View source for Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 116

{{Wikipedia:Village pump/Archive header}}

== Technical maintenance banner ==

Where's the "Technical maintenance will be performed soon" banner coming from?  [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] has been blank for two weeks.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 01:22, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:There's a global page on Meta. It might be there. I haven't looked. I think its something like Globalsitenotice. [[User:KumiokoCleanStart|Kumioko]] ([[User talk:KumiokoCleanStart|talk]]) 01:28, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
::It's coming from [[meta:CentralNotice|CentralNotice]] on Meta, [http://meta.wikimedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:CentralNotice&method=listNoticeDetail&notice=Generic+maintenance+notice here's the campaign in question]. '''[[User:Theopolisme|<span style="color:#232323;">Theopolisme</span>]] <span style="color:#4F4F4F;">([[User talk:Theopolisme|<span style="color:#4F4F4F;">talk</span>]])</span>''' 01:38, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:::My problem with it is that when I click on 'Read more' I get [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/HTTPS] - which didn't give me a clue about the technical maintenance. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 10:00, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
::::This is related to the above sections [[#HTTPS for logged in users on Wednesday August 21st]] and [[#HTTPS for users with an account]] (I find also "general maintenance" quite vague). ~ [[User:Seb35|Seb35]] [[User talk:Seb35|<small>[^_^]</small>]] [[:fr:User talk:Seb35|[fr]]] 10:11, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::Thanks, but the average reader wouldn't understand that to be the case from the banner, would they? [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 11:01, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::I aggree; you can propose it on Meta if you want (personally, speaking as a translator, I dislike changing things when the translation is done in 90 languages). ~ [[User:Seb35|Seb35]] [[User talk:Seb35|<small>[^_^]</small>]] [[:fr:User talk:Seb35|[fr]]] 14:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::It's more like 380 languages, according to the link above "here's the campaign in question". --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 15:09, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Amazing. I think I'll just ignore it. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 09:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

== Wikispeak ==

Maybe the wrong place to ask this, but are we associated with something called Wikispeak?  I just discovered this verbatim oral version on  [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVVxR6bmEYQ YouTube] of a Wikipedia article I've been active on. It's the June 11, 2013 version and really out of date (it was since cleaned up for A-class review).  It's also a rather strange electronic voice that omits all block quotes, and hence has some awkward jumps from one place to another.  But I was surprised to find this. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 16:47, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

:In general, see [[Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks]] - any and all Wikipedia content can be used, without charge, by anyone, though they are supposed to credit Wikipedia. In particular, while it's impossible to prove a negative, I'm 99.9% sure that Wikispeak is not a project of the Wikimedia Foundation. And WMF doesn't license or otherwise associate with any outside efforts, because they don't need to, given that Wikipedia content is freely reusable. -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 18:35, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

:This may be a copy of something compiled by the [[Wikipedia:Spoken articles|spoken article project]]. [[User:Killiondude|Killiondude]] ([[User talk:Killiondude|talk]]) 22:10, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
::This does not seem to be a part of the Spoken article project. Thank goodness, because it's not very well done. It's [[Speech synthesis|speech synthesis]] that sounds like a robot in an old B-rated sci-fi movie. Unintentionally funny.  [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 23:40, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
:::It sounds like it's using [http://pediaphon.fernuni-hagen.de/~bischoff/radiopedia/index_en.html Pediaphon]. '''[[User:Graham87|Graham]]'''[[User talk:Graham87|<span style="color:green;">87</span>]] 03:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
::::Ah, my apologies. I didn't play the video since I was at work at the time. [[User:Killiondude|Killiondude]] ([[User talk:Killiondude|talk]]) 14:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
:This youtube user has been going for years, but seems to have switched usernames recently (the current "wikispeak4" account is only 3 months old. [https://www.youtube.com/user/wikispeak3 wikispeak3] is blocked for violating youtube's rules (probably spam)). They had thousands of uploads, last time I read about it (I've looked, but cannot find the old discussion).  I don't recall if anyone managed to contact the person who is responsible, but I don't think so. HTH. –[[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 23:08, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

== References ==

What website do you use for formatting/adapting references for Wikipedia?

--[[User:Strower|Strower]] ([[User talk:Strower|talk]]) 11:36, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
:We don't have a house style, but we do have several well used styles.
{{flatlist|
* [[Help:Citation Style 1|Citation Style 1]]
* [[Help:Citation Style 2|Citation Style 2]]
* [[Help:Citation Style Vancouver|Citation Style Vancouver]]
* [[:Category:LSA style citation templates|LSA]]
* [[:Category:Comics citation templates|Comics]]
* [[Wikipedia:Citation templates|Citation templates]]
}}
:--<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 12:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

== problem with HotCat ==

I've enabled the HotCat option in my preference panel, but I do not see any HotCat tool in editing panel. I use Opera 12.15. I've tried it in Firefox 22, but HotCat is not shown there also. Can anyone please tell me what can be the probable cause and solution? --[[User:AsceticRose|<span style="color: dimgray"><b>Ascetic</b></span>]][[User talk: AsceticRose|<span style="color: orangered"><b>Rosé</b></span>]]  16:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
:Do you see anything down by the categories? There should be some combination of +/- and a few other symbols. [[User:Chris857|Chris857]] ([[User talk:Chris857|talk]]) 17:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
::Yes, I got it! Many thanks.--[[User:AsceticRose|<span style="color: dimgray"><b>Ascetic</b></span>]][[User talk: AsceticRose|<span style="color: orangered"><b>Rosé</b></span>]]  17:26, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

== VisualEditor weekly update - 2013-08-22 (MW 1.22wmf14) ==

Hey all,

Here is a copy of the weekly [[mw:VisualEditor/status#2013-08-22 (MW 1.22wmf14)|update]] for the [[Wikipedia:VisualEditor|VisualEditor]] project. This is so that you all know what is happening, and make sure you have as much opportunity to tell us when we're wrong and help guide the priorities for development and improvement:

<div class="toccolours" style="float:none; padding: 10px 15px 10px 15px; display:table;">
VisualEditor was updated as part of the wider [[mw:MediaWiki 1.22/wmf14|MediaWiki 1.22wmf14 branch deployment]] on Thursday 22 August, though many of the changes were made available ahead of this release. In the week since 1.22wmf13, the team worked on fixing bugs and stability and performance improvements to VisualEditor, with some minor work on features.

You can now add and edit <code><nowiki><u></nowiki></code> (underline), <code><nowiki><sub></nowiki></code> (subscript), and <code><nowiki><sup></nowiki></code> (superscript) annotations in experimental mode on MediaWiki.org (bugs [[bugzilla:51609|51609]], [[bugzilla:51612|51612]] and [[bugzilla:51611|51611]] respectively). These, along with the annotations for <code><nowiki><s></nowiki></code> (strikethrough) and <code><nowiki><u></nowiki></code> (underline) which were released last week will be made available on all wikis once the re-design of the toolbar is complete, to avoid them dominating the buttons that are more normally used.

In terms of bugs, firstly, file inclusions which have empty <code>|link=</code> parameters are no longer corrupted on save ([[bugzilla:51963|bug 51963]]). A number of issues related to the undo and redo buttons and keyboard shortcuts not applying to the document were fixed ([[bugzilla:52113|bug 52113]]). Inserting an existing reference into the first paragraph in Firefox no longer inserts it at the start of the document, but where your cursor was ([[bugzilla:52159|bug 52159]]). Finally, after a significant re-write of some of the core of VisualEditor, a number of bugs related to text input and selection in various scripts and using various Input Method Editors (IMEs) were fixed (bugs [[bugzilla:50105|50105]] for Arabic; [[bugzilla:50346|50346]] for Kannada; [[bugzilla:50631|50631]] for Korean; [[bugzilla:51477|51477]] for Devanagari; and [[bugzilla:52716|52716]] for Japanese).

A complete list of individual code commits is available [[mw:MediaWiki 1.22/wmf14/Changelog#VisualEditor|in the 1.22/wmf14 changelog]], and all Bugzilla bugs closed in this period are on [//bugzilla.wikimedia.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&bug_status=RESOLVED&bug_status=VERIFIED&bug_status=CLOSED&target_milestone=VE-deploy-2013-08-22&product=VisualEditor&list_id=228134 Bugzilla's list].<section end="2013-08-22 (MW 1.22wmf14)" />
</div>

Following the regular [[mw:MediaWiki 1.22/Roadmap|MediaWiki deployment roadmap]], this should be deployed here on '''Thursday 29 August'''.

Hope this is helpful! As always, feedback gratefully received, either here or on [[Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback|the enwiki-specific feedback page]].

[[User:Jdforrester (WMF)|Jdforrester (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Jdforrester (WMF)|talk]]) 00:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
== Page view tool for monthly use ==

There use to be a way to get monthly pageviews within a year by changing the YYYYMM part of the URL to just YYYY. E.g., you use to be able to change http://stats.grok.se/en/201308/In_a_World... to http://stats.grok.se/en/2013/In_a_World... and it would yield data points for each month of the year. Is there a way to get monthly pageviews for an entire year anymore?

Also is it possible to get a sorted list of monthly or yearly pageviews of the articles in a category like [[:Category:Wikipedia featured articles]], [[:Category:GA-Class Good articles]] or [[:Category:Wikipedia four award articles]].--[[User:TonyTheTiger|TonyTheTiger]] <small>([[User talk:TonyTheTiger|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/TonyTheTiger|C]] / [[WP:FOUR]] / [[WP:CHICAGO]] / [[WP:WAWARD]])</small> 21:48, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

: Not exactly what you've asked for, but my [[WP:5000]] seems relevant enough to mention. Thanks, [[User:West.andrew.g|West.andrew.g]] ([[User talk:West.andrew.g|talk]]) 14:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

== PDF output of Wikipedia Page is Missing its References ==

I'm not sure who to contact about this, so I hope that you can help or know someone who can.

There seems to be some problems with the PDF output of many wikipedia pages.  For example, the page about the Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth), when saved as a PDF using the print/export options within wikipedia, many of the in-text citations are not included in the PDF output, nor are any of the bibliographic references.

I was wondering if this was a technical problem or a known bug, and if it is being addressed?  I tried to edit the wikipedia page to see if there were problems with how the citations were input in the text, but everything seems to be fine.  The HTML document online looks perfect, it's just the output PDF is missing lots of reference information.  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Dustyfairmount|Dustyfairmount]] ([[User talk:Dustyfairmount|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dustyfairmount|contribs]]) 19:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:It's worse than that - the "Notes" section appears to function, but has 44 footnotes rather than the 15 expected; many of them are garbled, and several should be in "References". I think someone's trying to do something clever with the code here that just isn't working. [[User:Andrew Gray|Andrew Gray]] ([[User talk:Andrew Gray|talk]]) 19:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

::I ''think'' this is related to this bug: {{phab|52090}} [[User:Andrew Gray|Andrew Gray]] ([[User talk:Andrew Gray|talk]]) 19:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
:::The stuff that ''should'' be under References is getting put under Notes, it seems to be merged. Anything inside a {{tlx|cite xxx}} template is dropped, whether it's supposed to be Notes or References. Errors begin with the very first item:
:::[1] By International Astronomical Union convention, the term terra is used only for naming extensive land masses on celestial bodies other than the Earth. Cf.
:::which ends 'Cf.' but should continue 'Blue, Jennifer (2007-07-05). "Descriptor Terms (Feature Types)". Gazetteer of Planetary Nomenclature. USGS. Retrieved 2007-07-05.'; in the article, that is inside a {{tlx|cite web}}. There are some items which I can't explain -
:::[7] http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Earth&action=edit
:::how did that edit link get in there? and wy is there no entry numbered [8]? --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 20:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
::::{{phab|48115}} This was discussed in March when we working on the new templates, but the issue is not confined to the citation templates. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 00:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:Might be [[bugzilla:48872]] --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 08:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

== Mobile Safari browsing on iOS version 6.1 - Back button ==

I was recently using the mobile version of wikipedia.org and noticed
an irritating situation. When I am browsing an article's sub-category
and then click a link to another article, I eventually will return to the original
article I started browsing by clicking the back button on my browser. However,
instead of being taken to the exact place I was in the original article I am taken
to the bottom of the page with all the sub-categories un-clicked or closed. This
is frustrating because some articles have very long sub-categories and it can be
extremely tedious when attempting to return to the exact place where I left off
(the place where I found the link that took me to another article). If Wiki could
somehow change this, so when I hit the back button on my browser the article's
sub-categories that I opened are still open and the page will then, when finished
loading, take me to the exact place I left the article, it would save me a lot of
frustration and time.

I am unsure if this can be fixed by Wiki or if the software and or browser I am using are to blame. 

iOS version 6.1.2 (10B146)
Mobile Safari browser - Settings: Private browsing is turned off. Javascript is on. Pop ups are blocked. Cookies are accepted only from sites visited. 
iPhone 3GS  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/74.100.83.114|74.100.83.114]] ([[User talk:74.100.83.114|talk]]) 04:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Thanks for taking the time to report this! The problem you are reporting sounds like a potential issue in the code of the MediaWiki software or the server configuration. If the problem is reproducible, it would be nice if somebody who has this issue could send the software bug to the 'Bugzilla' bug tracker under product "MediaWiki extensions" and component "MobileFrontend" by following the instructions [[mw:How to report a bug|How to report a bug]]. This is to make developers of the software aware of the issue. If you have done so, please paste the number of the bug report (or the link) here, so others can also inform themselves about the bug's status. Thanks in advance! --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 08:54, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

== 'Listen' template not rendering in mobile view ==

Template {{tl|Listen}}} (e.g. on [[Alice Arnold]] - see [//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Arnold]) does not render in our mobile view. Can anyone see why, or say how we might get this fixed? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 09:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:{{tlx|Listen}} has <code>class="metadata mbox-small"</code> What we need to do is identify a few other objects which use either or both of these classes, and see how those display. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 09:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
::OK, I'm pretty certain that it's the <code>metadata</code> class here, see {{oldid|User:Redrose64/Sandbox7|569843617|User:Redrose64/Sandbox7}} - four boxes show in normal view, but only two in mobile view. The two that show are the ones without <code>metadata</code> --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 09:55, 23 August 2013 (UTC)


{{od}}

Thank you. So, do we:

* remove that class
* style that class to display
* write a special style rule for this combination of classes
* write a special style rule for this template ?

-- <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 10:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:I don't think we can use either of your second or third suggestions. If you go to my sandbox (as above) and examine the page source ({{keypress|Ctrl|U}} in Firefox), the {{tag|table|o}} for the box appears four times in normal view: {{tag|table|params=class="metadata mbox-small" style="border:1px solid #aaa; background-color:#f9f9f9;"}} {{tag|table|params=class="metadata" style="border:1px solid #aaa; background-color:#f9f9f9;"}} {{tag|table|params=class="mbox-small" style="border:1px solid #aaa; background-color:#f9f9f9;"}} {{tag|table|params=style="border:1px solid #aaa; background-color:#f9f9f9;"}} but only appears twice in mobile view - only the third and fourth (the ones which lack <code>metadata</code>) are physically present. Therefore, it's not that there are four tables of which two are hidden by CSS (such as <code>display:none;</code>) - something in the mobile view software is actually removing two of them before the HTML is served.
:I think we need to involve the user who altered {{tlx|listen}} to use {{tlx|side box}}, and the user who put <code>class="metadata"</code> into {{tlx|side box}} - both of these were [[User:Happy-melon]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 10:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

:Side boxes don't show on mobile. This would be something in the parser, 'cos they're not even in the page's source (i.e. not just hidden with CSS). — [[User:Lfdder|Lfdder]] ([[User talk:Lfdder|talk]]) 10:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
::Sideboxes are not supposed to contain content. That's why they carry "metadata". —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 10:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:::Someone should change the description of it then. — [[User:Lfdder|Lfdder]] ([[User talk:Lfdder|talk]]) 11:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
::::We need to change the display, not the description. Or have I misunderstood you? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 11:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::<s>Good luck getting them to implement a switch in {{tl|side box}}. Easiest thing to do is to fork {{tl|side box}} for {{tl|listen}} and take the metadata class out. — [[User:Lfdder|Lfdder]] ([[User talk:Lfdder|talk]]) 11:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)</s>
::::::Never mind, I see {{tl|listen}} is fully protected too....naturally. — [[User:Lfdder|Lfdder]] ([[User talk:Lfdder|talk]]) 11:12, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::I've made an edit request [[Template_talk:Side_box#Edit_request_on_23_August_2013|here]]. Once (and if) that's done we need to make an edit request at {{tl|listen}} to add {{para|metadata}}<code>no</code> to each box. — [[User:Lfdder|Lfdder]] ([[User talk:Lfdder|talk]]) 11:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Recently, Happy Melon hasn't edited more than once or twice a month, if that. Can we move on without waiting for their return? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 11:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

:I haven't been editing much of late, but I still lurk fairly consistently.  You're on exactly the right lines with making the metadata class optional.  I've completed the editprotected request for {{tlx|side box}} and added the parameter to {{tlx|listen}}. [[User:Happy-melon|<b style="color:forestgreen">Happy</b>]]‑[[User talk:Happy-melon|<b style="color:darkorange">melon</b>]] 11:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
::And resolved. Thank you. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 11:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

== 1.22wmf13 added new capabilities to gallery tag - "they" need to update help/documentation ==

1.22wmf13 brought a new attribute named "mode" to gallery tag. unfortunately i can't update the appropriate help and doc pages (specifically [[Help:Gallery]] and [[Help:Gallery tag]]) because i'm in a (not very successful) wikibreak. for some reason i did not see any tech bulletin even mentioning it, never mind actually explaining or documenting it. IMO this is a significant improvement to the gallery tag, and it will be a shame if it'll go unused because of lack of documentation. peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 16:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:added late: some of it is explained in [[mw:Help:Images#Rendering a gallery of images]]. note that this has nothing to do with template {{t|Gallery}}, which uses traditional html table to show galleries, and does not use the "gallery" mediawiki tag. peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 16:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
::See [[Help talk:Gallery tag#MediaWiki 1.22/wmf13]] where I noted this update a week ago and linked to some rough examples. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 22:55, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:::btw, there are some examples [[Commons:Village_pump#.3CGallery.3E_tag]] and [[commons:User:Bawolff/Space,_the_final_fronteir]]. I also pasted an example below. If anyone has any feedback about it or any questions about it, please let me know. The primary target users for this features is commons, but if its also useful to Wikipedia, all the better. There is also a configuration option that can be set on a per wiki basis to use a different gallery mode on the auto-generated galleries on category pages and [[Special:newfiles]]. [[User:Bawolff|Bawolff]] ([[User talk:Bawolff|talk]]) 23:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

<gallery mode="packed-hover">
File:Meerkat feb 09.jpg|''[[Suricata suricatta]]'' (Meerkat)
File:Erdmännchen, Suricata suricatta 1.JPG|''[[Suricata suricatta]]'' (Meerkat)
File:Suricata.suricatta.6861.jpg|''[[Suricata suricatta]]'' (Meerkat)
File:Suricates, Namibia-2.jpg|''[[Suricata suricatta]]'' (Meerkat)
File:Galerella sanguinea Zoo Praha 2011-2.jpg|''[[Galerella sanguinea]]'' (Slender Mongoose) 
File:Felis silvestris silvestris.jpg|''[[Felis silvestris|Felis silvestris silvestris]]''
File:Six weeks old cat (aka).jpg|''[[Felis silvestris catus]]'' (A Young Cat)
File:Felis catus-cat on snow.jpg|''[[Felis catus]]'' (cat on snow)
File:Tired 20-year-old cat.jpg|''[[Felis silvestris catus]]'' (Tired 20-year-old cat)
File:Cat November 2010-1a.jpg|''[[Felis silvestris catus]]'' (Cat)
File:Felis silvestris silvestris Luc Viatour.jpg|''[[Felis silvestris silvestris]]'' (European wildcat)
File:June odd-eyed-cat cropped.jpg|''[[Felis catus]]'' (Domestic cat)
File:Lynx kitten.jpg|''[[Lynx lynx]]'' (A Young Lynx)
</gallery>

== Currently having an issue with "edit conflicts" ==

On the talkpage of [[Chelsea Manning]], I'm constantly being notified on "conflicts" with... blank space, apparently <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em; font-family: raavi">[[User:Crisis|<span style="color: Blue">Crisis</span>]]<span style="color: Blue">.</span>[[User talk:Crisis|<span style="color: DarkBlue">E</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Crisis|<span style="color: DarkBlue">X</span>]][[User:Crisis/Signatures|<span style="color: DarkBlue">E</span>]]</span> 16:55, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:I'm not surprised, with [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Chelsea_Manning&action=history 50 edits in 45 mins]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 17:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

== Infobox with broken code in the [[Human]] article ==

Could someone please take a look at the infobox in the [[Human]] article and determine what has messed it up? There's a lot of bolded wikicode that's broken and visible. [[User:Heymid|<span style="color:green;">Hey</span>]][[User talk:Heymid|<span style="color:red;">'''''mid'''''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contribs]]) 20:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:A [[WP:NULLEDIT]] fixed it. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 20:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
::It wasn't a null edit; the user {{diff2|569910712|changed}} the infobox template from {{tl|Speciesbox}} to {{tl|Taxobox}}. A null edit is an edit that doesn't change the content at all to the page. But it's a mystery why the wikicode appeared broken even though the Speciesbox template's most recent edit was on 30 June 2013. [[User:Heymid|<span style="color:green;">Hey</span>]][[User talk:Heymid|<span style="color:red;">'''''mid'''''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contribs]]) 21:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:::What I meant was that ''I'' did a null edit, after which the page was fine. Null edits do not show in the page history, and it is not possible to provide a link to a diff. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 21:12, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
::::I'd be curious to know the sequence of your edit and my edit. <s>If yours did indeed fix it, should I now undo my edit, cross my fingers, and see what happens?</s> [[User:Rivertorch|Rivertorch]] ([[User talk:Rivertorch|talk]]) 21:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
::::Redrose64's null edit did not fix the problem; see [[Talk:Human#Infobox with broken code|the article's talk page]]. [[User:Heymid|<span style="color:green;">Hey</span>]][[User talk:Heymid|<span style="color:red;">'''''mid'''''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contribs]]) 21:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
: I posted details at [[Talk:Human#Infobox with broken code]]; in short, it looks like an edit to one of the many taxobox data sub-templates made some other taxobox sub-template exceed its limits. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 21:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

== &lt;wbr> ==

{{tag|wbr|o}} is now allowed; see [[Help talk:HTML in wikitext#wbr]] where I have a preliminary description. [[Wikipedia:Line-break handling]] needs to be updated. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 23:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
== Mobile view doesn't handle permalinks properly ==

{{tracked|53297}}
If you go to [[Special:Permalink/569843617]] in normal view, you get an old revision of the page. If you click "Mobile view" at the bottom, you get the ''current'' revision. If you're already in mobile view and click [[Special:Permalink/569843617]] you don't get the old version - you get the diff of the edit which created that old version. How can I create a true permalink for mobile view? --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 11:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
: Normally, I use {{tl|oldid2}} for making permalinks in wikitext. Does {{oldid2|569843617|this link}} perform in the same way on your mobile? --[[User:RexxS|RexxS]] ([[User talk:RexxS|talk]]) 23:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
: Update - from my mobile, the oldid2 link takes me to the old version of the page as it should, rather than the diff. However, as you may expect clicking the 'mobile view' link at the bottom of the page returns the current version. That link doesn't seem capable of spotting the arguments after '?' in the url. --[[User:RexxS|RexxS]] ([[User talk:RexxS|talk]]) 23:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
::I don't have a mobile that is capable of being used as a web browser (I use the "mobile view" link at page bottom to see what Andy Mabbett has been describing). Your link using {{tlx|oldid2}} takes me back to the desktop view, which defeats the object of showing what a specific revision looks like in mobile view. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 23:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:The url query part with the oldid is just missing in the link. I have reported this problem in bugzilla. Which of course anyone can do: [[mw:How_to_report_a_bug|How to report a bug]]. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 11:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
::Please see my original post. The lack of a query string in the "Mobile view" link is only part of the issue: if you construct the URL by hand [//en.m.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?oldid=569843617 like this] you don't get the expected old revision, you get a diff. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 15:34, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Meta: I've commented before that we don't have a centralised place to discuss issues with our mobile site. Perhaps this page is adequate, or do we need ''WP:Village pump (mobile)'' or some other page? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 23:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

== Styling for preformatted text has changed ==

Has anybody else noticed that the styling for <pre>preformatted text</pre> has changed?
 It's the same for text with a leading space
The border has changed from (I think) <code>1px dashed #2f6fab</code> to <code>1px solid #dddddd</code> --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 21:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
: Yes, it did, per {{phab|29047}}. Isn't it prettier? [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 21:52, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:: I like the new style quite a bit :) '''[[User:Theopolisme|<span style="color:#232323;">Theopolisme</span>]] <span style="color:#4F4F4F;">([[User talk:Theopolisme|<span style="color:#4F4F4F;">talk</span>]])</span>''' 22:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:::I left a note at {{tl|pre}} a few days ago. {{tl|pre2}} is OK since it uses <code>#tag:pre</code> ({{xtag|pre}} is actually a parser tag, and not HTML). --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 22:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
::::It is both a parser tag and HTML... it parses it (minimally) and outputs it ''as'' HTML. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 11:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
:: Prettier? Not really, IMO. But meh. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 11:36, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

== HotCats doesn't work ==

Does anyone know how to get the HotCats to work? I've had it for a long time, but then it disappeared and I can't seem to get it back on. I have tried turning it off and on and it doesn't help!--[[User:Sanya3|Sanya3]] ([[User talk:Sanya3|talk]]) 04:36, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

:It looks like following [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 107#WP:HOTCAT on as a default|this]] they turned it off for everyone. See discussion [[Wikipedia talk:HotCat#HotCat problem?|here]]. (I see Sanya3 found this already.) For me, I just had to turn it on again in Preferences > Gadgets and it is back. [[User:Markhurd|Mark Hurd]] ([[User talk:Markhurd|talk]]) 16:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

== [[m:Requests for comment/Global ban for Ottava Rima]] ==

<div class="mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
Per the [[m:Global bans]] global policy, you are informed of the discussion above. Please comment there and feel free to appropriately distribute more widely in prominent community venues in order to «Inform the community on all wikis where the user has edited». [[m:User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 10:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
</div>
<!-- EdwardsBot 0563 -->

== Graph format on Page Count Stats Page ==

From my experience with government financial charts and manufacturing charts, they are mostly oriented to at least providing tick marks to easily recognize Mon-Fri cycles, and to separate week-end from week-day performance and cycles, ie, 7-days cycles are identifiable. Could someone assess how easy or difficult this would be to put on the Wiki Page Stats Graphs which do not presently utilize them? Can the Wiki graphs take advantage of the time-tested technique of effective graph communication/presentation techniques from industry? [[Special:Contributions/99.140.197.29|99.140.197.29]] ([[User talk:99.140.197.29|talk]]) 13:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

== update prefs wording to "edit source" ==

The Preferences pages should be updated, now that pages have section links that used to say "[edit]" now saying "[edit source]", for some editors including the lead, and a tab link that used to say "Edit" now saying "Edit source". I've just [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Help:Section&curid=1002371&diff=570017785&oldid=568056906 edited] Help:Section to that effect, except where it discussed Preferences. I can't edit the Preferences pages. Where the updates should be:
* Preferences > Gadgets tab > Appearance > "Add an [edit] link for the lead section of a page"
* Preferences > Editing tab > General Options > "Enable section editing via [edit] links".

(All brackets so in originals.)

[[User:Nick Levinson|Nick Levinson]] ([[User talk:Nick Levinson|talk]]) 17:27, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

== Editor of article subsequently deleted, then turned into redirect ==

Someone asked me [[User_talk:Sphilbrick#Ionut_Ursu|here]] who was the original editor of an article which is now a redirect. I don't know how to find it out. Can someone help?--[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="color:#002868;padding:0 4px;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">SPhilbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style=";padding:0 4px;color:# 000;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">(Talk)</span>]] 18:39, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
:Try [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&target=Ionut_Ursu this page] (I can't see because I'm not admin here). --[[User:Stryn|Stryn]] ([[User talk:Stryn|talk]]) 18:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
::[[User:Sebybc]], who hasn't edited since 2011. [[User:Nthep|NtheP]] ([[User talk:Nthep|talk]]) 18:49, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
:::Thanks--[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="color:#002868;padding:0 4px;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">SPhilbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style=";padding:0 4px;color:# 000;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">(Talk)</span>]] 20:08, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
== Viewing our own deleted contribs ==

Okay, this may or may not be in the right place (I never know when it comes to the village pump), but why can't we view our own deleted contributions? I don't see any credible reason in why we can't, other than maybe some technical reasons that can be easily solved. [[User:Insulam Simia|Insulam Simia]] ([[User talk:Insulam Simia|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Insulam Simia|contribs]]) 17:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

:The search {{Search link|view own deleted contributions||ns4}} finds several previous discussions, for example [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 87#See my own deleted contributions]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 23:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
::So it doesn't seem feasible when you take in legal considerations. [[User:Insulam Simia|Insulam Simia]] ([[User talk:Insulam Simia|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Insulam Simia|contribs]]) 09:01, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
:::If you really need to see deleted contribs, but don't feel up to going through [[WP:RFA]], you could try for [[WP:RESEARCHER]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 11:33, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
::::Well, I don't really need them, I was just curious. I not even sure how you attain the researcher right anyway and an RFA seems silly for me when I've only been here three months. [[User:Insulam Simia|Insulam Simia]] ([[User talk:Insulam Simia|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Insulam Simia|contribs]]) 12:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

== Javascript makes {{tlx|image array}} look like garbage on mobile ==

[[File:Template image array bug.png|right|200px]]

The mobile version of this site resizes the images in {{tlx|image array}} after the page loads, which causes the text to misalign itself. Oddly, disabling Javascript causes the template to render correctly. I attached two screenshots—the top is with Javascript enabled, the bottom with Javascript disabled.

This is Safari on my iPhone 4S; I haven't tried any other devices. —[[User:Designate|Designate]] ([[User talk:Designate|talk]]) 17:46, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
: I added an explicit width statement to the cells.  does this improve the display? [[User:Frietjes|Frietjes]] ([[User talk:Frietjes|talk]]) 15:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

== Using Google Maps home page as a reference ==

I've discovered a three-figure number pages using the Google Maps home page as a reference. Please see [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates#Links to Google Maps|this discussion]], and others linking directly to specific locations on that site about how to resolve this. Some scripting assistance may be required. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 16:20, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

== [[m:Special:MyLanguage/Tech/News/2013/34|Tech News: 2013-34]]; ==

<div class="plainlinks mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
Latest '''[[m:Special:MyLanguage/Tech/News|tech news]]''' from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. [[m:Special:MyLanguage/Tech/News/2013/34|Translations]] are available.

'''New features'''

* The previous version of MediaWiki ([[mw:MediaWiki 1.22/wmf13|1.22/wmf13]]) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on August 15. It [[mw:MediaWiki 1.22/Roadmap|was enabled]] on non-Wikipedia sites on August 19, and on all Wikipedias on August 22. [https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/79212/]
* The latest version of MediaWiki ([[mw:MediaWiki 1.22/wmf14|1.22/wmf14]]) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on August 22. It [[mw:MediaWiki 1.22/Roadmap|will be enabled]] on non-Wikipedia sites on August 26, and on all Wikipedias on August 29. [https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/80418/]
* You can now use new [[mw:Help:Images#mode parameter|styles of galleries]]. Please give feedback to [[m:User:Bawolff|User:Bawolff]]. [https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/67885/]
* You can now visit a random page in a category, for example [[m:w:en:Special:RandomInCategory/Science|Special:RandomInCategory/Science]]. ([[bugzilla:25931|25931]]) [https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/71997/]
* You can now use the [http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-wbr-element <code><nowiki><wbr></nowiki></code>] HTML5 tag to say where a word can be cut. ([[bugzilla:52468|52468]]) [https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/63408/]
* Gadget authors: you can now use the <code><nowiki>wikipage.content</nowiki></code> hook, so that your scripts are re-run when a page is changed after the <code><nowiki>document-ready</nowiki></code> event (for example using Ajax). ([[bugzilla:30713|30713]]) [https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/74313/]

'''Problems fixed'''
* There was a bug where file redirects didn't work when a file was renamed; it is now fixed. There is still an issue with purging, but it should be fixed soon. ([[bugzilla:52200|52200]])
* [[Special:SpecialPages#mw-specialpagesgroup-maintenance|{{int:specialpages-group-maintenance}}]] provided by special pages will now all be updated on each wiki every six months. This will for example give you recent information on uncategorized pages, unused templates and most wanted pages ([[bugzilla:15434#c70|see details]]).
* There was a bug that caused false positives for anti-blanking edit filters; it is now fixed. ([[bugzilla:52077|52077]]) [https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/76082/]

'''[[mw:Special:MyLanguage/VisualEditor/Portal|VisualEditor]] news'''
* The "edit" and "edit source" tabs and section edit links can now be changed more easily; for example, some wikis are using "edit source" for wikitext editing, and "edit <sup>beta</sup>" for VisualEditor. You can ask for the same change in [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Wikimedia&component=Site%20requests bugzilla].
* You can now edit references that are added inside a <code><nowiki><references></nowiki></code> block. ([[bugzilla:51741|51741]])
* You can now test on [[mw:|mediawiki.org]] new basic tools to add and edit struck text (with the [[File:VisualEditor - Icon - Strikethrough-a.svg|border]] button for the <code><nowiki><s></nowiki></code> tag), lower text ([[File:VisualEditor - Icon - Subscript.svg|border]] for <code><nowiki><sub></nowiki></code>), upper text ([[File:VisualEditor - Icon - Superscript.svg|border]] for <code><nowiki><sup></nowiki></code>), underlined text ([[File:VisualEditor - Icon - Underline-a.svg|border]] for <code><nowiki><u></nowiki></code>), computer code ([[File:VisualEditor - Icon - Code.svg|border]] for <code><nowiki><code></nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki><tt></nowiki></code>), math text ([[File:VisualEditor - Icon - Equation.svg|border]] for <code><nowiki><math></nowiki></code>), [[m:w:en:Egyptian hieroglyphs|Egyptian hieroglyphs]] ([[File:VisualEditor - Icon - Hieroglyphics.svg|border]] for <code><nowiki><hiero></nowiki></code>), and to say that text is in another language ([[File:VisualEditor - Icon - Language.svg|border]] for <code><nowiki>lang="ar" dir="rtl"</nowiki></code>). ([[bugzilla:51609|51609]], [[bugzilla:51612|51612]], [[bugzilla:51611|51611]], [[bugzilla:51590|51590]], [[bugzilla:51610|51610]], [[bugzilla:52352|52352]])
* You can now use VisualEditor with the Opera browser. [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36000]

'''Future'''
* Starting on August 26, you will be able to use data from Wikidata on Wikivoyage sites. [http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-ambassadors/2013-August/000339.html]
* Starting on August 27, you will also get notifications on the mobile site if you're logged in to a wiki using notifications. [http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-ambassadors/2013-August/000357.html]
* Starting on August 28, all users with an account will be using [[m:w:en:HTTPS|HTTPS]] to access Wikimedia sites. HTTPS brings better security and improves your privacy. Some countries (like China) will not use HTTPS. If HTTPS causes problems for you, [[m:HTTPS|tell us on meta]]. [http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-ambassadors/2013-August/000345.html]
* Starting on August 29, you will get the code editor interface to edit JavaScript and CSS pages on all wikis. [http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-ambassadors/2013-August/000357.html]
* The plan to use [[m:w:en:Solr|Solr]] for search in MediaWiki was changed; instead, [[m:w:en:elasticsearch|Elasticsearch]] is now planned. [http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2013-July/070496.html]

'''''[[m:Special:MyLanguage/Tech/News|Tech news]]''' prepared by [[m:Special:MyLanguage/Tech/Ambassadors|tech ambassadors]] and posted by [[m:Global message delivery|Global message delivery]] • [[m:Special:MyLanguage/Tech/News#contribute|Contribute]] • [[m:Special:MyLanguage/Tech/News/2013/34|Translate]] • [[m:Tech|Get help]] • [[m:Talk:Tech/News|Give feedback]] • [[m:Global message delivery/Targets/Tech ambassadors|Subscribe or unsubscribe]].''
</div> 19:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
<!-- EdwardsBot 0564 -->

== HotCat ==

Hello.  In about the last 24 hours, my HotCat has been disabled.  I tried removing it from my Preferences and re-storing it, but to no avail.  Is there something else I should do? Thx. --[[User:Rosiestep|Rosiestep]] ([[User talk:Rosiestep|talk]]) 23:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
:{{ping|Rosiestep}} - If [[Wikipedia talk:HotCat#HotCat problem?]] doesn't solve your problem, I suggest you post at [[Wikipedia talk:HotCat#Hotcat not working]] and specify the browser you're using.  Good luck!  [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 01:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

== Updating a table ==

I'm trying to go through the [[WP:MED]] stub-class high-importance articles, looking for a project to [[WP:Wikiogre|address unnatural appetites]], and I'm doing some cleanup on the way.  When I go back to the page, though, the assessment grid doesn't update (i.e. stub/high still shows 21 hits including [[Developmental milestones]] which is now a redirect rather than an article.  Do these update on a schedule?  [[Special:Contributions/71.231.186.92|71.231.186.92]] ([[User talk:71.231.186.92|talk]]) 04:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
:Yes, the assessment system is updated by bot, and it happens once a day. But, you can update it now, just follow the instruction at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SelectionBot/Web/Guide#Update_project_data] and it will update now. [[User:Vanisaac|Van]][[User talk:Vanisaac|Isaac]]<sub><small>[[WP:WikiProject Writing systems|WS]] [[WP:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology|Vex]]</small></sub><sup style="margin-left:-7.0ex">[[Special:Contributions/Vanisaac|contribs]]</sup> 04:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks.  [[Special:Contributions/71.231.186.92|71.231.186.92]] ([[User talk:71.231.186.92|talk]]) 04:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
== Category contents summary ==

What happened to the summary "preview" of categories?  It used to be that one could see a quick summary along the lines of "(12 C, 68 P, 3 F)", indicating that the category contained 12 subcategories, 68 pages, and 3 files.  Now, it appears as "(12 categories, 68 pages, 3 files)", leading to a monstrous mass of black text any time that a category contains a large number of subcategories (e.g. [[:Category:Years in baseball]]). I strongly recommend reverting to the old format. -- '''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Black Falcon|talk]])</sup> 18:37, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
:I did that. I found "(12 C, 68 P, 3 F)" to be terribly cryptic, so I wanted to try something more reader-friendly. (I only just discovered there is a tooltip, but that was not very obvious.) Perhaps there is a way to have less text, but not be as cryptic as the original labels. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 19:16, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
::i tend to agree with [[User:Black Falcon]]. if you think the tooltip is too obscure, maybe you want to underline the letters (or dash-underline them) to signal to the reader that there is a tooltip, like so: <span style="border-bottom: black dashed 1px; cursor:pointer;" title="12 Sub Categories">12 C</span>, <span style="border-bottom: black dashed 1px; cursor:pointer;" title="68 Pages">68 P</span>, <span style="border-bottom: black dashed 1px; cursor:pointer;" title="3 Files">3 F</span>. peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 19:33, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
:::That would have to be done in the software. I can't underline them without destroying the original tooltip. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 19:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
::<small>([[Help:Edit conflict|edit conflict]])</small> Thanks for responding. I see your point about "(12 C, 68 P, 3 F)" not being readily clear to someone who is not familiar with our category system. However, I don't think that this information (in either its condensend or expanded form) would be useful to such a person. After all, if one is unfamiliar with categories, what is the advantage of knowing that a particular category contains a certain number of subcategories, pages, and files? Or, to put it differently, I think of the labels as being for editors more than for readers. -- '''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Black Falcon|talk]])</sup> 19:34, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
:::I think that is a totally wrong assumption. Categories are just as important for readers as they are for experienced editors, and it should be easy for readers to readily understand how they work, without having to read yet another help page. Every element of Wikipedia's interface should be as intuitive as possible; there is absolutely no benifit from obsfucating such elements. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 19:46, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
::::I think that Edokter is right, and I personally haven't found it to be difficult, although perhaps the categories I visit aren't the ones most likely to have the "monstrous mass of black text" problem.  [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 19:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::That might be a factor. The visual impact of the change is limited when one looks at a category such as [[:Category:Galloanserae]]; however, the impact is distracting when one looks at a category such as [[:Category:Military units and formations of the United States Army by type]]. -- '''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Black Falcon|talk]])</sup> 20:36, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
::::I don't disagree, but I don't see how this change impacts that. If a reader knows what "category", "page", and "file" mean in the context of categorization on Wikipedia, then he or she could easily understand what "C", "P", and "F" stand for. If he or she does not know what "category", "page", and "file" mean, then listing them in their unabbreviated form is not going to change anything. -- '''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Black Falcon|talk]])</sup> 20:36, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
:::I tried making it a bit smaller, but these messages do not accept HTML; it leaks through unescaped. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 21:02, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
::::You could style them via CSS using <code>.CategoryTreeItem span[dir="ltr"]</code> (based on a cursory look at the source code), although it feels hacky. '''[[User:Theopolisme|<span style="color:#232323;">Theopolisme</span>]] <span style="color:#4F4F4F;">([[User talk:Theopolisme|<span style="color:#4F4F4F;">talk</span>]])</span>''' 15:15, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::Too hacky, yes. The summary should have a class (categoryTreeSummary). <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 18:38, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
:I understand (6 C, 15 P, 2 F) might be cryptic the first time it is seen, but for any category with more than a couple of subcategories the visual impact is massive, especially when you have the enhanced javascript triangles turned on allowing you to see the tree of subcategories. [[User:Markhurd|Mark Hurd]] ([[User talk:Markhurd|talk]]) 16:45, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
::What do you mean with "enhanced javascript triangles"? <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 18:38, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
:::If the cat has subcats, then each entry under "Subcategories This category has the following x subcategories, out of y total." has toggles for expanding or collapsing the entries. They used to be look like '''[+]'''/'''[&minus;]''' if expandable/collapsible; now they are <span style="color:blue;">►</span>/<span style="color:blue;">▼</span> respectively. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 19:46, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
::::I know that... I made them that way long ago. But they're not "enhanced javascript"; it's "plain old CSS". The expanding/collapsing is by virtue of the CategoryTree extension, which is enabled by default and cannot be turned off. Perhaps I'm thrown off by the comment "''especially when you have the enhanced javascript triangles turned on''", meaning he simply has the tree expanded? I was worried I might have missed an option for some 'enhanced' category page, like we have for watchlist. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 20:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::you can question the use of the word "enhanced", but of course this is JS. saying that this is just "plain old CSS" is just wrong. peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 20:26, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::The triangles are pure HTML/CSS. Only the expanding/collapsing is javascript. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 20:33, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
::Sorry for the confusion. I assumed it was a feature I'd turned on. [[User:Markhurd|Mark Hurd]] ([[User talk:Markhurd|talk]]) 11:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

== Aug 25 2013 slowness ==

Slowness for hours this morning in loading English Wikipedia pages (to fully load, that is, one tab very slowly appears on the page, then the next one slowly appears, slowly, slowly).  Also, Commons repeatedly times out before it can load. Wikisource and other languages Wikipedia seem to load fine.[[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 15:36, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
:Only thing I can see on https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Server_admin_log are some low disk space issues. Is this still a problem today? --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 11:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
:::I was logged off for several hours after I posted this.  When I logged on again, everything was OK.  Thanks for replying. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 17:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

== Putting two ISBNs in {cite book} ==

What's the way, if any, around this unknown parameter flag, e.g: "{{cite book|title=Iconotropism: turning toward pictures|editor=Ellen Spolsky|publisher=Bucknell University Press|year=2004|isbn10=0838755429|no-tracking=yes<!-- changed from template-doc-demo in September 2020 -->|isbn=978-0-8387-5542-6|chapter=William Holman Hunt's ''The Scapegoat'': Rite of Forgiveness/Transference of Blame|author=[[Albert Boime]]}}" ? Thanks. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 20:03, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
:Just leave out {{para|isbn10|0838755429}}. It has never been a valid parameter; the guidance at {{tlx|cite book}} is to give just the ISBN-13 in the [[Template:Cite book#csdoc_isbn|{{para|isbn}} parameter]]. This is one of those perennial questions at [[Template talk:Cite book]] and other pages. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks. Apologies for being so annual. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 07:57, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

== Edit conflicts and section editing ==

{{tracked|53446}}

I noticed recently on [[Talk:Chelsea Manning]] that I was getting edit conflicts while section editing, even though the edits that conflicted with mine were to a different section. I don't recall noticing this before, and [[Help:Edit conflict]] still says it shouldn't happen. Does anyone know whether something has changed? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</sup></small> 22:15, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
:I can confirm this happening to me as well, at the same page. — [[User:Scott Martin|'''<span style="color:#000">Scott</span>''']] <span style="color:#900">•</span> [[User talk:Scott Martin|''<span style="color:#000">talk</span>'']] 22:16, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

::I did some manual archiving today of old sections, via section editing, but now that I look at the history, I see that almost no one else made edits while I was doing it, so I've stopped in case I was causing lots of edit conflicts. I got two edit conflicts during the archiving, and both were to sections other than the one I was editing. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</sup></small> 22:25, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
:::Already [[#Currently having an issue with "edit conflicts"|noted two days ago]]. My suggestion: don't post to that page without first reading the rest of it - somebody else is bound to have already said the same thing that you want to say. Are there any other high-traffic pages with this problem? --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

::::That's the only one I've noticed it on. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</sup></small> 22:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

::::I recall that this happened at [[Death of Michael Jackson]] when that story was raging. [[User:Tarc|Tarc]] ([[User talk:Tarc|talk]]) 22:59, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

{{od}} What's the best way to bring this to the attention of people who can fix it? I experienced seven edit conflicts and two saves that didn't take last night while trying to edit a section of [[Talk:Chelsea Manning]]. I would normally have given up but persevered to see how long it would take to get the edit saved. When I checked the history, seven people had indeed edited the article, but only three had edited that section. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</sup></small> 20:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
:Please [[Wikipedia:Report_a_bug#Reporting_a_bug|report a bug]]. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] - [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 08:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks for the link. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</sup></small> 01:42, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::According to [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]]:<blockquote>[[bugzilla:48429#c49|Section editing has never had any special case to help with edit conflicts --<br />it was always dealt with using the generic three-way merge feature (...)]]</blockquote> [[User talk:Helder.wiki|Helder]] 12:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
:::Yes, but if there's a new bug, it could be caused by either the section replacement algorithm, or the three-way merge itself. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] - [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 21:13, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
::::I don't understand Tim Starling's post. It's still happening by the way. I've just had two edit conflicts, though the others were posting in other sections, and yesterday I had seven. It's making interaction very difficult. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</sup></small> 01:42, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

{{od}} [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53446 Reported] [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</sup></small> 01:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

== Nearby & replacing Google Maps' Wikipedia layer ==

It seems that Google Maps are retiring their Wikipedia layer. I'm awaiting confirmation, but if true, that's very sad. I was involved in liaison with Google to get that set up to use {{tl|Coord}}, some years ago, and people I've showed it to have always found it useful. The problem is, Google kept it hidden away, so I wouldn't be surprised if stats showed that people didn't use it much - at least not as much as they might have done. 

It strikes me that we could re-purpose some of the code used to generate ''Special:Nearby'', and get it to spit out KML , whose URL could be passed to Google Maps, or any other KML-aware system.

