regarding redundancy with other templates: [[MOS:HATNOTE]] guides {{tqq|In most cases, hatnotes should be created using a standard hatnote template, [which] permits the form and structure of hatnotes to be changed uniformly across the encyclopedia as needed}}. Redirecting these templates to {{tl|hatnote}} ''reduces'' the ability to maintain consistency across the encyclopedia as that text is fully supplied in the template call. Neither {{tl|See also}} nor {{tl|Further}} however, can be assured to accurately reflect all the cases where {{tl|For timeline}} and {{tl|For outline}} are used. One use of "For outline" seems to be in the "See also" section of ''very broad'' topics such as [[Database#See also]] and [[Epistemology#See also]]. [[Engineering#See also]] however uses {{tl|Main}} for this purpose which, in this application, is arguably a better fit than the proposed redirect targets. The example can be debated of course but then ''that's the point'': redirecting these templates supplants a ''specific'' solution with a ''generic'' one that could just as likely be a step backwards with no real benefit to the encyclopedia. 
*#Regarding conciseness: although these template use slightly more text than {{tl|See also}} and {{tl|Further}}, readers actually read less of it. The stock text ("For a topical guide"/"For a chronological guide") ''immediately'' informs readers what type of content follows regardless of what text is part of the linked title; the reader doesn't even have to read it unless there's more than one topical guide or timeline listed. This approach is more effective {{emdash}} indeed ''more concise'' {{emdash}} than requiring readers to read through the entire hatnote. In the proposed redirects, both the uninformitive stock text and the linked title must be read before assessing the relevance of the hatnote. The independence of these templates also represents a significant improvement over lumping "outline" or "timeline" article titles with other linked titles in a single hatnote. 
:The only real benefit here seems to be a reduction in the number of templates. While that may have ''technical'' benefits, I'm having a really difficult time finding the ''encyclopedic'' value of removal. --[[User talk:N8wilson|N8<sub>wilson</sub>]] <span title="Please ping me for reply" style="cursor:help">🔔</span> 20:17, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
::its about space as well. Why do these subset of articles need a hatenote that takes a full line. Why make our redaders scroll more? All these were taken out of the see also template with other pages to its own line as if its the most improtant see also....page after page now have an extra line just for these articles that have always been in dispute.<span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]</span>-[[File:Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg|15px|link=User talk:Moxy]] 00:45, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
:::Why do these hatnotes ''need'' to be reduced to a partial line? The miniscule difference in space is not a compelling argument for overriding the decisions of local editors who already selected these templates over the proposed redirection targets. Reducing scroll distance is not a goal of Wikipedia.  That just leads me back the assertion that there is [[WP:AINT|nothing to fix]] by this proposal.  --[[User talk:N8wilson|N8<sub>wilson</sub>]] <span title="Please ping me for reply" style="cursor:help">🔔</span> 12:58, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
::::They were just added all over....making a new line for just these sub set of articles leading to [[WP:DUE]] problems <small>Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, '''prominence of placement''', the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery</small>. Why are these are articles being highlited over the others? And yes how readers navigate is a concern.. [https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Which_parts_of_an_article_do_readers_read Which parts of an article do readers read] <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]</span>-[[File:Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg|15px|link=User talk:Moxy]] 16:09, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
:::::These are being highlighted over the others because timeline and outline articles are in a drastically different format than the default article and list types. [[User:Thrakkx|Thrakkx]] ([[User talk:Thrakkx|talk]]) 19:23, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
:::::For these templates applying [[WP:NEUTRAL]] (of which [[WP:DUE]] is a part) feels a bit pedantic. Nonetheless, the change in wording from "See also"/"Further information" to "For a topical/chronological guide see" is strictly descriptive and not unduly ''weighted'' to any particular point-of-view. It remains neutral. As for relative placement, that is an article-scope decision; the proposed solution to redirect these templates cannot have any influence on prominence. I fail to see how [[WP:DUE]] applies here, let alone favors either course of action. --[[User talk:N8wilson|N8<sub>wilson</sub>]] <span title="Please ping me for reply" style="cursor:help">🔔</span> 21:28, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
::::::Agree main would be best for [[Engineering#See also]]....the original format. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]</span>-[[File:Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg|15px|link=User talk:Moxy]] 11:55, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' -- have to agree with {{u|N8wilson}} and [[WP:BROKE]] - it ain't.  In addition, there may be other topics that fit under the topic at hand but are slightly different... and that's where being able to know where you're going just by looking - before clicking, comes in real handy.  [[User:Hanyou23|Hanyou23]] ([[User talk:Hanyou23|talk]]) 06:27, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
*:It's bad that things are done backwards here. Cleary no consensus for his existence to begin with. Now content editors are stuck fixing it's spamming all over. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]</span>-[[File:Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg|15px|link=User talk:Moxy]] 03:18, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
*::Has there been? [[User:Hanyou23|Hanyou23]] ([[User talk:Hanyou23|talk]]) 21:01, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per {{noping|N8wilson}}. ― [[User:Kaleeb18|<b style="background:#000;color:#f07b3a;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Kaleeb18</b>]][[User talk:Kaleeb18|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub style="position:relative;right:20q;margin-right:-15px;">Caleb</sub> 13:28, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''</div>