Is that do-able? Or should we be building our own equivalent of the Google Maps layer, using OSM tiles on our own server? [[User:Kolossos]] did [//toolserver.org/~kolossos/openlayers/kml-on-ol.php?lat=51.52214&lon=-0.06012&zoom=10&lang=en something like that], but it seems to be using an out-of-date or otherwise in complete data set - even so, switch (under "Optionen") to English or your language of choice. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 22:43, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
:"''The new Google Maps simplified navigation and removed many useful features... Layers like Wikipedia, weather, webcams, photos, videos, previous searches are no longer available, while transit, traffic and bicycling can be found in the "getting around" box.''" [http://googlesystem.blogspot.nl/2013/05/the-new-google-maps-now-available.html] [[User:Romaine|Romaine]] ([[User talk:Romaine|talk]]) 07:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
::The "Nearby"-function is unusable to show Wikipedia-POI's on a map. The database behind the nearby-function doesn't support relevance-criteria, so you can use it only in highest zoom levels of a map. My database use a relevance-criteria the article-length and have also so additional, reduced databases-table to be fast on low zoomlevel. Last update is two week old, I could update more often if Toolserver would be faster or we would have PostGIS on Toollabs. --[[User:Kolossos|Kolossos]] ([[User talk:Kolossos|talk]]) 22:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
:::Thank you for the updated URL for your tool; that looks much more complete - a really impressive tool. Would it take the traffic if we publicised it more? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 23:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
::I know little of what difficulties are involved, but hope a solution can be found for smartphones. I mostly use Google Maps for Android in the field, looking for unphotographed Wikipedia articles wherever I may be. Few days ago GM updated itself to v7, which is Wikiless. I was cast down into a blue funk until I found that I could revert to the old version.  As for whether the need for a Wikimap on a phone screen would best be met by a new Wikimap for Android application, or an improvement of one of the old Wikimedia apps, or by something at the Wikipedia mobile web site end, I have no idea but hope something can be done before the old Google Maps for Android becomes unavailable. [[User:Jim.henderson|Jim.henderson]] ([[User talk:Jim.henderson|talk]]) 23:51, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
:::You can use my tool also to looking for [https://toolserver.org/~kolossos/openlayers/kml-on-ol.php?lat=51.52214&lon=-0.06012&zoom=10&lang=en&photo=no unphotographed WP articles]. It's a nearly unknown feature by using parameter "photo=no". --[[User:Kolossos|Kolossos]] ([[User talk:Kolossos|talk]]) 21:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
:My understanding is that people are currently working on an OSM tile server (basically a renderer for OpenStreetMap's data).  See [[bugzilla:33980]].   Once that is in place, it should be possible to add a Wikipedia layer with some extra work.  I don't object to proprietary services using our data (as long as they comply with the license), but I think we should emphasize supporting the open ecosystem, which in this case means OpenStreetMap. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] - [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 06:22, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
::Yes, we should wait for WMF's OSM-tile-server. The idea was also to merge my tool ([https://de.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Hilfe:OpenStreetMap/en OSM-Gadget]) together with WikiMiniAtlas. We would use Leaflet instead of OpenLayers and would clean-up the interface. Additionally we would take more care for mobile. Any help for this development would be welcome. --[[User:Kolossos|Kolossos]] ([[User talk:Kolossos|talk]]) 21:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

== pdf table to wikitable ==

I want to convert some data from a free (NO COPYRIGHT CLAIMED UNDER TITLE 17 U.S.C) pdf table [http://msi.nga.mil/MSISiteContent/StaticFiles/NAV_PUBS/NIMA_LOL/Pub111/Pub111bk.pdf] to a wikitable. Is there a tool for?. --Best regards, [[User:Keysanger|Keysanger]] ([[User talk:Keysanger|what?]]) 09:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
:The [http://excel2wiki.net/index.php Excel-to-Wiki Converter] should work. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 09:42, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
::It doesn't work. It makes a wikitable-row of every pdf-cell. And the pdf table has also empty cells, thus isn't possible to use it with other auto editors. Any idea?.--Best regards, [[User:Keysanger|Keysanger]] ([[User talk:Keysanger|what?]]) 09:59, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

== Mobile problems ==

I'm having some problems with Wikipedia using Opera Mini on my phone. Does anyone know what's wrong?

# Delete all cookies.
# Type in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:VPT?mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop in the address bar.
# Type in the same address a second time.

The first time I typed in the URL, I got the mobile edition of Wikipedia over an HTTP connection, although I explicitly typed in HTTPS and used the option to disable the mobile edition. The second time, I got the desktop edition over HTTPS as requested. Why didn't I get this the first time too? --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 21:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

== Unblock Ticket Request System ==

This is a notification that the [[WP:UTRS|Unblock Ticket Request System]] will be migrating to [[WP:WMFLabs|WMF Labs]] on Sept 7th, 2013.  A redirect will be set up on the current toolserver account.  For any questions, please contact me on my userpage.--v/r - [[User:TParis|T]][[User_talk:TParis|P]] 02:00, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
== Data too large to save ==

I'm trying to do a null edit on [[Template:Infobox officeholder]] to update its TemplateData but I keep getting
:Data too large to save (174,407 bytes, limit is 65,535)
whats going on?--[[User:Salix alba|Salix]] ([[User talk:Salix alba|talk]]): 06:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
: Apparently the TemplateData cannot be larger than 65535 bytes compressed, see {{phab|53740}}. You'll have to somehow trim it down. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 10:20, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks. Quite easy to cut down in size as a lot of repeated parameters.--[[User:Salix alba|Salix]] ([[User talk:Salix alba|talk]]): 11:26, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
: There's a patch waiting to be merged that will make TemplateData compress the data before storing it, in practice increasing the limit approximately tenfold: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/75330/. [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 14:59, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

== Video template ==

I guess I have already invented a template for posting official video of our major sporting events.  This one:

[[Image:TV-icon-2.svg|thumb|110px|'''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1OKDwEWW2s Official Video]''']]
which is on [[2013 World Championships in Athletics – Men's Marathon]]

but there is no Template formatting.  With each of these postings, there will always be the topical component of the appropriate video link.  So I don't know how to insert topical information within a template.

The reason I am thinking it needs to be a template is because of layout issues (at least as seen from my browser) when the video template aligns with other templates, its smaller margin and lack of template size formatting allows other template and infobox formatting to overlap text as in [[2013 World Championships in Athletics – Women's 5000 metres#Records]].  I would think a force width or better yet a hidden forced width with blankspace would prevent that kind of error from happening, but I don't see anywhere in the code where widths are set.  This is more complext Template/Wikiformatting than I understand.  Help needed. [[User:Trackinfo|Trackinfo]] ([[User talk:Trackinfo|talk]]) 10:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

:Why aren't you using {{tl|external media}}?  [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 17:25, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

== FYI ==

[[WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 August 28#Category:Wikipedians by gender and subcats|WP:CfD/2013 August 28 - Category:Wikipedians by gender and subcats]] is something everyone should ''read''.  The decision to participate is all yours and I don't care one way or the other if you do or don't and if you do I don't care if you support or opposed.  I'm only posting this here so that you will be aware and take any action '''you''' deem appropriate.  Thank you. [[User:Technical 13|Technical 13]] ([[User talk:Technical 13|talk]]) 15:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:What does that have to do with this page?  [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 20:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)</span><!--Template:Undated-->

== Help needed with emptying [[:Category:Wikipedians who use Microsoft Windows]] ==

[[:Category:Wikipedians who use Microsoft Windows]] needs to be deleted per [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 August 20#Category:Wikipedians who use Microsoft Windows]]. Can someone please either empty it, or tell me what to do here? [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 20:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:it's explained in the deletion discussion: <blockquote>"the category's existence basically is incidental to transclusions of {{tlu|User:Technical 13/Userboxes/OS}}."</blockquote>
:you probably want to discuss this with [[User:Technical 13]], and see if he can fix this page, such that transcluding it will not create those parasitic categories. peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 23:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
* These categories are up at deletion review as I should have been notified of the deletion nominations as creator of some of the categories in question who's soul purpose is that they are {{Tl|maintenance category}} and more specifically (although I did not know this until just today) {{Tl|Wikipedia category}}. [[User:Technical 13|Technical 13]] ([[User talk:Technical 13|talk]]) 23:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
== Preference choices about displaying math not being shown in user's language ==

Looks like the latest software update has caused the "Math" section (under the "Appearance" tab) in users' [[Special:Preferences|Preferences]] to appear in the local wiki language instead of in the language chosen by the user (for me, that's English). I started seeing this just now in my non-English Wiktionary accounts (I can say it wasn't happening even 24 hours ago), but I see it's also happening in the Russian Wikibooks (an arbitary non-Wiktionary wiki I decided to try). Can someone please verify that this is true for them and then report it at Bugzilla? (I know I could do it myself, but frankly I detest Bugzilla's user interface, and I refuse to use it.) - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] ([[User talk:Dcljr|talk]]) 07:19, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
::This looks like a corruption/problem of the translation files. It will probably get fixed the next time translations are synced. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 09:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
:I noted the new interface at 'More language settings' and changed the display language to German. The math and other settings display in German as expected. I set it back to English and menus are in English as expected. I come back here and the interface is in German, even after a purge and bypass. I had to use the standard language menu to get it back to English. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 09:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
::The "new interface at 'More language settings'" is actually the [[mw:Universal Language Selector]], and is the same as clicking the cogwheel adjacent to "languages" in the left margin, which has been available for [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 113#Tech news: 2013-27|almost two months]]. It got [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 113#Universal Language Selector will be enabled on July 2, 2013|some comment]] at the time, but those were swamped by the flood of comments about [[WP:VE]] which had gone live just the previous day. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 10:26, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
: The problem I posted about has been fixed (or fixed itself). - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] ([[User talk:Dcljr|talk]]) 06:52, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

== Why does the staff keep breaking the wikipedia ==

{{tracked|32013}}
{{tracked|14487}}

Right now a tool I use is broken by MediaWiki Bug 32013.  Why in the world do I need yet another id and logon to report this?  Does the WMF want to discourage more editors with this garbage? [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] ([[User talk:Vegaswikian|talk]]) 20:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:The wikimedia bugzilla ([//bugzilla.wikimedia.org/ bugzilla.wikimedia.org]) is not in-house software. It's mozilla's (15 years and 2 days old) bug-tracking/feature-request-tracking system - see our article on [[Bugzilla]] for details. 
:The integration of SUL with bugzilla is complicated*, but [[bugzilla:14487]] tracks the progress. *(for a variety of reasons, not least of which is that it displays email addresses openly, for which see [[bugzilla:148]]. See [//bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=27001#c20 this comment] in bug:27001 for more problems/links). HTH. –[[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 21:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:: It's a [[Catch-22 (logic)|Catch-22]].  Users been asking for bugzilla SUL integration since before SUL, no reason why it should be the lowest priority.  — [[User:Dispenser|Dispenser]] 16:58, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

:If I'm understanding the Bugzilla entry correctly (which I have added a link to at the top of this section), the thing that changed is [[Internet Explorer]], not MediaWiki. Microsoft added a new feature of dubious quality to Internet Explorer 8, which thinks the actions of the affected toolserver tools are an attempt to exploit a security vulnerability known as a [[cross-site scripting]] attack, often referred to with the acronym "XSS." Apparently various other things found on the Web have been affected by this feature as well, and it doesn't seem to accomplish its goal very well. The blame here lies entirely with Microsoft. Some people in the Bugzilla entry have requested that Mediawiki add new code to work around the flaw in Internet Explorer, but that's not asking for something in Mediawiki to be fixed; it's asking for Mediawiki to take special action to prevent Internet Explorer from breaking the tools in question.
:As a personal recommendation, I would recommend switching from Internet Explorer to a browser that respects your freedom as a user, such as [[Mozilla Firefox]], which can be obtained [https://www.mozilla.org here]. If you're on a system where you're not the administrator, such as a corporate system, that may unfortunately not be an option, although you could consider lobbying those responsible for the computer system to allow the use of other browsers. Frankly, Internet Explorer has a long, long, long history of brokenness and security vulnerabilities, and I consider forcing its usage to be borderline legal negligence, but many people in large bureaucratic organizations are [[sunk costs|terrified of changing anything they have become accustomed to]], no matter how unwise such a choice may be. --[[Special:Contributions/108.38.191.162|108.38.191.162]] ([[User talk:108.38.191.162|talk]]) 21:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::Except that I use Firefox!  That is what they broke.  See my next post below. [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] ([[User talk:Vegaswikian|talk]]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 00:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)</span><!--Template:Undated-->
::: '''Fixed'''.  The problem was Wikimedia's forced HTTPS-only log in and my tools still respecting the HTTP/HTTPS divide.  I've changed my tools to submit HTTPS, but suspect the change 'broke' other things.  I had found the divide useful for testing logged in/monobook/gadgets/HTTPS vs anonymous/vector/HTTP.  — [[User:Dispenser|Dispenser]] 16:58, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

: There's some information on my [[tools:~dispenser/view/Help#XSS_Filter|Help]] page.  Easiest is to add Wikipedia to the Intranet Zone avoiding disabling the XSS filter.  Gear icon (top right) > Internet options > Security tab, click Local Intranet, click Sites, click Advanced, typing in <code>*.wikipedia.org</code> then click Add.  Now click Close, Ok, Ok, and there you go.  — [[User:Dispenser|Dispenser]] 04:39, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks everybody for explaining Bugzilla in this thread while I was asleep in my timezone. Appreciated! :) So if Firefox is in use here and *if* this is really the same problem, then a short (technical) comment on that Bugzilla ticket would be appreciated with version and operating system info. --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 10:39, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

== What now? (Firefox specific) Drop down menus gone from Tab view ==

Modern Skin, Firefox 23.0.1, Windows XP. Visual Editor temporarily disabled. The drop down menus on the tabs at the top are completely gone.
When I pull up a page, the viewing tabs at the top do not populate across the page the way they used to. We used to have "Page" tab, with a drop down menu.  Now it's just "History", and you have to actually click on History to go to another view and see tabs for what used to be in the drop down menu.  Most annoying, when I'm on my  own user page, I no longer see a "User" tab with the drop down selections, such as Userspace, Contributions, etc.  and I don't see any way of quickly accessing those options.  That's what's the most annoying, because it was a handy way to jump to one's own user subpages.  What has happened now? If I open in Opera, the drop down menus are there as they should be.  This is specific to Firefox. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 23:06, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:Those menus are not part of the vanilla software. Did you install a gadget or userscript that is adding them perhaps ? —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 07:25, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::I don't know exactly what this refers to (as TheDJ already wrote, this seems to be some custom software), but if this is functionality which is loaded from an external server via http (an unsecure connection) and you are using Wikipedia via https (a secure connection), then latest Firefox versions block unsecure content. Just a guess, though. --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 10:43, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::{{replyto|Maile66}}. [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User%3AMaile66%2Fmodern.js&diff=570658085&oldid=523588382 Got it]. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 11:25, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::::The DJ, thank you so much for your help.  Works fine now. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 11:32, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::You import [[User:Haza-w/cactions.js]] in [[User:Maile66/modern.js]]. I suggest you instead enable "Add page and user options to drop-down menus on the toolbar" at [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets]]. That will use [[MediaWiki:Gadget-dropdown-menus.js]] instead. It may be more maintained. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 11:52, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::Done. Thank you for your advice. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 11:55, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Malfunction on that one, PrimeHunter. What it did was give me two tabs of "Page".  On the "History" selection in the Drop Down on one Page, it told me no such page existed (including my own personal user page).  The second Page, the "History" took me to the Wikipedia article [[History]].  Must be some kind of conflict going on.  But since I could not access my modern.js to revert The DJ's edit (I could pull up the js page, but it told me no page existed when I tried to edit), I just disabled the Gadget. Other suggestins? [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 12:15, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::::I did say "instead". Don't run the same or similar code in both personal js and a gadget. Maybe the conflict prevented you from editing [[User:Maile66/modern.js]]. If you remove the import there or ask an admin like TheDJ or me to remove it then you can try the gadget. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 14:21, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::Yeah, you did say that, didn't you?  Anyway, thanks for the advice.  I've taken care of it (I think). [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 14:34, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

== Secure site breaks X!'s Edit Counter ==

{{resolved|Wasn't the secure login feature, it was a simple mixed content issue, which is now fixed. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 19:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)}}
* [https://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/pcount/index.php?name=Wbm1058&lang=en&wiki=wikipedia http'''s''': gives a half-baked report], but
* [http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/pcount/index.php?name=Wbm1058&lang=en&wiki=wikipedia http: still works]
— I'm on Google Chrome, Windows 7. – [[User:Wbm1058|Wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 01:11, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
: This has nothing to do with the secure login changes deployed today or talked about above. The tool should be fixed to not include insecure resources when served over HTTPS (protocol-relative URLs make this easier). <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">01:16, 29 August 2013 (UTC)</em>
:What ^d said. Pinging [[User:Cyberpower678]] to fix it :) [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 03:16, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::That's all very well and good but surely such things should be checked with tool maintainers '''before''' deployment.  We rely on volunteer tools - in no small part because, for whatever reason, WMF won't take on many of our most useful tools - and breaking them is a big deal but there seems to be no process in place to check this before deployment.  Relying on volunteer maintainers to spot changes and then make the necessary updates, in their own free time, hardly seems the best way to help maintain the encyclopaedia. [[User:Dpmuk|Dpmuk]] ([[User talk:Dpmuk|talk]]) 04:49, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::Actually, this has nothing to do with the https deployment, this issue has existed in the edit counter for a while now. You're probably only noticing it now because a) you're probably clicking on HTTPS links due to protocol-relative ones, and b) Firefox recently made an update so any non-secure content on a secure page is no longer loaded, whereas it used to give you an option to load the non-secure stuff anyways. See [http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/08/firefox-23-lands-with-a-new-logo-and-mixed-content-blocking/] for some details about that. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 06:43, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::::I don't see it.—[[User:C678|<span style="color:green;font-family:Neuropol">cyberpower</span>]] [[User talk:C678|<sup style="color:olive;font-family:arnprior">Chat</sup>]]<sub style="margin-left:-4.4ex;color:olive;font-family:arnprior">Online</sub> 10:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

::::I'm afraid I don't follow the argument "{{tq|this has nothing to do with the https deployment}}".  As I stated above, I'm using '''Chrome''', not Firefox. I ''definitely'', not probably, noticed this because the link · {{blue|Edit count}} ·  at the bottom of [[Special:Contributions/Wbm1058]] changed from [http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/pcount/index.php?name=Wbm1058&lang=en&wiki=wikipedia this] to [https://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/pcount/index.php?name=Wbm1058&lang=en&wiki=wikipedia this]. Was changing that link not part of https deployment? Can I change that link in my user preferences? What does [[User:Cyberpower678|Cyberpower678]] have to do with that tool? The [http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/pcount/ X!'s Edit Counter home page] says that it is a "Script maintained by the xlabs team" (whoever that is). Can that team fix their script to make it secure? Ideally, that should have been done ''before'' the link was changed, to make the change transparent to end-users. [[User:Wbm1058|Wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 15:03, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::I am the head of the xlabs team.  Quite frankly, the tool was never intended for https, although, I still don't see any differences.  Can you provide a screenshot.<small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Cyberpower678|Cyberpower678]] ([[User talk:Cyberpower678|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Cyberpower678|contribs]]) 15:32, 29 August 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:::::Oh I see:
:::::* [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 112#Toolserver issues]]
:::::* [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 113#X!'s Edit Counter]] – {{tq|To address the issue of the tool's 'owner', I maintain that I inherited the and do not own them and I've taken part in the process, led by Cyberpower, to migrate these tools to labs.  I've joined a team, of sorts, that Cyber has termed xlabs and so as these tools move to labs, I am abdicating any sort of psuedo ownership I gained while hosting open source tools that I didn't even design and barely maintained.  I'm definitely okay with any changes to the tools as long as it's a team decision and I've address that with Cyber already.--v/r - [[User:TParis|T]][[User_talk:TParis|P]] 02:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)}}
:::::—it would be nice if I didn't have to dig to find this information about who is maintaining this high-visibility tool. – [[User:Wbm1058|Wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 15:42, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
{{outdent}}{{ping|Cyberpower678}} I was about to try making a screen shot, but now the report is ''really'' messed up. A recent attempt to fix something? Now I get this:
:Warning: mysql_close() expects parameter 1 to be resource, boolean given in /data/project/xtools/public_html/counter_commons/Database.php on line 71
—[[User:Wbm1058|Wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 16:03, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::It was kind of implied at who maintains it.  I'll make it more obvious.  Nothing has been changed, if you ask me, labs broke down again.  Something is spidering the servers.—[[User:C678|<span style="color:green;font-family:Neuropol">cyberpower</span>]] [[User talk:C678|<sup style="color:olive;font-family:arnprior">Chat</sup>]]<sub style="margin-left:-4.4ex;color:olive;font-family:arnprior">Online</sub> 16:21, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::Back tracking a bit, I also don't agree with the "this has nothing to do with https deployment".  Yes that may not be what directly broke it but clearly a lot (most?) users were previously using http and are now using https and so the link breaks for them.  Thus as far as the users are concerned it is https deployment that broke it.  Most users won't care about the technical reasons for the break only that before deployment it worked, after it didn't.  Hence this should still have been checked before deployment. [[User:Dpmuk|Dpmuk]] ([[User talk:Dpmuk|talk]]) 16:52, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
{{ping|Cyberpower678}} Hey, I see now that "Wbm1058&lang=en&wiki=wikipedia does not exist." Apparently someone took down my data to protect me from myself ;) Maybe we should debug this in a less visible place? My bot's reports still work, but maybe it's not safe to upload screen shots? [[User:Wbm1058|Wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 16:22, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:Debugging should be public so others can report what they see.—[[User:C678|<span style="color:green;font-family:Neuropol">cyberpower</span>]] [[User talk:C678|<sup style="color:olive;font-family:arnprior">Chat</sup>]]<sub style="margin-left:-4.4ex;color:olive;font-family:arnprior">Online</sub> 16:23, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::{{fixed}} – Well, the problem seems to be fixed now. If you had anything to do with that, I thank you very much. The mysql_close/does not exist problem I reported above wasn't really a problem—someone just vandalized the link I posted. [[User:Wbm1058|Wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 17:30, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
*However, per [[wikitech:Nova Resource Talk:Xtools#Edit counter seems to be broken on Commons]] there still seems to be a problem with the tool over on Commons. – [[User:Wbm1058|Wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 18:08, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
*:Fixed the https problem.  I have made a mass change tool wise to accomodate https.  It should work now.  Commons still needs new namespaces.—[[User:C678|<span style="color:green;font-family:Neuropol">cyberpower</span>]] [[User talk:C678|<sup style="color:red;font-family:arnprior">Chat</sup>]]<sub style="margin-left:-4.4ex;color:red;font-family:arnprior">Offline</sub> 18:54, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

== Questions for the next Executive Director ==

[[Meta:Executive_Director_Transition_Team/Call_for_Questions|Open call for questions]].  Cheers, [[User:Ocaasi|Ocaasi]]<sup> [[User talk:Ocaasi|t ]]&#124;[[Special:Contributions/Ocaasi| c]]</sup> 12:39, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

== RfC: Are the [[:Category:Wikipedians]] and its subcategories appropriate for Wikipedia ==

There is an ongoing RfC going on at [[:Category talk:Wikipedians#RfC: Is this category and current subcategories appropriate for Wikipedia]] that readers of this Village pump may be interested it. [[User:Technical 13|Technical 13]] ([[User talk:Technical 13|talk]]) 12:45, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

== Hiding ProcseeBot in block log ==

{{tracked|19322}}
Could there be a way to hide bots from view in the block log? This has been mentioned once before by [[User:Jasper Deng]], but nobody ever replied. Thanks, [[User:Insulam Simia|Insulam Simia]] ([[User talk:Insulam Simia|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Insulam Simia|contribs]]) 15:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:[[bugzilla:19322]] [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 16:43, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:I agree 100%! I would like to browse the blocks too, but ProcseeBot makes it very annoying. Also, this problem doesn't exist only on en.wiki. [[User:Ginsuloft|Ginsuloft]] ([[User talk:Ginsuloft|talk]]) 16:51, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::Yep: [[:fi:Toiminnot:Loki/block]]. --[[User:Stryn|Stryn]] ([[User talk:Stryn|talk]]) 19:23, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

== Sandbox still attached to last article ==

Could I please get [[Palmetto Education Association]] decoupled from my sandbox.  I want to start drafting a new article, and when I make edits in my sandbox they also edit the article.  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Eirefrance|Eirefrance]] ([[User talk:Eirefrance|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eirefrance|contribs]]) 18:23, 29 August 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:{{done}} [[User:Ginsuloft|Ginsuloft]] ([[User talk:Ginsuloft|talk]]) 18:41, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::I have blanked it to remove all but the sandbox template. All of that text was in the version moved to the article space so leaving it in the sandbox is just confusing.--[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 19:03, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

== Broken scripts on pages whose names begin with a period ==

On articles like [[.hack]], [[.NET Framework]], [[.htaccess]], and [[.com]], the Vector sidebar's sections ''sometimes'' fail to be collapsible, and [[User:Js/6tabs-vector]] always fails to work (actually, I am using [[User:SoledadKabocha/6tabs-vector|a version modified to handle the VisualEditor tab]], but switching back to the official version makes no difference). My vector.js itself is loading fine, as demonstrated by [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:SoledadKabocha/vector.js&diff=570715952&oldid=566872464 making it add a dummy link to the toolbox].

When viewing the offending pages, Firefox's Error Console shows a message like

Error: mw.Title: Could not parse title ".htaccess"

<nowiki>https://bits.wikimedia.org/en.wikipedia.org/load.php?debug=false&lang=en&modules=ext.centralNotice.bannerController%7Cext.uls.i18n%2Cime%2Cinit%2Cinterface%2Clanguagenames%2Cpreferences%2Cwebfonts%7Cext.uls.webfonts.repository%7Cext.visualEditor.viewPageTarget.init%7Cext.wikimediaShopLink.core%7Cjquery.client%2Ccookie%2CdelayedBind%2Ci18n%2CjStorage%2Cjson%2CmwExtension%2Ctipsy%2Culs%2Cwebfonts%7Cjquery.uls.data%2Cgrid%7Cmediawiki.Title%2CUri%2Capi%2Cnotify%2Cuser%2Cutil%7Cmediawiki.legacy.ajax%2Cwikibits%7Cmediawiki.libs.pluralruleparser%7Cmediawiki.page.startup%7Cskins.vector.js%7Cwikibase.client.init&skin=vector&version=20130829T195454Z&*</nowiki>

Line: 262

Discussion elsewhere suggests that this is related to the secure login feature, but I'm not sure how that applies to me: I had already been using the secure server (enforced by HTTPS Everywhere), I'm not getting any mixed-content warnings, and other pages don't have the problem. What should be done about this? --[[User:SoledadKabocha|SoledadKabocha]] ([[User talk:SoledadKabocha|talk]]) 20:10, 29 August 2013 (UTC) (+ 20:27, 29 August 2013 (UTC))

: So, as best I can tell this has nothing to do with HTTPS. I spoke with Roan, and he said it's known and Krinkle's working on a fix. <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">22:13, 29 August 2013 (UTC)</em>
: {{edit conflict}} This isn't related to secure login. There's a bug in mw.Title (a JavaScript library in MediaWiki core) causing it to believe that all page names starting with a dot are invalid. So when you're on a page like that and some piece of JavaScript tries to get information about the page (which VisualEditor does, because it needs to figure out if the page is in the right namespace and what not), mw.Title blows up in its face. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] ([[User talk:Catrope|talk]]) 22:16, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

== Watchlist issues? ==

This may be a temporary problem, but I can't watchlist or de-watchlist any page right now. Clicking on the star, either an error message box appears (saying an error occurred when trying to change the watchlist settings) or the star just spins forever and nothing happens. I use the regular Wikipedia server (i.e. the non-secure one). I tried clearing the browser cache, but that didn't help. [[User:Heymid|<span style="color:green;">Hey</span>]][[User talk:Heymid|<span style="color:red;">'''''mid'''''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contribs]]) 21:16, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:Somethings happened. When pressing the enable feedback button it comes up saying an unknown error has occurred and also my twinkle rollback links have disappeared as well.[[User:Blethering Scot|<span style="color:Maroon;">Blethering</span>]] [[User talk:Blethering Scot|<span style="color:Green;">Scot</span>]] 21:20, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
: Issue known and being investigated on #wikimedia-operations on Freenode as we speak. [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 21:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:: Issue has been fixed – thanks for acting quickly! :) [[User:Heymid|<span style="color:green;">Hey</span>]][[User talk:Heymid|<span style="color:red;">'''''mid'''''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Heymid|contribs]]) 21:44, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
== https change breaks Citation Expander gadget? ==

The https change, or something else, appears to have broken the Citation Expander gadget, at least for me, at least on Firefox for Mac. I have unchecked the https setting, logged out, logged back in, quit Firefox and started it again, but I have still been unable to make the Citation Expander gadget work. I have reported [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Citation_bot#Citation_bot_reports_blank_page_.28erroneously.2C_on_every_cite_doi_template.2C_every_time.29 this bug]. 

Is it working/broken for anyone else? Is there something I can do to fix it for myself? – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 05:10, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:Where can I find the Citation Expander gadget? I'd love to look at its code. (Very wild guess, I might be completely wrong: Latest Firefox blocks "unsecure" (http) content on "secure" (https) pages.) --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 10:45, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

::[[Special:Gadgets]] links to [[MediaWiki:Gadget-citations.js]]. [[User:Citation bot]] links to [http://code.google.com/p/citation-bot/ Source code repository]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 11:14, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

The bot's maintainer has set the bot's account to not use SSL for now, as a workaround. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 13:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
{{resolved}}

== On little viewed articles ==

Hello, I am an active wiki editor on Ancient Egypt subjects and work a lot on articles that typically do not garner much views, for example on obscur pharaohs of the first and second intermediate periods (typical example [[Mersekhemre Ined]] or [[Intef I]]). Being curious about the number of views such articles get and how this depends on the number of links to these articles, I regularly use the Page View Statistics tool to access the number of views. I noticed that for very rarely visited articles, even orphan or near orphan articles (e.g. see [[Helwan retouch]] and its [http://stats.grok.se/en/latest90/Helwan%20retouch page view stats]), the number of daily visits always fluctuates around at least 2-3 a day. Now this is rather striking: are there really 2-3 people a day researching the Helwan retouch ??

Instead, I believe that much of these views are actually bots accessing the page (maybe from google or other search engines, or from wikipedia itself). Thus, I can summarize my question as follows: for articles with very little views, can we distinguish bot views from real humans accessing the article? Is it possible to estimate the real traffic that these articles garner?

I tried to find studies on articles with very few visits but did not find any (so many pages are devoted to the most visited wikipedia articles and so little is devoted to the numerous articles with very few visits). In particular, this "bot view noise" obscurs the real impact of these articles and does not help increase their visibility (how awesome would it be to be able to distinguish which wiki-link led a reader to a given article). Because of this, in the end, I can't even say if there is at least one human per month interested in e.g. [[Pepi III]] or [[Senusret IV]]...[[User:Iry-Hor| Iry-Hor]] ([[User talk:Iry-Hor|talk]]) 09:06, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
*I always assumed this was people who clicked the "random article" link... --[[User:Randykitty|Randykitty]] ([[User talk:Randykitty|talk]]) 13:00, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
::Well with about 4 millions articles on wikipedia, assuming the prob distr of getting one is uniform, 3 visits a day mean the button was clicked around 12 millions time a day. Now the wiki main page has around 10 million visits a day so it would mean that nearly every person coming to the main page click the random article button. Furthermore, this should hold for all article with 2 -3 visits a day. So just Helwan retouch plus Pepi III require every person to click the button a couple of times a day. Including the many other articles with 2 - 3 visits mean everybody must be nevrotically clicking the random article button tens od thousands of times a day...[[User:Iry-Hor| Iry-Hor]] ([[User talk:Iry-Hor|talk]]) 13:38, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:::Your initial 12 million clicks is about right, but there's no reason, once you've assumed a uniform distribution, that getting 2-3 hits on 2 articles will require twice as many clicks as getting 2-3 hits on 1 article.   Also, anyone clicking "random article" is probably going to click it more than once, so maybe a million people clicking 12 times a day is a little more realistic.  Probably still too high to be the full explaination though (is it possible to get the usage stats for the random article button)? [[User:MChesterMC|MChesterMC]] ([[User talk:MChesterMC|talk]]) 15:18, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
::::[http://stats.grok.se/en/latest90/special:random Apparently we can!] It shows about 2 million hits a day to [[special:random]], so that only accounts for about half a hit per day per article. (though looking back through the history, it has previously been much higher. People ver clearly bored in [http://stats.grok.se/en/201010/special:random October 2010]) [[User:MChesterMC|MChesterMC]] ([[User talk:MChesterMC|talk]]) 15:30, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::Yes you are right my mathematical argument was botched for several articles. So what's the mean number of visits received by an article if people use the random button 2 million times a day ? It seems to me that since there are 4 millions articles on wikipedia and since, by assumption, all are equally likely, then each article receives on average 1/2 a visit a day (or a visit every two days). That's indeed pretty far from the 3.37 visits a day such a small, near orphan, article as the [[Helwan retouch]] gets on average (soon this is going to go up with my always going to Helwan retouch to study little viewed articles...). If we accept that most of these visits are from bots, then we have the additional problem that bots visit a page more or less often depending on the number of links to it. Thus both Senusret IV (with 9.7 visits a day) and Helwan retouch (3.37) might get all their visits from bots, with the apparent difference in frequentation only due to more links to Senusret IV than Helwan retouch. This is terrible: in spite of the fact that 9.7 is arguably more than 3.37, we can't even say that one article gets more real people than the other !! Furthermore, what's the minimum number of human visits required for such visit to dominate over the bot noise ? (this question is really hard considering that the more visited an article is, the more likely it is to have many links to it and thus the more bot visits it might receive)[[User:Iry-Hor| Iry-Hor]] ([[User talk:Iry-Hor|talk]]) 16:05, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
*There's a [http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-April/059905.html rough estimate] for bot traffic (from mid-2012) as 10-15%, half of which are from google. However, it's clear that this 10-15% is probably disproportionately higher on low-traffic pages and a much smaller proportion for very high-traffic pages. Getting "non-bot" figures for individual pages has definitely been discussed in the past, but we'd have to screen the hits before recording them, and of course anything that involves looking at individual hits, even in an automated fashion, starts opening up the potential for privacy complications. [[User:west.andrew.g]] has done quite a bit of work on the traffic stats and might be able to give some more experienced advice. [[User:Andrew Gray|Andrew Gray]] ([[User talk:Andrew Gray|talk]]) 10:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

== HTTPS ==

Hi. I'm having some trouble using Wikipedia through HTTPS. Whenever I visit a new page, I get the following message: "WikiPage: Couldn't parse page name from url 'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)'". I can still view & edit the site, but this dialogue box pops up for every page, and I need to close it before I can continue. Does anyone know why this happens and how I can fix it?Thanks, [[User:ItsZippy|ItsZippy]] <sup>([[User Talk:ItsZippy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ItsZippy|contributions]])</sup> 10:56, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
: It's probably caused by the [[User:Quarl/wikipage.js]] script in [[User:ItsZippy/vector.js|your vector.js]]. Issues with it were already mentioned above and {{ping|^demon}} claimed to have fixed them, though, so I guess this script is even more broken than it seemed. [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 11:39, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

:: Same issue here. Only by burning my cache, all cookies, and history to the beginning of time was I able to get Chrome not to go back to https. '''[[User:RJC|<span style="background:#CEFFCE;color:#0000C6;font-family:Garamond">RJC</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:RJC|<span style="color:#0000C6">Talk</span>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/RJC|<span style="color:#0000C6">Contribs</span>]]</sub> 12:04, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

::Hmm, since this morning, I've not had so many issues - perhaps this is fixed. I'll keep an eye out. [[User:ItsZippy|ItsZippy]] <sup>([[User Talk:ItsZippy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ItsZippy|contributions]])</sup> 16:03, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

== Improved diff has vanished ==

Recently the Green Delta to link to the improved diff display has vanished from my diff pages.  When searching for instructions about "Improved diff" to see if there was an error in my setup, I found that there apparently aren't any instructions in the Wikipediea: or Help: pages.  Two questions:
:Is there any explanation as to why the improved diff link has recently vanished?
:Why isn't there documentation for the improved diff somewhere on Wikipedia?
::[[User:SteveMcCluskey|SteveMcCluskey]] ([[User talk:SteveMcCluskey|talk]]) 15:54, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:::what you call "improved diff", if i understand correctly, is the "wikEd diff" gadget. you want to make sure this gadget is actually selected in your preferences (i think that if you use "wikEd", it automatically includes wikEd diff, but at least one of these two must be selected for wikEd diff to work for you). if you have one of those two active, and you still do not see the "improved diff button", i think the place to seek help is either [[User:Cacycle/wikEdDiff]], or the associated talk page (i just checked, and it *does* work for me. i do not use wikEd, but i *do* use wikEd diff). peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 16:47, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

:What is your skin and browser? I see you import wikEdDiff in both [[User:SteveMcCluskey/monobook.js]] and [[User:SteveMcCluskey/vector.js]]. The latter says http and not https. You can try changing that if you use Vector but I suggest you remove both versions and instead enable wikEdDiff at [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets]]. That method is more likely to be stable. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 20:12, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

::Thanks for the advice; following PrimeHunter's recommendation I was able to get the WikEdDiff running by using the preference page (once I knew where to look and what I was looking for).

::May I suggest that someone who knows something about WikEdDiff add a discussion about its properties and how to set it up at [[Help:Diff]].  Both newbies and old timers could benefit from such documentation.  I'm an editor who'd used it for such a long time that I totally forgot how I installed it.  [[User:SteveMcCluskey|SteveMcCluskey]] ([[User talk:SteveMcCluskey|talk]]) 19:53, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

:::I have added a see also link [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Help:Diff&diff=570990162&oldid=567368971] to [[User:Cacycle/wikEdDiff]], and described there how to install it as a gadget.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:Cacycle/wikEdDiff&diff=570989493&oldid=565768466] [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 20:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

== EasyBlock ==

{{resolved}}
Anyone who uses the [[WP:ESB|EasyBlock]] script having issues? Mine doesn't seem to be working, though a computer reboot or cache clear I'm thinking may do the trick (if it's just me). Or could it be the https update that is doing it? – [[User:Connormah|Connormah]] ([[User talk:Connormah|talk]]) 07:20, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
:Hm, same here. <samp>[01:13:05.478] TypeError: (intermediate value).block is undefined @ https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:Animum/easyblock.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript:347</samp> I'm investigating... [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 08:13, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
:Ok [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User%3AAnimum%2Feasyblock.js&diff=570918417&oldid=514441378 fixed]. Has nothing to do with the HTTPS upgrade. &gettoken=1 was removed from the API. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 08:23, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks so much! – [[User:Connormah|Connormah]] ([[User talk:Connormah|talk]]) 15:35, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

== Code Editor doesn't work with zoomed text — accessibility problem ==

{{tracked|53634}}
The new Code Editor is badly broken. I use Firefox with text zoomed to +225%, witch makes the Code Editor utterly unusable, yet there is no obvious way to turn it off. I also often use an external editor (via [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/its-all-text/?src=ss It's All Text]), but the CE makes even that unworkable by randomly moving its icon around.

Between this and VE and the upcoming Flow crapfest, I've had enough. WMF can go fuck itself for all I care. I'm out if here. (At least until things shape up, start functioning properly and let ''me'' choose the way I edit.) —<span style="font-family: serif">'''''[[User:Wasell|<span style="color: #0a0">Wasell</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Wasell|(<span style="color: #e66">T</span>)]]</sup>'''''</span> 07:30, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
:Please read [[m:CodeEditor]] which has clear instructions on how to disable it. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 08:12, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

== New Page Review - No Curation Bar ==

Hi,,

I have been directed to here after asking about this on live chat. The things they said to do which did not result in a fix are as follows:

Look on the side for the small minimised tab
Look under the toolbox for curate this page
I have also tried with another browser.

Why is there no curator bar for me?

Thanks :)
[[User:MrBauer24|MrBauer24]] ([[User talk:MrBauer24|talk]]) 15:12, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

:Possibly silly question - have you tried going directly to [[Special:NewPagesFeed]] and following one of the links from there? The page curation toolbox sometimes needs "triggered" by that page. [[User:Andrew Gray|Andrew Gray]] ([[User talk:Andrew Gray|talk]]) 16:10, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

:Page curation is only available to [[WP:AUTOC|autoconfirmed]] users. Your account will be autoconfirmed three days from now. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 16:19, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

== URL converter script not working ==

The url converter script [[user:js/urldecoder.js]] is no longer working. It works if I take the "s" out of the "https" at the start of the url. The author has not edited since May 2012, so I'm not sure posting on his talk page will be of any use. Thanks, -- [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 18:22, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
:{{replyto|Diannaa}} I have [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User%3AJs%2Furldecoder.js&diff=570997953&oldid=508786928 fixed] the script I think. It might be required to [[WP:BYPASS|clear your browser cache]]. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 22:08, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
::{{replyto|TheDJ}} The little button [[:File:Link go.png]] is no longer appearing on my toolbar so I have no way to test the script. :/ -- [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 22:38, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
:::{{replyto|Diannaa}} Sorry about, I missed one problem/I can't count. If you could please try again ? —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 22:56, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
::::{{replyto|TheDJ}} Yay, it is working again! Thank you very much. -- [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 23:51, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
== Mobile: 'Title' coordinates not showing ==

Where we have a {{tl|Coord}} template in an article with {{para|display|title}}, the coordinates, usually seen at the top of the desktop view, are not visible in our mobile view. (This is also true of the title coordinates when {{para|display|inline,title}} is applied, but this is less of an issue as the coordinates are displayed elsewhere on the page). For example, compare the desktop view of [[Casa Milà]] with [//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa_Mil%C3%A0 its mobile view]. How can we fix this? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 12:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
:I suggest first thinking of a place where such coordinates should end up. Then file a ticket in bugzilla asking for the devs to take it into account. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 13:06, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
::I note that in the experimental mode of the mobile website, you get a globe, that takes you to Special:NearBy on those pages. Ideally, it would also have a "show on map" entry in there, showing the position of these elements (and the title element of course) in an OSM layer I think. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 13:30, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
:::The coordinates span is specifically striped from the mobile view to simplify the interface. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] ([[User talk:Kaldari|talk]]) 17:44, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

:::{{conflict}}this is an enwiki specifci thing, not something for bugzilla and "the devs".
:::the issue stems from the fact that we use a class (named, aptly, "coordinates") that's defined in the site's css (i.e., [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]). this CSS is not loaded for mobile view (mobile view uses [[MediaWiki:Mobile.css]]), where this class is not defined, so it does not do it's thing (specifically, this class has the "position absolute" that allows us to push it to its place). <small>(added after collision)</small> this may be intentional, if i understood correctly what Kaldari indicates. peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 17:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
::::Unlike the problem described at [[#'Listen' template not rendering in mobile view]] above, the HTML for coordinates with {{para|display|title}} does appear in the page source, at the point where they would appear if the {{tlx|coord}} had been given {{para|display|inline}}.<syntaxhighlight lang=html5><p>
 <span id="coordinates">Coordinates:
  <span class="geo-nondefault">51°44′04″N 1°14′54″W</span> /
  <span class="geo-default">51.7344°N 1.2482°W</span>
 </span>
</p></syntaxhighlight> - the <code>href=</code> and <code>title=</code> attributes of the {{tag|a|o}} {{tag|span|o}} tags have been condensed for clarity. So, it's fixable in CSS for this site, without involving the devs --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 18:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::I've removed the spans, etc. that have no bearing on the issue, so we would need to define one id <code>coordinates</code> and two classes <code>geo-nondefault</code> and <code>geo-default</code> --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 19:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::It is defined: <code>.geo-nondefault, .geo-multi-punct { display: none; }</code> Apparently, <code>.mobile #coordinates</code> is hidden by MobileFrontend intentionally (with the remark "/* TODO: style for mobile */"). Now we have to ask, do we want it unhidden, and so, where do we put it? <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 19:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::The <code>geo-nondefault</code> class is the least important of the three identifiers that I gave above... it's ''supposed'' to be <code>display:none;</code> because {{tlx|coord}} outputs both the decimal and dms forms; the one that is intended to be visible is given <code>class="geo-default"</code> and the other gets <code>class="geo-nondefault"</code> which hides them. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 19:44, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::::the essence of what i wrote above was more-or-less true, but not the details: it's not the "coordinates" class, but rather the "coordinates" id, and it's not in [[MediaWiki:Common.css]], but rather in [[MediaWiki:Vector.css]] and [[MediaWiki:Monobook.css]] (and i guess their ilk also). the essence is still true, though: it's enwiki specific, and the place to handle it is the local [[Mediawiki:Mobile.css]]. peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 20:42, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::::MobileFrontend still hides <code>#coordinates</code>, which contains <code>.geo-default</code>. Unhiding it shows coords at the top of mobile view, but is dependend on template placement. All we need to do is find a good spot for it using absolute positioning, and unhide it in Mobile.css. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 10:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
:I added a globe to the page actions toolbar. Does that make people happy ? —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 13:26, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
::The globe looks nice, but the actual coordinates are not visible, and the page it links to is very mobile-unfriendly. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 13:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
:::There is only so much I can do :D —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 14:36, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
:Thank you. It's a good interim measure (and probably worth keeping if we can get a mobile-friendly version of the GeoTemplate page; linking to mobile-friendly services), but I would want to be able to see the coordinates, copy them and paste them into my GPS app, or whatever. News of your fallibility is somewhat of a disappointment :-( <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 15:27, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
::In the long term this simply needs work flow design. Like I said, integrate with the Special:Nearby feature or something and push an overlay OSM map on the page. I'm quite sure that this is being worked on by the mobile team, but they are taking the long term view on this, while my change is more of a short term interim fix. BTW. If anyone knows of a mobile (touch) friendly FOSS slippy map without traffic limitations, that we can pass the coordinates to, then i'm in favor of adding that, but I don't know any online service like that. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 15:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy]], [[User:TheDJ|TheDJ]], et al., RE: '' It's a good interim measure (and probably worth keeping if we can get a mobile-friendly version of the GeoTemplate page; linking to mobile-friendly services)'' &ndash; Showing a big button at the top of articles (next to contributory buttons that are completely unrelated) but ''not'' taking a user to a mobile-friendly view of the page is a confusing and broken user experience; it's not a good interim solution at all. Please remember that you're not just showing this feature to experienced Wikipedians who know what the related page is for; you're showing this to millions of curious readers and taking them to a strange, broken-looking desktop-only page. That's precisely why the mobile team is working on surfacing this information in a mobile-friendly way in the experimental version of the site ''first,'' before exposing the functionality globally to all users. This is a huge change to the mobile UI, one that requires much wider discussion. [[User:Maryana (WMF)|Maryana (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Maryana (WMF)|talk]]) 00:17, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::{{replyto|Maryana (WMF)}} I think the usage of the phrase 'wider discussion' is interesting. As an en.wp user I can't really say that the mobile team has been ''open'' to discussion the past months. As a developer, I know where to go, but I'm quite sure that the community is getting a high level of 'mobile team does whatever they want'-vibe. There is nothing wrong with that, actually, I personally think it's going pretty fine and getting us good results (en.wp noise is annoying, filtering it out lets people focus and work). But discussion is only possible with multiple partners, so don't come knocking on the door with that verbiage if people sometimes bypass the team. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 06:52, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::{{replyto|Maryana (WMF)}} Where on en.WP does this discussion tale place? Why do you not simply show the coordinates as text (you're currently ''hiding article content'': with what remit?) and possibly a link to a single, mobile-friendly map source, perhaps OSM, or the native map app for the device's OS?? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 11:31, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::I think you are underestimating the problems here Andy.
::::::# The coordinates element is something developed by the Wikipedia communities. And they do 'ugly' things, which are easily breakable depending on the skin. The community has known this for years, so it's our fault for doing hackish stuff in the first place.
::::::# 'show the content'. Question is where ? display=title often doesn't have a proper position. Do you have a suggestion ?
::::::# 'mobile friendly' map source. Again, if you know one, you are welcome to propose it.
::::::# 'native map' unfortunately there is no universal widely supported link format that works to launch a map app. [[Geo URI]] is getting there, but it's far from supported. 
::::::I'm really hoping someone invests the time to get a proper OSM tile server for wikimedia configured, but I think finishing all that work will still require a lot of time and it's blocking many of the Geo related improvements that various folks have been eyeing. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 12:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::{{ping|TheDJ}} OSM works fine on my mobile ; and others I've seen. (some colleagues may not be ware that it recently had an upgraded interface). We could link to that, or to a mobile version of GeoTempate which has a link to it, and a geoURI and the "nearby" page. As for the position; why not at the top; or at the bottom; or create a section called "Coordinates"? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 20:45, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::P.S. Google Maps also renders well on mobile. On my Android device, a link to Google Maps is intercepted and I'm offered a choice of the website ("Internet") or the native app ("Maps"). <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 20:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::{{ping|TheDJ}} Did you miss this? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 17:24, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::::No i didn't miss it, I just haven't had the time to spend on it, with all the mess reported below. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 19:37, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:Jon has hidden the button again, because the mobile team thinks we are confusing 'normal users'. Which I agree with actually.  —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 06:42, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::I've now made a non-linked textual element at the top right of the first section (visible in beta mode). In alpha/experimental/dragons mode I restored the button that I added before. I intend to make the beta version the default version soon. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 13:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
FYI there are now two globes in the mobile alpha with slightly different outcomes when you click on them (albeit the alpha one is broken as a patch didn't get merged in time). We should merge these concepts as that is very confusing! I'd suggest we discuss this on mobile-l mailing list as many developers don't follow Village pump? I think the beta solution TheDJ has created is much less prominent as it should be and preferable. My only real concern with the beta (and desktop in general) is not everyone understands what longitude and latitude coordinates are. They should at least be clickable to some mobile optimised map or some kind of explanation before we push that to stable. [[User:Jdlrobson|Jdlrobson]] ([[User talk:Jdlrobson|talk]]) 14:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

== How to space down 1/2 line ==

Can I ask a technical question here? If so here's my Q: I'm currently using <nowiki>{{break|1}}</nowiki> in template code to space down a line. But it is spacing down more than I want. And not using <nowiki>{{break|1}}</nowiki> doesn't position where I want either. So it seems something inbetween might be right. So is there any way to space-down half a line? Thanks. [[User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso|talk]]) 00:47, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:Where do you wish to do this? --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 08:10, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks for your Q. I'm spitting out the following sequence when <nowiki>{{algebraic notation|pos=toc}}</nowiki> is specified: 

:::<nowiki>{{TOC left}}</nowiki> <br />
:::<nowiki>{{break|1}}</nowiki> <br />
:::<nowiki>{{algebraic notation|pos=left}}</nowiki> <br /> 
:::<nowiki>{{clearleft}}</nowiki> <br />

::You can see an example of the result [[Giuoco Piano|here]]. (And there are hundreds more article applications same as that one.) A project member feels the result would look a lot less annoying if somehow the top of the side box (the "algebraic notation" box) could be made flush with the top of the TOC. (<nowiki>{{break|1}}</nowiki> puts it a bit lower than flush; removing <nowiki>{{break|1}}</nowiki> from the sequence puts it a bit higher than flush.) I know it's picky but we like to please if possible with your help! Thank you, [[User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso|talk]]) 09:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:::Oh, it's ''inside'' {{tlx|Algebraic notation}}. But why not just leave out the {{tlx|break|1}} from that template? --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 13:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::::Because as mentioned, removing <nowiki>{{break|1}}</nowiki> from the sequence puts it a bit higher than flush. (I kept the break in the sequence because lower than flush looks better than higher than flush. But flush was my first choice and am wondering how to achieve that. Thus this thread.) [[User:Ihardlythinkso/sandbox2|Here]]'s a simulated example showing result when <nowiki>{{break|1}}</nowiki> is removed from the sequence. (Gulp! -- Comparing that with [[Giuoco Piano|this]], it looks like even half-spacing down won't make the side box flush -- the amount lower than flush is greater than the amount higher than flush.) [[User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso|talk]]) 05:34, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::Just left clear the whole disclaimer box, or float it to the right or whatever. What you want doesn't even work in IE7 I think, and neither on small width devices, so why bother. Also, if we export it or do other things with the content then positioning information like this has a large chance of getting lost. On that note, if you need algebraic notation in the lede and therefore this disclaimer so close to the first paragraph, then the article has lost me as a reader. It might be wise to consider the accessibility of what you are writing. The phrase "The Giuoco Piano is the oldest recorded opening" seems like much more relevant information for the lede then half of what is in there currently and the links for alternative openings are much more useful to me than how they are noted down. Good luck. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 07:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::I can get it to within 1px of the correct vertical positioning in Firefox ({{diff|User:Ihardlythinkso/sandbox2|prev|570714608|see here}}), but it almost certainly varies between browsers. Part of the trouble is that the different boxes use differing structures - {{tag|table|o}} or {{tag|div|o}}; and differing box-model methods for relative positioning - margin or padding; and different measurement units (px or em); then the border has to be taken into account. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 19:46, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks for your efforts and the information, {{u|Redrose64}}. (I couldn't know without asking, if there was a simple way to match tops, or not. Thanks again for taking on my Q, and explaining the problems to me.) Sincere, [[User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso|talk]]) 01:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

== Internal link not working ==

I had a very weird experience on page [[Motorik]]. There is a link to play a MIDI file from Commons that led to file upload wizard when I first opened the page. I thought about removing it since it leads to a dead file, but checked the history and saw it was added 3 days ago. I tried to go to the file directly ([[File:Motorik rhythm.mid]]), but it didn't appear in the suggestions in the search bar. I went to Commons then and found it. So I edited the original page and clicked Show preview. Link was still dead. I then copy-pasted the title from the Commons page (Motorik rhythm.mid) into the corresponding template on the [[Motorik]] page. Clicked Show preview and, hey presto, it works! I clicked Show changes and Wiki didn't find any differences, so I clicked Save, checked the history and my edit didn't appear. The link was now working, however, and it still is now (at least for me). Why in the world could this happen?! [[Special:Contributions/93.139.59.230|93.139.59.230]] ([[User talk:93.139.59.230|talk]]) 01:18, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:The servers that run Wikipedia use [[Cache (computing)|caches]] to serve pages faster. Sometimes the caches contain out-of-date information, e.g. showing a red link when the linked file actually exists. Your edit was a ''null edit'' (one that does not make a change). A null edit does not show in the history, but it does purge the caches, correcting the problem you saw. See [[Wikipedia:Purge]] for more information. –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 19:41, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

== Monthly and yearly pageview stats ==

Given the newly created [[Wikipedia:Million Award]], how can we request that the page view stat tool present monthly and yearly pageview totals? It will save everyone lots of work totalling month by month data.--[[User:TonyTheTiger|TonyTheTiger]] <small>([[User talk:TonyTheTiger|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/TonyTheTiger|C]] / [[WP:FOUR]] / [[WP:CHICAGO]] / [[WP:WAWARD]])</small> 01:59, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:If we can't augment the tool to present yearly totals of monthly data, can we add a button for last 365 days.--[[User:TonyTheTiger|TonyTheTiger]] <small>([[User talk:TonyTheTiger|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/TonyTheTiger|C]] / [[WP:FOUR]] / [[WP:CHICAGO]] / [[WP:WAWARD]])</small> 14:15, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

== Error report in RFA ==

When I click "Report" at [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship]] I get the following error:
:get('//en.wikipedia....', Array) #1 /data/project/xtools/Peachy/Init.php(153): Peachy::wikiChecks('//en.wikipedia....') #2 /data/project/xtools/public_html/rfa/index.php(36): Peachy::newWiki(NULL, NULL, NULL, '//en.wikipedia....') #3 {main} thrown in /data/project/xtools/Peachy/HTTP.php on line 175
Is this the right place to report this error? (I don’t have a bugzilla account). Thanks in advance, X[[User:Ottawahitech|Ottawahitech]] ([[User talk:Ottawahitech|talk]]) 03:26, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:Full error from the html view-source:
{{collapse top}}
<pre><!--Loading Peachy (version 2.0 (alpha 5))...
Fatal error: Uncaught exception 'CURLError' with message 'cURL Error (3): <url> malformed' in /data/project/xtools/Peachy/HTTP.php:175
Stack trace:
#0 /data/project/xtools/Peachy/Init.php(182): HTTP->get('//en.wikipedia....', Array)
#1 /data/project/xtools/Peachy/Init.php(153): Peachy::wikiChecks('//en.wikipedia....')
#2 /data/project/xtools/public_html/rfa/index.php(36): Peachy::newWiki(NULL, NULL, NULL, '//en.wikipedia....')
#3 {main}
  thrown in /data/project/xtools/Peachy/HTTP.php on line 175</pre>
{{collapse bottom}}
:HTH. –[[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 03:42, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:[[User:Cyberpower678]]: ping. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 08:30, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
::Urgh.  More https crap.  I'll fix it later today.—[[User:C678|<span style="color:green;font-family:Neuropol">cyberpower</span>]] [[User talk:C678|<sup style="color:olive;font-family:arnprior">Chat</sup>]]<sub style="margin-left:-4.4ex;color:olive;font-family:arnprior">Online</sub> 14:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
:::{{fixed}}—[[User:C678|<span style="color:green;font-family:Neuropol">cyberpower</span>]] [[User talk:C678|<sup style="color:olive;font-family:arnprior">Chat</sup>]]<sub style="margin-left:-4.4ex;color:olive;font-family:arnprior">Online</sub> 13:40, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

== Regex editor ==

I have a useful tool in my sidebar toolbox called Regex editor, which I use to store a lot of commonly used stuff like template code and so on. I have no idea how I got it. Since about yesterday none of my stored regexes appear. Can anyone tell me where the tool comes from, or who made or maintains it, or where it stores the stuff saved in it, or whether I have any chance of recovering my saved stuff? Thanks, [[User:Justlettersandnumbers|Justlettersandnumbers]] ([[User talk:Justlettersandnumbers|talk]]) 11:53, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:You probably want the "Add a sidebar menu of user-defined regex tools, with a dynamic form for instant one-use regex (documentation)." option on [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets]]. --[[User:Krenair|<span style="color: orange; font-weight: bold; font-family: Ubuntu;">Krenair</span>]] <sup><span style="font-family: Ubuntu;">([[User talk:Krenair|talk]] &bull; [[Special:Contributions/Krenair|contribs]])</span></sup> 12:27, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
::(Edit conflict) Its probably [[meta:User:Pathoschild/Scripts/Regex menu framework|Regex menu framework]] added via the gadgets tab in your preferences. I guess its yet another tool broken by the switch to https. You might find [[meta:User:Pathoschild/Scripts/TemplateScript]] which is a updated version works better. Wait for it to be fixed by the developer, or use http (see discussion above).--[[User:Salix alba|Salix]] ([[User talk:Salix alba|talk]]): 12:36, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:::{{ec}}Thanks to both for your replies. {{u|Salix}} guessed right from my imperfect description. What a mess. Uncheck the preference box, log out, log in, it all still loads as https. However, deleting the unwanted "s" in the url and reloading the page brings back my regexes. So it still needs fixing, but thanks to you I've at least found a workaround. [[User:Justlettersandnumbers|Justlettersandnumbers]] ([[User talk:Justlettersandnumbers|talk]]) 13:15, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
::::I've notified the developer. (I also fixed the interwikis above, TemplateScript is worth investigating).--[[User:Salix alba|Salix]] ([[User talk:Salix alba|talk]]): 08:05, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

::::: Hello Justlettersandnumbers. The regex editor works fine in HTTPS, but it saves your settings in your browser's local storage which isn't transferred between protocols. You'll need to recreate your settings in HTTPS mode. If you have complex patterns, that might be troublesome; you can save time by transferring the actual storage data.

::::: If you're using the Chrome browser, you can do that like this:
:::::# Install the [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/html5-localstorage-manage/giompennnhheakjcnobejbnjgbbkmdnd/related HTML5 LocalStorage Manager extension].
:::::# When visiting Wikipedia in HTTP mode, open the storage manager by clicking the icon in the URL bar.
:::::# For each entry with a key that starts with "tsre-sessions", copy the key and value into a text file. (Make sure to copy the one just called "tsre-sessions" too!)
:::::# Switch to Wikipedia in HTTPS mode and open the storage manager again.
:::::# Add the entries you just copied.

::::: Your saved patterns should show up now. Let me know if that fixes it for you. (I also [[m:User:Pathoschild/Scripts/Regex menu framework#FAQ|saved this answer as an FAQ]], in case this comes up for anyone else.) —<small>[[User talk:Pathoschild/s|Pathoschild]] 20:01, 31 August 2013 (UTC)</small>

{{outdent}}Thank you for your reply. I've probably got about thirty templates and other things stored in your excellent regex editor. It would not be unthinkable to copy them over to the https version by simply copy-pasting between pages. However, if you happen to be able to give me similar guidance on where to find the data in Safari 5.1.9 (OS 10.6.8), then that would save me some time. Either way, thank you. [[User:Justlettersandnumbers|Justlettersandnumbers]] ([[User talk:Justlettersandnumbers|talk]]) 20:48, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

: Unfortunately I can't find an equivalent extension for Safari. Let me know if you find one. —<small>[[User talk:Pathoschild/s|Pathoschild]] 21:33, 31 August 2013 (UTC)</small>
::In Safari you can [https://developer.apple.com/library/safari/documentation/AppleApplications/Conceptual/Safari_Developer_Guide/2SafariDeveloperTools/SafariDeveloperTools.html enable the 'Developer' menu]. Then go to wikipedia using http mode (set the preference option, log out, log in). from Menu choose ->Developer -> Show Web Inspector. In the new window, at the top left you'll find a row of 8 icons. The first looks like a file, the 2nd as 3 discs. Choose the second. You now have a list of "Cookies, Local Storage, Session Storage". You want the one with "Local Storage". Now follow the steps as described by Pathoschild about copying the entries. Change the preference back to https, log out, log in, and navigate to the same Local Storage screen and enter all the keys again as described. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 22:27, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

::: Thanks, I added that to the FAQ. —<small>[[User talk:Pathoschild/s|Pathoschild]] 00:51, 01 September 2013 (UTC)</small>

::::Thanks for this. It's helpful, but I don't see how it fixes the problem; I can indeed see the tsre- entries where you say, and can copy them; but I can't paste them in that page. Following from what you wrote, I found that the tsre- thingies are also stored in a slightly different format in User> Library> Safari> LocalStorage> http_en.wikipedia.org_0.localstorage. I tried copying that to User> Library> Safari> LocalStorage> https_en.wikipedia.org_0.localstorage, but no dice. Any suggestions? 
::::I also noticed this warning: "<code>The page at https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:Justlettersandnumbers/toolbox&action=edit ran insecure content from http://meta.wikimedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:Pathoschild/Scripts/Regex_menu_framework.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript.</code>", just in case that helps. [[User:Justlettersandnumbers|Justlettersandnumbers]] ([[User talk:Justlettersandnumbers|talk]]) 11:10, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

== Cite toolbar is not fetching any information ==

I have never gotten it to work fetching info for a book from an ISBN but it always fetched data for journal articles from DOIs and at least the titles of webpages from URLs. Now, nothing at all. I am using Firefox 23.0.1, if that makes any difference. -- [[User:Brainy J|<span style="color: #1034A6">Brainy J</span>]] <span style="color: #138808">~</span><span style="color: #602F6B; font-size:medium">✿</span><span style="color: #138808">~</span> ([[User talk:Brainy J|<span style="color: #1034A6">talk</span>]]) 13:11, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:See [[#https change breaks Citation Expander gadget?|this section above]]. '''[[User:Graham87|Graham]]'''[[User talk:Graham87|<span style="color:green;">87</span>]] 05:20, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
:Well, that says that the issue is resolved, but it's not resolved at all: still no citation fro URL or ISBN. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 02:11, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

== Reference list backlink ==

The backlink for reference lists has been restored from the custom ^ caret to the default ↑ up arrow. See [[Help talk:Cite messages#An arrow ↑ or a caret ^?]]. You may have to purge a page for this to show up. 

<ref>Reference</ref>
{{reflist-talk|close=1}}

--<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 22:22, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

:Yuck... I have restored the carets, as the clickable area for the arrows is virtually nil; the arrows are to narrow. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 22:48, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::i really do not care all that much - i have no problem with either the caret or the arrow. if the "clickable area" of either is an issue, it can be easily amended, e.g. by <syntaxhighlight lang=css>span.mw-cite-backlink a { padding 0 6px; }</syntaxhighlight> or somesuch. peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 01:37, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

== js line numbers ==

Thanks for the new line numbering facility when editing <code>.js</code> files. Up to now, I've had to recourse to an external tool when receiving error messages about a bug in "<code>line 242</code>". Don't need that any more, thanks to the numbering. The only disadvantage is the loss of the use of the browser search function, since replaced by the edit-box search function. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">[[User:Ohconfucius|'''<span style="color:#000000; background-color:#00FF00">&nbsp;Ohc&nbsp;</span>''']]</span></small>[[User talk:Ohconfucius|''<sup>¡digame!</sup><sub>¿que pasa?</sub>'']] 01:54, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
== Edit summary no longer providing previously used summaries ==

{{tracked|53636}}
Since a few days ago, the Edit Summary field no longer provides previously used summaries.  These previously used would show up as I started to type characters in the Edit Summary field that matched previous summary beginning characters.  Did something change in WP or was it because I had a regular Microsoft Windows fixes and patches installed on my machine?  How can I get this memory of summaries back?  [[User:Hmains|Hmains]] ([[User talk:Hmains|talk]]) 17:55, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:As far as I know, these edit summaries are stored on your computer, not anywhere on Wikipedia. Changes to your web browser's settings, like clearing the Auto-fill cache or other similar changes, will erase your previous edit summaries. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 18:07, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
::The HTTPS switch would have done this. [[User:Werieth|Werieth]] ([[User talk:Werieth|talk]]) 18:13, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
::(e/c) Because of the switch to the https protocol (as discussed higher up on this page), you're used summaries might no longer be connected with this website, or are no longer stored by your browser on your computer as a privacy measure. If you can tell which browser and version you are using, we might be able to let you know if and how you can restore the storage of such information. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 18:16, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:::Windows v 7; Internet Explorer v 10.  Even new summaries I type now do not show up minutes later when I want to use them again.  [[User:Hmains|Hmains]] ([[User talk:Hmains|talk]]) 19:04, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
::::An IE9 user reported the same at [[Wikipedia:Help desk#Always use secure connection - checked off by default now?]] Autocomplete of stored edit summaries still works for me in Firefox 23. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 20:05, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::I read the help desk entry.  But not being very PC literate, I don't know precisely where to look for what settings. [[User:Hmains|Hmains]] ([[User talk:Hmains|talk]]) 20:30, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
*Does all this mean there is no hope to again have autocomplete of stored edit summaries with IE and that I have to go to Firefox to get them again? [[User:Hmains|Hmains]] ([[User talk:Hmains|talk]]) 15:57, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

:I haven't found a way to get autocomplete in IE at https with the current setup on Wikipedia's side. If http is acceptable to you then you can disable "Always use a secure connection when logged in" at [[Special:Preferences]], log out, close IE, start IE again and log in at http://en.wikipedia.org. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 16:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
::That works for me.  Thanks [[User:Hmains|Hmains]] ([[User talk:Hmains|talk]]) 20:32, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I found the root cause of this problem. It is described [http://webmasters.stackexchange.com/questions/2160/form-autocompletion-not-working/2455#2455 here] and [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/364066/why-is-the-internet-explorer-autocomplete-feature-disabled-for-all-html-forms-on/364094#364094 here]. It sounds like IE long ago implemented a simplified 'security step' (probably because they didn't have secure storage for this information on you computer back then) and they were never motivated to implement it in a different way. Not sure if we can do anything about this, but i'll ask around. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 22:31, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
{{tracked|53681}}
*I'm having this problem, too -- along with the loss of browsing history, etc. that I've already gone into elsewhere on this page. And yes, to repeat, I've  unchecked the new default setting for Https -- but it has no effect. :( [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 01:15, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::I have logged the problem as issue 53681, but I'm not sure if this can be worked around either. It seems as if IE is over actively not remembering things in SSL mode...  Hopefully the two problems with disabling secure browsing in your preferences will be fixed this week, so that you can get back both history and autocomplete, by browsing insecurely. BTW, you will encounter this problem more and more, since about half the websites in the top10 are now using https browsing by default for all users. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 14:40, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

== Template syntax question ==

I have a couple questions about templates, plus a meta-question - is this the best place to ask about template syntax?

The template {{tl|CBB roster}} has a field for weight. While there is no rule against listing weights for women, in practice it isn't done (I just manually checked almost all uses of the template for women's teams) I'd like to add an option to suppress this field, and think the best way to do it is to use the existing parameter for sex, and suppress the field when sex=w.

I think I should use the #switch option. (or maybe #ifeq, because I only have two options?) I need to read up on how to do that, but before I do, I wanted to see if there was a preferable way of handling such a situation.

The second question is related. If I suppress the weight column in the header template, I need to do something with the Player template {{tl|CBB roster/Player}}. That template doesn't have the sex parameter so my question is, do I have to add a parameter and make sure they are coordinated, or is there a way for the Player template to use a parameter passed to the Header template (The Player template will never be used in practice without a header template)--[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="color:#002868;padding:0 4px;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">SPhilbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style=";padding:0 4px;color:# 000;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">(Talk)</span>]] 20:13, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
* Well, [[WP:WikiProject Templates]] would probably be the best place for a question like this. As a general rule, I would suggest checking with the applicable wikiproject (in this case, Basketball), but I agree, since weight has nothing to do with the practice of the sport (they don't have formal weight classifications) it is inappropriate. For the technical aspect, I would suggest using a switch, as this allows several inputs to be treated equivalently, eg <code><nowiki>{{#switch:{{lc:{{{sex|}}}}} | w | f | woman | women | womyn | dames | girl | girls | sugar and spice and everything nice | γυνή | xx | ♀ | female = for god's sake, don't put a woman's weight on Wikipedia!}}</nowiki></code> [[User:Vanisaac|Van]][[User talk:Vanisaac|Isaac]]<sub><small>[[WP:WikiProject Writing systems|WS]] [[WP:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology|Vex]]</small></sub><sup style="margin-left:-7.0ex">[[Special:Contributions/Vanisaac|contribs]]</sup> 23:24, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks, I guess I was thinking of switch versus ifeq incorrectly, I was thinking I have only two outputs, so why not ifeq, but the key is the number of inputs, and there are several. --[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="color:#002868;padding:0 4px;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">SPhilbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style=";padding:0 4px;color:# 000;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">(Talk)</span>]] 02:35, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
:In answer to the second question: It is impossible for a template to use a parameter given to a different template. You'd need to pass the sex parameter to the Header template one way or another. –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 20:24, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks for the confirmation. I ended up adding it to the other template, which was a minor pain, because it meant I had to edit all existing uses of the template, but I've done that. Happy (I guess) to hear that the work was necessary.--[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="color:#002868;padding:0 4px;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">SPhilbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style=";padding:0 4px;color:# 000;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">(Talk)</span>]] 13:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

== Weird diff issue ==

Not using VE I made a comment on a talk page [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABradley_Manning&diff=571011390&oldid=571011236 here] and some material got deleted that I had not touched, this was after being edit conflicted. When I re-added this [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABradley_Manning&diff=571011720&oldid=571011529 something else disappeared]. I do not tamper with other users coments and did not remove either of those statements by accident and am concerned something went wrong technically. Good thing I checked the 1st diff. Any ideas?. Thanks, ♫ [[User:SqueakBox|SqueakBox]] [[User talk:SqueakBox|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/SqueakBox|contribs]] 00:43, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:I would say that this is a symptom of [[#Edit conflicts and section editing|the problems described above]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 07:55, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:::That section is now archived at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 116#Edit conflicts and section editing]].
:::—[[User:Wavelength|Wavelength]] ([[User talk:Wavelength|talk]]) 00:55, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
::<s>The https issue? I did wonder, I always use https and will continue to do so if I dont get further problems.</s> Having reported my conscience is clear. Thanks, ♫ [[User:SqueakBox|SqueakBox]] [[User talk:SqueakBox|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/SqueakBox|contribs]] 00:40, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
:::See the spelling at [[wikt:weird]].
:::—[[User:Wavelength|Wavelength]] ([[User talk:Wavelength|talk]]) 00:55, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
::::Aah, I see to which you are referring now. RedRose64. I too have had the same issues as Slim with ec's from other sections being edited when the section I edited wasnt, and always as far as I am aware on the Chelsea/Bradley Manning article. Wavelength, I have changed the header and learnt how to spell weird properly. Thanks, ♫ [[User:SqueakBox|SqueakBox]] [[User talk:SqueakBox|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/SqueakBox|contribs]] 01:20, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

== HotCat ==

I've found that HotCat isn't working for me. It's been 7 days that HotCat isn't working for me. I've modified my preference for 5 times and cleared my browser's cache too. Can anyone give me a solution? For your help I've given  an attachment here.--'''[[User:Pratyya Ghosh|<span style="color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;">Pr<span style="color:red;">at</span><span style="color:blue;">yya</span></span>]]''' <sup>[[User_talk:Pratyya Ghosh|<span style="color:orange;font-family:Verdana">'''(Hello!)'''</span>]]</sup> 14:44, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
[[File:Screenshots by Pratyya Ghosh 1.png|right|thumb|250px]]
:I'm not sure what the cause is. I have done a bit of cleanup on some of the scripts that you had installed. There are also several scripts (INCLUDING hot cat) listed in your [[User:Pratyya Ghosh/common.js|common.js]] that are available and SHOULD be used from the preferences and then removed from that file. Rule 1 of using userscripts is keeping everything up to date and clean. If you [[WP:BYPASS|clear your cache]], is it any better now ? —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 15:10, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
*And yet another problem I'm suddenly experiencing. I WAS able to use HotCat normally up thru last night -- but now it has "disappeared". I haven't changed any setting that should have any effect on HotCat -- unless this is somehow tied in to the Https situation. But that really doesn't make any sense. And No, I'm not using any scripts, either. [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 01:23, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
**Hmm, there was a small change [https://commons.wikimedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3AGadget-HotCat.js&diff=102094284&oldid=98045291 to hotcat] recently. It might be that that is the cause and that it is just now becoming visible now that you guys purged your browser's cache. Do you have any other failing javascripts, or is it really just this one? —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 07:23, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
***As far as I am aware, no other failing javascripts... Btw, I haven't actually purged my browser's cache. I found the cookies for Wikipedia and opened them both as text files. They were generated by my login and logout -- appear to be completely innocuous as far as I can see. [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 13:00, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:::: I went to use Hotcat a day or two ago and it was missing. Checked my preferences and it was off. Turned it back on, and that seemed to solve it. It hasn't disappeared again.--[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="color:#002868;padding:0 4px;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">SPhilbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style=";padding:0 4px;color:# 000;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">(Talk)</span>]] 13:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::Same, no result. I've cleared my browser's cache, modified my preference again. What'll I do now?--'''[[User:Pratyya Ghosh|<span style="color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;">Pr<span style="color:red;">at</span><span style="color:blue;">yya</span></span>]]''' <sup>[[User_talk:Pratyya Ghosh|<span style="color:orange;font-family:Verdana">'''(Hello!)'''</span>]]</sup> 14:49, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::Update: As I noted below, HotCat suddenly came back for me when my browser regained the ability to access normal Http pages, instead of defaulting to Https pages. I have no idea what caused this change in functionality. I just hope it doesn't revert all over again. [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 14:57, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

== How do I manually create the grey line under level two section headings? ==

Thanks. [[User:Biosthmors|Biosthmors]] ([[User talk:Biosthmors|talk]]) 08:47, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:What are you trying to do? --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 08:57, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::{{ec}} Add a series of four or more hyphens at the beginning of the line <nowiki>-----</nowiki> where you want it to appear; as I've done below.&nbsp;'':)''&nbsp;[[User:John Cline|John Cline]] ([[User talk:John Cline|talk]]) 09:00, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
----
:::That is a horizontal rule and I can't think of any reason to manually create it under a level two heading, since the heading is already styled with a horizontal rule. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 09:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::::Thanks. I don't want to create it under a level two section heading, I just wanted to know how to do it. [[User:Biosthmors|Biosthmors]] ([[User talk:Biosthmors|talk]]) 09:15, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::I see you've figured out how to use it with level five headings. I don't know why. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 09:25, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::The line under level 2 headings is created using some CSS - specifically, [http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/box.html#propdef-border-bottom the <code>border-bottom:</code> property]. If you're interested in the details, they're in [[Template:Fake heading]] which applies the appropriate styling to a {{tag|div}} element instead of to {{tag|h2}} - with the aim of making something that ''looks'' like a section heading without actually being one. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 10:44, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::(ec) Thanks. And hello [[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]], yes for that and for other times in the future (I forget why I've wanted to in the past). I thought it was fun. Something creative. I don't know how to code currently so I'm stuck doing silly things I guess. Maybe you could comment at [[#How_to_best_discuss_potential_feature_requests.3F]], please? I do have an idea about a "feature request", or maybe it should be called something else, regarding Wikipedia. Thanks. [[User:Biosthmors|Biosthmors]] ([[User talk:Biosthmors|talk]]) 11:04, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::::The level 5 headings in [[Wikipedia:Wikimedia Foundation]] fell foul of [[WP:ACCESSIBILITY#Headings]]. I've altered them to level 2. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 11:11, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::OK thanks [[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]]. Isn't that geared towards articles though? What would be the potential harm here? [[User:Biosthmors|Biosthmors]] ([[User talk:Biosthmors|talk]]) 11:15, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::Accessibility should be respected across the ''whole'' of the internet, not just Wikipedia, and certainly not just the pages in article space. For the specifics, see [http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/#qr-navigation-mechanisms-headings How to Meet WCAG 2.0: Section Headings] which links to [http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/G141 G141: Organizing a page using headings], where it states {{xt|In HTML, this would be done using the HTML heading elements (h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, and h6). These allow user agents to automatically identify section headings. ... To facilitate navigation and understanding of overall document structure, authors should use headings that are properly nested (e.g., h1 followed by h2, h2 followed by h2 or h3, h3 followed by h3 or h4, etc.).}} Every page on Wikipedia has an automatically generated level 1 heading (on this page it's "Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)") so we start the sequence at level 2. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 11:25, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::Good to know. Thank you. [[User:Biosthmors|Biosthmors]] ([[User talk:Biosthmors|talk]]) 11:29, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

== Auto-complete function ==

{{tracked|53636}}

After a few days away the auto-complete function of my subject header/edit summary fields has vanished. Is this a Wikipedia issue or a browser issue? I'm on the latest version of IE btw. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 11:03, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:It's most probably [[m:HTTPS]]. The problem has been mentioned in previous sections, see for example [[#Secure site only?]] and [[#Edit summary no longer providing previously used summaries]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 11:16, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks, anyway of getting them back? Or at least storing my new ones? It's a bit of a pain to manually write out edit summaries all the time... [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 11:32, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:::I know how to switch back to http: in Firefox - see [[#Help Needed: Problems due to Secure site change]] above - but I guess you're not using Firefox, since AFAIK Firefox uses the same storage area for auto-complete regardless of http: or https: --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 11:43, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::::No, I'm on IE. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 11:46, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::Yep - adding insult to injury, I lost this function too, along with the browsing history for Wikipedia pages. All thanks to the switch-over to Https. :( [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 12:55, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

{{od}} To answer my own question - there's a tick-box on 'My preferences' which switches it back to non-secure, and has restored all my auto-complete settings. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 14:36, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

== Revision History statistics ==

The "revision history statistics" link to Wikimedia Tool Labs which appears on page histories is currently serving up blank pages: e.g. [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/articleinfo/index.php?article=Main_Page&lang=en&wiki=wikipedia]. Examining source shows
<pre>
<!--Checking for updates...

Peachy is up to date.

--><!--
Fatal error: Uncaught exception 'CURLError' with message 'cURL Error (3): <url> malformed' in /data/project/xtools/Peachy/HTTP.php:175
Stack trace:
#0 /data/project/xtools/Peachy/Init.php(182): HTTP->get('//en.wikipedia....', Array)
#1 /data/project/xtools/Peachy/Init.php(153): Peachy::wikiChecks('//en.wikipedia....')
#2 /data/project/xtools/public_html/WebTool.php(110): Peachy::newWiki(NULL, NULL, NULL, '//en.wikipedia....')
#3 /data/project/xtools/public_html/WebTool.php(48): WebTool::loadPeachy()
#4 /data/project/xtools/public_html/articleinfo/index.php(10): WebTool->__construct('ArticleInfo', 'articleinfo')
#5 {main}
  thrown in /data/project/xtools/Peachy/HTTP.php on line 175
</pre>

Does anyone know whether this do to a malformed link, a tool labs bug or what? <small>[[User talk:NE Ent|NE Ent]]</small> 14:26, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:See [[#Secure_site_breaks_X.21.27s_Edit_Counter]], [[#Error_report_in_RFA]]. Seems to be related to those...pinging the tool maintainer. {{ping|Cyberpower678}} ^^ '''[[User:Theopolisme|<span style="color:#232323;">Theopolisme</span>]] <span style="color:#4F4F4F;">([[User talk:Theopolisme|<span style="color:#4F4F4F;">talk</span>]])</span>''' 14:45, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::{{fixed}}—[[User:C678|<span style="color:green;font-family:Neuropol">cyberpower</span>]] [[User talk:C678|<sup style="color:olive;font-family:arnprior">Chat</sup>]]<sub style="margin-left:-4.4ex;color:olive;font-family:arnprior">Online</sub> 15:09, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
== Date sorting of administrative categories ==

''Précis:'' We should use sort keys to transform [[:Category:Hidden categories]] into an at-a-glance index to all administrative backlogs.

''Full proposal:'' Our list of administration categories as seen at the aforementioned category ([https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Category:Hidden_categories&subcatfrom=Articles+lacking+reliable+references+from+February+2008#mw-subcategories random example]) is sorted by month name, which makes it vastly less useful. Here's how the content of [[:Category:Monthly clean up category (Articles lacking reliable references) counter]] appears:

{{hidden begin
|title = unsorted categories example
|titlestyle = background:pink; text-align:center;
}}
{{div col|2}}
* Articles lacking reliable references from April 2007‎ (138 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from April 2008‎ (462 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from April 2009‎ (500 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from April 2010‎ (584 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from April 2011‎ (576 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from April 2012‎ (719 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from April 2013‎ (701 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2006‎ (10 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2007‎ (228 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2008‎ (451 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2009‎ (562 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2010‎ (632 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2011‎ (680 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2012‎ (940 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2013‎ (749 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from December 2006‎ (173 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from December 2007‎ (617 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from December 2008‎ (523 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from December 2009‎ (489 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from December 2010‎ (720 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from December 2011‎ (703 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from December 2012‎ (612 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from February 2007‎ (101 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from February 2008‎ (407 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from February 2009‎ (382 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from February 2010‎ (540 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from February 2011‎ (553 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from February 2012‎ (725 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from February 2013‎ (1,703 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from January 2007‎ (204 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from January 2008‎ (555 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from January 2009‎ (623 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from January 2010‎ (657 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from January 2011‎ (815 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from January 2012‎ (794 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from January 2013‎ (772 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2006‎ (35 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2007‎ (259 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2008‎ (427 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2009‎ (448 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2010‎ (503 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2011‎ (650 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2012‎ (752 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2013‎ (669 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2006‎ (8 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2007‎ (256 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2008‎ (421 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2009‎ (511 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2010‎ (574 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2011‎ (660 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2012‎ (646 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2013‎ (703 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2005‎ (1 page)
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2007‎ (110 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2008‎ (661 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2009‎ (613 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2010‎ (602 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2011‎ (597 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2012‎ (759 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2013‎ (675 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from May 2007‎ (151 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from May 2008‎ (506 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from May 2009‎ (483 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from May 2010‎ (512 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from May 2011‎ (549 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from May 2012‎ (876 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from May 2013‎ (540 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from November 2006‎ (46 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from November 2007‎ (222 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from November 2008‎ (520 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from November 2009‎ (510 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from November 2010‎ (552 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from November 2011‎ (667 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from November 2012‎ (733 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from October 2006‎ (4 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from October 2007‎ (251 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from October 2008‎ (373 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from October 2009‎ (425 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from October 2010‎ (435 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from October 2011‎ (697 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from October 2012‎ (756 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from September 2007‎ (245 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from September 2008‎ (278 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from September 2009‎ (469 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from September 2010‎ (557 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from September 2011‎ (910 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from September 2012‎ (936 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from September 2013‎ (38 pages)
{{div col end}}
{{hidden end}}

As you can see, extremely difficult to quickly assess. On the other hand, if we sort by year, then month, like this:

{{hidden begin
|title = correctly date-sorted categories example
|titlestyle = background:pink; text-align:center;
}}
{{div col|2}}
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2005‎ (1 page)

* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2006‎ (8 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2006‎ (35 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2006‎ (10 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from October 2006‎ (4 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from November 2006‎ (46 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from December 2006‎ (173 pages)

* Articles lacking reliable references from January 2007‎ (204 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from February 2007‎ (101 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2007‎ (110 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from April 2007‎ (138 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from May 2007‎ (151 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2007‎ (256 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2007‎ (259 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2007‎ (228 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from September 2007‎ (245 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from October 2007‎ (251 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from November 2007‎ (222 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from December 2007‎ (617 pages)

* Articles lacking reliable references from January 2008‎ (555 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from February 2008‎ (407 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2008‎ (661 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from April 2008‎ (462 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from May 2008‎ (506 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2008‎ (421 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2008‎ (427 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2008‎ (451 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from September 2008‎ (278 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from October 2008‎ (373 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from November 2008‎ (520 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from December 2008‎ (523 pages)

* Articles lacking reliable references from January 2009‎ (623 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from February 2009‎ (382 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2009‎ (613 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from April 2009‎ (500 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from May 2009‎ (483 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2009‎ (511 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2009‎ (448 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2009‎ (562 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from September 2009‎ (469 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from October 2009‎ (425 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from November 2009‎ (510 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from December 2009‎ (489 pages)

* Articles lacking reliable references from January 2010‎ (657 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from February 2010‎ (540 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2010‎ (602 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from April 2010‎ (584 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from May 2010‎ (512 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2010‎ (574 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2010‎ (503 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2010‎ (632 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from September 2010‎ (557 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from October 2010‎ (435 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from November 2010‎ (552 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from December 2010‎ (720 pages)

* Articles lacking reliable references from January 2011‎ (815 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from February 2011‎ (553 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2011‎ (597 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from April 2011‎ (576 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from May 2011‎ (549 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2011‎ (660 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2011‎ (650 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2011‎ (680 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from September 2011‎ (910 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from October 2011‎ (697 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from November 2011‎ (667 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from December 2011‎ (703 pages)

* Articles lacking reliable references from January 2012‎ (794 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from February 2012‎ (725 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2012‎ (759 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from April 2012‎ (719 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from May 2012‎ (876 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2012‎ (646 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2012‎ (752 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2012‎ (940 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from September 2012‎ (936 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from October 2012‎ (756 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from November 2012‎ (733 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from December 2012‎ (612 pages)

* Articles lacking reliable references from January 2013‎ (772 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from February 2013‎ (1,703 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from March 2013‎ (675 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from April 2013‎ (701 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from May 2013‎ (540 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from June 2013‎ (703 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from July 2013‎ (669 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from August 2013‎ (749 pages)
* Articles lacking reliable references from September 2013‎ (38 pages){{div col end}}
{{hidden end}}

Suddenly, it starts providing an at-a-glance overview of each type of administrative category. And something immediately jumps out - [[Leaving Certificate Vocational Programme|an article that's been tagged ''since 2005'']], but was otherwise buried in a mess of categories. (See if you can spot it in the first example.)

I believe that this could be accomplished by setting numeric [[WP:SORTKEY|sort keys]] of the form ''yyyy-mm'' in each template that provides an administrative category. That in turn would require some logic in {{tl|Ambox}}.

To me, this is a quick win in terms of improving our interface to the ever-growing mountain of administrative backlogs, and we should get on the case with it. — [[User:Scott Martin|'''<span style="color:#000">Scott</span>''']] <span style="color:#900">•</span> [[User talk:Scott Martin|''<span style="color:#000">talk</span>'']] 12:18, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:On one hand, I don't see a big gain. It doesn't reduce the backlog. However, to the extent that volunteers cleaning the backlog should start with the oldest, it does make it easier to identify the oldest. Sounds like it should not be hard to implement, so while the gain may be low, the cost may be very low, thereby justifying it. Are you planning to do the template coding, and are just looking for community support?--[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="color:#002868;padding:0 4px;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">SPhilbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style=";padding:0 4px;color:# 000;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">(Talk)</span>]] 12:56, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::Hi Sphilbrick - thanks, that's just the conclusion I came to. It doesn't actively fix anything, but it does provide another little avenue for people to work on backlogs. I figure we should always keep our eyes open for that kind of thing. Regarding the implementation, the comments below have already shown that the situation is a little more complicated than I thought it was, but if people are able to work out how to get it working, I'll certainly be involved in applying the fix. — [[User:Scott Martin|'''<span style="color:#000">Scott</span>''']] <span style="color:#900">•</span> [[User talk:Scott Martin|''<span style="color:#000">talk</span>'']] 11:01, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
::[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Template%3AAFC_submission%2Fdeclined&diff=566236518&oldid=566146975 Something kind of similar] was done for G13-eligible submissions...replace the <code><nowiki>{{REVISIONTIMESTAMP}}</nowiki></code>s in the linked diff with the applicable variables and I believe that would work... '''[[User:Theopolisme|<span style="color:#232323;">Theopolisme</span>]] <span style="color:#4F4F4F;">([[User talk:Theopolisme|<span style="color:#4F4F4F;">talk</span>]])</span>''' 13:20, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:::That works for categories set explicitly; however, {{cl|Hidden categories}} is not one of those. Cats such as {{cl|Articles lacking reliable references from April 2007‎}} are in {{cl|Hidden categories}} because they use the <code>_<nowiki>_HIDDENCAT_</nowiki>_</code> [[H:MW|magic word]], which doesn't have provision for a sort key. You need to trace through nested subtemplates to find it: {{tlx|Monthly clean-up category}} → {{tlx|Monthly clean-up category/outer core}} → {{tlx|Monthly clean-up category/core}} → {{tlx|Wikipedia category}} --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 13:27, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::::I can't completely understand what you're getting at, so I decided to run a test.  I added DEFAULTSORT:2007.04 to [[:Category:Articles lacking reliable references from April 2007]], and here's what happened for each of its parent categories:
*It sorts as 2 in [[:Category:Hidden categories]]
*No change in [[:Category:Articles lacking reliable references]], but that's already sorted by date
*No change in [[:Category:Monthly clean up category counter]]
*No change in [[:Category:Monthly clean up category (Articles lacking reliable references) counter]], but that's already sorted by date
*It sorts as 2 in [[:Category:Clean up categories from April 2007]], but that's topical, so date sorting wouldn't help
::::Is it at all helpful that I got the page to sort differently in Hidden categories?  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 14:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

== Firefox is getting confused by the secure connection ==

This is not a problem with me, because it just amounts to bringing the article up anew, rather than re-loading.  But not for the first time since the change, I'd had an article open for an extended time and did the "re-load" at the top of the page.  I got "problem loading" on the tab, and this message in the body:

:Document Expired This document is no longer available.The requested document is not available in Firefox's cache. As a security precaution, Firefox does not automatically re-request sensitive documents. Click Try Again to re-request the document from the website.

Doesn't happen a lot, but I think Firefox is confused sometimes by the change. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 23:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:I think it's exactly what it says it is. The server told firefox to cache the files (for x minutes), the x minutes expired, so Firefox removed all history of it from your disk, you reload, and FF tells you it has done what it has done and that you should hit the reload button once more. I agree it might not look pretty, but I hardly would call it confused. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 07:14, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
::BTW, actually adding a link to the report might help. Perhaps we have pages that are overly aggressive with throwing away pages, and MediaWiki/WMF needs to be a bit more specific in setting cache headers. Not sure if that is possible, but you'd need at least a URL to make that assessment. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 07:21, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
:::For what it's worth, the above message happened with [[Charles Henry Page]], which I had created yesterday and had open in one tab, while I was browsing elsewhere in other tabs and windows.  When I went back to it and did the re-load, it gave off that message. As for when it happened before on another date, I don't know what I was looking at. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 12:19, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

== Updates on the Https situation ==

*'''Update1''' - Hmmm. Has something been tweaked on ''your'' end? (i.e. some lines of code at Wikipedia/Wikimedia?) Just in the last hour I discovered that I was able to access Http pages while I'm logged in -- which I was NOT able to do before (except for a very short period over the weekend). They're also showing up in my browser history, as expected. And I can see that HotCat has returned, as well (though I haven't tried using it as of yet). However -- you knew that was coming, didn't you?? -- there's still some work to be done: When I accessed a couple of articles via redirects, they displayed as though I had suddenly logged out, even though I hadn't done so and was in fact ''demonstrably still logged in!'' (The links on those pages took me to normal pages that displayed properly.) I'll post another update later on today. Needless to say, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that things won't revert to dysfunctionality in the next couple of hours! [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 14:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::'''Addendum''' to Update1: Complicating the picture I described in my update above, I just had a couple of pages accessed via redirects display ''properly'' -- but a couple of Category pages displayed improperly, as though I had logged out. So it seems there's no real pattern to whatever the hell is going on. <sigh> [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 15:33, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:::I doubt anything was changed on the WMF side. It was weekend, and then it was labor day, so people were mostly not working. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 07:28, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
::::True enough. Though I was thinking it might have been the work of someone based in the UK, where they don't observe the holiday. [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 23:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::The only thing on the deployment calendar for yesterday was the daily (Monday to Thursday) [https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Lightning_deployments "Lightning deployments"] slot at 1600 PDT, and I'm not sure that anything happened then. [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 04:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
*'''Update2''' - Okay, it is now many hours later in the day. The positive developments I noted earlier have held up without reverting to the intractable problems I experienced over the weekend. For the most part, I am able to access Http pages and they display properly -- i.e. the Wiki software recognizes that I am logged in. I can also report that HotCat is functioning normally for me -- another major relief. However, there is still a recurring problem that crops up in a ''seemingly'' random fashion, causing certain pages to display as though I was not logged in -- even though I can go directly to other pages that display normally, without having had to log in again first. I suspect, however, that these problem pages may not be ''entirely'' random -- iow, they may possibly have some feature in common that results in problems with the new software -- mainly because certain pages continue to exhibit this problem every time I access them. Case in point: [[:Category:Biological evolution]], which displays as though I'm just an Anon. IP editor every time.  Guess that'll do it for now. I hope I've given you techies enough "hints" to make some headway in tracking down the source of the problem. :) [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 04:32, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
::'''Addendum''' to Update2: Another possibly interesting clue to whatever the underlying issue might be: On a few occasions when I loaded a page and it displayed as though I was not logged in, I have clicked on the link in the upper right corner for the Log-in page -- but then, instead of actually going thru with the log-in process, I went right "back" to the problem page -- and it then displayed properly. Very puzzling! [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 23:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

== Script not working ==

Hi, have been away for a week and the script for adding links into the left-hand menu (monobook) no longer appears to be operating. I use a version of [[User:Jsimlo/shortcuts.js]]. Anyone any ideas as to what has changed to cause this to not operate. Thanks. [[User:Keith D|Keith D]] ([[User talk:Keith D|talk]]) 11:47, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
:The change to default to https maybe? See above.--[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 12:58, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
::Well I at the very least converted it to not use document.write anymore (only 7 years deprecated method of including scripts). But I don't really get any errors if I load your scripts. Do you get any errors in the error log of your browser (not sure which one you are using) ?  —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 13:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Using Firefox 23.0.1. How do you see the error log? [[User:Keith D|Keith D]] ([[User talk:Keith D|talk]]) 00:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
::::Looks like whatever you changed worked and the links are back now. Many thanks. [[User:Keith D|Keith D]] ([[User talk:Keith D|talk]]) 00:55, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

== Something is making templates repeat. Something is making templates repeat. Something is making-- ==

What is going on at [[Sulle sathya]]? The wikicode for the page and the multiple issues container appears fine, but for some reason the tags on the top of the article repeat themselves in a rather broken fashion several times. --'''[[User:Tikuko|<span style="color: black">T</span><span style="color: orange">K</span><span style="color: gray">K</span>]]'''! [[User talk:Tikuko|<small>bark with me if you're my dog!</small>]] 14:45, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
:There was only one '}' after <samp>cleanup-bare URLs</samp>; I added another and it is fine now. [[User:Chris857|Chris857]] ([[User talk:Chris857|talk]]) 14:58, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
== Can't edit my javascript page ==

When I tried to add a script to my [[User:Miniapolis/vector.js|javascript page]], the WikEd toolbar appears but there's no edit window to use (OS Windows XP, browser FF 23.0.1). No change when I purge the cache, and I've opted out of VE. Thanks and all the best, [[User:Miniapolis|'''''<span style="color:navy">Mini</span>''''']][[User_talk:Miniapolis|'''''<span style="color:#8B4513">apolis</span>''''']] 23:41, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:Pehaps WikEd is in conflict with the newly deployed Code Editor? <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 00:35, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

:You may be right. I finally got to full-screen mode (my WikEd default everywhere else) when I found the button on the right of the toolbar, but the code wouldn't preview (or save) until I turned Code Editor off. Thanks for the quick response to you both and all the best, [[User:Miniapolis|'''''<span style="color:navy">Mini</span>''''']][[User_talk:Miniapolis|'''''<span style="color:#8B4513">apolis</span>''''']] 01:18, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
:: I have no issues editing my .js pages with wikiEd and the new code editor... [[User:Technical 13|Technical 13]] ([[User talk:Technical 13|talk]]) 00:42, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
:::wiked has a little switch to the right of "log out" at the top of the screen that lets you turn it off. i think what you probably want to do is turn off wiked when editing .js pages. it's one click to turn off (on .js page), and one more to turn it back on when you want wiked back. peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 01:36, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
::::I just had the same experience in not being able to edit my own common.js  After reading this, I unchecked WikEd and was able to make the edits.  Thanks for the advice here, but I hope this gets resolved. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 18:42, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

== How to best discuss potential feature requests? ==

I have been trying to optimize the wording that relates to feature requests over at [[WP:WMF]]. I see from [[mw:How_to_report_a_bug#Reporting_a_new_bug_or_feature_request|here]] that one submits a feaure request by selecting "enhancement" for severity once one is reporting a bug in Bugzilla. [[:Category:Wikipedia feature requests]] currently says "To post a feature request, please visit [[Wikipedia:Bugzilla]] or [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)]]. This is a collection of ideas that have been put forward as [[Wikipedia:feature request|Wikipedia requests for new software features]]. Feedback on these ideas is encouraged." (I tagged the feedback sentence with {{where}}. Where would that feedback go?) Is there any consensus on whether WP:VPP, WP:VPI, or WP:VPT is the best place to discuss potential feature requests when people don't have enough information to go to Bugzilla yet? Thanks. [[User:Biosthmors|Biosthmors]] ([[User talk:Biosthmors|talk]]) 15:55, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
* '''Perhaps start with wp:VPIL or become a developer:''' The most open-minded responses are likely to be posted at [[wp:VPIL]], whereas [[wp:PROPS]] often garners severely critical replies. However, it is becoming apparent that unless the intended changes severely cripple Wikipedia performance, or only appeal to 3% of editors wanting a [[WYSIWYG]] interface, they are unlikely to be implemented. I think we will need to form our own group of volunteer developers to make any real improvements for WP because the "Foundation is about all projects not just English Wikipedia". -[[User:Wikid77|Wikid77]] ([[User talk:Wikid77|talk]]) 17:18, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
* Hi, Biosthmors. I think [[m:Tech]] and WP:VPT are both okay places to start talking about potential requests for new features, but I would also encourage people to put their ideas into [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org Bugzilla] as soon as possible; it's okay to put an incomplete idea in and point to more discussion happening onwiki. It's possible to change the "summary" (title) of a Bugzilla issue after submitting it, and to automatically "cc" specific developers and managers so they're notified of new comments, and to link issues together as "this depends on that". You might want to also recommend [https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-ambassadors the wikitech-ambassadors mailing list] and [[mw:MediaWiki on IRC]] as more places to hear and talk about upcoming changes to the software. Does that help? [[User:Sharihareswara (WMF)|Sumana Harihareswara, Wikimedia Foundation Engineering Community Manager]] ([[User talk:Sharihareswara (WMF)|talk]]) 14:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

== Jumpy browser windows ==

I've never experienced this problem before: I don't, however, think it's related to the http/https change, because it's not only happening on WMF projects (although it is at its worst here) – if I have two or three browser windows open (Pale Moon 20.3 on Windows 7), every so often the browser windows get jumpy and become shuffled up in the wrong order. Although this happened a few times over the weekend, it has now happened 50+ times already today. Perversely enough, the same thing is happening on an acquaintance's computer with Firefox 23.0.1 on Windows Vista; also mostly whilst surfing/searching on WMF pages (but may I stress, not just here – only the majority of the time). Any tips on what it could be and/or what I can do? [[User:Jared Preston|Jared Preston]] ([[User talk:Jared Preston|talk]]) 13:25, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
:' the browser windows get jumpy and become shuffled up in the wrong order'. Can you try some screenshots instead ? It's difficult to decode a textual description of a visual problem. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 13:33, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
::There's nothing special to take a screenshot of. Example: Window 1 has tabs with BBC News and BBC Sport open, Window 2 tabs with Wikipedia Main Page, my watchlist, etc, Window 3 similar tabs with Commons pictures. Then I go to edit a a wikipage, then all of a sudden, Window 1 with the BBC news articles is now in third position, the second window with the Wikipedia tabs is now in third position and so on. It seems that it's a problem with my browser or with the OS, but really only seems to happen when I'm making an edit to WMF pages. The pages aren't faulty, the tabs inside each window are in the same order, but the windows themselves are getting shuffled – it happens within the bat of an eyelid. [[User:Jared Preston|Jared Preston]] ([[User talk:Jared Preston|talk]]) 16:04, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
:::i venture a wild guess: the behavior's source to is some firefox extension (aka "add on") you installed. try to disable all your FF extensions and see if the behavior persists. if disabling all of them cures the issue, it should not be that hard to pinpoint the culprit. peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 18:02, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
::::Already tried that. I do indeed have two add-ons, but disabling + newstart hasn't helped. [[User:Jared Preston|Jared Preston]] ([[User talk:Jared Preston|talk]]) 18:45, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::This is not going to help you, but on my system, Firefox has been doing the bouncy-bounce thing for years.  Pale Moon is based on Firefox, right? Not exactly like you describe, more like a matter of pages loading. And I'm on WindowsXP. I have the current version of Firefox, but this bouncy thing has been going on since Firefox 3 or 4.  Been a long time.  I've already been through the disabling of extensions and whatnot.  It doesn't just happen on Wikipedia - it opens all websites with the bouncy thing.  But it's Wikipedia where it's annoying - I've learned to live with it, like a favorite relative with an annoying habit. If I open an edit window....bouncy, bouncy, bouncy. Same thing in doing a Preview. Where it's really inconvenient is when I open a new  Wikipedia page. Firefox populates the top of the page WP menu in its own good time.  I think it's finished, and I click "Watchlist". The moment I click, it populates  "Preferences" beneath my cursor in a nanosecond, and that's what opens. Not a big a deal, but annoying.  What is a big deal, is that if I try to click "Unwatch" as a watched page loads, it will jump and instead of unwatching the page,  I have clicked on XFD which, thankfully, is a popup I can cancel before I've deleted a page. Bouncy, bouncy, bouncy. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 19:20, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::I'm glad I don't have any favourite relatives, haha, but that must be ''really'' annoying. It was happening so often yesterday that I did indeed find it quite vexatious. But today it hasn't happened once; just as out of the blue as it started. So I'm no further on finding the cause, and I certainly hope that it does not comes back. Maile, I wish you strength! [[User:Jared Preston|Jared Preston]] ([[User talk:Jared Preston|talk]]) 14:16, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

== Tweaking spelling script to return fewer false positives ==

I'm interested to tweak a wonderful script I've recently begun using: [[User:Symplectic_Map/AutoSpell]]. Most of what I want to do is simple enough, like removing a couple of the misspellings that return false positives and changing the edit summary a little. The one thing I don't have the JavaScript knowledge to do, however, is to make it so it ignores words surrounded by dashes, hyphens, or %20s (in other words, to skip over URLs). Is there someone that might be able to help me with that? The specific script that I think it would concern would be [[User:Symplectic_Map/script.js]] or perhaps [[User:Symplectic_Map/spell.js]].
Thanks. --[[User:Rhododendrites|Rhododendrites]] ([[User talk:Rhododendrites|talk]]) 14:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
:{{replyto|Rhododendrites}} I can't do JavaScript, but you could experiment with the regex I've posted near the end of [[User:John of Reading/Typo fixing with AutoWikiBrowser#Creating the list|this section]], which skips words preceded ''and'' followed by unusual punctuation. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 18:40, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

== Collection of "unique device identification numbers" ==

MOVED TO [[meta:Talk:Privacy_policy#Collection_of_.22unique_device_identification_numbers.22]] <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.169.185.183|86.169.185.183]] ([[User talk:86.169.185.183|talk]]) 20:48, 4 September 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP -->

== ClueBot down ==

Anyone noticed that ClueBot NG is down? [[User:Insulam Simia|Insulam Simia]] ([[User talk:Insulam Simia|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Insulam Simia|contribs]]) 18:09, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
:I did wonder whi {{diff|Template:Cleanup/doc|prev|571528096|this}} wasn't reverted automatically. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 18:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
::ClueBot hasn't made an edit since 14:50. [[User:Insulam Simia|Insulam Simia]] ([[User talk:Insulam Simia|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Insulam Simia|contribs]]) 19:25, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

== File linking is broken ==

Over the last few hours I've noticed something odd about [[:File:Wikivoyage favicon.svg#mw-imagepage-section-linkstoimage|this File usage list]]: it's lengthening, not shortening. To make sure I wasn't mistaken, I made a note of the entries from A to F, which totalled 15; later on, I refreshed the list to find that there were now 16. Checking my notes, I found that the extra entry was [[Formentera]] which seems to have been added with {{diff|Formentera|prev|562711484|this edit}}. I made a [[WP:NULLEDIT]]; which correctly removed it again. The effect of the null edit I understand; the effect of the true edit I do not.

Until yesterday, [[:File:Wikivoyage favicon.svg]] was in that article, due to the use of {{tlx|Wikivoyage-inline}}; but that template was edited {{diff|Template:Sister-inline|prev|571284216|23 hours ago}} to replace the image with the new one for Wikivoyage: I would expect the File usage list to shorten, not lengthen. How can the job queue be so badly out of step? --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 20:29, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
:Thanks to whoever ran a null bot over that list - following a handful of true edits, it's now clear. Please would you run the same bot through [[:File:Wikivoyage-logo.svg#mw-imagepage-section-linkstoimage|this list]]; it's not expanding, but shortening; but is taking a very long time to do so. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:31, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

== RfC: Should Userbox templates in Template: space be nominated at TfD or MfD ==

This is a quick notice to inform the contributors of this village pump that there is a [[WP:RfC]] being conducted at [[WT:Templates for discussion#RfC: Should Userbox templates in Template: space be nominated at TfD or MfD]] that I think you may be interested in.  Happy editing! [[User:Technical 13|Technical 13]] ([[User talk:Technical 13|talk]]) 21:01, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
== Creating a form to make a new disambiguation page ==

I'd like someone with the know-how to create a form so that editors wishing to make a new disambiguation page can just plug in a few terms and have the page automatically generated. Basically, I'd like a form with a field for the ambiguous term, and any number of fields for the list of articles that are ambiguous to that term, and a separate field for inputting brief description of the listed articles. I would also like this form to automatically generate the formatting where names of albums and films are entered, (e.g. <nowiki>[[Avatar (film)|''Avatar'' (film)]]</nowiki>). Can this be done? [[User:BD2412|<span style="background:gold;">'''''bd2412'''''</span>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 15:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
:Disambig pages' structure vary based on topic. It seems like a waste of time to have a variety of templates made for such a miniscule task. [[User:Killiondude|Killiondude]] ([[User talk:Killiondude|talk]]) 20:13, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
:: I'm not asking for templates, but for a single form, into which the relevant information could be plugged in, and the right formatting would be put out. Wikipedia has close to 235,000 disambiguation pages, and that number grows by a few dozen more every day. The vast majority of them follow one of two basic structures:

For subjects with no primary topic:

'''Foo''' may refer to:

*[[Foo (bar)]], a foobar
*[[Foo (barfoo)]], a barfoo
*[[Foo (fubaroo)]], a Ruritarian fubaroo

<nowiki>{{disambiguation}}</nowiki>

For subjects with a primary topic, where the disambiguation page is at "Foo (disambiguation)":

'''[[Foo]]''' is a kind of bar. It may also refer to:

*[[Foo (barfoo)]], a barfoo
*[[Foo (fubaroo)]], a Ruritarian fubaroo

<nowiki>{{disambiguation}}</nowiki>

::: They may be divided by section headings when there are enough topics, but that is the work of maintenance, not of creation. With respect to disambig page creation, I ask because it has been asked about on our project page. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|<span style="background:gold;">'''''bd2412'''''</span>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 20:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
::::Thread here: [[Wikipedia_talk:Disambiguation#Needed: a simple "how to create a disambiguation page" section]] <small>(guideline talkpage, not project page ;P )</small> And the user requesting it, does have a few good points. I'm not sure how we'd go about ''linking'' to a hypothetical disambig-page wizard though. Would we just need to build it into [[WP:AFC]]? Ooooo, {{ping|BD2412}} click on "Redirect wizard" at the bottom there, and then click the "I'm ready to ...." button....  –[[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 00:05, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
::::: Something like that for disambiguation pages would be very nice indeed. [[User:BD2412|<span style="background:gold;">'''''bd2412'''''</span>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 19:06, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

== GA Bot is offline ==

{{User|GA bot}}, which keeps the list of [[WP:GA|good article]] nominations at [[WP:GAN]] up to date, has recently been turned off due to its maintainer, {{User|Chris G}} no longer having the time to support it. The source code is online [https://svn.toolserver.org/svnroot/chris/ here], and in theory I've got the technical chops to take this over and test it with a sandbox copy of MediaWiki, but I don't know the first thing about running it live and supporting it. Can anyone help out?

The relevant discussion is [[Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations#What to do without GA bot?|here]] [[User:Ritchie333|<span style="color:#7F007F;">'''Ritchie333'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)</sup>]]  08:13, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
:Legobot has taken over this task. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 04:20, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

== What's this new feature? ==

[[File:Wikimedia feature on English Wikipedia.jpg|thumb|See the grey bar on the right of the screen.]]
Could someone give me a link so I could read about this new feature? Thanks. [[User:Biosthmors|Biosthmors]] ([[User talk:Biosthmors|talk]]) 09:25, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
: [[Wikipedia:New Page Triage#Curation Toolbar]]. [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 10:06, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
::See also [[Wikipedia:Page Curation/Help#Curation Toolbar]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 10:18, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

== Mobile: Authority control not showing ==

It seems that our {{tl|Authority control}} template is not showing on our mobile view. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 11:25, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
:It's there (see [//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Toffler bottom of this page], expand the "External links" section), but is inconspicuous because there is no enclosing border. Styling is a bit odd because there is a vertical grey line between "Authority control" and "WorldCat". It's both the border-right of the {{tag|th}} and the border-left of the {{tag|td}}. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 11:40, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
== Edit notice customization for Special:EmailUser ==

Hey folks!  I know I can customize an edit notice at a Special:EmailUser page.

My question is: can I add a preload to the edit box at that page some way (like using &preload=  in the url )?  

Thanks and cheers, [[User:Ocaasi|Ocaasi]]<sup> [[User talk:Ocaasi|t ]]&#124;[[Special:Contributions/Ocaasi| c]]</sup> 14:03, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
:Do you mean like [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Legoktm?wpText=blahblah this]? [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 16:27, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
::Exactly like that!  Thanks [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] :) [[User:Ocaasi|Ocaasi]]<sup> [[User talk:Ocaasi|t ]]&#124;[[Special:Contributions/Ocaasi| c]]</sup> 16:58, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

== Today's featured article blurb and random pictures ==

{{resolved|Null Bot to the rescue! [[User:Bencherlite|Bencherlite]][[User talk:Bencherlite|<i><sup>Talk</sup></i>]] 19:40, 5 September 2013 (UTC)}}
* [[Wikipedia:Today's featured article/September 12, 2013]]

Rather than attempt to pick one picture to illustrate the [[Middle Ages]], I've picked five and am using {{tl|Random subpage}} to load the images into the blurb.  Can anyone see any technical issues with this?  Ought I to include a {{tl|purge}} in there too or will different people get different images when they visit anyway? Thanks in advance for your help. [[User:Bencherlite|Bencherlite]][[User talk:Bencherlite|<i><sup>Talk</sup></i>]] 15:08, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
:People won't see a new image unless the main page is purged. Also the main page is more heavily cached than other pages, so people still might not see a random image. That said, if [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Joe's Null Bot 2]] is still running, it probably will just end up rotating the images every 15 minutes. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 15:24, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
::That bot has been set to be inactive as TAFI is off the main page.  I'll ask the botop if he can resurrect it for that day.  The Obama / McCin double TFA on [[Wikipedia:Today's featured article/November 4, 2008]] was randomised using [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.js&diff=prev&oldid=249554621 some shuffle coding], but I'm not sure how to do that for this sort of thing, or whether it's worth it. Thoughts? [[User:Bencherlite|Bencherlite]][[User talk:Bencherlite|<i><sup>Talk</sup></i>]] 15:39, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
::: Can do.  --[[User:Joe Decker|j⚛e decker]][[User talk:Joe Decker|<sup><small><i>talk</i></small></sup>]] 19:32, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

== Finding ACTIVE foreign language speakers. ==

There are many, many people who have put themselves in the various categories for foreign language speaking ability. But on the occasions where I've needed such linguistic assistance, I've waded through many names, only to find that the categorized had not been here for years. Could we possibly do something to make it possible to search those categories only for those who have been active here with some reasonably recency? [[User:DeistCosmos|DeistCosmos]] ([[User talk:DeistCosmos|talk]]) 19:34, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

:Try [[Wikipedia:Translators available]].  We updated it a year or two ago to differentiate between people who were active and inactive at the time, and the format gives you quick access to their contributions to verify it.  (If anyone wants to re-assess, please feel free!  It's too bad that we can't have a bot check editors' status for that page as well as for WikiProject membership lists.)  [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 20:38, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
:: Why can't we? [[User:DeistCosmos|DeistCosmos]] ([[User talk:DeistCosmos|talk]]) 21:05, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
:::I suppose we could, assuming someone actually wrote it.  I don't know how.  My skills at programming require pretty significant handholding to make even tiny changes.  [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 21:37, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
:::: Hence your name!! ;) [[User:DeistCosmos|DeistCosmos]] ([[User talk:DeistCosmos|talk]]) 22:49, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
::::: [[WP:BOTREQ]] is the place to suggest a new bot. There are a number of editors who enjoy coding these.  -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 01:42, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

== VisualEditor weekly update - 2013-09-05 (MW 1.22wmf16) ==

Hey all,

Here is a copy of the weekly [[mw:VisualEditor/status#2013-09-05 (MW 1.22wmf16)|update]] for the [[Wikipedia:VisualEditor|VisualEditor]] project. This is so that you all know what is happening, and make sure you have as much opportunity to tell us when we're wrong and help guide the priorities for development and improvement:

<div class="toccolours" style="float:none; padding: 10px 15px 10px 15px; display:table;">
VisualEditor was updated as part of the wider [[mw:MediaWiki 1.22/wmf16|MediaWiki 1.22wmf16 branch deployment]] on Thursday 5 September. In the week since 1.22wmf15, the team worked on some interface changes, fixing bugs, and stability & performance improvements to VisualEditor.

In new features, we have changed the toolbar to be simpler, shorter, and to have the ability to have drop-down groups with descriptions. At least initially, we have moved all but the most basic tools into a single drop-down, including inserting media, templates and other transclusions, and references & reference lists. As part of this, the controls to add <code><nowiki><u></nowiki></code> (underline), <code><nowiki><sub></nowiki></code> (subscript), and <code><nowiki><sup></nowiki></code> (superscript), <code><nowiki><s></nowiki></code> (strikethrough) and <code><nowiki><u></nowiki></code> (underline) annotations to text will now be available to all users in the drop-down.

We also added a set of keyboard shortcuts for setting the block formatting: {{key press|Ctrl|0}} sets a block as a paragraph; {{key press|Ctrl|1}} up to {{key press|Ctrl|6}} sets it as a Heading 1 ("Page title") to Heading 6 ("Sub-heading 4"); {{key press|Ctrl|7}} sets it as pre-formatted ([[bugzilla:33512|bug 33512]]). The help/'beta' menu now exposes the build number next to the "Leave feedback" link, so users can give better reports about issues they encounter ([[bugzilla:53050|bug 53050]]).

When inserting a new link into a blank location, we now additionally suggest lower-case link anchors as well as the upper-case equivalent if you've typed that in, so typing in "iPhone" will prompt "iPhone" as well as "IPhone" ([[bugzilla:50452|bug 50452]]). Inserting media files when some content is selected no longer replaces the content, but puts the media item at the end of the selection instead ([[bugzilla:52460|bug 52460]]). Inserting a link, reference or media file will now put the cursor after the new content again ([[bugzilla:53560|bug 53560]]).

In the reference dialog, the 'Use existing reference' button is now disabled on pages which don't yet have a reference ([[bugzilla:51848|bug 51848]]). Newly-added references or reference groups no longer need the page to be saved before they can be re-used (bugs [[bugzilla:51689|51689]] and [[bugzilla:52000|52000]]). The template parameter filter in the transclusion dialog now searches both parameter name and label ([[bugzilla:51670|bug 51670]]).

We fixed a few errors with copy and paste; copying over nodes (like references or templates) no longer inserts additional newlines on paste ([[bugzilla:53364|bug 53364]]), and if you copied an item and then changed it, or pasted it and changed the copy, you would get the changed item (and not what you copied) on the next paste ([[bugzilla:52271|bug 52271]]). The names of languages listed in the "languages" (langlinks) panel in the Page settings dialog now display as RTL when appropriate ([[bugzilla:53503|bug 53503]]).

Finally, our Google Summer of Code students neared completion of their work. The Math and SyntaxHighlight extension editors have both made excellent process, and the team hosted in San Francisco [[User:Mooeypoo|Moriel Schottlender]], lead on the tool for setting text language details, for in-depth discussions of how we might improve the back-end to support the tool better.

A complete list of individual code commits is available [[mw:MediaWiki 1.22/wmf16/Changelog#VisualEditor|in the 1.22/wmf16 changelog]], and all Bugzilla bugs closed in this period are on [//bugzilla.wikimedia.org/buglist.cgi?bug_status=RESOLVED&bug_status=VERIFIED&bug_status=CLOSED&list_id=231572&product=VisualEditor&query_format=advanced&target_milestone=VE-deploy-2013-09-05&order=component Bugzilla's list].
</div>

Following the regular [[mw:MediaWiki 1.22/Roadmap|MediaWiki deployment roadmap]], this should be deployed here on '''Thursday 12 September'''. You can test it right now on [[mw:VisualEditor:Test|MediaWiki.org]] if you want to see what it will look like here.

Hope this is helpful! As always, feedback gratefully received, either here or on [[Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback|the enwiki-specific feedback page]].

[[User:Jdforrester (WMF)|Jdforrester (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Jdforrester (WMF)|talk]]) 00:46, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
== No. of pages linked in Wikidata ==

I'm interested see the number of languages a page is attached with, just to the right side of the Languages i.e: Languages (NNN) [[File:Farm-Fresh cog.png|20px]]. Am I alone to expect this?--[[User:MKar|Mrutyunjaya Kar]] ([[User talk:MKar|talk]]) 12:42, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
:yes, i think you are alone in wanting this. here's a quick and dirty hack that does that (add this cryptic fragment to [[Special:MyPage/common.js]]). should work at least in vector.
<syntaxhighlight lang=javascript>
$(function() {
    var label = $('h3#p-lang-label:first')
        , l = label.siblings().find('ul li[class|=interwiki]').length
        , a = label.find('a')
        , t = a.text();
    a.text(t + ' (' + l + ')');
});
</syntaxhighlight>
:peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 15:41, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
::Not working.--[[User:MKar|Mrutyunjaya Kar]] ([[User talk:MKar|talk]]) 01:30, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Works for me on vector. If you're using monobook, then use:
<syntaxhighlight lang="javascript">
$(function() {
    var label = $('#p-lang')
        , l = label.find('.pBody ul li[class|=interwiki]').length
        , a = label.find('h3')
        , t = a.text();
    a.text(t + ' (' + l + ')');
});
</syntaxhighlight>
:::However, use the one kipod gave if you use Vector. If this still doesn't work, please give your browser (and version) and which skin you use (Vector/Monobook/Cologne Blue). [[User:PiRSquared17|<b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr<sup>2</sup></b>]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">'''t'''</i>]] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">'''c'''</i>]]) 19:15, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:::{{ping|MKar}} P.S. if neither works, try replacing '''the first''' ''$('' with ''$(window).load(''. Do not change every $, however. Just the one at the beginning. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|contribs]]) 19:51, 6 September 2013</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
::::Thanks to both of you, I got my expected result after changing ''the first'' ''$('' with ''$(window).load(''. I am using Firefox 24.0 and Vector.--[[User:MKar|Mrutyunjaya Kar]] ([[User talk:MKar|talk]]) 02:13, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

== Lua-based cites could auto-link as https ==

: Note: ''Start discussion now, as extra warning in case of update''.
Because the Lua-based cites are so quick, there is ample speed to auto-relink all sources from the current hard-coded "http:" into protocol-relative format "//..." when a page is being formatted to store the cache version (or during edit-preview). There would be no need to edit the 2.1 million pages (2,050,000+) using the [[wp:CS1]] cites. This would allow even users with high-security browsers to keep all links within the [[https]]-protocol format and avoid security warnings of dropping down to http to view a source website. Before Lua, to trim hundreds (200+) of URL strings to omit "http:" was not feasible for large articles due to the 60-second timeout during edit-preview; however, the developers might have a plan to force all external links as protocol-relative unless they contain a special code-sequence in the URL, to keep "http:" for rare websites which do not handle https. Again, the current links use the hard-coded "http:" prefix to drop from secure-protocol when viewing most sources, perhaps casting a visible ''shadow'' around the source websites to help infer which articles are being read. I think the Lua-based cites could be upgraded during a few days to auto-relink as protocol-relative URLs, using Lua's rapid built-in substring feature to extract the URL at the "//..." portion (omitting "http*:"), with basically zero overhead in processing speed. The main issues are consensus, preparation and any side-effects. -[[User:Wikid77|Wikid77]] ([[User talk:Wikid77|talk]]) 07:06, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:: Hmmm, while we're at it, //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:PUMPTECH#Lua-based_cites_could_auto-link_as_https should appear as a link like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:PUMPTECH#Lua-based_cites_could_auto-link_as_https does, right?  (But indeed, [//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:PUMPTECH#Lua-based_cites_could_auto-link_as_https links like this] ''do'' work, which I hadn't even realized)  Can you say if any relevant older browsers would choke on the revised links?  (My feeling is that if a browser version is badly and permanently insecure we can write it off...) [[User:Wnt|Wnt]] ([[User talk:Wnt|talk]]) 08:10, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

:Strong oppose to creating millions of unchecked links. A sample of five websites I frequently visit gave four failures on https. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 08:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:: Okay, thanks for checking so quickly. Busy elsewhere, but I suspected perhaps many websites dislike https, after someone noted [[Google Translate]] was not allowing https-protocol for full-webpage translations. -[[User:Wikid77|Wikid77]] ([[User talk:Wikid77|talk]]) 09:09, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:::There have been suggestions to alter pages which generate many external links - such as [[Template:GeoTemplate]] and [[Wikipedia:Book sources]] - to use protocol-relative links throughout. It doesn't take long to find some that only work as http: We can't assume that since one link to a website works with either protocol, links to elsewhere within the same website will necessarily work in similar fashion. There are some websites where the front end and some subpages work with either protocol, but which contain some subpages where only https: can be used. Since it can't be done on a per-website basis, each case must be tested before being amended. For instance, before removing several instances of http: in {{diff|Template:GeoTemplate|prev|571671775|this edit}}, I carefully checked each one to make sure that it worked with both http: and https: --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 11:32, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:While I'm sympathetic to the idea, this strikes me as something which properly should be implemented at the user's browser.  The browser ''ought'' to be able to, by default, check if there's an https possibility and prefer that link.  This would solve the problem all over the internet rather than just on Wikipedia.  My attitude on this follows my opinion regarding potentially seizure-inducing gifs or videos, in which I think it makes more sense for those affected to come up with a browser check rather than asking Wikipedia and every other site on the web to avoid potentially dangerous image links - but of course, that is much more serious than this is! [[User:Wnt|Wnt]] ([[User talk:Wnt|talk]]) 18:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

== I shared a software idea at the idea lab ==

But I'd like to alert those with coding abilities (and particularly those with an interest in supporting WikiProjects) to see it over [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)#Attractive "inventory" pages for all WikiProjects, showing the backlogs, similar to a wikiHow feature|here]]. Thanks. [[User:Biosthmors|Biosthmors]] ([[User talk:Biosthmors|talk]]) 10:21, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

== Possible change password prompt error ==

So I tried changing my password today and this is the message I got "''You have made too many recent login attempts. Please wait '''<big>$1</big>''' before trying again.''" Also, here's a [http://imgur.com/bSJzkAq screenshot] of it. Anyone know why it says to wait 1 dollar? —<span style="font-family: Verdana"><span style="border:1px solid;border-radius:1.7em 0"><span style="background:#000;border-radius:1.5em 0 0"> -[[User:Dainomite|<span style="color: #FFF">dain</span>]]</span>[[User:Dainomite/t|<span style="color: #000">omite</span>]] &nbsp;</span></span> 16:47, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
: Maybe this is Jimbo sneakily asking you for a donation. <span class="signature">[[User:Kephir|Keφr]]</span> 16:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
::Possibly {{smiley|tongue}} —<span style="font-family: Verdana"><span style="border:1px solid;border-radius:1.7em 0"><span style="background:#000;border-radius:1.5em 0 0"> -[[User:Dainomite|<span style="color: #FFF">dain</span>]]</span>[[User:Dainomite/t|<span style="color: #000">omite</span>]] &nbsp;</span></span> 17:03, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:{{ping|Okeyes (WMF)}} do you know who would be the one to fix this? —<span style="font-family: Verdana"><span style="border:1px solid;border-radius:1.7em 0"><span style="background:#000;border-radius:1.5em 0 0"> -[[User:Dainomite|<span style="color: #FFF">dain</span>]]</span>[[User:Dainomite/t|<span style="color: #000">omite</span>]] &nbsp;</span></span> 17:03, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
::It says "wait '''<big>$1</big>'''" because [[Time Is Money]]. Well-known fact. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 17:12, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:::That would be hilarious if WMF was like "Pay 1 dollar to change your password!" hehe —<span style="font-family: Verdana"><span style="border:1px solid;border-radius:1.7em 0"><span style="background:#000;border-radius:1.5em 0 0"> -[[User:Dainomite|<span style="color: #FFF">dain</span>]]</span>[[User:Dainomite/t|<span style="color: #000">omite</span>]] &nbsp;</span></span> 17:23, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
: The $1 is the period of time before you can try again. Looks like the info wasn't sent to the message properly :) <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">19:00, 6 September 2013 (UTC)</em>
::{{ping|^demon}} Gotcha, thank you. Did I just find a bug or something else that's really minor? —<span style="font-family: Verdana"><span style="border:1px solid;border-radius:1.7em 0"><span style="background:#000;border-radius:1.5em 0 0"> -[[User:Dainomite|<span style="color: #FFF">dain</span>]]</span>[[User:Dainomite/t|<span style="color: #000">omite</span>]] &nbsp;</span></span> 19:15, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:::[[MediaWiki:Login-throttled]] expects a parameter it didn't get for you for some reason. I just tried logging into an alternate account a bunch of times with a wrong password. I got "Login error You have made too many recent login attempts. Please wait 5 minutes before trying again." So the parameter was passed as "5 minutes" for me. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 19:27, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:::I have now tried [[Special:ChangePassword]] like you did. There I got the same as you after entering a wrong old password a bunch of times: "You have made too many recent login attempts. Please wait $1 before trying again." I was already logged in so the "login attempts" message at [[MediaWiki:Login-throttled]] seems inappropriate for [[Special:ChangePassword]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 19:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
::::You should check [[bugzilla:|Bugzilla]]. If no bug exists, please file one. Especially if this occurs on other wikis too! And, BTW, maybe a separate message (other than login-throttled) should be used here. I didn't see any obvious problem when I compared SpecialUserlogin's login-throttled message code to SpecialChangePassword's, so I'll leave this one to the MediaWiki PHP-wizards. Maybe related to [https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/78649/ this change in gerrit] or [https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/79784/ this one] and [[bugzilla:46965|this bug]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|<b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr<sup>2</sup></b>]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">'''t'''</i>]] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">'''c'''</i>]]) 20:09, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::My quick search in Bugzilla didn't turn up anything, but I'm not sure that it's possible to get search results for "$1".  [[User:Brion VIBBER]] will know much more about this than I do.  [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 21:20, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::[https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/buglist.cgi?title=Special%3ASearch&quicksearch=%241 It's possible]. However, you should also try searching for "login-throttled", "ChangePassword", etc. {{ping|PrimeHunter}} re "login-throttled seems inappropriate" - this is [[bugzilla:53655]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|<b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr<sup>2</sup></b>]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">'''t'''</i>]] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">'''c'''</i>]]) 21:48, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

== Last diffs lk on an edit history page mislinked ==

The default history page [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wolfhound&dir=prev&offset=20080619232606&action=history] for "Wolfhound: Revision history" lks, next to last revn on page, to
[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wolfhound&diff=571756292&oldid=220467466 ...&diff=571756292&oldid=220467466] as compare-to-current
and to
[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wolfhound&diff=220467466&oldid=prev ...w/index.php?title=Wolfhound&diff=220467466&oldid=prev]
as compare-to-revn-previous-to-this-line's-revn
as i think i should expect.
But hovering the two lks shows respectively
:New revision    2013-09-06 09:08:22
:Old revision    2008-06-20 00:25:42
for "cur: as i expect but
:New revision    2008-06-20 00:25:42
:Old revision    2013-09-06 09:08:22
for "prev" which is, uh..., absurd. The diffs seem indeed to show simply reversal of which page has the "old" or "new" label.

Shutting down for complete reboot, to see if this is repeatable.<br/>--[[User:Jerzy|Jerzy]]•[[User talk:Jerzy|t]] 23:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)<br>
OK, it really happened once. But i live by the watchword that if it only happens once, it didn't really happen, from a software maintenance point of view: case closed, AFAIK.<br>--[[User:Jerzy|Jerzy]]•[[User talk:Jerzy|t]] 00:21, 7 September 2013 (UTC)<br>
== Wikiwix ==

I just added some references to an article on French Wikipedia and it seems like a script automatically created a cache of each webpage I used on a site called wikiwix.com and then added a link to the cache in the footnotes for the references. I was not expecting this. Does anyone know anything about wikiwix and whether we can get it here?

The cached versions lose some of the formatting, but so what? Here is an example: [http://archive.wikiwix.com/cache/?url=http://www.novembre-architecture.com/detail-projet/projet-centquatre-centre-de-creation-artistique-paris-19-1.html&title=CENTQUATRE%2C%20CENTRE%20DE%20CR%C3%89ATION%20ARTISTIQUE]. [[User:FormerIP|Formerip]] ([[User talk:FormerIP|talk]]) 00:33, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:See [[:fr:Utilisateur:Pmartin/Wikiwix]] (in French) and [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Archived citations|RfC]], [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Archived citations 2|RfC 2]]. You can ask [[User:Pmartin]] for more information. [http://techcrunch.com/2007/05/19/the-mysterious-wikiwix/] [[User:PiRSquared17|<b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr<sup>2</sup></b>]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">'''t'''</i>]] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">'''c'''</i>]]) 01:48, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

== Bot request relating to accessibility issues ==

I've recently done a write-up about accessibility problems on Wikipedia in the [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2013-09-04/Technology report|Signpost's tech report]], and flowing from that, I've started a [[Wikipedia:Bot requests/Archive 56#Accessibility bot|bot request discussion to fix some accessibility issues that I noted in the write-up]]. Any comments at the bot request discussion would be appreciated. '''[[User:Graham87|Graham]]'''[[User talk:Graham87|<span style="color:green;">87</span>]] 05:15, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
== Help Needed: Problems due to Secure site change ==

As other editors have [[#Secure site only?|already made note of]], the change-over to Secure URLs is causing problems for a lot of us. I've [[#Who is in charge|already explained above]] how upsetting it was to have my Wikipedia browsing history suddenly disappear. I mistakenly thought that unchecking the setting in my preferences had taken care of the problem. Not So. It turns out that when I specify one of the normal/non-secure Wikipedia URLs, the software no longer recognizes me as a logged-in user -- iow, the pages display as they do for any anon. IP user (and as I discovered by accident, my IP address shows up in the edit history, as one would expect). But as soon as I go to a secure URL, everything goes back to normal -- and that's without having to log in again; iow, it keeps me logged in, as it should. But those secure pages don't show up in my browser history, no matter what I do. Yes, I've changed & re-changed my preference setting and logged back in several times. And I've also looked for the trouble-making cookies that were mentioned above -- but curiously, I don't seem to have ANY cookies for Wikipedia, even though it is one of the few sites where I expressly allow them by default. <sigh> Any help on this would be hugely appreciated! [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 08:34, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::You don't actually say - either here or at {{diff|Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)|prev|570904030|your previous post}} - which browser you're using. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 09:56, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:Ah, I was wondering  why when I  open a new browser window it shows me as not  logged in. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 09:54, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

:Well, if anyone is interested, I am  using  Ffox 23.0.1 on  MacOS 10.8.4. Looks as if the default  move to  https has thrown more than one spanner in  the works. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 10:36, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::I too am using Firefox, although under Windows XP. Here's how I successfully went back to http:
::#Go to {{myprefs}}, switch off "{{MediaWiki:tog-prefershttps}}" and save
::#Log out of Wikipedia and close all browser tabs that contain Wikipedia pages - but keep the browser itself open
::#In the browser menu bar, go to Tools → Options → Privacy
::#Click the link "remove individual cookies", this opens a new window titled "Cookies" - maximise that, it makes things easier
::#In the search bar of "Cookies", enter <kbd>forceHTTPS</kbd> exactly like that - it's case-sensitive
::#Highlight a row and click {{button|Remove Cookie}} (the {{keypress|Delete}} key works on a PC, don't know about a Mac)
::#Repeat until all are gone, then click {{button|Close}}
::#Visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ and log in
::You should now be back on http: --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 10:50, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Thanks for your detailed reply, Redrose64. Hopefully that will be very helpful for any Firefox users who find their way to this page. Unfortunately it doesn't help me, perhaps because I am using IE8 (although they are very similar). I had already tried to find those cookies (they were also mentioned above), but as I noted, I was unable to turn up ANY cookies at all for Wikipedia among the cookies listed in my TIF folder. Very puzzling, to say the least. [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 12:52, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::::Try looking in your Cookies folder. I don't quite understand why, but Internet Explorer's cookies can be found in both "Temporary Internet Files" and "Cookies". –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 20:28, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::@Redrose64: I took your explanations and put them on Meta, with a small variation since I didn’t find the first steps on my Firefox 20 (on Ubuntu); I guess the menus changed in the newer versions (?).
:: This step about cookies is the [[:bugzilla:53536|bug 53536]]. ~ [[User:Seb35|Seb35]] [[User talk:Seb35|<small>[^_^]</small>]] [[:fr:User talk:Seb35|[fr]]] 09:43, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
*'''New Wrinkle''' - For a time, I was able to move from page to page in the ''non-secure'' universe, and at least ''those'' pages would show up in my browser history. But something seems to have changed. Now I cannot access ANY non-secure pages -- even when I specify "http" in the address bar of my browser, it just redirects to "httpS", regardless of whether I am logged IN or logged OUT. I think I may be starting to lose my mind. [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 13:18, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
**What kind of windows edition do you use  ? It seems that IE in the Windows server and possible professional editions seem to not store anything by default if the user is using https. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 15:18, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
***I'm using Windows 7. What's crazy about all of this is that unchecking the new default setting in preferences seems to have no effect whatsoever. To repeat, yes I've logged out and back in multiple times, and the setting remains unchecked. I've also looked and ''searched'' for those problem cookies, but cannot locate them, if they're even there at all. And I've never seen a Cookies folder, either. Please keep thinking about this -- your efforts are ''greatly'' appreciated! [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 01:36, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::::Update: I can now see my Cookies Folder. It took some doing -- no thanks to Microsoft! -- to find out how to get that folder to display. (It requires un-checking the default setting that hides all "protected operating system files".) Unfortunately, the only Wiki cookies I found were quite innocuous. No sign of those problem cookies that force the browser to use https. So I'm right back where I started: '''Still no way to get my browser to display non-secure pages -- and still no browser history for Wikipedia'''. :( [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 03:12, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::I restarted my old WinXP with Internet Explorer 8 to see how it works. With Windows XP it appears cookies are saved by website (e.g. en.wikipedia); they are in my computer (perhaps different in newer Windows versions) in "C:\Documents and Settings\MyWinLogin\Local Settings\Temporary Internet Files" and each cookie is a text file "cookie:MyWinLogin@website.com". Importantly you don’t see here the names of each cookie, only the name of the websites.
:::::So in your case you (probably) have to delete the cookies corresponding to all Wikimedia projects, i.e. the files containing en.wikipedia.org, en.wikiversity.org, etc. and wikipedia.org, wikiversity.org, etc. and then restart Internet Explorer. I guess this will solve your problem: you should be able to log-in with HTTP (this non-intuitive behaviour will be solved with bug 53536).
:::::Alternatively, you can [http://support.microsoft.com/kb/278835/en delete all your cookies] (including those corresponding to login on other websites) and restart Internet Explorer; this is easier although it deletes cookies of all websites. ~ [[User:Seb35|Seb35]] [[User talk:Seb35|<small>[^_^]</small>]] [[:fr:User talk:Seb35|[fr]]] 10:41, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::Thanks for having a go at it, Seb35. Unfortunately, as I said, the Wiki cookies that I finally found really were quite innocuous. I opened both of them as text files, and they were generated by my login or logout from Wikipedia. So I am quite sure that the problem lies elsewhere. FYI, there are 2 separate folders for cookies: some of them are in the TIF folder, while the others are "hidden" in the Cookies folder, which only became visible when I un-checked the setting as I described above. :( [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 12:50, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:{{od|:::::}}I'm sorry I didn't mention that the Cookies folder is hidden. It's been a while since I've been digging around IE's files. I normally have my preferences set to show hidden files anyway, so the fact that something's hidden often slips my mind. –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 21:47, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

== Excessive caching? ==

I've been seeing ''lots'' of reports (far more than normal) lately at WP:AN/WP:ANI from people who were given cached versions of pages with vandalism that was reverted well before the reporters loaded their pages.  It just happened to me for the first time since I started editing in 2006; I got [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?oldid=571162717 this version] of [[Australian rules football]] about half an hour after it was reverted.  Have our caching settings changed?  Is it something with MediaWiki that we could fix?  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 02:46, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:It's hard to tell what might have caused this. Were you logged in, or logged out ? Did you perhaps visit over http while being logged in over https? Another problem we often see are geographic differences between people, where some get an old cached versions and others a new one. Try determining such differences, it helps giving direction to the search. Caching has little to do with MediaWiki btw. It is an infrastructure that is signaled by MediaWiki, but is otherwise completely separate from it. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 07:10, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::I was logged in and visited over HTTPS.  What do you mean by "it helps giving direction to the search"?  Unfortunately, I can't parse the sentence.  I could go back through recent WP:AN archives and pull up a few examples, if that's what you want.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 13:47, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:::I meant that having lots of information helps in the search for the root cause of the problem, because breakages like these are usually just the visible effects of much more complicated problems that are often quite specific to a distinct situation. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 17:39, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

::::I saw this version [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Firefighter&oldid=570558277] of [[Firefighter]] a good five hours after ClueBot had reverted it.  I was alerted to the problem by someone browsing Wikipedia while logged out, so whatever it is affects both logged in and logged out viewing.  I will note that ClueBot's reversion was almost instantaneous (taking less than a minute), so it may be we are looking at some sort of race condition associated with edits that occur very close together in time.  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] ([[User talk:Dragons flight|talk]]) 20:59, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::[[bugzilla:46014]] possibly? [[Special:Contributions/129.173.209.3|129.173.209.3]] ([[User talk:129.173.209.3|talk]]) 12:49, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

:There's another example at [[Wikipedia:Help desk#United States Environmental Protection Agency]]. An IP from Sweden saw a bad version several hours after a Cluebot revert. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 10:05, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

== Undoing a page move ==

Dear technical people:  A couple of days ago I tried to move a page from [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Koso Kent Introl Limited (KKI)]] to [[Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Koso Kent Introl Limited (KKI)]]. Somehow, I missed and accidentally managed to move the page to Portal space.  I figured that I would just move it again, but my destination page already existed, so the page move failed.  So far this is as expected.  

Next I did something that ended up causing a problem:  I tried to move the article back where it came from by clicking on the history and selecting (undo) next to the page move item.  I wasn't sure if it would work, but the undo software displayed a message stating that it could be undone, and I took this as a positive and pressed the save button.  

What happened next was really strange.  Instead of undoing the page move, the software now changed the [[Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Koso Kent Introl Limited (KKI)]] article (which I had never edited at all) to a redirect to the article in Portal space. Now two articles had been apparently moved into one!  With the help of an administrator everything was put back in it's appropriate place. (These articles have all been deleted now, so I guess someone decided they weren't useful.)

Here's my question:  Is it possible to undo a page move with the (undo) in the article's history?  If not, could the (undo) function be modified not to say that the edit can be undone when someone tries?  I won't do it again in any case, but someone else may.  &mdash;[[User:Anne Delong|Anne Delong]] ([[User talk:Anne Delong|talk]]) 15:41, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

:The redirect from Wikipedia Talk:X to Portal Talk:X came about when you accidentally moved the page to PT:X, ''not'' when you tried to undo the move with the "undo" button. [[Wikipedia:PAGEMOVE#Undoing a move]] says that the "undo" button doesn't undo page moves.  You are right to say that clicking "undo" next to a page move event in the history brings up [[MediaWiki:Undo-success]] which doesn't have a warning that page moves can't be undone.  I don't know whether it's possible to detect attempts to reverse page moves with "undo" and bring up a different warning instead, or (better yet) block the attempt.  Alternatively, the default success message could be changed to add a warning that attempts to reverse a move using "undo" won't work, but is that unnecessary when the vast majority of uses of "undo" aren't trying to reverse a page move? [[User:Bencherlite|Bencherlite]][[User talk:Bencherlite|<i><sup>Talk</sup></i>]] 16:00, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
::I agree that it would be annoying for thousands of people to have to read an unnecessary warning.  It would only be useful if the software could detect that the requested undo was a page move, and warn that it won't work.  However, what actually happens if one tries to undo a page move?  If nothing, then there's probably no urgency for this. Thanks for taking time to explain. &mdash;[[User:Anne Delong|Anne Delong]] ([[User talk:Anne Delong|talk]]) 17:58, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
:::If you make a page move in error, a move back to the previous title is always possible. You use the "move" tab (Monobook) or "Move" menu item (Vector) as you would for a normal page move. However, before doing so, you need to make sure that your browser is holding the current article, not a cached one from before the move (use e.g. {{keypress|F5}} in Firefox); and that you're on the article itself, not the new redirect (click the "Article" tab). --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 18:46, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
:::You are correct that trying to undo a move using the "undo" link has very little effect; it doesn't even show in the page history. Technically, it's the same as a [[WP:NULL#WP:NULL|null edit]]. –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 22:57, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

== Username filter ==

Today I saw an account with the username "[[Niggerhater678]]". The account was, of course, blocked, but not before it got to vandalize TFA. We have a filter in place to prevent articles with similar titles from being created without administrative approval. Couldn't we do the same for account names? [[User:Joefromrandb|Joefromrandb]] ([[User talk:Joefromrandb|talk]]) 01:21, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:We already have a filter for bad usernames: [[MediaWiki:Titleblacklist]] can do this. And the AbuseFilter. [[User:PiRSquared17|<b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr<sup>2</sup></b>]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">'''t'''</i>]] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">'''c'''</i>]]) 01:42, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
::So "nigger" isn't blacklisted? [[User:Joefromrandb|Joefromrandb]] ([[User talk:Joefromrandb|talk]]) 01:43, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:::It is. I'm not sure why the account was created. As far as I can tell, this user does not exist. It has no contributions or global account. Can you give a link to a log involving this user? Are you sure it was on the English Wikipedia? [[User:PiRSquared17|<b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr<sup>2</sup></b>]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">'''t'''</i>]] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">'''c'''</i>]]) 01:50, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
::::I misread it. It was actually "[[Nigggerhater678]]". He vandalized [[Roger Waters]] and was blocked by [[User:John|John]]. [[User:Joefromrandb|Joefromrandb]] ([[User talk:Joefromrandb|talk]]) 02:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::The [[regular expression]] could be modified to match variations, or an abusefilter could be created to do the same thing, but a determined individual will find some variation not in the blacklist. In these cases, it might be better to just block and move on. Regards, [[User:PiRSquared17|<b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr<sup>2</sup></b>]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">'''t'''</i>]] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">'''c'''</i>]]) 02:44, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::See [[WP:RBI]] and [[WP:BEANS]].  — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]]  [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 16:26, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::[[WP:BEANS]] would apply if I had proposed to warn new users to not attempt various spellings of swear words to circumvent the filter. I did not. I proposed modifying the filter to catch this problem. As to [[WP:RBI]], this solution would make both the "R" and the "B" unnecessary. Hence there would be no need to "I" an issue that wouldn't exist. [[User:Joefromrandb|Joefromrandb]] ([[User talk:Joefromrandb|talk]]) 00:20, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
:I think [//en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=572001701&oldid=571818686] will work. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 03:02, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

== The page Help:Substitution ==

So I'm not entirely sure this is the place to come <small>(feel free to [[WP:TROUT|trout]] me and send me in the right direction if this isn't the place to ask)</small>, but could someone possessing both the technical knowledge of the ins and outs of substitution and the ability to dumb said knowledge down head over to [[Help:Substitution]] and simplify the language? I've been here for ''years'' (and I've been editing templates for most of those years), and parts of this page are completely indecipherable to me. Everything's hunky dory until the [[H:SUBST#Technical implementation|section titled "Technical implementation"]], where it starts to get a little murky. I can understand the main body of that section after reading it through a few times, but the way it's worded could be confusing to a newbie. I'd reword it myself, but I'm not entirely sure how to go about it. The subsection of that section, which is about safesubst: goes completely over my head. I'm pretty sure this is a wording issue, and is not due to a lack of clue on my part. <small>(Though, hey, I could be wrong!)</small> The section titled "Recursive substitution" could do with an explanation of the concept/definition of recursive substitution; as is, it just starts by saying that substitution isn't recursive. Not much help to a newbie. 

I know the normal place to post about this is the page's talkpage, but it's pretty inactive, so I figured I'd have more luck over here. Again, I'm probably in the wrong place. Let me know if there's anywhere else I could go to ask about this. Cheers, <small>— Preceding <span style="color:#0645AD;">''signed''</span> comment added by [[User:Cymru.lass|Cymru.lass]] ([[User talk:Cymru.lass|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Cymru.lass|contribs]])</small> 14:54, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:I'd suggest starting a thread at [[Help talk:Substitution]] but [//en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Help_talk:Substitution&action=info#mw-pageinfo-watchers it's got less than 30 watchers] (and I'm one of them). But there's no harm in doing that, so long as [[WP:MULTI|discussion is kept in one place]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 15:50, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
::{{ping|Redrose64}}My initial thought was to post on [[Help talk:Substitution]], but this issue has been brought up a couple times on the talk page with no luck, even after 2 years. <small>— Preceding <span style="color:#0645AD;">''signed''</span> comment added by [[User:Cymru.lass|Cymru.lass]] ([[User talk:Cymru.lass|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Cymru.lass|contribs]])</small> 16:34, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:::<small>(long rant that does not help much - only read if you are bored)</small>
::: there is a saying, often misatributed to [[Albert Einstein]]: '''"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"'''. one would think this is a prime example, but in this case the problem is not (or not only) that the people who wrote the help page did not understand the feature, but rather, the people who created the feature (and "the feature" here is all of WP templating system, not just the "subst:" and it's stray sister "safesubst") did not have a clear and concise picture of what is the best way to implement templating. 
:::don't get me wrong - this is a difficult problem, and i am not saying i would have done a better job, but it's widely agreed that the templating part of wikicode is one sick puppy.
:::this is why we had to add the extensions "parserfunctions", "expandtemplates" and lately "scribunto", and this is why many of the templates on enwiki have code that can cause anyone who stares at it for too long to go blind. 
:::it is possible that there is a problem in the help page, but it's much more probable that the problem is that the thing this help page tries to explain are just complicated beyond repair. the need to be backward compatible prevents us from replacing the templating system with something better. 
:::unfortunately, i don't think scribunto is the answer either: scribunto gives way too much power to amateur programmers, which inevitable results in complicated code that does simple things (to quote [[The Zen of Python]]: '''"Simple is better than complex"; "Complex is better than complicated"'''). peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 19:12, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
== [[User:VeblenBot/C/GAR/56]] ==

This archive page is not displaying all archived Good Article Reassessments very well. In fact, 50 percent is displayed, and the rest... are just templates or something like that? I tried discussing this to bot operator, but he is busy at this moment and will be back on November. Also, I tried in [[WP:AN]], but the message I left will be archived in hours soon because almost no one responded there except me and bot operator. I'm hoping a fixture. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 05:18, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:This page is running into the [[WP:Template limits|template limits]], specifically the [[Wikipedia:Template_limits#Post-expand_include_size|Post expand include size]]-limit. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 10:02, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:[[User:VeblenBot/C/GAR/56|Archive 56]] is getting too large. It contains 45 items spanning ten months. [[User:VeblenBot/C/GAR/55|Archive 55]] contains just 14 items over three months. I think it's time to start a new archive and move some stuff from the current archive into the new one. I'm not too sure how this archive system works. I notice [[User:Aircorn]] was the last person to update the archive number in [[Template:GARarchive]], so I've asked them to comment here. –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 14:14, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
::Sorry, this is a busy time of the year for me and I have overlooked maintaining the archives. For reference some instructions on what needs doing are at [[Wikipedia talk:Good article reassessment/Maintenance]]. I will go through now and update everything. [[User:Aircorn|AIR<span style="color:green;">'''''corn'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Aircorn|(talk)]] 22:27, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

== Thank you for template transclusion previews ==

I'm not sure how long it's been around for, who's responsible for it, or where it may have been requested or discussed, but I just noticed the template transclusion preview feature and I'd like to thank any and all who made that happen. I've been wishing for a feature like that for some time and this is a nice solution. For anyone interested, I made a script to add the feature to any namespace page, as transclusions often occur outside Template space: [[User:Equazcion/UniversalTransclusionPreviews]]. <span style="font-family: Century Gothic; text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #999;font-size:12px">'''[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#008;">Equazcion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</small>''' 18:57, 7 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
:i think this is part of [[mw:Extension:TemplateSandbox]], that was introduced less than a year ago, and which also brings us the [[Special:TemplateSandbox]] page (even stronger version than the preview, because it allows you to test changes to several templates at once, something that is sometimes needed when using sub-templates). peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 19:16, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
: You wanna thank [[User:Anomie|Brad]] :) [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 19:20, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:: Thanks [[User:Anomie|Brad]] :) I can't quite fathom how the sandbox page works from the description (it could use some linked documentation) but it looks interesting. <span style="font-family: Century Gothic; text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #999;font-size:12px">'''[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#008;">Equazcion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</small>''' 19:32, 7 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
::: You're welcome! [[User:BJorsch (WMF)|BJorsch (WMF)]] ([[User talk:BJorsch (WMF)|talk]]) 14:12, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

* '''Example with Special:TemplateSandbox:''' For example, to test your own version of protected page [[Template:Cite_web]], then create a page as "User:Equazcion/sandbox/Template:Cite_web" and run a [[Special:TemplateSandbox]] to preview any page using {cite_web}, or else enter whatever wikitext, with any pagename as filler (such as: WW, revision: 565418025), and the wikitext will override the display of page "[[WW]]" and only format that text with the templates under the name prefix "User:Equazcion/sandbox/". Otherwise, protected templates cannot be edited by normal users to run-preview the changes. Only Special:TemplateSandbox allows a run-preview for altering protected templates. -[[User:Wikid77|Wikid77]] ([[User talk:Wikid77|talk]]) 05:21, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
**Ah ok, I think I get it. Thanks for the explanation :) The page could really use some additional explanation. Maybe I'll write something up and propose it. <span style="font-family: Century Gothic; text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #999;font-size:12px">'''[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#008;">Equazcion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</small>''' 06:57, 8 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
*** Please do! There's a start at some documentation at [[mw:Help:Extension:TemplateSandbox]], but it could probably use much improvement. [[User:BJorsch (WMF)|BJorsch (WMF)]] ([[User talk:BJorsch (WMF)|talk]]) 14:12, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::also, please note that the same "TemplateSandbox" can (and should) be used to test changes in Lua modules, not just templates. peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 17:31, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

{{ping|BJorsch (WMF)}} I put together a little something at [[User:Equazcion/sandbox]] that I think might make the page more intuitive. My vote is to use the top line as a replacement for everything currently above the form, and add the collapsed help section below the form. It's collapsed so that when the preview shows up it isn't pushed down too much on the page. <span style="font-family: Century Gothic; text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #999;font-size:12px">'''[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#008;">Equazcion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</small>''' 21:30, 8 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>

== JS editing interface changes ==

I've just discovered that sometime in the last couple of weeks (since 28/8), the interface for editing .js pages (eg [[MediaWiki:Geonotice.js]] has switched from a "normal" edit window to a blue-tinted one with line numbering and a smaller, lighter-weight font. I can see the benefit for many use cases, but I personally find this distracting - any idea how to suppress it and return to the normal editor?

I'm using Chromium 28.0.1500.71 on Ubuntu 13.04, for what it's worth. (Note that this is not the same as the font discussion a few threads above - it's specific to .js pages, and does not involve a non-monospaced font) [[User:Andrew Gray|Andrew Gray]] ([[User talk:Andrew Gray|talk]]) 14:41, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
:The leftmost button on the upper toolbar switches back to the regular edit box. I believe the setting is saved from edit to edit. <span style="font-family: Century Gothic; text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #999;font-size:12px">'''[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#008;">Equazcion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</small>''' 14:46, 8 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>

::Got it. I was skimming the toolbars but I think assumed anything new would appear at the right, not left - thanks! [[User:Andrew Gray|Andrew Gray]] ([[User talk:Andrew Gray|talk]]) 14:52, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

:::The button graphic makes it look like a tool to insert js comments, which is why at first I didn't notice it either. You're welcome :) <span style="font-family: Century Gothic; text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #999;font-size:12px">'''[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#008;">Equazcion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</small>''' 14:55, 8 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
* [[mw:Extension:CodeEditor|Extension:CodeEditor]] is where you can find the skimpy documentation on this new extension.  You can file bug reports and feature requests (like a way to disable) on [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=MediaWiki+extensions&component=CodeEditor <u>Bugzilla</u> under <u>MediaWiki Extensions</u> as component <u>CodeEditor</u>] [[User:Technical 13|Technical 13]] ([[User talk:Technical 13|talk]]) 15:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
::i love the ACE editor for code (both js and lua) and CSS, and i've been using it for years (by using a small snippet i copied from Brion's personal script page).
::the only known "defect" is that it is not possible anymore to dit .js pages using the "old" toolbar: even if you check "Enable enhanced editing toolbar" off, js and css pages will show now the enhanced toolbar. personally i do not miss it one iota, but some people might (note that the old toolbar doesn't give you any value whatsoever on js and css pages. on the "enhanced" toolbar you can at least get some value from the search/replace tool). peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 17:40, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

== Nastaliq template broken? ==

Is the Nastaliq template broken? When I tried to load pages using it, I saw a flash of Nastaliq script and then it changed to the browser's "sans serif" font for Arabic. I looked at the HTML source and the template was fine there, but when I opened it in Firefox's Inspect Element the markup was rendered &lt;span title="Nasta'liq" style="font-size: 125%; font-family: sans-serif;" xml:lang="und-Arab" lang="und-Arab"&gt;(contents)&lt;/span&gt;. This problem manifested in FF 24 beta, IE10, and Chrome 30 beta. [[Special:Contributions/140.182.204.229|140.182.204.229]] ([[User talk:140.182.204.229|talk]]) 17:27, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
:This may be related to [[Template talk:Script/Nastaliq#Edit request on 6 September 2013]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:29, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
== Who is in charge ==

Yes, I'm venting, but does anyone in charge know what they are doing?  The facts say no. The change to switch all links to https has broken the browser history for many of us.  I guess the super smart technical decision makers don't use the browser history.  For those of us who do, this is again another one of a series of stupid changes for the sole purpose of making it difficult for editors to use Wikipedia. [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] ([[User talk:Vegaswikian|talk]]) 00:32, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:: '''Uncheck "[_] Always use a secure connection when logged in"''' inside [[Special:Preferences]] (which was also broken/unbroken last week). Working with volunteers, with no certification of abilities, can be frustrating. Think: "software duhvelopment" or "you get what you pay for". The best idea has been an enduser "union of Wikipedians" to pre-screen planned changes (and recommend, "Hell no!"). I am thinking essay, "[[wp:Beware user-interfere changes]]" to alert users to impending doom, and list prior upgrade disasters as for how to avoid catastrophic changes (losing large edits in VE, or 1-hour delay to edit) and where to go for emergency help. Numerous people have mentioned the word "firing" but working within a volunteer organization requires more-complex protections from their antics. -[[User:Wikid77|Wikid77]] ([[User talk:Wikid77|talk]]) 14:07, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
: If you really want to use the insecure site you can set the option in your preferences. As for who is in charge of this project: it was a joint effort by members of both operations and core MediaWiki developers (myself among them). I'm sorry that your browser doesn't store history when browsing secure sites, but really out of the many many things we worked on to get this right for as many people as possible browser history was the least of our concerns. <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">01:20, 29 August 2013 (UTC)</em>

:You can read about the reasonings/motivations that made HTTPS the defealt on the [http://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/08/01/future-https-wikimedia-projects/ Wikimedia blog entry for it]. The change was necessary to protect users' privacy. While it may be a temporary inconvience to you, worries about browser history as pretty minor objections. [[User:Jason Quinn|Jason Quinn]] ([[User talk:Jason Quinn|talk]]) 01:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::That's the problem, you folks don't know what you are doing or talking about.  My browser does remember secure site URLs.  It does not remember when YOU change my account from normal access to secure access!  I did not change anything. I had my preferences set up the way I wanted them.  You changed them not me. [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] ([[User talk:Vegaswikian|talk]]) 01:39, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::The change has nothing to do with me. I didn't ''do'' anything so please be keep the conversation [[WP:CIVIL|civil]] and cool down. I posted a link with some info where you could read more. You haven't even really explained your problem in detail. You started by claiming the change "broken the browser history". From my perspective, that's acceptable collateral damage in exchange for providing more secure editing. This was something of an emergency event and necessitated big quick, responsive change. Luckily, HTTPS access had been under research for a while by the WMF. It's perfectly acceptable to try to convince me and others otherwise but type-shouting isn't a substitute for a convincing argument. [[User:Jason Quinn|Jason Quinn]] ([[User talk:Jason Quinn|talk]]) 19:34, 29 August 2013 (UTC) 
::::Jason, are we living on the same planet? "acceptable collateral damage in exchange for providing more secure editing"? Are you serious? I want to use https when I check my bank account. But editing WP really, ''really'', ''REALLY'' doesn't figure anywhere in my online safety concerns. The NSA and anybody else who wants to are free to look at my editing behavior if they want to waste time. I  really, ''really'', ''REALLY'' detest the paternalistic attitude of "we do this for your own good". I'm an adult. Please, let me decide for myself what's good for me or not. You can ''adivice'' me, but if you start making decisions for me for my own good, then you're in for a fight. --[[User:Randykitty|Randykitty]] ([[User talk:Randykitty|talk]]) 20:01, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::The WMF has a responsibility to ensure privacy of its editors and readers. End of story. With the NSA scandal, it became clear that a move to HTTPS was necessary to provide this. The vast majority of users no idea about the technical aspects of online privacy (how to use HTTPS and so forth). This does not dismiss the WMF's obligation to their privacy but enhances it. Maybe privacy doesn't enter into ''your'' editing concerns <s>is fine</s> but that doesn't mean the move to default HTTPS was wrong. The WMF must act in a way that provides the best service to ''all'' its users within its means. As for the "planet we live on", it is already known through the leaks that the NSA '''was''' watching Wikipedia editors. I don't know if you were aware of that. Plus, this gathered data is almost certainly being factored into now-known programs like Xkeyscore. This data has real-world implications, for instance, it is used to determine hiring for government jobs needing clearance. In other words, in the ''real world'', this data could mean a person might not get hired for a job for which they are qualified. In the face of consequences like that, something had to be done. [[User:Jason Quinn|Jason Quinn]] ([[User talk:Jason Quinn|talk]]) 00:18, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::I'm soooo glad that Big Daddy is watching over me lest I inadvertently poke out one of my own eyes! You're absolutely wrong, the WMF has absolutely no obligation to make sure that editors use https. WMF does need to provide that possibility (as it already did), that's all. And far as I can see, the people who ''really'' need to be protected from their governments are automatically excluded from using https. In any case, let me be absolutely clear about this: I'm an adult with adult responsibilities. Protecting my online privacy is ''my'' responsibility, ''not yours'' or anybody else's and I don't want anybody to take me by the hand and lead me "for my own good". End of story. --[[User:Randykitty|Randykitty]] ([[User talk:Randykitty|talk]]) 09:45, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::::That's crap. If your account gets hacked who are you going to blame? The WMF obviously because they didn't protect your account and your data. The WMF has an obligation to protect the private data of its editors, as spelled out in the privacy policy (only certain users can see private info, blah blah). This change doesn't just protect your privacy, it protects EVERYONE's privacy. So if you don't like it, change your own settings. But for everyone else who actually want's this change, stop complaining. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 09:58, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::::In a civilised society, people look out for those who don't have the knowledge or skills to properly protect themselves. (A cynical part of me says we don't live in such a civilised society, but it is an ideal to work towards.) Using HTTPS by default is one example of this&#160;– a lot of people are not aware it is relatively easy to hijack an HTTP session. Educating people about the risks so they can protect their own privacy is a good thing, but next to impossible to do for everyone. Hence the devs have chosen a sane default that maximises security and privacy for those who do not have the technical knowledge to set this for themselves. For those sufficiently technical to make their own decision, there is also an opt-out. (Admittedly, there are some glitches getting the opt-out to work, as others have noted.) –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 20:20, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::You're right, that's what civilized societies do, they make sure that nobody takes advantage of children, mentally handicapped persons, or people suffering from dementia. Thanks for putting me in one of those categories (I hope I fall in the category "children", that way at least there is still some hope for me). The paternalistic arrogance being displayed in this thread is really insufferable! For chrissakes, I'm not handling my bank account here, I'm editing Wikipedia... What privacy? If I understand correctly, the NSA already knows the real life identities of all WP editors. And they may in future not be able to read my contributions directly from my hacked browser, but then, all they have to do is to check my contributions, and presto! all my subversive edits are visible for the whole world to see. This whole thing is a paternalistic overreaction to a non-problem and even if it were a problem, as I just said, it doesn't solve it. --[[User:Randykitty|Randykitty]] ([[User talk:Randykitty|talk]]) 21:01, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::Civilized societies attempt to make sure that nobody takes unfair advantage of ''anybody''.  That's why financial institutions are regulated, even if they only deal with adults who all ought to be able to protect themselves from fraud and theft.  That's why barbers and cosmetologists have to get licensed, even if they only deal with adults who all ought to be able to tell whether the scissors were adequately cleaned in between customers and whether the bottle of shampoo contains safe ingredients.  That's why building codes exist, even if they're only being sold to adults who all ought to be able to decide for themselves if it's designed and built properly.
::::::::::Notice, too, that this change is really not about you.  It's about the rest of the 129,675 people who edited last month.  If you believe that every single one of them really is capable of dealing with their own internet security, then I suggest that you go spend a few hours at [[Special:RecentChanges]], and then come back and tell us whether you still believe that every single user here is so spectacularly competent that we should assume they're all competent to analyze their security risks, too.  [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 01:33, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::You get it exactly right: ''financial institutions'' are regulated so as not to take advantage of people that are perhaps not well informed, but nobody forbids those people to buy stock of take that way-too-large mortgage. There's a difference. And I'm really glad that somebody is watching out for those apparently incompetent 129,675 editors. I'm not so much complaining about the https change as about the mindset of some people talking down to me here telling me things were done for my own good. But I do recognize that I'm not convincing anybody, so let's get back to work. I'm taking this off my watchlist now. --[[User:Randykitty|Randykitty]] ([[User talk:Randykitty|talk]]) 06:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::You probably won't read this, but I think you misread my comment. I didn't say you were in any group. For the record, I was thinking of you in the "sufficiently technical to make their own decision" group when I wrote the comment. Also, no one is forbidding you from using HTTP; you have the option in [[Special:preferences|preferences]]. –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 21:41, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:What browser are you using? Are you using IE? Which version? If using IE, do you have the following checked in the "Advanced" section? "Do not save encrypted pages to disk"? If so, please uncheck that.--[[User:Ryan Lane (WMF)|Ryan Lane (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Ryan Lane (WMF)|talk]]) 02:04, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:: I think those questions pose a security risk, but hey feel free to state your personal ID number and banking account passwords here&nbsp;&ndash; it's safe now because we're running [[https]] (just kidding). The overall concept has been called, "[[penny-wise and pound-foolish]]" to dwell on small, micro-improvements when the real security risk is stating private information here. Another analogy is to double-padlock the front door and leave the backdoor unlocked. To really improve security, then have short warnings to remind users how everything written into a page can be read by anyone and many IP-addresses can be traced to town/building locations unless using a username. The rush to force to https seems too "penny-wise" as numerous browsers had problems running https transactions. -[[User:Wikid77|Wikid77]] ([[User talk:Wikid77|talk]]) 17:45, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::I do find the "The Wikimedia Foundation believes strongly in protecting the privacy of its readers and editors" a bit odd. Everyone can see a complete record of what I have edited, https won't stop that, but not what pages I have read. I'm sure spooks are more interested in the former than the latter. I've a feeling this is more a political gesture that an attempt to improve the encyclopedia. --[[User:Salix alba|Salix]] ([[User talk:Salix alba|talk]]): 11:00, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
::::Just because you and I publish our real names, doesn't mean everyone wants to/can do that... We still have true pseudonymous authors. Also, editing is a much more conscious step for users than cursory reading I think, they have a better understanding of how an edit might affect them, than how a read page might affect them. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 11:15, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:::[[Transport Layer Security|TLS]] provides quite a bit more to Wikipedia users than personal privacy (which is being overestimated for [[Smith v. Maryland|other reasons]]). I would hope critics that argue HTTPS is unnecessary have never tried editing Wikipedia [[session hijacking|from an open Wi-Fi access point]], or [[Tor (anonymity network)#Exit nodes should not be trusted|via Tor]]. --[[User:Fran Rogers|Fran Rogers]] ([[User talk:Fran Rogers|talk]]) 09:33, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

*It is simply incomprehensible that this platform-wide change was not announced over and over in the most visible way possible -- using a top of the page banner -- so that it would not go unnoticed by anybody. Like many other editors who are busy improving the content, I have no reason to check in on any of the places where it was mentioned. 

:@[[User:Jason Quinn|Jason Quinn]]: As a long-time editor here, I have to say I am disturbed by your dismissive attitude, as evidenced by your replies above. I quote: "...worries about browser history as pretty minor objections." AND "From my perspective, that's acceptable collateral damage... " Are you serious?? Those remarks sound like the words of the proto-typical military/corporate bureaucrat -- the sort of thing I would expect to encounter at the Pentagon or on Facebook -- but NOT here on Wikipedia! :( 

:Let me tell you something, Jason: My browser history is absolutely integral to how I do things on the internet. When my browser history first disappeared, I assumed that the problem was somewhere on MY end of things. I racked my brain, I checked everything -- all to no avail. I had no idea that Wiki had switched over to secure pages, so I was really at my wits' end until I just by chance finally noticed that little "http'''s'''" in the URLs. <Light bulb goes on> I then spent an hour googling a variety of search strings in hopes of finding something that would help resolve the problem. Again to no avail. Finally, I came ''here'' to see if anybody had raised the issue. What a relief it was to discover that it was already being discussed! Though in the first section, nobody mentioned the loss of browser history. So I was very happy indeed to spot [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]]'s remarks above, and the ensuing discussion. That is, until I got to ''your'' remarks. It's bad enough that you went into this with that kind of attitude. But to post remarks like that ''**after** having been told'' by another editor how upsetting this was is really very appalling. I hope in the future you will refrain from making remarks like that -- and more importantly, that you won't have that attitude in the first place. Sincerely, [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 05:06, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
::You must have missed the CentralNotice that ran for a week before this was enabled. Notices were posted on every pump, via mailing lists, the Wikimedia blog, etc. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 08:35, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
::*I missed it, too. Some of us are here to edit and I, for one, don't follow the Villagepump, am not on any email lists, do not read any blog (except [[Retraction Watch]]), etc. In addition, even if I had seen those notices, how could I have foreseen all the problems that this change would cause? The paternalistic "we know better than you, it's all for your own good" attitudes here are indeed something I'd expect from some overzealous civil service, not from WP editors. As for your earlier "stop complaining" edit summary: I feel you still don't get what I exactly are complaining about. I don't complain that https is available now, I complain about it being forced upon people (except, of course, those in China and Iran that need it most) and that I'm being told like a child what is good for me. ''THAT'' is what I complain about. Offering https as an option, fine. If I don't use it and my account gets hacked, that's my fault, why would I blame WMF for that? But tell me, in the past years http was standard and the vast majority of editors must have used that. Exactly how many accounts were hacked every year (not counting people who accidentally left their session open on a shared computer)? Anyway, at least the https opt-out now seems to work also for Firefox, so I can get back to work again. And don't worry, once all the mess is sorted out and https actually works with the tools I need, I may perhaps some day uncheck the opt-out. --[[User:Randykitty|Randykitty]] ([[User talk:Randykitty|talk]]) 10:38, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
::::It was indeed a [[m:Special:CentralNotice|CentralNotice]] and I definitely saw it when it was up. The message is at [[m:Special:CentralNoticeBanners/edit/HTTPSswitchovercoming|HTTPSswitchovercoming]]. If you don't wish to piece together the code, the text was:
:::::We will be making changes to make browsing Wikipedia more secure on 28 August at 20:00 UTC. [[m:HTTPS|Read more.]]
::::AFAICT it went up at 21:29, 21 August 2013 (UTC) and was up until 00:00, 29 August 2013 (UTC). --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 15:07, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::This is how it always works.  You put up a banner at the top of the page.  Then someone complains, "You should have put up a banner at the top of the page!  How dare you not inform me!"  And then you say, "You mean [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralNoticeBanners/edit/HTTPSswitchovercoming this banner right here]?"  But the response is never "Huh, must be a problem on my end, since you obviously took all the reasonable steps to publicize this". 
:::::It doesn't really matter how many messages you post.  There were literally more than ''one hundred'' messages on high-traffic pages about VisualEditor posted, including ''three'' top-of-page banners to all users, and people still said that it wasn't enough.  Only one person, after seeing the list of VE-related announcements, had a suggestion for another way to reach users, and I doubt that anyone else would accept his suggestion (he wanted messages spammed to the talk page of every single one of the 19 million accounts registered on the English Wikipedia, including inactive ones).  [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 01:40, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::An obvious way to avoid these complaints is to make all such changes opt-in instead of opt-out. '''[[User:Postdlf|postdlf]]''' (''[[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]'') 01:53, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::It's not actually possible to do that for every change.  I think a more reasonable approach is to develop a shared understanding of what's appropriate (e.g., post to these three pages for smaller changes, but to these twelve plus a one-week banner for big ones) and for everyone to accept that even if these appropriate notices are performed flawlessly, they will not reach everyone.  [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 04:54, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Given that the use of https is set up as a preference that an editor can check or uncheck, and the change made the use of https selected by default, that obviously was one that could have been made opt-in. So we don't need to talk about what can or can't be done for "every change," when it clearly can be done for this and many other changes. '''[[User:Postdlf|postdlf]]''' (''[[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]'') 16:54, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
{{od}}
I want to sincerely thank everyone in this thread, civil or not, logical or not, because I came here to figure out why I stopped getting a dropdown box each time I needed my own useful edit-summary suggestions.  As a result of this thread, I unchecked the now default HTTPS, and ''Lo and Behold!''  My edit-summary dropdown box returned!  So, thank you, Big Daddies, but – '''No Thank You'''.  ''Joys!'' &ndash;&nbsp;'''''<small>[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="color:darkblue; font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]</small>'''''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">''C<small>LIMAX</small>!''</b>]]</sup> 18:11, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

== Why is it so horrible to nominate for deletion on Wikipedia, when it's so easy on Commons? ==

::''Note: See [[commons:Help:Nominate for deletion]] and [[commons:Help:QuickDelete]] for the tool mentioned below.''
I was just talking with a new user, who hesitated to try to [[WP:AfD|AfD]] an article because the procedure's so off-putting, and I can certainly see their point. I have been here since the Ark, and I find it off-putting too. By contrast, I nominated an image for deletion on Commons a day or two ago, and was awed by how easy ''that'' was. Smooth as silk! Why can't we have that too? Please? Would somebody like to take a look at how it's done on Commons and give us something similar? Or is there some reason we actually need the confusing, jargon-ridden, template-infested, multi-step, instruction-creepy procedure that we have? (MfD is no better, and CfD, at a quick glance, seems worse.) [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] &#124; [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 20:30, 29 August 2013 (UTC).
: In my opinion, [[WP:TW|Twinkle]] isn't much more complex than the "nominate for deletion" link on Commons. The manual instructions ([[Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/listing a request manually]], [[WP:AFDHOW]]) seem to be about equally complex on both projects. --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 20:40, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::<small>Given how many articles are routinely sent to AfD without going through [[WP:BEFORE]] or the like, I'd say we should make the process ''harder'', not easier...{{p}}--[[User:Cyclopia|<span style="font-size:small; color:seagreen;">cyclopia</span>]][[User talk:Cyclopia|<sup style="color:red;">speak!</sup>]] 20:51, 29 August 2013 (UTC)</small>

::I can't believe what I'm hearing. "If new users think it's complicated, just tell them to get Twinkle"? Is that it, Stefan2? Can you really not see the difference between getting Twinkle and learning how to use it, versus an actual, working link next to the article which you click in order to nominate it? And Cyclopia, I hope you're joking, with your implication that everything would be better around here if only the tech-savvy got to do things like nominating for deletion. I do realize this, the "technical" branch of the Village Pump, is principally frequented by tech guys. But surely there are some of you out there who have some empathy for the other half. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] &#124; [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 21:05, 29 August 2013 (UTC).
:::Personally speaking i found it easier here than i did working out what the hell to do on commons. Twinkle isn't a hard tool at all to learn, and i kind of agree its easy enough to nominate now and we get very poor nominations. In my opinion making it easier could do more harm than good.[[User:Blethering Scot|<span style="color:Maroon;">Blethering</span>]] [[User talk:Blethering Scot|<span style="color:Green;">Scot</span>]] 21:18, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::: [[User:Blethering Scot]]: We should aim for ''more'' and for ''more informed'' editors participating in nominations. Putting technical hurdles in place helps with neither — it merely weeds out editors who are not stubborn enough to overcome them. [[WP:RANDY|This is not always a good thing.]] I made a proposal on [[WP:VPPRO]] to address the informedness part. Not sure how it would work out, but feel free to comment. <span class="signature">[[User:Kephir|Keφr]]</span> 15:51, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:I've added a topnote pointing to the commons-documentation for the tool in question. –[[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 21:58, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I've never nominated any file for deletion on the Commons but have done two AfD...the first one I stumbled through by looking at others and copying codes/markup language. But I couldn't remember what I'd done and I messed up the second one. Luckily, two more experienced editors came to my Talk Page and walked me through the steps. But I probably need to refer to that conversation thread if I nominate another AfD. 

For one thing, the instructions are not obvious. Now, probably someone will come by and give me the link to the instructions which appears ''somewhere'' on the AfD main page but it should be more prominent, not hidden two thirds of the way down the page. It's easy to find pages that give you criteria for deletion but the "how to" (what templates you use, notifying the creator, where you post the rationale, creating a separate discussion page, etc.). 

In contrast, I think CfD is pretty straight-forward. There is one page and you add to the list, just post the category you're interested in deleting, merging or renaming, post your rationale and post a very obvious CfD template on the relevant category page. Done. [[User:Liz|<span style="font-family:Rage Italic; font-size:large; color:#800080;">'''''L'''''iz</span>]] <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;">[[Special:Contributions/Liz|<b style="color:#006400;">''Read!''</b>]] [[User talk:Liz|<b style="color:#006400;">''Talk!''</b>]]</sup> 13:23, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:Oh yes, I expect CfD may well be straightforward if you just trust your intuition and fly by the seat of your pants. But have you looked at the ''instructions''? They're a babylonian nightmare, a tl;dr labyrinth. I especially dislike the all-but-explicit hint that if you don't use Twinkle, you have only yourself to blame.  [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] &#124; [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 14:44, 30 August 2013 (UTC).

[[user:bishonen|Bish]]: completely agreed. The manual process here has gotten so awful and convoluted that my workflow for nominating a page for deletion now involves enabling [[WP:TW|Twinkle]] temporarily, nominating the page, and then disabling Twinkle. It's terrible.

I think we need some kind of "Twinkle Lite" script that's auto-enabled for all editors that allows for simple, basic actions. It'd be good if it used real words in the user interface and not the fucking mess that Twinkle brings along (xfd, csd, blergh). In my ideal world, there would be a delete tab that everyone (including regular editors and admins) would hit that would advise CSD, prod, or XFD. And if CSD is selected, the admin could then delete the page immediately rather than tagging it. Otherwise, the script would auto-tag and auto-notify (similar to how Twinkle behaves, if you can find the appropriate link to click...). --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 23:24, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
:Thank you, [[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]]. The first time I used Twinkle for the purpose of AfDing an article, I accidentally nominated [[WP:ANI]] for deletion instead.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=568536604] I've rarely been more congratulated on an action, but it goes to show that if you're stupid enough, even Twinkle isn't so transparent as all that. And I'd sure prefer not to ''have'' to use it. Twinkle Lite that talks English sounds good to me. But, meanwhile, I still don't get why  the "normal" nomination procedure has to be so much like.. er.. [''insert your own favorite piece of dangerous, antiquated, cumbersome, clanging, needs-oiling machinery here, preferably with image'']. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] &#124; [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 00:04, 1 September 2013 (UTC).
:: [[user:bishonen|B]]: In many ways, the existence of tools such as Twinkle enable the problematic behavior and delay implementation of a better alternative. That is, when you have something like Twinkle that makes everything so easy, but the manual process remains difficult, everyone with sufficient resources and leverage (i.e., power-users) forget about the issue. Similarly, if the category rename bot or archive bots stopped working, power-users would care a lot more about how awful talk pages and category renaming are. For now, editors are content because bots/scripts make the overall process less painful. In other words, everyone who gets annoyed with the manual process (which is just about everyone) just enables Twinkle or doesn't nominate pages for deletion.
:: I imagine the process is so convoluted due to it growing over time without direction or purpose. It grew in the wiki way, which is fine for articles (to a point), but often doesn't lead to great software. Deletion processes need a major overhaul, but inertia is cruel. Implementing a "Twinkle Lite" option is the fastest solution because Twinkle is tested and field-ready (people use it every day here). But in addition to making the processes simpler with better user-facing tools, there are a number of inconsistencies and stupidities in the deletion process architecture itself (e.g., some use /day subpages while others don't). Rather than relying on Twinkle, which just abstracts away the underlying mess, we really ought to address the underlying architecture/design mess as well. We should try to make the processes as consistent as possible (between categories, stubs, miscellany, articles, templates, and files) and figure out what the user should be focusing on (e.g., writing a valid deletion rationale) and figure out what the scripts should be focused on (knowing whether to add the new entry to the top or to the bottom of the index, decoding exactly which subst incantation is needed with or without a signature, etc.).
:: [[mw:Flow]] is supposed to accomplish this major overhaul one day, but not for several years. Flow barely exists now and it remains to be seen whether it'll be the next "LQTv5" (a riff on [[mw:Extension:LiquidThreads|LiquidThreads]] and [[mw:Extension:ArticleFeedbackv5|ArticleFeedbackv5]], two particularly adored Wikimedia Foundation initiatives). --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 00:21, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Hear, hear !!! —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 08:13, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:::: Is there any possibility that this conversation here would lead to a reconsideration of the Byzantine methods for manually nominating an AfD? [[User:Liz|<span style="font-family:Rage Italic; font-size:large; color:#800080;">'''''L'''''iz</span>]] <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;">[[Special:Contributions/Liz|<b style="color:#006400;">''Read!''</b>]] [[User talk:Liz|<b style="color:#006400;">''Talk!''</b>]]</sup> 14:51, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::I think that [[WP:Flow]] is likely to improve the AFD process, but not until next year (at the earliest).  [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 04:57, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
::: You should mix "VisualEditor" somewhere in there, [[User:MZMcbride|MZ]]. <span class="signature">[[User:Kephir|Keφr]]</span> 15:51, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
* +1 to all of this. The deletion processes should have been "wizard"-ized a long time ago, and in fact the instructions for manually making nominations are pretty much pseudocode already (open this page, add this template, fill out some fields, open that page...). Questions: (a) Who would we need to recruit to build a test version? The QuickDelete gadget on Commons appears to be maintained by {{u|Rillke}} ([[commons:User:Rillke]]). (b) What level of approval would be needed to switch it on here when it was ready, community or WMF? — [[User:Scott Martin|'''<span style="color:#000">Scott</span>''']] <span style="color:#900">•</span> [[User talk:Scott Martin|''<span style="color:#000">talk</span>'']] 17:00, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
*:(a) Any community member with JavaScript skills who is interested in helping. (b) Enabling gadgets only requires community consensus. The WMF do not need to be involved. –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 22:11, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
I shall outline a somewhat more general problem, another which Twinkle partly alleviates — article tags. Currently they are normal templates, placed next to article content itself. This generates a yet another potential for misuse and misinformation: falsely dating maintenance templates, breaking markup, inserting false protection icons. Templates like {{tl|pp-semi}} should not exist: protection icons should be provided by the MediaWiki software. {{tl|unreferenced}} should not be a template put inside the page markup, it should be a feature of MediaWiki which actively keeps track of maintenance issues. Same goes with AfD notices. Nothing stops vandals or spammers from removing or backdating them, besides page protection, but this is obviously discouraged. If we had a system which understands tags and can put some restrictions on their use, that would 

They say that [[WP:Flow|Flow]] is about to fix the discussion issues — good. About the bloody time. But I think it will miss the point if we do not also recognise problems in the larger picture. Twinkle is a patch around the general technical ineptitude of Wikipedia's software. Ideally, it would not exist at all. <span class="signature">[[User:Kephir|Keφr]]</span> 15:51, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

== About the system ssl ==

It would be possible to move to the SGC system or the system SSL 3.0 or maybe XMPP? [[User:João bonomo|João bonomo]] ([[User talk:João bonomo|talk]]) 15:40, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
:Moving what exactly? And why? --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 11:19, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
:: to make the site safer. [[User:João bonomo|João bonomo]] ([[User talk:João bonomo|talk]]) 17:06, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:[[Server gated cryptography]] is obsolete; enabling it would only benefit people with very old browsers.
:[[Secure Socket Layer#SSL 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0|SSL 3.0]] is already supported by Wikipedia. However, it is an old protocol (circa 1996); modern browsers will prefer the newer [[Transport Layer Security|TLS]] protocol, also supported by Wikipedia.
:[[XMPP]] (formerly known as Jabber) is an instant messaging protocol; it is not useful for serving a website. Did you mean [[XAMPP]]? This package makes it easy to set up servers running [[Apache HTTP Server]], [[MySQL]] and [[PHP]]. Wikipedia already uses all of this software, and I'm sure the ops team have systems in place for setting up new servers. –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 22:16, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:: They use [[puppet (software)|puppet]]. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 14:01, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

=== Better SSL suggestions ===
Wikipedia does not currently use [[perfect forward secrecy]] (PFS). If anyone is recording Wikipedia HTTPS traffic (e.g. dodgy governments) and Wikipedia's long-term private key becomes compromised, all the recorded traffic can be decrypted. PFS allows each connection to be encrypted with a different key; should a key be compromised, only the communication over that one connection is revealed.

Additionally, Wikipedia is using the [[RC4]] cipher algorithm. Given the news this is possibly compromised,[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/06/nsa_cryptobreaking_bullrun_analysis/] I'd recommend switching to [[Advanced Encryption Standard|AES]] for browsers that support [[Transport Layer Security#TLS 1.1|TLS 1.1]] or later. (AES should not be used with TLS 1.0 because that combination is vulnerable to [[BEAST attack#BEAST attack|BEAST attacks]].) –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 22:46, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
: See [//lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2013-September/071705.html this post on wikitech-l], the configuration is being worked on. And the change for enabling GCM ciphers is [[gerrit:83043|in gerrit now]]. As for BEAST, I've read that for openssl it's not possible to use AES with TLS 1.1 but not TLS 1.0 (you could disable TLS 1.0 entirely, but that would lock out older browsers). [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 14:01, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
: Thank You. [[User:João bonomo|João bonomo]] ([[User talk:João bonomo|talk]]) 14:55, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

== Template is creating a hanging line break ==

'''[[Template:Infobox Minor League Baseball]]''' On pages where it is used as an infobox (e.g. [[Great Lakes Loons]]), it creates an extra line hanging above the text and I can't seem to get rid of it. Can someone help? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (<span style="color:grey">ko'''a'''vf</span>)]]<span style="color:red">❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯</span> 01:00, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
:[[Great Lakes Loons]] looks fine to me, as do the others that I looked at. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 11:32, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
::Are you seeing this in VisualEditor, or when just reading the page?  [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 16:57, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
:::'''Display''' I'm just using a standard MonoBook rendered with SeaMonkey but you're right: it looks fine now. Thanks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (<span style="color:grey">ko'''a'''vf</span>)]]<span style="color:red">❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯</span> 16:45, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

== Possible software glitch for collapsed text ==

Hopefully [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions#Imagemaps this Teahouse question] won't be archived before someone looks at it. I couldn't see the text on the right when I clicked on "show". I asked about this thinking there was some glitch in how it was added to the page. [[User:PrimeHunter]] said there should be a [[scrollbar]] but there wasn't. He asked my browser, which is [[Internet Explorer 9]].— [[User:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color: Green">Vchimpanzee</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[User talk:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color: orange"> talk</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Vchimpanzee|<span style="color: purple">contributions</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' 21:44, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:I looked at it for 10 minutes but gave up. I call it one more example of IE stubbornness. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 13:19, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
::Is it possible the software doesn't know to have a scrollbar because the text starts out collapsed and there's no need for it?— [[User:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color: Green">Vchimpanzee</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[User talk:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color: orange"> talk</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Vchimpanzee|<span style="color: purple">contributions</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' 17:16, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
:::By the way, I did see the missing text in the edit box.— [[User:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color: Green">Vchimpanzee</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[User talk:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color: orange"> talk</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Vchimpanzee|<span style="color: purple">contributions</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' 20:33, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
::::It's IE, it should be doing a whole lot of things that it isn't doing :/ (Like store autocomplete entries in a secure store instead of throwing them away without telling the user if he is using https). —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 20:37, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

== Font changed ==

{{tracked|53734}}
Hi, what has changed in the last day to cause a change in the font of the text in the editing box. The box opens with the text in the font that it has been for some time then changes as the page loads to a thinner lined font. There is no change on Commons so must be something in the wikipedia set-up. Also how do you stop the change happening? [[User:Keith D|Keith D]] ([[User talk:Keith D|talk]]) 13:33, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:I saw this happening yesterday - just once - can't remember where (but yesterday, on one of the sister projects, I found that all of my preferences had been reset to default). There are two things to check:
:* {{myprefs|Editing|{{MediaWiki:editfont-style}}}} - I have mine set to "{{MediaWiki:editfont-default}}".
:*your browser's default monospace font - mine's set to Courier New. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 15:45, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:: This is probably {{phab|55734}}, aka "ULS strikes back". [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 16:55, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:::I have set that option now. But interesting the browser default gives different results on Wikipedia and Commons. [[User:Keith D|Keith D]] ([[User talk:Keith D|talk]]) 17:39, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
::::I've just had that happen to me when logged out, when trying to work out some system messages when the edit window is open. It's replicable: [//en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sandbox&action=edit this uses default language] and is in monospace font; but [//en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sandbox&action=edit&uselang=qqx this has <code>uselang=qqx</code>] to reveal the message names and is in the sans-serif proportional font. This is in both Firefox 23.0.1 and Opera 12.16 --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 19:07, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::Something, probably ULS, is injecting an inline CSS declaration (font-family: sans-serif;) into the textarea. This should probably only happen with ''some'' languages. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 09:37, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
:I'm having the same issue. Things look fine when logged out, but when I log in I get huge text in the edit box. I've tried all the obvious fixes - it happens regardless of which skin I use, which gadgets I enable/disable etc. 'Edit area font style' setting is already 'Browser default'. [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 22:00, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
::OK, try this. At {{myprefs}} is the Language set to either "en-CA - Canadian English" or "en-GB - British English"? If so, alter it to "en - English". --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:32, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Ah yes, I'm on en-gb. Switching to simple en does fix it, thanks, though is clearly just a temporary solution and one I would prefer not to leave on permanently. [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 00:10, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
::::en-gb is discouraged because many en messages have been customized at the English Wikipedia, but usually not the en-gb messages. The setting only affects interface messages. See [[Help:Preferences#User profile]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 08:00, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::That sounds like poor practise in the customisation system, not a good reason to discourage the use of the language options. I speak en-gb, not en-us. What exactly do you mean by 'have been customized' anyway? [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 12:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::Our MediaWiki software is used by thousands of wikis and comes with hundreds or thousands of default interface messages in up to hundreds of languages (not all messages have been translated to all languages). The English Wikipedia can customize the messages, for example linking to relevant tools, help and process pages at the English Wikipedia. As an example, if an unregistered user or a user with the default "en" tries to edit a page they don't have permission to edit, or click "View source", then they see the customized [[MediaWiki:Protectedpagetext]] (it displays a little differently on fully protected pages). Users with en-gb see [[MediaWiki:Protectedpagetext/en-gb]]. The lack of a history tab means it hasn't been created at the English Wikipedia so it shows the default Mediawiki message: "This page has been protected to prevent editing or other actions." At [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 115#Erroneous message on Watchlist]] I made a short list of the British spellings you get with en-gb. I personally think that either en-gb shouldn't be a language option at the English Wikipedia, or it should automatically display customized "en" messages when there is no customized en-gb message. Same for en-ca (Canadian English). [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 13:36, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks for the explanation. I agree with the latter of those two possible solutions. Indeed, if anyone with en-gb set were to see a notice written in en-us, that would encourage them to 'translate' it as required. At the moment if they just don't see it, it never gets done because they aren't aware that there's another message. Finding some way for non-admins to do it would also help. [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 17:48, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::::I believe that translations for the interface (various buttons) happen at https://translatewiki.net and that translations for documentation happen at https://mediawiki.org  For example, if you want to create en-gb translations for VisualEditor, then go to [http://translatewiki.net/enwiki/w/i.php?title=Special:Translate&group=ext-visualeditor&filter=&language=en-gb&action=translate this page on Translatewiki (you'll need a separate account)] or start with [https://www.mediawiki.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-VisualEditor%2FPortal&filter=&language=en-gb&action=translate this page on Mediawiki (your Wikipedia username/password should work there)].  [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 22:55, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
:{{od|:::::::}}Translatewiki.net is only for translating MediaWiki's ''default'' interface messages. {{abbr|AFAIK|As far as I know}}, they do not deal with translations of our customised messages. If we are using a different message from the MediaWiki default, its translation should be done only on Wikipedia. (For a US message at ''MediaWiki:message'', the British translation should be put at ''MediaWiki:message/en-gb''.) –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 21:46, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
*Out of curiosity, are there any '''actual uses''' of/for the en-gb and en-ca settings, here on English Wikipedia? 
:It's always seemed like a good way for tripling the amount of work that has to be done in keeping things updated... And if we're going to make a split for en-ca, why not en-aus, en-nz, en-sa, etc? 
:Apart from "centre, color, gray, organisation", it doesn't seem like we'd have [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Spelling#English_spelling_comparison_chart|much to worry about]], and we might just [[dogfooding|use ENGVAR]] ourselves, instead of having these problems regularly... 
:Just a thought. –[[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 18:13, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
*I use en-gb and Monobook, and my font in edit windows looks to have changed to something very hard to read quickly. I haven't changed any default fonts anywhere. Is there any way I can get rid of this monstrosity? (The grey box at the bottom looks different, somehow, too. I can't describe it without having an earlier version available to me.) BTW there are (or were) differences in the display of en-gb. If this is a change to the US version, I want an alternative. This is ghastly. Differences I can describe include colons that are higher than the body of an e, and extra large = signs. I'm finding it hard to count the colons at the start of a line as the dots are almost invisible. [[User:Peridon|Peridon]] ([[User talk:Peridon|talk]]) 19:41, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
*:Afaik, it's a change from monospace to sans-serif - you can fix it temporarily by changing to language "en". I'm not sure how they're planning to fix things, or how long it will take. As I noted above, I don't think you'll see any real difference by using "en", except you'll be guaranteed to get all fixes/updates.. –[[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 01:03, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
:::''(Why do I usually get so angry when I come here?)'' Why the hell do they have to change things from something clear to read to this crap? I'd rather have Comic Sans, and that's saying something. I was sticking to Monobook and en-gb to AVOID the 'updates' (= 'downgrades' to my mind.). If it's a bug, you have my apologies (and my gratitude when it's fixed). If it's been done on purpose, those responsible are likely to be the objects of my curses. Sans-serif is good for headlines. For body text, a seriffed font is far clearer to read. Sans-serif may be more fashionable, but for easy reading, serifs beat sans-serif hollow. [[User:Peridon|Peridon]] ([[User talk:Peridon|talk]]) 17:21, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
::::I'm certain it's not intentional. It's definitely a bug, and it's being [[bugzilla:53734|tracked on Bugzilla]]. –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 21:53, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

=== Font changes in the source editor ===
Instructions to reproduce:
#Edit any text in source. Note the monospaced, serifed font.
#Go to [[Special:Preferences]]. Under "Internationalization", switch to "En-GB". Save the settings.
#Edit any text in source. Text will be in a non-monospaced, sans-serif font. [There may be a slight delay]

This behaviour is apparently dependant on JavaScript.

The hell? <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup></span> 08:29, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

:Discussed above at [[#Font changed]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 08:42, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

== Question about VisualEditor ==

So, my question is, is VisualEditor part of the MediaWiki software package? If not, is it going to be at some future release? Or is it some sort of an extension that you can add on if you want to, turning it on and off at will? Say, for instance, that someone on another wiki wanted to install VE (crazy, I know). Could they do that? <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Adjwilley|Adjwilley]] <small>([[User talk:Adjwilley|talk]])</small></span> 02:02, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
:See [[mw:Extension:VisualEditor]]. It isn't part of the "core" software, but available as an optional extension. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 02:55, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

:Many things at the English Wikipedia are extensions. See [[Special:Version#Installed extensions]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 07:11, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
::Thank you both: that answers my question. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Adjwilley|Adjwilley]] <small>([[User talk:Adjwilley|talk]])</small></span> 03:53, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

== CfDs in mobile view ==

It's rather difficult to navigate between CfD pages using the mobile view, as the header tab which contains the links to the previous and next days' pages doesn't appear in the mobile view.  Any idea how to fix this?  &ndash;&nbsp;''[[User:Philosopher|Philosopher]]''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Philosopher|Let us reason together.]]</sup> 22:42, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

:The navigation links at top of [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 September 8]] are apparently made with substitution of {{tl|CFD log day}}. The code says class="boilerplate metadata vfd". http://noc.wikimedia.org/conf/highlight.php?file=InitialiseSettings.php says:
<pre>'wmgMFRemovableClasses' => array(
	'default' => array(
		'base' => array(
			'div.stub',
			'div.sister-project',
			'.portal',
			'.boilerplate',
			'.hiddenStructure',
			'.medialist',
		),
		'HTML' => array(
			'.topicon',
		),
		'WML' => array(
			'.metadata',
		),
		'extracts' => array(
			'.metadata',
			'span.coordinates',
			'span.geo-multi-punct',
			'span.geo-nondefault',
		),
	),
)</pre>
:I think this means that both boilerplate and metadata removes {{tl|CFD log day}} from the mobile view. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 09:04, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

== Book tool PDF bugs and lack of support ==

I am unsure if this the right place to report this but the Book tool's PDF export function has been producing incorrectly rendered notes and references for several months, maybe over a year. For example, see [[meta:Book tool/Feedback#Bug: Notes and References all end up as Notes]] (it's worse than title implies). 

I made this post at the above meta page: "This bug is still present, and is worse than described in that many notes and references do not appear at all in the PDF. Try [[:w:Book:Overview of the Solar System]] and [[:w:Book:Leonardo da Vinci]]." but I then suspected no one who can help is looking at that page.

The pediapress support links at [[meta:Book tool/Feedback]] all appear dead.

This [[bugzilla:47818|bug]] maybe relevant but it is assigned to nobody. Or [[bugzilla:39095|this one]], over a year old and still unassigned. -[[User:84user|84user]] ([[User talk:84user|talk]]) 13:42, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
:I think this is the same as [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 116#PDF output of Wikipedia Page is Missing its References]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 16:26, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
::You likely found the right bug reports, congrats. :) The "Collection" extension which provides this functionality is maintained by the Pediapress folks. As usual with open source projects they likely miss (wo)manpower which is a pity. I think that Wikimedia Foundation is aware of the problem and discussing a bit how to improve the situation in the long run. --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 17:11, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
== Secure site only? ==

Suddenly every page visited takes me to the secure site, and attempts to preview edits bring up nothing - just the edit window of the full page - what gives? - [[User:The Bushranger|The Bushranger]] <sub>[[User talk:The Bushranger|<span style="color:maroon;">One ping only</span>]]</sub> 20:43, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:I can preview edits again now, but I am sent to the secure site (on both latest Firefox and Chrome) no matter what page on the non-secure site I enter a URL for? - [[User:The Bushranger|The Bushranger]] <sub>[[User talk:The Bushranger|<span style="color:maroon;">One ping only</span>]]</sub> 20:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:If I'm logged out, the normal site works, but while logged in, I'm sent to the <nowiki>https://</nowiki> no matter what I do. - [[User:The Bushranger|The Bushranger]] <sub>[[User talk:The Bushranger|<span style="color:maroon;">One ping only</span>]]</sub> 20:49, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
You're not alone. [[User:Ginsuloft|Ginsuloft]] ([[User talk:Ginsuloft|talk]]) 20:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm having all sorts of troubles, too. Editors must have an option to turn secure protocol off. I understand the benefits and all, but for some this mandatory secure connection would do more harm than good if it cannot be turned off. Please, fix.—[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky)]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;([[User talk:Ezhiki|yo?]]); August&nbsp;28, 2013; 20:52 (UTC)

: There is a preference. It's on the first page of your preferences, see "Always use a secure connection when logged in." <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">20:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)</em>
::That fixed it, thanks. However, that begs the question as to why, all of a sudden, it became enabled ''without my having checked it''. If there was a decision to change that to 'on by default' where was the discussion? - [[User:The Bushranger|The Bushranger]] <sub>[[User talk:The Bushranger|<span style="color:maroon;">One ping only</span>]]</sub> 20:58, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::Thank you kindly. Of course, getting to it was a challenge in my situation, since the sudden switch to secure access by default rendered everything inoperable in my situation (so the Preferences are inaccessible too). Thank goodness for mobile technology; all is well now.—[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky)]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;([[User talk:Ezhiki|yo?]]); August&nbsp;28, 2013; 20:59 (UTC)
::...and I've just discovered that the said checkbox needs to be unticked separately in every language edition of Wikipedia and in sister projects... that's a lot of fiddling with the phone for me today :(—[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky)]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;([[User talk:Ezhiki|yo?]]); August&nbsp;29, 2013; 13:25 (UTC)
::It also begs the question, did any other preferences turn on/off spontaneously as a result of this little update? A list would be nice, thanks. [[User:Ginsuloft|Ginsuloft]] ([[User talk:Ginsuloft|talk]]) 21:02, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:::<small>'''''Pedant Alert!''''' "[[Begging the question]]" is actually something completely different; you both mean "invites the question". — [[User:Scott Martin|'''<span style="color:#000">Scott</span>''']] <span style="color:#900">•</span> [[User talk:Scott Martin|''<span style="color:#000">talk</span>'']] 14:12, 2 September 2013 (UTC)</small>
::: No, no other preferences were changed. And neither was this one, for what it's worth. What you're seeing is a *new* preference that was coded in MediaWiki core to be true by default when $wgSecureLogin is enabled. As we rolled that out today (which has been mentioned in many places over the last few weeks), this preference became live for all users who aren't geotargetted as not having reliable SSL access. <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">21:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)</em>
:::: Well, with all due respect, apparently it needed to be mentioned a few additional places, as I'm sure I'm not the only user who suddenly found themselves wondering what ''new'' and ''exciting'' way their computer had suddenly decided to break... - [[User:The Bushranger|The Bushranger]] <sub>[[User talk:The Bushranger|<span style="color:maroon;">One ping only</span>]]</sub> 21:14, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::::: I don't know how [[m:HTTPS|many]] [https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/08/01/future-https-wikimedia-projects/ other] [[m:Tech/News|places]] [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_115#HTTPS_for_users_with_an_account|it]] [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_115#HTTPS_for_logged_in_users_on_Wednesday_August_28th|could]] [[m:Tech/News/2013/34|have]] [http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-ambassadors/2013-August/000357.html been] [http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-ambassadors/2013-August/000353.html announced]. Oh, and we ran a sitenotice for logged in users last week. <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">21:24, 28 August 2013 (UTC)</em>
:::::: Maybe I've just had my brain tune out sitenotices... - [[User:The Bushranger|The Bushranger]] <sub>[[User talk:The Bushranger|<span style="color:maroon;">One ping only</span>]]</sub> 21:32, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::::I have disabled secure login in my preferences but I am still being taken to the secure server and this is effing up all my gadgets and scripts, and giving me "cannot parse" errors...--[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 21:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::::: Did you try logging out and back in again? The preference in combination with special:login does some weird things with cookies. We added a help message there but perhaps it was unclear. <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">21:24, 28 August 2013 (UTC)</em>
::::::Yes several times. The problem is isolated to Firefox. Works OK on Chrome.--[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 21:27, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::It's a cache issue then. Should fix itself after a while. (Do not change the preference repeatedly on and off, as this will only make Firefox cache the wrong preference.) [[User:Ginsuloft|Ginsuloft]] ([[User talk:Ginsuloft|talk]]) 21:34, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::: It may be a caching issue, yes. I've been unable to replicate the problem just yet, but I'll keep having a look since this behavior isn't ideal :) <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">21:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)</em>
::::Ok, thank you! I think it's useful since the only reason I wasn't using https before was because of browser auto-complete and blue links, but it's nice to have it auto-redirect. Hopefully this won't be suddenly disabled/changed when I've finally clicked enough links to make them purple again (and my browser remember them to auto-complete them). [[User:Ginsuloft|Ginsuloft]] ([[User talk:Ginsuloft|talk]]) 21:17, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::This was previously announced and discussed at [[m:HTTPS]]. I think that it was also discussed at some other places, such as [[mw:]] and [[bugzilla:]]. There was also an announcement to all village pumps (in all languages) on Commons, various places on Meta and at least some of the village pumps on this project. --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 21:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::Is there any way for people without https access to disable this, given that they won't be able to log in to change their preferences? The [[content-control software]] for a lot of public libraries, schools, and military facilities, for instance, blocks https by default, so this could potentially hit quite a lot of people, who won't necessarily have the savvy to find WP:VPT.&nbsp;[[User:Mogism|Mogism]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Mogism#top|talk]]) 21:43, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::: So, this issue did come up during the initial technical RFC but we decided not to act on it just yet. To be perfectly honest, logging in over HTTP on a public connection like a library is a ''really'' '''really''' bad idea, but I digress. We're always open to further iterations on this--it's an ongoing process after all--so any suggestions on how to help more users who are inconvenienced would be welcome. <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">22:00, 28 August 2013 (UTC)</em>
::::::::Since I use the secure login by default, this change made life easier for me. Thank you. I did notice the announcement some weeks ago; the sudden reactions just now might be due to other deployment conditions, because I just stick to firefox; I use chrome rarely, using IE only in a library setting (but I never login at the library). --[[User:Ancheta Wis|Ancheta Wis]] [[User talk:Ancheta Wis| &nbsp; (talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Ancheta Wis| &#124; contribs)]] 23:12, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::My feeling on this is that we should not allow insecure login, especially on networks like these. We're really doing a disservice to users in Iran and China by allowing insecure login, but we'd be disenfranchising such a large number of users that it's hard to do otherwise. In this case, you should be complaining loudly to the people blocking HTTPS because it's an incredibly insecure thing to do. If a library, of all places, is doing so they should be shamed. This of course is my specific opinion and there may be enough people that disagree with me to allow something insecure.--[[User:Ryan Lane (WMF)|Ryan Lane (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Ryan Lane (WMF)|talk]]) 23:49, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::::I agree on all counts, but what they're doing is probably that they only allow outgoing TCP traffic to port 80 (with the intention of disabling/throttling torrents and such) but forget to allow port 443, ironically making their network ''less'' secure. [[User:Ginsuloft|Ginsuloft]] ([[User talk:Ginsuloft|talk]]) 00:02, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::In my experience, public and semi-public (corporate etc) networks tend to be run by people with legitimate reasons to have an extreme risk-averse mentality, but not that much technical knowledge - they didn't become librarians, internet cafe owners etc to tinker with filter options. So, they install Webmarshall (or whatever), and leave all the default boxes checked (including "block all https"), rather than tinker with settings they don't really understand. I can assure you from experience that the "Error: all https blocked on this terminal" message isn't an unusual experience on a public terminal. I think this will come up enough that allowing a "log on using the insecure server" box ought to be added. (With an appropriate warning if necessary, although I can't quite see what we're hiding from - I'm sure if the CIA care strongly enough about what I post they could crack my account somehow.)&nbsp;[[User:Mogism|Mogism]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Mogism#top|talk]]) 00:31, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::Who's to say some of these places aren't harvesting user names and passwords of their users to sell or try on bank sites and such? Places like this are basically the entire reason to force login over HTTPS.--[[User:Ryan Lane (WMF)|Ryan Lane (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Ryan Lane (WMF)|talk]]) 02:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::An operator of public terminals could just as well install keylogging and similar software to steal passwords and other key information at the source, in which case HTTPS offers no benefit at all (and might even create a false sense of security).  SSL can help reduce the likelihood of a compromise when using public wifi, but if you are going to actually use a public terminal then HTTPS isn't much protection at all.  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] ([[User talk:Dragons flight|talk]]) 09:01, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

*Changing  the prefs and clearing  the cache does not  work (Firefox 23.0.1, MacOS 10.8.4). This is extremely  annoying  to  the point of putting  me off editing. If  it's having  that  effect  on  ''me'', we're going  to  lose some users and that's not  conducive to editor retention. Any  devs watching  this please take notice, because filing  glitches at  Bugzilla these days has very  little effect  in  prompting  any  action. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 22:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
: I said I was looking into this :) <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">22:10, 28 August 2013 (UTC)</em>
::Please do, because it's now actually  freezing  my  computer, needing  FireFox to  be keystroke force quitted (alt+cmd+esc) to , unfreeze the desktop.  What  I'm  getting  are messages like this: ''WikiPage: Couldn't parse page name from url 'https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)&oldid=570591325''' and a spinning  wheel that  does not  stop  spinning. Hope this helps. If  it's happening  to  me, it's possibly  happening  to  tens of thousands of others. Thanks. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 23:02, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::Checking 'Always use secure connection  while logged in' and clearing  the cache does not  help  either. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 23:24, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
::: I'm having a heck of a time trying to replicate this (and I've been trying since it was first reported!). Is there any chance you could list, step-by-step, the process you were using to login, whether you were on HTTP to HTTPS at the time, and where exactly things went wrong? I'm hoping we're just miscommunicating here and there's an easy solution at hand :) <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">23:37, 28 August 2013 (UTC)</em>
::::I have disabled this in my preferences, as the default left me totally unable to edit, or even view, Wikipedia. (Every time I clicked on a link, or even typed in a url, I was switched to an https url, with a popup window "couldn't parse page name from url...". Previously, if directed to an https page, I have had to remove the s in order to open the page, but the new change made this impossible. Eventually I managed to open my preferences, find the relevant entry, and uncheck the tick; now everything works smoothly again. I have no idea what is causing the problem; whether it is my Wikipedia gadgets, my Firefox add-ons, or my security settings. Nor do I feel inclined to experiment and see what tweaks, if any, would resolve the problem. But it is clear to me that this change should not become a default, or be made mandatory, since this would certainly lock out readers and editors. <span style="font-family: Papyrus">[[User:RolandR|RolandR]] ([[User talk:RolandR|talk]])</span> 00:22, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::::: Hmm, that's a weird error message I've not seen before. Do you happen to have [[User:Quarl/wikipage.js]] installed? Googling sent me there. If so, I can definitely see why this user script is failing (and we can fix it). <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">00:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)</em>
::::::I  would have done a screen shot, but  with  my  desktop  frozen I  couldn't  even do  that. Anyway, you'll  be pleased to  know, at least  from  me, that  the problem  appears to  have abated; I am  now using  'secure connection' in  my  prefs but  I'm not  sure it's that  which  has done the trick. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 03:18, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::I've just  checked -  I  do  indeed have <nowiki>importScript('User:Quarl/wikipage.js');</nowiki> in  my  vector.js page, but  without  looking, I  can't  actually remember what  it does. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 03:22, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::: Your problem probably abated because I fixed the script :) :) <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">04:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)</em>
:::::::: Thanks :)  [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 05:44, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::::I know that Firefox has this weird quirk in that if you have visited a secure version of any website it will force that one to be the choice the next time you visit the site. You have to go into the browser history and delete every https version of the website and then it will fix itself. That being said, it's a real pain in the ass when some new change is made to the MediaWiki software and it's set as default on in preferences for already registered users.—[[User:Ryulong|<span style="color:blue;">Ryulong</span>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span>]]) 06:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::Yes, I  was aware of that  as a long-time user of FF -  the solution  was to  clear the cache and load the page again, but  this Wikipedia issue took  me by  surprise because I  tried everything  and it  didn't  work. I met  one of the FF devs at  Wikimania in  Hong Kong and I'll  give him  a ping. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 06:44, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::I don't have Quarl's script installed, so whatever ^demon altered has not helped me. Nor has clearing my Firefox cache.<span style="font-family: Papyrus">[[User:RolandR|RolandR]] ([[User talk:RolandR|talk]])</span> 11:14, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User%3ARolandR%2Fvector.js&diff=570665643&oldid=518790755 You did]. I removed it for now, assuming that there was still something wrong with it. If you install userscripts, you need to be aware that they might break at any time. If you don't want such problems, don't install userscripts. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 12:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

:{{replyto|^demon}} what does it mean to have [//en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)&diff=570584606&oldid=570583672 "users <nowiki>[...]</nowiki> geotargetted"]? <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nabla|Nabla]] ([[User talk:Nabla|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nabla|contribs]]) 08:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
::It is explained somewhere in the mush above - it means users in some countries like China where https use automatically triggers suspicion from the authorities are being automatically exempted from this.&nbsp;[[User:Mogism|Mogism]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Mogism#top|talk]]) 08:19, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::: Just to further expand on this. It's not that it triggers suspicion, it's that China and Iran actively block HTTPS access to the site. So we setup some stuff in MediaWiki & wmf-config that skips the redirect from HTTP or HTTPS if your IP address originates from China or Iran. This is in contrast to our original plan, which was to just disable secure login for the various zhwikis and fawikis (which would have kept Chinese and Iranians from editing say...Commons or Meta). <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">14:53, 29 August 2013 (UTC)</em>
::::Thank you. I'd say, then, you are (geo)targeting ''regions'', not ''users'', i.e. not specific users. I did not thought it was so, but it sounded like it, but that is possibly fault of my not so good English language skills. Again, thanks. - [[User:Nabla|Nabla]] ([[User talk:Nabla|talk]]) 21:13, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:Ah thought it was just me, but as it's easily fixed, I'm OK. Carry on. '''[[User:Lugnuts|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Lugnuts</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:Lugnuts|Dick Laurent is dead]]</sup> 10:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

:: ''' Seriously '''  stop flaming the devs.  They announced this change in multiple places.   I saw announcements about it in Wikiepdia.   My understanding was the login would be a secure page, but after that,  you would be send to a regular wiki page. That doesn't seem to be happening and , yes, '''Firefox''' hates it, no the proposed fix doesn't work.  '''I.E 9 ''' appears to be ok with the change, and '''Chrome''' appears to be ok with the change.     Switch over to Chrome for the moment and the devs will address the problem with Firefox. <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:0.50x;">[[User:KoshVorlon|<span style="color:blue;background:white">&nbsp;'''K'''osh'''V'''orlon</span>]].<span style="color:white;background:blue;">&nbsp;'''W'''e '''a'''re '''a'''ll '''K'''osh ...&nbsp;</span></span> 11:44, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::That is an extremely arrogant response. In the first place, I certainly saw no such notification. I'm not denying that they were posted, but I'm sure that I can't be the only editor who was unaware that this would be happening. Secondly, I doubt that anyone realised the possible implications, the bugs and incompatibilities which make the new system a nightmare for some editors. And thirdly, why should I be obliged to change my preferred browser for one I do not wish to use, in order to compensate for the shortcomings of this change? I hope it doesn't come to this, but if forced to chose between  Firefox and Wikipedia I would chose Firefox every time. <span style="font-family: Papyrus">[[User:RolandR|RolandR]] ([[User talk:RolandR|talk]])</span> 11:51, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::: If you mean my response,  it's not intended to be arrogant.  I'm a webmaster as well, so I understand the dev's position (somewhat), I also understand why changes have to be made without discussion.  Perhaps because of this, I'm more apt to see notices from the devs.   I also know flaming the devs won't fix this issue either.  
I've monkeyed around in Firefox, including  (about:config) and what it looks like is Firefox doesn't handle SSL requests correctly  (firefox 23.0.1 )  It DOES have TLS avaialable in about:config,  TLS 0 = SSL3, but it doesn't appear to process correctly, event the site itself doesn't seem to render correctly that way (nor will it when a range of TLS max = 3 Min =0 is given ).
<p> '''Devs''' - If I may suggest, next time a software change is needed, ask for testers (and yes I'll volunteer )   to vet  your changes before they're released. That way most of the major problems can be caught ahead of time.  <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:0.50x;">[[User:KoshVorlon|<span style="color:blue;background:white">&nbsp;'''K'''osh'''V'''orlon</span>]].<span style="color:white;background:blue;">&nbsp;'''W'''e '''a'''re '''a'''ll '''K'''osh ...&nbsp;</span></span> 13:25, 29 August 2013 (UTC)</p>
*I'm another poor sap who despite multiple daily visits was blissfully unaware of the switch to https. Anyway, here's another unforeseen side-effect: Reflinks and Citationbot don't work any more. I've tried changing my preferences to switch off https (I don't give a flyf... whether the NSA or anybody else tracks my edit record). Unfortunately, nothing changes and I keep being thrown to https. Why can such changes not be opt-in instead of opt-out? Using https has always been something that the paranoid among us could choose if they wanted to. If it means not having Reflinks and Citationbot any more, I don't want it. Thanks. --[[User:Randykitty|Randykitty]] ([[User talk:Randykitty|talk]]) 14:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
**The community supported tools will get fixed, it might just take the volunteers a day or two. If you want to be insecure, you can choose to do so in your preferences. It requires logging out and back in (for every specific wikimedia wiki). I'd call that being dumb, but do what you want in that regard. Also the login process itself will always be secure now, to protect your password. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 14:47, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:::As stated below and in my post above, that doesn't work. And ''why'' am I being dumb? I've used http for years now and (apart perhaps from clogging up the NSA's files) I have never experienced any problem, never had any password hacked, etc. --[[User:Randykitty|Randykitty]] ([[User talk:Randykitty|talk]]) 15:06, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::::I've accidentally left my front door unlocked a couple of times when I've been out all day, yet have never been burgled. Nonetheless, I try to remember to lock the door anyway. The potential for someone to crack your account still exists, even though no-one has yet done so to your knowledge. (I respect your right to make an ''informed'' decision on the best balance of security vs. convenience for yourself. I am commenting here so yourself and others are better informed when making their decision.) –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 17:14, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:: Actually, That doesn't work DJ.  I tried that and I still get to https  versions of  the wiki :)  <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:0.50x;">[[User:KoshVorlon|<span style="color:blue;background:white">&nbsp;'''K'''osh'''V'''orlon</span>]].<span style="color:white;background:blue;">&nbsp;'''W'''e '''a'''re '''a'''ll '''K'''osh ...&nbsp;</span></span> 14:52, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
:: @KoshVorlon: We did, I'm sorry you missed the notice! We enabled this on various test wikis & mediawiki.org earlier in the week and called for testers. We definitely did get people to test this, it wasn't just a small group saying "well it works for me so let's go." :) <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">14:57, 29 August 2013 (UTC)</em>

::: No problem.  I'll man up and take partial responsibility for missing any message that was sent via the interface.
I've disabled them, so any that were sent were missed because I have that setting on.    Anyrate,  it looks like only Firefox is affected as it can't handle SSL 3.   (In case anyone's wondering, a javascript is involved with the SSL change over

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.js/secure_new.js   This one ].  Turning off javascript won't solve the problem as the re-direct is on wiki's side  :)  <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:0.50x;">[[User:KoshVorlon|<span style="color:blue;background:white">&nbsp;'''K'''osh'''V'''orlon</span>]].<span style="color:white;background:blue;">&nbsp;'''W'''e '''a'''re '''a'''ll '''K'''osh ...&nbsp;</span></span> 16:44, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::::If you've disabled messages or have developed a case of [[banner blindness]], then you might want to subscribe to [[meta:Tech/News]].  [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 16:55, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

:::: Actually I just set up a collapsible box for the sitenotice on my page , but [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Snippets/forceHTTPS_cookie  | THIS caught my eye on the list ]  since it shows HTTPS being forced,  possibly it could be un-forced :) <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:0.50x;">[[User:KoshVorlon|<span style="color:blue;background:white">&nbsp;'''K'''osh'''V'''orlon</span>]].<span style="color:white;background:blue;">&nbsp;'''W'''e '''a'''re '''a'''ll '''K'''osh ...&nbsp;</span></span> 17:52, 29 August 2013 (UTC)


::::: looks like the https switchover broker something in wiki: <br><br>

<nowiki>  
Timestamp: 8/29/2013 2:57:19 PM
Error: ReferenceError: hookEvent is not defined
Source File: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Gadget-popups.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript&570545406
Line: 7678</nowiki><br><br>


<span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:0.50x;">[[User:KoshVorlon|<span style="color:blue;background:white">&nbsp;'''K'''osh'''V'''orlon</span>]].<span style="color:white;background:blue;">&nbsp;'''W'''e '''a'''re '''a'''ll '''K'''osh ...&nbsp;</span></span> 19:02, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
*I guess the https is also wreaking havoc at [[WP:UAA]], where HBC AIV helperbot5 seems to have disappeared. Also, I used to have an improved diff displayed automatically, but now have to expressly click it, otherwise it won't come up. I may be dumb (see above), but I really don't like wasting time on trivialities like this. --[[User:Randykitty|Randykitty]] ([[User talk:Randykitty|talk]]) 19:25, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I investigated in searching why I was still redirected to https even after having unchecked the checkbox and disconnected-reconnected many times; it is due to the presence of two cookies (names enwikiforceHTTPS) and only one is deleted, so you are still redirected to https ([[:bugzilla:53536]]); this happens with Firefox and Opera, I suspect Chrome delete the two cookies (which make the un-https working). Perhaps the second sub-thread here (Kudpung 22:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)) is partly due to this bug (at least the problem to un-https).<br />A temporary solution is:
# uncheck the preference;
# delete the two cookies named enwikiforceHTTPS (domains en.wikipedia.org and .wikipedia.org; in Firefox: Edit > Preferences > Privacy > Delete cookies or Display cookies, search these cookies and delete them),
and you should stay on http. ~ [[User:Seb35|Seb35]] [[User talk:Seb35|<small>[^_^]</small>]] [[:fr:User talk:Seb35|[fr]]] 01:19, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:This isn't working for me. I don't have these cookies at all. And every so often, despite having the preference properly set, I get taken to the secure site.—[[User:Ryulong|<span style="color:blue;">Ryulong</span>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span>]]) 18:09, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
::You mentioned Firefox earlier: is this the browser that you are using? --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 18:14, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

{{tracked|14950}}
What is truly galling about this is that there appears to be no way to have a universal opt-out of HTTPS.  Everytime I go to a different foreign language wiki, or a different project, it slams me into HTTPS again and I have to go the preferences section of that project to undo it.  I don't need the security advantages of HTTPS, which I will admit are real, and it adds a minor irritant when I copy a link in a foreign language wiki and have to manually edit the link before I have the website translated. (Google Translate does not support HTTPS.)  [[User:Carolina wren|Carolina wren]] ([[User talk:Carolina wren|talk]]) 04:44, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:This isn't just a problem for the HTTPS opt-out, but for all preferences. With the exception of your e-mail address, just about everything in [[Special:Preferences]] must be set separately on every wiki. [[bugzilla:14950|Bug 14950]] has been around for a while. –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 17:14, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:I had the same "couldn't parse page name" error as others above, and I've realised the reason we all had Quarl's script installed was due to the [[User:John Vandenberg/Deletion sorting tool|Deletion sorting tool]], used at AfD. I've made a note there that this script conflicts with secure log-in. [[User:Fences and windows|<span style="background-color:white; color:red;">Fences</span>]]<span style="background-color:white; color:#808080;">&amp;</span>[[User talk:Fences and windows|<span style="background-color:white; color:black;">Windows</span>]] 23:14, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Every time I go to [http://toolserver.org/~dispenser/cgi-bin/webreflinks.py the reflinks tool] I get forced onto the HTTPS version of the site. What's up with that?—[[User:Ryulong|<span style="color:blue;">Ryulong</span>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<span style="color:gold;">琉竜</span>]]) 19:49, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

== What's messing with Citation templates? ==

As of this morning, and not before, I  noticed red errors about "Missing or empty URL" and "|accessdate= requires |url=" all over the reference sections of both [[Audie Murphy]] and [[Audie Murphy honors and awards]].  On the honors and awards page, the very first reference that has the red error about the missing URL, this is the exact citation:

:cite web|title=Memo from Major General Kenneth G. Wickham, listing Murphy's awards and decorations|publisher=U.S. National Archives and Records Administration|date=October 20, 1966

Even on some of the red-errored citations in the main article, if I go in and delete the blanks for URL and Accessdate, it still shows up as errors.
Given that these articles have been in 2013 subject to scrutiny by Peer Review, GA Review, and a fairly recent A-Class Review at Military History project, this would have been noticed.   I monitor these articles everyday.  This just showed up today. 

And yet, as I write this the article [[Audie Murphy filmography]] does not have the red errors.  But it did about half an hour ago.  What is going on with the citation templates? [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 17:32, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

:One thing I am noticing, not only on the above pages, but even this one typing on, and all articles right now.  Below where it usually tells you the hidden categories and templates used in the page and pages transcluded...it's all blank. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 18:00, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::Error display was recently enabled for citation templates, see [[Help:CS1 errors]]. {{tl|cite web}} is not the right template if there's no URL available. [[User talk:Rjwilmsi|<span style="color: darkgreen">'''''Rjwilmsi'''''</span>]] 18:01, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:::So what is the correct template?  Please advise A lot of editors are going to have to redo some articles. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 18:04, 1 September 2013 (UTC)</span><!--Template:Undated-->

* '''Combination of cite design flaws and CSS bugs:''' The severe rules for {[[Template:Cite_web|cite_web]]} now demand a "url=" with a "title=" parameter, even if the URL is an unrelated website (can be nonsense) or else get "{{color|#BB0011|Missing or empty URL}}" in the footnotes. So, when coding a {cite_web} with unknown URL, then set "url=http ://callmemaybe.com" or whatever. There is an unrelated bug which sometimes omits those red-error messages, probably due to handling of the related CSS class which styles the messages. Try re-redisplaying the page, and the CSS class might be reset to again show those red messages for [[wp:CS1]]-cite errors. -[[User:Wikid77|Wikid77]] ([[User talk:Wikid77|talk]]) 18:07, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
*:If you don't know the URL of a website, you clearly are not referring to it therefore should not be using it as a reference. –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 20:32, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:We have been incrementally enabling error checking on the {{cs1}} templates. Some of these errors were enabled this week.

:Here, is a citation using {{tl|cite web}} without linking a web site:

::{{cite web|title=Memo from Major General Kenneth G. Wickham, listing Murphy's awards and decorations|publisher=U.S. National Archives and Records Administration|date=October 20, 1966}}

:From the linked help page:

;Missing or empty |url{{=}}
:This error message is reported only by {{tlx|cite web}} [[Help:Citation Style 1|CS1 citations]] where {{para|url}} is blank or omitted. The {{para|url}} parameter is required so that {{para|title}} can link to the web resource. To resolve this error, provide a value for {{para|url}} or use a more appropriate CS1 citation.

;|accessdate= requires |url{{=}}
:The {{para|accessdate}} is the date that the web resource addressed by {{para|url}} was added to the article. If {{para|accessdate}} has been included in the citation without {{para|url}} then this message appears. If the citation does not use a web link, then {{para|accessdate}} is redundant and should be removed.

:--<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 18:09, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Pardon me while I get confused by "a more appropriate CSI citation".  I don't know which one that would be. Are you telling me that if I pick any cite template but cite web, it will resolve it?  Or what?  [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 18:14, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::::{{tl|Cite web}} is intended for a web site, but the citation has no website linked. {{tl|Cite book}} may be more appropriate. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 18:19, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::<s>Cite book also triggers the error.  As do the others listed on [[Help:Citation Style 1|CS1 citations]], because they all have a blank for the URL.  And if there's no URL, there's an error message.</s> [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 18:25, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::OK, it's a little tedious going forward, but I think maybe I got it.  Use the Cite book template, then go back afterwards and manually delete "url=" that it puts in there.  Seems a step backwards for Wikipedia.  Just wondering how many articles out there are now showing all these red errors when the original editor was confident they did it correctly.  And how many errors are going to be triggered by new edits done by editors who don't know all these nitpicking tricks that have to be done on the cite templates. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 18:31, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::: There were over 50,000 articles which had similar errors. -[[User:Wikid77|Wikid77]] ([[User talk:Wikid77|talk]]) 19:24, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Blank {{para|url}} does not cause this error. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 18:52, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::Ok.  But taking it out resolved it. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 18:54, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Lua has made it much easier to detect these little errors that have gone unnoticed for years. They vary from the inappropriate that worked after a fashion (such as {{tlx|cite web}} for a printed source) through typos (such as {{para|dtae}} for {{para|date}}) to the completely unimplemented (such as {{para|printer}}). Detection of all of these problems was implemented several months ago; most error messages were hidden but opt-in. Periodically, some of them have been revealed to all users, with the latest batch being a couple of days ago, which is why you're suddenly seeing them; whereas those (like me) who {{diff|User:Redrose64/common.css|prev|548977399|opted in already}} will have been seeing those messages for some time. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 18:56, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::::This was the last set of error checking to be enabled, so you don't need that CSS to see them anymore. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 18:59, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks to all of you for your help and guidance on my resolving this where I have noticed it.[[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 19:06, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
: Thank you for realizing how using {cite book} was the fastest fix, until we get time to recheck those 130 cites which displayed the 90 [[wp:CS1]] red-error messages in the major article "[[Audie Murphy]]" (1,640 pageviews per day). I can understand it was quite a nightmare in a highly visible article which had been improved for years. -[[User:Wikid77|Wikid77]] ([[User talk:Wikid77|talk]]) 19:24, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::The citations you see on that article now are mostly mine, with some exceptions. Revamping the article  starting in Feb 2013 necessitated researching and replacing almost all the existing citations. I didn't do it alone, but it was a step through the looking glass, and everything I had learned before at Wikipedia seems minor in comparison. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 21:00, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I have [[Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 3#What happened here?|already asked, elsewhere]], for these warnings to be turned off while the proposed bot fixes the existing errors. They can then be turned on again to warn when new instances of the error occur. {{Ping|Redrose64}} {{ping|Gadget850}} How's that going? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 22:07, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
:Why me? I {{diff|Help talk:Citation Style 1|prev|569777536|stopped watching}} [[Help talk:Citation Style 1]] over a week ago. I have little interest in [[WP:BOTREQ]], mainly because I have no bot to operate, nor have I ever made a bot request. I have also never made an edit to [[Module:citation/CS1]] or its submodules. Compared to Wiki markup, Lua code is a nightmare to trace through (I have few of the Modules on my watchlist, mainly for their talk pages), so I have no idea how or where to turn off the error messages. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:46, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::I'm savvy with template markup, but not Lua. I'm just applying changes made by the very few Lua programmers involved since the pages are edit-protected. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 08:23, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

=== Fix Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration to reset each hidden=true ===
The numerous excessive red-error messages, in the [[wp:CS1]] cites, can be re-hidden by fixing [[Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration]] to reset each newly activated message, back to "hidden=true" (set "false" on 26 August 2013 by User:Gadget850, see: [//en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration&diff=570299410&oldid=556407394 dif410]). For example, the message named by anchor = 'cite_web_url' (which displays "Missing or empty |url=") can again be hidden, as during the past 5 months, by setting the associated variable as "hidden=true". Do a similar reset to hide other messages which are flooding major articles with annoying messages about fixing dozens of URL parameters or other tedious busywork. -[[User:Wikid77|Wikid77]] ([[User talk:Wikid77|talk]]) 21:23, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
:Am I reading this correctly?  That if an Admin fixes this at CS1, that will take care of the existing ones?  Because I'm noticing these errors all over the place as I'm browsing.  Whatever the GF discussions behind what has recently unleashed this across Wikipedia, it's not logical to think there are enough knowledgeable editors with the initiative to go through and correct each and every one. Especially not the casual new editors Wikipedia is trying to attract. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 21:31, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
::: Indeed, Maile66, the cite error messages can be quickly re-hidden to match the consensus, the way many people use cite templates; see below: "[[#Consensus in usage prefers cite errors]]". -[[User:Wikid77|Wikid77]] ([[User talk:Wikid77|talk]]) 00:16, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
::If you hide error messages, the problem won't go away - you're just sweeping it under the carpet. The error messages help, because they expose everyday typos and so a fix can happen within minutes instead of a year or two down the line. Remember, {{user|Helpful Pixie Bot}}, which detected and fixed many of these within weeks, is permanently out of commission. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:20, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
:::In a perfect world, or at least one where Wikipedia was as up-to-snuff as any other online fill-in process:
::: (a) That bot's daddy would be brought back from the Land of the Blocked, sins forgiven and totally rehabilitated
:::(b) All citation templates would have red-lettered "Required" next to the items that must be filled out. On a drop-down menu, the "Insert" button would not work unless the "Required" was filled out. Manually inserting a template otherwise without the "Required" information would not work.[[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 22:47, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
Some perspective from someone who has been working on cleaning up these errors for three months: 
*These errors point out minor problems with citations, each of which takes less than a minute to fix, on average.
*Yes, they are red.
*When I started working on the backlog of these errors, there were more than 140,000 of them in total (see [[:Category:Articles with incorrect citation syntax]]). 
*I have fixed more than 10,000 of them by myself in three months.
*The total number of errors is now about 120,000.
*A bot could fix another 45,000 of them in a single category (accessdate without url) in a very short time.
*As far as I know, there are fewer than ten editors, probably more like three or four, working to resolve these errors in large numbers.
*If we had a couple dozen editors working to resolve these errors, along with a clever bot or two, we could get the total number of errors down to a few thousand in a couple of months. 
If all of the people who are complaining about these errors would dedicate some time to fixing them instead, they would be gone in relatively short order. Let's get the red out! – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 06:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

* '''Cleanup will span years, showing WP's glaring errors:''' If 20,000 corrections took 3 months, then 120,000 more will likely span ~2 years. I was also hopeful, 5 months ago, to imagine, "''Wow, once 2 million readers see all those {{color|#BB0000|'''glaring red-error'''}} messages, surely they will rush to fix them within a month!"'' However, not so. We counted the cleanups, over about 2 months, and it was the typical few here and there. Just like those top, grandstanding tag-boxes, ''"This page is an orphan"'' or such, few people wanted to rescue the poor-child pages, adopt them with wikilinks, or spend time on "care and feeding" of text. Everyone knows, ''"Do not air dirty laundry in public"'' (hint: they will not rush to wash it). Instead, people expected someone else would see the problem, and the red-error messages continued to scar thousands of pages for another year, showing the "horrible" red marks of Wikipedia's failed text, where someone appended the date, when they read a source, and it was severely noted as hidden, extra text after a cite (OMG, what could that date possibly mean at the end a cite?!?). Then the date is marked in red, which yells, "Invalid text (help)" help me!!! I mean seriously, who would even understand how a date, after a cite, was even a mystery problem needing "help"?? Listen, we do not need a Bot to fix these, because Lua is fast enough to auto-correct many problems during reformat: so with extra text after a cite, just show it there, no red. If someone misspelled "auhtor=" just use as "author" and keep moving. We will likely find 90% of errors to be auto-corrected by Lua checking the text, as roughly 108,000 of 120,000 auto-corrected, to leave 12,000 pages for human, manual inspection, as 12,000 possible major problems because the 90% of easy problems would be auto-corrected by Lua. Meanwhile, we see another obvious fix-it cleanup rate: the missing-URL cases are being fixed nearly 10-per-day, so among 9,000 pages, expect that fix-it rate to span over 2.5 years of red-error messages. We need to shutoff the red messages, and talk (again) about auto-correcting the parameters in the Lua code. -[[User:Wikid77|Wikid77]] ([[User talk:Wikid77|talk]]) 09:00, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
::Some alternative math: There are 117,000 articles left (about 3,000 have been fixed in the last two days, in other words). A bot can fix 45,000 quickly, leaving 72,000. One dedicated editor eliminated 10,000+ articles from the error categories in three months. A dozen dedicated editors could completely clear out the error categories in two months, assuming that the errors are fixable in approximately the same average time as the ones I have been working on. Judicious use of bots to fix problems like the "auhtor" parameter above would shorten that time even more. 
::This second part is anecdotal, but in my experience, much fewer than 90% of the problems can be auto-corrected. It's probably more like 50 or 60%, including the 45,000 articles with accessdate errors. Because there has been no error-flagging in the past, all manner of crazy stuff has been put into citation templates. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 13:23, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

=== Consensus in usage prefers cite errors ===
We had extensive discussions in April/May 2013, about not showing all those [[wp:CS1]] red-error messages in thousands of major articles, because people were not fixing the errors quickly, even after weeks of watching for cite updates. An ongoing survey of articles with cite-errors confirmed how thousands of editors were actively ''ignoring'' the cite-error conditions and merely kept coding {cite_web} or {cite_book} despite the error restrictions having been carefully explained ''for years'' in the template /doc pages. In fact, get this:&nbsp; even with the glaring red-error messages showing a cite-error with a big message, some editors were still actively adding cite templates with invalid parameters, willfully refusing to fix the cites to avoid the red-error messages. The result of the discussion was clear: there was ''no consensus'' to show the [[wp:CS1]] red-error messages, which did not herd the users to fix the cite parameters, and in fact, the consensus of usage was to allow the "invalid" parameters as a choice of the editors working on each page. People simply did not buy-in to the ''"you cannot think that way"'' restrictions in cite parameters. The alternative procedure, to trim the flagged cite parameters, was to quietly log the invalid cases into maintenance categories which some concerned Wikipedians could laboriously update to one-by-one fix the questionable cite parameters in thousands of pages (over 50,000 flagged pages in April). For example, one category where people keeping calling {cite_web} without a "url=" parameter still had over 9,000 pages by August 2013:
::* [[:Category:Pages_using_web_citations_with_no_URL]] - current count, {{PAGESINCATEGORY:Pages_using_web_citations_with_no_URL}} pages
The consensus of usage by thousands of editors was basically, ''"We do not care about mandatory URL parameters''" and people kept coding many cite templates with only title, date, author or publisher, plus accessdate (etc.). It is just counterproductive, to fight the consensus of usage, and try to force people to set unwanted parameters by scarring their edits with glaring red-error messages which some of them ignore. -[[User:Wikid77|Wikid77]] ([[User talk:Wikid77|talk]]) 00:16, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
* Since there is a clear and overwhelming consensus I will remove all error checking. Without error messages, there is no need to fix issues, so I will delete the categories. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 00:27, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
::Can a script be created, or does one exist, to check an individual article for citation errors? Without being alerted that an error exists it will be considerably harder to find and fix them, for those of us in the minority who would rather fix the errors.—[[User:John Cline|John Cline]] ([[User talk:John Cline|talk]]) 00:38, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
:::: Messages can be re-hidden, as during past 5 months, then set personal custom CSS to show messages in pages. For example, edit your User:XX/vector.css pages and insert the line:
:::::::: .citation-comment { display: inline !important; color: red; }
:::: Users with custom citation messages can edit according to the warnings; however, prepare to discuss updates with editors of each article, who might prefer parameter settings considered as "invalid" and some users dislike cite templates totally and want to replace all with literal cite text. -[[User:Wikid77|Wikid77]] ([[User talk:Wikid77|talk]]) 05:29, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Perhaps something like [[User:GregU/dashes.js]], only for citations instead of dashes. What the dash.js does, is add an itsy bitsy tab at the top of any article, and you just click the dash tab. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 00:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

::@Editor [[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]: Do not.

::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 00:46, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
:::At this point I am retiring from the task of maintaining the citation system. There should be enough notes in the cite error messages and the citation templates for others to pick up. Over the past few years this has literally been a thankless task. Discussions ramble all over the place and become pointless and useless and we end up with multiple claims of consensus. I'm tired and this is no longer fun. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 01:01, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
::::Please accept my belated thanks for your service to this encyclopedia, over the years. You were one of the first wikipedians, let alone administrators, who I interacted with when I was a new editor. I continued editing to this day as a direct result of those interactions. You earned my respect long ago, and will always be esteemed by me.—[[User:John Cline|John Cline]] ([[User talk:John Cline|talk]]) 01:13, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

::::This is regrettable.  I for one am sorry to see you leave.  You did much good work here and even though most editors ever hardly gave your labors a second thought, I suspect that they, as I do, appreciate all of the good work you did.

::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 01:21, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::Thanks. Time to take a break, then find something I can be passionate about again. And after cleaning out MediaWiki messages, templates, categories and other citation related pages, my watchlist is 1141 pages lighter. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 01:49, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::IMO, the red is of little use for readers, but it's useful for editors who can correct these errors. i think that it should not be all that difficult to make it so registered users will still see red/warnings, and anons will have the warnings hidden (maybe using [[Mediawiki:Group-users.css]] ? i'm not 100% sure, but i think it should be possible, without even depending on JS). peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 06:31, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

:::::::That is an interesting idea.  Is there a css that applies only to logged-in users?  If not, how difficult would it be to create such a css?  And if there is, how difficult would it be to add css that would do what Editor [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] has suggested?

:::::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 15:20, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::::(untested): i believe the page in my message (redlinked, for now) should work. we do use [[MediaWiki:Group-sysop.css]] for CSS that only affects sysops. again, i did not test this feature, but it is my understanding that the same thing can be done for any user group, and i think all registered users belong to the group "Users". peace - [[User:קיפודנחש|קיפודנחש (aka kipod)]] ([[User talk:קיפודנחש|talk]]) 17:07, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::Just so I have clarity.  The goal is to hide {{cs1}} error messages from anonymous readers but show the error messages to logged in users.  To do that we must:
:::::::::#Set {{code|1=citation_config.error_conditions ['error message'].hidden=true|lang=lua}} in [[Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration]].  This then makes the error messages have this styling: {{code|1=<span style="display:none;font-size:100%" class="error citation-comment">$1</span>|lang=html4strict}}
:::::::::#Create [[Mediawiki:Group-users.css]], hoping that this is a valid page name.
:::::::::#Add this css to show all CS1 error messages to logged in users: {{code|.citation-comment {display: inline !important;} /* show all Citation Style 1 error messages */||lang=css}}

:::::::::Have I got this right? I know that I can tweak Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox so that once Mediawiki:Group-users.css is created and the css added, this can be tested. Any idea where one goes to ask if this is possible?  Any admins out there willing to assist in this experiment?
:::::::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 23:22, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:{{od|::::::::}}Sadly this won't work. Neither [[MediaWiki:Group-user.css]] nor [[MediaWiki:Group-users.css]] are recognised by MediaWiki. If they were, those links would be blue. Pages in the MediaWiki namespace are blue links if MediaWiki recognises the name, even if local admins have not created the page. (E.g. [[MediaWiki:Group-bot.css]] is a blue link, though the page does not exist here.) For something close you could use [[MediaWiki:Group-autoconfirmed.css]] instead.
:It seems the "user" group is a special case that doesn't get its own CSS page. The "*" group (all users, including IPs) is another special case, but at least it makes sense not to have CSS for that since [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] also applies to all users. –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 13:32, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

::So conceptually it will work right?  The only difference is that newly registered editors who haven't met the 4-day, 10-edit criteria don't see the CS1 error messages.  The list of stuff to do then changes to this:
::#Set {{code|1=citation_config.error_conditions ['error message'].hidden=true|lang=lua}} in [[Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration]].  This then makes the error messages have this styling: {{code|1=<span style="display:none;font-size:100%" class="error citation-comment">$1</span>|lang=html4strict}}
::#Add the following css to [[MediaWiki:Group-autoconfirmed.css]]:
:::::{{code|.citation-comment {display: inline !important;} /* show all Citation Style 1 error messages */||lang=css}}
::Can be quickly tested in the same manner as I described above.  Does this work?  Any admins out there who will help me test this?
::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 19:28, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Yes, that should work as you describe. I can't try it myself, not being an admin here. (And if I were an admin, I'd probably want to see a wider consensus before implementing a site-wide change.) –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 21:19, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

::::Understood.  There seems to be a necessary order of things.  First figure out if the proposition is technically possible.  Second, make a brief test to prove that it works without inappropriate side effects.  Third, some sort of wide-spread RfC to figure out if the proposition is really needed.

::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 09:09, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

=== RfC ===

Should we turn of the latest batch of error messages, temporarily, until this bot (or another) has completed fixing those that can be automatically resolved?  Please comment at  [[Help talk:Citation Style 1#RfC]]. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 13:49, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

== templates on mobile site ==

Hello, I am using the Mobile Wikipedia site but I don't see any templates anymore. I used to see them before and they were useful for navigation for me. Is there any way to enable templates on the mobile Wikipedia site?  [[User:Skronie|Skronie]] ([[User talk:Skronie|talk]]) 03:22, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
:Which templates are those? Please give an example of a page which is not working as you feel that it should; also an indication of which bits are missing. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 11:08, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

:Hi!    This is a similar, and possibly the same, problem.
:In the mobile view of [[Oocyte]], for example, the template [[Template:succession box|succession box]], which is at the end of the article text, is hidden by the last (collapsed) section.  The succession box rightly should always be visible.
:Is there a way to make it always visible? Or, is there a way to "break out" of the sections?
:Thanks. [[User:Saintrain|Saintrain]] ([[User talk:Saintrain|talk]]) 13:17, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
::It's "hidden by the last (collapsed) section" because it's ''part'' of the last section. Each section extends from a section heading to the next heading of the same or higher level, or to the end of the page. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 15:34, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


:::Thanks {{reply to|Redrose64}}. I know that's the problem. Is there a solution? 
:::Is it possible to "end" the sections? ''Succession box'' implies a continuation, so putting it at the head of the article, above the sections, doesn't quite make sense. Hiding it in an unrelated section doesn't help either. Hence my questions. 
:::Is it possible to form a section that doesn't collapse? Some sort of template maybe? [[User:Saintrain|Saintrain]] ([[User talk:Saintrain|talk]]) 04:10, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
::::In mobile view, the sections are defined as a series of {{tag|div}} elements. The software that converts the wiki markup into HTML inserts the appropriate tags as follows:
::::{{tag|div|o|params=id="content_0" class="content_block openSection"}} after the page heading
::::{{tag|div|c}}{{tag|div|o|params=class="section"}} before each level 2 heading
::::{{tag|div|c}} at the end of the article
::::I suspected that it might be possible to force early closure of a section by adding a {{tag|div|c}} into the wiki markup ({{oldid|Wikipedia:Sandbox|572035184|as here}}, but that's unbalanced, so it's removed by software that tidies up unbalanced closing tags, so it doesn't survive into the final page as served. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 10:44, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::Thanks again {{reply to|Redrose64}}. Oh well. Probably not even worth a feature request to MW.  Such is life.  [[User:Saintrain|Saintrain]] ([[User talk:Saintrain|talk]]) 18:25, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

:::any template that shows up fine on the desktop site like [[Template:Hindu philosophy]] shows up as blank on the mobile Wikipedia site. Any idea why? Can I reenable them somehow? [[User:Skronie|Skronie]] ([[User talk:Skronie|talk]]) 16:48, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
:::see this: [//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Hindu_philosophy] any answers? Thanks [[User:Skronie|Skronie]] ([[User talk:Skronie|talk]]) 03:32, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
::::I looked at it yesterday and again today: it's showing for me. The only issue that I notice is that it's full-width - but I believe that boxes always are in mobile view. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 10:44, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::Really? The [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Hindu_philosophy template content] does not show up for me even in my desktop browser. I'm using Chrome on both mobile and desktop. It seems OK on firefox though. [[User:Skronie|Skronie]] ([[User talk:Skronie|talk]]) 04:03, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::You didn't actually state your browser before this, so I've tested on Chrome 29.0.1547.66 m - and it's all there, just as it is in Firefox 23.0.1 --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 12:45, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
This very same issue occurs on all archived/closed discussions (RfA, XfD, ANI, you name it); the closing template, along with the contents of discussions do not appear. [[User:HMSSolent|<span style="color: blue">'''hmssolent'''</span>]]\<sup>[[User talk:HMSSolent|<span style="color: brown">''You rang?''</span>]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/HMSSolent|<span style="color: green">ship's log</span>]]</sub> 11:59, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
:I'm talking about *any* template here, not just archived/closed discussions. I should've mentioned I was using the chrome mobile Browser before. [http://m.imgur.com/SVRrYHE This] is a screenshot of how the template looks for me. Im using the latest chrome.[[User:Skronie|Skronie]] ([[User talk:Skronie|talk]]) 16:02, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
::I think we need to get [[User:Maryana (WMF)]] or someone else from her team to join this discussion.  [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 18:04, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Thanks. I have requested her on the talk page to have a look. [[User:Skronie|Skronie]] ([[User talk:Skronie|talk]]) 15:15, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
::::Hi [[User:Skronie|Skronie]] -- it sounds like there's two things here: 1) a bug with templates not showing up in Chrome. I'll raise it with the devs and we'll investigate. And 2) you've got a feature request to force open certain non-lead sections of an article in the mobile view. That might require some wider discussion on the pros and cons. Doing this on an ad-hoc per-article basis wouldn't scale across all the languages and projects we have, so we'd need some programmatic way to detect the templates in question. There's also the question of whether this really improves the user experience or not. My guess, based on the behavior of most readers, is it probably won't make much difference. We know that most mobile readers follow links to Wikipedia from Google or somewhere else on the Internet, only read that one article, and usually only make it through the lead section. I'm guessing the kinds of users who would be interested in seeing that template are experienced editors, and they're able to find it even if it's in a collapsed section because they know exactly where to look. [[User:Maryana (WMF)|Maryana (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Maryana (WMF)|talk]]) 16:47, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::{{ping|Skronie|Maryana (WMF)}} This would be due to [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3AMobile.css&diff=570464813&oldid=570426583 this change]. The best place to discuss would be either [[MediaWiki talk:Mobile.css]] or [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53437 in the bug thread]. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] ([[User talk:Kaldari|talk]]) 18:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

== unencrypted page in login process ==

{{tracked|52206}}

I tried to view my watch list, but the site told me I was not logged in. I followed the link to log in, [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto=Special%3AWatchlist], and when I entered my account name and password, the site redirected my browser to http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:CentralLogin/start?token=1239298853ccbe9a17ca0a2f1f9e1e10 (not the real token). While I don't understand the login mechanism, the redirection to a non-SSL page may indicate a weakness. &mdash;[[User_talk:Rybec|<span style="color: black"><span style="background:#ccccff">rybec</span></span>]] 21:07, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
:I have informed the proper developers of this potential problem —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 09:02, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
::This sounds like [[bugzilla:52206]]. --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 01:51, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

== Pages randomly refuse to display ==

IE8, Windows 7, Monobook.  In the last few days, occasional pages have started not to appear: I go to a page, the elements appear as they're downloaded, but as soon as everything's downloaded, the screen goes white.  Completely white, as if the page had no code on it at all!  At the same time, I know that things are downloading and not simply cached, since the little bar at the bottom right of the browser says "Downloading imagenamehere.png", "Accessing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pagenamehere", etc., until it displays "Done" once completed.  I can view the history page and the edit page fine (although I have to go directly to the URLs, since the tabs don't appear), but if I preview an edit, the screen goes completely white.  I have no clue what's causing this, because it's rare — I've only encountered this on four pages, and all of them are just in the last few days:
*[[:Commons:COM:ADMIN]]
*[[:Commons:COM:VP]]
*[[Norway]]
*[[CAT:CSD]]
*[[Japanese yen]] <small>Added at 02:26, 10 September 2013 (UTC)</small>
At first, I thought it was something weird at Commons, so I asked for help at their VP (using Firefox, which didn't have a problem with either Commons page) but was given a snarky response and nothing that helped to resolve the problem.  Now that I've encountered it on two vastly different pages here, I have no clue at all what's happening.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 23:57, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
:These are the typical effects of a document.write statement being used somewhere in an async executed Javascript. You hardly have any JS installed on this wiki as far as I can tell, so my suspicion is a broken browser extension (which are also JS normally). —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 08:48, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

== Blocking VisualEditor ==

Is there a means of preventing Visual Editor being used on a page? Something like {{tl|nobots}}.  Every time VisEd is used on [[Morse code]] the preformatted text gets screwed. '''[[User:Spinningspark|<span style="background:#fafad2; color:#C08000;">Spinning</span>]][[User talk:Spinningspark|<span style="color:#4840a0;">Spark</span>]]''' 00:39, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

:See {{tl|disable VE top}} and {{tl|disable VE bottom}}, but I'm not sure if it's working at the moment.  Don't forget to put up an editnotice so people kow that you're deliberately "breaking" it.  Also, if you haven't already, then the problem with preformatted text needs to be [[WP:VEF|reported]]/checked to see whether it's already in [[Bugzilla:]].  I don't recall running across that one myself. [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 01:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

:Don't forget to chime in on {{phab|55767}} to remind WMF of how important it is to have an officially supported mechanism to do this.&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 02:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

::I have added the template and it seems to work, even when the whole page is edited.  @[[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)]] I added it as an example to <s>{{phab|53738}}</s> to which it seemed to be related.  Please advise if a separate bug should be opened. '''[[User:Spinningspark|<span style="background:#fafad2; color:#C08000;">Spinning</span>]][[User talk:Spinningspark|<span style="color:#4840a0;">Spark</span>]]''' 09:21, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
:::[[User:Spinningspark]], I'm pretty sure you've got a typo in that bug number.  That one's about some plugin.  [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 16:40, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
::::[[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]], your right.  Try {{phab|53758}} instead. '''[[User:Spinningspark|<span style="background:#fafad2; color:#C08000;">Spinning</span>]][[User talk:Spinningspark|<span style="color:#4840a0;">Spark</span>]]''' 16:57, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::Since there are already several different problems listed in that bug report, then I think adding this one there is acceptable.  If it's not, then someone over at Bugzilla will split them off.  [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 04:33, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
== What happened to my common.css? ==

Last time I edited my common.css, apparently I added this, although I have no memory in doing so:
<pre>
.mw-editsection-link-secondary { visibility: visible !important; }
.mw-editsection-divider { visibility: visible !important; }
.mw-editsection-bracket { visibility: hidden !important; }
</pre>
What exactly does this do? Also, now there seems to be this syntax highlighting thing for the common.css, what's that? Thanks, -- <span class="nowrap">[[User talk:Numbermaniac|<sup style="font-weight:normal">t</sup>]] [[User:Numbermaniac|<span style="color:#07E">numbermaniac</span>]]<sup> [[User:Numbermaniac/edit count|c]]</sup></span> 03:03, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
:This was probably to do with the animated [ edit | edit source ] links that were provided by VisualEditor. The only one of these rules still having any noticeable effect would be the final one, which hides the square brackets surrounding the section edit links. — <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:1px 0 0 1px">[[User:This, that and the other|This, that]]</span> and <span style="border:dashed #666;border-width:0 1px 1px 0">[[User talk:This, that and the other|the other<small> (talk)</small>]]</span> 07:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
::Ah yes, now I remember I added that to stop the animated section edit links because they were breaking my iPad. -- <span class="nowrap">[[User talk:Numbermaniac|<sup style="font-weight:normal">t</sup>]] [[User:Numbermaniac|<span style="color:#07E">numbermaniac</span>]]<sup> [[User:Numbermaniac/edit count|c]]</sup></span> 05:24, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

== Attached KML/Ladrillero Channel ==

I added a {{tlx|Attached KML}} to [[Ladrillero Channel]]. The route of the Channel is shown, but near the Antarktis. Can any one tell me what is wrong?. I took [[Adelaide Avenue]] as example and changed the names and the coords. --Best regards, [[User:Keysanger|Keysanger]] ([[User talk:Keysanger|what?]]) 16:36, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
:Well, I guessed right, and KML is "longitude,latitdue,altitude", not "latitude,longitude,altitude" like one would expect. Seems to work now. [[User:Chris857|Chris857]] ([[User talk:Chris857|talk]]) 16:48, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
*Possibly related to the above - there is a problem with {{tlx|GeoGroup}} described at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates#GeoGroup Template URL encoding errors]]. I think it might be a double [[WP:PF#Paths|{{tlc|urlencode:}}]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 17:06, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks, I thought there were some (hidden) offsets for the coords, but now Google and Bing maps display the route at the right place. Why not WikiMiniAtlas?. --Best regards, [[User:Keysanger|Keysanger]] ([[User talk:Keysanger|what?]]) 22:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
::The data in WMA must be updated. That is the reason. Thanks to all. --Best regards, [[User:Keysanger|Keysanger]] ([[User talk:Keysanger|what?]]) 08:05, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

== Android app: Contact Us link not working ==

{{tracked|52474}}
In the Wikipedia Android app (v 1.3.4), the Contact Us link in the app does not work. It tries to navigate to [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:MobileFeedback&feedbacksource=WikipediaMobile%2F1.2 http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:MobileFeedback&feedbacksource=WikipediaMobile%2F1.2], which says "No such special page". Could this be fixed? I had intended to follow this link to leave some feedback about the app itself, specifically the persistent loading of the Article of the Day page upon startup, which can be annoying. Thanks. --[[User:Jameboy|Jameboy]] ([[User talk:Jameboy|talk]]) 20:24, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
:The problem you are reporting sounds like a potential issue in the code of the MediaWiki software or the server configuration. If the problem is reproducible, it would be nice if somebody who has this issue could send the software bug to the 'Bugzilla' bug tracker by following the instructions [[mw:How to report a bug|How to report a bug]] under product "MediaWiki extensions" and component "MobileFrontend". This is to make developers of the software aware of the issue. If you have done so, please paste the number of the bug report (or the link) here, so others can also inform themselves about the bug's status. Thanks in advance! --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 01:56, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
::I was just gonna file this, but I notice it was already reported a month ago. I've linked the ticked here and gave the devs a gentle nudge. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 18:17, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

== RFC on a new user right for trusted template coders ==

An RFC is under way to determine whether or not to create a new user right that would allow trusted template coders to edit fully protected templates: [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Template editor user right]]. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#000099;">equazcion</span>]] <small style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</small> 10:08, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>

== Edits to en showing up on de contributions ==

Hi all,
Not sure if I am going mad, or if I have found a bug. I was looking at [[:de:Spezial:Benutzerbeiträge/Mdann52|My de contributions]], and a few of my EN edits show up on there. Anyone able to shed any light on this? Thanks, --[[User:Mdann52|<span style="color: Green">'''Mdann'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Mdann52|<span style="color: Red">'''52'''</span>]]<small>[[User talk:Mdann52|<span style="color: Maroon">''talk to me!''</span>]]</small> 14:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
:This is normal. It happens when an article (including its revision history, to satisfy the licence) is imported for translation.—[[User:EmilJ|Emil]]&nbsp;[[User talk:EmilJ|J.]] 14:19, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
== Accounts merged, signature not correct. ==

On 1/12/13 two accounts of mine were merged.  User:Kevinrbing & User:Fortmac were merged in this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:Fortmac&diff=532770745&oldid=532544335.  However, when I go to create a signature on a talk page using \~\~\~\~ kevinrbing appears as the signature instead of fortmac.  See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Katherine_Sheehan or here: [[User:Fortmac|Kevinrbing]] ([[User talk:Fortmac|talk]]) 13:15, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Signed,
[[User:Fortmac|Kevinrbing]] ([[User talk:Fortmac|talk]]) 13:15, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

:In preferences, check the User Profile / Signature section to see what you've got it set to. -- [[User:WOSlinker|WOSlinker]] ([[User talk:WOSlinker|talk]]) 13:20, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

::Indeed. It's not really correct to say that your accounts were merged though, as that is impossible on Wikipedia. One of them was just [//en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=User%3AFortmac moved out of the way]. '''[[User:Graham87|Graham]]'''[[User talk:Graham87|<span style="color:green;">87</span>]] 06:46, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

::: Fantastic, thanks for the help. [[User:Fortmac|Fortmac]] ([[User talk:Fortmac|talk]]) 16:37, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

== Tool to calculate total number of articles user has edited ==

Is there any tool on Labs or Toolserver where an editor can find out how many articles they're contributed to?  Not the total edit count per editor, but the article count per editor and/or project article count by editor. I've seen on some user pages where there are claims such as, "I've contributed to over 30,000 articles"  or  "I've contributed to 7,000 articles on this project" and wonder if that's a personal calculation, or there is some tool that calculates that for them?  If there is no tool available to verify such a claim, it seems to me one could claim anything they want about their editing history.[[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 12:53, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
:http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/pcount/ might be what you're looking for. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#000099;">equazcion</span>]] <small style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</small> 12:56, 12 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
::Thanks. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 13:06, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
:::That tool gives you total edits in article space as well as all the other namespaces.  He wants an article count.  Betacommand has informed me that a tool to serve this purpose will be up shortly.—[[User:C678|<span style="color:green;font-family:Neuropol">cyberpower</span>]] [[User talk:C678|<sup style="color:red;font-family:arnprior">Chat</sup>]]<sub style="margin-left:-4.4ex;color:red;font-family:arnprior">Offline</sub> 13:44, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::When this tool debuts, can someone please post here at the Pump so users will know it's available.  Thanks. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 14:32, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
::::Well, it does give you a "unique pages edited" count, but true it does currently include all namespaces and not just article space. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#000099;">equazcion</span>]] <small style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</small> 14:04, 12 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
:::::The temporary link to this tool is http://tools.wmflabs.org/betacommand-dev/refs/article_count.py?user=Maile66 . This function will be integrated into the edit counter in the near future.—[[User:C678|<span style="color:green;font-family:Neuropol">cyberpower</span>]] [[User talk:C678|<sup style="color:olive;font-family:arnprior">Chat</sup>]]<sub style="margin-left:-4.4ex;color:olive;font-family:arnprior">Online</sub> 15:18, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::Got it.  Thanks.  That certainly is a different figure than the Edit Counter's "unique pages edited" (whatever that terms means?). [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 15:25, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Here's what I have been using: [http://toolserver.org/~tparis/pcount/index.php?name=Anne+Delong&lang=en&wiki=wikipedia X's Edit Counter - old server] &mdash;[[User:Anne Delong|Anne Delong]] ([[User talk:Anne Delong|talk]]) 16:14, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Unique pages edited is the number of different pages in all namespaces where you have made at least one edit. It's probably easier to verify if you reduce the sample size - for example, at French Wikipedia, I have made [[:fr:Spécial:Contributions/Redrose64|13 edits]] in all namespaces, and of those 13, three (two to [[:fr:Utilisateur:Redrose64]] and one to [[:fr:K8]]) were not my first edit to that page. That leaves ten; and [//toolserver.org/~tparis/pcount/index.php?name=Redrose64&lang=fr&wiki=wikipedia X!'s Edit Counter] states "Nombre d'articles différents édités: 10". Taking article space alone, I have [//fr.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Sp%C3%A9cial%3AContributions&target=Redrose64&namespace=0 9 edits in total], of which one was a second edit, so I've edited 8 different ''articles''. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 17:04, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

== Question re. embedding third-party fonts on wp pages ==

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:Multilingual_support#Mongolian here]. [[User:Yaan|Yaan]] ([[User talk:Yaan|talk]]) 17:04, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
== Watchlist "since last visit" ==

On my watchlist, new edits since I last looked in on a page are showing with a count followed by "since last visit". I've found this to be very helpful and it has made my editing more efficient. Thanks to whoever or whatever made that change. <span style="background-color:#B7D9F9;border:solid 0px #0E5CA4;padding:0px 3px;border-radius:3px">[[User:SchreiberBike|SchreiberBike]]&nbsp;<span style="border-left:1px solid #0E5CA4;padding-left:3px">[[User talk:SchreiberBike|talk]]</span></span> 03:37, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
: That would be me. I'm glad that there's at least one more person that uses this! :D [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 10:24, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
::Make that two more....  I noticed this yesterday (i think), and spent an hour or more puzzling over whether it really was new or just a result of my poor observation skills.  Thank you, Matma Rex. Cheers, '''[[User:LindsayH|Lindsay]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LindsayH|Hello]]</sup> 14:27, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
* Can one make it go away? its rather annoying and breaks reading the page due to some pages having it and others not. [[User:Werieth|Werieth]] ([[User talk:Werieth|talk]]) 18:30, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
{{od}} Add the following to [[Special:MyPage/common.css|your common.css page]]:

<syntaxhighlight lang="css">.updatedmarker {
    display: none;
}
</syntaxhighlight>

PS. See [[Wikipedia:Customizing watchlists]] for info on letting your watchlist mark updated pages for you. The "updated since" tags are part of that watchlist feature, but most of them were disabled by community consensus. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#000099;">equazcion</span>]] <small style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</small> 18:36, 9 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
:[[User:Werieth/monobook.css|My CSS page already had something similar]] I added what you suggested and its still appearing. [[User:Werieth|Werieth]] ([[User talk:Werieth|talk]]) 18:42, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
::Are you sure you're using the Monobook skin? Try adding the code to [[Special:MyPage/common.css|your common.css page]] instead and see if that does it. Also remember to [[Wikipedia:Bypass your cache|bypass your cache]]. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#000099;">equazcion</span>]] <small style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</small> 18:49, 9 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
:::I am 100% sure that I am using monobook, I have bypasses my cache several times with no luck. I am still seeing ''(2 changes | 1 since last visit | history)'' on some items on my watchlist. [[User:Werieth|Werieth]] ([[User talk:Werieth|talk]]) 12:49, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't see this feature instead. What should I look for? --[[User:Cyclopia|<span style="font-size:small; color:seagreen;">cyclopia</span>]][[User talk:Cyclopia|<sup style="color:red;">speak!</sup>]] 12:55, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
: Enable "Group changes by page in recent changes and watchlist (requires JavaScript)" [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rc|here]] and "Expand watchlist to show all changes, not just the most recent" [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-watchlist|here]]. [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 13:34, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
:: Many thanks! --[[User:Cyclopia|<span style="font-size:small; color:seagreen;">cyclopia</span>]][[User talk:Cyclopia|<sup style="color:red;">speak!</sup>]] 09:36, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

* Any updates on how to hide this annoyance? [[User:Werieth|Werieth]] ([[User talk:Werieth|talk]]) 12:32, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
**Okay I think I see what you mean. You can add <code>$('a:contains("since last visit")').remove();</code> to [[Special:MyPage/common.js|your common.js page]]. This will remove the "since last visit" links. Only thing is, it will leave an empty "|  |" where the link was supposed to be. Shortly after these "since" features were introduced, the developers were beckoned to add code that would make customization easy, and they did -- but you're using a non-default option to "expand" watchlist changes via your watchlist preferences; something that was neglected during these fixes. As a result there's no easy way (that I can see) to cleanly do what you want, but maybe someone else will come along and say there, since I'm so often wrong. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 14:17, 13 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
***Can we get a buzilla ticket filed for this? [[User:Werieth|Werieth]] ([[User talk:Werieth|talk]]) 14:39, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
*** I have an appointment... Give me a couple hours and I'll post your fix to get rid of it.  I can do it the same way I got rid of the "block" links for admins. [[User:Technical 13|Technical 13]] ([[User talk:Technical 13|talk]]) 15:15, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
****Just a note, the way this was handled in the default display was to simply wrap all the new features in span tags with new classes for easy hiding/formatting. Might want to suggest that, as in the "expanded" watchlist there are no classes for this stuff, and there's also some free-floating display text (parenthesis and pipes) outside elements. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 15:22, 13 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
* Okay, so I finally dug out the code for hiding block links for admins on [[bugzilla:46412]].
<syntaxhighlight lang="javascript">
$('.mw-title').parent('td').find(':contains(" since last visit")').replaceWith("");
</syntaxhighlight>
: Above is a starting point that will get rid of the link but leaves a "| |" for now... I'll work on removing that later, but I'm getting too tired and am going to bed. Happy editing! [[User:Technical 13|Technical 13]] ([[User talk:Technical 13|talk]]) 01:20, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
::The code I posted above is a little simpler for that. The problem is still getting rid of the extra pipe and spaces. I looked for a while into snippets that would allow jQuery selection of text nodes outside an element but none seemed to do that trick. There's some DOM stuff that can apparently do it but I'm spoiled by jQuery. Ideally these things should be better organized into classed elements on the developer side. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 01:26, 14 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
::: I'm not sure why, but when I tried your code above, I couldn't get back into edit my common.js and special:watchlist were blank.  I had to disable JavaScript on my browser to get back in to revert the edit.  I added the <code>('.mw-title').parent('td').find</code> part back and it was all hunky dory again.  I'm still working on the | |.  I'm hoping to have it in a few more tries. [[User:Technical 13|Technical 13]] ([[User talk:Technical 13|talk]]) 02:47, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
:::* Okay...
<syntaxhighlight lang="JavaScript">
$('span.mw-title').parent('td').find('a:contains(" since last visit")').replaceWith('∞'); $('td').each(function(){ $(this).html($(this).html().replace('| ∞&nbsp;|','|')); });
</syntaxhighlight>
::::gets rid of it all and
<syntaxhighlight lang="JavaScript">
$('td').each(function(){ $(this).html($(this).html().replace('since last visit','new')); });
</syntaxhighlight>
:::: will just shorten it so it isn't so gaudy and long. [[User:Technical 13|Technical 13]] ([[User talk:Technical 13|talk]]) 04:38, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

== A bit concerned about revert notifications. ==

{{tracked|54007}}
I recently edited the page for [[Crossfire (TV series)|Crossfire]], soon I recieved a rather alarming notification that my edit had been reverted, which was shcoking because it was generally good information (I thought), anyway upon going to the page it seems that someone had deleted only a single line of what I wrote but left the rest. In actuality this wasn't a revert, although the notification system seemed to think it was. While I'm thick skinned enough to deal with the changing nature of Wikipedia, I often hear that newcomers are often intimidate about pages constantly being reverted, I think that will only hamper participation especially if there's a difference between actual revertion and what the system thinks is revertion.

[[User:Deathawk|Deathawk]] ([[User talk:Deathawk|talk]]) 23:51, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

:The person who reverted your edit may have clicked the undo button but only removed one line. As long as they click undo and submit, the system thinks its a revert. -- <span class="nowrap">[[User talk:Numbermaniac|<sup style="font-weight:normal">t</sup>]] [[User:Numbermaniac|<span style="color:#07E">numbermaniac</span>]]<sup> [[User:Numbermaniac/edit count|c]]</sup></span> 03:06, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

::{{reply to|Deathawk}} To expand a bit: an editor can click "Undo" and then do further editing to the article. In this case, the editor apparently deleted the standard text that "undo" will put into the Edit summary field, on the basis that he/she wasn't simply reverting you. But, as Numbermaniac pointed out, the MediaWiki software doesn't know that, so it assumed that this was just a full revert, and notified you accordingly. [Notifications are new at Wikipedia, so the proper etiquette for reverts probably needs some publicizing.]  -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 15:45, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

:::This sounds like a bug/flawed design to me. Can we disable it? [[User:Biosthmors|Biosthmors]] ([[User talk:Biosthmors|talk]]) 15:48, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

::::I had filed [[bugzilla:54007]] without even reading this thread. --<span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:Ricordisamoa|<span style="color:#004B70">Ricordi</span>]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|<span style="color:#00703E">samoa</span>]]</span> 23:48, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

== HTTPS Automatic When Logged Out ==

This happens even when I'M NOT LOGGED IN. This began happening two days ago and happens with EVERY article page I visit. Is there any way to prevent this from happening? Please help, thanks [[User:Ponorinc|Ponorinc]] ([[User talk:Ponorinc|talk]]) 03:50, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

:Are you saying that you're logged in on https when you're logged out on http? -- <span class="nowrap">[[User talk:Numbermaniac|<sup style="font-weight:normal">t</sup>]] [[User:Numbermaniac|<span style="color:#07E">numbermaniac</span>]]<sup> [[User:Numbermaniac/edit count|c]]</sup></span> 05:26, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm confused by your question. What I'm saying is that when I'm logged out (and logged in as well) all Wikipedia pages I visit are Https automatically. [[User:Ponorinc|Ponorinc]] ([[User talk:Ponorinc|talk]]) 05:52, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
:There are some browsers that remember (based on browser history) if you visited a domain using https, and will automatically direct you to https on subsequent visits. The way around that is to go to the url bar and explicitly edit the url to use http. You can also disable this in the preferences of said browsers, requires a bit of googling to figure out where exactly. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 08:44, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
::{{replyto|Ponorinc}}, which browser are you using? --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 12:11, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Redrose64 I use SRWare Iron which is basically a version of Google Chrome from what I know. 
:::So here's what is happening now. I cleared all my cookies and cache and Wikipedia is no longer automatically using HTTPS when I'm not logged in. However when I'm logged in HTTPS is still automatic (is that normal by the way for every Wikipedia member)? The weird thing that is happening now is google.com (main search engine I use) is automatically HTTPS even when I am not logged in to Gmail or a Google account. This never happened before, '''Google was only HTTPS when I was logged in.''' Anyone have an idea why this might be happening? As you can probably tell I am not very knowledgeable about this stuff and want to ask anyone who knows what are the benefits of HTTPS vs HTTP (especially since every google page is now using HTTPS)? Also is there any way I can stop HTTPS from automatically being used on google? I appreciate any advice or answers. [[User:Ponorinc|Ponorinc]] ([[User talk:Ponorinc|talk]]) 15:55, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
::::[[HTTPS]] is used by default when you are logged in to Wikipedia; this is normal. If this causes you a problem, you can turn it off in {{myprefs|User profile|{{int:prefs-info}}&#160;→ {{int:tog-prefershttps}}}}. You will need to log out and log in again (and possibly clear your cookies) for the change to take effect.
::::I noticed Google.com are also HTTPS-by-default a little while back (I don't have a Google account). I don't know how to disable this (it doesn't bother me), though someone else might know. This is unrelated to Wikipedia using HTTPS. Google are probably doing it for similar reasons, and might have been inspired by our own switch to HTTPS-by-default.
::::As for the benefits of HTTPS... Your connection to Wikipedia passes over lots of other computers before it reaches Wikipedia, including your [[Internet service provider|ISP]]'s systems and the Internet [[core router]]s. These systems are controlled by many different organisations, any of which can easily capture the data you exchange with Wikipedia (possibly at the behest of the [[National Security Agency|NSA]] or other government organisation). Furthermore, if you are using [[open wifi]], anyone in range can capture the data you exchange with Wikipedia. There are also various attacks (e.g. [[DNS spoofing]]) that can divert your connection via some other computer.
::::HTTPS provides two main benefits: firstly, it authenticates that the website you are connecting to is who it claims to be. If someone tries to divert you to a fake Wikipedia site and you are using HTTPS, your browser will warn you. Secondly, HTTPS [[encryption|encrypts]] your communications so none of the computers between you and Wikipedia can understand them.
::::Why should you care who can see the data you are exchanging with Wikipedia? There are two very sensitive pieces of information you send to Wikipedia. The most obvious is the password you use to log in. Anyone who knows this can impersonate you, and can also see your e-mail address if you have set one. Less obvious is your login token. This is a very long number that Wikipedia sends to your browser when you log in. Your browser sends this to Wikipedia with every page you request, to confirm that you are logged in. Anyone who discovers this token can use it to impersonate you on Wikipedia until you log out. (For regular editors like yourself, someone else using your account would be an annoyance. In the case of [[Wikipedia:administrators|administrators]], someone else using the account could cause serious harm.) Less obviously, you might not want others to be able to track the pages you view; one can discover a scary amount about a person from their viewing habits.
::::Of course, there are also benefits to using plain HTTP. It's faster for a start, though depending on your computer and network connection you might not notice this. Some browsers handle HTTPS in ways that can be annoying; using HTTP can avoid these annoyances. E.g. there have been reports here that Internet Explorer doesn't include HTTPS pages in its browser history, nor does auto-completion of form fields work in that browser.
::::If HTTPS does not inconvenience you any way, keep it turned on. If it causes you problems, you need to weigh the inconvenience against the risks I outlined above and come to your own decision.
::::Sorry for the long reply, but I hope I have answered most of your questions. –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 20:41, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

::::: Thank you so much PartTimeGnome for the response. I have just two more questions and I'm done:  I already use an antivirus and firewall for security (AVG), do I really need the "extra" protection of HTTPS if I already use an antivirus program? When you say HTTPS can run websites slower does that affect only websites using HTTPS (i.e. Google, Wikipedia, Facebook - these are the only 3 sites that are using HTTPS-by-default for me) or will it slow down EVERY website I'm accessing on my browser? Again, thanks for the information on this issue!! [[User:Ponorinc|Ponorinc]] ([[User talk:Ponorinc|talk]]) 03:56, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::I would think an antivirus/firewall protects info entering and leaving the computer; if someone intercepts your password on the way from your computer to the server, the virus/firewall program wouldn't really do anything. Just for the record, HTTP sends plain passwords, HTTPS encrypts them first. -- <span class="nowrap">[[User talk:Numbermaniac|<sup style="font-weight:normal">t</sup>]] [[User:Numbermaniac|<span style="color:#07E">numbermaniac</span>]]<sup> [[User:Numbermaniac/edit count|c]]</sup></span> 05:33, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::HTTPS isn't virus protection... it's to hinder [[The Man]]. Of course, any attempt to tighten personal security is going to look suspicious, so the Feds will open a file on you the instant they detect https - "what are they hiding?" --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 12:45, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
:{{od|::::::}}[[User:Numbermaniac|Numbermaniac]] and [[User:Redrose64|Redrose64]] are quite right: anti-virus/firewall software and HTTPS protect against different things. Anti-virus and firewall software protect your computer. HTTPS protects your information after it has left your computer.
:To your other question, only websites using HTTPS are slower. Plain HTTP websites are unaffected.
:RedRose64, using HTTPS by default means there are too many people using it for the Feds to pay close attention to all of them. To my mind, HTTPS is more useful for protecting your data from criminals than from the government. There are ways a government can work around HTTPS if they really want to see your data. For example, the US government could pressure Wikimedia or their [[Certificate authority|CA]] to release the private key (enabling [[perfect forward secrecy]] would make that useless, though). They could get a CA to issue a fake certificate and use it for a [[man-in-the-middle attack]]. There are suspicions the [[National Security Agency|NSA]] has cracked the cipher algorithm used on Wikipedia [http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/06/nsa_cryptobreaking_bullrun_analysis/]. Your government could require you to [[Key disclosure law|give up your passwords or face jail]] (the UK has such a law), or use [[rubber-hose cryptanalysis]] (torture). All that takes effort of course, so HTTPS at least discourages ''casual'' government snooping. –&#160;'''[[User:PartTimeGnome|PartTimeGnome]]''' <span style="font-size:79%">([[User talk:PartTimeGnome|talk]]&#160;&#124; [[Special:Contributions/PartTimeGnome|contribs]])</span> 20:53, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
::I'm pretty sure Redrose was being somewhat facetious. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 23:49, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
::It is possible that a site gets faster instead of slower with HTTPS if the server uses the [[SPDY]] protocol (which is negotiated in the HTTPS handshake). --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] ([[User talk:CesarB|talk]]) 11:38, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

== Accidental double moves by pressing Back button ==

This seems like something that should be reported on Bugzilla, but the instructions say to report the matter here first when in doubt. So, that's what I'm doing.

In any event, I've noticed a problem when moving pages that I don't believe I've noticed before, or at least believe should be fixed. If I navigate away from the ''Move succeeded'' page that is displayed after performing a move and then press the back button, the move is attempted again. If the original move didn't require deleting the target page, there's no problem, as you get a screen notifying you that the target article has a history, which requires a confirmation of deletion. However, if the original move did require deleting the target page (so this only comes up if you're an admin), the confirmation to delete the target page is carried over even after you press the back button. The end result is that the article you just moved is now deleted and replaced by a self-referencing redirect.

If that was confusing, let me try to explain that this way:

Say you're trying to move an article from [[Location A]] to [[Location B]], which has a history. You might do the following:

#Attempt to move article to [[Location B]].
#*Receive a warning (as an admin) notifying you that [[Location B]] has a history and asking you to confirm that you want to delete that to make way for the move.
#Confirm deletion, and attempt move again.
#*Receive notice saying "Move succeeded".
#*History of unwanted page at [[Location B]] deleted. Article originally at [[Location A]] is now at [[Location B]]. [[Location A]] is now just a redirect to [[Location B]].
#Navigate away from the page.
#Press the back button.
#*Receive notice saying "Move succeeded".
#*History of desired article at [[Location B]] deleted. Redirect originally at [[Location A]] is now at [[Location B]] (producing a self-referencing redirect). [[Location A]] is also just a redirect to [[Location B]].

Unfortunately, fixing the mistake caused here can be a nightmare. You now have the history of two pages merged in the deleted history. You have to pick out the diffs corresponding to the article you want and restore those. God forbid if both of the articles involved have extensive histories or were of similar sizes (making it hard to pick out which diffs belong with each article). An example of where I made this mistake is at the [[Lui Chong]] article (see the [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Liu+Chong deletion log]; note two consecutive deletions marked as "Deleted to make way for move").

What should happen is, after you press the back button, you should get some sort of warning that your action will cause the deletion of the article that you just moved to [[Location B]]. That could come in the form of the standard red-box warning indicating that the target location [now occupied by the article you just moved] has a history or it could come with a browser-level "Please confirm that you want to resubmit this form" dialog box. However, the way this is handled now doesn't work.

Feedback on this issue, and whether I've posted it in the correct venue, would be greatly appreciated. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<span style="color:black;">tariq</span><span style="color:gray;">abjotu</span>]]''' 05:17, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, I've experienced this a few times over the years under Internet Explorer, but I can't remember which pages it occurred on ... I do remember that it was indeed very annoying. '''[[User:Graham87|Graham]]'''[[User talk:Graham87|<span style="color:green;">87</span>]] 06:39, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

:Yeah and I have had it doing a requested move after someone else already did it.  But all you have to do is move the recently moved page back and then restore the blatted one. So it's annoying but not as messy as you suggest.  Usually the last mistakenly moved page is a redirect, so you lose nothing by scrapping that. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 08:48, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

::{{ping|Graeme Bartlett}} I don't believe we're talking about the same thing. It sounds like you're referring to situations where [[Location B]], before any moves were performed, didn't exist, and where you have willfully requested the deletion of the target page when performing your move. In this case here, [[Location B]], prior to all moves, already exists, with a history that needs to be deleted. So, at the end of the error, there is only one undeleted version at [[Location B]] (the redirect that was just at [[Location A]]). The histories of both the original page at [[Location B]] and the recently moved article from [[Location A]] have, by that point, already been merged through the pair of deletions. As far as I know, the only way to fix that is to select the diffs of the article you actually want (or the inverse of that) and restore accordingly. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<span style="color:black;">tariq</span><span style="color:gray;">abjotu</span>]]''' 13:35, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

== Pop-up box when hovering over article title ==

When hovering over an article title, a pop-up box appears giving options (edit, history etc.) and the beginning of the lede.  If there is an image, the options are moved down the page, the image inserted in the top LH corner and the options then move back up to the underside of the image.  This makes selecting an option difficult, as the options are jumping about.  When trying to click edit, I frequently hit, and open the image, or the article, as the options are moved down, or "what links here" as they move back up.

About 10 days ago the pop up box changed, moving the image to the right and stabilizing the options, albeit that they were moved to drop down menus requiring a second hover and a click.<br/> About 2 days ago it reverted to the original jumping option. Why was this changed back? Is the stable version going to return? Can it be selected via some code?<br/>
Finally why do the options still include "Editors" which leads to a page stating "This tool no longer exists."<br/>[[User:Arjayay|Arjayay]] ([[User talk:Arjayay|talk]]) 09:15, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
:It sounds like you have installed [[WP:POPUPS]] and are using IE where you have used some pages with [[Compatibility_mode#Internet_Explorer|Compatibility mode]], which would affect the capabilities that popups would have. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 11:06, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
::The answer in one - I had accidentally clicked compatibility view (which is far too close to the refresh button), but oddly, it wasn't showing up as selected. Thanks [[User:Arjayay|Arjayay]] ([[User talk:Arjayay|talk]]) 12:26, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

== Last change ==

Dear editors:  When I first joined Wikipedia, when I received a message on my talk page a large orange notification banner would appear.  This has more recently been replaced by a smaller notification (an improvement, since it takes less screen real estate).  The old one, however, had a "last change" link.  I find with this new notification I often have to search the page history looking for the new message, since the notification doesn't include a last change link and clicking on it doesn't lead to the section of my talk page which holds the new message.  Is there a setting that can fix this?  If not, is something planned for the future to replace this useful feature?  &mdash;[[User:Anne Delong|Anne Delong]] ([[User talk:Anne Delong|talk]]) 12:19, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
:My notifications have a "view changes" link for each, which does the same thing. It's a small link in the lower-right. Is that not showing up for you? <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 12:22, 13 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>

:: Thank you.  Even though I have a 16:9 screen, in order to keep the page header tabs from messing up ([[#Misplaced tabs when zoomed in| see above]]), I have been leaving my browser zoomed out when navigating between pages so that I can see the page titles.   At that zoom level the little words under the notification are unreadable to me.  However, by zooming in I see that my solution has been there all along.  I kind of thought that it was too useful a feature to have been omitted. Thanks again.  &mdash;[[User:Anne Delong|Anne Delong]] ([[User talk:Anne Delong|talk]]) 13:47, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
:::The "little words" (typically {{xt|1 hour ago {{!}} View changes}}) may be made the same size as the main part of the entry with one line of CSS: <syntaxhighlight lang=css>div.mw-echo-notification-footer { font-size: inherit; }</syntaxhighlight> This should be added to either [[Special:MyPage/common.css]] or [[Special:MyPage/skin.css]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 20:09, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
::::Thanks for the tip.  &mdash;[[User:Anne Delong|Anne Delong]] ([[User talk:Anne Delong|talk]]) 20:19, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

== [[Template:Infobox person]] ==

Something interesting has happened to this template page.  &mdash;[[User:Anne Delong|Anne Delong]] ([[User talk:Anne Delong|talk]]) 14:07, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
:Can you be... significantly more specific? [[User:Vanisaac|Van]][[User talk:Vanisaac|Isaac]]<sub><small>[[WP:WikiProject Writing systems|WS]] [[WP:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology|Vex]]</small></sub><sup style="margin-left:-7.0ex">[[Special:Contributions/Vanisaac|contribs]]</sup> 14:22, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

:The template documentation is transcluded from [[Template:Infobox person/doc]]. The template itself is protected, but the documentation isn't. A new user is trying to write their draft article on the documentation page. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 14:25, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

::Oh, thanks; when I went to look again and the problem was gone I thought maybe I was imagining that fellow.... &mdash;[[User:Anne Delong|Anne Delong]] ([[User talk:Anne Delong|talk]]) 14:43, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

== Banner ==

I hope readers aren't being pounded with the "wiki loves monuments" banner as much as I am... It's quite annoying. If I click X on it once, it shouldn't ever come back. Should it WMF? {{ping|Mdennis (WMF)}} Greetings Maggie! [[User:Biosthmors|Biosthmors]] ([[User talk:Biosthmors|talk]]) 20:41, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
:You should need to dismiss it only once per project (once at Meta, once at Commons, once here) per computer/per browser (because dismissing it is partly cookie-based).  If that doesn't work for you, then please tell me what your browser is. [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 20:58, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
:You can fix that by just going to other websites instead. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 21:02, 13 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
::In Firefox 23.0.1, I needed to dismiss the banner more than once on [[commons:|Commons]]; on [[m:|Meta]]; and [[:fr:|French Wikipedia]]. In each case, I had gone to my watchlist; dismissed the banner; clicked a "diff" link and the banner was back. However, at [[:cy:|Welsh]] and [[:simple:|Simple English]] it only needed to be dismissed once. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 21:57, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
== Citation expander for ISBN/URL ==

There was a bit of talk here about Citation expander not working properly--from what I understand (see [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 116]]) this is the thingy that fills in the blanks in the cite book template on the basis of GBooks URL or ISBN. A comment was made there, "The bot's maintainer has set the bot's account to not use SSL for now, as a workaround", but I have no idea what that is supposed to mean--whether a workaround means it's supposed to be working or not. Whatever it is, something's not working, and it's a drag: when that thingy was working it saved me eons of time and RSI. Can someone PLEASE fix this? Thank you. Oh, and while you're at it, can some smart person make something that allows the blanks to be filled in for the cite journal template based on a JSTOR stable URL? It would make my life almost complete. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 17:47, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
:Please fill out two bug reports / feature requests at [[User_talk:Citation_bot]]. The bot's developer is working on a revamped version of the bot, and he has been responsive to my bug reports in the last month or so. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 18:38, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks--but the page says new feature requests are no longer accepted... [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 19:05, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Actually, {{para|jstor}} support is supposed to be an existing feature. Do you have an example of it not working? [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<span style="color:red; font-family:Papyrus;">come howl!</span>]]</small> 19:58, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
::::I don't understand the question, sorry. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 23:25, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

:See [[Wikipedia_talk:RefToolbar#Autofill]]. Are you using Google Chrome? It's possible that the problem is related to [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:RefToolbar.js&diff=571013758&oldid=555167946 this edit]. I don't know why though. [[User:Jason Quinn|Jason Quinn]] ([[User talk:Jason Quinn|talk]]) 18:30, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
::I'm using Firefox 23.0.1. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 03:36, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

== Global contributions ==

On the user contributions page there is a link to global contributions on the tool server.  However that rarely works now.  Is the a substitute on the WMFlabs?  How do we find the new tools? [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 08:42, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
:The list of projects hosted on Tool Labs (part of WMFLabs) can be found on [[toollabs:]]. It seems that [[User:Luxo|Luxo]] has started [[toollabs:guc]], but it just shows a [[hello world]] message (in German!). There may be other tools you can use to get global contribs. [[User:PiRSquared17|<b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr<sup>2</sup></b>]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">'''t'''</i>]] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">'''c'''</i>]]) 03:35, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
:The porting of various "global" tools like Luxo's tool, sulinfo, or stalktoy are all blocked by [[bugzilla:53987]]. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 18:32, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

== Searching in version diffs, Version FAQ, Differences FAQ ==

Hello all, 

I seem unable to find a place where this has been answered (if any) and I've been getting an unmanageable number of hits (all way off answering my question) for all keyword combinations I could think of. So in case this had been ansered elsewhere, sorry and could somebody kindly point me to that place.

I am looking for a way to search an article's version log for where a given portion of text was introduced. Example: Who added 
<code><nowiki>
<ref>[http://www.br-online.de/bayern2/radiowissen/australien-aborigines-ayers-rock-ID1265712254426.xml Ayers Rock – Der Computer rettet Felsmalereien]</ref>
</nowiki></code> 
to 
<code><nowiki>de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uluṟu</nowiki></code> ? (or, for simplicity, when was 
<code><nowiki>
Leung, Chee Chee (23 September 2003). "Lulu the kangaroo hops to the rescue". The Age (Australia). Retrieved 10 January 2010.
</nowiki></code> 
added to [[Kangaroo]] ?, '''purpose being''' in a range of useful advanced actions such as quickly finding the contributor to discuss a detail or ask a question, determining the time a now broken link was added (such as in the de: example) in order to narrow the search for the original source, etc.

I'd like to suggest the answer to my question be entered on the WP search FAQ and/or WP versions FAQ (with creation of said FAQs if they don't exist), and adapting the current [[Wikipedia:FAQ index|FAQ index]]. As it is, it is hard to tell from the FAQ index which FAQ to look in for the answer in the first place.

Any help appreciated, TIA --[[Special:Contributions/217.81.188.73|217.81.188.73]] ([[User talk:217.81.188.73|talk]]) 13:32, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

: Shortly after posting, I found that [[Help:Diff#Searching_diffs_to_spot_a_particular_change]] provides some kind of initial answer but makes it inconvenient, except for the hint to WikiBlame that makes it semi-convenient. I also found that finding this information took a fair amount of both creativity and luck (it was a fine-print link on [[Help:Searching]] that finally led me there). I wonder whether there's a realistic chance for further improvement. --[[Special:Contributions/217.81.188.73|217.81.188.73]] ([[User talk:217.81.188.73|talk]]) 13:37, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
::Does [[WP:WIKIBLAME]] not do what you require then? --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 15:41, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

::Wikiblame is actually linked as "Revision history search" from all revision history pages on the English Wikipedia ([https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Kangaroo&action=history] in your example). No opinion on whether and how it could be included more prominently in FAQ pages, but I agree that such tools can be really useful for editors. There is also [https://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/11/21/do-it-yourself-analytics-with-wikipedia/ DiffDB] by [[User:Whym|Whym]] and [[User:Drdee|Drdee]] which is presumably much faster and more powerful, but doesn't seem to have a public search interface yet. Regards, [[User:HaeB|HaeB]] ([[User talk:HaeB|talk]]) 23:57, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

== Modules and cache ==

I was trying to figure out why [[Joseph-François Malgaigne]] has script errors, its because of the template <nowiki>{{Authority control|VIAF=64103543}}</nowiki>. But the template (with the parameters) works on other articles (preview), and in my sandbox. I tried to remove the script error with a null edit, and a normal edit - didn't help.... Some other weird stuff. Go to an article which use the template Authority control, remove all parameters but one from the Authority control, and preview the page, the other parameters still appear on the preview. [[User:Christian75|Christian75]] ([[User talk:Christian75|talk]]) 11:33, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

:An interesting bug - I think this is due to the recently implemented occupation code, which checks to see the subject's occupations on Wikidata before displaying certain specialised AC data (to ensure it's relevant). In this case, he has an [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q867071 "unknown value" occupation entry], and I ''suspect'' this is causing problems. {{ping|Legoktm}} - I think this is one for you. Perhaps the check could be done only if a MB id is present? That would reduce the chance of this sort of error on unrelated pages... [[User:Andrew Gray|Andrew Gray]] ([[User talk:Andrew Gray|talk]]) 17:34, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
::[//en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Module%3AAuthority_control&diff=572914016&oldid=572552670 Fixed], thanks for the ping. I've fixed the root cause, which was that it would throw an error if any of the properties we were checking used 'somevalue' or 'novalue'. I'm not sure if checking if a MB id is present would be useful, since the error would show up on less pages and be harder to track down then :P [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 18:01, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

== Is RFC bot working? ==

{{resolved|1=RFC is working again, thanks to {{U|Legoktm}}. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 03:08, 15 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>}}

[[User:RFC bot]] hasn't made any edits in about 2 weeks. Is there something going on with it? <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 12:23, 14 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
:Nevermind, I see it's been replaced. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 12:27, 14 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
::FYI The replacement, [[User:Legobot]], appears to not have listed new RFCs since 9 September. I left a note at the bot's talk page. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 14:34, 14 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>

== Article that has passed its 7 day notice period for unopposed deletion ==

I attached a proposed deletion template to a blp, [[Charlie Jacks]], as self-promotion. The seven days notice period is now up, and the deletion has not been opposed. Could an administrator please delete this? --[[User:The Vintage Feminist|The Vintage Feminist]] ([[User talk:The Vintage Feminist|talk]]) 16:06, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

:I've contested the prod - take it to AFD if you want, but I can't imagine it going any way other than "keep", if she's genuinely had a #1 record in Japan. Judging by your post on the talkpage, your beef seems to be more that her parents used to work for ''The Sun'' than any policy-based argument. Why is this at [[WP:VPT]], anyway?&nbsp;[[User:Mogism|Mogism]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Mogism#top|talk]]) 16:16, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

::There are only two sources for Charlie Jacks being #1 in Japan - one is the [http://charliejacks.com/home/biography/ biography on her own website] (word for word) and the [http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4493033/.html#ixzz2EOA1z5PT other is ''The Sun'' newspaper], while her step-father was its Deputy Editor. I do not have a 'beef' with him being its Deputy Editor but it hardly makes for a neutral source.

::As the seven days were up, and I'm not an administrator, I didn't know (technically) whether it was an automatic bot-type process that kicks-in to delete the article, or whether you have to specifically ask for an administrator to do it. The technical bit of the Village Pump seem the logical place to go. --[[User:The Vintage Feminist|The Vintage Feminist]] ([[User talk:The Vintage Feminist|talk]]) 18:02, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

:::In general, it's "after X period it's able to be deleted and someone will get around to it" - there's a [[User:DumbBOT/ProdSummary|list here which lists them all]] ordered by date so as to allow someone to skim through them up to the cut-off. It's left to a human, rather than being done automatically, in part so that there's always a second pair of eyes looking at the article and agreeing it should be deleted. [[User:Andrew Gray|Andrew Gray]] ([[User talk:Andrew Gray|talk]]) 18:13, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
::::As I pointed out on [[WT:PROD#Expired prod problems|threads linked from here]], it is not essential to delete all PRODded articles the instant that the 7-day period has elapsed. As noted above, all deletion actions require an admin to actually press the button; but admins don't watch the various deletion categories 24/7. There are times when any delay is undesirable, such as [[WP:CSD#G10]]: but PROD does not fall into that group. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 18:31, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

:::::Okay. I have no problem with it not happening automatically the second that the 7 days are up. It was just that, in spite of looking it up, I couldn't find what was supposed to happen next or how it was meant to happen.

:::::Do I really have to start all over again through a different method of deletion? --[[User:The Vintage Feminist|The Vintage Feminist]] ([[User talk:The Vintage Feminist|talk]]) 20:31, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::The action to take after 7 days is shown at [[WP:PROD#Procedure for administrators]], and such pages are listed in {{cl|Expired proposed deletions}}. There are four ways that an article may be deleted, they are described at [[WP:DELETE]]. Of the four, three may not be used unless certain criteria (different for each of the three) are met; the only one which is always available is [[WP:AFD]]. In the specific case of [[Charlie Jacks]]:
::::::*it has been [[WP:DEPROD]]ded, so is no longer eligible for [[WP:PROD]]
::::::*it has at least one reference, so is not eligible for [[WP:BLPPROD]]
::::::*it is not apparent to me that any of the [[WP:CSD]] criteria apply
::::::which means that [[WP:AFD]] is your only possible route to deletion. I would urge you to read [[WP:BEFORE]]; it can help to save time at AFD if there is no possibility of an AFD leading to a deletion. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 21:25, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

== Random yet specific TeX errors ==

Many (but not all) times that I load [[Wikipedia:RD/C#random_looku|a Reference Desk section]] to which I added several &lt;math&gt; tags, I see several instances of the [[WP:texvc|texvc]] error "Failed to parse (unknown error): p=1\%", always for the same subset of my TeX snippets.  It seems to be all those that end in a command.  (This may of course be a known issue; sorry for the noise if so.  I didn't see anything recent about it.)  --[[User:Tardis|Tardis]] ([[User talk:Tardis|talk]]) 18:47, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

== Updating watchlist and user contributions: it's not happening ==

{{Tracked|54138}}

*I think the job queue is going wonky again - as my most recent edits are not showing up in User Contributions, for me or for an IP I checked. - [[User:The Bushranger|The Bushranger]] <sub>[[User talk:The Bushranger|<span style="color:maroon;">One ping only</span>]]</sub> 22:43, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
:Recent Changes is working, but nothing more recent than 22:19 UTC is showing either in my watchlist or my contributions. - [[User:The Bushranger|The Bushranger]] <sub>[[User talk:The Bushranger|<span style="color:maroon;">One ping only</span>]]</sub> 22:47, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
*My watchlist also seems to be having issues. I've looked at the diffs of every unchecked thing on my watchlist, but the green dot doesn't recognize it (even after clicking the "Mark all pages visited" button). [[User:Chris857|Chris857]] ([[User talk:Chris857|talk]]) 22:58, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
*Watchlist not updating for me as well. <s>PS. Merged this with previous section.</s> Now un-merged, as it appears these may be different issues. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 22:59, 14 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
*'''Ditto''' &mdash; 18:25 EDT is my last watchlist update. [[User:DKqwerty|DKqwerty]] ([[User talk:DKqwerty|talk]]) 23:01, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
:*<s>Now it's</s> <u>User contributions is</u> backed up even further to 18:05 EDT. [[User:DKqwerty|DKqwerty]] ([[User talk:DKqwerty|talk]]) 23:03, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
:Same problem as The Bushranger, my watchlist not showing recent updates and they are also not showing up in User Contributions.--[[User:Jockzain|Jockzain]] ([[User talk:Jockzain|talk]]) 23:04, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
*It's UTC 22:25 for me as well.--<span style="">[[User:Gilderien|Gilderien]] <span style="font-size:70%; vertical-align:sub;">[[User talk:Gilderien|Chat]]&#124;[[Special:Contributions/Gilderien|Contributions]]</span></span> 23:05, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
**(Britain) --<span style="">[[User:Gilderien|Gilderien]] <span style="font-size:70%; vertical-align:sub;">[[User talk:Gilderien|Chat]]&#124;[[Special:Contributions/Gilderien|List of good deeds]]</span></span> 23:16, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
***Now it's 22:38. Seems to be being fixed.--<span style="">[[User:Gilderien|Gilderien]] <span style="font-size:70%; vertical-align:sub;">[[User talk:Gilderien|Chat]]&#124;[[Special:Contributions/Gilderien|List of good deeds]]</span></span> 23:26, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
*For me it's UTC 22:19.--[[User:Jockzain|Jockzain]] ([[User talk:Jockzain|talk]]) 23:07, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
*Not working for me either. [[User:Headhitter|Headhitter]] ([[User talk:Headhitter|talk]]) 23:19, 14 September 2013 (UTC) 23:17, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
*Ditto since 22:21. [[User:Brycehughes|Brycehughes]] ([[User talk:Brycehughes|talk]]) 23:18, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
*My watchlist and contribs aren't updating. Changes can be seen only on RC or article history. [[User:Til Eulenspiegel|Til Eulenspiegel]] /[[User talk:Til Eulenspiegel|talk]]/ 23:20, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
*At least we have a database lag message now. 43 minutes. Shameless plug: [[User:Equazcion/LagToMinutes]] adds minute count to database lag banner. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 23:26, 14 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
:*I was just coming to comment on the same thing, plus suggest seconds >300 be converted to minutes. I fully support use of your banner and if there's anywhere I can comment to help to get it implemented, let me know on my talk page. [[User:DKqwerty|DKqwerty]] ([[User talk:DKqwerty|talk]]) 23:34, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
::*It's actually a [[WP:US|script]] I wrote, which people can implement for themselves now. See the linked page for instructions (it's pretty simple). Although I wouldn't mind getting the banner changed for everyone... seems to make sense. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 23:40, 14 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
* I've encountered this problem as well. WMF Operations is looking in to it. <span style="font-family:Georgia, serif;">[[User:Steven Walling|Steven Walling]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[User talk:Steven Walling|<span style="color: #8080b0">talk</span>]]</span>  23:30, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
{{Resolved|&mdash; Both watchlist and contributions seem to be up to date again. [[User:DKqwerty|DKqwerty]] ([[User talk:DKqwerty|talk]]) 23:44, 14 September 2013 (UTC)}}

== Edits appearing in history but not on page ==

[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=572973952&oldid=572973912 This edit] has not yet appeared on [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]]. (change is however rendered in preview mode). Anyone else having a similar issue? <span style="border:1px solid;border-radius:1.5em 0;"><span style="background-color:#F82;border-radius:1.5em 0 0;">   [[Special:Contributions/DKqwerty|<span style="color:#FFF;">DK</span>]]</span>[[User:DKqwerty/T|<span style="color:#D60;">qwerty</span>]]   </span> 04:32, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:You can use the "Click here to purge this page" link at the top of ANI to make sure you're looking at the very latest version of the page. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 04:35, 15 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
::Thanks for the info! <span style="border:1px solid;border-radius:1.5em 0;"><span style="background-color:#F82;border-radius:1.5em 0 0;">   [[Special:Contributions/DKqwerty|<span style="color:#FFF;">DK</span>]]</span>[[User:DKqwerty/T|<span style="color:#D60;">qwerty</span>]]   </span> 04:37, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:'''NOTE:''' Edit now appears on page, but with about five minutes of latency. Will use "purge this page" in the future. <span style="border:1px solid;border-radius:1.5em 0;"><span style="background-color:#F82;border-radius:1.5em 0 0;">   [[Special:Contributions/DKqwerty|<span style="color:#FFF;">DK</span>]]</span>[[User:DKqwerty/T|<span style="color:#D60;">qwerty</span>]]   </span> 04:37, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
== how to download all (but only) the articles that transclude a certain template ==

Hi, I need to download all the articles that transclude a template.

Is that possible? Or do I need to download the whole 9GB database dump?

The template I'm talking about is transcluded in approx 35K articles, so a lot less than 1% of the total.

So it feels like a huge waste of resources to download the whole database...

Does anybody know if this can be done and how?

Thanks a lot!

[[User:Azylber|Azylber]] ([[User talk:Azylber|talk]]) 04:43, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

:Well you can use the "what links here" on the template, change the number to as big as possible and the scroll through all the pages of transclusions.  You can do this with wget, but you have to ignore the robots policy to actually use it. And Wikipedia will not be very happy with you downloading 35000 pages in a few seconds, so do it slowly if you crawl the site. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 09:52, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
:A better option would be to get a list of pages and then feed that in chunks to [[Special:Export]]. [[User:Werieth|Werieth]] ([[User talk:Werieth|talk]]) 12:31, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
: You can use the API (help: [[mw:API]]) to download data about multiple pages at once. [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 12:52, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
::Hi guys, thank you very much for your answers. I combined Graeme's and Werieth's ideas, and it took less than 10 minutes (including the download) and I didn't break any policies. Brilliant :)  [[User:Azylber|Azylber]] ([[User talk:Azylber|talk]]) 04:37, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
{{Resolved|Thanks! [[User:Azylber|Azylber]] ([[User talk:Azylber|talk]]) 17:43, 15 September 2013 (UTC)}}

== Watchlist not showing page changes ==

My watchlist is not showing changes to a page I'm watching. The page is the article [[Nave]], which has had four edits today (two by me a few hours ago), none of which is showing on my watchlist. Neither "hide minor edits" nor "hide my edits" is selected, nor have I made any changes recently to my watchlist options.  Any ideas? [[User:Eric|Eric]] [[User talk:Eric|<sup>talk</sup>]] 21:47, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
:Note: I just verified that my above post is appearing on my watchlist. [[User:Eric|Eric]] [[User talk:Eric|<sup>talk</sup>]] 21:50, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

::Are any hide options enabled at [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-watchlist]]? Are you sure the page is still on your watchlist? When editing a watched page, it's possible to accidentally remove the checkmark at "Watch this page" before saving. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 22:06, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Ah, "hide bots" was enabled. As the most recent change was by a bot, changing that option just now caused the page to reappear on my watchlist. Thanks for the tip. Question: Do we know if that's the effect that hiding bot edits is supposed to have? I would assume that with bot edits hidden, the most recent non-bot edit would be displayed by default. [[User:Eric|Eric]] [[User talk:Eric|<sup>talk</sup>]] 23:17, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
::::All hide options have worked like that for as long as I know. I assume it's deliberate although it's not very practical when "Expand watchlist to show all changes, not just the most recent" is disabled at [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-watchlist]]. You are far from the first to be tricked by this. See for example [[Help talk:Watching pages#"Hide bots" actually means "Hide pages last edited by bots"?]] I would have expected a [[WP:Bug|bugzilla]] request to show the most recent non-hidden edit on watchlists, but I couldn't find one. If I haven't missed it then it seems time somebody (not me) created it. It could be a preference and there could be an indication on the watchlist when there are more recent hidden edits. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 23:55, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::Ok, thanks for the info. Maybe I'll get ambitious and submit an enhancement request. [[User:Eric|Eric]] [[User talk:Eric|<sup>talk</sup>]] 12:54, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::: It's {{phab|11790}}. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 16:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks. I created {{phab|56154}} after my (I think well-worded) search found nothing and before I saw your note. I then failed to find a way to mark 54154 as a duplicate of 9790. [[User:Eric|Eric]] [[User talk:Eric|<sup>talk</sup>]] 17:07, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

== Special:RecentChangesLinked exception ==

Hi, is it possible to make an exception from watching by {{fullurl:Special:RecentChangesLinked|target={{FULLPAGENAMEE}}&namespace=0}} with something like nonincluded tag? [[User:Dominikmatus|Dominikmatus]] ([[User talk:Dominikmatus|talk]]) 13:27, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

:{{reply to|Dominikmatus}} I've responded to your question at the [[WP:HD|Help desk]]; I suggest any further postings be there rather than here. -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 21:14, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

== Category contents summary, redux ==

:''See previous discussion at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 116#Category contents summary]]''

I have reverted the [[WP:BOLD|bold]] change brought about by the creation of:
* [[MediaWiki:Categorytree-num-categories]];
* [[MediaWiki:Categorytree-num-files]]; and
* [[MediaWiki:Categorytree-num-pages]].

As noted during the previous discussion, the visual impact of the change is massive when looking at a category with a large number of subcategories—to the point, I would argue, that the cluttered mass of text actively disrupts navigation by competing for attention with (and sometimes overwhelming) the actual subcategory titles.

I am posting this thread to initiate the third phase of [[WP:BRD]]. -- '''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Black Falcon|talk]])</sup> 04:40, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
== Problem with Notifications Box ==

I noticed that the little red Notifications Box next to my user name at the top of the page had the number "4" showing and attempted to check on what they were. But when I place my cursor over the box nothing happens at all. It seems to be totally disabled, even though it's telling me that I have 4 notifications. Everything else on the page is normal, all the other nearby links are working just fine. I even tried logging out and logging back in, just for the hell of it. Aside from wanting to get it working again, I'd also like to know, is there another way to see my notifications in the meantime? [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 19:18, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
:As a workaround, you can also see your notifications at [[Special:Notifications]]. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 20:06, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks, John! [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 22:36, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
:''But when I place my cursor over the box nothing happens at all.'' Wikipedia is pretty oldschool when it comes to its user interface; you actually have to ''click'' the box to make the notifications appear. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span>]] ([[User talk:Edokter|<span style="color:#080">talk</span>]]) — </span> 22:22, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
::Hah hah - I'm pretty old school, too! To be absolutely clear: Even though the button showed no signs of "life" (iow, the cursor arrow did not change to a hand, as it does for every other button/link I hover over) I of course tried to click on it repeatedly. The button simply has no functionality whatsoever. Btw, up until now it actually DID display a sort of preview if I hovered over it - much like what happens when you hover on a citation number in an article. [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 22:33, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Which browser is this about? If this was Firefox I'd recommend to try safe mode and a fresh profile and check if the problem still happens... --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 16:27, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

== Disable JS/CSS highlighting and toolbar ==

Hi. When you edit a javascript or CSS page, there's a toolbar above the editing window and the window itself has syntax highlighting enabled. Is there a way to disable these? I have the editing toolbar disabled already in my preferences but in JS/CSS pages it still shows up. [[User:Jafeluv|Jafeluv]] ([[User talk:Jafeluv|talk]]) 05:42, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:Press the [[File:CodeEditor deactivation button.png]] button on the left, that should disable it for you, permanently (according to the bottom of [[m:CodeEditor]]). –[[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 06:36, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
::I missed this myself some time back - is there a more obvious redesign that could be applied to this .png?  For example, something like [[File:Reset_button.svg|10px]]? [[User:Wnt|Wnt]] ([[User talk:Wnt|talk]]) 15:12, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:::I missed it too. Intuitively the current graphic should indicate a button that inserts comments. I got lucky in randomly clicking it out of curiosity. A "power" type button like Wnt suggests might be better. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 19:13, 15 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
::Thanks! I thought that was some sort of an "add comment" button. [[User:Jafeluv|Jafeluv]] ([[User talk:Jafeluv|talk]]) 19:10, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Yes, the logic of choosing the <code>/*</code> characters escapes me. I did know what it was for though, because it's the same editor interface that's been used for modules right from the start. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 20:12, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
::Hmm, is there a way to disable this directly in JS code? Apparently the toggle button is wiki-specific, so you'd have to go and click to disable it separately in every project... [[User:Jafeluv|Jafeluv]] ([[User talk:Jafeluv|talk]]) 08:19, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

== Something odd on WP talk:WikiProject United States ==

At [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States|Wikipedia talk:WPUS]], an editor posted a thread more than half an hour ago - it can be seen on the recent history - but it is not visible on the page. I experimented with posting  a test below that, by using the "New Section" tab at the top, and that didn't show up either.  Maybe it's something strange in the posting right above it.Arizona Supreme Court Vice Chief Justice W. Scott Bales. That one was autosigned by a bot, but the autosign doesn't appear there either. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 22:01, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:Broken markup [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AWikiProject_United_States&diff=573073961&oldid=573073329 fixed] [[User:Werieth|Werieth]] ([[User talk:Werieth|talk]]) 22:05, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks so much. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 12:49, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

== Blank page at Hindi Wikipedia ==

{{tracked|40587}}
I have a very simple page at [[:hi:User:Johnuniq/sandbox]] where the wikitext is a preamble, then a single convert template, then a postamble. The page is blank! Inspecting the html source shows none of the expected wikitext. I don't see any timeout or other indication of an error.

Using [[:hi:Special:ExpandTemplates]] to expand the template (<code><nowiki>{{convert|-10|C|F}}</nowiki></code>) yields "−10&nbsp;°से. (14&nbsp;°फ़ै.)" and doing a preview after pasting that text into the sandbox shows the page as expected.

The template does not need to be fixed because it will be replaced with a module. I'm just curious about what might cause a page to be blank, with no indication of a reason that I can see. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 06:53, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
:Tracing through the various subtemplates, I find that the problem is within [[:hi:Template:Convert/LoffAonDbSoffT]]. This begins with
::<code><nowiki>{{formatnum:{{convert/-{{#expr:{{{1}}}<0}}|{{{1}}}}}}}</nowiki></code>
:and since <code><nowiki>{{{1}}}</nowiki></code> was replaced with -10 (the Celsius value to be converted), what we have here is
::<code><nowiki>{{formatnum:{{convert/-{{#expr:-10<0}}|-10}}}}</nowiki></code> → <code><nowiki>{{formatnum:{{convert/-1|-10}}}}</nowiki></code>
:Now <code><nowiki>{{convert/-1|-10}}</nowiki></code> → -10 and <code><nowiki>{{formatnum:-10}}</nowiki></code> → -10 but <code><nowiki>{{formatnum:{{convert/-1|-10}}}}</nowiki></code> gives the blank page. So, it's something to do with <code><nowiki>{{formatnum:}}</nowiki></code> in combination with [[:hi:Template:Convert/-1]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 09:22, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks for the pain of doing that. I took it a little bit further, and have now edited [[:hi:User:Johnuniq/sandbox]] to replace the template with "<code><nowiki>{{formatnum:−1}}</nowiki></code>" (with a Unicode minus), and ''that'' blanks the page! That's beginning to sound like a MediaWiki bug which should be reported?
::I was curious about the matter because it happened at [[:bn:]] as well. I also noticed (at bn.wiki and hi.wiki) that their ExpandTemplates sometimes gives a certain output that is quite different from what appears when a normal page is rendered. I've spent enought time on it, but for anyone interested, one example is <code><nowiki>{{convert|0|–|4|C|F}}</nowiki></code> [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 11:43, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Bug #[[bugzilla:40587|40587]] (and related bugs). - [[User:Jarry1250|Jarry1250]]&nbsp;<sup>[''[[User_talk:Jarry1250|Vacation]] [[Special:Contributions/Jarry1250|needed]]'']</sup> 12:20, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

== Probable sumperimpose bug ==

{{resolved}}
I think I've found a bug in superimpose

See the map of sites at [[List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_Oceania]]

The site in the far South West should be Heard and MacDonald Islands.

The alt text at that point is correct, but the link is to 
Henderson_Island_(Pitcairn_Islands) instead.

If you look at the source for the map, which uses superimpose, 

;Map of sites
<nowiki>{{Superimpose2</nowiki>
...

the lines near that point are:

<pre>
|float10_caption = Hawaiʻi Volcanoes National Park |link10 = Hawaiʻi Volcanoes National Park |x10 = 568 |y10 = 52
|float11_caption = Heard and McDonald Islands |link11 = Heard Island and McDonald Islands |x11 = 26 |y11 = 387
|float12_caption = Henderson Island |link12 = Henderson Island (Pitcairn Islands) |x12 = 687 |y12 = 237
</pre>

Perhaps the apostrophes in Hawai'i are confusing where the links should go.

Only checked on OS X, but the behaviour appears in firefox, safari and chrome <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Newystats|Newystats]] ([[User talk:Newystats|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Newystats|contribs]]) 05:51, 16 September 2013‎</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

:This was an error with the Superimpose2 template. I've fixed it [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Template:Superimpose2&diff=573142469&oldid=491347796 here]. <small>(Also, I modified your material above, to avoid any issues with display.)</small> <span style="white-space:nowrap; text-shadow:gray 5px 3px 1px;">— [[User:Huntster|Huntster]] <small>([[User talk:Huntster|t]] [[Special:Emailuser/Huntster|@]] [[Special:Contributions/Huntster|c]])</small></span> 11:30, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

== Any technical way to revert hundreds of page moves? ==

I've already asked at [[Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Tasks]] in case that might work. [[Special:Contributions/Coreyemotela]] moved HIV/AIDS titles to HIV-AIDS titles. [[User:Biosthmors|Biosthmors]] ([[User talk:Biosthmors|talk]]) <small>pls [[Wikipedia:Notifications#Features|notify]] me (i.e. {{[[Template:U|U]]}}) when u sign ur reply, thx</small> 11:18, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
:The discussions regarding this seem to be at [[WT:MED#Moving all the HIV/AIDS articles to HIV-AIDS titles?]] and [[User talk:Coreyemotela#Move]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 13:39, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

== Slowdowns ==

For the last several days I've been experiencing intermittent but frequent slowdowns. Show preview, Save page, refreshing pages, etc., often take much longer than normal to resolve. Is anyone aware of this, looking into it maybe?--[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] ([[User talk:Bbb23|talk]]) 01:01, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
:For the last while it's been ''painfully'' slow. My browser (Firefox) keeps showing in its status bar "Transferring data from bits.wikimedia.org". Sometimes I can wait up to a full minute (I didn't clock it) before it completely resolves. Very hard to get any work done.--[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] ([[User talk:Bbb23|talk]]) 01:43, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
:Agreed. I'm ''constantly'' waiting for "bits.wikimedia.org" to catch up with Wikipedia (usually while grabbing tiny icons or irrelevant crap like the WMF logo). And unlike you, I've been experiencing this for months, if not years. Can someone ''please'' explain the lag experienced through "bits," because at this point I'm ready to just tell Firefox to block all images from the domain. <span style="border:1px solid;border-radius:1.5em 0;"><span style="background-color:#F82;border-radius:1.5em 0 0;">   [[Special:Contributions/DKqwerty|<span style="color:#FFF;">DK</span>]]</span>[[User:DKqwerty/T|<span style="color:#D60;">qwerty</span>]]   </span> 02:15, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
:I agree. Sometimes I need to wait so long that I ''literally'' have time to take two entire bites of my burrito. I've also been looking out my window more to see that terrible natural light my eyes have come to be allergic to. This is unacceptable. But no seriously, I've noticed the slowdowns too. It's not quite intolerable for me, just an intermittent annoyance. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 03:57, 17 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
== Colored underlining ==

Anyone know if it's possible to have underlined characters, like <u>this</u> or perhaps rather like {{du|this}}, and to apply some color to the underlining, without coloring the actual characters? (Might be a solution to the problem discussed here: [[Talk:Chinese classifier#Underlining]].) [[User:W. P. Uzer|W. P. Uzer]] ([[User talk:W. P. Uzer|talk]]) 06:57, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
:Could do it like: <span style="border-bottom:2px solid #00f;">foo</span> or (more semantically) <span style="text-decoration:underline;color:#00f"><span style="color:#000">bar</span></span>. --[[User:Splarka|Splarka]] ([[User_talk:Splarka|rant]]) 07:26, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
::Excellent, thank you for your lightning response! [[User:W. P. Uzer|W. P. Uzer]] ([[User talk:W. P. Uzer|talk]]) 07:28, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
:::In addition, if you're unfamiliar with hexadecimal colors (i.e. "{{mono|#xx}}" values for colors), you may want to peruse [[Web colors]] before implementing. If you have any questions, feel free to ask them on [[User Talk:DKqwerty|my talk page]]. Happy editing! <span style="border:1px solid;border-radius:1.5em 0;"><span style="background-color:#F82;border-radius:1.5em 0 0;">   [[Special:Contributions/DKqwerty|<span style="color:#FFF;">DK</span>]]</span>[[User:DKqwerty/T|<span style="color:#D60;">qwerty</span>]]   </span> 07:38, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
::::Using <code>border-bottom</code> or <code>text-decoration</code> will be semantically null. Per [[underline]]: "In Chinese, the underline is a punctuation mark for proper names". The HTML5 specification redefined the underline markup {{tag|u}} as "The {{tag|u|o}} element represents a span of text with an unarticulated, though explicitly rendered, non-textual annotation, such as labeling the text as being a proper name in Chinese text (a Chinese proper name mark), or labeling the text as being misspelt."[http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-u-element] So there is no need to create a new convention where a standard already exists. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 09:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::But, should we underline Chinese nouns when writing in English? Neither [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese)]] nor [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/China-related articles]] cover this. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 09:18, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::Splarka's second suggestion may be simplified to <u style="color:#00f"><span style="color:#000">bar</span></u> which brings in the {{tag|u|o}} element per Gadget850. If the [http://www.w3.org/TR/css-text-decor-3/ CSS Text Decoration Module Level 3] becomes a full W3C Recommendation, and the browser vendors implement it, you'll be able to put <u style="text-decoration-color: #00f;">bar</u> which will produce a coloured underline on browsers that support it, but will default to underline in the text colour. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 09:31, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Looking at [[Chinese classifier]] a bit deeper, I have no idea what the underlines and double underlines are trying to convey. They don't look like proper names. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]]'''''<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|&nbsp;''talk'']]</sup></span> 10:31, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::::They're trying to provide a visible link between a particular character in the Chinese text, (sometimes) a particular word in the [[pinyin]] (phonetic) representation of that text, and a particular element in the English "translation" of that text. They're there just for the purpose of grammatical explanation, and are not intended to correspond to any underlining that would be used in Chinese (which is another reason, I suppose, for doing it in color, and for using solid or double underlining - we want people to realize that the underline is not a part of the Chinese text itself). [[User:W. P. Uzer|W. P. Uzer]] ([[User talk:W. P. Uzer|talk]]) 19:15, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::Gadget850: I've never actually seen underlining for proper nouns in contemporary Chinese text (news, articles, blogs, etc.). And the Wikipedia article you pulled that from doesn't have a citation for it. Are you sure underlining still has that meaning in Chinese? It's possible that I've missed something, but otherwise I would guess that usage of underlining is archaic. <b class="IPA">[[Special:Contributions/Rjanag|r<span style="color: #8B0000">ʨ</span>anaɢ]]</b>&nbsp;([[User talk:Rjanag|talk]]) 14:50, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

== Why does citation needed exist? ==

When would it be appropriate to add this tag to a source-less or badly sourced statement? If a reference does not meet some kind of standard why would it's claim me marked this way instead of the statement being deleted?  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:CensoredScribe|CensoredScribe]] ([[User talk:CensoredScribe|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CensoredScribe|contribs]]) 19:41, 16 September 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:From the documentation:
::{{tlx|citation needed}} is a [[Wikipedia:Template messages|template]] used to identify claims in articles, particularly if questionable, that need a [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|citation]] to a [[WP:Reliable sources|reliable source]].
:There are times when [[Template:Citation needed#When not to use this template|it is not appropriate]]; these include dubious unsourced claims concerning [[WP:BLP|living persons]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 21:01, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
::{{reply to|CensoredScribe}} It is NOT Wikipedia's policy that all unsourced statements be deleted. If it were, then half or more of the content in the encyclopedia would be gone, the vast majority of which would in fact be accurate - just not with a supporting source.

::It is also NOT Wikipedia policy that all unsourced statements be marked as such. That would require a huge amount of time, and it would add little, if any, value to the encyclopedia - because when a statement has no source, that's obvious.

::In short, {{tl|cn}} is typically used for statements that are ''questionable'', or are likely to be questioned. It's not used for statements that are 99% likely to be correct (that's a waste of time), and it's not used for statements that are almost certainly incorrect (those should be deleted; let someone who wants to put the information back be the one to provide a source). And it's normally ''not'' used in articles about living people, as noted above, because [[WP:BLP|standards for such articles are different]]. Unsourced or poorly sourced text in biographical articles should be ''deleted'' if that text is at all contentious/controversial. 

:: And finally, while your question is a good one, it's not a ''technical'' one. Non-technical questions are best asked at [[WP:HD|the Help desk]]. -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 02:55, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you John Broughton; I'm glad to know about these help pages and wikipedia's sourcing policy. [[User:CensoredScribe|CensoredScribe]] ([[User talk:CensoredScribe|talk]]) 15:56, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

== Emailing all editors on wikipedia or another wiki ==

Hypothetically is it possible to email ALL editors who have an email on wikipedia or another wiki? Is there an extension that lets you do this?  Is there a special page that lets you do this?

Please - I KNOW it is not allowed on wikipedia.  Please - This is NOT a discussion about wikipedia rules.  This is a technical discussion. I am more interested in doing this on a private wiki.

Thoughts?

Thank you! [[User:Igottheconch|Igottheconch]] ([[User talk:Igottheconch|talk]]) 09:30, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
:In ''theory'', yes, see [[mw:Extension:EmailPage]]; you would email to a suitable group of users. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 10:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

:(edit conflict) I made some searches at [[:mw:]] and found [[:mw:Extension:EmailPage]]. If $wgEmailPageAllowAllUsers is set to true then you can apparently mail a rendered HTML page to all users. EmailPage is not installed here. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 10:41, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
::you guys are incredible! thank you. I was just interested if wikipedia has that capability, but you saved me the time of looking myself on mediawiki! barnstars for both of you! [[User:Igottheconch|Igottheconch]] ([[User talk:Igottheconch|talk]]) 15:20, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
I misread this in my watchlist as "eliminating all editors on Wikipedia", and got excited. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 15:45, 17 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
:<small> It's simple, you just<nowiki> [insert unpopular WMF/ArbCom/Admin/Jimbo decision here]</nowiki> [[User:MChesterMC|MChesterMC]] ([[User talk:MChesterMC|talk]]) 15:52, 17 September 2013 (UTC)</small>
::<small>Just rangeblock 1.0.0.0/0 [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 16:00, 17 September 2013 (UTC)</small>
:::<small>I think that would solve a LOT of our problems. <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 17:01, 17 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span></small>

== Exporting redirects to sections ==

Take a look at [[Special:Export/Western zone]] for an example. The redirect goes to a section of the article, but the <code>title</code> attribute of the <code>redirect</code> element doesn't reflect that. Is this intended behaviour (and so getting the full article + section name requires parsing the article body)? If so, would it be possible to add an optional <code>section</code> attribute to the element? [[User:KleptomaniacViolet|KleptomaniacViolet]] ([[User talk:KleptomaniacViolet|talk]]) 11:32, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
: Possibly; you should [[WP:BUG|file a bug]] about this. (There is quite a lot of various ones reported[https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=redir%20section%7Canchor], but it seems that nothing about this particular issue.) [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 16:46, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
::https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_report_a_bug also explains how to create a bug report. --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 19:32, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

== Disabling VE in common.js and common.css ==

It has [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:KumiokoCleanStart#Re:_VisualEditor_and_its_user_interface_exposure been noted] that the files required to implement the consensus at [[Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Default State RFC]] are actually under control of the Wikipedia community, and that we are not reliant upon WMF to implement the changes. I'm not going to go do this cowboy style without discussion, but what I do need is to actually have a working solution in hand to ''discuss''. The goal is to change common.js so that VE is not displayed to IPs, and to forcibly set the preference for all new accounts to disable.

I tried creating a private common.js that replaced 

 if ( mw.user.options.values['visualeditor-enable'] === undefined ) {
     mw.user.options.set( 'visualeditor-enable', 1 );
 }

with

 if (autoconfirmed() === 0)
  {
    mw.user.options.set('visualeditor-enable',0);
  }
 
 function autoconfirmed()
  {
   var userGroups = mw.config.get( 'wgUserGroups' );
   if ( userGroups ) 
    {
      for ( var i = 0; i < userGroups.length; i++ )
       {
         if ( userGroups[i] === 'autoconfirmed' )
          {
           return(1);
          }
       }
    }
   return(0);
  }

It didn't behave as expected. It disabled VE on my autoconfirmed account (which it should not have) and did so quite insistently. For that particular browser, no amount of common.js deletion, cache clearing, logging in and out, browser restarting, or preference clearing and setting will reenable VE. That would be essentially sabotaging VE, and that's not what I have in mind.

MZMcBride has suggested a common.css implementation, but it doesn't actually set the preference. Once the account hits 10 edits, VE magically switches itself on..

LegoTKM has suggested that I "wrap stuff in <code>mw.loader.using('mediawiki.user', function() { stuff; });</code>" but I'm not quite sure how to accomplish that.

Any suggestions as to how to fix my base code?&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 21:50, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
:You can use [http://api.jquery.com/jQuery.inArray/ jQuery's inArray() function] instead of writing autoconfirmed() by hand, or you could use array.indexOf(), which isn't present in older browsers. I don't really want to comment on the rest right now. [[User:PiRSquared17|<b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr<sup>2</sup></b>]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">'''t'''</i>]] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">'''c'''</i>]]) 22:24, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
::Those would be just code-tidying changes, wouldn't they? No actual change in operation?&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 22:41, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Yes. See [[mw:ResourceLoader/Default modules]] for info on mw.loader.using (what Legoktm suggested). {{ping|MZMcBride}} can you give an example of CSS that could be used to do this? Is there some way to disable VE/contentEditable using that? [[User:PiRSquared17|<b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr<sup>2</sup></b>]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">'''t'''</i>]] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">'''c'''</i>]]) 22:47, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

::::His suggestion (in the link above) was
<syntaxhighlight lang="javascript">
/* Hide VisualEditor for anons and new users */
if ( mw.config.get( 'wgUserName' ) == null || mw.config.get( 'wgUserEditCount' ) < 10 ) {
    appendCSS('li#ca-ve-edit, \
               .mw-editsection .mw-editsection-divider, \
               .mw-editsection .mw-editsection-visualeditor \
               { display: none; }');
}
</syntaxhighlight>
::::As I said, it works, but doesn't implement the change from the RFC to switch the preference to "off" for new users. It disables it for their first 10 edits and then it magically pops on.
::::What I'm proposing doing here is likely to be unpopular in certain quarters. I want to be able to say in good faith that the changes come as close as technically possible to implementing the consensus from the RFC.&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 22:52, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
: Doing mw.user.options.set will not actually save the new value in the database; it will only be active inside the tab/window in which it was set until it is closed. To actually save the new value, you need something what [[MediaWiki:Gadget-oldeditor.js]] does to disable itself (the bottom part of the code). [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 23:06, 17 September 2013 (UTC) (Oh btw, and obviously you can't set options for anonymous users, so bear that in mind.) [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 23:10, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
::Ah, so something more like
<syntaxhighlight lang="javascript">
if (autoconfirmed() === 0)
  {
    mw.user.options.set('visualeditor-enable',0);
    if ( mw.config.get( 'wgUserName' ) != null )
     {
      mw.loader.using('mediawiki.api', function () {
          var api = new mw.Api();
          api.get({ action: 'tokens', type: 'options' }).done(function (json) {
                  api.post({
                          action: 'options',
                          change: 'visualeditor-betatempdisable=1',
                          token: json.tokens.optionstoken
                  });
          });
     }
   }
 
 function autoconfirmed()
  {
   var userGroups = mw.config.get( 'wgUserGroups' );
   if ( userGroups ) 
    {
      for ( var i = 0; i < userGroups.length; i++ )
       {
         if ( userGroups[i] === 'autoconfirmed' )
          {
           return(1);
          }
       }
    }
   return(0);
  }

</syntaxhighlight>
::&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 23:23, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
:::I believe so, but you forgot ')' after '}'. [[User:PiRSquared17|<b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr<sup>2</sup></b>]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">'''t'''</i>]] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|<i style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">'''c'''</i>]]) 23:43, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

== Merging contributions from older accounts ==

I have a question regarding former accounts. Before my current username, I had two usernames, [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?limit=50&tagfilter=&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=Boricano75&namespace=&tagfilter=&year=2013&month=-1 Boricano75] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?limit=50&tagfilter=&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=Borincano75&namespace=&tagfilter=&year=2013&month=-1 Borincano75] (with an 'n'). I incorrectly used a cut-and-paste move when I changed to this username and I want to know if there's a way to get the older contributions to my current account. [[User:Magiciandude|Erick]] ([[User talk:Magiciandude|talk]]) 22:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

:This cannot be done. See [[Wikipedia:Changing attribution for an edit]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 23:17, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
== Login issues ==

*Just now, I had to try three times to log in. (FF22, cache always cleared). The first time, it went through the usual login process from the Main Page, but then when it went back to the main page from the login page, it wasn't logged in, even after refreshing. On the second try, I got a login error - but was now logged in - but ''only'' on the https version of en.wikipedia, ''not'' on the http version. A third try got me logged in 'properly'. - [[User:The Bushranger|The Bushranger]] <sub>[[User talk:The Bushranger|<span style="color:maroon;">One ping only</span>]]</sub> 18:29, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
:Weird. There are two bug reports in https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org about unintended redirects after logging in, but this sounds different. Wondering if you could reproduce this, but I can understand that's probably nothing you want to try. :) Also note that Firefox 22 became unsupported on August 6, 2013. --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 16:37, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

== Looking for a tool ==

Is there any toolserver app that could be used to compare two page histories and list the common editors? <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 21:17, 17 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
: Yes, see [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/SPI/Administrators_instructions#Useful_SPI_scripts_and_tools]]. [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 23:09, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks -- however those seem to take users and list their common pages, rather than take pages and list the common users. Is there something that does the latter? <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 23:34, 17 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
:::From Betacommand (via IRC): "I am working on a tool for [y'all], should be done within 48 hours." [[User:Writ Keeper|Writ&nbsp;Keeper]]&nbsp;[[User Talk: Writ Keeper|&#9863;]][[Special:Contributions/Writ_Keeper|&#9812;]] 02:23, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
::::Awesome, thanks (both of you :)! <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 06:07, 18 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
::::: Relaying from IRC - "Betacommand: can you drop a note @https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29#Looking_for_a_tool and point them to http://tools.wmflabs.org/betacommand-dev/article_intersection.html" [[User:Sfan00 IMG|Sfan00 IMG]] ([[User talk:Sfan00 IMG|talk]]) 16:18, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::: That's great! I'd just suggest adding a total count but it's not detrimental. Thanks for the notification, Sfan00 IMG, and please relay my sincere thanks to Betacommand for making this! <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 16:25, 18 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>
:::::: Relaying: "Betacommand: can you drop another note, have Equazcion take another look, if there are any other features that are wanted (IE ignoring bots or whatever) just let me know."[[User:Sfan00 IMG|Sfan00 IMG]] ([[User talk:Sfan00 IMG|talk]]) 16:34, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::: It seems to be just about perfect, as far as I'm concerned :) Thank you once again! <span style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">[[User:Equazcion|<span style="color:#009;">equazcion</span>]] <span style="font-size:75%">[[User talk:Equazcion|<sup>(<span style="color:#007BA7">talk</span>)</sup>]]</span> 20:43, 18 Sep 2013 (UTC)</span>